Christian Reveals Super Villain Secret Origins! (feat Dr Bart Ehrman) (James White response)
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- Опубліковано 21 лип 2023
- Bart Ehrman responds to a conversation between Dr. James White and Pastor Jason Wallace discussing Bart Ehrman's inconsistency on the issue of divine inspiration in light of textual variation.
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Dr. James White Exposes Bart Ehrman's Biblical Fallacies
• Dr. James White Expose...
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@@anonymouswon7000 I know you believe you understand what you think you said, but I am not sure you realize that what I heard is not what you meant!
Oh so this is where the quotes I've seen from apologists saying "Bart talks to atheists and apologist scholars differently" comes from. I've been seeing people saying Bart is a liar and when i push back and ask for and source i haven't received any.
@@anonymouswon7000 Well, next time do it without the pot!!!
17:30 What names did he say there? It was hard to catch
404 Server Error for me on this link.
White: "Bart gives money to charities...there may be a reason for that."
Me: "Uh, yeah James...to HELP people. Crazy, right?"
The apologist will say that atheists are copying Christian morals by wanting to help people
Seriously lmao who cares if Bart is hedging his bets in case there's a god?
No it only counts if you do it because God said so. If you don't believe in God and just do it out of the goodness of your heart you go to hell.. Wait.... That can't be right.
Secular humanism and charity are in no way conflicting.
@nathanmiller9918 If anything, it is a more honest and giving gesture. Athiests do not do good things under the threat of eternal torture.
I have a PhD in history. Bart Ehrman is absolutely correct about the way historians work and what history is.
The question is what parts in new testament studies is actual history... 😜
I have a question - how do historians decide what is "myth" - like the bible is myth - or are just parts of it myth? What makes any writen work "myth" ? thanks! :)
@@DeconvertedManI would argue the two biggest things that allow us to separate “fact” from “fiction” in history are collaborating sources and the potential bias of the authors. If something has multiple forms of evidence such as documents, artifacts, and even natural disasters that line up with the event it is more likely to be “true”. The other aspect is the bias of the original authors. If an individual talks positively about a group they are not part of it is more likely to be “true”. Bias can cut the other way as well. If an author thinks less of a certain person or group they may purposely demonize them through record making everything they said less likely to be “true”. On a final note, the reason I used “true” and “fact” and “fiction” in quotes is because depending how far back you are looking everything is on a spectrum of accuracy. For example, there very well may have been a great warrior that was taken down as the result of an arrow hitting his Achilles’ tendon, however we have no way to verify such a fact.
Edited for grammatical corrections
@@DeconvertedManhistoricity - whether it can be placed in it’s time, whether it fits with the historical record, is it plausible - ie does it break the laws of the known universe, is it attested to in any other texts, textual critical info (has it been added at a later date, expanded upon by other authors).
Well PhD. person history is written by those in power. It has nothing to do with truth. I know this and I quit school and ran a way in the 6th grade, never went back and I am 67, and even my un-educated self knows that. All you have to do to realize that, is look at the republicunts trying to do away with the issue of slavery. In 50 years, if left up to those fools they will teach the slavery thing was made up by commies who hated 'Merica
So James decided to sit down and literally GOSSIP about Bart infront of a congregation? Church really has stooped to an all new low.
What makes it even funnier is that Paul condemns gossip in the very chapter of Romans that White refers to.
Same level they've always been.
Well, they _do_ oftentimes gossip about dead people _during their funeral_ so I'm not surprised.
It's the old preaching to the choir thing. He is uncomfortable in the rational world, so is delighted to be with others in his delusional one...
Gossip is 100% normal
No one knows what is like to be the bart man, To be the sad man, behind brown eyes.
But I won't cry for yesterday
There's an ordinary world
Somehow I have to find
And as I try to make my way
To the ordinary world
I will learn to survive
@@ddrseI'm not sure what song that is. I was referencing the song "behind blue eyes"
"And if I swallow anything evil
Put your finger down my throat
And if I shiver, please give me a blanket
Keep me warm, let me wear your coat" 😁
Bartman is the Avenger of Evil known for his catchphrase, "Don't have a cow, man."
You stole my joke :)
Haha
My first thought when he said Bart isn't a happy man was "all he EVER does is laugh. He seems like such a happy guy"
That’s how he WANTS you to see him.
To be fair, I laugh a lot. In despair. But Bart clearly loves his work. I love my work. That's the real key to happiness.
@@johntorres2565how who wants you to see who? (I’m sure there’s supposed to be a “whom” in there…but I have no idea which)
@@johntorres2565Of course....it's a conspiracy. That's not Ehrman laughing but SATAN....🙄
@@jayvansickle7607 _"I’m sure there’s supposed to be a “whom” in there"_
The second who..
Try replacing who with 'he' or 'him'. If it sounds better with 'him,' add an 'm' to who..
Or maybe something else, almost nobody knows for sure, so you probably won't get called out for slight mis-whom-isms..
Apologists almost always use ad hominems to discredit people. “You were never really a Christian” is a universal trope. They are running scared of Ehrman and other scholars who point out the myriad failings of their doctrine of inerrancy, etc.
sometimes atheists do as well - we all must use logic in our arguments :)
@@DeconvertedManWe don't all have to be disingenuous in our logic.
There is so much poisoning of the well.
@@nathanmiller9918 true. sadly...
It is a defense mechamism. Sadly christianity has too many of them within their doctrine.
It's so weird that Christians think you need a reason to give to charity.
Buy indulgences
It’s actually a major debate between the Protestants and the Catholic Church. Martin Luther believed that good works was useless for one’s salvation. Only by faith can one find salvation.
Luther found the Paulian Loophole. It’s is by faith that Paul converted and converted others. To be a Christian, you need to accept that Christ is your savior and paid for your salvation by dying on the cross. And then was resurrected in case you needed proof of his divinity.
That’s it. Have faith in the crucifixion, resurrection, and your own resulting salvation, and you’re in. You’re now a saved Christian with eternal life.
The Paulian loophole is you don’t have to read the Bible. You don’t have to follow the teachings of Jesus. You don’t have to do good works.
@@MarcosElMalo2
You don't have to cherry-pick the teachings of Jesus or do good or bad works because it is a made-up myth.
Just do what is right by most people most of the time, and if you are only obeying the rules to get a reward, it is best you remain in Christian superstition because you are a scum bag person if you can't be decent without myths.
Christianity is just a cheap transactional business deal with God.
Supposedly, God says if you believe in me and the sacrifice, my son made for you, you will be saved . But if you don’t, you will go to hell.
I say bullshit .
Love God, for the sake of loving God, and do not expect any spiritual or material reward .
So Bart is simultaneously a bad student, and he wrote a very well written scholarly paper? That about right?
The masters of compartmentalizing self-contradiction have spoken! Doublethink your way into belief.
Tbh that can be a real thing. I was a master of this in undergrad. Not, ofc, saying that it’s in any way relevant to Dr Ehrman.
James made a distinction about his scholarly work vs his theology. I clearly don't think Bart is good at theology, He mentioned Systematic theology but there are numerous times he like to isolate entire books and passages. I can go more in depth about this but it would be pretty lengthy.
James White is upset that his daughter now sees through him. I am a daughter in a similar position.
This is exactly right. HIs daughter read an Ehrman book or watched a lecture and now he thinks that he has 'stolen' her away from him. Sad, really.
Is it Summer….or another daughter? That’s the only daughter of his that I know about.
@@jamesneace5559Bart Ehrman's gonna steal yo daughter! Watch out!
@@JD-wu5pf hide your kids, hide your wife!
Sorry, what’s this about his daughter now? Has she gone on to agree with Bart Ehrman? Is this Summer? Summer still seems to be a conservative Christian based on what I see online about what she is saying. 🤷♀️
That whole bit of him going "well what did you expect God to do, just take over the scribe and make him write the line like a robot?" had me just going "YES!" at my screen. I seriously don't understand why God can apparently 'inspire' the original authors, to write his perfect, infallible word... but then doing the same to a bunch of scribes so we actually have proper copies of it is just impossible?
I seriously don't understand what is going inside the brain of a person like this...
Same here. White is soooo close to getting it, but then the point completely sails over his head.
Or at least make the copies with errors get lost or damaged before anyone could read them
Exactly. Just like with prayer, or the idea of God intervening in our world. How do theist think these things occur? Either God would have to interfere in physics, like for example creating a storm and deciding how much damage it will or won't cause. The other ways would be that God somehow controls the behavior and actions of people in such a way as to ring about his desired scenarios. For instance a political election. Either God controls how people cast their votes, or he simply supernaturally overrides the results. Which is it, theists?
Or, just maybe, god could write his own damn stuff.. js
Christians want their god to be omnipotent but he can't be TOO omnipotent because then all of a sudden they have to explain all of the discrepancies.
Dr. Ehrman is amazingly patient in the face of White's passive aggressive, thinly-veiled insults. Like an "official" explanation of Dr. Ehrman leaving Christianity, clearly implying that it's not the real reason and Ehrman knows it. And the constant attribution of motive to Dr. Ehrman's work. It's totally self-serving for White and the people who apparently like what he does.
This thing of "all non Christians are miserable" really grinds my gears. I've dealt with chronic depression most of my life and it has never been as bad as when I was a Christian. I no longer have people telling me (or am telling myself) that it's a personal or moral failing. Whether that's not having enough faith to be healed or some sort of sin causing it or being possessed.
When we're not Christian we're sick because we don't have god. When we are Christian it's not that god doesn't work - it's that we've failed somehow.
I know your pain.
I was deeply dangerously depressed when I was a believer. The longer I'm out of religion, the more mentally stable and content I become, and the less self-hatred clouds my mind.
I'm the same. I was raised Christian, and I have wanted to die since I was 11 because I wanted the paradise I had been promised. It's bizarre that I'd go to sleep every night hoping, *PRAYING*, to not wake up. After I lost my faith I've been a happier person and have never wanted to die. There was still the religious trauma and I did have mental health issues, but therapy has helped me manage my anxiety. Time has helped me recover from my religious trauma and figure out who I am as a person without any influence of a book.
Absolutely, this is the whole point of the story of Job. Job suffered continuously while continuing to believe in his god, the lesson of which is that even though there is no benefit from faith in god, he appreciates it when you keep that pointless faith.
@@tonycook7679Well, if an omnipotent God exists and rewards faith, than it isn't pointless by definition. Regardless, I feel a lot of these people seem to be ignoring that a common theme in the bible is that of the most faithful suffering the most in this world. Paul, Jesus, and Job are just a few examples.
Sometimes life just sucks, and I think a lot of these evangelicals don't want to admit that.
I guess "apostate" is what christians call their former members who have come to their senses
The _Truth has nothing to fear from investigation._
*So when all else fails, attack the person doing the investigation.*
Bart I’m sorry you are sad 😂. Thank you for bringing joy to my life. I love hearing you speak.
Bart being sad:>>==>> Giggle, giggle chuckle giggle laugh.
I will never understand the compulsion that so many people have to assert they know the "heart and mind" of others.
It's just gross.
Apparently bible college theologians can read minds and decipher emotions
Exactly. By pretending to be mind readers, they sidestep the actual argument & instead attack what they'll tell you someone else's motivation, denying another human their agency. It's part of how they cope with trying to defend their absurd religion.
It's actually a sin too.
Hearts & minds are God's business.
@@billraimond2755They're not mind readers, they're barely mind users.
Time for the Uno reverse card "I know your father used to beat you when you were a kid and now you are looking for a loving father so I definitely understand why you believe" 😂 I am cruel but holy shit this tactic triggers me.
I went to a Catholic school 65 years ago and graduated as an Atheist. I got the highest mark in Catholic Christianity and told the teacher that I wrote what he wanted to hear and read. Bart came along and confirmed it.
Indeed. I won the Theology award in my sophomore year even though I defended the movie "The Life of Brian". I guess my defense of the movie (that people misunderstood Brian just like people misunderstand Jesus; that Jesus is treated with respect in the movie; that people in that time followed false messiahs) was enough for me to win the "faith" aspect of the award. As I always behaved myself and tried to be kind to others (even though I was a bullied kid), I fulfilled the "character" part of the award. As for the "academic" part of the award, it was easy to regurgitate what we were taught. Two years later, I graduated as a non-Christian. (My Atheism came later in life.)
Bart Ehrman is a genius. He acknowledges historical Jesus but rips resurrected Jesus. Ever notice how carefully Christians choose their words when critiquing him?
Yes!!! I love Bart Ehrman. If I had the money, I'd attend all of his classes/seminars. For now, I'll have to settle with watching every UA-cam video he's on. I've even ground new atheist/skeptic channels through looking for more Bart Ehrman. *Bart Ehrman walks by* *"THE MESSIAH!!!" clip plays*😂
So Bart is convinced that the body of Christ is still here on earth.
@@WorshipperOfLifeit’s been 2000 years. the body of christ has been converted into soil or something by this time, but i guess the answer is yes.
@@WorshipperOfLifeBart Ehrman is convinced that dead people are buried and the body rots away. What’s so controversial about that? What’s outstanding is claiming a specific person was spared from this natural process by supernatural forces.
@@javieradorno2503oh now it make sense why he hasn’t returned yet!!
I get it now 🙃
Bart is an incredibly upbeat individual, practically the least sad person ever 😅. He is always laughing and enthusiastically delves into passionate tangents about topics that captivate his interest. Brilliant mind, and brilliant mindset!
Word
🤜🏼🤛🏽
Nor would it even matter. If Bart were deeply depressed, that would not affect his claims.
You gotta remember, cultists don't speak English the way real human beings do. "Bart is unhappy" is cult lingo for "He doesn't submit to God and do what I say". It's pretty similar to a child abuser calling someone else a bad parent because they _won't_ beat their kids into obedience.
Cults twist the meaning of everything. It keeps the victims unable to interact with the real world. Jehovah's witlesses harass people by bothering them at home and use the anger generated as confirmation that non-cultists are just inherently evil and hostile to the jehovahs, for example. Everything is backwards in Cult-Land. See the "angry atheist" catchphrase.
@@Nocturnalux True 👍 stupid claim in all sorts of ways.
What Dr. Ehrman says about his fears on morality without faith is such a central issue in modern Christianity, and in religion more broadly. I really feel that sense of moral superiority underlies the worst of Christian tendencies. Believing their rules should be imposed on others is one piece. But I think this tendency to view non-believers or believers in other faiths as lost, morally rudderless or even as motivated sinners leads to an attitude that crosses the border into outright dehumanization. If I can convince Christians of nothing else I hope I can show them that non-Christians can also have thoughtful, sincere moral positions and act on them.
Regarding "Dr." White's education, from Wikipedia: "White graduated with a BA from Grand Canyon University (formerly known as Grand Canyon College) and an MA from Fuller Theological Seminary. His ThM, Th.D. and D.Min. degrees from Columbia Evangelical Seminary (formerly Faraston Theological Seminary), an unaccredited online school. The legitimacy of White's academic credentials has been questioned."
In layman's terms, they don't mean shit.
I had to laugh when he got to the part about claiming that Bart ehrman isn't a happy man. As adult humans, we all struggle with finding fulfillment, joy, peace, but Bart ehrman is clearly doing about as well as can be reasonably expected. This is just the one way logic gate of Christianity manifesting itself in terms of reading emotions and mental health. In their minds, if someone ever finds joy, it is the free gift of God, but any suffering commensurate with The human experience is just a personal failing or part of the fallen nature or something.
ikr, Bart laughs constantly in his videos and interviews and shows an incredibly jovial attitude
No it's true. All us atheists are miserable. I usually cry everyday. Especially when I'm out fishing on my Kayak, or playing my guitar, or out getting Thai food. So sad, and meaningless.
I couldn't agree more! Ehrman is a "giggle box," and I love anyone who will bring any degree of humor to this far too often droll, ponderous topic. Anything that can't bear up under humor or harmless teasing, is likely to be vulnerable to questioning as well. Humor and incredulity vaccinate us from nonsensical claims.
but it's such an easy lie. You just say they're hiding the sadness, the more they seem to enjoy themselves, the more desperate they are. Maybe pause a video on an awkward moment to get a "sad" screenshot. You're golden as a professional liar.
Inside of you are two barts
I love when theologians claim that manuscripts written 30 years after Jesus died contain accurate information because they occurred so close in time. And then, they read someone's book or hear a debate or lecture with someone that happened recently and they totally misrepresent things that were said in it.
One one hand, you can remember a significant event really well, even if it was a long time ago. I can't speak to remembering stuff 30 years back, but I can remember really specific details from pretty long ago. However, it's generally random details and not the broad strokes. Think about what you learned in school, how much of that can you remember? Even if you remembered the lessons, you won't remember the teacher's every word. But people can misremember stuff all the time. 9/11 stories are a classic example. Everytime you recall some info stored in the back of your brain, you rewrite it slightly.
So dismissing the gospels right away because they were written 30 years later is pretty silly. However, to expect they're word-for-word accurate is also pretty silly. You also have to add that they very likely weren't written by eyewitnesses, and you have grounds to doubt not just the nitty-gritty but the big events.
You can of course appeal to God's hand as a way to keep the stories fresh and flawless like they were written that day, but that's pretty much unprovable.
@@ZephLodwickThis 'fact' of remembering significant events "really well" is debatable. I would suggest you investigate the 9/11 Flashbulb study to get a better idea of what I mean.
For those of us who were very religious and then became atheists, atheism, at least in my case, made me examine my core beliefs. When I did so, I realized that doing good has nothing to do with religion. It come from having a perspective that we can be good for the sake of doing good for our planet and all creatures that live on it. As I've looked at religion with open eyes, I've come to agree with the following by Steven Weinberg: “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion." When one looks at the long history of bloody religious wars, religion has been a frequent source of human misery.
Atheism made you look at whether your axiom as a christian (MY version of the Christian God exists) was actually true. Euclidian axioms do NOT hold in spherical coordinates. And when you looked at your christian axiom, you found it wasn't validly supported, so you dropped it. It is why so many don't go back to a form of theism, they find no reason to adopt the religious axiom "My God exists". Some, like Wallace, do it because they love their wife more than reality, but it is not certain if they ACTUALLY have that axiom or just realise it is an axiom, do not have it, but play along "because it makes my wife happy". And, in the case of Strobel, Wallace, etc, very VERY lucrative. Mind you, writing books and giving seminars for "atheism" is also lucrative. Making money off it doesn't MAKE someone wrong, but it can explain why someone does a thing whether or not it is known to be wrong.
Jehovahs witnesses avoided that by their politically neutral stance .
Imagine that, an apologist misquoting and outright lying about someone who they see as a threat to their indoctrination of children.
If there was a way to put the image of that meme where the guy is pointing at his head, nodding, narrow eyes & smile on his face with that "Aaah, that's smart" expression? I'd use it here.
The absolute irony is that as a calvinist James White actually believes that anything that happens was decreed by God from before the creation of the world. This would include the mistakes the scribes have made... absolutely absurd.
'God can kill whoever he chooses.' - a christian
'We get our morals from God.' - also a christian.
... Awkward!!!
It's not necessarily contradictory. If what God wants is good, then whatever God does is good. The hypocrisy isn't a bug it's a feature, because even if God were hypocritical, it would be good because he's God, and whatever God does is good.
There's no real way to disprove a view like this. You can ask this person why God should get whatever he wants, and they may give some reason like God is the mightiest or our maker or something, but all moral frameworks work like that. If your be-all-end-all is happiness, so be it. You just want to maximize happiness. If your be-all-end-all is God's will, so be it. Where divine command theorists err is when they say their view is objective and others are unobjective.
The irony of James White saying Bart is not a happy man can be cut with a knife.
Hahaha!
It's funny how walking away from the self proclaimed authority a Christian or Christianity gives itself is an attack. God does not scare the christian nearly as much as the christian's own reflection in the mirror. A critical and objective look at christianity, islam, judaism, or ancient mythologies is not an attack.
They will all swear it's persecution.
It's the usual thing: Ehrman's departure from the faith makes Christians uncomfortable, but they're incapable of addressing the arguments so they find fault with him personally. "He's an unhappy, unfulfilled man" and "he gives money to charity---I find that highly suspicious". They don't realize how transparent they are.
Bart tells the truth uses facts and research he doesn't push it on anybody you can make your own decision.
Dr Ehrman is so entertaining to listen to. I don’t always understand what he’s talking about because I lack his vast knowledge but I have learned so much listening to him.
I liked the part where he tried to paint giving to charity as a character flaw.
I've noticed that there has been a deliberate effort to encourage christians to refer to atheists as "apostates" and to cry about it not being the social norm anymore. It seems like a weird move...like, do they aim to label us apostates, and then bring back laws that punish apostates? I guess I don't understand what their goal is, but certain apologists have been pushing for it so there has to be a reason.
To be fair, it’s a cool sounding word
The word apostate carries a negative emotional undertone that the word atheist might no longer have in current North American culture. As the word atheist becomes more normalized, they may be looking for a word that will be more likely to trigger a reflexive emotional reaction from the faithful (much like the use of "infidel").
That's because 'atheist' used to be the strong word. Now that 'atheist' has been normalized, they need another strong word. Their arguments always rely on emotion to work.
Scientology uses "apostate" to describe ex-Scientology critics in their black PR all the time. I suppose it can sound ominous if you don't think too hard about the actual meaning. I find it odd as apostasy is so common in the US -- with millions of people moving between Christian denominations, other religions, and unbelief all the time -- that it's completely unremarkable.
To which, I will freely admit, I am an apostate.
Are they scared what happened to me can happen to them?
Funny how he blames his daughter's deconversion on Bart ,, when in all truth ,, He was the cause !
More like he blames his inadequacy in teaching his daughter on Bart because he could have prepared her for the real world but refused to to spare her, but in truth mostly his, feelings.
I have the utmost respect for Bart Ehrman. He makes sense, he is charming and like all humans he makes mistakes. On the other hand, Mr James White has to rely on falsehoods and questionable claims to support his unwavering position. Personally, I think that Mr White was frightened by Bart's charm and eloquence. This must have shaken White's core beliefs to the bone. "Atheists are unhappy and evil" suddenly seems less realistic.
i find him annoying, but that isn't the yardstick. thankfully religion is eating itself and will continue to do so cos they have no answers to how to deal with the fact there is no god. everything religion is doing at the moment, at least in the west, is just helping along it's demise. james white is doing a bang up job in that respect. they all are.
@@HarryNicNicholas Perfect.
As an atheist I am unhappy ( not evil though ). As a child I was bullied to a point that I am still dealing with it 50 years later, but that wasn't affected by my beliefs. As I got older, I did get a religious time ( converted to a stronger faith etc ). That religiousness lead to my deep depression stage.
The dream I had about walking with Jesus, but triped, I called out to hold up and help me was met with a calm smile and a rapid departure way from me. This showed me exactly how much help God had given me up until then and, over time, passing through the god is evil to do these things and is the opposite to deserving praise and so moved away from it.
I still get depression but now I deal with it, outside forces have failed to help me.
@@alanhilder1883 Thank you for sharing such a heartfelt and painful story. I admire you for that. This takes a lot of courage. Like you, I fought with depression. For over a decade after I lost my first wife and several close friends , I struggled with life. Christianity offered nothing but platitudes and prayers. This was not a crisis of faith, this was the moment I saw religion for what it is. I did not lose my religion, no more than I lost the tears I dried from my eyes. I wish you the very best. Life is a bumpy road, but it gets a little easier when you cast aside the shackles of an organised religion.
James would wipe the floor with you bud.
Don't we love all those mind reading Christians?
I think it's more God or some angel reading minds and then whispering the intel into James and friends' ears
@@Greyz174 on the subject of angels, why would god need staff?
It is amazing how they know an atheist's mind better than the atheist knows their own minds. Apparently, it's easy since all atheists are monolithic, unlike Christians who have HUNDREDS of different denominations just in America alone.
They've got to fill all those judgemental boxes with something
@@HarryNicNicholasGod is lazy, he delegates. Which do you want to do, play Xbox all day, or save people from dying if they didn't have intervention who are already receiving top quality medical intervention?
I know I'd go with Xbox. Let those angels do the work, let me rake in the big bucks.
Paul: thanks for making this video, great job 👍
Bart: Your life does indeed have purpose and meaning, you mean so much to many of us in this world. Thank you for all your hard work. Hang in there, thank you!
Calling James White “Dr” is an insult to anyone who went to graduate school. His ThD was from a diploma mill
@@LuthAMF Columbia Evangelical Seminary is unaccredited
James White was very passive aggressive, like an abusive spouse. Not cool, Jimmy.
What a silly criticism that a thesis from a new scholar in 1985 is outdated. Dr. Ehrman’s continued writing and researching in the 40 years since then. Is he still working from an old, outdated framework? Probably not, or Dr. White would have said that.
It's so frustrating, in any arena, to hear someone talk about someone else in clearly inaccurate ways in order to prop their position up on fictional stilts. Let me make this clear to any believers out there: I counted myself among you for most of my life, but it has specifically been tactics like this - distortions or disingenuous strawman arguments, delivered with a kind of gentle condescension - that helped me transition into well-considered non-theism more than any life event or unanswered prayer. I remember in the 80's when "Satan" was described as being too smart to show up as evil, but that he'd be so smooth that he'd just tell you what you want to hear and the next thing you know, you're following the antichrist. Funny thing is, here we are in the 21st century, dealing with a demagogue like Trump who exemplifies the diametric opposite of Jesus' teachings, and evangelicals flock to him. It's just amazing to me, truly. I sip my coffee this morning, feeling bolstered in my release of all this tortured thinking, and am left only with a deep curiosity for the world and how humans think their way through it. Such a goofy and glorious time to be alive. Cheers!
I cannot like this as many times as I want to.
But I thank you!
Yep got to agree. It deserves more likes than I can give it.
This guys whole tirade is just because his daughter has begun to think for herself. And apparently she saw some Erhman content. Now he’s blaming him for exposing her to facts. The enemy of fundamentalists.
I find it odd when these apologists go into telling people how others think.
Yet they say gossiping is wrong.
Space aliens would be a natural explanation but historians can't just appeal to them either. So when the apologist suggests a naturalist presupposition why god isn't accepted as explanation, he's wrong.
Both extraordinary claims should have evidence to back them up.
Like Bart, I found my morality feels more real and authentic. It's so much easier to live my values. There was a very real anxiety that came from living in fear of extrinsic morals.
Agreed. I think of it like the difference between a store-bought thing and a hand-made thing, too. I once bought what they were selling: here's your morals, now live like we tell you. I didn't think much about them, & violated those morals here & there, leading to conflicts & condemnation, etc.
But once I started thinking about what I truly value, and how I can uphold those values in a universe where I have no belief in a supernatural judge, jury & executioner with a set of slightly arbitrary commands. I now consider my behavior more carefully, with a system of values I've learned from my own assessment and judgement, & put more effort into acting in a consistent, moral fashion.
Some things I used to refrain from "because God" or "because Bible" I no longer worry over, because they don't violate my morals. Other things I would have excused, or even promoted, for the same reasons--"because God" or "because Bible"--I now won't do because I see them for the break from my values that they are. I know I'm the only one responsible for my behavior, and it's not a matter of what power I must answer to: I have much deeper perspective that now, one I learned by thinking through my personal morality. I must "answer to" myself and the human beings I affect, however tangentially. I've learned the value of moral behavior because I earned my morality for myself, hand made it.
Same
A classic example of somebody who thinks that they are so clever, they can only be "beaten" by a nefarious person with a sinister "plan". Projecting what he is actually doing onto the other person, when his cunning plan failed.
Bart's reaction to being called unhappy was hilarious.
😂
This was an excellent video Paul! I love your segments with scholars!
Appreciate you, brother.
"He does give money to charity, I think there's probably a reason for that"
Yeah, like "wanting to help others" or something like that. Obviously because it's not explicitly about giving glory to God, it must be actually evil or something.
And if Bart didn't give to charity, James would ding him for that too.
@@TheBeatle49 Exactly! "He was just looking for every excuse to be selfish, that's why he stopped being a generous wholesome Christian and became an evil atheist!"
The fact that Christians hate it when non-Christians give to charity says a lot about how they care more about having Christianity being perceived as the religion of charity than they do about charity itself.
@@NovaSaber Yeah, for Xians, It's mostly not about truth or honesty or finding consensus, just "winning" against all the other ppl who aren't their specific sect.
Jimmy White was right about one thing. Teenagers are OK with anything if you give them enough pizza and pot. Wait, he said pizza and pop... never mind.
Lol, I had to rewind at the same moment.
I think the first one was more true.
Piza, pot and pop...pop for dry mouth!!
If a level 7 civilization exists( where technology is inseparable from magic, or God for that matter) If the technological singularly is true, raising people from the dead, or baring that, virtual imortality, then what is a God to do? We have become as gods.
@@chriswest8389 I'm not nearly evil enough to be a god.
When people object to the Cristian fundamentalist beliefs the fundamentalist attack the person. Such an ad hominum approach.
Bart Erhman is probably the most objective historian of the new testament to have ever lived. Apologists are forced to criticize him because he's really good at what he does.
Bart is a very a productive human and seem like a great guy. Thanks Bart
"I know some people who knew Ehrman, and [completely false description]"
Exactly why we shouldn't trust the nth-hand accounts in the Gospels!
Perfect example
"He is not a happy man"
This has to be the most tone-deaf assessment ever. I don't see how you can have any interaction with Dr. Ehrman and come away with such an opinion.
Yeah, it's totally common for students not doing well at university and not particularly interested in their field of choice and related topics to end up with a Ph.D. in that very field - if their Alma Mater is a christian title mill.
HOW DARE YOU slander kent hovinds alma mater, "double-wide trailer U"?
@@pureflix8086😂😂😂😂😂
You do not require religious beliefs to be an ethical and decent person...amen
Wow, this a a great interview. It demonstrates how apologists operate against critical scholarship. I laughed when White said “let’s be honest …”.
Thank Paul! I really enjoyed this video. I left Christianity about 5-6 years ago after discovering that the NT self proclaimed apostle Paul didn't teach the teaching of Jesus and then realizing that even Jesus didn't teach the same as the God of the old testament. Over the last 10 years I've read the scriptures front to back about 12 times as I sought the truth and nothing but the truth. I've concluded that there is a Creator Almighty but not the one that man has created in the bible. Ever wonder why God only spoke 10 statements aka ten commandments? When we answer that question, suddenly things start making perfect sense. There is one clear truth in the NT and that is that the truth makes you free; however, it's only if the person is wanting and willing to accept the truth. Most people can't handle the truth. It's too simple and it frees people rather than enslaves them. The truth does feed the religious coffers or buy the new Mercedes for the pastor. LoL The truth is that our Creator Almighty needs us and we must be willing to stop listening to and giving our esteem to others and develop a one on one relationship with him. He would never ask us to blindly follow or blindly trust (faith). He wants us to use our minds and senses and simply ask the questions. If you only seek truth, it will come to you. Truth will change your world entirely. God is real. He doesn't change. He gave us freewill to choose. We have the ability to change our direction and look directly to him for instructions. If your eyes are opened by him, you'll read the Tenakh and his truth will stand out and be separate from man's lies. You'll see and understand. There is very little in those pages that are actually from God.
I thoroughly enjoyed listening to Bart... refreshing and enlightening. Thank you Bart.
As someone who's tight on funds at the moment, I'm ecstatic that Bart made this particular course free.
23:14 when I was a kid my mom told me that if the scribes made so much as one mistake they would have to Throw away the entire Book and start again from Genesis and WRITE IT AGAIN!!!
And that's why there are no errors.
That would be quite the waste of paper and ink which would be highly expensive, so in order to get that money, imagine what they had to do so that kingdoms would donate that level of money.
Who decided what was a "mistake?"
Bart has the proof that what she told you was entirely untrue. Might make you wonder what else she was wrong about.
@@nathanmiller9918 Who decided what was a mistake: The Elders of the church apparently 🤷.
@@ArthKryst Basically It's doesn't matter so long as They get it done the way god wants it done.
I'm obviously paraphrasing as those we're not her exact words. I forgot her exact words.
Bart, your scholarship is outstanding. Keep it up!
I tell you, I just love, *LOVE* (sarcasm) when theists try to tell me why I "really" deconverted or what I really beleve, how I feel, or felt. Oh boy its SO GREAT.
It's built into the religion. It's called discernment.
@@enkidufive3349 if that was real (its not) it would be testable.
THANK YOU, Dr. Ehrman, for acknowledging that Apollonia of Tyana was a miracle worker who ascended into heaven. I have the damnedest time convincing anyone of this.
Yeah they were like really common tropes that you applied to someone who was supposed to be kind of a superhuman/demigod at the time, kind of pisses off everyone I guess from mythicist to fundamentalist when you realize that the stories just aren’t that special.
Why would you try to convince someone when pointing them to the Wikipedia article is all you need to do?
There are other ways to reach Jesus, then reading the Bible. If you remember the story of the Wiseman, from the east , they simply followed a wandering star
I don’t know of any star that would lead you to any particular location here on earth . So we don’t know how they did it…. Or even if they did it
But it makes a sweet story
So fair a fancy few would believe in these years
If Bart Ehrman is not happy, I'd like to know who is.
Blessed people
“Bart is an apostate”…. Yup, many of us are too! Haha
I mean, nothing funny about it. It's a word with a meaning (one who has renounced their former beliefs) and it fits him and it fits me.
Dr. Ehrman is a treasure for those who are interested in learning history. I have benefitted a great deal because of his breadth and depth of knowledge gained from a whole professional lifetime of research and study, combined with his ability to recall details, and then present them to laymen in a clear, concise manner that makes it all understandable. I thank him for what he does. Society is better because of his work.
I didn’t know until this week about Bart donating all proceeds from his blog to charities. Even though I have no time to read his blog, I will be signing up for it this weekend just to support that work.
I would hope a dissertation from the 1980's would be outdated. If it isn't that basically means we've learned nothing since then. Only an Evangelical would expect for nothing to change in like 40 years.
Knowledge does not grow or progress in their world.
@@ianchisholm5756Well, they do think a 3-4000-year-old book is true.
This is your public testimony/baptism a digital copy for the whole world to see. 🙏🙏🙏🙏.
Funny how one author and debator can accuse another author and debator of trying to change people's beliefs in order to sell books... without realizing how easily his words can be turned around on him.
It's like one used car salesman degrading another for being dishonest and only in it to sell cars all all cost.
What a despicable hit-piece. Bart did really well to ignore the thinly-veiled insults and misrepresentations.
This sort of thing reminds me of Hitchens talking about how religion makes otherwise decent people do horrible things. I have no doubt Mr White thinks he is doing the right thing by attacking Bart like this, including the insults and completely misrepresenting him. His need to “protect the children” from hearing reasonable objections to the faith they’ve been fed on since birth is so strong that it’s fine to act this way. The end clearly justifies the means to him.
lots of scholars try to communicate their work with the general public, which necessarily involves a different style. as long as the factual claims between them are identical, i’ve no problem with there being a “popular version” of any given scholar.
That thing about God being "active in history" is just baffling to me. Like...yes... If the Christian God was real, should we not expect that he was active in the history of human events? The bible certainly portrays him as such. And if the bible is supposed to be inspired, why *_*couldn't*_* we expect that the supposedly all-knowing/powerful god that did the inspiring went through the trivially simple task of making sure the people writing/copying it didn't introduce errors?
This was a super interview. In just minutes, Bart cleared up James White’s misunderstandings of Ehrman’s approach to biblical scholarship and he did it in good humor. It’s probably true that Ehrman’s scholarship has caused several Christians to question the notion that the Bible is inerrant. James White no doubt thinks that this is a major problem, so he attacks Ehrman’s character. But as Ehrman points out, there’s no reason a Christian cannot remain a Christian knowing that the Bible contains mistakes and contradictions. Faith doesn’t mean an absolute allegiance to the inerrancy of the Bible, rather it can accommodate the notion of errancy as a normal part of human existence and still be deeply spiritual and transformative.
You said "misunderstanding" when you actually meant "hostile character assassination black propaganda". White wasn't making a lil' oopsie-daisy. It's just straight up defamation.
@@EdwardHowtoncorrect. But that's all these evilgelicals do because they can't bear having the validity of their tyrannical cults disproved.
The problem is if theism is based on the Jenga like belief in inerrancy once one bass piece goes the whole tower comes tumbling down. I know this because this is what happened to me 35 five years ago. It was all or nothing and in the end it was nothing. I am sure this what modern apologetics is about and why defenders of fundamentalist Christianity are often so unable to admit to any problems in their faith system, they know it may all come down on them if they admit to that.
I'm worried about this guy's daughter. . . Dude won't even let her have her own opinion.
It's a scary mindset that comes from the patriarchal Bible.
His daughter is in her 30s with kids of her own. She runs a podcast called Sheologians. If anything she drug dad to the Hipster church (Apologia). He seems to have gone off the cliff since. 15 years ago he would have devoted part of a Dividing Line episode taking apart 2023 James White's statement against Bart Ehrman. I guess Dr. White can hang out with cool kids now.
I'm pretty sure I just watched a deconstruction of a deconstruction of a deconstruction. These back and forth videos are like having the longest debates in history. Still entertaining and educational though! 🙂
Dr. Bart is so much fun to listen to. An absolute wealth of knowledge. Years of content to read and watch.
Dr. Ehrman is always such a gentleman… as someone who’s a bit too mouthy, I really admire how he responds to these folks. 🤣
I think White just extrapolated from his experience of debating Bart. Bart is miserable in that debate. It's just not enjoyable because White is so mean and bad faith.
It's a massive difference to when Bart debates someone like Licona.
I hate that being this early to a video, and have nothing witty to say
12:38 - And now the gloves are off, and Dr. White wants us to believe that Bart is personally unhappy and unfulfilled in his life. Because, you know, it's just so obvious to him and if Christian apologists know anything, it's that throwing a good handful of poison down the well is never a bad idea when dealing with non-believers.
Shameful, absolutely shameful.
What a clever way to approach this!! Great job.
Evangelicals always have problems when they are forced to engage with critical thinking without having some pre arranged script they can regurgitate. Fundamentalism and Evangelicals rely on pat answers that may have nothing to do with the truth, not on thinking your way critically through a problem or issue.
These guys are running scared. They can not stand even reasonable questioning of their dogma, so they make a full-on hit peices to poison their congregation's well. It's sad, really.
It's weird that some people can tell others what they think. Are they mind reader?
Ask any apologist and they’ll tell you what an atheist thinks and does. It’s almost magical.
TO me, Theology is on a par with discussions about the world of Vampires, or Super Heroes, or Hobbits... SO much complication and waffle about nothing..
Yeah, I really don't see how, with no evidence of any god existing, theology can be anything more important or serious than, like, the "theories" page on the Evangelion wiki.
@@NovaSaber It's important because the vast majority of human beings in the world believe this nonsense, and live their lives by the mythical accounts & tenets of those nonsense fictions. They affect our world, greatly, on many levels, so it matters.
If someone pretends that vampires are real and sets out to convince everyone of the superiority of the great Lord Dracul, they're largely harmless because we've all received the information that such writings were fictional, and that scientifically vampirism is not a real problem for humans. We know it's fiction. Are there credulous people in some small segment of the population that believes that vampires are real and threaten human safety? Yes. Are they a large group and capable of enacting laws about how we live our lives? No. Do they dictate social norms, proscribe cultural behaviors and attempt to criminalize people who don't believe as they do? No.
But Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists, from all the differing varieties (there are "secular" sects of Buddhism, but many forms, secular or not, involve magical thinking in their practice & doctrine), make up a massive number of the global population, and are comprised of people from every walk of life, including the political leadership of the most powerful, most economically influential, most culturally noisy, nations on Earth.
People who are meant to make policy decisions about economics and war, about the legality of various behaviors and rights, are true believers that a celestial Jewish baby who is also his own father, born from a virgin mother, died for a long weekend so he could ascend to an utopia dimension and make us live forever only if you eat his magic flesh and drink his magic blood, and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master and lord so he can remove the evil force from your spirit self that is present in all of humanity because a bad woman made from a dude's rib was told the truth by a talking reptile who may have been possessed by a malicious angel to convince her to eat special fruit from a magic tree.
Literally.
They literally believe this.
And they get to make laws about medical care and education.
That's why.
@alexmckenna1171 - Fans are talking about fan fiction. They are on the same level of people who saw Elvis after his death and people claiming to have been abducted by Aliens. Theology is explaining us Spiderman and Superman and dead preacher man.
Woo 🎉 Bart's on Team Apostate. Go team!
This is really fun, thank~you.
Excellent conversation. Love Bart Ehrman.
There have been early copies of the Koran that had differences, there were also apparent errors in the transmission of the Koran.
Bart's PHD paper is dated... but the Bible isn't....
I think this guy's brain is a bit dated.
Nice one
I love the Bart guest spots the most. I’m gonna start a drinking game where we take a shot during your video any time he does that signature giggle.
That's a dangerous drinking game! 😂 😆
Thank you both.
Excellent episode!
I really enjoy listening to these men tegether or individually. They are so thoughful and come across as very nice people. That's a nice combination!
Error-free copying would actually require less divine intervention and potential abrogation of free will than the inspiration for the original text. The argument James presents is that the original texts must have been so clearly wise as to supersede human capacity without holy guidance , but God must have been prohibited from the tiniest prompt that would have prevented the occasional, still relatively rare for the size of the text error in spelling or punctuation.
I glad you post this cause I watch this month ago and wanted to hear Bart respond