I'm not a sailor, but I use the soft shackle on my camping hammock rigging. I've been using the diamond knot, I have tied it many times for myself and friends. However; seeing the strength of the figure 8, I guess I'll be using that from now on. It's quicker and simpler to tie, and hammocks have far less stress and strain compared to sailing applications.. A BIG thank you. I'm gonna subscribe just incase you come up with other handy dandy "things" I can plagiarize.
Glad you like it! You should check out this video where I use an overhand soft shackle to lift the front end of my car, so they may be strong enough for a hammock too! The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
The big advantage of the diamond knot is that the knot ends up bigger, makes it less likely to whip loose. You’re basically always going to have at least full line strength from any of these things, so unless you want to live dangerously by, say, using a 4mm soft shackle on 5mm line, the MBS is just not all that interesting.
After watching a lot of videos to make a soft shackle I discovered yours. This is the easiest way so far so thank you. I intend to make them for hammock camping.
Another option which is simple and strong is the Ashley stopper knot. It seems well suited to dyneema. I found this on another channel called Bottom UP- Boats. I'm now subscribed to both!
Thanks - it’s been fun and I’m glad people are getting something out of them! I’m putting one together about tying a soft shackle into the end of an existing line, which we’ve been using for spinnaker sheets.
It's brilliant and safe to use. I also like the way you test it. I think i have an even easier methode without going through the line. You bend the line in half and make the knot. To close the loop, you use a knot that kitesurfers use to attach their lines to the kite. I have no issues with it untill now. And as you tested your methode it also proves that my methode is not bad. It's super easy and cheap as you said it. Its also easy if you have to make a quick fix on the field. But i have to admit your methode is 100% bulletproof, mine a little bit less.
This is brilliant - thanks!! I’m new to soft shackles on our cruising trimaran and buying yacht shop shackles has been quite expensive. This will certainly help👍
@@SailingTipsCa I just made 6 of them with 6mm Marlow D12 and the double overhand knot. Used two of our winches to really tighten them and they’re now holding up our barber hauler line off the deck. Will make a bigger one tomorrow for our spin and Code 0 aft blocks as well - thanks again!👍
@@SailingTipsCaAt 09:32 you mention (and picture) using a soft shackle at the mainsheet attachment for the boom… could you please elaborate? How do you stop the loop sliding on the boom / how did you fix it’s position?
@@PN_48 Good question! The soft shackle passes through both the main sheet shackle below the boom and the sail clew ring above the beam, both of which can float somewhat fore and aft, however the final position at any one point in time is controlled by the sail draft (curvature) forward of the shackle and the outhaul line connected to the sail clew aft of the shackle. In other words, it’s all about managing the position of the sail clew fore and aft with the outhaul, and up and down with mainsheet tension. Does this help?
Thanks so much! Did you see this one where I use these soft shackles to lift my car? The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
Hey man great video! I appreciate the real tests! I saw another video of making dyneema soft shackles, the best I’ve seen, more complicated than yours but still no difficult knots. Do brummel splices in each end, bury the tails, do the little off-centre tuck thru loop as with yours, then tie the two loop ends in an overhand knot, pass the free end thru both loops to make a huge captive knot that can’t slip. I’ll get the link
@@grandmasterflash213 For some reason UA-cam doesn’t like links to other channels in comments - it seems to auto-delete them! I’ve seen the one you’re talking about though and it looks pretty bomb-proof!!!
@@SailingTipsCa We sailors use the figure 8, but I had no idea it was a stronger knot under loads. I use it because it is easier to untie! Who knew it was stronger also!? Thanks again
@@Lordmacsmith I suspect a double overhand knot is also better than a single overhand knot as a stopper although I haven’t tested it with the press yet…
Unbelievably quick and easy , and more that strong enough for the loads on my boat. I've seen seen a method where the unfinished ends a buried into the line - it's tidy and provides more thickness in the line. I'm thinking of trying that with the double figure 8, It would be interesting to see details of how you've used the shackles. I'm thinking of using one on an asym clew with new core dependent sheets. Hoping to make as smooth a connection as possible to avoid catching on the forestay. any tips would be appreciated
Thanks! Yes burying the ends back in does make for a stronger result and tidier finish, but these are so quick and easy that you can make them in the field as an emergency jury rig. I'll also do a video on creative uses of soft shackles - good idea! And I do also have a suggestion on how to make assym sheets using a simple technique - I'll do a video on that too. For the kite attachment, basically feed the Dyneema through itself, then add a simple figure eight. Feed the figure eight through the clew ring, and into the Dyneema loop which tightens on itself. It's like an integral soft shackle in the end of the line.
I'm about to test a double fisherman knot for easy soft shackles. If you bury the tailsback into the rope it sold should increase strength a lot too (bigger bend radius of noose)
When pushed really hard soft shackles typically break adjacent to the knot where the noose attaches, so burying the ends back in creates extra thickness there and helps mitigate that problem!
I just came off building a bunch of these. I must say that the diamond knot is really not difficult to tie at all. For a highly capable guy like yourself that can perform all these hydraulic break strength tests and sail a race boat the lanyard knot is pretty simple. Id recommend the diamond lanyard over the overhand. The button knot is a bit tougher so the diamond lanyard is a nice compromise.
I totally agree - if you can tie a Diamond knot then do it! I first tied soft shackles with an overhand knot a couple of years ago shortly after we got our F-82R trimaran when I was experimenting with different spinnaker and screacher sheeting locations on the aft beam and wanted something where I could easily adjust the length of the shackle on the water. It truly was a jury rig and I was expecting them to blow up on the first sail, but they didn’t. Six months later, we blew up the diamond knot soft shackle that connects the main sheet to the boom (due to chafe and not inherent strength of the shackle or knot). I didn’t have a long enough diamond knot shackle on hand to replace it but I did have a long overhand shackle on the boat, so I used it, also expecting it to blow up due to the higher loads, but again it didn’t. For the next two years I kept using these overhand knot shackles in progressively heavier conditions with no issues whatsoever when I saw a forum post asking “Can you tie a soft shackle with something simpler than a diamond knot, like an overhand knot?” I had the answer and it was a resounding “yes”, so I decided to do a UA-cam video on it and post the video in the response. But before I posted the video I thought I had better do some empirical strength testing. So the progression was somewhat backwards to what you might expect 1) jury rig 2) field testing 3) empirical testing. Regardless, I will agree that if you can tie a Diamond knot then stick with that!
@@SailingTipsCa yeah when i went with the diamond i was wondering if i left something on the table by not using a button...but if a get that reduced rating...of 3000lbs?....did it matter? I need maybe 200 lbs...and that buttons a pain!...so yeah i take your point as well
I’ve tied button knot soft shackles, and they’re *fine*, but I cannot get that knot into my head. The diamond knot, on the other hand, is easy to tie by heart - I even did some experimentation in how I could do it wrong and what to avoid. Afaik the difference in the strength is pretty much entirely because with the button knot, the noose goes around four strands instead of two. Makes you wonder whether you can’t just bury a short piece of filler inside the two strands at that location and get the same benefit.
I have used the flat overhand knot as the button knot on multiple soft shackles on my Alberg 30 (including my jib sheet to genoa clew and mainsheet to traveler shackle) for several years. When tying the flat overhand knot (ABOK 1410) I leave a longer tail as recommended by European mountain climbers. Also, instead of a simple Brummel eye splice, might a bury splice be more secure in a flogging situation (ie jib sheets)? Excellent instructions, thank you.
Glad to hear you’ve successfully used these too! Yes a bury splice might be better in some situations but I haven’t found the simple eye splice to be problematic yet… Good tip on leaving the tails long!
Thanks - glad you liked it! Dyneema seems to have excellent UV resistance and I have several pieces that have been outside for years and still work great!
Yes that’s the easiest/strongest combo IMHO! That said I did manage to lift the front of my car with a simple overhand knot soft shackle, so still pretty strong! The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
It would be very interesting if you could try the Ashley stopper knot used in a soft shackle. People are obviously using it, with many examples of that in the comments here alone. I have done extensive searches, but can't find anyone that have done any tests at all. Nothing. It worries me a bit that it's used seemingly without anything saying it's a knot suitable for Dyneema.
It's amazing that the dyneema soft shackle works with a figure-of-eight knot. So a much more complicated diamond or other comparable knots are not necessary at all?
I know - I often don’t even bother with the double figure-of-eight and just use a double overhand knot! Maybe the fancy knots are like a secret handshake or something like that! A freshly tied double overhand or figure-of-eight knot will pull out instead of actually breaking the line, which I think the secret handshakers were afraid of, but most people don’t apply that much load. And once they are well-set with a few good load cycles they will be much less likely to pull out. I doubt the double overhand soft shackles I’ve been using for my main sheet, spinnaker, and screacher blocks would pull out now…
Uprating the size of the line used for the shackle could easily make up for the difference in strength too. I was planning to use 3mm in some places on my boat as it will handle the load, but bumping up a mm or two will make them easier to handle in addition to adding cushion to the breaking load.
wow, stumbled upon this and I learned a lot. Thank you! Actually I use dyneema here on my farm for various things, but also normal steel shackles. They have to retire now! 🙂
Glad you liked it! Did you see this video where I lift the front end of my car with a Dyneema soft shackle? The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
Yes could definitely use fids!!! I improvised with a pen because most people have those lying around, although they are also becoming increasingly rare!
If you tie an ashley's bend (abok 1452) and then capsize the tail "hole" over the head "hole", that should make a two strand diamond knot. I guess the trick is to find the simplest two strand stopper that is very stable. I'm nervous about the figure 8 as a two strand stopper. The climbers have had bad experiences with that as a "flat bend" where you pull the legs apart and load it at 180 degrees to get a flat side that will slide across obstructions or ridges. The standard way is with an overhand knot, known as the European Death Knot. Some people were worried about the overhand knot capsizing at a low load and tried the figure 8 instead. It capsized at a much lower load and rolled off the end of the tails, making it worse, not better. I realize this application is not the 180 degree loading, but more of a stopper loading at zero degrees, but I would want more testing of rolling on perhaps not perfectly set figure 8 knots to see how sensitive it is. In the EDK vs Fig8 testing, quality of set was a critical factor. I have a strong interest in making soft shackles in the field for camping. You can save a lot of weight by carrying a few feet of amsteel blue type cord instead of a bunch of aluminum carabiners that you might use in slinging bear bags, improvising suspended bedding and things like that. Suspended bedding tends to get some harsh loads from shallow suspension angles multiplying the midway load a lot.
You’re absolutely right that the key is to find a two-strand stopper that is both very stable and easy to tie. I’ll look into your Ashley bend recommendation. You’re also absolutely right that a flat figure eight bend performs poorly where you pull the two legs apart, because it rolls over itself and comes apart. We actually did a test of this versus a double overhand knot, where we took two strands of climber’s rope, put a double figure eight in one end, double overhand knot in the other, and tried to pull them apart from the middle with a hydraulic jack. The results were exactly as you described - the overhand knot performed far better in this application. We have it on video so I just posted it as a short (ua-cam.com/users/shortsLjR5JRGyaxI). I was reluctant to do so previously because it’s not a typical sailing knot or configuration, and I thought it might confuse people, but I have it so why not!?!? On the other hand the figure 8 appears to perform better as a stopper knot, particularly in slippery Dyneema applications, where the legs are not pulled apart. All of that said, I just use the double overhand knot in the soft shackles on my boat because they’re strong enough for my needs. Thanks for your comments!!!
@@SailingTipsCa Thanks for the clip. That's fun to see! I know a few simple single strand stoppers with good performance, but most of the big, strong double strand stoppers take some work. For more security and more work, a lanyard knot (a.k.a. bosun's whistle knot, abok 787) might be really secure. I'm comfortable with tying it because it is just a double carrick bend with the most obvious follow throughs. There's also a fun sort of finger jig technique for tying it that usually goes along with the boatswain's whistle knot demo. But you're right, unless you're really close to the line strength, it doesn't matter that much. My hammock strap system is using brummel spliced eyes and a long friction tube adjuster in hollow braid amsteel blue, so it already has a pretty efficient build so I'm using minimal sized line for that . Field built is usually over-sized for simplicity. I probably just don't like overhand knots much. I wonder how the double fisherman's bend (a.k.a. grapevine - abok 1415) in the tail performs. it's really easy to tie. That was one of the fixes to improve strength/stability on the overhand flat bend in the climber's investigation. You're never going to untie it after full loading though.
I make similar to these the only difference is I make an Ashley Stopper knot (it’s tricky with 2 lines but can be done) as these are larger than normal and much easier than tying a diamond.
This video (by somebody else) gives you a good basic idea: ua-cam.com/video/a9CukNwBsJo/v-deo.html The only difference is that the soft shackle has two bitter ends instead of a loop but the knot technique is the same.
Do you have any experience using this type of soft-shackle in a situation where the load frequently changes? An example would be a drogue where there is load and then no load. 🤔
@@ianshaw23 Good question! I haven’t used it on a drogue, but do use it for main, screacher, and spinnaker sheet blocks that have constant load while the sail is flying but do go slack and can get thrashed about when tacking and gybing. These kinds of variable loads actually seem to help set the knot and I’ve never had an issue with one flogging itself loose.
I am no expert in knots. One thing I have seen in off roading test videos is instead of having the knot in the middle of the connection it is placed at the end. In testing they did, it is a stronger connection
Definitely lots of ways to make this stronger! But Dyneema is so strong that this technique is still more than strong enough for many applications as I show in this video: The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
@@shaggyrandy1264 I totally get it - I’m much more of a visual/conceptual learner too! If there’s too much text and no pictures my eyes just glaze over…
There's a UA-cam channel...'how knot 2' that has a lab set up for these kind of tests. They mostly test rock climbing gear and slack line anchors but have very accurate measurements. Perhaps you could work with them to get more precision. And you could easily try many knot configurations. I use a larkshead knot in lieu of your awl poke through step. Much easier but I've never tested for strength.
Yes I’ve seen some of their tests on that great test rig they have - good suggestion! Not sure if you’ve seen my other crude test of this knot where I lift the front of my car? ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
Thanks. Would these work for reefing a sail? Or is there a better faster singlehanded reefing method? I'm a fairly new sailor. It's for an OzGoose dingy.
You can definitely use for reefing - I explain one approach in my reefing video at ua-cam.com/video/zUJ_eQU6z5Q/v-deo.html. I use this shackle for the third reef on our F-82R trimaran, because it's very deep and I don't want to leave those really long reef lines rigged all the time. You generally need to lower the sail to get control of it, then insert the soft shackle and re-hoist. If you leave it partly raised the flogging may make it difficult to get control of the clew, although the OzGoose is a pretty small boat so you might be able to leave it partly hoisted. You could also try leaving the soft shackles inserted into the reefing cringles and secured with a small piece of whipping twine so they they don't fall out. Have you talked to other OzGoose sailors to see what they do?
Hi, I just discover that the « biggest » problem of dyneema is that it expand in cold weather. Have you experienced that? What is your take on this? Thanks for your insight
I haven’t really noticed or found it to be a problem. We use Dyneema stays for our mast and bowsprit, plus lots of other things. I know lots of other boats that use Dyneema rigging too and they haven’t said anything about temperature sensitivity either. But it’s also not that cold in the winter or hot in the summer here (West Coast BC Canada) so maybe a bigger problem in other places? Hope this helps!
Working 18 years as an Australian Army parachute rigger, if we did not want a not to slip we tied thumb knots in the running ends. I can’t see how that would not work for the dyneema??? Just my 2 cents worth.
You mean like this? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhand_knot#/media/File:Overhandknot.jpg I've seen people use that technique in finishing net lashings with Dyneema so why not?
The stats I've seen with the Diamond knot are higher than your quote, I think 170%-200%%, and with the button knot and leads buried in the line, 230%. Nevertheless, what you have is certainly easier to tie and very useful. Much quicker to put together in a pinch.
I didn’t actually test the Diamond knot myself but used the figures from this website: www.balancecommunity.com/blogs/slack-science/a-comparison-of-soft-shackle-methods. Burying the tails back into the line will definitely increase the strength, also for the overhand knot. What I did instead was start with the easiest soft shackles to tie and then test to see if they were “good enough”.
You can greatly increase the strength of this by tying the knot on a pair of brummel splices at the ends and then looping the knot completely through the two eye splices. The bury must extend a couple of inches beyond the beginning of the knot. This requires more line, and if this breaks, it will break in the loop. See ua-cam.com/video/jU_mmdbQeCQ/v-deo.html
Yes that variant is much stronger, and beefs up the weak points adjacent to the knot as you noted! I did some fun practical testing of the “weak” variant in this video: The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
Interesting video. I can understand the idea of chasing a dream “tie a simple knot on slippery line”. What confuses me is using a knot that slips (not really a knot, a couple of bends on a line) in a critical control system on a boat ( i.e. holding your mainsheet rigging to the boom). Ok you can mitigate that by using larger diameter dyneema at higher cost, but why? Or.. you can study the way to tie a knot that does not slip. I had the joy of meeting a master rigger Mr. Brian Toss at a boat show. He demonstrated his knot creation using dyneema to tie soft shackles. I tie soft shackles using his knot. When tested on a commercial stress machine designed to OSHA certify rigging for commercial rigging use, my SK78 Amsteel soft shackle made using 3/16 diameter line failed at 10,800 lbs of force. The break occurred in the middle of the shackle line, not the knot or the end loop. This convinced me that the knot design had zero failure. The failure point was in the way the 12plait threads constricted over the square buried ends of the knot in the line. An easy fix. I tapered the buried ends. Using the correct tool for the job is always better than making do, for a craftsman or seaman.
It’s really useful to know how much strength you actually need for any given application so you can size everything appropriately, including lines, blocks, and knots! I think it’s completely amazing that a 3/16 soft shackle can hold up to 10,800 lbs, but for most boats under 40’ / 12m most sailing loads are less than a third of that. To put things in perspective my “weak” soft shackle is still strong enough to lift a compact car. The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html Also sailing loads tend to be more dynamic than the smooth pull of a hydraulic press and those dynamic loads tend to set knots rather than pulling them out. All the overhand bend soft shackles on my boat are rock hard and none has ever failed. Rather the only Dyneema failures I’ve ever had on my boat were due to chafe.
I’ve used Dyneema hanks on synthetic and stainless rod forestays, but never on stainless wire. That said it would probably work too, as stainless wire is also fairly smooth when in good condition, the loads on the hanks aren’t that high (relative to other applications) and Dyneema is quite abrasion resistant. The main type of Dyneema hank I’ve used had a Dyneema loop sewn into one side of the sail, which loops around the forestay, and is captured by a Velcro closure sewn into the other side, like Velcro shoes for kids. I’ve only ever had Dyneema abrade through on sharp edges, but never on anything rounded. Do you have grommets on your sail?
This method of overhand knot soft shackle makes loops on the tails and puts them over the knot. That stops the knot from rolling undone. ua-cam.com/video/jU_mmdbQeCQ/v-deo.html Break tests at the end too!
You could use stainless, although it's more expensive, and tends to come in limited sizes determined by the manufacturer. You can make these any size! You can also use any cheaper single-braid line for more mildly-loaded applications. Just made a new video on this which uses a really long shackle! The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
"says Dyneema is really slippery and doesn't hold knots well, then ties simple knot for soft shackle knob. Knot slips." This kinda bugs me - I'd far rather have a soft shackle that breaks before the knot unties. For that, James from Sailing Zingaro demonstrates a soft shackle that still uses a simple overhand knot, but the free ends have simple spliced loops spliced in that the rest of the soft shackle runs thru. This stops the ends from pulling through and the soft shackle can not come untied. Pretty slick - ua-cam.com/video/o4J4hJoJFHg/v-deo.html HowNot2 also has a demo on this type, and they did break tests using a strain gauge! ua-cam.com/video/jU_mmdbQeCQ/v-deo.html Peruse their videos for other useful knot and sailing info, too.
Those are great videos! It really depends on your use case as to how complex you need to go. When I said “doesn’t hold knots very well” I was referring to the misconception that knots Dyneema are useless, when in fact it takes quite a bit of force to pull them out. My simple shackle could lift a Toyota Corolla before the knot pulls out, which I think is still pretty useful for lots of applications, even though a more advanced shackle with the same line could lift more. The benefit of the Sailing Zingaro technique is that the bury doubles up the Dyneema where it normally breaks too, so it’s a very good technique, just a bit more complex.
All knots in dyneema will slip. If you chock load it, the dyneema will melt. Button knot with buried ends will not fale ever, is not hard to learn and will make you sleep at night knowing your soft shackles are as strong as they can be.
Yes knots do slip in Dyneema but you can still load them up pretty good before anything bad happens. In this video I lift the front end of my car with a tractor bucket using this soft shackle, and repeatedly shake it up and down, and it holds with this particular load: ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
I'm not a sailor, but I use the soft shackle on my camping hammock rigging. I've been using the diamond knot, I have tied it many times for myself and friends. However; seeing the strength of the figure 8, I guess I'll be using that from now on. It's quicker and simpler to tie, and hammocks have far less stress and strain compared to sailing applications.. A BIG thank you. I'm gonna subscribe just incase you come up with other handy dandy "things" I can plagiarize.
Glad you like it! You should check out this video where I use an overhand soft shackle to lift the front end of my car, so they may be strong enough for a hammock too! The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
The big advantage of the diamond knot is that the knot ends up bigger, makes it less likely to whip loose. You’re basically always going to have at least full line strength from any of these things, so unless you want to live dangerously by, say, using a 4mm soft shackle on 5mm line, the MBS is just not all that interesting.
I've always heard about soft shackles but had no idea they were so easy to make! Thanks for the video!
You’re welcome! This variety is very easy to make. There are stronger varieties but for most use cases this is sufficient!
After watching a lot of videos to make a soft shackle I discovered yours. This is the easiest way so far so thank you. I intend to make them for hammock camping.
I think they’re perfect for something like a hammock!
Glad YT suggested your channel.
Thanks - glad it’s helpful!
Another option which is simple and strong is the Ashley stopper knot. It seems well suited to dyneema. I found this on another channel called Bottom UP- Boats. I'm now subscribed to both!
That's a great suggestion - thanks so much!!! I'll try testing that out!
I too use ashley stopper knots with my soft shackle (as well as button knots, which can be annoyingly confusing).
Really clear, thanks!
you took the mystery out of how difficult is making a soft shackle, thank you very much, I subscribed.
Yes there are stronger techniques but this is definitely strong enough for many use cases!
Glad I found your video. Very useful for me. Many thanks!
Excellent - glad you found it useful!
Very informative, love the testing. Thank you for the sailing tip!
Glad it was helpful!
This is excellent stuff. I am hoping that you are just getting started with the making of these videos. Thank you so much for putting in the effort.
Thanks - it’s been fun and I’m glad people are getting something out of them! I’m putting one together about tying a soft shackle into the end of an existing line, which we’ve been using for spinnaker sheets.
It's brilliant and safe to use. I also like the way you test it. I think i have an even easier methode without going through the line. You bend the line in half and make the knot. To close the loop, you use a knot that kitesurfers use to attach their lines to the kite. I have no issues with it untill now. And as you tested your methode it also proves that my methode is not bad. It's super easy and cheap as you said it. Its also easy if you have to make a quick fix on the field. But i have to admit your methode is 100% bulletproof, mine a little bit less.
Thanks for the idea - I’ll look up the kite surfer knot and try your suggestion too!
I think you will like the simplicity of it. Its called a Larkshead knot seems.
The kite surfer knot is also called a cow hitch. It is two-half hitches with the direction of the second one reversed.
This is brilliant - thanks!! I’m new to soft shackles on our cruising trimaran and buying yacht shop shackles has been quite expensive. This will certainly help👍
Glad you like it! You can experiment with different kinds of knots in non-critical applications and see what works best for you!
@@SailingTipsCa I just made 6 of them with 6mm Marlow D12 and the double overhand knot. Used two of our winches to really tighten them and they’re now holding up our barber hauler line off the deck. Will make a bigger one tomorrow for our spin and Code 0 aft blocks as well - thanks again!👍
@@PN_48 Nice! I use them for attaching screacher and spin blocks as well!
@@SailingTipsCaAt 09:32 you mention (and picture) using a soft shackle at the mainsheet attachment for the boom… could you please elaborate? How do you stop the loop sliding on the boom / how did you fix it’s position?
@@PN_48 Good question! The soft shackle passes through both the main sheet shackle below the boom and the sail clew ring above the beam, both of which can float somewhat fore and aft, however the final position at any one point in time is controlled by the sail draft (curvature) forward of the shackle and the outhaul line connected to the sail clew aft of the shackle. In other words, it’s all about managing the position of the sail clew fore and aft with the outhaul, and up and down with mainsheet tension. Does this help?
Nice tests using what you had available. Very nicely done. Thank you for your hard work.
Thanks so much! Did you see this one where I use these soft shackles to lift my car? The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
Hey man great video! I appreciate the real tests! I saw another video of making dyneema soft shackles, the best I’ve seen, more complicated than yours but still no difficult knots. Do brummel splices in each end, bury the tails, do the little off-centre tuck thru loop as with yours, then tie the two loop ends in an overhand knot, pass the free end thru both loops to make a huge captive knot that can’t slip. I’ll get the link
ua-cam.com/video/o4J4hJoJFHg/v-deo.htmlsi=hEzFP5b3kaadz_Gc
Soft shackle at 17:30
@@grandmasterflash213 For some reason UA-cam doesn’t like links to other channels in comments - it seems to auto-delete them! I’ve seen the one you’re talking about though and it looks pretty bomb-proof!!!
Great shortcut! The double or figure 8 knot was news to me! Thanks
Thanks! The double figure of 8 is not common in sailing but mountaineers love it!!!
@@SailingTipsCa We sailors use the figure 8, but I had no idea it was a stronger knot under loads. I use it because it is easier to untie! Who knew it was stronger also!? Thanks again
@@Lordmacsmith I suspect a double overhand knot is also better than a single overhand knot as a stopper although I haven’t tested it with the press yet…
Thanks so much for this tip I am all for easy and simple Great video
Glad it was helpful!
The stopper knots I like using are the Ashley, figure eight and double figure eight, also the Stevedore.
Those are all good except I’ve never tried the Stevedore - I’ll look that up - thanks!
Really nice with simple soft shackles. Instead of optimised knot you can increase line dimension one step. A little more cost and weight.
Yes you can use this general noose technique and experiment with different types of stopper knots. Try it and let us know how it goes!
Very interesting; even from a simple person! Thank you.
Glad you liked it!
Unbelievably quick and easy , and more that strong enough for the loads on my boat. I've seen seen a method where the unfinished ends a buried into the line - it's tidy and provides more thickness in the line. I'm thinking of trying that with the double figure 8, It would be interesting to see details of how you've used the shackles. I'm thinking of using one on an asym clew with new core dependent sheets. Hoping to make as smooth a connection as possible to avoid catching on the forestay. any tips would be appreciated
Thanks! Yes burying the ends back in does make for a stronger result and tidier finish, but these are so quick and easy that you can make them in the field as an emergency jury rig. I'll also do a video on creative uses of soft shackles - good idea! And I do also have a suggestion on how to make assym sheets using a simple technique - I'll do a video on that too. For the kite attachment, basically feed the Dyneema through itself, then add a simple figure eight. Feed the figure eight through the clew ring, and into the Dyneema loop which tightens on itself. It's like an integral soft shackle in the end of the line.
I'm about to test a double fisherman knot for easy soft shackles. If you bury the tailsback into the rope it sold should increase strength a lot too (bigger bend radius of noose)
When pushed really hard soft shackles typically break adjacent to the knot where the noose attaches, so burying the ends back in creates extra thickness there and helps mitigate that problem!
Thank you sir you've made life alot easier!....ATB
Glad to hear it!
good video, informative and easy to understand, thank you
Glad you enjoyed it!
I just came off building a bunch of these. I must say that the diamond knot is really not difficult to tie at all. For a highly capable guy like yourself that can perform all these hydraulic break strength tests and sail a race boat the lanyard knot is pretty simple. Id recommend the diamond lanyard over the overhand. The button knot is a bit tougher so the diamond lanyard is a nice compromise.
I totally agree - if you can tie a Diamond knot then do it!
I first tied soft shackles with an overhand knot a couple of years ago shortly after we got our F-82R trimaran when I was experimenting with different spinnaker and screacher sheeting locations on the aft beam and wanted something where I could easily adjust the length of the shackle on the water. It truly was a jury rig and I was expecting them to blow up on the first sail, but they didn’t.
Six months later, we blew up the diamond knot soft shackle that connects the main sheet to the boom (due to chafe and not inherent strength of the shackle or knot). I didn’t have a long enough diamond knot shackle on hand to replace it but I did have a long overhand shackle on the boat, so I used it, also expecting it to blow up due to the higher loads, but again it didn’t.
For the next two years I kept using these overhand knot shackles in progressively heavier conditions with no issues whatsoever when I saw a forum post asking “Can you tie a soft shackle with something simpler than a diamond knot, like an overhand knot?” I had the answer and it was a resounding “yes”, so I decided to do a UA-cam video on it and post the video in the response. But before I posted the video I thought I had better do some empirical strength testing. So the progression was somewhat backwards to what you might expect 1) jury rig 2) field testing 3) empirical testing.
Regardless, I will agree that if you can tie a Diamond knot then stick with that!
@@SailingTipsCa yeah when i went with the diamond i was wondering if i left something on the table by not using a button...but if a get that reduced rating...of 3000lbs?....did it matter? I need maybe 200 lbs...and that buttons a pain!...so yeah i take your point as well
I’ve tied button knot soft shackles, and they’re *fine*, but I cannot get that knot into my head. The diamond knot, on the other hand, is easy to tie by heart - I even did some experimentation in how I could do it wrong and what to avoid.
Afaik the difference in the strength is pretty much entirely because with the button knot, the noose goes around four strands instead of two. Makes you wonder whether you can’t just bury a short piece of filler inside the two strands at that location and get the same benefit.
Loved the vid.
Can’t wait to start making some of my own
They’re super easy and useful - thanks for watching!!!
I have used the flat overhand knot as the button knot on multiple soft shackles on my Alberg 30 (including my jib sheet to genoa clew and mainsheet to traveler shackle) for several years. When tying the flat overhand knot (ABOK 1410) I leave a longer tail as recommended by European mountain climbers. Also, instead of a simple Brummel eye splice, might a bury splice be more secure in a flogging situation (ie jib sheets)? Excellent instructions, thank you.
Glad to hear you’ve successfully used these too! Yes a bury splice might be better in some situations but I haven’t found the simple eye splice to be problematic yet… Good tip on leaving the tails long!
Hi, brilliant video, do you have any issues with Dyneema suffering from degradation caused by UV exposure?
Thanks - glad you liked it! Dyneema seems to have excellent UV resistance and I have several pieces that have been outside for years and still work great!
Super easy.
many thanks!
Thanks - glad you liked it!
Figure 8 Stopper FTW💪
Yes that’s the easiest/strongest combo IMHO! That said I did manage to lift the front of my car with a simple overhand knot soft shackle, so still pretty strong!
The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
Very useful, thanks!
Glad you liked it!
It would be very interesting if you could try the Ashley stopper knot used in a soft shackle. People are obviously using it, with many examples of that in the comments here alone. I have done extensive searches, but can't find anyone that have done any tests at all. Nothing. It worries me a bit that it's used seemingly without anything saying it's a knot suitable for Dyneema.
Great suggestion - I've added it to the list of future potential videos!
@@SailingTipsCa You'll be the first one on the whole internet from what I can see... 🙂
@@JohanLarssonKiruna Better get on that then…after the sailing regatta this weekend of course!
It's amazing that the dyneema soft shackle works with a figure-of-eight knot. So a much more complicated diamond or other comparable knots are not necessary at all?
I know - I often don’t even bother with the double figure-of-eight and just use a double overhand knot! Maybe the fancy knots are like a secret handshake or something like that! A freshly tied double overhand or figure-of-eight knot will pull out instead of actually breaking the line, which I think the secret handshakers were afraid of, but most people don’t apply that much load. And once they are well-set with a few good load cycles they will be much less likely to pull out. I doubt the double overhand soft shackles I’ve been using for my main sheet, spinnaker, and screacher blocks would pull out now…
Uprating the size of the line used for the shackle could easily make up for the difference in strength too. I was planning to use 3mm in some places on my boat as it will handle the load, but bumping up a mm or two will make them easier to handle in addition to adding cushion to the breaking load.
Yes I find 5mm / 3/16” to be sufficient for most jobs on any boat under around 40’.
wow, stumbled upon this and I learned a lot. Thank you! Actually I use dyneema here on my farm for various things, but also normal steel shackles. They have to retire now! 🙂
Glad you liked it! Did you see this video where I lift the front end of my car with a Dyneema soft shackle? The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
@@SailingTipsCa yep, of course I watched it 🤣😉
@@FrankLassowski Cool - I love Dyneema!!!
This is great! You could also use fids!
Yes could definitely use fids!!! I improvised with a pen because most people have those lying around, although they are also becoming increasingly rare!
Try to tie the Zeppelin knot instead overhand knot.
And it's much easier to tie Cow hitch after different knot instead loop first.
Thanks - I hadn’t encountered the Zeppelin knot before! Also need to be wary of cow hitches in Dyneema in general because they tend to slip.
@SailingTipsCa Then You can use double or multi overhand knot, or 8-figure knot
If you tie an ashley's bend (abok 1452) and then capsize the tail "hole" over the head "hole", that should make a two strand diamond knot.
I guess the trick is to find the simplest two strand stopper that is very stable. I'm nervous about the figure 8 as a two strand stopper.
The climbers have had bad experiences with that as a "flat bend" where you pull the legs apart and load it at 180 degrees to get a flat side that will slide across obstructions or ridges. The standard way is with an overhand knot, known as the European Death Knot. Some people were worried about the overhand knot capsizing at a low load and tried the figure 8 instead. It capsized at a much lower load and rolled off the end of the tails, making it worse, not better.
I realize this application is not the 180 degree loading, but more of a stopper loading at zero degrees, but I would want more testing of rolling on perhaps not perfectly set figure 8 knots to see how sensitive it is. In the EDK vs Fig8 testing, quality of set was a critical factor.
I have a strong interest in making soft shackles in the field for camping. You can save a lot of weight by carrying a few feet of amsteel blue type cord instead of a bunch of aluminum carabiners that you might use in slinging bear bags, improvising suspended bedding and things like that. Suspended bedding tends to get some harsh loads from shallow suspension angles multiplying the midway load a lot.
You’re absolutely right that the key is to find a two-strand stopper that is both very stable and easy to tie. I’ll look into your Ashley bend recommendation.
You’re also absolutely right that a flat figure eight bend performs poorly where you pull the two legs apart, because it rolls over itself and comes apart. We actually did a test of this versus a double overhand knot, where we took two strands of climber’s rope, put a double figure eight in one end, double overhand knot in the other, and tried to pull them apart from the middle with a hydraulic jack. The results were exactly as you described - the overhand knot performed far better in this application.
We have it on video so I just posted it as a short (ua-cam.com/users/shortsLjR5JRGyaxI). I was reluctant to do so previously because it’s not a typical sailing knot or configuration, and I thought it might confuse people, but I have it so why not!?!?
On the other hand the figure 8 appears to perform better as a stopper knot, particularly in slippery Dyneema applications, where the legs are not pulled apart.
All of that said, I just use the double overhand knot in the soft shackles on my boat because they’re strong enough for my needs. Thanks for your comments!!!
@@SailingTipsCa Thanks for the clip. That's fun to see!
I know a few simple single strand stoppers with good performance, but most of the big, strong double strand stoppers take some work.
For more security and more work, a lanyard knot (a.k.a. bosun's whistle knot, abok 787) might be really secure. I'm comfortable with tying it because it is just a double carrick bend with the most obvious follow throughs.
There's also a fun sort of finger jig technique for tying it that usually goes along with the boatswain's whistle knot demo.
But you're right, unless you're really close to the line strength, it doesn't matter that much.
My hammock strap system is using brummel spliced eyes and a long friction tube adjuster in hollow braid amsteel blue, so it already has a pretty efficient build so I'm using minimal sized line for that . Field built is usually over-sized for simplicity.
I probably just don't like overhand knots much. I wonder how the double fisherman's bend (a.k.a. grapevine - abok 1415) in the tail performs. it's really easy to tie. That was one of the fixes to improve strength/stability on the overhand flat bend in the climber's investigation. You're never going to untie it after full loading though.
Thanks!
Just the knowledge I needed :-)
Glad it was helpful!
I make similar to these the only difference is I make an Ashley Stopper knot (it’s tricky with 2 lines but can be done) as these are larger than normal and much easier than tying a diamond.
Yes I think the Ashley stopper knot is a great alternative!!!
Would love to have you tie the double figure 8 slowly, so I can learn it
This video (by somebody else) gives you a good basic idea: ua-cam.com/video/a9CukNwBsJo/v-deo.html The only difference is that the soft shackle has two bitter ends instead of a loop but the knot technique is the same.
Very good... What about the "Ashley's stopper knot" quick easy to tie and very strong.
That’s a great suggestion!!!
Do you have any experience using this type of soft-shackle in a situation where the load frequently changes? An example would be a drogue where there is load and then no load. 🤔
@@ianshaw23 Good question! I haven’t used it on a drogue, but do use it for main, screacher, and spinnaker sheet blocks that have constant load while the sail is flying but do go slack and can get thrashed about when tacking and gybing. These kinds of variable loads actually seem to help set the knot and I’ve never had an issue with one flogging itself loose.
@@ianshaw23 Yep, I use them for camping e.g. Tarp shelters, hammocks, working around the house, lashing down equipment.
Useful info. Thank you. Subscribed
Awesome, thank you!
Very useful. Thanks
Thanks - I’ve been using these for the past couple of years now with great success!
I am no expert in knots. One thing I have seen in off roading test videos is instead of having the knot in the middle of the connection it is placed at the end. In testing they did, it is a stronger connection
Definitely lots of ways to make this stronger! But Dyneema is so strong that this technique is still more than strong enough for many applications as I show in this video: The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
Very informative
double speed without sound
LOL - no need to listen to me rambling then!!!
@@SailingTipsCa I remember concepts rather than directions.
@@shaggyrandy1264 I totally get it - I’m much more of a visual/conceptual learner too! If there’s too much text and no pictures my eyes just glaze over…
There's a UA-cam channel...'how knot 2' that has a lab set up for these kind of tests. They mostly test rock climbing gear and slack line anchors but have very accurate measurements. Perhaps you could work with them to get more precision. And you could easily try many knot configurations.
I use a larkshead knot in lieu of your awl poke through step. Much easier but I've never tested for strength.
Yes I’ve seen some of their tests on that great test rig they have - good suggestion! Not sure if you’ve seen my other crude test of this knot where I lift the front of my car? ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
Test a double overhand! Would still ve super simple and easier to remeber for us non-knott heads.
Great suggestion!!!
Thanks. Would these work for reefing a sail? Or is there a better faster singlehanded reefing method? I'm a fairly new sailor. It's for an OzGoose dingy.
You can definitely use for reefing - I explain one approach in my reefing video at ua-cam.com/video/zUJ_eQU6z5Q/v-deo.html. I use this shackle for the third reef on our F-82R trimaran, because it's very deep and I don't want to leave those really long reef lines rigged all the time. You generally need to lower the sail to get control of it, then insert the soft shackle and re-hoist. If you leave it partly raised the flogging may make it difficult to get control of the clew, although the OzGoose is a pretty small boat so you might be able to leave it partly hoisted. You could also try leaving the soft shackles inserted into the reefing cringles and secured with a small piece of whipping twine so they they don't fall out. Have you talked to other OzGoose sailors to see what they do?
@@SailingTipsCa
Thanks
Hi, I just discover that the « biggest » problem of dyneema is that it expand in cold weather. Have you experienced that? What is your take on this? Thanks for your insight
I haven’t really noticed or found it to be a problem. We use Dyneema stays for our mast and bowsprit, plus lots of other things. I know lots of other boats that use Dyneema rigging too and they haven’t said anything about temperature sensitivity either. But it’s also not that cold in the winter or hot in the summer here (West Coast BC Canada) so maybe a bigger problem in other places? Hope this helps!
Excellent
Thanks!
Nice. Thanks.
Glad you liked it!
Thanks!
Welcome!
Working 18 years as an Australian Army parachute rigger, if we did not want a not to slip we tied thumb knots in the running ends. I can’t see how that would not work for the dyneema??? Just my 2 cents worth.
You mean like this? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhand_knot#/media/File:Overhandknot.jpg I've seen people use that technique in finishing net lashings with Dyneema so why not?
The stats I've seen with the Diamond knot are higher than your quote, I think 170%-200%%, and with the button knot and leads buried in the line, 230%. Nevertheless, what you have is certainly easier to tie and very useful. Much quicker to put together in a pinch.
I didn’t actually test the Diamond knot myself but used the figures from this website: www.balancecommunity.com/blogs/slack-science/a-comparison-of-soft-shackle-methods.
Burying the tails back into the line will definitely increase the strength, also for the overhand knot.
What I did instead was start with the easiest soft shackles to tie and then test to see if they were “good enough”.
Thanks
Thanks for watching!
How would the Ashley stopper knot work?
I think it would work great! I'm planning to tie one and test it in an upcoming video.
Wonderful!
Thanks - just made a new video on them too! The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
Good info
Thanks - glad you found it helpful!
Strands are bundles. Fibres make up strands.
Yes you want to part the bundles - thanks for the clarification!
They don’t call it the bitter end for nothing.
You can greatly increase the strength of this by tying the knot on a pair of brummel splices at the ends and then looping the knot completely through the two eye splices. The bury must extend a couple of inches beyond the beginning of the knot. This requires more line, and if this breaks, it will break in the loop. See ua-cam.com/video/jU_mmdbQeCQ/v-deo.html
Yes that variant is much stronger, and beefs up the weak points adjacent to the knot as you noted! I did some fun practical testing of the “weak” variant in this video: The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
Interesting video. I can understand the idea of chasing a dream “tie a simple knot on slippery line”. What confuses me is using a knot that slips (not really a knot, a couple of bends on a line) in a critical control system on a boat ( i.e. holding your mainsheet rigging to the boom). Ok you can mitigate that by using larger diameter dyneema at higher cost, but why?
Or.. you can study the way to tie a knot that does not slip. I had the joy of meeting a master rigger Mr. Brian Toss at a boat show. He demonstrated his knot creation using dyneema to tie soft shackles. I tie soft shackles using his knot. When tested on a commercial stress machine designed to OSHA certify rigging for commercial rigging use, my SK78 Amsteel soft shackle made using 3/16 diameter line failed at 10,800 lbs of force. The break occurred in the middle of the shackle line, not the knot or the end loop. This convinced me that the knot design had zero failure. The failure point was in the way the 12plait threads constricted over the square buried ends of the knot in the line. An easy fix. I tapered the buried ends.
Using the correct tool for the job is always better than making do, for a craftsman or seaman.
It’s really useful to know how much strength you actually need for any given application so you can size everything appropriately, including lines, blocks, and knots! I think it’s completely amazing that a 3/16 soft shackle can hold up to 10,800 lbs, but for most boats under 40’ / 12m most sailing loads are less than a third of that. To put things in perspective my “weak” soft shackle is still strong enough to lift a compact car. The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html Also sailing loads tend to be more dynamic than the smooth pull of a hydraulic press and those dynamic loads tend to set knots rather than pulling them out. All the overhand bend soft shackles on my boat are rock hard and none has ever failed. Rather the only Dyneema failures I’ve ever had on my boat were due to chafe.
Good stuff, but if you're going to demonstrate rope-work you should really get yourself a set of fids.
Yes fids are certainly far better than a pen!!! I chose to use the pen because most people have those lying around…
Do the soft shackles require any yank protection ? If used to hank on a jib does the stainless wire rigging eat through naked dyneema quick time ?
I’ve used Dyneema hanks on synthetic and stainless rod forestays, but never on stainless wire. That said it would probably work too, as stainless wire is also fairly smooth when in good condition, the loads on the hanks aren’t that high (relative to other applications) and Dyneema is quite abrasion resistant. The main type of Dyneema hank I’ve used had a Dyneema loop sewn into one side of the sail, which loops around the forestay, and is captured by a Velcro closure sewn into the other side, like Velcro shoes for kids. I’ve only ever had Dyneema abrade through on sharp edges, but never on anything rounded. Do you have grommets on your sail?
This method of overhand knot soft shackle makes loops on the tails and puts them over the knot. That stops the knot from rolling undone. ua-cam.com/video/jU_mmdbQeCQ/v-deo.html Break tests at the end too!
Yes this is a great technique, a bit more complicated though and harder to execute in the field (e.g. on a pitching boat when you need one fast)!!!
But WHY not using stainless steel, or simpler cord for mildly loaded applications?
Never heard of this tinkering.
You could use stainless, although it's more expensive, and tends to come in limited sizes determined by the manufacturer. You can make these any size! You can also use any cheaper single-braid line for more mildly-loaded applications. Just made a new video on this which uses a really long shackle! The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
Slip a larkshead knot over your stopper knot and feel more secure.
No need for a eyelet.
@@hafsalinda Thanks for the suggestion!
"says Dyneema is really slippery and doesn't hold knots well, then ties simple knot for soft shackle knob. Knot slips." This kinda bugs me - I'd far rather have a soft shackle that breaks before the knot unties. For that, James from Sailing Zingaro demonstrates a soft shackle that still uses a simple overhand knot, but the free ends have simple spliced loops spliced in that the rest of the soft shackle runs thru. This stops the ends from pulling through and the soft shackle can not come untied. Pretty slick - ua-cam.com/video/o4J4hJoJFHg/v-deo.html HowNot2 also has a demo on this type, and they did break tests using a strain gauge! ua-cam.com/video/jU_mmdbQeCQ/v-deo.html Peruse their videos for other useful knot and sailing info, too.
Those are great videos! It really depends on your use case as to how complex you need to go. When I said “doesn’t hold knots very well” I was referring to the misconception that knots Dyneema are useless, when in fact it takes quite a bit of force to pull them out. My simple shackle could lift a Toyota Corolla before the knot pulls out, which I think is still pretty useful for lots of applications, even though a more advanced shackle with the same line could lift more. The benefit of the Sailing Zingaro technique is that the bury doubles up the Dyneema where it normally breaks too, so it’s a very good technique, just a bit more complex.
All knots in dyneema will slip. If you chock load it, the dyneema will melt. Button knot with buried ends will not fale ever, is not hard to learn and will make you sleep at night knowing your soft shackles are as strong as they can be.
Yes knots do slip in Dyneema but you can still load them up pretty good before anything bad happens. In this video I lift the front end of my car with a tractor bucket using this soft shackle, and repeatedly shake it up and down, and it holds with this particular load: ua-cam.com/video/9shiekaQNT0/v-deo.html
@@SailingTipsCa yeah, but a button knot is till better.
@@andraxification Totally agree!
Very useful, thanks!
Glad you found it helpful!
Excellent
Thanks!
very informative. thank you!
Glad it was helpful!