The Boiler Upgrade I've Been Waiting For: Improved and Better Than Ever.
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- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- #vaillant #sensocomfort #boiler
In this video, I revisit one of the best boilers ever made - Vaillant Eco Tec Plus, which thanks to new Senso Comfort weather compensated controls just got so much better.
The controls are in no way perfect, but they make Vaillant boilers much better than the competition. Viessmann 200 would be the only boiler that can be considered better in terms of controls and efficiency than correctly sized Vaillant Eco Tec Plus with Senso Comfort.
License ID: 7NbW12R3mk8
Jesus, apprentice went home. If I was lucky enough to have you as a mentor I'd be soaking up every moment of your amazing knowledge. Knowledge is money in this buisness! Your knowledge is mind blowing!
Hands down one of the most knowledgeable and sincere channels
We need more minds like you sir
It really is. I want this guy! You know, nothing sexual.
Totally agree.
Oh FFS, turn it up.....his fucking Head is big enough as it is!!!
@@TheDickPuller haha - I can always count on Fiber Washer - AKA dick puller
@@imnothere220 He’s already got a Husband luv!!....Fu.king Fu.ge Packers, they’re everywhere!!
Plain speaking, common sense. Like it!
nice music gives this geeky video a nice mood!
Hope you are well Aleksei!
Hi love your channel and you’re doing great work what is your favourite boiler that you would choose for yourself many thanks
Vaillant Eco Tec Plus or Viessmann 200 or Intergas HRE - depending on what I was trying to achieve
@@UrbanPlumbers thanks a combi at the moment I have a Wooster greenstar 30 si but now 13 years old so it’s getting old ?
I'm sure there's 6 pipes connected to that boiler. 😊
Could be 7 ?
Would you consider a job in North london N13?
Too far for me. Google ‘heat geek map’
You’ve hit the nail on the head with the education comments. Gas training with no HVAC experience, equals poor trades persons. Gas training should be an additional training module to a comprehensive apprenticeship………
Hi urban plumber great videos how do I get you to come out and sort my heating .think your a genius. Have low profile ufh down stairs radiators upstairs viessmann 100 combi wether comp don't think it has ever run right gas bills have never been low.
Your copper work is piece of art, great to see you teaching “apprentices” your pride in quality work.
Nver thought I’d find myself geeking out on a central heating channel though !😅
It is an interesting video but it is missing the big picture. A HEAT pump installation cost more than £6000 so it will take the owner more than 12 years to get cost neutral with a saving of £500 per year. I hope those heat pumps last much longer than this as otherwise this is no saving at old
The Offspring ! Awesome. Great video again. I was always a Vaillant guy, but the controls killed it for me in the end. Plus the constant diverter valve leaks. Thanks again for the great content.
I could agree with anymore all gas engineers, should be plumbers/heating engineers as well, since they are all connected. KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK AND YOUR SHARED KNOWLEDGE 👍
Hi - I have a Vaillant ecotec plus 637/megaflow with UFH (2 zones) and CH circuits currently controlled by a wired 3 channel Horsmann with 3 wireless Honeywell stats.
You've persuaded me to go for the sensoCOMFORT despite your misgivings on the trnaslated English menus (!) but are there any things I should look out for when installing/setting it up in my system?
I'll need the main unit (with outdoor sensor included), the internet/app module but will i need stats for the 2 zones of UFH or can they be modulated by the outside sensor/delta t calculations made by the system?
Before I get the sensorCOMFORT unit I've moved the target flow temp to 55 degrees. The UFH manifold mixer has been set to 55 too. Is there anything I can do to eek out efficiency of the boiler in the meantime please? I'm assuming I can't reduce the target flow to below 55 as it has to be 5 degrees above where the HW temp (50 min for safety?) Eg would you see how the system works with UFH below the current 55 degrees or risk taking the target flow temp to 50?
I'd appreciate any reply and thanks for helping educate the ignorant (me) on heating!
I much prefer fitting the sensoComfort compared to say the VR350F but as you stated it's trying to get hold of the damn things. Either way there are some settings/words used on Vaillant controls that require me to double check the manual every time even after fitting them for years. I never understand what's wrong with regular plain English instead of made up terms.
My question is does it save on gas usage when compared to other boilers available. Have a 12 year old Worcester 32cdi which is A rated so if I switch to this boiler will my gas bill be lower for the same amount of heat, hot water. Would be great if there was a comparison of a before and after system install with same radiators that showed switching to a new boiler like this dropped monthly gas bills by 10%.
With correct sizing and controls and correct low temp system this system will save way more than 10% compared to WB cdi on on/off controls
Been watching a lot of your videos and I have learned a lot. I appreciate all your time and effort!
I’ve already implemented improvements such as insulation pipes around my boiler and tweaking settings now that my house is better insulated then it was previously (trippel glazing, insulated walls and roof).
I never considered running a combi and heat pump along side each other. It would be great to learn more about this. I look forward to the follow up videos. Thanks
It’s coming soon, if not on this job then in my own place - just to see how it performs
Brilliant.
Is called Hybrid System
@John Chapman that would be my assumption, two systems seems overkill and expensive but interested to see how it could work, the benefits and most certainly the cost savings if any.
I fit Vaillant and every weather compensator that they have produced and I agree that they are not user or installer friendly. I have VR68 solar control module and I can't even see cylinder temp from home screen, my vrc700 is a brick of a box on the wall with tiny display. My rotary scroll know glitches and consider changing to sensocomfort but it still not great. I like interface of evohome, full colour large touch screen and very user and installer friendly.
I've recently had a 720F fitted and although what it can do is great, I agree that a lot of the settings are poorly named and even more poorly described on the device and in the manual. Vaillant tech support have been great at explaining some of it so I can get a more efficient setup but it shouldn't need a long phone call with them to discover the function of settings that should be clearly documented
Energy prices won’t be capped forever, they go up every year. What the focus should be on is fitting boilers with proper opentherm and/or weather comp. setup as standard. The market is still being dominated by standard mains switching because most gas engineers are installers (boiler bashers) no disrespect but that is how the market is poised at present. If each installation was correctly sized/analysed/surveyed and a good quality boiler from Intergas, Atag, Valiant, Worcester Bosch, Viesmann even Baxi, Biasi or iDeal the carbon footprint of boilers would be greatly reduced. The customer would make savings on their current gas bill and the mad confusing rush to heat pumps could be better planned and priced for the budgets of all. Anyway great video as always.
Great video Szymon, love your explaining style. Thanks for sharing.
I had an oil “engineer” ring me about the auto filling loop the other day saying but I’m an “oil engineer” I don’t do plumbing.
Make me laugh all these “engineers” not knowing how to plumb.
I see u “powerflashing” the cv system…i never see them doing that in Holland or Belgium…what does it do exactly?
5.5kw heat loss? 30 KWH COMBI FOR YOU!
Slightly confused by the issues with hot water priority. My (2 year old) Vaillant system boiler has the hot water function set to on (ie, not following program timer) so that it activates whenever the temperature in the cylinder drops below a threshold (in my case around 50degC with an anti-legionella cycle every Monday). The main flow temp influence is the outdoor temp sensor and then on/off is triggered by a Honeywell Evohome relay box. After some initial tweaks (getting heat curve and offset right) the system performs brilliantly. Our monthly gas payment (Sept22) is only slightly higher that it was 20 years ago when the system used standard radiator thermostats and a 1979 Vaillant boiler. Windows and insulation are as they were 20 years ago - upgrade to triple glazing, wall insulation and new roof planned next year.
the legionnaires thing is vastly over egged.
I live in Tenerife and there are cold water tanks on roofs all over the island, houses shut up for months on end while the owners is back in their home country and no one cares. not saying it's impossible but the regs reflect a theoretical possibility more than an actual real risk
once a month if you're really bothered but otherwise I personally wouldn't worry. IMHO
@@richardbartlett6932 strongly disagree. It’s a potentially fatal condition and it’s no big deal to get the cylinder hot enough to kill it once a week.
Regardless, it’s not really the point of my comment. The ability to set a boiler to hot water priority seems to be a limiting factor with many boilers, including Vailant boilers. Mine seems to operate in that mode if I just set the hot water to constant.
I found your videos only recently but am enjoying the content. My property (~2,200 sq.ft; 3 storeys; insulated cavities; insulation in the floor voids; LOTS of insulation in the loft conversion; double glazed) has a Vaillant EcoTec Plus 630 which was installed in 2010, plus a 250L (I think) Megaflo in the same cupboard. Heating/water automation is via tado room stat, wireless Receiver (programmer with hot water control), an eTRV on every radiator, and detailed scheduling per room via the tado App. Set point for each room is typically no higher than 19C. Having a single flow, single return, and being a system boiler means (as I understand it) that flow temperature modulation is not available AND the flow temperature for the heating circuit cannot be lower than for the indirect hot water. The factory setting for the Megaflo thermostat is 57C and I have set the flow temperature to be the same. I have a digital thermometer (thermocouples) and am fine-tuning the flow/return from the rads to try to ensure >15C delta-T (or greater, if I can achieve it). Apart from changing the boiler, is there anything else that I can do to maximise the amount of time that the boiler is operating in condensing mode and therefore the boiler efficiency ? Thanks.
You would need to have water priority installed to separate the flow temperatures for hot water cylinder and radiators, which means if there is demand for hot water, the boiler will prioritise hot water and will blast with high flow temperatures; once finished, the boiler will resume working on low flow temperatures. This can only be done with vaillant sensocomfort stats, which are very expensive
Cheers from an HVAC guy in Cincinnati, Ohio. You're a credit to the craft.
thank you!
I never knew boilers were so exciting until last week when I had my new Viessmann combi fitted, it’s got one thermostat and an app called ViCare to control it. But now I’m reading up on Apple Home, Nest, Smart TRV’s, House Zones, etc,etc, just have no idea what I need to do to turn my system into a smart system, do all these components all talk to each other with common protocols over WIFi, like plug&play?
I installed a Viessmann 200 (4 pipe setup) after watching your video from earlier in the year. Thank you SO much - the savings have been amazing - we have reduced our bills by 25% down, usage is to 15000 kWh per annum. I find it hard to believe that a heat pump can save me an additional £500 over this. Are you sure about your £ savings claim?
At a ratio of the cap 3:1 and flow temp 35-40c the heat pump will be much cheaper to run. You will need a well insulated property to do that though and also well installed and controlled heat pump
@@UrbanPlumbers We cannot achieve such low flow temperatures in our older property :/ 45 degrees would be a best case scenario
@@kanishkasingh2658 larger radiators can do it or a bit more insulation. I have period property running at 38C with big rads.
Useful content, thanks. The music makes it difficult to fully concentrate.
I was at the Vaillant course ASHP yesterday. Gave me a good chance to find out what type of market the ASHP would be better suited. Not sure if they are right for everyone due to the cost of keep heat loss lower for the property and also cost of installation of a heat source pump but if all the boxes have been ticked I can't see why not to have a heat pump. Also Vaillant controls are absolutely amazing and so easier for all Vaillant products to communicate to each other.
I still have a Nest V1 with the same boiler, just doing the heating, is it worth replacing?
Yes
We have a Vaillant gas boiler, heating a Johson and Starley warm air system through ducts to every room in the house. (And the hot water). The boiler winds down when the thermostat temperature is reached meaning there is a noticeable drop in temperature due to no heat coming from the ducts. (Just as there is instant heat when it's turned on.)
We are replacing the gas fire in the lounge with an air to air heat pump and 1 each in the kitchen and the "office".
The electricity is stored in a 13.5kwh battery filled up overnight on Octopus Go at 7.5p per kWh and the SCOP of the pump will be 5ish. I hope to be on a V2H from my Leaf as well. Soon.
I hope you find this or interest, feel free giving a critical appraisal.
Ecotec plus 832 with vSmart
Can you explain how it would work, please? the max property demand is 5.5kW , and the lowest modulated output from the boiler is 6kW+. How exactly weather compensation will work? as the smallest heat output is greater than the biggest heat demand? will the boiler work as just dumb on/off as result? yes you can get the flow 30C, but the only way to do that is to cycle over.
I was thinking exactly the same. My daughter is being quoted for a Vaillant and it's lowest modulation is 6kw.
this model (825+) modulates to 4kW. When the outside temperature is 10C the heat loss of this house is 2.75 so the boiler fires with extra 1.25kW - this is oversized but by not that much. The boiler will eventually reach 28C (setting for 10C outside) and shut the burner down but keep the pump running - so-called cycling.
90% of boilers will cycle to a degree when the temperature outside is 10C or above. The same goes for heat pumps.
What is important is not to have something totally out of proportion - such as 40kW combi in a 4kW heat loss house. That combi may be only able to modulate to 10kW and the heat loss at 10C will be 2kW. On top of that if this boiler is on - on / off controls it will not only cycle but grossly overheat all the time and self-destruct in very short period of time. Not to mention it will cost a fortune to run.
That is why Ideal Logics for example should be avoided like a plauge - they modulate to 7kW, you cannot range rate them and you cannot set the pump speed. The same goes for Baxi boilers. Both companies are totally behind the curve when it comes to the efficiency.
Vaillant Eco Fit Pure is also as bad - a direct reply from Vaillant to compete with Ideal. Vaillant should have never done a pure boiler - utter junk.
Eco Tec Plus on the other hand is excellent.
@@UrbanPlumbers Thank you for the answer. I am reading about baxi 200 and it can also modulate down to 5.2KW (as it is 24 kW vs 19kW), OpenTherm compatible that I can use better-looking/user-friendlier/more options/no supply issues thermostats and not locked-down Vaillant eBus protocol. But does it mean any combi boiler is a bad choice for well-insulated houses. as you won't reach efficiency and longevity in heating or/and your hot water output will be limited.
Can you clarify one point? Asking for a friend ;-). If I have an oversized boiler, 26kW which can modulate down only to 7kW, I would say the house with similar losses as in the video. Is it better for me to set the flow temperature to for example 50C where it will run heating constantly until the set temperature is reached, let the house cool down, and fire again? In this mode, it cycles maybe every 60 - 120 minutes. or set the flow temperature to 34C, in this the boiler cycles every 10 minutes with way shorter fire times? in both modes, the output stays at 20%. the difference in the number of cycles.
@@UrbanPlumbers I checked the modulation range on the EcoFit Pure 415 model and the range is 4.3kW-15.kW. For an average 800 sqft home with double glazed windows, and loft insulation is around 6-7kW. Why do you say this particular range of Vaillant as being - "utter junk" ??? The Ecotec Plus are much bigger in size and do not fit inside cupboard in the kitchen utility room.
@@MP-mu1kw aluminum heat exchanger, poor modulation (eco tec plus 615 modulates to 3kW), very sluggish software, build to a price. Pure was built to compete with Ideal Logic's range of boilers, as it was eating way too much into the Vaillant market. Plus is superior to Pure in every single way.
Choosing the boiler based on the fact that it fits in a kitchen cupboard is like choosing a car that fits into a small garage when you really need a van.
Absolutely fantastic work and video, full marks, pride and profesSIONalism, all tradesmen would benefit massively from getting on board pursuing excellence which I can see you do.
People complain about rise in energy prices.. but will pay for a combi swap and a year later add a heat pump.. more money than sense if you ask me
Not really. A hybrid makes the most efficient system one can install and the cheapest to run
@@UrbanPlumbers my point being the outlay to have all of the work carried out in the 1st place. Plus having a gas boiler to back up a heat pump is again further expense. I appreciate the world needs to move forward, but a lot of it seems very illogical
@@UrbanPlumbers How so? Wouldn't you have 2x the maintenance and repairs?
@@aliasgharkhoyee9501 again, not quite. Heat pump would work at it's most efficient being undersized and boiler would only kick in 5-10% of the year. Both appliances would work at it's optimum with very little to no cycling (going on and off) - greatly extending the life span of both heat generators, and reducing the need for repairs and servicing.
On top of that both gas boiler and the heat pump would work at it's peak efficiency making an amazingly cheap set up to run. The drawback is the cost of installation of a hybrid system. Hoever if you have a gas boiler in place already, all you lose is a 5K government grant.
Because I will do all that work myself, the installation cost does not bother me. I want to test how energy efficient a hybrid can be in a real-life situation.
@@UrbanPlumbers looking forward to your vids on hybrid as we are investing in this area at home and recommendi g to our customers.
Hi, I'm thinking of getting the EcoTec 32kW boiler installed. The tech tells me he will be putting 10mm pipework to all the new radiators. Won't this be too small?
Don’t do that. It will be done for the boiler but a real trouble if someone will want to go air source in the future
I'm running my Logic S30 at 60°C this winter, let's hope we can live with the lower rad temps. Luckily I've got massive T22 rads so hoping I can keep the flow temp down. Thinking about weather comp next, seems Ideal do offer one, any advice, should I go for it with a system boiler and unvented cylinder?
just try to set it to absolute minium - 45C and only adjust up if you are cold. Mine is running at 45C at the moment. Wife hasn't noticed so must be ok for 10C outside.
Vsmart erelax or sensor comfort?
Bravo! My pet hate, software/controllers written by people who don't use them or have to install them!
Vaillant controls have always been bad at controls, I have VR68 solar module with Vr700 and aside from the 700 being a brick with tiny screen, I cannot get any information regarding my hot water cylinder, despite having a VR10 controlling it without diving into settings. No wonder they dont want to bring their opentherm module here. I mean i used to fit 20 years ago DFA1 and 2 next to boiler controls so customer can do more on demand request to maximise the solar input, how long does it take for manufacturers to catch up??? At least my Froling P4 pellet boiler at work has actual USER defined display!
What is kimbo training?
I see you got left with your favourite job and lagged those pipes 😁
Even the lagging is a work of art. All the tie wraps are in a line. This man has a great work ethic.
I have the same boiler. I am using way more gas than similar property to mine should be. I am thinking of ASHP but I will try your tactic till spring (2024 and see how this can be normalised)
Just out of curiosity why would you power flush after the boiler has been fitted ?
Surely debris and cleaner will be going through the boiler however I'm sure you'll be neutralizing after the cleaner has gone through. But why not just do it before and keep the boiler pristine?
I agree, when I served my time you done your 4 years plumbing & heating with gas added as an additional year. I don't agree with the whole 'Gas Engineer' role. As when I was an apprentice a plumber WAS a gas engineer also, it was just one of the many branches we learned. It's a shame that people now only want to get into the gas industry and only that, in my opinion if you have the plumbing & heating knowledge too you become a much more complete engineer.
I wish you were my gas boiler fitter. Got new boiler installed in summer 22. Noisy. And noise from mains water pipes every time hot water tap is turned on very loud and keep being told , normal for new condenser gas boilers. Driving me crazy.
at such low flow temperatures will the boiler be cycling a lot ..Vaillant some models are at best on 1:10 modulation ... any advice appreciated ..Thanks
Question! if i want the property or rooms to be for example 22 deg C or may be zone valve control for each room at different temperatures via a manifold, how does weather compensation improve efficiency? I love your uploads, very informative, thank you.
Ideally, smart TRVs.Weather comp. Compares outside temps. with set room temps. and adjusts flow temp. to maintain room temps. V fabric heat loss, put in basic terms.
I bought a VRC720f, VR66, VR10 to put on an old Ecotec 418 that we already had for about 10 years and converted to HW from Splan. I do not hear the boiler cycling any more, much better HW control etc and reduced bills. Should have done it sooner.
Even on an old house we can have flow temps around 52c but the heat curve is bad at 2.2 due to solid brick walls. I am sure with newer bigger rads we can get the flow temps even lower.
Sure they could do better, no need for more modules just to connect to Internet and UI is too many clicks.
So fit a heat pump but keep the gas boiler for the hot water ... because in cold weather it's easy to just burn more gas, but a heat pump simply might not find the heat needed for both the house and the water ... oh dear ...
Nice work mate, any good reference material for setting the heat curve?
Yes. Calculate your heat loss, calculate your radiator sizes and then calculate your flow temperature at outside design temperature. Then you set the heat curve to what your calcs tell you.
Love the sum41
Hi watched a few of your videos and I’m looking installing a heat pump valiant heat pump 10kw and eco plus boiler 18kw my house has a heat loss of 6kw. Big question is I have 10mm pipe through. Will it be efficient?
if your house is 6kw heat then you need a 5kW Arotherm unit not 10kW. If you keep the boiler you dont get 5K grant.
@@UrbanPlumbers thanks but in Scotland you still get a grant if you buy a hybrid solution. which is what I’m considering… it’s more about the microbore performance efficiency I was wondering about
@@Jmbo65 whatever you do, size the heat pump to the heat loss. In Scotland, boiler may be useful when the heat pump can cope in your very cold winters.
You must trie atag boilers much more efficiant than vaillant trust me belgium technician from atag
More great content. Can’t wait to get our Vaillant air source heat pump installed.
Arotherm Plus are really good heat pumps
@@UrbanPlumbers I hope so. I have heard nothing but good things about them in terms of efficiency and design etc.
The old Vaillant controls put me off them for life. It was like trying to program the guidance computer of the shuttle. In German. That said I've ust blagged a free senso to fit on my own ecotec.
They are much better now. I hated old controls!
@@UrbanPlumbers Agreed, the old controls had me fitting Honeywell controls to the older EcoTecs before giving up and going to Intergas DHWP systems. Full circle, back to Vaillant and the Senso range.
@@twistandturn02 the same journey here. I started with Vaillant 20 years ago wth 3rd party controls, then Intergas with PDHW and now back to Vaillant as new controls are decent enough and I am frankly fed up running 20 cables to Intergas to make it PDHW
@@UrbanPlumbers i was wondering why you have moved away from Intergas, i to was a Vaillant fan for 25 years, but as we mainly install combi boilers, Intergas have been our No1combi. Easy weather comp, Smart control etc..
We value your very constructive videos, keep them coming.
@@kevinschoales844 I still rate Intergas very highly, especially the exclusive. Vaillant set up is very expensive and only works with Vaillant controls. Intergas - you can do anything with it.
It is not about what is better, but more about best suited for different scenarios. These days I would install Vaillant with senso comfort, Intergas with Nest or Viessmann with Viessmann controls.
Hello,can you tell me how to wire an vailant vsmart erelax to Vaillant boiler?
Would this SensoCOMFORT Thermostat work on a vaillant eco fit pure ? ( Inside there is a BUS connection but not an EBUS ) or could you recommend a thermostat that would improve the efficiency of the boiler. ( at the moment it got a honeywell thermostat). please
Yes, it will work. Just get senso home
thankyou @UrbanPlumbers would this sense home do the boiler modulating ? ( and can my boiler do modulating ? )
yes - is it a combi or system?@@MrJons1970
thankyou@@UrbanPlumbers ive installed a sense home and a weather temp sensor
hi, what was the old boiler? looked like a viessmann 100w, I am in the market for a new boiler and was going to proceed with the viessmann 100w, but someone has suggested a vaillant ecotec plus
Viessmann 200-W is the best you can get!
czesc, jak bys potrzebowal dodatkomwj pary rak przy montarzu pompy ciepla chetnie pomoge ( w ramach nauki)
good video as all ways 👍
Thank you!
@ 6:24 I'm waiting for a VR33 module from Nl and I will try connect a Nest 3 to the boiler via open therm :D
I'd like to see you fit a heat pump to a 1900 solid wall house. Over 300 square metres
Mainly because I want to see if it can be done.
Has double glazing everywhere
There is insulation maximum 50 mm PIR in the roof.
Has a 32 kW boiler and hot water tank
82kWh house battery
Will have 20 kilowatts of solar.
3 phase power.
No problem. It’s been done already.
Help needed please! We have just had a Worcester Bosch 8000 life boiler fitted with EasyControl and on watching your videos I asked the installer about enabling Weather Compensation (I was told by them this would be terrible and that they wouldn’t set it up for us). As part of the install I have had the Bosch smart TRVs fitted to almost all the radiators. According to their brochure the ErP class of weather compensation is VI with 4% efficiency, and room control with several smart TRVs is VIII with 5% efficiency. This is different from the advice presented in your videos where weather compensation is the better method for efficient heating. Can you offer some guidance please? Which is most efficient Weather Compensation or smart TRVs - and if WC, why is this lower rated?
I wouldn’t personally use smart trvs. They may actually cost you more to run the system.
To use weather comp to its full potential you need to know your heat loss and radiators sizing to set correct temperature.
I would remove the valves or disable the ability of the valves to fire the boiler and set them to 22 to limit the temperature only.
Then I would set the curve as low as possible and go from there. If Rooms are not reaching the temp then boost slightly.
Question, what is cheaper to run:
- run boiler at 35c for heating and the room takes 3 hours to get from 18c to 22c
- run boiler at 55c for heating and the room takes 1 hours to get from 18c to 22c
Is there any formula to calculate this? Please ignore the fact of the outside temperature for now and insulation etc. ... Trying to keep it simple to understand it :) .
the simple answer is 35C is cheaper. as you already said to simplify things we have the house with 0kW energy loss, and the radiators can dissipate ∞kW in the house. In this case the amount of energy we "pump" into the house from the boiler is the same in both conditions. the only variable is the efficiency of the boiler. Our theoretical boiler in the theoretical house is running 6kW for 35C and 18kW for 55C. for the boiler to produce 18kW it will need more gas burning and higher fan speed, which means a higher volume of air/combustion through the heat exchanger. because the size of the heat exchanger stays the same, at 55C air has less time (blown past faster) to transfer energy. means your flue gas temperature is higher and your boiler less efficient at 18kW.
But this is in a theoretical house. In real life 35C might be not reachable for the boiler due to radiators being too small, or the lowest boiler modulation being too high that it has to cycle in order to keep the flow at 35C. Cycling puts pressure on components, leading to earlier degradation. in this case, if the boiler at the lowest modulation can keep flow at 55C and cycles with 35C, then 55C will be cheaper due to lower wear and tear and lower gas usage (no start cycles which I believe uses 100% power to start the combustion).
@@ksim_ thanks, very interesting info. I’m always somewhere in between 35c and 55c depending on which season. But now I’m a bit nervous to know if 35c isn’t too low. Is there some way as a novice to tell if the boiler is cycling? The unit is plugged in a smart WiFi power socket, I would assume it shows there too? I’m a IT nerd so I like efficiency and crushing numbers, but don’t know anything about boilers, although I have a very high curiosity of things I don’t know.
as already said - 35C is more efficient so will be cheaper - will take longer obviously.
@@JS-up8ff I am not a heating engineer either and asked the same ua-cam.com/video/ai9XcIWOJko/v-deo.html&lc=UgyqADA-Sin6qLNlxed4AaABAg, I have a modern condensing combi Glow Worm boiler (installed 2 years ago by previous owners, would never choose it myself), which is part of Vaillant group and uses the same shady practice to limit competition by using proprietary extensions to eBus to control boilers. if you in the same boat, you can make/or buy eBus adapter based on ESP32 or 8266 and use eBusd project to read all the details about your boiler (might need to do your own reverse engineering as Valiant is changing parameters and methods to prevent 3rd party controls work reliably). This is what I did, I can read gas consumption/state of the boiler/return and flow temps/is it doing hot water/heater/modulation, and can control flow temps and pump and boiler states. I feed all that info to my Home Assistant to control and to influx/grafana to visualize. anything below 50C forces my boiler to cycle due to radiators are not able to dissipate 6kW of heat at lower flow temperatures.
@@UrbanPlumbers Hi - how does that conclusion change if you programme the boiler to start 2 hours earlier for the 35 degree option vs the 55??
Great videos btw. Very impressive
Love your channel, great pipe work. I used to be a plumber I would only fit vaillants. A lot has changed since, new technology keeps getting better and better
I’m addicted to this Channel 😝
As a consumer Vaillant must be one of the worst companies in the world for product information. But for heating engineers I doubt they’d sell any boilers. They don’t show you how their products interface with each other, which products can interface, which products will work with their old boilers. Very poor explanations on how to use the full facilities of their boilers and to top it off the availability of their equipment is awful.
you have not seen much then. Try Viessmann if you think Vaillant is bad ;)
Great channel, verry knowledgeable and easy to follow,
I have a question new house with no gas connection, planning to put in a heat pump but just to start the winter is it ok to put in a Vaillant Eloblock 9kw on a underfloor heating system and what is the usual cost comprising to a gas boiler or heat pump I you’re experience??
I have my gas exams next mon/tue/wed for the first time but I’ve done a more in-depth course not just gas so has given me better knowledge then just gas regs
Heat pump? Absolute cobblers.
no solder joints? sod that for a laugh
My Vaillant boiler runs from an app on my phone.. I got it 9 months ago. Don't you have that system too?
Yes you can do it, just needs another box - Vaillant’s gateway
Which 3rd party controller do you suggest for my Vaillant EcoTec Plus?
None. Vaillant does not work well with 3rd party controllers
Any idea which company insulated their property for your client - it would be nice to know because my house could do with an assessment...
The owner is on here, so he may be able to answer
Once again keep up the great work you are doing over the years. Would like to get your thoughts on radiator sizing. I have a 1996 build with 10mm to the radiator valves and most of the radiators are quite small in terms of the witdh and the majority are singles most bedroom rads dont even have any fins (very cheap quality). I am sure you have also come across a fair share of these in your journey. In this situation would it be okay to upgrade the radiators with double fins and where possible get a taller rad but of the same witdh in order to acheive the low flow temps. Or it will not work unless the witdh of the rads are increased in size? Look forward to hearing from you. Take care!
You really have to calculate the heat loss or be able to answer this question
@@UrbanPlumbers I used the CE 54 Domestic Heating Sizing speadsheet and the heat loss of the property it calculated as being 6.56kW
Good work
What chemicals do you use for powerflush ?
Fx2 unless it’s an aluminium hex then x800
Magna Cleanse Vs Power Flush Machine which one is Best?
Magna Cleanse is a waste of time
Great video, as you say the SensoComfort is difficult to find. Do you know which sensor can provide weather compensation to SensoHome (which is available)?
I think it is exactly the same sensor as one sold with Senso Comfort
@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks, it is the VR20/VR21 then.
Quality all the way as usual - thank you for sharing.
Hi Szymon Can I ask you to post a link to the UA-cam channels you recommend please.
there is only 1 channel I recommend when it comes to heating - Heat Geek
Loving the content and your style. Can you do something (have you done something) on using the Nest thermostat to its optimum settings, with a stock (Worcester?) Combi? I understand it may fall short of the best that's out there, but Nest have sold millions, so it should find a big audience. Thanks.
I live in a Listed building and don't think we'll ever be allowed heatpumps or solar!
Not wishing to piggy back on this man's fantastic video but was only talking to a friend the other day about solar on listed building. I believe the rules are you have to ask, that doesn't necessarily mean you won't get permission. Failing that ground mount them away from the property if you have room, better still create an elevated timber structure to mount them on, that is what I've done, below acts as log store. The americans are big on home made air source heat collectors, have a look at videos on youtube, looks primitive but probably v cost effective for heat energy produced . Also and old listed building is not ideal at all for air source heat pump because of heat loss, think RCC, radiated, convected, (drafts) conducted heat loss on your property. Thermal wall paper is not very sexy but it does reduce conducted heat loss. May own double glazed windows were poorly installed, so I foamed them up properly and thus reduced convected heat loss on huge scale. Good luck.
had one valiant boiler combi, utter rubbish, divert valve broke every 10/12 months, had three main boards and two igniter boards in 4 years, great if you like to repairer something a couple of times a year every year, saved a lot of gas as i was broken more often than not
Maybe a Friday afternoon boiler
Or Eco Fit pure
Boilers
So your not rating Intergas anymore Simon?
Boiler keeps losing pressure when heating is on/ fine when no heating on, radiators hot at top / cold at the bottom, unable to feed any leak on the system. Boiler recently serviced _ no problems. At a loss what to do
Hire a real boiler engineer!
@@UrbanPlumbers I see Gas Safe Engineers advertised. I'll look for the real boiler engineer in their bio next time 😂
@@mattjames88 google 'heat geek map'
My heating curve with radiators is 0.6. Ytong 30cm with 10cm insulation and triple glazing. But I am opting to add Tado controller for reasons mentioned here. My original controller is VRC430 and I dont like it. Tado is much more flexible about when to turn heating on or off.
Get VRC720, much better than Tado. 0.6 is really low - is that on a heat pump?
@@UrbanPlumbers No i have Vaillant gas boiler Aurocompact with 150l hot water tank and solar panel.With oversized radiators and temp is always around 24 bcause of my wife.Yearly consuption is around 1000 m3 or less for heating hot water and cooking.Main problem is my irregular living where tado could help with geofencing.And ofc boiler cant modulate below 4kW.I plan to combine this with heatpump.
13mb min inlet pressure on and eco tec
That’s what the manual says. Vaillant has cock is very restrictive
May I ask when you said you push the apprentices towards better training, I got heat geek but what was the other you mentioned? I am considering taking the heat geek course but would like to look at the other you mentioned. How highly would you recommend the heat geek courses? Great video as always btw
The other course I mentioned is Kim's Hydronics at Northampton Heating Academy - an amazing value course at around £200 for 2 days. It is a no-brainer as you get £150 discount when you do the heat geek course.
Heat Geek is possibly the best heating and renewables course ever made.
@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks very much for replying. I love your genuine pride In the industry and, your work, it really is inspiring. 👍🏼
Hey man. I am Polish too. I love your videos. I built my system by building a heating side manifold and connecting all rads parallel. Downstairs is separate and rooms have thermostatic radiator valves connected to the "Wiser" hub. All voice controlled by Amazon Alexa makes my home zone controlled. Also everything is connected to the internet and can be controlled everywhere in the world. I would highly recommend this solution as it works just great. Wiser by Schneider or Tado are defo worth considering when installing combi boiler.Give me a shout if you want some feedback.
microzoning is usually detrimental to the system effiency and I am nt fan of it. Systems should be as open as possible, especally on heat pumps - but also on gas boilers.
Wha you are doing by microznoing is strangling the boiler and making it cycle a lot as it cannot modulate low enough to satisfy smaller demand. This shortens lifespan of your boiler. Also the area that you are heating needs to compensate for unheated areas with higher flow temperatures making the overall system less efficient.
I know it all sounds counterintuitve but smart radiator valves are the solution to a problem that never exsited.
@@UrbanPlumbers its to do with saving money and heating less water no? i havent got smart ones but need to know how to balance
@@smartgorilla heating less water does not save any money. You cannot destroy energy. Heating fewer radiators also usually does not save you mone - just makes the ones that are on run hotter (less efficient) and the boiler to cycle much more.
Do they make a system boiler with separate HW and CH electrical inputs? By that I mean having the ability to set a different temperature setpoint for CH and HW, with HWP of course.
Yes - Vaillant, Viessmann, Intergas, Atag and even Ideal can do it. (Ideal does it very poorly though)
@@UrbanPlumbers cool. Unfortunately my Bosch 30 CDI doesn't have that. Have considered modifying it myself though lol.
@@Chris-hy6jy Some CDI models can do it as well. They need an internal diverter valve to do so.
@@UrbanPlumbers ok thanks, I'll look into it 👍
ha ha vid came up 8sec ago
👍
I’ve got a question i’ve got the same boiler but i live in the netherlands. I have the open therm module already installed and looking to buy the bosch easycontrol, would you recommend this sensocomfort over the easycontrol? Thank you for the information in your videos
Senso Comfort all the way of you can get it
@@UrbanPlumbers thank you! Buying it won’t be a problem over here. Multiple webshops sell the sensocomfort!
@@cinemamaster1244 lucky you!
@@UrbanPlumbers What model of SensoComfort did you use. And can you please give us brief as to why/how it is better than the OT VR33 module?
I use the MyVailiant app on my phone, find it muc easier to control the SensoComfort with it..... agree the UI is confusing, but looks super cool still.
@@SimonHutson Correct, you need the internet gateway added to the system to be able to use the app. I have the VR921 (just checked the model)
@@SimonHutson Be warned the app is VEEERRRYY slow though, sometimes takes 45-60s to connect to the system and sometimes doesnt connect at all, and you can't control any of the Installer Level stuff. There is a new app on it's way in the next few months though which I'm told by a Vaillant tech is a lot slicker and faster.
If you have solar PV then that just helps sway the maths towards a heat pump. Not sure it’s worth paying the standing charge, the yearly servicing and miss out on the grant just to avoid a cylinder!
I have a PV system with batteries it performs excellently through the summer months and produces most of the electricity I use for water heating, lights, washing etc. for 8 months of the year, this system will payback investment in about 7-8 years, (4 years in already looks good). However It does not produce enough electricity in the cloudy cold winter months Nov thro Feb, these are the cold months when a heat pump will have to work hardest to exchange the heat required in cold temperatures for central,heating. Also gas is very good for cooking. Personally I will hold off a heat pump installation and related heating system changes until the prices come down as the payback periods are long.
@@iansmith788 Totally accurate. You will barely make 1-2 kWh a day in December/ Jan if you're lucky, which are peak heat pump usage months.
Only if you have excess energy.
You still need to run your household, if your not using PV to do it you're using the grid
Just did a quote today for a heat pump. They have 7kw of PV. Ona. Rainy day it produced 10kwh and the house used 5kWh, so even on a bad day they have 5kWh leftover for heating.
Heat loss today must be around 2-3kw at the peppery. On a heat pump they could run the heating in this case for most of the day!
@@UrbanPlumbers Why not provide an example of your calculations, the most important time for the calculation is the winter months Nov thro’ Feb, lots of cloudy dark short days and more heat loss than 2-3kW or did you leave an h of kWh. I doubt a 10kW PV system will produce more than 5kWh ion a cloudy dark December day, and if there consumption is only 10kWh I don’t suppose they are getting the full benefit from heating hot water for washing, dish washing other uses, more like 10kWh a day so no spare energy to run a heat pump. I suppose the justification for such a big investment can only be justified by optimistic economics. Heat pumps are great for new properties with high levels of insulation but not so economic for retrofit to older properties which often require many changes.
Regarding the vrc 720, the menu's are translated from the german language. That is why sometimes it does not make sense. Did you also made adjustments to the DO in the diagnostics codes or do you just leave it on auto ?
What is DO? Do you mean heating output ? If yes set to 6kW
@@UrbanPlumbers Yes that was what is meant 👍 Only 6 KW, this installation wil work very efficient with the 0.9 heat curve. Do they leave the asked temp the same for the whole day or does it drop a couple of degree's at night ?
@@peter3601 yes it drops by 3C to 18C at night.
Hi! I have a question as what you did is what i want:-).
Does this system keep running constantly on the temperature you set 30for example? How do you prevent the boiler stopping to heat?
You mentioned a heatloss of 5,5kw i guess this vaillant has a minimum outputlevel of around 7-8kw
So how do you prevent the combi switching on and off as the minimum output 8kw is more than than the house heat loss 5,5kw?
Really interested how this is done, or has the combi a lower minimum output level?
This vaillant modulated to 4kw
@@UrbanPlumbers and with this 4kw you Can make long and low runs? Even if the heatloss is 5,5 (@-10 i think?).
@@robvossen8099 5.5kW heat loss is at -1.8 - so if the temperature outside is above 4C the boiler will cycle a bit, but nothing extreme
@@UrbanPlumbers thnx man! Keep up the work on youtube, i really like it.
What prep did you do for the heat pump? I'm considering a hybrid Vaillant
I calculated heat loss and advised the client that if they insulate loft (300mm) and insulate cavity walls they will be able to keep 80% of existing radiators and run a heat pump at 40c.
They insulated the house and we decided to upgrade 3 radiators.
@@UrbanPlumbers I'm looking forward to seeing the results in the spring.
Can you use something like NEST controls for the weather compensated features and would that be better than a seno comfort control?
No that would be much worse than Senso Comfort on Vaillant as best is only an on / off stat on Vaillant
@@UrbanPlumbers can the sensor comfort be controlled by our mobile phones? Can we schedule when the heating comes on or setup geo fencing so when I am near my property, the heating comes on?
@@UrbanPlumbers My open vented vaillant is out of warranty, and I was thinking of getting a VR66 and fit a VR33 OT module and use Nest or Wiser. How would that compare with say the £700 one zone Sensocomfort pack?
@@MP-mu1kw senso comfort is a much better product than OT module with wiser or Nest.
@@UrbanPlumbers Thanks for your reply. With the lack of product availablity from Vaillant and the exorbitant prices being charged for the few sellers (ebay only), I will have to settle for the OT solution as the next best option no matter how mediorce it might be. Even if it can bring about 25% efficiency and temperature stability than it will be worth it.
I don't know anyone who has swapped from gas to heat pump who has saved money. The last year has only made it worse. A house estate with hundreds of heat pumps running would be a living hell. You gas installations are just brilliant and persuade me to stay with gas. Your boiler sizing in fascinating. Your right that brits oversize but boiler manufacturers seem to encourage it.
Every single heat pump that I installed i cheaper to run than gas, and not marginally either
@@UrbanPlumbers sounds like we have an installation problem countrywide 🤬
@@stephenrichards5386 sadly we do. The average scop countrywide is somewhere around 2.6-2.8 I think. Heat Geek will soon publish our average scops that are I belive around 4.0 - and that is average. Some are much better.
@@UrbanPlumbers is there an issue in fitting them to poorly insulated house ?
Again, too many variables here to be able to give one answer