Filmmaker Mode: Worse Judder is NOT Cinematic - it's still bad
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- Опубліковано 19 тра 2024
- Filmmaker Mode loses - it's mostly useless, adds judder and is more about Hollywood refusing to accept modern TV advances - they need to DO THEIR JOB in post-production if they want us to enjoy motion blur on our new HDR TVs. Scenes from LUCY 4K amzn.to/3fUphHx . [Timestamp & Links at the bottom]
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LINKS
Mark Jaeger “Video Judder - What It Is and How to Avoid It”
• Video Judder - What It...
Red Calculator
www.red.com/panning-speed
How HDR Increases Judder
bit.ly/3fTo1Vg
bit.ly/2OKYSQN
Hollywood Loves Filmmaker Mode
www.slashfilm.com/war-on-moti...
bit.ly/3jwL1M0
bit.ly/2OMYDVf
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TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Intro: Filmmaker Mode
3:35 Filmmaker should remove judder
7:18 Judder examples & scenes
8:49 Lazy Hollywood
10:12 Filmmaker Mode not all bad, but... - Наука та технологія
So who enjoys Filmmaker Mode? Music & Timestamps:
0:00 Intro: Filmmaker Mode
3:35 Filmmaker should remove judder
7:18 Judder examples & scenes
8:49 Lazy Hollywood
10:12 Filmmaker Mode not all bad, but...
MUSIC
Lever de la Lune by Lever de la Lune
Eclipse by Out of Flux
Cherry Blossom by Ottom
I love the explanation of how bad 24p is for motion. 60p or 120p all the way please. It's also frustrating that your videos are not 30fps. >:D hehe
On my 55 inch Q70T it seems to effect movies with dynamic metadata in HDR..for example certain scenes will be darker but make the characters/actors stand out brighter or it will show more detail in brighter areas
Fomo is Sony anti judder smoothness 1 on the Sony?
@@nomorepictures7673 Sony's Motionflow Smoothness is the anti judder levels 1-3.
The 24p Stutter kills me. Without Motion Interpolation I cannot watch anything.
Interesting about the timing with 7 Seconds and all that. I know that some Films do it perfectly, like Men in Black 3, but most Films seem to not care about inducing massive Stutter. Look at the first pan in "R.E.D" and your eyes will bleed without Motion Interpolation.
Btw...you just won a Subscriber with this Video...👍
Which is worse -- soap opera effect or judder -- may depend on the content. Judder is only really noticeable during fast panning, whereas the soap opera effect -- at least on some TVs -- seems to be constantly present.
It depends on the TV. My LG IPS TV has judder on all video sources even on slow moving scenes. Thats through the Netflix or Amazon Prime apps on my TV or through my Philips UB391 Blu ray player with a high quality HDMI 2.1 Cable (Yes I know HDMI 2.1 is overkill)
Luckily some newer TV's, especially Sony, are now good enough that you can find a balance on the scale where judder is mostly removed but the smoothness doesn't become too overwhelming either.
This is my issue with dejudder. I like the way it handles panning, but it ruins eveything else for me. I would rather have judder than soap opera effect, but ultimately there is no solution for me. Honestly I'd rather have an option for a slower pixel response on my OLED. I just haaaaaate dejudder, not to mention the terrible artifacts it can produce even with the best tech. At the end of the day, you are relying on an chip to guess what those in-between frames should look like, resulting in missing elements or just garbled artifacts
@@MrBillgonzo on which LG TV?
I fucking hate soap opera effect. i can live with that fast panning judder because you rarely see that. but boy this god damn soap opera effect smh. It makes tv shows/movies look so cheap, make them look like B grade crap which is impossible for me to watch. So I am always at film maker mode.
Judder gives me a headache.
Exactly why sony didn’t participate. The cinema mode on sony removes judder, banding and add depth, but is still the most accurate mode in white balance and cms.
What setting did you use on the A9G? I am assuming you put Motionflow on Custom, and use Smoothness? What setting?
You are 100% right! I was automatically assuming that Filmmaker Mode’s settings were the best for watching movies until I saw this video. I checked my tv right after watching this and sure enough the judder was clear as day. Now I set it to 3 on my Samsung for most movies and learned to also find my preference with the other settings. Thank you so much for opening my eyes to the possibilities!
This is entirely a tradeoff between the glory of the look of 24fps, and dramatic camera pans. The solution will arrive soon, and that's selectable playback frame rate for movies, so most of the movie can be in the far better looking 24fps playback, and the dramatic pans can have smooth 60fps motion, and the director can select which frames play back at what frame rate. I give it 3 years.
30 years
In this world you will nit see it but your kids maybe will xd
You got tired of saying 24 frames per second and stopped at 20 😂
"twenty-something" would have been ideal - there were (are?) a lot of films out of the UK that were shot in 25 fps which a top quality TV should reproduce just like they were originally intended to look projected in a theater at the original frame rate without junky processing screwing them up.
Its even worse because some modern monitors still dont have full 60.0hz because of crappy old american tv framerates.
Where u at
Barry Sonnenfield is the perfect example of this. Netflix's post-production team formatted the Lemony Snicket series for HDR. Sonnenfield never bothered to check in on the work in progress or even send the team a note regarding the intended appearance of the show, which was very heavy on primary colors.
Excellent content, homie! Recently found your channel and enjoy it immensely. Aloha from the Big Island!
We had 16 frames per second for decades. 24 frames per second came into use for the needs of audio tracks. The hyperactive appearance of silent films is usually the result of them being incorrectly played at 24 fps or not properly converted to video formats. Presented correctly, silent films looked far better.
Interesting info, thanks!
I am so glad you corrected the facts..... especially the given reason for 24fps. If Mr Fomo had bothered to pick up a book or Google it...........
That is not why films are shot in 24p. The actual reason is that 24 frames/second is the lowest framerate that can trick the human eye into perceiving a smooth "moving image" rather than something more akin to a bunch of individual photos.
Also, film stock used to be pretty expensive, so it was in their best interests to shoot as few frames as possible.
Nowadays, films are still shot in 24p because it's what people are used to. For an example of why filmmakers aren't jumping at the opportunity to shoot at higher framerates, please take a look at the uncannily smooth mess that was the "Hobbit" films.
@@zacharywhite5631uas far as I remember, the issue with Hobbit isn't its HFR, but the lack of experience tge director had with HFR - higher framerates need meticulous work with details in frame + they added too much motion smoothing.
So you never mentioned lg oled once why ? So if you have gx 77 and watching hdr what mode would you have filmmaker or cinema and what would you have the motion set on much appreciated if you let me know thanks
Couldn't agree more! How do we fix it? What settings do u recommend to fix judder? On my Lg OLED C1, have set TruMotion to USER with anti blur to 0 and anti judder to 10. I don't get the soap opera effect but feel the video is more fluid.
Thank you so much for your amazing work. I have been having a headache for so long how to avoid judder while i am panning in 24fps on iphone. So is there any way to give a 60fps footage a cinematic look in post production? Fpr example with Davinchi resolve?
I have another topic for you that I hope you will address very soon:
I purhased the Q900r last year during Black Friday. I recently purchased Denon's new 8K reciever X4700H. It is advertised as supporting ALLM and VRR. I plugged it in the Q900R's HDMI 2.1. However, the TV does not switch to game mode automatically even though on my Xbox One X, it shows ALLM enabled. It also has VRR enabled too. However, when i have FreeSnc enabled on the TV and am playing a game, every time i push a button, the signal cuts out. What are your thoughts on this? Thank you!
Hello i would like to ask on another topic you made in another vid where you discussed about the gaming tv us said lg oled are 4k & 144hz? Is that any model in the oled series then vizio models in oled are the same? I just want to verify sorry for a backlog question i know i watched you vid but i wanted to make sure thank you in advance
Should we cut motion flow on higher settings for sports like Football unconverted on a Comcast 4K box to a Sony A9g? And leave on low or off for other sources like 4K Blu ray and 4K streaming? Thx in advance! 👍🏽
I found this video very informative as I'm a huge movie buff since I was a kid in the early 90's and agree with a lot of what your saying. Thank you making this very clear and easy to understand. I hope they fix this in an update especially for the Samsung Q80T which I own.
On my lg c9 I get judder watching Fury Road through Vudu. The audio is also too quiet. Hoping the 4K blu ray version is better once I get my ps5
Do you have a recommendation on which streaming service is best for my 4K digital copies?
Haven't watched it on streaming services, but via my NAS and it was ridiculously good
Hey buddy snap!! It such a bloody good film. Fury Road and HDR10 is pretty darn good however yes me too judder was dreadful throughout the entire film. I'm glad I'm not the only person to notice that and it's not a fault on my 4 month old 55SM8600 👍😊
I love you, for explaining this. you know i started noticing motion "judder" when i first purchased a 144 hz screen for my pc. But for some reason my old screen that was 10 years old looked better, the 144 hz had horrible motion judder, My new hisense H9G has horrible judder, I am very sensitive to this, and i truely hate soap opera effect. So im confused what the solution is. :(
You never mention the most important question: "What did this look like originally when it was projected in theaters?" That is the main thing, the "big picture" most of these film makers are worrying about. They aren't criticizing HDR solely or even primarily because of judder on home TVs. If audiences in theaters didn't see judder, then the TVs (which are often smaller in terms of viewer's field-of-view and relatively less bright than a theater screen compared with the rest of the dark theater) should not add or introduce judder. Of all of the "sins" that today's digital system introduce (exaggerated contrast and saturation, skewing color temperature, crushing blacks, image butchering through interpolating frames that never existed, odd stuff with 3:2 translation of 24fps to a 60fps system, lord-knows-what being done to films from the UK shot in 25fps, and on and on), some judder during some pans is pretty minor. The important thing is for all TVs to offer a "non-butchered" mode, and then let users add in manipulations if they prefer. If judder bothers you and you want to turn on some sort of processing, it's your TV, go for it. My brother-in-law loves 120fps interpolation - watching a Marvel movie like that made me feel like I was standing on the all-green-screen set, not having the "cinematic experience" that the crew and post folks spent years of their lives to create, but it's his TV, so he can mangle it all he wants. But the key thing is that the TV has the baseline to present the piece as close to the original theatrical form (or the form the filmmaker originally OK'd) as possible.
In a theatre, there is flicker, which hides stutter. In this respect, it is debatable wether turning off any motion interpolation will present the piece closer to the theatrical form, because you notice a stutter that is not perceived in cinema. You would get closer to the cinema experience with blackframe insertion, but this is what filmmaker mode doesn't do, because blackframe insertion limits the brightness of the TV, while filmmakers want to offer optimal brightness.
When I demonstrate switching off motion interpolation on my OLED TV, until now no one found it an improvement, they all wanted it back on.
Home TVs are less bright then movie screens? Nope, it is the other way around.. Also contrast is much lower in cinemas.. 24p judder is also present in cinemas but because of the dim projection it is not that visible.. New Onyx LED Cinema Wall.. Judder all over the place, because that screen is as bright as f....
Thats a very stupid thing to say. Which theater specifically in which country ? Every country and every cinema brand has a different type of projector system with different refresh rate. Some countries even run 60hz projectors at cinema doing 3:2 . Some cinemas run with BFI some with RFI some at 144hz some at 120hz some at 72h + BFI. So unless every cinema in the world starts using the exact same projector there is no "originally projected in theaters" pq
@mike h I am so used to the 3:2 pulldown that I actually dont care anymore.. :D
Adaptive framerate is not complex for movie content, why do we have to use dumbass technology? TV makers just overcomplicate everythimg instead of giving us presets for our own settings. Frame interpolation, blur reduction, dynamic contrast, antibanding, auto hdr should all be their own setting in a custom profile. Name one of the presets "filmmaker mode" OMG.
i love using dejudder... until im looking at people talking, walking, doing normal stuff.
I hate having the soap opera effect all the movie more than having judder during only some shots.
can you pleaseee make a video explaining the difference between judder and stutter? The Rtings review scores it a 4.8 for stutter but 10 for judder. I don't get it!
Thank you; this was excellent. I am looking at my first OLED, probably a Sony. Maybe the Sony A9S. My concern is stutter. I am very motion sensitive. What can I use to relieve stutter? The Rtings site shows all OLEDs have high stutter.
They do have high stutter. If stutter bothers you I suggest LG. There dejudder is more effective and can be separated from the motion smoothing.
We just got a 75” Samsung Q8DT after our older 65” 1080p HD tv broke and I am not liking it. It’s given me headaches and motion sickness. We’ve lowered the backlight, updated our HDMI cables, turned judder to 0 and I believe blur reduction to 5 and turned off other settings that deal with motion. It’s helped and most things on streaming services and BJU-rays look close to normal but not perfect, however most things on Dish network still have judder that makes me want to jump out of my skin. Do you have any suggestions of other things to try? I’m so frustrated and miss my old TV. I’ve never had this problem watching TV before.
This is weird, the same scene in Filmmaker mode for me is judder-free. Completely judder-free. However that's on a Q90T, and it's a bit of a freak itself: it doesn't have the auto-dimming bug most Qxx(x)T models have, but it has a defective Freesync mode that changes the gamma and local dimming ;p So perhaps that's just on my freak set.
So filmmaker mode turns off all the video processing features your tv comes with? Or does it also calibrate things like brightness and colour or both? If you watch a movie in filmmaker mode and then go in and turn on whatever eliminates “judder” will you loose all the other settings as well? I was all excited about filmmaker mode for a minute there... ☹️
In my TV (LG OLED) I first put filmmaker mode and then increased judder removal to Cinema mode (o smth like this). Much better than judder removal off, but still looks beautiful.
I remember going to see 'The Hobbit ' in the cinema shot at 60 fps......I thought it made a multimillion dollar movie look cheap especially compared to 'The lord of the Rings ' which was shot at 24fps and looked magnificent.
The Hobbit films were shot at 48 fps, not 60. Also, they had a weird in-between shutter speed, so motion blur was particularly sharp at 24p and particularly smooth at 24p; I believe not using a standard 180 degree shutter was a bigger source of the complaints. It was not a great example of HFR, and not reflective of how it is done for TV or for the rare >24p scripted content.
Billy Lynn's Halftime Walk was true 60p at a high shutter speed, as will be the Avatar sequels.
The Hobbit made me look up and get a video player for my PC that has motion interpolation, and I always use it unless I watch cartoons ie: South park, Bobs burgers, Archer... I tried just looking at Avatar 2 at 24p and OMG! it looks absolutely disgusting, especially the animated characters, they look like video game characters animated at just 24fps.
So I'm looking to buy a tv and it's going to be 55 inch, I watch sports during the day and movies at night. I want a great picture and brilliant sound. Suggestions on name of tv please.
Too bad all anti judder features regardless company introduce the sopaopera effect. At least to me. I am very sensitive to this... and I dont talk about anti blur settings...
7 sec.panning speed is for SDR only. HDR requires much slower panning in order to avoid judder. However, difficult to avoid judder at 24p in HDR. You need to shoot at higher frame rates for HDR. That's where TrueCut enters the picture. Unfortunately for the ordinary filmmaker creating HDR content, it's way too expensive.
which tv has the most soap opera effect and HDR and is the largest size?
I'm partially color blind and the Soap Opera effect actually helps in seeing some of the colors
maybe it's better to invest the money in the color seeing glasses
I love soap opera effect. How can i have the soap opera effect on Samsung new Tv, that doesn’t have the Blur reduction (it stile has the judder reduction, but not the Blur reduction)? Thanks a lot
Hey .plz can you help.iam on the verge of buying a Samsung eu55 8507 tv .I noticed in the shop the video playing was very judery!
Went home and discovered motion an issue in most tvs .
Have they had motion turned off mybe or on ? Should I let this put me off buying It?
Is this tv any Good? Should I be worried ?
Marcus
There’s only 2 ways to eliminate judder/stuttering but both introduce their own problems: (1) max out the anti-judder setting or “smooth” but this means some soap opera or (2) activate black frame insertion BFI or “clarity” setting but this is dimmer and may cause flicker! Higher end TVs from Sony and LG are best, with Samsung just behind
On LG OLED I can set de-judder in Filmmaker mode. Whats the problem?
The problem is that it looks bad anyway.
What 4K TV do you most recommend for watching movies?
when I upgraded to my p series tcl 4k hdr I thought I was loosing my mind that I got a dud because of the judder. Now I've accepted the fact it's the source or the application being used that I'm watching that is being juddered. blu ray discs will always be smoother than streaming but never perfect.
24 fps isn't just a holdover from the age of 35mm film. It gives us the motion blur needed for a cinematic experience because of how our brains process motion. You need a true 120hz (or 240) TV to give you the 5:5 pulldown for 24fps images to be displayed properly. 24fps doesn't divide into 60hz well so Filmmaker mode doesn't work well for some scenes on these TVs. High frame rate movies (60fps+) make scenes look fake and staged.
Great video. Thanks!
I just found the De-Blur & De-Judder in my LG CX 77" and wanted to know more about them.
THANK YOU!
Finally someone that talk about it, and say the things some other wont. And myself, I hate both soap opera effect, and of course the judder.
So far the picture clarity is a lesser evil, and I will not stop using that, even when the Stranger Thing creator recommend us to not use picture clarity.
Well I do NOT like the judder too. So whatever the creator says, I WILL use the setup that could make the judder less visible.
But I didn't think the filmmaker mode did it worse... So thanks again, I will turn it back to only movie mode.
And I wish they could upgrade the software, so it wasn't that bad. And it is smart TV, right?
Hello, I am French and very bad at English but I love the work done on this channel. I discover new things each time so thank you !! (and Google translate)
Probably not lazy, filmmakers are passionate about their craft, I would put the blame on studio budgets more than anything
I'm all for modern productions adopting higher frame-rates, and for being able to watch those productions at those higher rates... I think they should pursue that! However, if I'm watching an older film that was made with 24 fps in mind, then that's how I personally want to see it. And having a mode I can turn on for that makes sense. If you'd rather watch old films with an artificially enhanced frame rate, then just don't use that mode. Sounds like having various mode options is a good way to please a wide variety of tastes.
Exactly!! I just got my new Samsung 65 Inch QLED and for the last few days I was so confused watching my favourite older horror movies, way too fluid, way too fast, soap opera like and then I found out about the filmmaker button and all was good lol I guess I’ll remove the filmmaker mode for gaming however…
@@savagemathorror4671 QLED isn't as bad as OLED for that. OLED has awful judder without any interpolation. So unless you want constant shaking like you're 2 or 3 drinks in, you have to use some smoothing.
LCD isn't so bad with no help.
@@paulcox2447 that's because oled has a much faster pixel response then lcd which is great for many reasons. But inherently it causes lower frame content to produce more stutter, not really judder. But I would take that anyway if the week over that terrible soap opera effect caused by motion interpolation.
Great explanation on jutter. Especially the side by comparison which a lot of people don’t show when explaining this topic. It’s something I’ve been sensitive to for a while now. Probably only because I’m more aware of it now than I was in the past. 😂
Thanks! So I should always pan vids at 25fps???
Sorry if this has already been said (I didn't read all the posts). The very first thing I thought of is why don't the TV manufacturers just make their refresh rates be the highest multiple of 24 they can. Then the judder solution becomes trivial (assuming the source's 24fps video judder is good).
Aside from that, this was a great video and I learned a lot.
Still I would take judder any day over that ugly soap Oprah effect!
On Panasonic OLED, what’s your preferred mode ?
I start at first with Filmmaker mode because of all the hype about.
Then when watching old 35mm movies in HDR, i started to discover the judder and stutter. I read that OLED impressive specs in brightness and response time show us what we never saw before.
So i tried the True Cinema mode, Normal Mode and the old “Cinema Mode”. The later is the best for me.
Panasonic OLED Cinema Mode is close to Sony OLED Expert mode on another tv in my family …
What your best mode ?
I wonder when variable refresh rate films will start to become a thing they can have both judder free and film blur in the same video.
When filmmakers decide to stop complaining and start something about I instead.
Judder makes an expensive tv seem cheap. Is there not a way to detect when a screen pans and apply the anti judder during those scenes.
And the scene in Lucy is how many minutes into the movie, please ? ;)
Great video. Love the explanations and not the brain dead "turn everything off because other people say so".
Would love to hear more about the solutions that film makers can do. Is the best solution to still film in 24p but strictly follow all the judder rules? Would it help if they filmed in a higher fps or would this cause the soap opera effect, or is the soap opera effect only caused when trying to make 24p look more smooth afterwards?
well yes. Most judder I’ve seen is largely caused by a 24FPS movie playing on a 60/120hz TV. If filmmakers stopped with the “tradition” bullshit and moved to a more modern framerate (such as 30 or 60FPS) judder wouldn’t be an issue.
@@jaycorbin5361 there's a reason Gemini man and the hobbit had not the greatest receptions and it wasn't because of tradition or whatever. People who don't know anything about frame rate or Hz largely rejected those movies presentation because high frame rate just doesn't look good in movies. Makes it look like a cheap student film or a video game.
Shooting at higher frame rates is the same as artificially raising the frame rate in post (be it by the filmmaker or by the TV). That's why it is called soap opera effect. Soap operas were traditionally shot at higher frame rates (50 or 60 fps), just like the news.
IMHO the best option is a) filmmaker mode ;) and b) filmmakers knowing their craft and taking care. Sometimes I see them cheap out and not use ND filters to get the shutter speed to a more reasonable level, or in reverse, use a very slow shutter speed to capture more light without having to add artificial lighting (leading to a soap opera effect, despite being shot at 24 fps). But 24 fps is the best frame rate.
You mention turning on judder reduction, but leaving the blur reduction off to keep the cinematic feel and avoid the soap opera effect. However, on my Samsung Q80r, it is the judder reduction that introduces the soap opera effect, the blue reduction does not.
I love soap opera effect for games, especially since some machines like PS4 and Switch that have many games stuck at horrible 30FPS.
Of course I turn it off for shoes/movies and prefer natural 60/120FPS whenever possible.
@mike h once I was able to get a motion interpolation tv as a kid it made games like assassin's Creed so much better. I was able to overcompensate with the lag but the judder and non smoothness bothered me too much. Right now I have an LG C8 and this is honestly the only reason I want a CX so bad for Gsync and 4k 120hz with HDR with the new Nvidia GPUs next month. I will play around with motion interpolation again since I haven't turned on that setting since I got my OLED. I run the proper calibration settings everyone recommends. Idk how to calibrate tv for HDR. But all my high refresh rate gaming monitors with gsync and 100% sRGB.
So why is soap opera effect supposed to be bad for online competitive gaming?
How find anti-judder efect in m'y sony A9G? I haw à judders in tv
Filmmaker mode looks worse than any other mode on my tv , I can't see why people make such a big deal about it, considering it makes movies look horrible
I think it's nice. But first thing i do when I get a new tv is that i disable all autofeatures and reconfigure color, brightness, contrast and sound frequensies. This would save some inital setup.
I v a samsung s95b , judder is awfull. When I add frames, I have artefacts. Can I add blur? :(
My bluray player has an option that allows me to forze a 24hz output. This option it's very helpfully to reduce the judder at minimum
Which one?
How about filming films in 120fps and then have a setting that chops the footage down to 24fps for people that want to watch slideshows?
THIS is exactly what I would do
Unfortunately film makers talk about 24fps footage as being the undisputed framerate of choice and insist on everyone watching their movies at that rate. Storage capacity and streaming bandwidth aside, 120 is a good number as it can be scaled down to 24, 30, 40, and 60fps without any sync issues.
I want a movie to look like I'm looking at real life through a window, there's nothing immersive about 24fps. All it does is keep a mental barrier between the viewer and the content, especially if there's any fast paced motion on screen like sports or vehicles.
If I saw judder when viewing the world around me I'd be at my eye doctor faster than you could say "judder".
Don’t have film maker mode. But I did wanted to hear your input on this. And I agree. It’s something I just can’t stand. In gaming, that’s the lag/jitter. Thanks for the video.
So is there a way you can get rid of judder with a calibration for your tv? Like for the LG CX? Not all the movies have judder but when it does it sucks 🤦🏻♂️
"Barry Sonnenfeld calls HDR a 'disaster'" ... that's OK Barry, your recent movies have been disasters too
Thank you! This is exactly how i feel about judder and high pixel response time doesn't help. Why they don't shoot movies at 30 FPS is beyond me.
Filmmaker IQ has a series of good videos on why films are shot in 24FPS. They have a unique dream-like aesthetic quality that we love, every film ever made was shot on 24FPS.
30FPS looks more like a video rather than a film, though the soap opera and uncanny valley effects are still nowhere near as bad as 60FPS.
@@matheus5230 It feels like a "dream" because your brain has to resolve the missing frames.. like a radio station that keeps skipping.. there is no reason not to go with 48fps.. if you had the opportunity of watching The Hobbit on theaters that certainly was an eye opener.
@@absolutium I have a full elaborate answer to you, but UA-cam is not allowing me to post it for some reason. I post it, but it disappears after less than one minute.
am not familiar with judder but most people keep the motion plus off “ judder and blur “ should turn it auto on movie mode ?
That's why i love listening to professionals. You learn more from them. They know what goes on in the film making process and therefore knows where the shortcomings lie.
I'm just amazed on your knowledge in this industry has a whole. Mind boggling.. I love it
Thank you for calling this out!!!
I always use the best calibration settings isf dark room no trumotion on my lg b9
This is one of the reasons CRTs still beats modern tvs fom movie experience. With modern tvs theres always a compromise between soap opera effect and judder. I often regret buying an oled. Plasma was better in this concern, but not flawless like crt
Yeah wish someone told me about OLED sutter only thing I read was best TV to buy
I believe you missed one point. I call *stutter* the stroboscopic effect of objects jumping from one position of the picture to this other. Fastest reactive displays (plasma, oled) show it more than slower ones (LCD). I call *judder* stutter that has uneven velocity, I mean that contains micro accelerations. The worst example being when playing a 24 fps on a display with a different refresh rate.
Without motion compensation processing, the driver of the display just introduces duplicated frame and break the smoothness of the motion as object are frozen in time unevenly. Now we have the chance to have high motion camera even in our smartphones, it is easy to film in 120fps and qualify how good phase correlated motion compensation of various brands deals in applying morphing, blending, motion blur or AI redraw of new frames to adapt 24 fps into a whatever number of display frames (48, 96, or unfortunately if not possible, with more difficulty towards 100 or 120 hz).
Mr Fomo, please introduce in your tests a motion graph showing the velocity in a camera pan or in a included object over a background. The smoother the motion line, the better the processing. That might speak to people how much stutter and judder is introduced on the display compared with the source material.
A good 2 or 4 factor will show some regularly stutter, but to smooth motion to a factor of 50/24 or wort 60/24
I use HDR Effect and Cinema Dolby Picture on The C9 looks good 2 me
Completely disagree - and so do real Filmmaker's. The work Christopher Nolan, Quentin Tarantino, Paul Thomas Anderson and others have done to preserve the intended look of 24FPS films at home is exemplary - and should be celebrated. Nearly all post-processing destroys the intended look of film - especially frame interpolation and DNR.
Agree… watched some movies in filmmaker mode and not going back… it pulls me in don’t know if the colors or the way motion flows… but it’s awesome LG oled
Mark Jaeger indicates that increasing camera resolution reduces pan time, whereas you appear to be saying the opposite. Which is correct please?
Yeah, that description was all wrong. A bigger screen size relative to viewing distance does increase visibility of judder. You'll notice it less on a phone screen than 60" from a 85" TV. Resolution is way less important, as long as there are enough pixels to not introduce more blur from a too-low resolution. 1080p is pretty much fine for that, and you wouldn't see much of a difference in judder between 1080p and 8K on the same TV.
So if filmmaker mode is poor, how do I optimize my tv settings for the most authentic viewing experience?
Use Filmmaker Mode. It replicates what the director and cinematographer approved in the color suite on a professional, calibrated display. Any judder they saw, they said "yes, that's my movie!" to.
It would be cool if AI image processors could recognize when it’s a panning scene and automatically implement motion interpolation and then turn it off after the scene
THIS!!!! I watched Aliens and it looks great as it is, BUT the panning shot of the earth and space station it had a lot of judder. Turning on Motion Interpolation made that scene great but made the rest like a soap opera effect
Well they sort of already can; a lot of TV manufactureres offer independant blur- and judder reduction. So you can crank the judder MI and leave the blur reduciton alone or at a low level.
It works quite well I have it set on dejudder: 4 and deblur 2 on my Panasonic Oled.
They problem imo is that the AI is still not good enough yet (and maybe never will be) to implement motion interplation without visible artifacts... Or they should simply shoot panning scenes with HFR.
@@floz9718 My TV also has judder and blur as separate functions - I think most 120hz panels do. I set my blur to 0 and judder to 2 when watching low frame rate content like movies. That’s not what I was speaking of. I want a way for it to recognize when it’s a panning scene and have it put judder on full max and then turn it off completely as soon as the panning shot is over
@@Noticerofthings Ok you mean some kind of motion metadata inbeded in the video codec.That would be pretty cool but it won't help us much when the AI (like in it's current state) can't remove the judder without visible artifacts. When I can't set the dejudder any higher than 4 on my TV because then the articfacts get out of hand (and yes, even the artifacts in "only panning" scenes).
@@floz9718 Well then you’ll have to go for a high end Sony or LG for the best motion processing, which is still only just decent. I don’t see any artifacts using dejudder but I do see SOA which bothers me equally as much. The only time I see artifacts is when using the deblur on high frame-rate content.
A little off topic, but I find most calibration settings call for “movie” mode. Now I will admit that when watching HDR or movies/shows that are streamed and high quality, it looks nice. However, I have always found that with standard SDR content, it often looks washed out. I find this to be very true with the news for example. I think because a lot of cable providers are really only giving consumers 720p, the image already looks less vibrant and once movie mode is applied, it looks terrible. I sometimes feel like I need to go standard mode but then it looks bad as I have calibrated the tv for movie mode.
My LG CX still allows motion smoothing in Filmmaker Mode
So what's the point of filmmaker mode then?
Removes any other post processing. Filmmaker Mode isn’t about Judder, it’s about color accuracy.
It should be about color accuracy but FM it’s not color calibrated, colors are way of compared to my isf calibrated mode, this is lazy from lg for not providing an out of the box calibrated mode.
Hollywood wants motion smoothing OFF.
@@miketg oh ok i see
Thanks for the explanation Mr.FoMo I use cinema home user with my settings on my lg cx playing games on my pro,now no judder or motion blur,game mode us disaster. Will have to wait to get my hands on the ps5 and may be then i can use game mode😊.
Yeah, any game running at 30fps can look pretty bad on an oled.
It's why I bought a Sony bravia HDR TV tbh. Motion is a tricky one, as most people are far less sensitive to it (likely through conditioning over the years). I do think more people will notice motion issues as they upgrade to larger, brighter and higher resolution TVs though. As someone that's grown up with video games, I'm far more happy with smoother 30 or 60 fps. Tbh, i don't see why many modern films can't now be shot at 120fps (seeing as digital cameras exist and bluray discs are getting ever larger in storage capacity). Then just leave it up to us consumers to make the choice. Have it at 24p as default, but if we want higher the 30, 60 or even 120p setting is just a button press away on the bluray player. My preferred F. R. for the vast majority of movies would be 30p. It provides the best balance of smoothness without too much of that cheap-looking 'uncanny valley' affect seen in gemini man. I think all of these film people like Tom Cruise trying to dissuade people from using motion smoothing is ridiculous. Why the hell can't we decide what we prefer? As you so rightly stated Fomo, 24p is just a remnant from a bygone age. The modern world has truly excellent cinematic gaming experiences such as 'the last of us' saga in 30/60fps to shake things up, blurring the lines between traditional filmmaking and ultra modern cgi techniques and tools.
You can't just shoot 120 fps and let viewers decide. The amount of motion blur needs to be different, for one. When shooting at 120 fps, you should set the shutter speed to 1/240 (which means it is going to be BRIGHT on set or it is going to be noise in the image. You'll also need a ton of artificial light). But that would mean when watching at 24 fps, it will look like Saving Private Ryan all the time. Cause for 24 fps it should be 1/48 instead. Also, the way the camera pans etc. needs to be different for 24 fps and 120 fps.
There's also the thing with things looking too realistic at higher frame rates. In that case, the brain will be much more critical to what is seen. It works for some content of course (documentaries for example), but typically in a movie there needs to be some suspension of disbelief. Video games do not suffer from that (yet) because they don't look realistic enough anyway. Also, video games are interactive, it would be a big problem if the game doesn't react to input instantly. Different needs.
Do you know of any emerging or existing technologies other than motion smoothing/BFI which will eliminate this judder issue properly? Aka without causing soap-opera effect or lowering brightness. Both of those are, at-best, patches to the real issue. It drives me absolutely crazy, and I can never seem to get the right balance. I'd love to see a new TV which doesn't suffer this problem.
ask netflix to let you stream their remastered content in 120 fps. that will fix everything.
@@NaumRusomarov That's fine for content rendered in 60fps/120fps, but the vast majority of content isn't. So most things I watch look noticeably bad to me.
@@QbMaster2003 that would also be fine for content shot in 24fps, but they'd have to remaster it first in 60 or 120 fps, this really is doable for professional studios, and then let us stream the remastered content in 60/120 fps.
otherwise, maybe some AI/ML algorithms might be able to improve motion interpolation in the future, but this is speculative, there's no evidence that machine learning can fix this problem.
For the time being the best way is to set motion interpolation to on for bright hdr content or use black-frame insertion in filmmaker mode. The latter is very successful in removing stutter from 24 fps content, but you need to watch the film in a dark room. ymmv.
I'll take judder over soap-opera effect any day. To say that motion smoothing is a solution to judder is like saying Lysol is a solution to the smell of shit.
If Mr.FOMO goes missing, we all know why.....That's right, we're watching you Film makers!!!
sometimes a calibration can help a little with the studder, making it less obvious.
With the Samsung s90s I just set judder at 1 or 2 in the picture clarity settings and it gets rid of the judder without over smoothing it. I don’t want over smoothing but I don’t want judder either. I wish they would just bump movies up to just 30 when making new movies. So at least TVs could handle it easier.
Love how you bash judder yet this video is 24fps.
ironic and symbolic to drive the point home!
All that this video proved was that I need to hang onto my Samsung Plasma for dear life. In no way shape or form, is the "soap opera effect" ever acceptable. I'd rather have "judder" sometimes, than have the motion of the image look like crap 98% of the time. However, with my plasma, I don't have to deal with either. Guess I'll stay stuck in the past, until something else comes along....No 4K until they can resolve both of these issues.
I like that you make videos almost every day 🐱🙂☺️
"Almost", think I'll take a break :)
Stop the FOMO nooo I love your content! Thank you for keeping us up to date with tv news! It is greatly appreciated
@@stopthefomo dude I am very grateful I am a C.S. guy and know a lot about tech. Took some photography classes but always learning because of these videos thank you.
Why is the judder so bad on Netflix on my cx when I play it with nvidia shield tv. But when I use the app on the CX it’s seems better?
If your Shield is set to 60p output, each 24p frame gets turned into a repeating pattern of 2 frames and 3 frames, so 24 goes into 60. That's ANOTHER kind of judder. When frames last different amounts of time, motion seems to speed up and slow down 6 times a second.
Setting output fps to change with the content would eliminate the 3:2 judder, which is likely why the Shield is different from the app.
Just had to throw thanks. Saw this a while back and really helped understand the issues around 24fps, judder, etc. Although there is nothing special/magic about 24fps, there is something positive about motion blur in some ways. But, like most things, its all trade-offs.
Unfortunately, every film maker will not agree on all the standards. So, we all have the problem if having to watch a bit of a movie and determine which picture mode and settings will look the best for us. In some cases, Film Maker mode will look pretty good. Other times, I will chose Cinema mode with low level of de-judder. Other times, Cinema model without de-judder etc. But with so many options its nearly impossible to chose one that works for you with all (or even most) sources. So, I am stuck switching the picture modes depending on the source and how the source was filmed etc.
Unless the movie and TV industry all agree on very rigid standards, I doubt this will ever change. Most DPs and post engineers will have their preferences over the finished product and I highly doubt they are all willing to stick to a bunch of standards and practice down to that level. Though it would be great if someday, I could adjust my picture settings for all content and not have to switch. But then again, there is gaming as well and that brings in a whole new set of issues. HGiG and tone mapping is a complete disaster as well IMO. I often drop back to SD just to avoid all the issues with gaming ;)
I didn't know filmmakers reduce the judder on post production. Now I understand why some movies are smoother than others. For example, the camera pans are perfectly smooth on the bluray editions of TLOTR
Are you sure? I find the pans when the fellowship is wandering across the mountains pretty harsh. It's my go to material to test for judder...
But yes, ideally the filmmakers do this in camera, not in post production. All that is needed is a shutter speed that is typically half of the frame rate, expose for half the time the frame is shown on screen. You can increase that to exposing as long as possible, but that leads to a look that's too smooth, more like soap opera effect. Can it be done in post? Yeah. But in camera is better.
And to think that there so Commitment to a film like the staff behind Sol Levante who praise HDR and 4K and invite other animations to adopt this technology that lets the artist have more colors, definition and contrast.
You should do a video about Sol levante!! And their interviews
8:43 This is really interesting stuff! 👍
I took your advice and enabled all the corrections on my new Samsung Frame TV. I really did not enjoy the over processed look while watching Oblivion. Watch the intro with and without corrections and you will understand how bad the soap opera effect can be.
Funny how HDTV now promotes(made a sponsored video) filmmaker mode.
Hmm. Maybe it’s an issue with Filmmaker mode itself. I view every film on my 2017 Oled with motion settings disabled and I experience no judder problems - and I would say I’d be sensitive to it.
Some TVs can do judder free 24p, some can't. And they are pushing the "you should disable motion Interpolation. It's ruining your viewing experience" to everyone.
A hate judder especially in reddaed 2 that a can't play with out motion smooth for some reason motion pro is greyed out on my LGC1 in game optimiser mode really think it would help as it has less input lag and artefact
I can't believe it influencer finally had the balls to make video like this.
Thank you for pointing out that low frame rate content is not pretty on modern displays
It literally doesn't look like what actual motion looks like nor does it look like what we've been watching for the past 50 years.
OLED at 24 frames is a stuttery juddery mess. It's like being drunk. There is no inherent blur, only judder.
Some smoothing is needed to make it look like it does on a theatre screen.
All 2020 LG smart tv's have film maker mode you can turn it on and off LG decided to give you that option and not have it auto detect like some other makes I have LG 43 UN81006 here in UK and it is very good, direct back lit too which is better than my previous Panasonic edge lit that packed in after 6 years.