Hey everyone, I think the chart at 9:44 is wrong. The bars for thin and thickest should probably be swapped. I think. This stuff can even confuse me, especially when I'm editing video, winding pickups, and carving guitars on my CNC machine.
I think he has loads of mojo, but it's the Master Craftsman mojo, that of seeing the whole picture from experience coupled with the ability and desire to share. I think I've found a filtertron kit with my name on it. 42g is the plan because there's no need to push limits with build number one.
From what I’ve heard, there’s nothing exotic about pickups. Once you find the right measurements, a good pickup maker should be able to repeat the procedure with consistent results every time.
52 years ago I had one bobbin and associated alnico bar magnet - wound it with perhps #26-28 - used a matching transformer from a microphone as a step-up- it had adequate output and a very "hi-fi" response - could be ok for some bass guitar rigs.
Chris, Once again great job clarifying. I have watched several videos on this and was a little undecided on insulation. Now I think I know which direction I’m going. I really enjoy the way you lay out facts, potential debates, and the arguments which are unable to be proven. BTW I love the new buffer I built from your design.
I just stumbled across this video. Its a good one that offer some nice thoughts. I started winding the spring of 2020 and have concluded that there are several ways to get a certain tone by mixing different wire gauges, magnets etc :)
thank you for this....all the information you could need, clearly explained. Your comparison of wire is probably the most helpful, since your terms and level detail is perfectly judged [obviously because you know from experience what WE need to know] whilst allowing plenty of space to experiment and learn by doing. Truly you stand out from the rest by, dare i say it, being one of us.....
I once made a P90 style bridge pick up bobbin that gave me about 2inches of inner core room to wind. I used a single formvar 40awg wire. It sounded fantastic and I still have it installed in a guitar now for a few years. It really gelled with an A8 and I think I wound it to 8.9k and the henries were outrageous. I don't remember those numbers. But seeing this video is making me want to make another one.
Thanks for the info I play more towards boosted mids and lows with gentle highs and I'm trying to build a monkey on a stick style pickup so I'll be able to experiment a little now.
Enjoyed your video! I am making hand wound hand guided order-made pickups as a co business under company employed. I misunderstood the thinner wire will create treble tone however, your video shows different. I will try to change my lecipi for custom order.
Great video! Love the charts as well, really lays everything out nicely. Was wondering if you checked out that video online recently comparing wire coatings with identically made pickups. I definitely heard the difference there but didn't know if it was a difference in the scatter pattern or not. Would love to hear your thoughts!
in my mind, I thought "there must be graphs somewhere that visualize all this info..." and then voila, there they are haha. Thank you sir! Great info as always.
Hey Chris great video! I really appreciate the way you approach and deliver information. I have a remark about your first chart regarding how wire gauge "affects" strength of signal. It sounds to me that it is not the gauge itself that affects the strength of the signal but the amount of a given gauge that one could fit in a finite space, say a bobbin because you can fit less wire when its thicker. Is this correct or am I missing something? I am an amateur guitar builder and I am getting into building pickups and I am very keen on understanding how to manipulate the voice of a pickup more comprehensively. I would love to see a video where you address these things; How to manipulate: inductance, impedance, capacitance, resistance, coil height and width, and see how these things affect the frequency response/peak. Love what you do and keep up the good work!
impedance (Z) in AC signals (like audio ) is a complex thing. To calculate it you must know the real reactance (inductive reactance + capacitive reactance) as well as the resistance (dc wire resistance in this case). The actual output voltage depends on pickup impedance (therefore, all those values) and load (vol/tone pots, cable, amp's input Z). If the coil were "ideal", the voltage depend only on the number of turns (without losses due to resistance or capacitance). . The value that manufacturers give us (DC resistance) is only a common reference, so we do not know the real impedance of the capsule. The same with inductance, it's just a value that tells us nothing about the real impedance (but all of them, inductance, capacitance and resistance have an impact on the real impedance (Z) value). And furthermore, the impedance varies depending on the frequency, that is why the pickups have a resonance peak, there they deliver the max. signal (the impedance is at the highest point of that part of the spectrum, ergo, more output. A typical Strat pickup resonates near 9, 10 even 11 kHz.) The volume/tone circuit, with its resistances and capacitances, added to the cable extension (losses due to capacitance and resistance in the cable itself) are the "load"; that attenuates the natural resonance freq. of the capsule and "equalize" the mid/high frequencies. That's why they are an important part of the "tone" (so does the input impedance of the amp or pedal; there are certain "incompatibilities" sometimes (losses), especially with pedals (guitar amps always have a high input impedance))
On a typical Gibson 49.9mm humbucker bobbin (H=0.371 L=2.613 W=0.649) the absolute maximum amount of wire you can put on it are: 6000 turns max @ 42awg 8000 turns max @ 43awg 10,000 turns max @ 44awg Obviously you wouldn't want to fill the bobbin with so much wire but it is a better point of reference than what the 'average' is.
I suspect that *IF* the chemical composition of the coating has any effect on tone, it would be a function of the material's electrostatic permittivity. This is because that in theory there should be some parasitic capacitance within each turn of the coil which is a function of the overlapping area, the permittivity, and the separation of any two points
It’s the number of turns, not the length of the wire that determines the output. 8,000 turns of 42 and 44 will have the same output. Obviously if you want to fit more wire than the bobbin will hold with a certain gauge, then you must go thinner. I’m not convinced the resistance matters, but they do sound different. 40 AWG will be much brighter than 42 with less mids. 44 has a tighter low end. The mid bump will happen as you wind more wire since the pickup acts like a band pass filter. Don’t forget that the wire is generating the current. It’s not just passing signal. Also the current resides on the surface of the wire (skin effect), so clearly thicker wire has a larger surface area. None of this is totally understood for pickups, but is better understood for inductors and RF circuits.
"8,000 turns of 42 and 44 will have the same output." Wouldn't that statement only be true if the resistance is the same? But since the 44 has more resistance (>50% more) for the same number of turns, that's going to affect both current and voltage, leading to lower output for the same number of turns.
ER Webster No. DC resistance has zero to do with output. The output of a pickup is partly based on the number of turns. This is an inductor. Each turn around the core increases the output. It’s the going around the core thing that makes this a coil. And pickups are AC resistance (Impedance) devices. DC resistance is just a marketing tool. Inductance is the proper measurement. That’s why Bill Lawrence never listed his pickups DC resistance. Only the inductance. This is just one of those big myths. As a practical demonstration, many DiMarzio pickups use essentially the same number of turns of different gauge wire on each coil in their humbuckers. For a humbucker to be effective at bucking common node interference, both coils need to be close in output. Even though the resistance is very different between the two coils, they hum cancel just fine. I make many pickups this way. I’ve made hundreds of sets of pickups on my own, and I also worked at DiMarzio in 2018. 😃
@@DavidRavenMoon Ok, I think I kind of understand what you are saying. I hadn't really considered that pickups are marketed as having higher output concomitant with higher resistance. It would therfor stand to reason that inductance would be way more important than resistance, otherwise higher resistance would lead to lower output. That's because the turns are effectively "generating" the signal, not just transmitting it over a straight line. Thanks for the detailed response, much appreciated. 👍
@@DavidRavenMoon Yes, I think you're absolutely right with what you're saying about the number of winds being the parameter that decides about the signal strength. The problem with the AC-related parameters of a coil is, that they're very difficult to measure. DC resistance can be measured by anyone, even without the slightest idea of AC circuits - just grab a 10$ multimeter, switch it to "20 kOhms" mode and connect the tips to the pickup... If all pickup were wound with the same wire, this would give you a hint regarding the coil's output signal strength - provided, they use the same same bobbin... Because this decides about the length of wire needed for one turn and as the end result, the DC resistance of the coil. It's a rule of thumb, nothing else... ;-)
@@ERWebster No, it wouldn't... The voltage is what decides about the volume. But DC resistance has an influence on the impedance curve of the coil. Higher DC resistance flattens the peak in the transmission curve. An ideal coil (without DC resistance) would have a very steep curve, thus extremely emphasizing frequencies around the resonance frequency. This would lead to a very specific sound. More turns would shift the peak to lower frequencies, less turns to higher ones. As in real life, creating pickups is making compromises... You cannot have a pickup that has a very high output, a perfectly balanced low, mid and high frequency response, and a characteristic sound at the same time.
This is a really excellent video on 'first principles' of the impact of the wire on tone. Elsewhere you discuss the tonal impact of the wire traverse during winding (scatterwound vs machine wound). Which variables have the greatest impact? Can scatterwinding 'overpower' the tonal properties of the wire selection? As always, thanks for the outstanding lecture on this topic.
Thank you for this information. I'm thinking of making something different, an 'Alumitone' style pickup, with a small transformer to step up the signal. Have you looked into these surprisingly simple devices? I'm wondering what changes happen to the signal with different wire thicknesses, and also with varying magnets and transformers. There's got to be a sweet spot.
I have looked into it far enough to know I’m not interested. In regards to a”sweet spot,” there can’t be one due to the subjective nature of a pickup’s tone.
Great stuff man, thanks for the insight! I appreciate the info and the delivery. I did have one question though: In the video you mentioned 6k turns of formvar and 6k turns of poly. You stated that the formvar wire would be shorter. However I think this incorrect, since both bobbins have 6k turns the formvar coated wire would actually be slightly longer, since the outer wraps would have a greater diameter than the outer wraps of the poly due to the thicker insulation. But if someone were to fill a given bobbin until the outer wraps were parallel to the plane of the edge of the bobbin using both formvar and poly, then the poly wire would be significantly longer because it would actually have more wraps total (less volume occupied by insulation and more by copper).
the pick up coil in only one part of the pickup as is the magnet type and strength and other materials in the pickup and other electronics and hardware in the guitar and It's construction and all else in over all signal chain and therefore has less effect on tone than most people think . It does have an effect just not that much comparatively.
I love this. Only point of criticism, I'd get a quiet background track. I'm planning to use this to make humbuckers with slight asymmetry to their sides (won't cancel as much hum, but will have more highs)
@@elioalcala4371 So, I don't know how much variation is required. I know there's a guitar maker that makes these and the guys on that pedal show have a 335 style guitar with them. They remarked how it sounds more like a single coil as a result, but also doesn't buck the hum, and that it was because one side was wound more than the other. I want to play with this too, but I haven't yet.
Recently finished my winder. I had breaks and soldered them then covered joint with poly and kept going. Not sure if that's kosher, but after a bunch of windings didnt see alternative or starting over as viable. Just got a n mojo tone device and hope it makes easier. Had 7400 on a Tele bridge and I shifter my fingers and boom birds nest. Had to cut off and now start over. Does your winder with cam eliminate this hand hold method completely?
I always learn a lot from your content. Thanks for the great info. I was confused by one thing and would appreciate clarification. At around the 6:40 mark you mentioned that two coils wound to 6,000 turns would result in different length of wire based on insulation thickness. It said the thicker insulation would have a shorter wire length. As I visualize the process, it seems the heavier insulation would build a larger diameter coil. Since the number of turns are the same, wouldn’t the larger diameter coil have a longer length of wire? Thanks for all the educational videos!
You are correct. I misspoke about that. The thickness of the insulation won't change the length of the wire if the turn count stays the same. However, it will affect the capacitance of the coil. I need to make an update for this video as there are a couple of things I need to change.
@@HighlineGuitars So much good info in this video. Thanks for this. You cover a lot of info, so it is hard explain everything perfectly. Your videos are giving me the tools and information I need to do something I have always wanted to do, for which I am very grateful.
In your diagram regarding insulation thickness vs frequency response it suggests that the thinner insulation will result in more treble. But i thought it was to do with capacitance and the space between the turns of coil, so that the thicker the insulation the less capacitance and the more treble? ie the more high frequencies are allowed through. Is the diagram labled wrong or have i got it wrong? Thanks ! (this is all really good info)
Really useful information, thanks. Though in the video you state that the closer the cores are to each other (due to thinner insulation) the less mids and treble present, though the insulation thickness chart states the opposite. Or have a misunderstood this?
If I remember correctly, the chart was intended to show which frequencies are clipped the most based on insulation thickness. Therefor the thinnest would have the highest number of treble and midrange frequencies clipped. I don't think the chart was titled correctly.
I didn’t know poly nylon was an option, and I thought poly insulation was polyester. I think PE is actually polyurethane, or some type of lacquer. Modern poly incorporates aramid, which I assume minimizes compression and stretching. I see no reason to use the older types, but players might prefer the lossy or less efficient results in some cases. It’s not true that the higher DCR of thinner wire causes less mids and highs, although it ends up like that for other reasons. Pickups are AC devices. Even 2x the DCR has very little effect on the tone compared to the pickup Z. The Z is more consistent with thinner wire, which lowers the Q, but doesn’t roll off more above the resonant peak. I think it actually rolls off less, but guitar speakers tend to roll off much more highs anyway. The stronger note fundamentals from a denser coil also emphasize lower freqs. Using one higher value R pot with thinner wire coils will make up for the lower Q, and there will be even less roll-off, but the sound will then be more “scooped” considering the stronger fundamentals
Is this why bass guitars are (usually) active? A thicker gauge to retain more bass means a shorter overall wire which means lower output signal which means an onboard pre-amp is required?
It would be true to say that heavy formvar and polynylon wire coatings can be differentiated based on the effects resulting from their physical differences, not some nebulous tonal "contribution". Wire spacing from turn to turn matters infinitely more than chemical composition. If one were to use a polynylon wire that had a coating thickness comparable to heavy formvar, any differences would be neutralised. But yes, people buy into woo and mojo because it feels more magical than sense and reality. Yay.
Electricity doesn't travel throught the body of the wire, it travels on the surface of the wire. This the reason they use lots of thin wires, not one big chunk...increased surface area
Hey Chris another very informative episode as per usual, and it got me to thinking, I'm not one to blindly follow Anyone for ANY reason ...I must concur with said narrative or educate myself until I understand why that individual has come to that conclusion to begin with, however... in this situation I cant even find my eye dog, i thought the thicker the gage and shielding the "hotter" the pickup, hence being called a hot pickup, However lol correct me if I'm wrong but it has to do with the numbers of winds and the space between the first wind and the following wind or am I just associating hot as in wire being too close together and being hot as in better...idk is shielding placement responsible for feedback as well as tonal advantages?, although I may have read into that placement spacing thing a bit ... here fido! smh Any recommendations other than than a third grade science book lol for clearing up whatever question it was I was trying to ask concerning the build and what makes a pickup hot or not? God forbid we end up bv with an average pickup in my axe lol thanx buddy anything would be a help at this point✌
The gauge and insulation thickness only affect output by impacting the number of turns of wire that can fit on the bobbin. The thinner the wire, the more turns you can fit on the bobbin and the hotter the pickup will be. You can only fit so many turns of 42 gauge wire on a bobbin. However, you can fit far more turns of 44 gauge wire since it's thinner than 42 gauge.
Sir, can you also build, and/or explain the 'secret' behind the famous first horse-shoe pickups from the rickenbacher frying pan? Apparently they used 38 gauge wire 5000 + turns with an output DC resistance of 1.8 kOhm. I feel no other pickup ever sounded the same after these. Thanks
Longer wire gets you more voltage. Thicker wire should get you more current. If power needs both, it shouldn't be much more worse to have current instead of the voltage. Why not get the desired voltage for the amp with a transformer? Maybe lose some some dynamic range in exchange for some extra harmonics and low end? I used to have a fake humbucker that was actually extremely underwound single coil with a tiny transformer instead of the other coil, and it actually sounded pretty good.
6:43 No it won't. Turns pull out a certain amount of wire based on the dimensions of the bobbin and the built-up coil wire already on it. The heavy formvar will look bigger on the bobbin, THAT's the difference. In fact, BECAUSE it's dimensionally bigger, it'll make the effective bobbin size increase more rapidly, thereby making each turn require a longer circumference of wire, and you might actually end up with MORE length of wire from 6000 turns of heavy formvar than from the same of a single build insulated wire.
Mybe I'm mistaken , but I thought that adding a preamp made it an active system, but the pickups are still passive . . I thought active pickups were different in construction ?
Trying to reuse a single coil structure to fit into it a sustainer driver pickup and a single coil to by pass when the sustainer is not engage, I buid something similar to a stack hmbucker, the question is that in my country is near to imposible to get some wire thinest than 38 awg and the most of them are doublke coated, so I build the sustainer driver whit a 32 awg and then used a 38 awg for the single coil section, I used all the wire I can fit on the remaining space of the pickup structure around 5mm and finally I dont really know how many winds I reach but the coil dont give more than 350 Ohms 🤣 of resistance so I think this pickup will have the worst sound in the world and will have a really dissaponting output, and also think about trash it and not even try to test it but finally I do, and I have really interesting surprise, the pickup gives a low volume actually with my amp at 5 with a stock pickup on the affinity stratocaster that I was using I got a sound level on decibels between 90 and 95 but using the ultra low resistance single coil with 350 Ohms resistance I got the same 90 to 95 decibels using the same amp (a 20 watts Marshall dsl) but increasing the volume to 7 (both tests where using the gain at the middle) in terms of tone the crappy pickup sound darker and bass were notoriously accented but actually is a little difficult to notice missing treble but it sound pretty decent. So my question is why it works in a decent way considering the stock pickup I used to compare has a 7.8K resistance and the other one just reach the 35 Ohms of resistance?
I have a pick up where I took off the wrapping around the copper wire and a couple of strands came loose that I can visibly see. Does this mean I have to completely rewind it or is it still a usable pick up?
Hi, is it possible to rewind my 62 P.bass bobbins to original speck. Back about 30-40 yrs ago when young and very stupid l got into experimenting with my old slab neck 62 bass not knowing then what a legend they would eventually become. I cant remember what messing i was at but the bass eventually lay in pieces for a lot of years... I also play guitar and wasn't much into bass at that time... anyway, what ever happened i found that the pups had died in the mean time. I wasn't too upset cos well, just get new pups and all will be fine! Luckily I didn't throw them in a bin ( tho. one is missing but must be lying around somewhere) but i realize now the big boo boo l made! I think it was 44 guage Formvar they used back then but not sure about that. I'd love to hear your opinion on this. PS....I used to build my own pups way back but I have to say my ability and knowledge is nothing like yours...your bloody BRILLIANT!
Hi, very intetesting indeed. But shouldn't the chart about insulation thickness be reversed ? The thinner, the more inductance and capacitance, so less treble - or do I see it wrong ?
If you was making a humbucker could you use two different wire coating or thicknesses for each bobbin of a humbucker to blend the sounds together reaching more of a middle ground of high output and mid ranges ?
do you have any idea what happens you make it over wounded ? I wanted to make 1 over wounded because the #1 of SRV supposed to be over wounded "by defect by factory" and it sounds better than regular '59s....but I have not done it so I wonder what if ....
If you want to over wind the coil, go for it. If you can measure the inductance, you'll get a good idea of how to select the right magnet to get the tone you want. My latest series will help you to understand what to do: ua-cam.com/play/PL7TLAFxVOtrVBkmFgpiMwVWmPSzNhK6dw.html
I'm curious about how signal strength depends on wire gauge. Assuming two coils have the same bobbin size and number of windings, will the output signal of a 44 AWG be stronger than a 42 AWG? I appreciate your response, thank you!
Why not just use the thicker wire, and then make the bobbin taller, so you can get more turns on it? I mean, if it's your guitar and you know how much room you have to work with and/or are willing to rout the pickup cavities deeper.
If you're building a guitar for yourself and are willing to go to the trouble of fabricating the bobbins and routing the pockets a tiny bit deeper, there is no reason not to do it.
@@HighlineGuitars Maybe I can build it into the impedance and capacitance of the coil. SD's Benedetto HB is 12k but has clarity; I suspect the RP is adding back treble.
@@HighlineGuitars Got it. It's common sense when you finally give thought to something you took for grated all these years. But it's still important to hear it from an expert.
What do i do, if i can’t choose the wire. And I only have a 40AWG gauge wire with unknown insulation - should I wound my pickup? Also, same situation with magnet -- i have only furniture latch magnets.
@@HighlineGuitars yes. You mentioned applying the soldering iron to the wire can remove the coating. Was curious if hot wax does the same thing, and if it does, what impact is has to the insulated material, if any.
Hey everyone, I think the chart at 9:44 is wrong. The bars for thin and thickest should probably be swapped. I think. This stuff can even confuse me, especially when I'm editing video, winding pickups, and carving guitars on my CNC machine.
yup, thinner insulation, more capacitance losses (wires are closer)
No mojo, no hype, no BS...just facts. That’s what I like about you. 👍🏻
I think he has loads of mojo, but it's the Master Craftsman mojo, that of seeing the whole picture from experience coupled with the ability and desire to share.
I think I've found a filtertron kit with my name on it. 42g is the plan because there's no need to push limits with build number one.
From what I’ve heard, there’s nothing exotic about pickups. Once you find the right measurements, a good pickup maker should be able to repeat the procedure with consistent results every time.
52 years ago I had one bobbin and associated alnico bar magnet - wound it with perhps #26-28 - used a matching transformer from a microphone as a step-up- it had adequate output and a very "hi-fi" response - could be ok for some bass guitar rigs.
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!
Great content, you answered a lot in 1 video for me. Thx.
Another great video on pickups, you filled in a few more blanks for me. Thank you!
Thank you Sir. Couldn’t be explained better. Very educational.
Yes, I’m in the Way Back Machine catching up. Another great one!
Thank you ...this is what I was wondering about and you explained it perfect.God bless you for this video
Excellent video. Well explained and put in perspective.
what a magnificent video! New to PU winding and very grateful watching this!!!
Great, just the info I was looking for starting out with pickup winding.
The best explanation I’ve ever seen about wire gauges. Thank you, God bless you!
Chris, Once again great job clarifying. I have watched several videos on this and was a little undecided on insulation. Now I think I know which direction I’m going. I really enjoy the way you lay out facts, potential debates, and the arguments which are unable to be proven. BTW I love the new buffer I built from your design.
Clear explanation - bravo! Stay safe and productive.
I just stumbled across this video. Its a good one that offer some nice thoughts. I started winding the spring of 2020 and have concluded that there are several ways to get a certain tone by mixing different wire gauges, magnets etc :)
I'm still puzzled but that's coz your Soooo informative! Your very knowledgeable! Thanks.
thank you for this....all the information you could need, clearly explained. Your comparison of wire is probably the most helpful, since your terms and level detail is perfectly judged [obviously because you know from experience what WE need to know] whilst allowing plenty of space to experiment and learn by doing. Truly you stand out from the rest by, dare i say it, being one of us.....
Another excellent video... explained really well ... thank you
Thanks for your generosity of information. I've been reading a lot about pickups and this just tied it all together. You rock man!
your videos are very informative!
I once made a P90 style bridge pick up bobbin that gave me about 2inches of inner core room to wind. I used a single formvar 40awg wire. It sounded fantastic and I still have it installed in a guitar now for a few years. It really gelled with an A8 and I think I wound it to 8.9k and the henries were outrageous. I don't remember those numbers. But seeing this video is making me want to make another one.
Thanks for more great info!
i am using now a superior insulation modern wire. It is absolutely night and day incredible.
Insane informations there... Thank you
Great information as always
Thanks for the info I play more towards boosted mids and lows with gentle highs and I'm trying to build a monkey on a stick style pickup so I'll be able to experiment a little now.
Enjoyed your video! I am making hand wound hand guided order-made pickups as a co business under company employed. I misunderstood the thinner wire will create treble tone however, your video shows different. I will try to change my lecipi for custom order.
Thanks for all the information 👍👍👍
Great video!
Great video! Love the charts as well, really lays everything out nicely. Was wondering if you checked out that video online recently comparing wire coatings with identically made pickups. I definitely heard the difference there but didn't know if it was a difference in the scatter pattern or not. Would love to hear your thoughts!
FOR next vídeos. WILL BE nice to hear your different guitar pick ups! As examples
in my mind, I thought "there must be graphs somewhere that visualize all this info..." and then voila, there they are haha. Thank you sir! Great info as always.
I must say I like my 7k 43 gauge Squire tele neck pickup. But then again, it's mellow and not for everything - but is great for soft rock, jazz.
great video - thanks
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you.
Hey Chris great video! I really appreciate the way you approach and deliver information. I have a remark about your first chart regarding how wire gauge "affects" strength of signal. It sounds to me that it is not the gauge itself that affects the strength of the signal but the amount of a given gauge that one could fit in a finite space, say a bobbin because you can fit less wire when its thicker. Is this correct or am I missing something?
I am an amateur guitar builder and I am getting into building pickups and I am very keen on understanding how to manipulate the voice of a pickup more comprehensively. I would love to see a video where you address these things; How to manipulate: inductance, impedance, capacitance, resistance, coil height and width, and see how these things affect the frequency response/peak.
Love what you do and keep up the good work!
The gauge of the wire affects signal strength by limiting how much you can fit on a bobbin.
impedance (Z) in AC signals (like audio ) is a complex thing. To calculate it you must know the real reactance (inductive reactance + capacitive reactance) as well as the resistance (dc wire resistance in this case).
The actual output voltage depends on pickup impedance (therefore, all those values) and load (vol/tone pots, cable, amp's input Z). If the coil were "ideal", the voltage depend only on the number of turns (without losses due to resistance or capacitance).
.
The value that manufacturers give us (DC resistance) is only a common reference, so we do not know the real impedance of the capsule. The same with inductance, it's just a value that tells us nothing about the real impedance (but all of them, inductance, capacitance and resistance have an impact on the real impedance (Z) value).
And furthermore, the impedance varies depending on the frequency, that is why the pickups have a resonance peak, there they deliver the max. signal (the impedance is at the highest point of that part of the spectrum, ergo, more output. A typical Strat pickup resonates near 9, 10 even 11 kHz.) The volume/tone circuit, with its resistances and capacitances, added to the cable extension (losses due to capacitance and resistance in the cable itself) are the "load"; that attenuates the natural resonance freq. of the capsule and "equalize" the mid/high frequencies. That's why they are an important part of the "tone" (so does the input impedance of the amp or pedal; there are certain "incompatibilities" sometimes (losses), especially with pedals (guitar amps always have a high input impedance))
Very informative! Please explain, how much does the caliber 40 or 42 mean in millimeters? Thanks from Siberia!
On a typical Gibson 49.9mm humbucker bobbin (H=0.371 L=2.613 W=0.649) the absolute maximum amount of wire you can put on it are:
6000 turns max @ 42awg
8000 turns max @ 43awg
10,000 turns max @ 44awg
Obviously you wouldn't want to fill the bobbin with so much wire but it is a better point of reference than what the 'average' is.
I suspect that *IF* the chemical composition of the coating has any effect on tone, it would be a function of the material's electrostatic permittivity. This is because that in theory there should be some parasitic capacitance within each turn of the coil which is a function of the overlapping area, the permittivity, and the separation of any two points
My go to is 42 poly-enamel.
It’s the number of turns, not the length of the wire that determines the output. 8,000 turns of 42 and 44 will have the same output. Obviously if you want to fit more wire than the bobbin will hold with a certain gauge, then you must go thinner.
I’m not convinced the resistance matters, but they do sound different. 40 AWG will be much brighter than 42 with less mids. 44 has a tighter low end. The mid bump will happen as you wind more wire since the pickup acts like a band pass filter.
Don’t forget that the wire is generating the current. It’s not just passing signal. Also the current resides on the surface of the wire (skin effect), so clearly thicker wire has a larger surface area.
None of this is totally understood for pickups, but is better understood for inductors and RF circuits.
"8,000 turns of 42 and 44 will have the same output." Wouldn't that statement only be true if the resistance is the same? But since the 44 has more resistance (>50% more) for the same number of turns, that's going to affect both current and voltage, leading to lower output for the same number of turns.
ER Webster No. DC resistance has zero to do with output. The output of a pickup is partly based on the number of turns. This is an inductor. Each turn around the core increases the output. It’s the going around the core thing that makes this a coil.
And pickups are AC resistance (Impedance) devices. DC resistance is just a marketing tool. Inductance is the proper measurement. That’s why Bill Lawrence never listed his pickups DC resistance. Only the inductance.
This is just one of those big myths.
As a practical demonstration, many DiMarzio pickups use essentially the same number of turns of different gauge wire on each coil in their humbuckers. For a humbucker to be effective at bucking common node interference, both coils need to be close in output. Even though the resistance is very different between the two coils, they hum cancel just fine.
I make many pickups this way. I’ve made hundreds of sets of pickups on my own, and I also worked at DiMarzio in 2018. 😃
@@DavidRavenMoon Ok, I think I kind of understand what you are saying. I hadn't really considered that pickups are marketed as having higher output concomitant with higher resistance. It would therfor stand to reason that inductance would be way more important than resistance, otherwise higher resistance would lead to lower output. That's because the turns are effectively "generating" the signal, not just transmitting it over a straight line. Thanks for the detailed response, much appreciated. 👍
@@DavidRavenMoon Yes, I think you're absolutely right with what you're saying about the number of winds being the parameter that decides about the signal strength.
The problem with the AC-related parameters of a coil is, that they're very difficult to measure.
DC resistance can be measured by anyone, even without the slightest idea of AC circuits - just grab a 10$ multimeter, switch it to "20 kOhms" mode and connect the tips to the pickup...
If all pickup were wound with the same wire, this would give you a hint regarding the coil's output signal strength - provided, they use the same same bobbin... Because this decides about the length of wire needed for one turn and as the end result, the DC resistance of the coil.
It's a rule of thumb, nothing else... ;-)
@@ERWebster No, it wouldn't... The voltage is what decides about the volume.
But DC resistance has an influence on the impedance curve of the coil. Higher DC resistance flattens the peak in the transmission curve. An ideal coil (without DC resistance) would have a very steep curve, thus extremely emphasizing frequencies around the resonance frequency. This would lead to a very specific sound. More turns would shift the peak to lower frequencies, less turns to higher ones.
As in real life, creating pickups is making compromises... You cannot have a pickup that has a very high output, a perfectly balanced low, mid and high frequency response, and a characteristic sound at the same time.
Thanks
Thanks, very interesting. Have you ever had any experience with Trisonic pickups?
This is a really excellent video on 'first principles' of the impact of the wire on tone. Elsewhere you discuss the tonal impact of the wire traverse during winding (scatterwound vs machine wound). Which variables have the greatest impact? Can scatterwinding 'overpower' the tonal properties of the wire selection? As always, thanks for the outstanding lecture on this topic.
The only variable is the degree of scatterwinding. Wire selection has far more impact than the degree of scatterwinding.
I use 46awg for a few of my designs
Then smaller the number then thicker the wire... sure makes total sense.
Thank you for this information.
I'm thinking of making something different, an 'Alumitone' style pickup, with a small transformer to step up the signal.
Have you looked into these surprisingly simple devices?
I'm wondering what changes happen to the signal with different wire thicknesses, and also with varying magnets and transformers.
There's got to be a sweet spot.
I have looked into it far enough to know I’m not interested. In regards to a”sweet spot,” there can’t be one due to the subjective nature of a pickup’s tone.
Great stuff man, thanks for the insight! I appreciate the info and the delivery. I did have one question though:
In the video you mentioned 6k turns of formvar and 6k turns of poly. You stated that the formvar wire would be shorter. However I think this incorrect, since both bobbins have 6k turns the formvar coated wire would actually be slightly longer, since the outer wraps would have a greater diameter than the outer wraps of the poly due to the thicker insulation.
But if someone were to fill a given bobbin until the outer wraps were parallel to the plane of the edge of the bobbin using both formvar and poly, then the poly wire would be significantly longer because it would actually have more wraps total (less volume occupied by insulation and more by copper).
He messed up
Yeah. I caught that too. I think he just mispoke. Thicker wire because of thick insulation = less loops.
the pick up coil in only one part of the pickup as is the magnet type and strength and other materials in the pickup and other electronics and hardware in the guitar and It's construction and all else in over all signal chain and therefore has less effect on tone than most people think . It does have an effect just not that much comparatively.
I love this. Only point of criticism, I'd get a quiet background track. I'm planning to use this to make humbuckers with slight asymmetry to their sides (won't cancel as much hum, but will have more highs)
I am interested on itr. WILL YOU PLEASE elaborate? I LIKE highs! So WILL USE neo
@@elioalcala4371 So, I don't know how much variation is required. I know there's a guitar maker that makes these and the guys on that pedal show have a 335 style guitar with them. They remarked how it sounds more like a single coil as a result, but also doesn't buck the hum, and that it was because one side was wound more than the other. I want to play with this too, but I haven't yet.
You might even try one coil with 42 gage and the other coil with 43 gage. I’m going to try it just to see how the pickup responds.
Recently finished my winder. I had breaks and soldered them then covered joint with poly and kept going. Not sure if that's kosher, but after a bunch of windings didnt see alternative or starting over as viable. Just got a n
mojo tone device and hope it makes easier. Had 7400 on a Tele bridge and I shifter my fingers and boom birds nest. Had to cut off and now start over. Does your winder with cam eliminate this hand hold method completely?
I always learn a lot from your content. Thanks for the great info. I was confused by one thing and would appreciate clarification. At around the 6:40 mark you mentioned that two coils wound to 6,000 turns would result in different length of wire based on insulation thickness. It said the thicker insulation would have a shorter wire length. As I visualize the process, it seems the heavier insulation would build a larger diameter coil. Since the number of turns are the same, wouldn’t the larger diameter coil have a longer length of wire? Thanks for all the educational videos!
You are correct. I misspoke about that. The thickness of the insulation won't change the length of the wire if the turn count stays the same. However, it will affect the capacitance of the coil. I need to make an update for this video as there are a couple of things I need to change.
@@HighlineGuitars So much good info in this video. Thanks for this. You cover a lot of info, so it is hard explain everything perfectly. Your videos are giving me the tools and information I need to do something I have always wanted to do, for which I am very grateful.
In your diagram regarding insulation thickness vs frequency response it suggests that the thinner insulation will result in more treble.
But i thought it was to do with capacitance and the space between the turns of coil, so that the thicker the insulation the less capacitance and the more treble? ie the more high frequencies are allowed through.
Is the diagram labled wrong or have i got it wrong?
Thanks ! (this is all really good info)
Really useful information, thanks. Though in the video you state that the closer the cores are to each other (due to thinner insulation) the less mids and treble present, though the insulation thickness chart states the opposite. Or have a misunderstood this?
If I remember correctly, the chart was intended to show which frequencies are clipped the most based on insulation thickness. Therefor the thinnest would have the highest number of treble and midrange frequencies clipped. I don't think the chart was titled correctly.
Now I understand why don’t scratch the insulation of the coil wire before soldering.
I didn’t know poly nylon was an option, and I thought poly insulation was polyester. I think PE is actually polyurethane, or some type of lacquer. Modern poly incorporates aramid, which I assume minimizes compression and stretching. I see no reason to use the older types, but players might prefer the lossy or less efficient results in some cases.
It’s not true that the higher DCR of thinner wire causes less mids and highs, although it ends up like that for other reasons. Pickups are AC devices. Even 2x the DCR has very little effect on the tone compared to the pickup Z. The Z is more consistent with thinner wire, which lowers the Q, but doesn’t roll off more above the resonant peak. I think it actually rolls off less, but guitar speakers tend to roll off much more highs anyway. The stronger note fundamentals from a denser coil also emphasize lower freqs. Using one higher value R pot with thinner wire coils will make up for the lower Q, and there will be even less roll-off, but the sound will then be more “scooped” considering the stronger fundamentals
Is this why bass guitars are (usually) active? A thicker gauge to retain more bass means a shorter overall wire which means lower output signal which means an onboard pre-amp is required?
It would be true to say that heavy formvar and polynylon wire coatings can be differentiated based on the effects resulting from their physical differences, not some nebulous tonal "contribution". Wire spacing from turn to turn matters infinitely more than chemical composition. If one were to use a polynylon wire that had a coating thickness comparable to heavy formvar, any differences would be neutralised. But yes, people buy into woo and mojo because it feels more magical than sense and reality. Yay.
Well put and I totally agree.
Electricity doesn't travel throught the body of the wire, it travels on the surface of the wire. This the reason they use lots of thin wires, not one big chunk...increased surface area
What about shielding paint
Hey Chris another very informative episode as per usual, and it got me to thinking, I'm not one to blindly follow Anyone for ANY reason ...I must concur with said narrative or educate myself until I understand why that individual has come to that conclusion to begin with, however... in this situation I cant even find my eye dog, i thought the thicker the gage and shielding the "hotter" the pickup, hence being called a hot pickup, However lol correct me if I'm wrong but it has to do with the numbers of winds and the space between the first wind and the following wind or am I just associating hot as in wire being too close together and being hot as in better...idk is shielding placement responsible for feedback as well as tonal advantages?, although I may have read into that placement spacing thing a bit ... here fido! smh
Any recommendations other than than a third grade science book lol for clearing up whatever question it was I was trying to ask concerning the build and what makes a pickup hot or not? God forbid we end up bv with an average pickup in my axe lol thanx buddy anything would be a help at this point✌
The gauge and insulation thickness only affect output by impacting the number of turns of wire that can fit on the bobbin. The thinner the wire, the more turns you can fit on the bobbin and the hotter the pickup will be. You can only fit so many turns of 42 gauge wire on a bobbin. However, you can fit far more turns of 44 gauge wire since it's thinner than 42 gauge.
Thanks for the great video. Do you notice any difference in manufacturers of the same type of wire? In terms of quality or tone.
Not as far as tone, but quality, yes. I've had the best luck with MWS and good luck with Remington.
@@HighlineGuitars Hey Chris, thanks for the info! Where can we purchase the wire?
How does amount of turns affect the pickups tone? Great videos
That's explained in this video: ua-cam.com/video/KiNyZ463tfA/v-deo.html
Sir, can you also build, and/or explain the 'secret' behind the famous first horse-shoe pickups from the rickenbacher frying pan? Apparently they used 38 gauge wire 5000 + turns with an output DC resistance of 1.8 kOhm. I feel no other pickup ever sounded the same after these. Thanks
I don’t know anything about them.
Where do you buy wire?
43 awg = .056mm for those in the rest of the world.
The best sounding pick up I have here was 40 gauge wire
Longer wire gets you more voltage. Thicker wire should get you more current. If power needs both, it shouldn't be much more worse to have current instead of the voltage. Why not get the desired voltage for the amp with a transformer? Maybe lose some some dynamic range in exchange for some extra harmonics and low end? I used to have a fake humbucker that was actually extremely underwound single coil with a tiny transformer instead of the other coil, and it actually sounded pretty good.
6:43 No it won't. Turns pull out a certain amount of wire based on the dimensions of the bobbin and the built-up coil wire already on it. The heavy formvar will look bigger on the bobbin, THAT's the difference. In fact, BECAUSE it's dimensionally bigger, it'll make the effective bobbin size increase more rapidly, thereby making each turn require a longer circumference of wire, and you might actually end up with MORE length of wire from 6000 turns of heavy formvar than from the same of a single build insulated wire.
Yes, you are correct. I should rename my channel “The Dyslexic Luthier.”
Hallo ser,,bagaimana ukuran kawat yang edial buat distorsi yang bagus,,
Sir l am make pick up swg 45 turn 8500 tone out put sharp
Mybe I'm mistaken , but I thought that adding a preamp made it an active system, but the pickups are still passive . . I thought active pickups were different in construction ?
Greetings.
When widing a pickup to achieve a modern tone, like Steve Vai for example, is the magnet more important than the type of wire?
No. The tone is the sum of all of its parts.
Trying to reuse a single coil structure to fit into it a sustainer driver pickup and a single coil to by pass when the sustainer is not engage, I buid something similar to a stack hmbucker, the question is that in my country is near to imposible to get some wire thinest than 38 awg and the most of them are doublke coated, so I build the sustainer driver whit a 32 awg and then used a 38 awg for the single coil section, I used all the wire I can fit on the remaining space of the pickup structure around 5mm and finally I dont really know how many winds I reach but the coil dont give more than 350 Ohms 🤣 of resistance so I think this pickup will have the worst sound in the world and will have a really dissaponting output, and also think about trash it and not even try to test it but finally I do, and I have really interesting surprise, the pickup gives a low volume actually with my amp at 5 with a stock pickup on the affinity stratocaster that I was using I got a sound level on decibels between 90 and 95 but using the ultra low resistance single coil with 350 Ohms resistance I got the same 90 to 95 decibels using the same amp (a 20 watts Marshall dsl) but increasing the volume to 7 (both tests where using the gain at the middle) in terms of tone the crappy pickup sound darker and bass were notoriously accented but actually is a little difficult to notice missing treble but it sound pretty decent. So my question is why it works in a decent way considering the stock pickup I used to compare has a 7.8K resistance and the other one just reach the 35 Ohms of resistance?
I have a pick up where I took off the wrapping around the copper wire and a couple of strands came loose that I can visibly see. Does this mean I have to completely rewind it or is it still a usable pick up?
The only way to know is to test the resistance with a multimeter.
Also what about using a magnetic bobbin?
Sorry if the questions are ignorant but I'm am just learning about guitar pickups.
Who makes a magnetic bobbin?
@@HighlineGuitars
I have no idea, can you make bobbins yourself?
What are the design perimeters?
@@robertcassell782 I have made many bobbins, but none of them were magnetic. No need.
Hi, is it possible to rewind my 62 P.bass bobbins to original speck. Back about 30-40 yrs ago when young and very stupid l got into experimenting with my old slab neck 62 bass not knowing then what a legend they would eventually become. I cant remember what messing i was at but the bass eventually lay in pieces for a lot of years... I also play guitar and wasn't much into bass at that time... anyway, what ever happened i found that the pups had died in the mean time. I wasn't too upset cos well, just get new pups and all will be fine! Luckily I didn't throw them in a bin ( tho. one is missing but must be lying around somewhere) but i realize now the big boo boo l made! I think it was 44 guage Formvar they used back then but not sure about that. I'd love to hear your opinion on this. PS....I used to build my own pups way back but I have to say my ability and knowledge is nothing like yours...your bloody BRILLIANT!
You can rewind the pups close to spec, but the wire made today isn't the same as what was available in '62.
Hi, very intetesting indeed. But shouldn't the chart about insulation thickness be reversed ? The thinner, the more inductance and capacitance, so less treble - or do I see it wrong ?
Read the pinned comment.
@@HighlineGuitars ok, got it. Sorry for asking.
If you was making a humbucker could you use two different wire coating or thicknesses for each bobbin of a humbucker to blend the sounds together reaching more of a middle ground of high output and mid ranges ?
Sure.
Would that work or would it be a waste of time ? Would it be noticeable
@@robertcoleman7124 it would work, but there’s no way to know if it would be noticeable.
Do staggered poles vs flat poles affect a pickups tone aside from the volume balance between string? If so, in what way?
Lollar to the rescue: www.lollarguitars.com/flat-pole-vs-staggered-pole
Thank you!
What about multiple wires?
Either of the same gage, or different sizes?
Thoughts????
Try it and see what happens.
do you have any idea what happens you make it over wounded ? I wanted to make 1 over wounded because the #1 of SRV supposed to be over wounded "by defect by factory" and it sounds better than regular '59s....but I have not done it so I wonder what if ....
If you want to over wind the coil, go for it. If you can measure the inductance, you'll get a good idea of how to select the right magnet to get the tone you want. My latest series will help you to understand what to do: ua-cam.com/play/PL7TLAFxVOtrVBkmFgpiMwVWmPSzNhK6dw.html
@@HighlineGuitars I have neonidyum magnets I want to try them, in case they dont work I will change them for Alnico 5
What if there was no insulation?
I'm curious about how signal strength depends on wire gauge. Assuming two coils have the same bobbin size and number of windings, will the output signal of a 44 AWG be stronger than a 42 AWG? I appreciate your response, thank you!
Yes.
@@HighlineGuitars I sincerely appreciate your feedback; I will try with two types of copper wire and compare them
Why not just use the thicker wire, and then make the bobbin taller, so you can get more turns on it? I mean, if it's your guitar and you know how much room you have to work with and/or are willing to rout the pickup cavities deeper.
If you're building a guitar for yourself and are willing to go to the trouble of fabricating the bobbins and routing the pockets a tiny bit deeper, there is no reason not to do it.
Can the resonant peak frequency be moved to partly compensate for high frequency losses from thinner wire?
Yes. You can alter the RP by adding a pot and/or a capacitor.
@@HighlineGuitars Maybe I can build it into the impedance and capacitance of the coil. SD's Benedetto HB is 12k but has clarity; I suspect the RP is adding back treble.
Is it possible to use non-copper wires?
Yes. If you can find/afford them, aluminum, silver, gold, and platinum magnet wire can be used.
So theres no "uninsulated" wire for making pickups? What would be the "cons" of using uninsulated wire?
A dead coil.
@@HighlineGuitars Got it. It's common sense when you finally give thought to something you took for grated all these years. But it's still important to hear it from an expert.
20th.
What do i do, if i can’t choose the wire. And I only have a 40AWG gauge wire with unknown insulation - should I wound my pickup? Also, same situation with magnet -- i have only furniture latch magnets.
Yes, you should make it. No reason not to. If it sounds good, you win. If it doesn't, no big loss.
+@@HighlineGuitars
That's what I thought -- no need be worried about a curse from the gods of winding pickups. )))
What impact do these insulated materials have on the end product when the pickup gets dipped in paraffin wax? Namely the polyurethane based wires.
Are you asking what impact the wax has on the wire's insulation?
@@HighlineGuitars yes. You mentioned applying the soldering iron to the wire can remove the coating. Was curious if hot wax does the same thing, and if it does, what impact is has to the insulated material, if any.
@@DevilMayAsian No. The wax doesn't get hot enough to melt the insulation. If it did, the coil would short out and not work at all.
I keep loosing audio on some of the things that you have said. Is this on purpose.
Are you giving away some trade secret.
Just asking
What if we use "42"and half gauge wire?
You'll get 50% more output than 42 gauge wire and 50% less output than 43 gauge wire.
@@HighlineGuitars
But ,sir , I want to balance treble ,mid range and bass same range . What should I do?
@@qeenceydineshi6925 It depends on the type of pickup you want to make.
can i have your email sir..
Contact me through my website. www.highlineguitars.com
@@HighlineGuitars i send a message
Thank you Sir. Couldn’t be explained better. Very educational.
You are very welcome!
Thanks