PAF Pickup Secrets: Start Wire and PAF Tone
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
- In this video Jon Gundry of ThroBak Electronics tests the affect the PAF pickup start wire has on guitar tone and microphonics. An A/B pickup shootout gives a live comparison.
www.throbak.co...
The pickup coil start lead is one of the details used to authenticate a vintage PAF. Jon Gundry explains the history of this obscure detail of PAF pickups and how and why it may affect vintage PAF pickup tone and microphonic qualities. Photos and video of start lead placement and vintage PAF winding machine fixtures illustrate reasons for its variation in the PAF pickup era.
To demonstrate the tonal differences between a PAF pickup with internal start wires and a Patent number pickup with external start wires, Jon Gundry winds two pickups on ThroBak's vintage 1957 Leesona 102B pickup winder. Both test pickups are wound with same number of turns and constructed identically with long Alnico 2 magnets to assure that any tonal variation is due to the different methods of connecting the pickup coil start leads.
www.throbak.com/
That difference is absolutely crazy. I'm usually skeptical of things like this, but that was a huge difference even on low quality work computer speakers. Thank you very much for the information.
I have always wanted to learn about pickups in this depth. To see them being made and them hearing the finished product is over the top cool. I can absolutely hear a difference. The external pickup has a darker sound. The internal is airy and true to a vintage PAF sound. An awesome video I am hooked. Please keep them coming.
You're fucking right! Simply through the buzzing alone, you can hear a difference. If it's different sounding in that way, it must be different sounding in general, because the circuit affects all of that. Great experiment you've done! Thank you for this. As a guitarist, people like you give me the opportunity to capture my music in the way it needs to be. Kudos and cheers!
The internal lead sounds more open. I think you have found yet another meaningful detail. Great job!
Yes Sir the PAF sounded warmer and creamy, The other was brighter .. Excellent job !!!
I heard a difference. It was subtle, but I really liked the internal lead pickup. It sounded more open and had a clarity to it. Both sounded good. Great video!
When you were playing, I could almost hear the external lead pickup with its regular and robotically-placed windings exhibiting a more level tone, while the disruption of the windings in the internal lead pickup gave more colour and personality to the output. Makes me wonder what a pickup wound in a truly scattershot manner by hand would sound like.
Definitely a difference between the two. Nice video man. Very cool.
I was a little skeptical at first, but on the test with guitar I really heard the difference. It's amazing!
Thank you for the video!
I am in awe of your setup. Literally green with envy. I used an old ceiling fan motor and a Penn fishing reel with a track wind, to build pickups. Believe it or not, the ceiling fan motor is drag sensitive and provides an almost perfect tension when you get the right speed. Starts and stops are no where near accurate though. I've wound a pair of p 90's I can't stop playing. I have an arbor press as well, which I actually bought for pressing frets. Anyway, loved the video. Very interesting concept and worthy of experimentation.
Would love to see a video of your pickup winding setup sounds sketchy, I mean interesting 😊. It does make me curious! ❤
Amazing that this little detail was easy to hear on my laptop. I'm with the start lead pickup. The external lead was subtly different, but sounded more 'clinical' to me.
There is clearly a difference. The PAF sounds better to my ear. Great video. Thank you!
Definitely a noticeable difference. Great video & great pickups. It’s comforting to know there’s someone further around the tone chasing bend than I am.
Internal wire has a more vintage hollow body guitar sound and the external is more the rocker style with a definite treble...they both sound great ...awesome work sir....
I think the magic of the tone was in the hickory floor boards at the Gibson plant that the machine vibrated against. I’m joking. Thanks Jon for the informative video. Fun to watch from a fellow geek.
Fascinating video. The tone differences became noticeable when you tapped on the Pickups with the Pick. What I heard in the sound samples was that the Pickup with the internal lead sounded a little clearer and more dynamic. The external lead Pickup sounded a little warmer and compressed.
Thanks for taking the time to make the Pickups and demonstrate the differences. 👍 It's clear that the internal lead has a real effect on the winding distribution. I preferred the Pickup with the internal lead. 😎
a slight difference is still a difference . if you're going to go the distance to recreate a PAF , you must go the whole way . thanks for investing the time to make a great product . details such as these set your PAFs apart , reinforcing again 'you get what you pay for'.
Based on this video I'd like to have a guitar with a PAF Bridge pickup and a PAT neck pickup. I think with this setup the guitar would have a more muddy range bridge tone and a neck tone that can have the usual sound of neck position without being too numb in comparison to the other pickup
There's quite a noticable difference. Great video!
Microphonics are what I like the most when I listen to vintage PAF´s. And I love it. For me the microphonics pickups are what brings most of that middy "3d" that sounds amazing.
Really interesting, thank you.
*Original PAF winding please when I order my set from you Jon. Thank ya thank ya vurrry much.*
Thank you for making this video! This is gold.
I found this VERY interesting. I like to listen closely to the other artifacts that are pretty good indicators. Like the hum/buzz as you move your hands closer and further from the pickups as you tap. The hum with the internal lead wire sounds more open and natural. The external was more choked and compressed in comparison. And also the frequency response in how the reverb is driven. The internal lead wire just sounds like more air and space around each note which to me translates to more overall clarity. It is very subtle but as we all know, in the tone world, it's about the sum of all parts.
When your tapping your hearing the pickup as a mic would, but once in the guitar I still detect a subtle difference between the two. I think that this experiment along with the others you've done helps to illustrate your point that a pickups tonal quality is due to a highly complex set of variables in materials and methods.
As a Luthier and guitarist I really appreciate your work as it helps those of us working at the tone wood end of things better inform musicians hunting that elusive sound in their heads, and with application help realize it for them
Wow, a clear difference. Thanks for this very enlightening video. I learned a lot!
15:58 Good tip Jon :) In all seriousness thank you SO MUCH for teaching us these things. Please do more videos like this and play a bit more in the comparisons.
I’m going to get some PAF.SOON
Jon thanks so much for what you've put into this. The A2 would be part of the result also I'm feeling. Whatever, you've demonstrated something significant for sure. Airiness is a great term to use for a PAF and I think you've really given us some insight here. Looks like the only way I'll find out is to order a set from you, the sooner the better. Thanks again. Best regards from Western Australia..
Jon, feel the same PAF darker, more thud, PAT is more trouble with highs. Great video.
Very informative and interesting, thanks for posting
Very interesting outcome. Id put the internal version in a les pauland the external version in an ES 335
I did hear the diff and I have old ears.great test thanks
Jon I can definitely hear a difference in the two. The PAF setup has a overall smoother tone. It's most notably on the high and lows. Am I hearing a more , for lack of a better word, hollower tone on the PAF wired pickup? I feel like I am. It's so slight in the grand scheme of things, but I can sense it. Both sound great though. I would imagine the difference would be more prominent in a more driven amp.
You are truly a gifted craftsman. As a fulltime musician, I tend to , believe it or not lol, am able to pick up the slightest nuances in pickups. I have a gold Dot 335 that is begging me for a set of ThroBaks. But money can be funny sometimes when you play for a living. But one day you'll get the call I promise. Watching your videos, there's nobody else I'd rather buy pickups from. Keep it up, we'll keep watching!
I noticed the hum was slightly different from the startwire pigtail to the non. I like the tapping of the pickup examples. I’ve been doing the same experiment, listening to the differences and reactions.
I can definitely hear a difference. I listened through my Bose headphones and I would say the internal wire version sounds more open, the external wire version sounds a bit darker and tighter, which can be a good thing for more overdriven guitar sounds. That airy tone with more overtones associated with PAFs is more present on the internal wire version, are least to my ears. Bottom line for me is: They are definitely different. Better or worse is a matter of preference, very subjective.
Anyway, great series of videos! Thank you Jon, for taking the time to record and edit these. I know it's a lot of work, but it's very much appreciated. Please keep them coming! Greetings from Burst Lovers 🤘(Instagram)
Douglas Maia same!
Douglas Maia there is a slight difference, but not a huge difference. I heard it in the bass notes of the guitar. I don't think it is deal breaker different.
What I'd like to hear is a single pickup set and have magnets substituted for long and short A2, A4, A5's etc.
I'd like to hear different combination pickup set, I have an A2 long magnet in my neck pickup and a A4 in my bridge pickup. I like the tones from both pickups and I like the unique timbre they have together. A clip on the breath of timbre from different vintage PAF sets would be great too.
Doug, I hear the same as you, internal wire sounds more open in the bottom, a little less snap in the treble. External wire, a bitter tighter overall with sharp attack on treble. I agree with Keith Blair (below), you need to drive the amp harder. With the internal wire, a larger air gap exists, thus allowing slightly more internal coil vibration. The way to excite the coil is through the turning up the volume on the amp until feedback. Jon, I bet if you test this hypothesis the internal wire pickup will feedback slightly sooner than the external wire. Thoughts?
Yeah ... what you said..... ditto... agreed... Jon .. is.. awesome....
This is so fantastic analysis . Great channel. Congrats.
Nice video, i hardley hear the difference altough i thought the external lead sounds a bit warmer, but if you really want to know the difference why not use an oscilloscope to see the difference in frequency and amplitude?
Internal is true to form of the original! Thank you for your research and sharing this with us! You could have kept this for yourself and with the trade secrets.. That classic sound it a bit brighter and spanky sounding... Love it! ❤️ 👍 These MFG ruined a great pickup from ceramic magnets wax potting overwound muddy sounding junk. And now the internal start wire along with a non potted alnico 2 with a DC resistance around 7.5 to 8.5 k sounds about like perfection along with 42 gauge wire!!! ❤️
You should twist the magnet wire together several layers to make a thicker start lead using only magnet wire.
Yeah the internal lead one sounds a little deeper, which is what you'd expect on a wider coil. Very cool sound.
Excellent video!!
love the vid please keep them coming
Hi . you absolutely right . PAF sounded more calm . i like it more
I can hear a difference but neither is "better" than the other. They both sound great.
One variable which was not taken into consideration was the possibility of magnetic field strength variations between the two pickups. How did you check the actual gauss rating of each pickup? Did you have to charge the magnets yourself? Also, we know that relatively slight changes in the height of the pickups with respect to the strings can produce a lot of variability in the actual audio signal output. A very interesting video: one possible method of quantifying the results would be to record the audio produced by tapping the pickups with a thick plectrum, and analysing the relative frequency spectrum produced (tapping each pickup multiple times would tend to allow the 'heavier' or 'lighter' taps to be disregarded: by displaying the waveforms produced using a DAW [digital audio workstation] you could 'normalise' all the weaveforms so that they would all have the same maximum amplitude, making comparision of the actual different frequencies easier)
I charged the magnets and pickup height was precisely measured.
Definitely a diff man!!! Which one is best is only going to be an opinion. I like the internal better ( I think LOL)... But both are awesome. But I think the goal of the experiment was achieved. Thus There IS a difference...
GREAT VIDEO
the one with the internal start wire is brighter and louder while the one with the external is darker and weaker
OK. I expected to be..meh hokum. But this is pretty interesting stuff. Not being a les paul guy but using buckers..it's interesting just for the knowledge. Thanks for sharing. I do hear a difference. It seemed to translate to a tighter bass on the external wire..I actually liked that better.
Since this is a machine wound process the wire inside just introduced variations in the coil at the beginning so compared to the other machine wound pickup with nothing to affect its pattern then it should be the case that there will be less capacitance on the pickup. But its a neat trick to add some airy top end to the pickup without guiding the wire by hand
Internal all the way!
Thanks!
The internal PAF without a doubt has more depth and sounded more vintage than the one with the outer wire. I personally would rather have the internal PAF in my Les Paul. That's just my own opinion and choice. It's all about individual perspective.
WOW. What do you know. I can definetly hear a difference. Like the internal rout PAF one better. I can see how this would change or make a difference to the characteristics of the pickup.
I agree with you on tones. In the guitar the PAF was a smidge rounder and the Pat# was that little bit sharper.
I'd be interested to hear the difference Potted and unpotted; if that's consistent with your search for authenticity.
Still be interested in the differences if there weren't potted versions of these, historically. 😉
Sounds like a great idea for a future video!
IMHO I can hear the difference when you tapped em, the P.A.F. sounds more bassy and a little hollow compared to the Pat. More trebly and tighter. When you played there wasn't much difference, I think if you use OD and Distortion there should be more difference in sound.
I thought PAF pickups sounded exotic and mysterious, until I looked it up and found Patent Applied For!
Seems it takes 50 years to obtain a patent in the US!
Great video!
Ps: pls switch on the subtitles your vids. This is help me a lot for a better understood. Thx!
The internal one has a crisper sound like a microphone and the other one sounds like a acoustic guitar pick up to me.
I have fell down the rabbit hole of your vids the last few days Jon. Haven't seen if yo uhave one yet, but would love a peter green pickup discussion of some sort. My main guitar, a Ron Thorn Artisan, was built around that tone.
Actually I will be doing Peter Green video some time soon that has some new information about his iconic neck pickup.
Looking forward to it. Not sure which version of your pickups I've heard, but several Thorn's with them and really great stuff.
Ron Thorn usually orders ER-Custom pickups from us for his guitars. Ron does amazing work!
Sure does....he's now at Fender Custom shop...they stole him! LOL
I did not know that. Good for him.
easy to tell the difference even on my Macbook speakers. Glad i bought from you a NOS wire PAF set some years ago... does my '59 large coil Melody Maker also have a start wire Jon?
an amazing vid!! thank you
I have not repaired one of those Melody Maker pickups so I can’t say for sure.
i agree, sounds like a punchier quicker upper mid range on the external, whiich to me sounds like a fuller tone, but i think youre correct the when you take that response out of the pickup, it is literally more low tones tho for some reason it doesnt feel that way to my ears...
I can hear it, it sounds more harmonic in my opinion, more treble slightly but, both sound good, i have a secret way i a+ b my pickups, which im going to try this with. And see if there really is alot of difference.
Is the difference only due to the fact that the internal is more scatterwound? That would explain the higher pitch and air-ness.
Do you have a video on how to attach the leads to the magnet wire? I struggle with this. Thanks
Second video in, subscribed and LOVING this channel. I'd love to work with you, I'll be going to electronics school soon, school again at 38y/old wish me luck.
Very nerdy, but I like it :-) There seems to be a subtle difference, the PAF sounding the best. And then it would make perfectly sense to screw the PU´s directly into the body,
like a steel guitar, or to experiment with different solid metal or wood pickup frames.
I hear a freaking difference, and I love the internal wire sound rather than…………
I agree, there is a slight difference
thanks great video you are a rock star..... rocket guitar scientist.... genius.... pit bull pin point accurate precise kind of person... pb.pp.ap.kop...... thank you kind sir..... much respect..... to you bro
Picking angle and position make waaaay more difference than this little wiring change. You would need a "string" driven by a motor and Fourier analysis to quantify how these pickups are different (Probably not at all). Tone doesn't come from the pickups it comes from the player.
I hope you make that video. My approach has been to use the same player, setup and same phrases. I don’t think you can take the player out of the test. I know of no motor driven system that could approach being useful for a tonal test.
Truth D Smith, actually my friend did thesis back in 2005 and i did some lab tests in 2003 if you have mail will gladly sent them to you but only to use it for personal purpose etc you know and of course you can show that to anyone just avoid makers i wouldn't like that some winder use anything of that to raise a prices even more - due in one thesis we gave free program for testing. Problem with all talk aka what makes and what don't make a difference is that everything is well known, for sure a material have impact but that will depend from a pickup part. You are absolutely right regarding the angle that a pickup, lower it , raise it and that will have larger impact then some ''mythical materials'', 2nd problem is that people learn physic in the school but either they refuse to remember some lessons or simply they have missed class (maybe they didn't went to school at all), 3rd problem is that We never see the real engineers in this industry ( i guess they didn't spent 4-8 years to wind pickups) and above all everything regarding pickups can be proven mathematically and then with test - a real one in lab - so when we find that a martial X have impact Z on the sound further big question can human hear that and above all if impact exists is it noticeable in a real gig situation. If all that would came out s data to some magazine etc then mythical industry would despair, maybe that is why people never see any real evidence in magazines as well as on a producer sites, Cheers.
@@ThroBakChannel truth player is important as well, i wouldn't go so deep to talk about is skin hard soft etc but mechanic of playing, if you like his technique of left and right arm pressure etc all that have impact. You know when people take guitar for ''professional setup'' and some dude do it without thinking about player and set up guitar for let say light touch and put down strings for shredding and when customer try it if he is some old school blues rocker guitar will sound terrible like it wasn't setup-ed corectlly. Strings to have impact nickle, SS etc, pick VS fingers, wood above all doesn't meter how good pickup is if guitar sound like crap on dry without an amp there are no pickups in this world which make it sound amazing. That is why old school players or players with enough experience always test guitar 1st without amp, if it sound great like that it ain't problem latter to find adequate pickups. Differences can be subtle for some people but lo of players will do anything for that one extra 1% that will gave them edge, i believe main factor is player and then equipment of course he can't have amazing sustain on terrible made guitar with terrible pickups and strings etc. Sorry for long comment i came to watch videos regarding those old machines which you did great, it is good that somebody made them, cheers.
@@sisajtegabre I'm thinking you're never pushing the coils into saturation so you could just mount a tiny magnet on a motor to get a quantifiable response. You're right - it's the myth that costs so much.
awesome video! I'm curious though if you did the same experiment but also wax potted the pickups...would you still get the same tone differences between the two or would you loose that because you are reducing/eliminating microphonic feedback?
Internal lead is the "pure" P90 sound to me. Just curious what other pickups used the internal lead method?
P90’s and P.A.F.’s.
Very interesting, but your sample size is very small so your experiment does not show if the effect is consistent. If you wound lets say 6 with in internal start wires and then 6 without, had someone else identify them with a 'hidden' mark, then hand them to you at random for testing, the result would be more convincing. Of course that is a lot more work. All credit to you for even going this far, you are one of the few (only?) pickup makers who are prepared to, and go to the trouble, of revealing their methods in such detail.
The internal start wire does make how the coil builds more variable. I suspect a larger sample size would show more tonal consistency with no internal start wire. For this test my goal was to compare the two extremes. A larger sample test would be an interesting exercise.
I think perhaps you are trying to wind me up Wozzlepop. Saying Mr Gundry's excellent videos are 'tongue in cheek' implies he is not serious or is making a joke. I don't think this is the case and found his reply to my comment both serious and informative. The problem that everyone that posts comparison videos on UA-cam has is that, a full blown blind test is both very time consuming and boring. As I said, Mr Gundry deserves a lot of credit for even going this far.
Great Video! Super interesting!
What's the internal wire dimension? Is it was changing during the years? What the gauge you are using right now? Greetings! :)
Internal def did sound nicer to my ears.
You should do a vid with all the differences A.B between two PUP's.
And if you read this. Seems like some of the other (admittedly smaller) PUP makers on You Tube want to make it all about the PUP and associated hardware like bridge, saddle, pots, caps, etc... Like you could literally buy a
Theres a clear difference to my ears, its funny before I saw this I always wondered if there was some gap in those first PAF's or maybe they started off with thinner/thicker wire and finished with 42 gauge. How did you find out about the start wire?
The internal wire has a more vintage sound that I hear then the external; I' am thinking it has more wines with a definite treble...they both sound excellent here. "Unpotted PAF". FISCHER ENTERPRIZES.
What direction for 2 humbuckers on series? cc for bridge and c for neck?
So would you agree that the wood used makes a difference in sound when the pickup is microphonic?
Yes, the wood resonance makes a difference.
@@ThroBakChannel For sure it does because my LP is very bright and gives me those "ice pick" notes. Ive tried everything you can think of and its been an expensive mission and nothings worked.
@@GibsonLesPaul2273 have you tried a bridge with plastic or nylon saddles? That's what they were designed for; to tame ice pick highs. Make sure you don't buy the ones with tusq or synthetic bone saddles. Those are designed to alter your tone, but don't specifically target just the high end.
@@GibsonLesPaul2273 The Gotoh GEP 104B ABR-1 Style Wireless with Plastic Saddles will take away the most excessive highs, and cost about $35.00. Nylon saddles on a Tonepro ABR-1 Style Bridge would take away less highs, but cost much more.
@@danielmankiller5098 I will look into that thanks, hard to find these things in the UK and shipping from US is huge, I will have another look closer to home.
I wonder what pickups would sound like if they were wrapped with the same type of wire twisting that i use to build my coils for vaping (i.e. Clapton Coil, Hive Coil...).
In theory it's possible, right? i just don't know how you would be able to twist so much wire before wrapping.
I heard the same thing you did.
Amazing difference. Almost as dramatic as cover/ no cover.
Same direction for bridge and neck? (CC)?
🍒@23:39, amazing! On budget android tablet speakers can hear almost reverb characteristic?, an "aliveness" from (long internal lead) vs a "sterile" abruptness the clean wound bobbin p.u. Nice work✝️ Sept.-28-2023.
There is a difference, PAF's sound is more quacky. So do you make your PAFs using internal wire?
All ThroBak P.A.F. Repros have an internal start wire which is vintage correct.
I quite enjoyed that demonstration. Thanks.
Just for the sake of chasing different tones, I wonder what would happen if you used a thicker start wire, or perhaps just wound the current size one twice around the bobbin. I know neither of these would be vintage correct, but it might produce some interesting results.
Earlier Gibson lap steel pickups used a thicker cloth covered start wire.
Are you talking about the "blade" style pickups? Soundwise, were this akin to P90s?
No, these had pole slugs rather than pole screws.
So if I may return to my original question . . . if one used a thicker start wire on a PAF-style humbucker or wound the current sized-one twice or more, would there be a discernible difference in tone? Better? Worse? And thanks again for your videos!
I would need to test that to know for sure.
Interesting, but the difference is negligible. Any output, clarity or tone differences here could be cancelled by a tiny movement of a pedal or amp knob. Thanks.
I think the internal SL PAF has more “quack”
I agree there is a difference
the internal start wire has lower pitched tap ... and sounds way more woody
I wonder how it would sound after waxing?
Did I see it right? The machine is showing 2478 turns.
You are correct. The actual turn count is 2X the reading on the counter.
I did a lot of analyzing of guitar strings brands through a 3D Spectrogram. It confirms small differences in A-B tests like this one. But maybe the fun is for it to remain subjective 😆
What type of wire are using for your lead wires?
How about winding tension,.. could make the same tone changes?
The internal start wire does effectively lower the tension of the coil internally. More tension gives a slightly harder tone and less a slightly softer tone. It’s a subtle difference but that is what I hear.
Did you by chance measure the inductance? If so what did it read, the Henries ?
I did measure inductance and there is an insignificant difference between the two.
Subtle but its there especially with studio headphones
what guage is that wire and is it any special insulation on it
42awg PE.
Jon; So how would I know if one of the pickups sets I bought from you in 2008 to 2010 had the Start wire inside the bobbin?
Thanks! Don Butler
All but the Pre-T-301 and ‘70 Select have internal start wires but I do vary the length of the internal start wire for some models.