Nightwish was, is and forever will be my favorite band. They introduced me to metal and I don't think anything will manage to capture the magic of those first albums.
The Symphonic Metal band Xandria (founded in 1994) until today had five different female leadsingers. So the "only" three in Nightwish are not so special. In my opinion the biggest loss for Nightwish is Marko. Especially Floor is really missing him, you can feel this when you listen to interviews with her after Marko has left. She never had problems with giving him the lead from time to time, she even seemed to enjoy this (watch "The Islander" from Tampere 2015, you can see the joy on her face). Concerning Tarja: All four male band members signed the open letter, not only Tuomas, and all four had been very angry especially about the (negatively felt) influence of Tarja's husband (and very sad at the same time). You can hear this clearly in the song "Master Passion Greed". I am sure Tuomas is not a simple person to handle, most persons being so creative and sensitive are not. But to make him the scapegoat for all that went wrong within the band in my opinion is not right. For this there always have to be two persons.
Agree with all points. = ) Marko is a really tough loss. Appreciate the perspective and additional details. Unfortunately Xandria is rarely on the radar. I think I have only gotten one of their albums.
I stumbled upon Nightwish purely by chance at the beginning of the Covid lockdown. As an avid metalhead (Classic) i was so amazed by this genre of music and totally gobsmacked by the goddess like angel named Floor Jansen.. No other band has affected me like Nightwish and Floor. Great clip
I found Nightwish by accident about 18 months ago and my musical life has not been the same. One of my all time favorite groups was Renaissance a rock, jazz, classical music group from the 70's. They were very much Nightwish of their time including Annie Haslam their 5 octave operatic trained singer. I tried other symphonic metal bands and found them lacking. I finally figured out why. Other bands perform metal songs in a symphonic manor. Nightwish starts with a symphony and performs it in a metal manor. Waiting to hear their new album performed live.
Fascinating. I'm very intrigued. I have not heard of Renaissance. Super excited to check them out. Do you recommend a go to album to start with? Also completely agree. Though I don't know all the technical understanding or obviously the behind the scenes. But listening to them, it really does sound like you are right and we do know (at least later on that) Tuomas would first compose the orchestration piece before continuing. I think its also why they have been a big fan of showcasing that version on all their albums these days to showcase that. Thanks for sharing this perspective and again thanks for introducing a new band!
Imho the greatest contribution to 'making metal beautiful' was done by Anneke van Giersbergen when she and The Gathering produced Mandylion. This album in itself and their live performances already contributed a ton. Yet, the way their melodic, melancholic soundscapes and especially Anneke's vocal performance and presence influenced many others in the scene, including the likes of Tuomas Holopainen and Floor Jansen, really makes them earn that honour.
Definitely. I'm looking forward to showcasing more of Anneke & The Gathering. Even in the 90's it felt like The Gathering were somewhat overlooked and its shame. They were absolutely influential. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
While I agree that Anneke van Giersbergen and The Gathering played a huge role in making metal beautiful, I'd say Nightwish has certainly earned a spot near the top of that list as well. From their early years, they've consistently contributed to shaping the genre, and their influence only continues to grow. When you look at metal as a whole, Nightwish stands out for showing the world that metal isn't just about the dark, aggressive stereotypes like 'satanic black metal'-they've opened the door to a more melodic, symphonic, and emotional side of the genre. Their ability to connect with thousands of fans over the years has made them a true force in redefining what metal can be.
Lacrimosa definitely also needs to be mentioned in this context. It's mostly live stuff, shoddily-produced demo tapes and a couple of concept singles at that time but damn you can't ignore stuff like Alleine zu Zweit.
Seeing NW witch Tarja live was one of the most magical moments in my entire life as a metalhead. Yeah, there are bands (including recent NW) who may come close, but not close enough :)
The inescapable bottom line is that Tuomas's music is terrific, no matter who sings it. I'm on Team Floor, but there are songs that I think Tarja did best, and a few that Anette owned completely. (Not surprising, given that Tuomas composed songs with each of their voices in mind.)
One of the underrated qualities of Tuomas is that he has taken the time to adjust with each singer. Mad respect for that. So many people in any industry tend to be stubborn towards "their way" and never changes. He was willing to take the time to learn what the strengths and interests each of them (along with all the members) were.
Tuomas' first demos didn't have a female singer. After Tuomas had written the first songs, he asked Empuu to help him with the recordings. He knew Empuu from their time together in the school jazz band (it's understandable that Tuomas later released a jazz song with "Slow, Love, Slow"). After the first recordings, they agreed that the songs didn't work as instrumentals or with Tuomas as the singer. Together they asked another ex-member of the jazz band for help: Tarja. Neither of them knew that Tarja had become an opera fan and were surprised when they recorded. In order not to negatively affect her voice, Tarja refused to sing anything other than classical music. Tuomas had to rewrite his songs and the Nightwish sound was created. There is one song where Tuomas himself can still be heard. Later, Troy took over the vocals of such songs: Nightwish - The Carpenter (OFFICIAL VIDEO) This structure remained for a long time: Tuomas writes the songs, the instrumentalists come later and only at the end did Tarja and Anette join. Floor is already there when Tuomas introduces the songs. Tuomas was only a live musician in the black metal band Darkwoods My Betrothed until 1998. After that, the band became inactive, but they stayed in touch. It wasn't until 2020 that they released something again and Tuomas became a member from then on. He emphasizes that he was never and is never a composer there. Sami didn't have to leave the band because of creative differences, but because he was drunk on stage several times. Nightwish drinks alcohol on stage, but the others know their limits for a good show. There is a video where Marko, as the bassist of Synergie, mimics the drunk Sami. Anette was part of an audition of 9 singers. Because Nightwish were in the pop charts at the time, Tuomas probably wanted a pop singer like with Within Temptation. Choosing Anette was a mistake, and not just because of what happened later. Another candidate was Elize Ryd, who later became a well-known singer with Amaranth and a Nightwish singer for one night. Nightwish rejected her because of her inexperience. Officially, everyone decided on the singer together. But Tuomas makes the sound. If he says no, there will be no more Nightwish. Pregnancy and children should not be a problem for Nightwish. Floor had two children during her time with Nightwish and took the first on tour with her. She tours solo with the second because Nightwish doesn't tour: NIGHTWISH - Lead Vocalist Candidates in 2006 The Album Once with Tarja was more successful than Anette's two albums. The singles and album chart positions were better. In absolute numbers, it sold better. With Anette they lost their place on mainstream radio and sales and chart positions dropped again. (To be fair, they dropped for all bands. Streaming killed sales. The same thing would probably have happened with Tarja. With Floor they have stabilized again. They will probably not get back into the pop charts. Tuomas does not compose in a radio-friendly way.) What we know about Anette's dismissal is that she did not want to tour Australia because of her pregnancy and birth. The band was able to persuade her to accept a guest singer. But she turned down the suggested singer: Floor Jansen. According to an interview, she feared being replaced by the experienced Floor (they had disappeared from mainstream radio at the time). The band probably insisted on the concerts because the Nightwish film had not yet premiered. Nobody knew whether they would recoup the production costs. Forgoing the income from concerts was not an option. When Anette get a high fever, the band apparently didn't want to continue the tour with a sick pregnant woman. They also booked Floor for the South America tour. The break must have come when Anette found out about it. What was intended as a precaution for mother and child was seen as a termination by Anette. At this point, the band was close to breaking up. Floor probably only had time at this point. Before that, she was too ill because of her burnout, and later her schedule would have been full. It quickly became clear that she was the ideal person for Nightwish. With her, Tarja songs appeared again on the set list that Anette couldn't sing. As an experienced songwriter, she was able to adapt the songs to her voice on her own. Tuoams later said in an interview that she had come home. Within the band, she was asked to join in the summer of 2013. It became public with the release of the Wacken DVD. The separation from Tarja was probably inevitable. She finished her classical training in 2003 and wanted to use it in the original sense. Nightwish was in demand everywhere and her schedule didn't allow it.
You are still incapable of seeing things from all perspectives since you clearly seem to be biased in favour of Tuomas, and somehow think all the disagreements in the band were somehow one-sided. Most of what you have said, especially about Anette's pregnancy and the medical complications she feared from also being sick at the time is just plain wrong. You are clearly listening to what Nightwish have had to say about it, and think everything contrary is wrong. They did not have plans to discontinue the tour because of her pregnancy - the opposite is true.
@@undead.rising I never said that anyone wanted to cancel the tour because of the pregnancy. Anette didn't want that either. Anette had agreed to a guest singer. The point of contention was who should temporarily replace Anette as a singer. According to an interview with Anette, Floor was too good for the band. She was only willing to accept a bad singer. She didn't care what that meant for the fans at the concerts. Her first thought was that the Australians would have to wait years for the next concert.
@@Mischnikvideos To make it more complete, after the gig with "Alissa White-Gluz and elize ryd" Anette wrote some nasty stuff on the internet so that was probably the "water drop that flood the bucket", and another thing; I doubt if real reasons will be named in public. i think Tuomas felt limited later on with Anette so,that also played a role ,in my opinion, it's always sad when you have to make these kind of decisions but, somebody has to make them. One more question for me ; Anette with her religious believes ,could that have played a role?
Yep! Metal with a female singer (and co-songwriter) that did not sound like the 'old school' metal also started with The Gathering in 1994. Anneke inspired almost all the younger female symphonic metal singers.
And before The Gathering, there was The 3rd And The Mortal with Kari Rueslåtten. Their demo and first album are quite nice. Kari and Anneke did a tour together abt. 10 years ago.
I would compare the Nightwish singer breakups more to Van Halen. Tarja=David Lee Roth: The charismatic, original lead vocalist that defines the band's "glory days" to many fans. Anette Olzon=Gary Cherone: Spent a short amount of time in the band and often gets overlooked, being hated by many fans. Floor Jansen=Sammy Hagar: Already a star in their own right, does not need the band to springboard their career. Wins over the fans, even if there is a vocal minority that dislikes them.
@@grafikmetal thanks, I lived with a VH expert for 26 years, so those connections were pretty easy to make. I, too, have seen the band with all 3 singers, 9 times in total.
But I agree I like the premise of this video I like the way he did it, but if you’re going to honor people on this level, at least make sure you’re saying their names correctly and I am an American and I can say everyone’s name and Nightwish correctly and that’s because I’m an actual fan
I'm a big fan of Nightwish. Been hooked since I heard Oceanborn when it was new. Discovered Theatre of Tragedy and The Gathering when they were new too. I have loved metal since I could fathom what music is, cause I got hooked on Iron Maiden when I was 5. Metal has never been "ugly"
A thought i've had for a while: We've had plenty of cases where one person holds creative control over the band and is seen as the heart & soul of it. From John Fogerty to Bruce Springsteen to Billy Corgan & Trent Reznor...and Tuomas is clearly part of that tradition. But do you notice one difference there? All of the other people i just mentioned were the vocalists of their bands, while Tuomas obviously is not. i think that's made it more difficult for him to occupy that same kind of space in the public's mind, as you can see from how much of the Nightwish fan discourse revolves around pitting the singers against each other. It's Floor who gets most of the interviews and all the attention from the UA-cam react channels, and that has to make for an unusual dynamic.
Absolutely. It is a key aspect to what makes Tuomas different from many of the other creative band leads. It's far more common for the lead to also take the lead of the public eye. Theoretically it might put more pressure with the band itself, but it does help with the music though as it places less distractions on to him as often times the hardest aspect of all entertainment is dealing with the public. Most artist just want to be able to focus on the art itself and where as Tuomas would be the first to say things haven't always been easy, I do think he has enjoyed a lil less attention than he would compared to many of the others you mentioned and more.
Nightwish is among and has been my favorite and influential metal bands. The themes of and what Tuomas says of escapism resonates really well with me as I'm an escapist too. But other than that, the songs, performances and essence are what's inspiring and can't be denied. This can show metal can be melodic, poetic, majestic and fantastical storytelling or expression of yearning for something that was lost or somewhere far.
I would not say that Annette was dropped for "no reason". She had gotten sick and did not want to strain her voice. There was a video/movie about the "on the road" time. Floor had joined during that time, when other singers had to cover for Annette, such as Elise Rydd and Alissa White Glutz (while she likes to growl, she can actually sing pretty, too).
I think there was a bit more to it than that. Anette didn't think the band should perform at all without her on the stage. The band, obviously, thought otherwise.
Tarja was a professional super model so yeah,yeah Tarja era was sick though but no regret with Floor either. Annette is awesome as well her era was fun and poppy vib almost. Was this crazy era of major genre mixing and stil one of teh most popular albums as well. All three singers were amazing in their own right.
Annette is still loved and supported by the community, I can't fault Toumas if I was running Nightwish I would of hired Nightwish as well. Floor is amazing I want Anette to be successful as well but Floor did deserve a spotlight, without Nightwish Annette would of never been discovered, I also would not have some of my favorite songs of al time. Like Slow Love or Follow Me with Pain.
It's always nice when bands stay together. But there are a few times like Nightwish when it kinda wound up creating an even more interesting catalog. I agree. Great things about each.
Symphonic Metal is older than Nightwish. Celtic Frost experimented with it back in the late eighties, and the Swedish band Therion delwed into it in the mid nineties, to name a few.
Absolutely. Can't wait to showcase the rest of Symphonic Metal. This was just a narrowed down storyline. Both of those bands are immensely important. Especially Celtic Frost. Their aren't too many bands more valuable to so many realms of metal than them.
@@grafikmetal Also, it seems criminal not mentioning Stratovarius, the other gargantuan Finnish power/simphonic metal band that started in the 80s and exploded in the 90s. Tuomas himself said they were his biggest influence. And it definetely shows on their music.
@@jptrrs @jpdemer5 I agree with both of you. I promise to do an episode on the entire realm of Symphonic Metal (and the many other bands). I actually will be kicking off the genre series soon (Just thinking about it though is exhausting with about 400 episodes planned. haha.) This episode was a lil bit more a specific focus. But I def agree.
He is special. Sometimes I don't even think he gets as much credit as he deserves. But that also may have worked in his favor. Sometimes it's not so good to get TOO much attention.
There were lots of musicians in my group of friends in the 90's -- metalheads in death metal/grindcore bands. Of those, a few of them had female singers who used harsh guttural vocals. What kills me is how initially everyone is impressed by women like Tati from Jinjer or Alissa from AE but then eventually, they start to post questions like why doesn't this girl ever sing clean? You just can't win...
One word, one band and you dont need anything else-LOVEBITES. Nightwish also with Floor is just on another level too. Respect. I cant find any other metal band on that level like these two, at least in my opinion
I'll def be doing an episode on Lovebites in the future.⭐They are growing rapidly. But I do wonder how big though they can get cause I do think Asami's high pitch might limit their overall range. But they are highly skilled and electric.
I was a huge Maiden fan but remember liking Heart as a teenager in the 80's, probably mostly because they looked beautiful. Lita Ford was really cool too.
Good work mate. Nice and insightful video. I 'run into' Nightwish when they released Oceanborn and was Blown away when their first live vhs came out. Tarja was a direct channel for the Goddess to do her work.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it and have been enjoying it over the years. As someone who has appeared to be enjoying them for awhile, very curious your thoughts on how you would rank their albums?
@@grafikmetal Wishmaster, Oceanborn and Once are for me the top ones. Didn't follow them so closely after the departure of Tarja although I will still listen to their tunes once in a while.
I listened right to the end but not because I wanted to know who you thought was the best singer. It was because your information was most interesting.
I’ve seen/met Nightwish twice; and yes, Theatre of Tragedy is amazing with “Aegis” being one of those rare, rare albums where the ENTIRE album is good. I also recommend “Goodmorning Restrained” by Magna Carta Cartel; I’ve listened to that album sooooo many times, start to finish. Scandinavian metal is the Best!! (JMHO) Good journey to you fellow traveler. 🤘😎🤘
But Nightwish lyrics... Amazing... Tuomas in one word - genius. Floor is so versatile singer with GRANDE stamina. She can do everything... Emppu is a decent guitarist who knows what he wants and how to do it. Troy brought a revolution in arrangements. His pipes sound awesome. I miss Marko and Jukka.
Within Temptation i also liked at the Beginning. And there was Love Metal by HIM. Ville Valo ! Gothic maybe. There are some like Epica or other Groups. I am not used to Black or aggressive Death Metal. Just not my Cup of. Long live Nightwish. We were here ! NW Army Member here.
I did enjoy your video, but I am surprised that you struggled so profoundly to pronounce the band members names. If I were to make such an inclusive documentary I would have paid far more attention to such a fundamental.
To me, Nightwish was, in Tarja era, a bit too much of an operatic metal style... now blatantly omitting Anette´s era... only with Floor the symphonic metal came into fruition finally, IMO... EDIT: oh forgot to mention that Marko, I really miss him dearly from the band...
Yea. I feel like so many of us already miss Marko. He truly became a key ingredient. I agree with you about the era's to some degree. You will notice my album rankings align some what with that. But I am still extremely high on the creativity output and heavy use of Marko during the Anette era.
Tuomas is the Metal Mozart in our Era. Wow he went beyond what is there. An Artists..all of them together. Very creative and we like it..still. I never liked rhe New Singers. At Anette Time i was not si much into it. Every Form most Beautiful..i thought ..what an Arrogance and i am sorry that that was my first Thought not knowing her. But as Time went by i heard her Version of old Songs and new ones. She is the Queen and we will miss Marco and Jukka. But now there is another and Kai Hato is really impressive. Don't know much about the new Guy..we will see.
Look, Marko Hietala and Anette Olzon didn't de facto "help" Tuomas Holopainen in composing. That sounds even kind of ridiculous. They gave their ideas, as to what Tuomas had always been open to (as he himself states in many a occasion - bringing the raw demos to other band members @ the rehearsal place). Saying that these two individuals "helped Tuomas in composing" is just not it! Nightwish have always been a many layer unit, and Tuomas has ALWAYS been open about bringing songs to their final form. Peace out
Hopefully it didn't come off that way too much. That was not the intent as yes Tuomas is absolutely the composer. Was merely indicating that Tumoas has indicated that was one of the differences between Tarja and now with the other 2 women and that he enjoyed the additional collaboration with Marko. Also Marko has been noted as being a helping producer and we know he had previously been one.
very good video but the letter went pubblic immediately after their last show with tarja. I was there and I was already a huge fan, I remember it all too well :)
Ugh the North American butchery of their names lol "TOMAHS HOLOPEWNEN" - TOO OH MAS HOLO-PIE-NEN is the correct pronunciation. Great video though! Nightwish is the best.
What a metal channel with out Lovebites 1 of the best metal bands at the moment. Check out the tracks Holy War, Set The World On Fire and Edge Of The world live performances.
at time 7:26 the name is spelled wrong, he is Plamen Dimov with a letter i in his family name. agree with name butchering, but apart from these, very informative and nice video
Oh please. There is more than enough non-female fronted metal out there that is "breautiful". Which absolutely doesn't mean that Nightwish is not awesome.
Maybe your problem isn't with metal, but your industry.... that American version of the industry... PS, The best Nightwish singer has always been Marko.
It's not like they were first. They just the most popular. Like Lacrimosa also has a female singer, and also started in the 90s. Founded in 1990 and playing metal since 1994. Also Symphonic band. Only counterargument lets say... That Anne Nurmi sings just some songs, mostly Tilo sings.
Absolutely. So many great bands/artists rarely get the love they deserve. And with the Symphonic Metal scene it's no different. Lacrimosa, nice! It's been awhile since I have listened to them. Great band! From what I remember, I always associated them more as a gothic band(?) But its always splitting hairs. Haha. Here's hoping I'll get to showcasing some more of the smaller band, really excited for that. Thanks for sharing! Any other early Symphonic Metal bands you can think of?
@@grafikmetal is Ayreon concidered what? Other bands to tell about, though not operatic/symphonic: - Opeth (the godfathers of progressive metal) , - Swallow the sun/ Trees of eternity/ Hallatar (what a sad story and ethereal voice by Aleah. Doom. Start with Gallows bird with Nick Holmes and Cathedral walls sung by Annette [yes, the same dude]), - Insomnium (you have to see /hear at least Godforsaken with Johanna Kurkela - the wife of Tuomas from Nightwish. Doom?), - Jinjer (from Ukraine, progressive, e.g. hard reggae-metal 😁 [Judgement and Punishment] and of course Home back about a war..), - Wintersun (albums in the making 😂 like wait for 10 years.. but just released. Amazing music & musicians - like Kai Hahto & Jukka Koskinen 😊 of whom you might have heard about also here...)
Same thing with Stratovarius, I could say they were amongst the first bands to make metal more melodic and beautiful, unfortunately Stratovarius is less popular than Sonata, whose singer admitted he was a Stratovarius fan and wanted to sing like their singer Although Stratovarius had their prime with sold out shows and big tours especially in Japan, it looks like in eastern europe they didn't have such a great impact like Nightwish, Sonata
who was most important singer, from historical purposes tarja, if she suxed or wasnt like band wouldnt exist! revinvention is a matter of puropse or who song is written for, no male parts since marco left!
I’m gonna sound like a party pooper, but I don’t care. I am a diehard Nightwish fan and I don’t like to put myself in situations where people try to divide people and I’m not gonna be watching that other video I don’t care who you think is the best of the three singers for Nightwish I don’t care about ranking albums I could give two craps about that. There’s too many people on herethat are seeking attention through negativity and division and I’m not falling for that. Best of luck with your video, but I will not be watching.
It's not negativity and divide. You can choose to view it that way and that is perfectly fine. But it's coming from heart and love for the bands and for sharing and being part of the community created through the incredible work that they did. It's a celebration. Bummer if you can't see it like that. And again. Nothing wrong with your perspective. There are always more than one perspective.
I must say you really butchered all their names. One by one, as I'm sure you know. Anyway I'd not known Tuomas was a part of a Black Metal band before...
Why Nightwish made Metal beautiful? Because it is Symphonic Metal and Female Fronted Metal. Otherwise we would end up with Accept and Dirk (which is very good but I would not call it beautiful...) 🤘
Nightwish was, is and forever will be my favorite band. They introduced me to metal and I don't think anything will manage to capture the magic of those first albums.
The Symphonic Metal band Xandria (founded in 1994) until today had five different female leadsingers. So the "only" three in Nightwish are not so special. In my opinion the biggest loss for Nightwish is Marko. Especially Floor is really missing him, you can feel this when you listen to interviews with her after Marko has left. She never had problems with giving him the lead from time to time, she even seemed to enjoy this (watch "The Islander" from Tampere 2015, you can see the joy on her face). Concerning Tarja: All four male band members signed the open letter, not only Tuomas, and all four had been very angry especially about the (negatively felt) influence of Tarja's husband (and very sad at the same time). You can hear this clearly in the song "Master Passion Greed". I am sure Tuomas is not a simple person to handle, most persons being so creative and sensitive are not. But to make him the scapegoat for all that went wrong within the band in my opinion is not right. For this there always have to be two persons.
Agree with all points. = ) Marko is a really tough loss. Appreciate the perspective and additional details. Unfortunately Xandria is rarely on the radar. I think I have only gotten one of their albums.
@@grafikmetal I have five of them, with four different female singers.
Xandria don't come close to Nightwish. They even really came close to full blown ̈ plagiarism in the albums post-Once.
I stumbled upon Nightwish purely by chance at the beginning of the Covid lockdown. As an avid metalhead (Classic) i was so amazed by this genre of music and totally gobsmacked by the goddess like angel named Floor Jansen.. No other band has affected me like Nightwish and Floor. Great clip
I found Nightwish by accident about 18 months ago and my musical life has not been the same. One of my all time favorite groups was Renaissance a rock, jazz, classical music group from the 70's. They were very much Nightwish of their time including Annie Haslam their 5 octave operatic trained singer. I tried other symphonic metal bands and found them lacking. I finally figured out why. Other bands perform metal songs in a symphonic manor. Nightwish starts with a symphony and performs it in a metal manor. Waiting to hear their new album performed live.
Fascinating. I'm very intrigued. I have not heard of Renaissance. Super excited to check them out. Do you recommend a go to album to start with? Also completely agree. Though I don't know all the technical understanding or obviously the behind the scenes. But listening to them, it really does sound like you are right and we do know (at least later on that) Tuomas would first compose the orchestration piece before continuing. I think its also why they have been a big fan of showcasing that version on all their albums these days to showcase that. Thanks for sharing this perspective and again thanks for introducing a new band!
They are going on hiatus. You are going to be waiting a very long time to hear any of their new stuff performed live.
Imho the greatest contribution to 'making metal beautiful' was done by Anneke van Giersbergen when she and The Gathering produced Mandylion. This album in itself and their live performances already contributed a ton. Yet, the way their melodic, melancholic soundscapes and especially Anneke's vocal performance and presence influenced many others in the scene, including the likes of Tuomas Holopainen and Floor Jansen, really makes them earn that honour.
Definitely. I'm looking forward to showcasing more of Anneke & The Gathering. Even in the 90's it felt like The Gathering were somewhat overlooked and its shame. They were absolutely influential. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
While I agree that Anneke van Giersbergen and The Gathering played a huge role in making metal beautiful, I'd say Nightwish has certainly earned a spot near the top of that list as well. From their early years, they've consistently contributed to shaping the genre, and their influence only continues to grow. When you look at metal as a whole, Nightwish stands out for showing the world that metal isn't just about the dark, aggressive stereotypes like 'satanic black metal'-they've opened the door to a more melodic, symphonic, and emotional side of the genre. Their ability to connect with thousands of fans over the years has made them a true force in redefining what metal can be.
Lacrimosa definitely also needs to be mentioned in this context. It's mostly live stuff, shoddily-produced demo tapes and a couple of concept singles at that time but damn you can't ignore stuff like Alleine zu Zweit.
Seeing NW witch Tarja live was one of the most magical moments in my entire life as a metalhead.
Yeah, there are bands (including recent NW) who may come close, but not close enough :)
The inescapable bottom line is that Tuomas's music is terrific, no matter who sings it.
I'm on Team Floor, but there are songs that I think Tarja did best, and a few that Anette owned completely. (Not surprising, given that Tuomas composed songs with each of their voices in mind.)
One of the underrated qualities of Tuomas is that he has taken the time to adjust with each singer. Mad respect for that. So many people in any industry tend to be stubborn towards "their way" and never changes. He was willing to take the time to learn what the strengths and interests each of them (along with all the members) were.
@@grafikmetal He now says that when he hears new music his head, he hears it in Floor's voice, so ... I guess he has no choice! ☺
Tuomas' first demos didn't have a female singer. After Tuomas had written the first songs, he asked Empuu to help him with the recordings. He knew Empuu from their time together in the school jazz band (it's understandable that Tuomas later released a jazz song with "Slow, Love, Slow"). After the first recordings, they agreed that the songs didn't work as instrumentals or with Tuomas as the singer. Together they asked another ex-member of the jazz band for help: Tarja. Neither of them knew that Tarja had become an opera fan and were surprised when they recorded. In order not to negatively affect her voice, Tarja refused to sing anything other than classical music. Tuomas had to rewrite his songs and the Nightwish sound was created. There is one song where Tuomas himself can still be heard. Later, Troy took over the vocals of such songs:
Nightwish - The Carpenter (OFFICIAL VIDEO)
This structure remained for a long time: Tuomas writes the songs, the instrumentalists come later and only at the end did Tarja and Anette join. Floor is already there when Tuomas introduces the songs.
Tuomas was only a live musician in the black metal band Darkwoods My Betrothed until 1998. After that, the band became inactive, but they stayed in touch. It wasn't until 2020 that they released something again and Tuomas became a member from then on. He emphasizes that he was never and is never a composer there.
Sami didn't have to leave the band because of creative differences, but because he was drunk on stage several times. Nightwish drinks alcohol on stage, but the others know their limits for a good show. There is a video where Marko, as the bassist of Synergie, mimics the drunk Sami.
Anette was part of an audition of 9 singers. Because Nightwish were in the pop charts at the time, Tuomas probably wanted a pop singer like with Within Temptation. Choosing Anette was a mistake, and not just because of what happened later. Another candidate was Elize Ryd, who later became a well-known singer with Amaranth and a Nightwish singer for one night. Nightwish rejected her because of her inexperience. Officially, everyone decided on the singer together. But Tuomas makes the sound. If he says no, there will be no more Nightwish. Pregnancy and children should not be a problem for Nightwish. Floor had two children during her time with Nightwish and took the first on tour with her. She tours solo with the second because Nightwish doesn't tour:
NIGHTWISH - Lead Vocalist Candidates in 2006
The Album Once with Tarja was more successful than Anette's two albums. The singles and album chart positions were better. In absolute numbers, it sold better. With Anette they lost their place on mainstream radio and sales and chart positions dropped again. (To be fair, they dropped for all bands. Streaming killed sales. The same thing would probably have happened with Tarja. With Floor they have stabilized again. They will probably not get back into the pop charts. Tuomas does not compose in a radio-friendly way.)
What we know about Anette's dismissal is that she did not want to tour Australia because of her pregnancy and birth. The band was able to persuade her to accept a guest singer. But she turned down the suggested singer: Floor Jansen. According to an interview, she feared being replaced by the experienced Floor (they had disappeared from mainstream radio at the time). The band probably insisted on the concerts because the Nightwish film had not yet premiered. Nobody knew whether they would recoup the production costs. Forgoing the income from concerts was not an option. When Anette get a high fever, the band apparently didn't want to continue the tour with a sick pregnant woman. They also booked Floor for the South America tour. The break must have come when Anette found out about it. What was intended as a precaution for mother and child was seen as a termination by Anette. At this point, the band was close to breaking up.
Floor probably only had time at this point. Before that, she was too ill because of her burnout, and later her schedule would have been full. It quickly became clear that she was the ideal person for Nightwish. With her, Tarja songs appeared again on the set list that Anette couldn't sing. As an experienced songwriter, she was able to adapt the songs to her voice on her own. Tuoams later said in an interview that she had come home. Within the band, she was asked to join in the summer of 2013. It became public with the release of the Wacken DVD.
The separation from Tarja was probably inevitable. She finished her classical training in 2003 and wanted to use it in the original sense. Nightwish was in demand everywhere and her schedule didn't allow it.
Wow. This is a crazy amount of detail and information here. Very much appreciate you sharing all of this!!! Thanks
You are still incapable of seeing things from all perspectives since you clearly seem to be biased in favour of Tuomas, and somehow think all the disagreements in the band were somehow one-sided. Most of what you have said, especially about Anette's pregnancy and the medical complications she feared from also being sick at the time is just plain wrong. You are clearly listening to what Nightwish have had to say about it, and think everything contrary is wrong. They did not have plans to discontinue the tour because of her pregnancy - the opposite is true.
@@undead.rising I never said that anyone wanted to cancel the tour because of the pregnancy. Anette didn't want that either. Anette had agreed to a guest singer. The point of contention was who should temporarily replace Anette as a singer. According to an interview with Anette, Floor was too good for the band. She was only willing to accept a bad singer. She didn't care what that meant for the fans at the concerts. Her first thought was that the Australians would have to wait years for the next concert.
@@Mischnikvideos To make it more complete, after the gig with "Alissa White-Gluz and elize ryd" Anette wrote some nasty stuff on the internet so that was probably the "water drop that flood the bucket", and another thing; I doubt if real reasons will be named in public. i think Tuomas felt limited later on with Anette so,that also played a role ,in my opinion, it's always sad when you have to make these kind of decisions but, somebody has to make them.
One more question for me ; Anette with her religious believes ,could that have played a role?
Floor is the “Metal Goddess “
Tarja the “Opera Queen”
Annette the “Poppy Princess”
Yep! Metal with a female singer (and co-songwriter) that did not sound like the 'old school' metal also started with The Gathering in 1994. Anneke inspired almost all the younger female symphonic metal singers.
And before The Gathering, there was The 3rd And The Mortal with Kari Rueslåtten. Their demo and first album are quite nice. Kari and Anneke did a tour together abt. 10 years ago.
Yea. I'm looking forward to focusing more on her and these bands influence.
I would compare the Nightwish singer breakups more to Van Halen.
Tarja=David Lee Roth: The charismatic, original lead vocalist that defines the band's "glory days" to many fans.
Anette Olzon=Gary Cherone: Spent a short amount of time in the band and often gets overlooked, being hated by many fans.
Floor Jansen=Sammy Hagar: Already a star in their own right, does not need the band to springboard their career. Wins over the fans, even if there is a vocal minority that dislikes them.
This is awesome and pretty darn on point! Cheers.
@@grafikmetal thanks, I lived with a VH expert for 26 years, so those connections were pretty easy to make.
I, too, have seen the band with all 3 singers, 9 times in total.
You might actually want to do a bit of research on their names. Butchery of names on this level is incredible even by American standards.
😞
@SynCloud-w3l what I find interesting is that he said Jukka’s name different every time he brought his name up lol
But I agree I like the premise of this video I like the way he did it, but if you’re going to honor people on this level, at least make sure you’re saying their names correctly and I am an American and I can say everyone’s name and Nightwish correctly and that’s because I’m an actual fan
He also pronounced Yesterwynde differently than it is pronounced on the album, and it is mentioned there 2 or 3 times..
Relax manmackie 🤤
I'm a big fan of Nightwish. Been hooked since I heard Oceanborn when it was new. Discovered Theatre of Tragedy and The Gathering when they were new too. I have loved metal since I could fathom what music is, cause I got hooked on Iron Maiden when I was 5. Metal has never been "ugly"
So true.... Metal has never been ugly. 🤘
A thought i've had for a while: We've had plenty of cases where one person holds creative control over the band and is seen as the heart & soul of it. From John Fogerty to Bruce Springsteen to Billy Corgan & Trent Reznor...and Tuomas is clearly part of that tradition. But do you notice one difference there? All of the other people i just mentioned were the vocalists of their bands, while Tuomas obviously is not.
i think that's made it more difficult for him to occupy that same kind of space in the public's mind, as you can see from how much of the Nightwish fan discourse revolves around pitting the singers against each other. It's Floor who gets most of the interviews and all the attention from the UA-cam react channels, and that has to make for an unusual dynamic.
Absolutely. It is a key aspect to what makes Tuomas different from many of the other creative band leads. It's far more common for the lead to also take the lead of the public eye. Theoretically it might put more pressure with the band itself, but it does help with the music though as it places less distractions on to him as often times the hardest aspect of all entertainment is dealing with the public. Most artist just want to be able to focus on the art itself and where as Tuomas would be the first to say things haven't always been easy, I do think he has enjoyed a lil less attention than he would compared to many of the others you mentioned and more.
It is all about nordic folk music. Nightwish smells of finnish lore and folk. Opeth smells of Swedish folk.
Capitalization and the emphasis dude; Nordic and Finnish.
@@linuxsauna Linux is always right!👌(Fedora fan here)
This channel deserves so much more subscribers!!!!!!
Appreciate the kind words = )
Nightwish is among and has been my favorite and influential metal bands. The themes of and what Tuomas says of escapism resonates really well with me as I'm an escapist too. But other than that, the songs, performances and essence are what's inspiring and can't be denied. This can show metal can be melodic, poetic, majestic and fantastical storytelling or expression of yearning for something that was lost or somewhere far.
Well said and thanks for sharing!
I would not say that Annette was dropped for "no reason". She had gotten sick and did not want to strain her voice. There was a video/movie about the "on the road" time. Floor had joined during that time, when other singers had to cover for Annette, such as Elise Rydd and Alissa White Glutz (while she likes to growl, she can actually sing pretty, too).
I think there was a bit more to it than that. Anette didn't think the band should perform at all without her on the stage. The band, obviously, thought otherwise.
I think the two hard cuts between eras for Nightwish were at least easier to process because Marco stayed both times :)
Agreed
Tarja was a professional super model so yeah,yeah Tarja era was sick though but no regret with Floor either. Annette is awesome as well her era was fun and poppy vib almost. Was this crazy era of major genre mixing and stil one of teh most popular albums as well. All three singers were amazing in their own right.
Annette is still loved and supported by the community, I can't fault Toumas if I was running Nightwish I would of hired Nightwish as well. Floor is amazing I want Anette to be successful as well but Floor did deserve a spotlight, without Nightwish Annette would of never been discovered, I also would not have some of my favorite songs of al time. Like Slow Love or Follow Me with Pain.
It's always nice when bands stay together. But there are a few times like Nightwish when it kinda wound up creating an even more interesting catalog. I agree. Great things about each.
Symphonic Metal is older than Nightwish. Celtic Frost experimented with it back in the late eighties, and the Swedish band Therion delwed into it in the mid nineties, to name a few.
Absolutely. Can't wait to showcase the rest of Symphonic Metal. This was just a narrowed down storyline. Both of those bands are immensely important. Especially Celtic Frost. Their aren't too many bands more valuable to so many realms of metal than them.
@@grafikmetal Also, it seems criminal not mentioning Stratovarius, the other gargantuan Finnish power/simphonic metal band that started in the 80s and exploded in the 90s. Tuomas himself said they were his biggest influence. And it definetely shows on their music.
It goes back just a wee bit further: Deep Purple recorded "Concerto For Group And Orchestra" in 1969.
@@jptrrs @jpdemer5 I agree with both of you. I promise to do an episode on the entire realm of Symphonic Metal (and the many other bands). I actually will be kicking off the genre series soon (Just thinking about it though is exhausting with about 400 episodes planned. haha.) This episode was a lil bit more a specific focus. But I def agree.
@@grafikmetal cool. Then I'll have to watch it! ;-)
Tuomas is a modern day Wofgang or Ludwig. There is none in comparrison. True artist.
He is special. Sometimes I don't even think he gets as much credit as he deserves. But that also may have worked in his favor. Sometimes it's not so good to get TOO much attention.
Fun fact: One of their new songs got about 600 tracks. Correcting: several songs with over 600
So cool. Must of been a hell of time layering & mixing!!!
Female fronted metal has been around for decades, there are dozens of bands in all kinds of metal subgenres already, and it is awesome!
There were lots of musicians in my group of friends in the 90's -- metalheads in death metal/grindcore bands. Of those, a few of them had female singers who used harsh guttural vocals. What kills me is how initially everyone is impressed by women like Tati from Jinjer or Alissa from AE but then eventually, they start to post questions like why doesn't this girl ever sing clean? You just can't win...
Nightwish❤❤❤❤❤
Thanks for this, welldone dokument😎🤟
Cheers!
One word, one band and you dont need anything else-LOVEBITES. Nightwish also with Floor is just on another level too. Respect. I cant find any other metal band on that level like these two, at least in my opinion
I'll def be doing an episode on Lovebites in the future.⭐They are growing rapidly. But I do wonder how big though they can get cause I do think Asami's high pitch might limit their overall range. But they are highly skilled and electric.
I've seen Nightwish 4 times best show ever
They are special. Love the range of emotions it that rush over yea when present live with them, the epic music, and the fans.
Anette era songs sang by floor- that is the best nightwish gets
I was a huge Maiden fan but remember liking Heart as a teenager in the 80's, probably mostly because they looked beautiful. Lita Ford was really cool too.
Both of them are great. Always nice to hear someone mention Heart. ❤️
Good work mate. Nice and insightful video. I 'run into' Nightwish when they released Oceanborn and was Blown away when their first live vhs came out. Tarja was a direct channel for the Goddess to do her work.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it and have been enjoying it over the years. As someone who has appeared to be enjoying them for awhile, very curious your thoughts on how you would rank their albums?
@@grafikmetal Wishmaster, Oceanborn and Once are for me the top ones. Didn't follow them so closely after the departure of Tarja although I will still listen to their tunes once in a while.
I listened right to the end but not because I wanted to know who you thought was the best singer. It was because your information was most interesting.
Thanks! Appreciate it.
Are Nightwish still "Metal"??? I'd now catalogue the band under the category "Symphonic Prog Rock" in all honesty.
However you may catalogue them, they are a self-parody at this point.
I’ve seen/met Nightwish twice; and yes, Theatre of Tragedy is amazing with “Aegis” being one of those rare, rare albums where the ENTIRE album is good. I also recommend “Goodmorning Restrained” by Magna Carta Cartel; I’ve listened to that album sooooo many times, start to finish.
Scandinavian metal is the Best!! (JMHO)
Good journey to you fellow traveler. 🤘😎🤘
I will def check out Goodmorning Restrained by Magna Carta Cartel. I vaguely remember the band (I think?) Thanks for the reco.
But Nightwish lyrics... Amazing... Tuomas in one word - genius. Floor is so versatile singer with GRANDE stamina. She can do everything... Emppu is a decent guitarist who knows what he wants and how to do it. Troy brought a revolution in arrangements. His pipes sound awesome. I miss Marko and Jukka.
What are the keys to their success? The mind behind the keys is their success, actually! XD
The short answer. Yep. Haha.
@@grafikmetal but also literally, because Tuomas plays the keyboard (keys) 🙃
Within Temptation i also liked at the Beginning. And there was Love Metal by HIM. Ville Valo ! Gothic maybe. There are some like Epica or other Groups. I am not used to Black or aggressive Death Metal. Just not my Cup of. Long live Nightwish. We were here ! NW Army Member here.
Definitely did not realize before this that Anette and Floor has such a big age gap 🤯
I remember when getting into After Forever for the first time being shocked at how young Floor was.
I think I'm subscriber 666. Love that.
Haha. Heck yea. But now I gotta interview you and design you some merch. 😉
@@grafikmetal I should hope so 😁
I did enjoy your video, but I am surprised that you struggled so profoundly to pronounce the band members names. If I were to make such an inclusive documentary I would have paid far more attention to such a fundamental.
To me, Nightwish was, in Tarja era, a bit too much of an operatic metal style... now blatantly omitting Anette´s era... only with Floor the symphonic metal came into fruition finally, IMO... EDIT: oh forgot to mention that Marko, I really miss him dearly from the band...
Yea. I feel like so many of us already miss Marko. He truly became a key ingredient. I agree with you about the era's to some degree. You will notice my album rankings align some what with that. But I am still extremely high on the creativity output and heavy use of Marko during the Anette era.
Tuomas is the Metal Mozart in our Era. Wow he went beyond what is there. An Artists..all of them together. Very creative and we like it..still. I never liked rhe New Singers. At Anette Time i was not si much into it. Every Form most Beautiful..i thought ..what an Arrogance and i am sorry that that was my first Thought not knowing her. But as Time went by i heard her Version of old Songs and new ones. She is the Queen and we will miss Marco and Jukka. But now there is another and Kai Hato is really impressive. Don't know much about the new Guy..we will see.
Look, Marko Hietala and Anette Olzon didn't de facto "help" Tuomas Holopainen in composing. That sounds even kind of ridiculous. They gave their ideas, as to what Tuomas had always been open to (as he himself states in many a occasion - bringing the raw demos to other band members @ the rehearsal place).
Saying that these two individuals "helped Tuomas in composing" is just not it! Nightwish have always been a many layer unit, and Tuomas has ALWAYS been open about bringing songs to their final form. Peace out
Hopefully it didn't come off that way too much. That was not the intent as yes Tuomas is absolutely the composer. Was merely indicating that Tumoas has indicated that was one of the differences between Tarja and now with the other 2 women and that he enjoyed the additional collaboration with Marko. Also Marko has been noted as being a helping producer and we know he had previously been one.
Love this band with Floor
Pretty darn good right. What are your thoughts on the Yesterwynde?
@@grafikmetal Love it! The best one of the trilogy
I can‘t find the other clips about the album rankings and the best Nightwish singer. Or are these clips for the future?
For the future...
10:00 - Empeuw and Julius? Bad pronunciation of Emppu, but who the hell is Julius?
... Drummer Jukka Nevalainen
Kaius Julius Cactus, a renowned Roman war drummer.😁
very good video but the letter went pubblic immediately after their last show with tarja. I was there and I was already a huge fan, I remember it all too well :)
Nice... what was your feelings/take at that moment when it all happened?
You have wright, metal can be beautiful, at least for a while.
I’m here for the inhumane butchery of Finnish and Dutch names.😁
Haha. I bet it is good for a laugh. 🫣
@@grafikmetal It was awesome.😊
Ugh the North American butchery of their names lol "TOMAHS HOLOPEWNEN" - TOO OH MAS HOLO-PIE-NEN is the correct pronunciation. Great video though! Nightwish is the best.
Epic failure I bet. haha.
Too-AH-mas. Oh would be pronounced as O.
The first 2singers laid a good foundation
Tarja Anette.....
epica consign to oblivion live at the zenith paris
What a metal channel with out Lovebites 1 of the best metal bands at the moment. Check out the tracks Holy War, Set The World On Fire and Edge Of The world live performances.
Lovebites will make an appearance at some point = )
As divisive the Floorwish albums are, I prefer them over reggaeton all day xd
interesting info.
at time 7:26 the name is spelled wrong, he is Plamen Dimov with a letter i in his family name. agree with name butchering, but apart from these, very informative and nice video
Darn. Yea. Good catch. Apologies.
I could not find a video ranking NW albums.
It's coming...
@@grafikmetal ahhh ok
The way you butcher their names is really sad.
Sorry. 😞
Relax hobou
Oh please. There is more than enough non-female fronted metal out there that is "breautiful". Which absolutely doesn't mean that Nightwish is not awesome.
100% 😃
crypta from the ashes live wacken 2022 wacken tv version has nice intro
Pop metal!!
And the point is?
Maybe your problem isn't with metal, but your industry.... that American version of the industry...
PS,
The best Nightwish singer has always been Marko.
I love Marko but cant imagine him singing GLS :)
No doubt some truth to that....
It's not like they were first. They just the most popular. Like Lacrimosa also has a female singer, and also started in the 90s. Founded in 1990 and playing metal since 1994. Also Symphonic band. Only counterargument lets say... That Anne Nurmi sings just some songs, mostly Tilo sings.
Absolutely. So many great bands/artists rarely get the love they deserve. And with the Symphonic Metal scene it's no different. Lacrimosa, nice! It's been awhile since I have listened to them. Great band! From what I remember, I always associated them more as a gothic band(?) But its always splitting hairs. Haha. Here's hoping I'll get to showcasing some more of the smaller band, really excited for that. Thanks for sharing! Any other early Symphonic Metal bands you can think of?
Therion is an AMAZING Symphonic metal band that's been around for decades. They deserve way more attention.
@@grafikmetal is Ayreon concidered what?
Other bands to tell about, though not operatic/symphonic:
- Opeth (the godfathers of progressive metal) ,
- Swallow the sun/ Trees of eternity/ Hallatar (what a sad story and ethereal voice by Aleah. Doom. Start with Gallows bird with Nick Holmes and Cathedral walls sung by Annette [yes, the same dude]),
- Insomnium (you have to see /hear at least Godforsaken with Johanna Kurkela - the wife of Tuomas from Nightwish. Doom?),
- Jinjer (from Ukraine, progressive, e.g. hard reggae-metal 😁 [Judgement and Punishment] and of course Home back about a war..),
- Wintersun (albums in the making 😂 like wait for 10 years.. but just released. Amazing music & musicians - like Kai Hahto & Jukka Koskinen 😊 of whom you might have heard about also here...)
@@sateentuoksu Opeth are far away from beeing the Godfathers of Progressive Metal. Fates Warning, Queensryche and Watchtower are the real Godfathers.
Same thing with Stratovarius, I could say they were amongst the first bands to make metal more melodic and beautiful, unfortunately Stratovarius is less popular than Sonata, whose singer admitted he was a Stratovarius fan and wanted to sing like their singer
Although Stratovarius had their prime with sold out shows and big tours especially in Japan, it looks like in eastern europe they didn't have such a great impact like Nightwish, Sonata
who was most important singer, from historical purposes tarja, if she suxed or wasnt like band wouldnt exist! revinvention is a matter of puropse or who song is written for, no male parts since marco left!
Please try a little harder pronouncing their names. You are all over the place. It isn't hard to find them
I’m gonna sound like a party pooper, but I don’t care. I am a diehard Nightwish fan and I don’t like to put myself in situations where people try to divide people and I’m not gonna be watching that other video I don’t care who you think is the best of the three singers for Nightwish I don’t care about ranking albums I could give two craps about that. There’s too many people on herethat are seeking attention through negativity and division and I’m not falling for that. Best of luck with your video, but I will not be watching.
It's not negativity and divide. You can choose to view it that way and that is perfectly fine. But it's coming from heart and love for the bands and for sharing and being part of the community created through the incredible work that they did. It's a celebration. Bummer if you can't see it like that. And again. Nothing wrong with your perspective. There are always more than one perspective.
Really?
I must say you really butchered all their names. One by one, as I'm sure you know.
Anyway I'd not known Tuomas was a part of a Black Metal band before...
Haha. Thanks.
Holopainen, l know what u r doing, do me a favour , shave the bard, and make more Interviews, like to see u .....❤
Holyhell is better
Aamiin
Why Nightwish made Metal beautiful? Because it is Symphonic Metal and Female Fronted Metal. Otherwise we would end up with Accept and Dirk (which is very good but I would not call it beautiful...) 🤘
It became a great addition to the family of rock & metal. ⚡🤩
Meh. I don't listen to them anymore. I don't find them beautiful, like they were with Tarja.
It hasn't been the same magic as it once was. What new bands do you think are?
You know nothing about this kind of music, dude
There are plenty "beautifull" girls in the metal scene
I love Metal . I don´t like Nightwish.
Short and sweet. Love it. What are some bands your into?
Nightwish forever!!!!