The first thing we’re told in game is that the greater will abandoned us. Later it’s implied that the GW abandoned us a *long* time ago. So who keeps running things? The two fingers.
Judging by the Greater Will's representatives, most of the fingers have checked out a long time ago. The Greater Will, it seems, has abandoned the demigods. Or at least the fingers have.
@@theeldenconspiracy9451 I think Enia has been lied to. Enia is just an interpreter of what the Two Fingers say, and there's nothing stopping the Two Fingers from lying to you.
@@theeldenconspiracy9451 Enia is trapped in the ethereal round table, just like us and Hewg and others with privileged knowledge. She also doesn't care that you're going to burn the tree.
I swear, the smallest channels have some of the BEST elden ring analysis, this is such a fantastic take on the two fingers and the whole "point" of the game in general.
A thought on Finger Maidens: Enia expressly advises us that a sacrifice of one who ENVISIONS the flame is needed. This is interesting when considering the banished Prophets. These individuals would have visions of the burning Erdtree and would be banished as a result of this. Obviously, the Golden Order doesn't want people talking about burning the Erdtree but if these people are having a vision of the flame this makes them viable kindling, meaning someone like Corhyn could be burned. Finger Maidens do three things: provide the Tarnished with Guidance, turn runes into strength, and sacrifice themselves to the flame. That last one may imply that the Two Fingers have been intercepting women exiled from the Lands Between for fire visions and repurposing them to enact those visions. Unless they had some other duty we don't know about this could point to Finger Maidens being a Post-Shattering order. Another interesting point on the Finger Maidens is that they are all dead. I use to think Varre knew we were maidenless because he killed our maiden but the truth seems a bit worse. Every Finger maiden is dead. In all likelihood they were priority targets by every faction regardless of a shared goal (Your Example of Volcano Manor) or outright opposition (anyone pro-Erdtree/Golden Order). Where's the finger maidens servicing any of the other Tarnished, you would think at least Gideon would still have one. Heck, they could have just had one to represent serving the entire Round Table Hold. The only one close is Melina but she only works with us and makes very clear she is NOT a Finger Maiden. An interesting note: Corhyn actually almost fills the role. Based on the above he can provide two of the three functions. He provides some guidance though not much, he also has a vision of flame. But he lacks the ability to turn runes into strength. I think this was likely withheld from him by the Two Fingers because though he has the vision of the flame he has no desire to see it come to pass. He can't be counted on to take that plunge. I feel like the unwritten part of Corhyn's story is the guy who should have been a Finger Maiden but failed. When we meet him, he stands around the hold for a while not knowing what to do with himself and do offerd to teach incantations until he decides to look for Goldmask (WHO IS ALSO MAIDENLESS - Corhyn's own dialogue indirectly points as much out when he first speaks of him being alone). Narratively speaking the Finger Maidens lines up with Fromsoft's tradition of the Fire Keeper in many ways. The Finger Maidens are vessels for a blasphemous vision of flame that seeks to undo the current order. Fire Keepers are vessels of infinite dark writhing under the surface, a power that itself longs to undo the Age of Fire. Both are needed to gain strength to become a Lord while also being pariahs (DS3) is particularly grim about it.
Enya likely knows how to burn the Erdtree because she's been translating the Fingers' words for an implied long, long time. Who knows what conversations she overheard/translated in those countless years? She probably helps us burn it down precisely because of that length of service. If the Erdtree burns down, the manifestation of the Round Table within goes with it, presumably taking Enya and the Fingers as well. If I spent multiple lifetimes stuck translating finger-waggling and watching Tarnished continually fail to achieve anything, then I'd probably be pretty stoked if a competent Tarnished asked me how to just burn it down and be done with it.
11:03 never noticed that Bernhal had made it all the way to the forge of the giants. Between him and Vyke they both strayed because of their maidens. Is Melina being a terrible traveling companion the canonical reason we could become elden lord?
The question is, did he burn the Erdtree? Because that should have happened. But something happened that made Bernahl very very angry. And I don't suppose he was ignorant about burning the Erdtree, so what happened? My theory is that his finger maiden was a dud. Maybe Melina is the only one who can burn the tree. Although, that conflicts with the Fingers earnestly wanting to burn the Erdtree.
@@Xandros999 Actually, more people are viable for kindling than even the finger maidens. In order to be viable for kindling you have to have a vision of the flame. So technically, we could have tossed Cohryn in there because of his prophetic visions. It may be the reason the Prophets who had the visions of a burning Erdtree would get banished, not just because they were spreading unfavorable news but because they themselves could be the kindling of such a fate. If this is the case something interesting to think about is that the Finger Maidens had more to them than just turning runes into strength. In order to be viable they would have to be "one who envisions flame." Looks like the 2 Fingers may have started repurposing banished prophets into maidens at some point. But that makes sense, given what we know of the Finger Maiden's role in society (Guide the Tarnished, turn Runes into strength, BURN) I could believe that title is a post shattering creation. Also, who says Bernhal's maiden was a dud, he can go to Farum Azula and part of Leyndell was already buried in ash when we first got there. Since he didn't unleash Destined Death the Erdtree would burn for a while but the fire would just eventually fade. The tree can't be destroyed at that time but it can be damaged. That damage may have healed or we just can't see it because of the glowing.
The pinky and ring fingers are for “stabilizing” your gaming controller, and your thumb, index, and middle fingers are what brings about chaos (violence) to the game. This way of writing really reminds me of how David Lynch wrote Twin Peaks.
I have my own theory that fits really nicely with this one. I always thought that the Greater Will has actually only abandoned the golden order, and the impenetrable thorns were grown over the entrance to ensure that the only people allowed in would be people willing to force their way in. The only way to gain access to the erdtree is to set it on fire, Goldmask, somebody who had begun to question the golden order, made the journey to the mountaintop of the giants and was rewarded with the mending rune of perfect order, however Brother Corhyn, a devout follower of the golden order, was so distraught at the sight of the erdtree in flames that he appears to commit suicide. Goldmask also happens to be in contact with the tarnished who would inevitably become elden lord, entering the erdtree and potentially using the mending rune he discovers to usher in the age of perfect order, those that violate the golden order seem to be favored by fate. If both these theories are right then the entire religion from the ground up is secretly working against itself to reestablish true order
great vid; considering the emphasis on Marika's actions and words, White Mask Varre's comments about something being wrong with the fingers, and Boggarts line about something being wrong with the Erdtree for a long time, it just makes the Greater Will even more mysterious.
So does this mean the Two Fingers knew what Marika wished for all along? Since she grants grace and can take it away, with its guidance shepherding the Tarnished in-game, implying Marika's will not the Greater Will.
It does seem that Marika had direct involvement in the creation of the Roundtable Hold as an institution. She wanted Hewg to forge a weapon to slay a god. I don't see any obvious misalignment between Marika and the Two Fingers.
Great video! So much food for thought. I don't think we'll ever have a definitive answer as to what it all means because it was purposefully designed to be befuddling. I, for one, belong to the polydactic clan of six fingers and the hobo will.
The flame spells that Coryn sells you mention that the flame is from the prophecy that those with the wheels on their necks were exiled for seeing, didn't they?
Goldmask is fine with burning the tree, but Corhyn isn't - hence their falling out. The fingers (two and three) give me strong Frampt and Kaathe vibes. They've been around since forever, either want a new king(consort) or a lord that heralds the end of all that business, and have a caduceus vibe with e.g. Placidusax's heads.
The last point you made is the most important. I was firmly in the "greater will does not exist camp", but now I see that it doesn't even really matter if it exists or not. You made some great points ,everything makes a little more sense now.
I wonder sometimes if the greater will is less a title and more a literal descriptor - perhaps all the outer gods / forces we see acting on the world are in constant conflict, and when we describe the greater will it is to mean a consensus reached between these forces where in the greater will is decided between them.
I believe there's 2 bernahls' the guy in limgrave is the brother of the guy in volcano manner. Volcano manner Bernal talks about being his brothers keeper during his "prayer" to the greater will.
yeah, it is weird that his armor said he abandoned Grace because of his maiden, but it turns out he also had a brother. There's an entire questline involving Bernahl which was cut out of the game due to time contraints. That might have the answer.
@@theeldenconspiracy9451 My understanding is that his brother was Rykard, as in they were brothers in arms. From his items it seems Rykard placed a great deal of trust in him.
The 2 Fingers & 3 Fingers are actually from real world history, Russian history to be exact. A great deal of the lore & world building in Elden Ring is taken from actual historical events. I teach history & I used the game in some of my seminars. The students loved it.
The two fingers don't want you to burn the erdtree imo: Enia does. Enia feigns disgust, then while the dogmatic fingers lie dormant, she tells you the real path, the path she learned from Marika. Enia was, of course, one of Marika's closest confidantes as the *wetnurse to her children* mentioned in the talisman pouch description. She, like Hewg, has a mission from her God to aid the Tarnished in killing a god and fixing the world, and she pretends to be a leal hound of the fingers.
I Think there might be some politics missing here. If we assume that the Greater Will is a "Ruler" in the Lands between things become very confusing. What I assume it's happening is that "The Greater Will" is a ruler of many ErdTrees. and each Tree needs a Vassal "God" for it's Representative, the Elden Beast. The Greater Will probably cares little for how and why something happens in their domain as long as they rule over it. The Actual Political war in the Lands between a probably being played by The Fingers. Each Empyrian has a Finger and IS a faction. With this The Fingers that we Serve Doesn't want a new Empyrian because they are Marika's 2 finger, for their rule to continue they new a New Consort, and somehow Marika is Manipulating Her/His/Their Fingers to literally waste time on the Tarnished to Prolong this as much as possible. The Other Fingers that we know about are either dead or is Killed in Rannis Quest. But we Don't See the Fingers of Miquela or Malenia. We don't know what is the Goal of their Fingers or if they got rid of them. I Say this because we Get rid of Ranni's Shadow and Marika's Shadow. But we never encounter (or the game mentions) The Existence of the Shadow for Malenia and Miquela. This leads into the DLC Title being "the Shadow of the Erdtree" This implies a lot. The Shadow here might be "the secret": Maybe we will understand the Role of the Fingers on all of this. The Shadow can also implie that the Duo ruler system (Empyrian + Shadow) has more significance than we antecipate. Maybe "The Shadow" of Marika (Maliketh) Was a Ruler of some kind and he was spurged because of Marika's Trangression. and we willunderstand more of the "other side" of this kingdom.
And the game also show us that there is no real difference between a god and a mortal only the fact that we die and they don’t that’s why Marika tried to seal the rune of the death because she knew that was the only thing keeping her from becoming a god …
Some notes: A few instances have text from item descriptions going by too quickly, so either let them hang a little longer or have them over your narration - whichever fits your preference. Also, most of your narration was good, but 8:00 was a good example of why you should always watch your own videos or replay your narrations before finalizing. Not a major issue but extremely noticeable. good vid
The Elden Ring is a fractal reality containing itself. All the symbols are borne of correspondence, but the actual things ARE in correspondence, even through time. The Hand was Marika's hand reaching into the Elden Ring. They became part of it, so they are part of the Lands Between and the story. Same with Radagon's thorns, and everything else that happened to the Elden Ring, like the 4 hammer blows you can see in it from the opening cutscene. The Elden Ring is the same narrative re-occurring with different pieces in the same cosmic time and place, so each age's eclipse runs into each other stories end. It's Fate Eclipsing Meaning. Skip 400 hours of explanation: The Erdtree is Miquella's Needle. And that is also the Elden Ring which is also every other thing that has represented it over the timeline, including the Gloam Eyed Queen. They are all linked by a thread through time and space.
enia is cooler if she acts on her own initiative. i really dont think the two fingers are receiving/transmitting anything other than stale transmissions. or that they are a levelling force which comes in to restructure after an order gets too decadent. i actually think that's backwards: Marika is, or tries to be, the levelling force. i mean there's all this stuff which it seems baseless to take at anything other than face-value. she smashes the elden ring! the elden beast does not like u! all of Marika's "spoken echoes" chart her tending towards a skepticism of Order. there's a chronology in the name of the churches, the first church being...the First Church, and the last, I would tentatively say, being the Minor Erdtree Church-because of the content of the echo, and because the Minor Erdtree is a sapling, a new start. _"I declare mine intent, to search the depths of the Golden Order. Through understanding of the proper way, our faith, our grace, is increased. Those blissful early days of blind belief are long past. My comrades; why must ye falter?"_ She's talking some proto-Goldmask talk. worth remembering that Goldmask's mature philosophy/mending rune seems to tacitly endorse the burning of the Erdtree; Corhyn's ultimate rejection of him gives us this. going back a bit in the chronology of the echoes, at Dectus: _"The Erdtree governs all. The choice is thine. Become one with the Order. Or divest thyself of it. To wallow at the fringes; a powerless upstart."_ And at the Outskirts: _"Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices..."_ The personality this sketches isn't fundamentalist. She's made it out of Plato's cave, so 2 speak, and now she sees the strings. The Order isn't a holy institution to her because she is the institution; it's at that point like an extension of her. She knows the brutality and crudity of it. It's just an exercise of power. Goldmask also makes it out of the cave, but he wants to direct the action differently, seeing it less as an exercise by conscious agents, and more as a deterministic algebra-math acts like this infinitely strong material. don't want to talk abt Goldmask too much. point is, he moves beyond the fundamentalism he helps instate to a more encompassing transcendentalism. and he does so by understanding Marika. i feel like you can go for deep cuts and end up contradicting stuff which is pretty explicit and surface-level. no offense
also i do not think the finger readers are 'in on it'. the finger reader outside Rold literally begs us to turn back: _"Turn back. Ahead lies the Land of the Giants' Flame. And the way forth is forbidden. ... Hear me. The burning of the Erdtree is the first cardinal sin. Doing so will unbind Destined Death, and slay the world itself. ... Who would dare put you up to such a task? Most certainly not the Fingers!"_ now if u are Hawkshaw then u think "Aha, dramatic irony!" but that's such a bad instinct. there isn't anything to say that this isn't entirely literal. you have also here an expression of the Readers' fear and opposition of destined death. meaning the droves of dead readers outside Morgotts room are less likely his doing, and more likely that of the literal black knife assassin having a nap at the end of the trail. and yeah bears repeating: Enia is a more interesting character if she acts on her own. don't make Enia less cool. Enia rules
@@wellawoods1660 I don't disagree with your interpretation. I do think that Enia is acting on her own to an extent. My takes may seem contradictory because the story itself is contradictory. That the Finger Reader at the mountaintops tries to dissuade you is proof of this. You have to defy her in order to complete the game. It's possible the readers themselves are, like the Tarnished, part of a system they don't fully comprehend, and thus have incomplete knowledge. It doesn't mean they don't have agency. Whether Enia is telling you to "finish the job" because she had faith and now changed her mind, or because she has a secret motive, doesn't really change much about the theory itself. That she knows exactly how to burn the Erdtree is suspicious, and directly contradicts how she presents herself.
@@theeldenconspiracy9451 the stuff about the fingers themselves just seems wrong tho. idk. like yeah things are mysterious and unknowable but if they are so unknowable it robs certain images and characters of any power or poignancy. it is a story at the ebd of the day, not a puzzle, not actual history; is attempting to *speak*, not simply to mislead. and for something to speak, certain signs have to have stability. what is the picture of the two fingers in-game? decrepitude, stale-ness, lifeless-ness, something without a face to be appealed to, such that it has to speak through an imperfect proxy. what might that be _saying_ about something in the real world? the elden beast remembrance in the video says it is a manifestation of the very _concept_ of Order. so the answer isn't going to come from enough circumspection about whether ppl really mean what they say; we are talking abt concepts actually _manifesting_ . engage with the concepts!
@@wellawoods1660 Characters or events in stories are only unknowable if it doesn't meet one's arbitrary standard of specificity. This is tangential to it being poignant or powerful. I find it unlikely that the Fingers would hire a team of assassins to keep the Tarnished on the path, if they didn't know where that path would lead. Otherwise, what would be the point? This was the case even when the fingers were "full of vigor." So them getting old and decrepit doesn't really change this. Either the Fingers are "in on it" or they are putting the Tarnished in a double bind, where no choice is correct. This to me, is poignant and powerful enough, because it describes how power structures need to deceive in order to exist.
@@theeldenconspiracy9451 thats the thing tho! the fingers don't know either. after u beat morgott they go into a coma. and again i tbink this is a face value thing, not just so they can get plausible deniability so their proxy (enia) can speak the unspeakable for them. that was actually as far as the plan went. i would venture to say they have no idea what is going on inside the erdtree, besides the fact that marika was imprisoned there. i think of their position in that sense as similar to Saint Urbain. Urbain is this solemn authority throughout DeS, assuring us our slaughter is righteous, and "cleansing" our collected demons souls to make miracles... but when the seal in the nexus opens, all his authority disappears. _"From where does that howl come?! That is no Demon. It sounds more like a poor hungry child. Do you have any idea what it might be?"_ he gets a glimpse at the substance of his divinity, and all he can do is mumble. i have an idea that the fingers are so clueless because the fingers are supposed to be a network, and that network is broken. each is assigned an empyrean and a station above a divine tower, sharing not just information but reasoning power. varre calls them "senile"; i don't think this is as figurative as all that. the fingers have effectively lost huge chunks of their brain, because all of their other relays, their thinking-and-feeling apparatus, are dead(?) or broken down. (i actually think ranni's might be the only one to actually fully die, as the others still seem to have a residual life that lets them convert ur great runes). they are privileged witnesses as far as their assigned empyreans are concerned, but that's as far their authority goes. they're glorified nannies, tattle-tales. representatives of the greater will while they are receiving those transmissions... but when that signal drops off, so do they, and they just do the best they can with this dwindling feedback loop to... make some shit up.
The first thing we’re told in game is that the greater will abandoned us. Later it’s implied that the GW abandoned us a *long* time ago. So who keeps running things? The two fingers.
In Enia's first monologue, she says that the Greater Will has not abandoned the Lands Between, so who do you believe?
@@theeldenconspiracy9451 the endgame item descriptionnn but I hear you
Judging by the Greater Will's representatives, most of the fingers have checked out a long time ago. The Greater Will, it seems, has abandoned the demigods. Or at least the fingers have.
@@theeldenconspiracy9451 I think Enia has been lied to. Enia is just an interpreter of what the Two Fingers say, and there's nothing stopping the Two Fingers from lying to you.
@@theeldenconspiracy9451 Enia is trapped in the ethereal round table, just like us and Hewg and others with privileged knowledge. She also doesn't care that you're going to burn the tree.
I swear, the smallest channels have some of the BEST elden ring analysis, this is such a fantastic take on the two fingers and the whole "point" of the game in general.
Thanks!
A thought on Finger Maidens: Enia expressly advises us that a sacrifice of one who ENVISIONS the flame is needed. This is interesting when considering the banished Prophets. These individuals would have visions of the burning Erdtree and would be banished as a result of this. Obviously, the Golden Order doesn't want people talking about burning the Erdtree but if these people are having a vision of the flame this makes them viable kindling, meaning someone like Corhyn could be burned. Finger Maidens do three things: provide the Tarnished with Guidance, turn runes into strength, and sacrifice themselves to the flame. That last one may imply that the Two Fingers have been intercepting women exiled from the Lands Between for fire visions and repurposing them to enact those visions. Unless they had some other duty we don't know about this could point to Finger Maidens being a Post-Shattering order.
Another interesting point on the Finger Maidens is that they are all dead. I use to think Varre knew we were maidenless because he killed our maiden but the truth seems a bit worse. Every Finger maiden is dead. In all likelihood they were priority targets by every faction regardless of a shared goal (Your Example of Volcano Manor) or outright opposition (anyone pro-Erdtree/Golden Order). Where's the finger maidens servicing any of the other Tarnished, you would think at least Gideon would still have one. Heck, they could have just had one to represent serving the entire Round Table Hold. The only one close is Melina but she only works with us and makes very clear she is NOT a Finger Maiden.
An interesting note: Corhyn actually almost fills the role. Based on the above he can provide two of the three functions. He provides some guidance though not much, he also has a vision of flame. But he lacks the ability to turn runes into strength. I think this was likely withheld from him by the Two Fingers because though he has the vision of the flame he has no desire to see it come to pass. He can't be counted on to take that plunge. I feel like the unwritten part of Corhyn's story is the guy who should have been a Finger Maiden but failed. When we meet him, he stands around the hold for a while not knowing what to do with himself and do offerd to teach incantations until he decides to look for Goldmask (WHO IS ALSO MAIDENLESS - Corhyn's own dialogue indirectly points as much out when he first speaks of him being alone).
Narratively speaking the Finger Maidens lines up with Fromsoft's tradition of the Fire Keeper in many ways. The Finger Maidens are vessels for a blasphemous vision of flame that seeks to undo the current order. Fire Keepers are vessels of infinite dark writhing under the surface, a power that itself longs to undo the Age of Fire. Both are needed to gain strength to become a Lord while also being pariahs (DS3) is particularly grim about it.
Enya likely knows how to burn the Erdtree because she's been translating the Fingers' words for an implied long, long time. Who knows what conversations she overheard/translated in those countless years?
She probably helps us burn it down precisely because of that length of service. If the Erdtree burns down, the manifestation of the Round Table within goes with it, presumably taking Enya and the Fingers as well. If I spent multiple lifetimes stuck translating finger-waggling and watching Tarnished continually fail to achieve anything, then I'd probably be pretty stoked if a competent Tarnished asked me how to just burn it down and be done with it.
Good Point.
11:03 never noticed that Bernhal had made it all the way to the forge of the giants. Between him and Vyke they both strayed because of their maidens. Is Melina being a terrible traveling companion the canonical reason we could become elden lord?
The question is, did he burn the Erdtree? Because that should have happened. But something happened that made Bernahl very very angry. And I don't suppose he was ignorant about burning the Erdtree, so what happened?
My theory is that his finger maiden was a dud. Maybe Melina is the only one who can burn the tree. Although, that conflicts with the Fingers earnestly wanting to burn the Erdtree.
@@Xandros999 Actually, more people are viable for kindling than even the finger maidens. In order to be viable for kindling you have to have a vision of the flame. So technically, we could have tossed Cohryn in there because of his prophetic visions. It may be the reason the Prophets who had the visions of a burning Erdtree would get banished, not just because they were spreading unfavorable news but because they themselves could be the kindling of such a fate.
If this is the case something interesting to think about is that the Finger Maidens had more to them than just turning runes into strength. In order to be viable they would have to be "one who envisions flame." Looks like the 2 Fingers may have started repurposing banished prophets into maidens at some point. But that makes sense, given what we know of the Finger Maiden's role in society (Guide the Tarnished, turn Runes into strength, BURN) I could believe that title is a post shattering creation.
Also, who says Bernhal's maiden was a dud, he can go to Farum Azula and part of Leyndell was already buried in ash when we first got there. Since he didn't unleash Destined Death the Erdtree would burn for a while but the fire would just eventually fade. The tree can't be destroyed at that time but it can be damaged. That damage may have healed or we just can't see it because of the glowing.
The pinky and ring fingers are for “stabilizing” your gaming controller, and your thumb, index, and middle fingers are what brings about chaos (violence) to the game.
This way of writing really reminds me of how David Lynch wrote Twin Peaks.
I have my own theory that fits really nicely with this one. I always thought that the Greater Will has actually only abandoned the golden order, and the impenetrable thorns were grown over the entrance to ensure that the only people allowed in would be people willing to force their way in. The only way to gain access to the erdtree is to set it on fire, Goldmask, somebody who had begun to question the golden order, made the journey to the mountaintop of the giants and was rewarded with the mending rune of perfect order, however Brother Corhyn, a devout follower of the golden order, was so distraught at the sight of the erdtree in flames that he appears to commit suicide. Goldmask also happens to be in contact with the tarnished who would inevitably become elden lord, entering the erdtree and potentially using the mending rune he discovers to usher in the age of perfect order, those that violate the golden order seem to be favored by fate. If both these theories are right then the entire religion from the ground up is secretly working against itself to reestablish true order
I like this theory. Goldmask is a fascinating character. I've seen many contradictory theories about what his goal ultimately is.
great vid; considering the emphasis on Marika's actions and words, White Mask Varre's comments about something being wrong with the fingers, and Boggarts line about something being wrong with the Erdtree for a long time, it just makes the Greater Will even more mysterious.
this is the kind of awesome vid that makes me instantly sub! :)
Thanks!
Great video, great theory! It really explains a lot. Thank you for your hard work
Lol what made me go head over heels in love with this game was the fact that it was actually a gigantic two fingers thing.
i love your intro man so good
So does this mean the Two Fingers knew what Marika wished for all along? Since she grants grace and can take it away, with its guidance shepherding the Tarnished in-game, implying Marika's will not the Greater Will.
It does seem that Marika had direct involvement in the creation of the Roundtable Hold as an institution. She wanted Hewg to forge a weapon to slay a god. I don't see any obvious misalignment between Marika and the Two Fingers.
More great stuff to ponder! Thanks. 😊👍💜
Great video! So much food for thought. I don't think we'll ever have a definitive answer as to what it all means because it was purposefully designed to be befuddling. I, for one, belong to the polydactic clan of six fingers and the hobo will.
The flame spells that Coryn sells you mention that the flame is from the prophecy that those with the wheels on their necks were exiled for seeing, didn't they?
Goldmask is fine with burning the tree, but Corhyn isn't - hence their falling out.
The fingers (two and three) give me strong Frampt and Kaathe vibes. They've been around since forever, either want a new king(consort) or a lord that heralds the end of all that business, and have a caduceus vibe with e.g. Placidusax's heads.
The last point you made is the most important. I was firmly in the "greater will does not exist camp", but now I see that it doesn't even really matter if it exists or not. You made some great points ,everything makes a little more sense now.
I wonder sometimes if the greater will is less a title and more a literal descriptor - perhaps all the outer gods / forces we see acting on the world are in constant conflict, and when we describe the greater will it is to mean a consensus reached between these forces where in the greater will is decided between them.
Good video. Thank you. Very well, good chap. Have an Estus on me.
I believe there's 2 bernahls' the guy in limgrave is the brother of the guy in volcano manner. Volcano manner Bernal talks about being his brothers keeper during his "prayer" to the greater will.
"Inheritor of my brothers will" is an oft overlooked piece of dialog.
yeah, it is weird that his armor said he abandoned Grace because of his maiden, but it turns out he also had a brother. There's an entire questline involving Bernahl which was cut out of the game due to time contraints. That might have the answer.
@@theeldenconspiracy9451 My understanding is that his brother was Rykard, as in they were brothers in arms. From his items it seems Rykard placed a great deal of trust in him.
@@Xandros999 That's interesting, I hadn't thought of that. He did get the scepter somewhere.
I thought Vyke was his brother, as Vyke is the dragons’ champion and Bernahl is the champion of Beasts, both lost their maidens, etc.
The 2 Fingers & 3 Fingers are actually from real world history, Russian history to be exact. A great deal of the lore & world building in Elden Ring is taken from actual historical events. I teach history & I used the game in some of my seminars. The students loved it.
Could they be described as a "Shadow Wizard Money Gang"?
Brilliant vid!
The two fingers don't want you to burn the erdtree imo: Enia does. Enia feigns disgust, then while the dogmatic fingers lie dormant, she tells you the real path, the path she learned from Marika. Enia was, of course, one of Marika's closest confidantes as the *wetnurse to her children* mentioned in the talisman pouch description. She, like Hewg, has a mission from her God to aid the Tarnished in killing a god and fixing the world, and she pretends to be a leal hound of the fingers.
I didn't know that about the talisman pouch. That is very interesting. Thanks!
I Think there might be some politics missing here.
If we assume that the Greater Will is a "Ruler" in the Lands between things become very confusing. What I assume it's happening is that "The Greater Will" is a ruler of many ErdTrees. and each Tree needs a Vassal "God" for it's Representative, the Elden Beast. The Greater Will probably cares little for how and why something happens in their domain as long as they rule over it. The Actual Political war in the Lands between a probably being played by The Fingers. Each Empyrian has a Finger and IS a faction.
With this The Fingers that we Serve Doesn't want a new Empyrian because they are Marika's 2 finger, for their rule to continue they new a New Consort, and somehow Marika is Manipulating Her/His/Their Fingers to literally waste time on the Tarnished to Prolong this as much as possible.
The Other Fingers that we know about are either dead or is Killed in Rannis Quest.
But we Don't See the Fingers of Miquela or Malenia. We don't know what is the Goal of their Fingers or if they got rid of them. I Say this because we Get rid of Ranni's Shadow and Marika's Shadow. But we never encounter (or the game mentions) The Existence of the Shadow for Malenia and Miquela.
This leads into the DLC Title being "the Shadow of the Erdtree"
This implies a lot.
The Shadow here might be "the secret": Maybe we will understand the Role of the Fingers on all of this.
The Shadow can also implie that the Duo ruler system (Empyrian + Shadow) has more significance than we antecipate. Maybe "The Shadow" of Marika (Maliketh) Was a Ruler of some kind and he was spurged because of Marika's Trangression. and we willunderstand more of the "other side" of this kingdom.
I think the round table hold is in the past so the two fingers in there is just a memory/can’t connect to the greater will
Brilliant vid.
I love the 90's cable tv show/educational video opening and especially love the Tarnished wearing the Mirror Helm instead of a tin foil hat 😂
Imagine if we had a ✨DLC✨ that explained exactly how the fingers were made so we could have an even grander conspiracy about it 🥺🙏
Try Fingers But Hole
And the game also show us that there is no real difference between a god and a mortal only the fact that we die and they don’t that’s why Marika tried to seal the rune of the death because she knew that was the only thing keeping her from becoming a god …
I like this description of the story. Marika was once a regular numen after all.
Some notes:
A few instances have text from item descriptions going by too quickly, so either let them hang a little longer or have them over your narration - whichever fits your preference.
Also, most of your narration was good, but 8:00 was a good example of why you should always watch your own videos or replay your narrations before finalizing. Not a major issue but extremely noticeable.
good vid
I love your videos
The Elden Ring is a fractal reality containing itself. All the symbols are borne of correspondence, but the actual things ARE in correspondence, even through time.
The Hand was Marika's hand reaching into the Elden Ring. They became part of it, so they are part of the Lands Between and the story. Same with Radagon's thorns, and everything else that happened to the Elden Ring, like the 4 hammer blows you can see in it from the opening cutscene. The Elden Ring is the same narrative re-occurring with different pieces in the same cosmic time and place, so each age's eclipse runs into each other stories end. It's Fate Eclipsing Meaning.
Skip 400 hours of explanation: The Erdtree is Miquella's Needle. And that is also the Elden Ring which is also every other thing that has represented it over the timeline, including the Gloam Eyed Queen. They are all linked by a thread through time and space.
Smoking doinks out in amish
This tarnished has been sponsored.
Your vocal audio isn't very balanced out with the game volume, otherwise great video
why is it always finger?
enia is cooler if she acts on her own initiative. i really dont think the two fingers are receiving/transmitting anything other than stale transmissions. or that they are a levelling force which comes in to restructure after an order gets too decadent. i actually think that's backwards: Marika is, or tries to be, the levelling force. i mean there's all this stuff which it seems baseless to take at anything other than face-value. she smashes the elden ring! the elden beast does not like u! all of Marika's "spoken echoes" chart her tending towards a skepticism of Order. there's a chronology in the name of the churches, the first church being...the First Church, and the last, I would tentatively say, being the Minor Erdtree Church-because of the content of the echo, and because the Minor Erdtree is a sapling, a new start.
_"I declare mine intent, to search the depths of the Golden Order. Through understanding of the proper way, our faith, our grace, is increased. Those blissful early days of blind belief are long past. My comrades; why must ye falter?"_
She's talking some proto-Goldmask talk. worth remembering that Goldmask's mature philosophy/mending rune seems to tacitly endorse the burning of the Erdtree; Corhyn's ultimate rejection of him gives us this.
going back a bit in the chronology of the echoes, at Dectus:
_"The Erdtree governs all. The choice is thine. Become one with the Order. Or divest thyself of it. To wallow at the fringes; a powerless upstart."_
And at the Outskirts:
_"Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices..."_
The personality this sketches isn't fundamentalist. She's made it out of Plato's cave, so 2 speak, and now she sees the strings. The Order isn't a holy institution to her because she is the institution; it's at that point like an extension of her. She knows the brutality and crudity of it. It's just an exercise of power. Goldmask also makes it out of the cave, but he wants to direct the action differently, seeing it less as an exercise by conscious agents, and more as a deterministic algebra-math acts like this infinitely strong material. don't want to talk abt Goldmask too much. point is, he moves beyond the fundamentalism he helps instate to a more encompassing transcendentalism. and he does so by understanding Marika. i feel like you can go for deep cuts and end up contradicting stuff which is pretty explicit and surface-level. no offense
also i do not think the finger readers are 'in on it'. the finger reader outside Rold literally begs us to turn back:
_"Turn back. Ahead lies the Land of the Giants' Flame. And the way forth is forbidden. ... Hear me. The burning of the Erdtree is the first cardinal sin. Doing so will unbind Destined Death, and slay the world itself. ... Who would dare put you up to such a task? Most certainly not the Fingers!"_
now if u are Hawkshaw then u think "Aha, dramatic irony!" but that's such a bad instinct. there isn't anything to say that this isn't entirely literal. you have also here an expression of the Readers' fear and opposition of destined death. meaning the droves of dead readers outside Morgotts room are less likely his doing, and more likely that of the literal black knife assassin having a nap at the end of the trail.
and yeah bears repeating: Enia is a more interesting character if she acts on her own. don't make Enia less cool. Enia rules
@@wellawoods1660 I don't disagree with your interpretation. I do think that Enia is acting on her own to an extent.
My takes may seem contradictory because the story itself is contradictory. That the Finger Reader at the mountaintops tries to dissuade you is proof of this. You have to defy her in order to complete the game. It's possible the readers themselves are, like the Tarnished, part of a system they don't fully comprehend, and thus have incomplete knowledge. It doesn't mean they don't have agency.
Whether Enia is telling you to "finish the job" because she had faith and now changed her mind, or because she has a secret motive, doesn't really change much about the theory itself. That she knows exactly how to burn the Erdtree is suspicious, and directly contradicts how she presents herself.
@@theeldenconspiracy9451 the stuff about the fingers themselves just seems wrong tho. idk. like yeah things are mysterious and unknowable but if they are so unknowable it robs certain images and characters of any power or poignancy. it is a story at the ebd of the day, not a puzzle, not actual history; is attempting to *speak*, not simply to mislead. and for something to speak, certain signs have to have stability. what is the picture of the two fingers in-game? decrepitude, stale-ness, lifeless-ness, something without a face to be appealed to, such that it has to speak through an imperfect proxy. what might that be _saying_ about something in the real world? the elden beast remembrance in the video says it is a manifestation of the very _concept_ of Order. so the answer isn't going to come from enough circumspection about whether ppl really mean what they say; we are talking abt concepts actually _manifesting_ . engage with the concepts!
@@wellawoods1660 Characters or events in stories are only unknowable if it doesn't meet one's arbitrary standard of specificity. This is tangential to it being poignant or powerful.
I find it unlikely that the Fingers would hire a team of assassins to keep the Tarnished on the path, if they didn't know where that path would lead. Otherwise, what would be the point?
This was the case even when the fingers were "full of vigor." So them getting old and decrepit doesn't really change this.
Either the Fingers are "in on it" or they are putting the Tarnished in a double bind, where no choice is correct. This to me, is poignant and powerful enough, because it describes how power structures need to deceive in order to exist.
@@theeldenconspiracy9451 thats the thing tho! the fingers don't know either. after u beat morgott they go into a coma. and again i tbink this is a face value thing, not just so they can get plausible deniability so their proxy (enia) can speak the unspeakable for them. that was actually as far as the plan went. i would venture to say they have no idea what is going on inside the erdtree, besides the fact that marika was imprisoned there. i think of their position in that sense as similar to Saint Urbain. Urbain is this solemn authority throughout DeS, assuring us our slaughter is righteous, and "cleansing" our collected demons souls to make miracles... but when the seal in the nexus opens, all his authority disappears. _"From where does that howl come?! That is no Demon. It sounds more like a poor hungry child. Do you have any idea what it might be?"_ he gets a glimpse at the substance of his divinity, and all he can do is mumble. i have an idea that the fingers are so clueless because the fingers are supposed to be a network, and that network is broken. each is assigned an empyrean and a station above a divine tower, sharing not just information but reasoning power. varre calls them "senile"; i don't think this is as figurative as all that. the fingers have effectively lost huge chunks of their brain, because all of their other relays, their thinking-and-feeling apparatus, are dead(?) or broken down. (i actually think ranni's might be the only one to actually fully die, as the others still seem to have a residual life that lets them convert ur great runes). they are privileged witnesses as far as their assigned empyreans are concerned, but that's as far their authority goes. they're glorified nannies, tattle-tales. representatives of the greater will while they are receiving those transmissions... but when that signal drops off, so do they, and they just do the best they can with this dwindling feedback loop to... make some shit up.