Does CS2 Sub Tick Solve The Tick Rate Debate?
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- Опубліковано 24 вер 2023
- Valve has made it so that the community can no longer run 128 tick servers during the CS2 Limited Test, which has many in the community upset. In this video I explain what Tickrate actually is, and my opinions on if Valve's Subtick system is good enough to run CS2 servers at 64 tick instead of 128 tick.
- Ігри
Greetings! Since we're talking about something technical, I know many of you watching have a better understanding of this stuff than I do. If I said anything factually incorrect, please let us know in the comments, and also let me know what you think about this topic. Regards!
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to much math and not enough meth
💸💸💸
Great video, but why is one of the computers at 1:53 an Among Us character
hope you get through the stuff
Hope you get through the stuff you are going through quickly and healthy. We all go through them sometimes!
He sounded like he's handling the stuff like a champ
Boss move@@StiekemeHenk
He's talented, handsome and good at everything. he has it covered
@@Mark-tf9mbHow should we know? It’s not really any of our business either tbh.
@@sfbrk5381 Yup. If he wants to share he can share, but we can support them either way. It's personal, after all.
From what I've seen, a lot of the issues come from the fact that firing animations are still at 64 tick, while the actual shooting calculations aren't
This actually seems like the consensus, but how accurate it is remains to be seen. Because it's based on the update-rate of 64 from server to client it might never be solved. Some people suggest that animations should be sub-tick as well, but it might cause issues like seeing people die without them actually killing them; which is also being seen in this current beta. Without Valve confirming anything, all we can do is to speculate.
To elaborate on this, I’m csgo the Hitscan (the actual bullet) and the animation are done on the same tick. In cs2, the hitscan is done when you press the fire key (subtick) but the firing animation doesn’t play till the next tick. At 64 tick this can be up to 16ms late, enough for the tracer/animation to miss, even though you have hit someone. By changing to 128 tick, this becomes 8ms. This is still enough to have an off target tracer, but it’ll be much less common.
it is still harder to bhop as well
@@Tritone_b5 What about a setting where you can decide if you want the animations to be client sided or updated by the server. People will get used to the new "feel" eventually, but some people prefer how CSGO feels when the animation and shot registration is synced under the same tick rate.
@@Jocke155 this the best idea i have heard of so far, and they could even go one step further and make the client 128 tick to improve the responsiveness of firing animations on top of that
CS:GO wouldn't be the same if it wasn't for people like The Warowl, who were there to give feedback and make tutorials in the early days, when many people already have seen CS:GO as a failed game. Glad you are still here!
CSGO is definitely not a failed game when the game have an million player playing it
i think he meant on the early days. idk tho, i only started playing 2017@@Mi_tala
@@Mi_tala fr
@@Mi_talaOh you weren’t around back in the day. Before “The Arms Deal”, every single pro said that the game was dead and would never get on its feet
@@Mi_talait's the updates that saved the game. You'll notice everytime Valve updates CS, the number pops up due to returning players.
Wishing you the best with whatever stuff you are going through Warowl
Hoping whatever you're going through is okay brotha, prayers man take good care 🙏 and thanks for your vids!
when did he talk about going through hard times ?
@@Mnka7 7:13 , "going through stuff", generally refers to some kind of stressful situation.
@@Mnka7 Just at 7:11
The game also extrapolates state in certain situations as a predictive measure due to fluctuations in the received frequency of updates. There are lots of little mitigations against both latency, packet drop and transfer rate fluctuations that are difficult to observe in normal play.
Netcode is way, way more complicated and advanced now than players understand. 128 tick was always a brute-force solution and should not be treated as a gold standard in a context when the multiplayer networking stack is completely different than before. Quake set the standard early on but it's been 25+ years; you wouldn't apply the same rules from then to the architecture and engineering of today.
Gold comment
Netcode isn't that complicated, it becomes complicated when you try to please everyone, i.e. make the game work for latency differences of 100-300 ms, back in the day when there was little to no lag compensation, 100ms+ was unplayable, for the guy with higher ping that is and that's how it should be in a competitive game.
If you have more than 100ms latency, you are obviously in the wrong region or absolute trash internet connection.
@@MaunoMato99 Would making the game unplayable at 100+ms require Valve to host more servers, particularly across Russia and South America, so that every player is at least 100ms away from a server? Does every continent have enough players to match everyone up with less than 100ms for every player?
tell me ur privileged without telling me you are@@MaunoMato99
Just waiting for Solo Queue to 15,000 am i right fellas?
lol imagine solo queue to 30k
I read the title wrong and thought the game had sub 64 tick servers now, bad to worse, glad that I'm just slightly dyslexic 👍
I'm going to come up with a better title so people don't get confused
same lol but when I clicked on the video the title changed
This is a bit of wild speculation, but maybe the reason of why some people are having trouble with subticks is not because of the server itself but rather due to a smaller margin of error in inputs.
This is something you see a lot more in fighting games. Different games work differently, but as a rule of thumb the game registers each input and then matches strings into pre-programmed moves. The closer and cleaner your inputs are, the better, but sometimes the game might ignore a wrong input or even carry over the last input of one attack into another. That sort of thing has all sorts of applications, but just like keeping a 60fps is necessary to make sure all movements are animated correctly, a varying framerate or even input lag can alter the order your movements are registered.
To explain what I mean let's imagine you're peaking middle on Dust 2 with an AK. You're coming from CT so you hold D to move out of cover, release D, press A to stop, left click to fire. That registers as:
D->A->Left Click.
Let's assume you're super fast and all of that happened in just one tick. Yes that's unlikely but consider that your mouse is moving all the time, so realistically a single tick will have several inputs to register at any given point from you.
So, if that's all the same tick, theoretically D->A->Left Click is the same as D->Left Click->A. If the game registers all of this in the same tick, it doesn't matter the order you press as long as you press it all close enough. This should mean you have bigger margin of error. Even with a 128 tick rate the theory is the same, the margin is smaller but it's still there.
But with subtick, there is something weirder.
If everything has a timestamp, even if the game is processing it all at the same time, it will calculate the exact order of events. So D->Left Click->A is no longer the same as D->A->Left Click. In other words, in CSGO the game only knows your movement in that tick was 0 and so your accuracy was 100%, but in CS2 the game knows WHEN in that tick your movement became zero. For you, that time lag was negligible, but to the game there is a clear order of actions. So if you're used to having that little bit of wiggle room, suddenly requiring precise movements down to the frame might feel laggy and unresponsive.
And keep in mind not all inputs are button presses. If your mouse moved 3 pixels in that tick you fired, in CSGO that might be a headshot, in CS2 it's a miss.
On another point, it might also increase the impact of lag. Before any lag you might had or packet loss would only affect you every tick. But now it can actually mess up the order of your inputs.
This is very speculative and even then it should be extremely minor, but I think it is a possibility.
I think you've more or less hit the nail on the head, people got used to the input delays in CSGO and now that the game is registering those inputs almost instantaneously it "feels" off. I had a similar experience when I started using an optically switched keyboard from my mechanical one, couldn't jump on to xbox on dust 2 for days consistently.
This is actually an interesting theory, and you explained it so well. Appreciate it. Honestly think this issue will probably go away once people have put enough time into the CS2. No game is perfectly made, people will eventually learn to live with it.
it's awsome you said that, as soon as I played cs2 for the first time I thought of fighting games, the way the server gets the information and how the inputs translate into animations that don't necessarily mean are exactly the same as the "attack" or "hitbox" . this game feels like a fighting game running on a rollback netcode, where the server tried to predict what's going to happen. this makes for some weird artifacts on per screens like ghost shots and wrong tracers, but it clearly works very well, we are just not used to it yet. nonetheless, I think it still needs tweeking but for a beta, this is as good as it gets.
I think you are having a intresting theory. But why didnt people perform better in 64 rather than 128 tick If they we're used to the "bigger error margin". Maybe there have been some matchmaking-heroes but a lot of people which are complaining right now we're seeking a as responsive experience as possible on 128 tick servers such as faceit provides. And a Lot of them have been happy about the cs2 faceit experience before valve just hard coded 64 tick
i can agree with the impact of lag. while the current cs2 netgraph is very unintuitive, the steam overlay stuff does allow you to check the server you are connected to, the routing, the ping to that server and packet loss as well. from my experience if one is to pay some attention to that, it does kinda proves your point. i have experienced 7% of packet loss on cs2 that results in even worst lag than that of 12% of csgo.
Thank you for including my video in yours
Feels great to be part of a WarOwl video!
Hope whatever you are going thru will be ok.. Love you and your vids ❤
Hope that whatever you are going through goes quickly and hope you get out better 🙏 good video btw :)
Well said brother, everybody goes through stuff. I wish you all the best, remember to keep your head up
Good luck to your stuff!
Nice video explaining the basics to the kids.
Been watching for a long time, I hope everything is ok! Keep up the good work.
The thing about Valve taking away the ability to run 128 tick is people need to remember this is still a beta, it helps nobody for valve to go, "hey guys we need to test this." And some players going "yeah...but we want to play something else on the test now."
This aged poorly
@@Bl1ndGuardian666anyone that says " its just the beta bro" at this point just has stockholm syndrome
@@Bl1ndGuardian666 I don't really see how? It was still a beta and valve got to test whatever they needed to test and decided it was ready because of it?
@@TheTIGSY its no longer on beta maybe 64 tick doesnt have space in cs2). cope)
Howl ong has it been sh is gonna be in beta til the end of time like aimlabs that has been in beta for like 4 years
Honestly this was a pretty decent video to explain how client/server works in these types of games, I wish I could have had it to watch years ago when studying how this works is csgo 😅
All the best to you in getting through the stuff ❤
Hey man your content just keeps getting better. Awesome!
Thanks for educating us with this video! Lots of people have no clue about this and complains just because they are mad.
I do hope Valve doesn’t end up making some sort of subscription in order to p(l)ay 128 t servers 🙏
Warowl looking stunning as always.
All the best in your going through stuff!
Love you WarOwl.
Thank you for all this incredible content. Hope I git gud enough to play with you one day.
having each tick record (I'm assuming) multiple pionts of data across the tick is great for better asccuracy and less interpolation needed, however, lower tick rates increase latency. A 1 Hz tickrate with "sub tick" would theoretically be accurate but everything on your screen would be at least 1 second in the past, Like looking into the sky and seeing ther past. This would be very bad for playability for reasons such as peeker's advantage etc, probably why we won't be able to game with people on mars, not realtime anyway.
Take your time, keep your power of morale
Yay! WarOwl made a video about this! Excited to see his insane amount of research boiled down to a language I can actually understand.
Wishing you the best luck of whatever your going through 🙏🏼
I'm not even close to a CS pro and I found the difference between 64 and 128 tickrate very noticeable. 128 felt much more precise and comfortable.
people can't actually point out the difference when put to the test of playing a bunch of matches all different tickrates.
Ropz did just by moving in a video, not even shooting. It's definitely noticeable. @@masterleon40
You can tell by movement alone that it is 64 tick@@masterleon40
In full agreement about premier being 128 tick and mm being 64. It what I think they should have done from the beginning.
Wouldnt they be running on same machine? Also it doesn't solve the issue of level playing field for people with worse PC and connection. So they would be at disadvantage in premier but could shine in normal competitive. Oh also i think cheaters are bigger issue than 64 tick.
Hope all is well with you WarOwl love the content
very nice video!
I've always wondered why they wouldn't do a compromise and go like 96 tick or something
subtick has hitreg better than 128tickrate, movement just like 128tickrate but the feeling is worse than 64tickrate
The worst part about the game is really the audio. Everything is muzzled, so bad...😢
Hope you feel better man!
Thanks for the video. I hope things pick up bro.
The main problem is that they did this tick change now. They should have done that before the public beta release.
Also, plot twist: they will show us Danger Zone on Wednesday. They announced danger zone update the same way back in the day (“What are you doing next Wednesday?”)
Providing how flop danger zone was, it's unlikely they gonna work on danger zone again. And as they promised a summer release of the game, it's more likely they are releasing the full game on Wednesday. I am pretty sure releasing the game is their top priority now not any danger zone.
@@souravdey3169 That was more like a joke, but tbh, I want something like a danger zone in CS2 so I can chill and relax between classic matchmaking. Not just another map or a gamemode like wingman, but something completely different in the same game.
So if you want something completly different that means you don't want Danger Zone, but a new and completly new game mode for CS2?@@RedAngelS60R
@@RedAngelS60R The game isn't being released Wednesday. The game is no where close to being fully released and hopefully Valve doesn't rush the game. If the game isn't polished, it shouldn't be fully released plain and simple. Sub tick does not change the tick rate problem. All they did was give us on sub tick on 64 tick base servers. Why they don't just listen to the community and give us 128 tick or at least 128 tick base servers. The ropz and Natosaphix video proved everything you need to know.
Also find it funny once everyone was saying that cs2 felt better on faceit instead of mm. They completely took 128 tick out of the game and punished competitive and community servers in the process.
Wouldn't danger zone be way better in source 2? I remember the fog around you made long range combat a joke. Hope they add it, was pretty fun.
Even though the subtick system is more accurate I still think that it's worse than 128 tick
The animations and what's actually happening ingame is so off, it fucks with my brain and I actually play a lot worse.
That's why spraying (or hitting a moving target) feels like shit.
In CSGO I could easily track some guy with the P90 running across my screen
in CS2 I can call myself lucky if I'am able to hit more than 1 bullet on the same P90 guy
I also think the tracers are just... wrong, and they throw me off. When I ignore the visuals and just focus on my muscle memory, I spray just fine. I think it's mainly a problem with the visuals.
@@TheWarOwl I would be glad to have the option to not see them in first person.. Like in csgo. And left hand model. Like it was from the beginning. But thank you for your video! Explains why everything feels so off..
Love the SC2 Terran soundtrack in the outro!
I hope you are well dude, stay healthy and good :)
The ostrich comparison had me dying of laughter lol
😂😂😂
IMO the issues that ropz has been saying on twitter about CS2, CSGO and tickrate at 64, and also during the test about how it feels - and how he can see and feel a stuttering effect on the spray - the time between each bullet in a full on spray being noticeable is something I dont believe is a bug but actually a limitation of of a tickrate at 64.
For now we only know 2 different tickrates, but I think diminishing returns happen before we reach 128 tickrate. I think 96 or a clean 100 tickrate can and possibly is as clean feeling as 128.
I can confirm this. On faceit my spray is extremely consistent, on MM I sometimes miss the broad side of a barn with sprays.
Been following you for 8 years i think. Not watching a lot of cs anymore been out of the scene, but damn you look fit ! Keep it up :)
+W hope valve see this masterpeace of art :)
Wishing you the best with whatever stuff you are going through!
Everything about the game is fantastic, BUT, the servers. My personal experience is significantly worse on CS2 MM servers than it was on CSGO 64 tick servers, not even gonna compare to FaceIT or ESEA servers. At least GOs servers were constant and consistently meh. There's no consistency with CS2 servers in my anecdotal experience. Jumping and movement is wonky, half the time it feels like 128 tick the other half feels like 64 tick. Nade throwing is weird, the new jump throwing isn't it, half the time my nades cancel at the top of the jump and don't throw. Peekers advantage is CS2 is insane. Half the time I die or get shot before I see the person. Collisions with players makes me wanna gouge out my eyes, idk if that is a server issue or an issue with the physics engine though. I hardly ever find myself in a mood to play CS2 over CSGO at this point.
Yes, finally someone said it: the game is amazing but the servers suck. The subtick netcode is actually such an upgrade it's sad seeing it get talked down this much. It's just the servers that suck. I think the subtick system is ment to make MM viable at 64 ticks. And honestly, it kinda does that. But csgo was kinda working fine on 128, and subtick 64 isn't up to par.
But give cs2 128 faceit servers and no one will complain again.
I don't agree with the subtick thing over 128 tick. We shouldn't have to settle with "good enough". Valve is trying to make the number 1 choice for tactical, competitive shooters, and good enough doesn't cut it. They make something like 30+ million a month off case opening alone, they have plenty of money. I'll happily be proven wrong, but this is gonna be another marketing thorn in CS2s side. Riot and Valorant can market true competitive 128 tick servers while we can't.@@MrFlejon
Thank you for explaining all this, its pretty hard in words to describe to someone how tickrate and how even online fps actually works.
One of the things I noticed playing faceit for a while was that someone on a non stable connection would effectively start teleporting around, which can be used to abuse entries into sites, this is not something I notice on 64tick servers.
The hit reg is however a lot more accurate on 128tick.
Great video, very well explained for both technical and non-technical people.
Background music for the first few minutes is The remastered Cave Story main menu theme for anyone wondering
Wow. As a game dev, this was incredibly well said for someone who probably has never actually worked on something like this. I'm sure I could pick some things out if I went through with a fine tooth comb but honestly no major flaws stick out, except some simplifications that I think are probably necessary for people to understand.
Completely agree. WarOwl does have a Computer Science background (he was a programmer before doing the UA-cam thing full time), so I'm guessing even if he hasn't ever personally programmed any of this stuff, he probably has a much better shot of fully understanding the stuff he's read about it. And as a result, we get some of the most accurate, easily digestible, and succinct synopsis I think is possible for an 8 minute video on a channel targeting gamers.
@@Taistelupelto420nah pretty sure he was in the marines
@@reNINTENDO ahh, good call! Yea, that likely would line him up with a basic understanding of client/server networking, as well as understanding server side authority, and probably some other basic principles like that. So even if he hasn't done game dev he'd understand the concepts; I could totally see that!
CS2 is exciting with every update for sure🎉🎉
but i still worry for my potato pc😭😭
Hey Warowl, was wondering if you'd do refreshes for tutorials on basics like grenades, weapons and what their use cases are, maps, and really basic fundamentals like moving, shooting, armor, and kits. CS2 is hopefully a time for a lot of new people to hop in, so effective tutorials(that the game still doesn't have, training day does not count), would be super helpful right now!
Hyped for the coming Wed and a new WarOwl video :)
My personal concern with the sub-tick system is more about the packet sizes. They are sending the server a bigger amount of data, which takes more time to be received and processed. Of course we are talking about sub-milliseconds here, but it delays the data sent out to all the other clients compared to CS:GO.
My conclusion is that the server will be more fair, knowing the exact timestamps of the actions, but everyone is receiving the data slower compared to CS:GO.
I don't know the exact amounts, but it's there for sure
couple points to consider:
1) its not every action that will have a timestamp, but just some where timing is important, such as shooting
2) one float or double isnt going to change much, an increase of 8/16 bytes is nothing for current day internet connection
3) the server most likely wont send the timestamp data back to other clients as there doesnt seem to be a need to do that. doesnt matter if your enemy shot 1ms after the last tick or 15ms, when you recieve the next packet you'll still see/hear the shot immediately
@@lesarXD I know and I agree.
It shouldn't mean too much. It's not even that much if they use protobuf or something similar.
The server will not send back any timestamps, that's for sure. It is the trusted party and only the outcome of the actions is what matter.
The communication from the server to the client shouldn't be changed at all compared to CS:GO. But before other clients get the update the server needs to get your actions received. So it still adds some overhead.
With a decent connection and low ping this shouldn't be noticeable, especially compared to a state where the infrastructure was 10 years ago.
Although, increasing the data size by just only a byte is always a concern with these type of applications. When you consider bad connections in rural areas, relatively high ping and the fact that it happens 64 times a second, it all adds up. (with 128 tick it might even be worse in those cases)
You just cannot beat high ping with any software magic. Let's put everyone directly on the backbone!
@@bpetrovicz So in the end, your argument is...?
High ping cannot be solved, yes, but that's stating the obvious, and whatever tick system is it's going to be the same anyway. You think the packet size is going to be a concern, but doubling the tick to 128 is literally also doubling amount of data needs to be send, right? Or do you think that the old 64tick csgo system would be better?
@@Summer-xu8qu
My argument is, that it won't make any meaningful difference in what you see on your end. You are still receiving the same data on your end at the same rate. Won't give you any advantage. At the same time they applied some overhead on the packets.
Is it better? I doubt, but time will tell.
I’ve been having that problem where I feel like I die behind a wall after peeking someone I don’t even see the enemy sometimes it feels clunky and choppy.
He literally explained to you why this happens, are you that dumb?
I imagine the minor bumps I've been experiencing are just high server load, which is amazing because it has been very menial, and only the odd lag spike here or there, like about once or twice a match that's meaningfully noticed. So with adjusting to the new and improved tick architecture it's been a genuinely overall positive change. Also not used to team colors blending player models into the smokes, it's a nice touch but the head peaks are kinda nuts. In that it feels more sandboxy like valorant in a small way, which is good because it's all stuff I know would have been welcome back when I started playing at the tail end of operation breakout. Really cool to see, although midrange weapons certainly need a bit of work or a new toy, but maybe that's just my playstyle.
lmao the way you pronounced nato's name gave me a good chuckle
128 + subtick would be great, but what matters here is that you get through the stuff that you are going through! Wishing you luck/strength/motivation (whatever it is more appropriate)
It’s not just about money for 128 tick, it’s about Time+Money. Valve should start 128 server project now and maybe a year later we will have it. 128 sub tick will be far superior and accurate to the “You get what you see” advert.
What stopped them from doin it BEFORE cs2 release
I will return to playing cs when they put 128 tick servers on xD
Thankssss for this vid! and best wishes and hugs from Argentina! XD
Good vid, you explained technical stuff like a chad, and as far as I know, correctly
Thanks for educating the community again Warowl! There's one thing you didn't address yet though:
Tying animation to ticks messes up your spray. They need to push that out to the next frame otherwise your spray is out of sync with the animation. And with a varying offset.
WarOwl speaking about nerd stuff to compensate for all the "This is too complicated so i won't get into it" i've heard is all i needed today
Excellent video great explanation with comedy elements, 10/10 ^^
We would love to see an updated matchmaking academy series 😍
I would really like 128 on premier and 64 on everything else. It would give players an incentive to keep playing on premier and allow for cheaper servers for just casual playing. But would smokes and line ups be the same on both in the new cs2 engine.
I don't think it's really an issue, we've had smokes that work only on 64 or only on 128tick before, it's not a big deal, it's just inconvenient.
But wouldn't it be better that valve found a solution for it. If they are offering 2 different server types within their game creating a competitive game mode with different smokes then the ones you practice on practice maps and casual would be a weird move
Or maybe just 128 tick everywhere? They already make bank off skins. They could easily afford the servers. Now they're gonna destroy the pro scene
@@theodorebagwell420 128 tick wont change anything.
Honestly what I have told myself, and in my opinion what has given me peace of mind is to not blame my misses on neither my settings or the servers. I have not looked into any settings and I'm just simply playing.
However, I swear they have to fix how some of these mfs are running 1 tapping me man
Can't wait to see you Wednesday!
Hope your okay, love your videos
What do y’all think of tacos hard shell or soft shell ?
I like my tacos hard shelled
@@deadsh0t8 im more of the soft shell personne but I can see the argument !
Hard shell more often then not
How about Deconstructed Tacos in a bowl...
Take care warowl. Life sucks sometimes. I've been stuck in a really bad situation in the last two months with no signs of things getting better. But I'm still hopeful. But you'll get through yours. I just know it.
I missed your vids bud. I havnt played in years and im back at it.
I LOL’ed at the man, the ostrich and the sand analogy!
When I heard about sub tick I worried about what the results would be. Many moons ago I built a system for controlling industrial machines which worked very similarly mixing synchronous and asynchronous processing. The result was a bunch of stuff being out of sync and parts falling off conveyors. Part of the problem is what's outlined in the video but another issue is when the async message comes in, if the server doesn't catch it in the synchronous window it falls to the next window and doubles up all the yuckiness. I changed it all to synchronous and magically it all worked fine.
With your knowledge in software engineering, since the background stuff thats important (registering shots) is dealt with with subtick, could they possibly tie the animations to the client so they are less delayed and they dont have to wait for the tick to change?
Again, that comes at the compromise of your client being accurate compared to the "game state". If you had the animations tied to client and not server, then you could shoot someone between ticks, however they shot you first. In this case, you would see the gun fire on your screen, but on the next tick update, you would die and yell "MY GUN LITERALLY SHOT", lol.
It's not a bad solution but there's pros and cons to everything and there may be something better?? I'm not exactly sure.
no, because the client doesnt know, if a shot actually hit the enemy. Also the client runs on 64 tick and thats where the delay comes from. the game has to wait, until the client reaches the new tick and the animation can be played.
@@timoflo369 No.. the subtick system fixes this. Actions are not tied to the next tick because they are saved sub-tick. This however creates issues where for example, people are dying after being completely behind cover much more obvious than cs:go. There is no perfect system, they just need to work around reconciliation and interpolation to make it feel better. As it is, it feels awful, and ALOT worse since they removed 128 tick. They removed the commands saying they were "placebo" but i call bs. They were just adding extra variables to their testing making it harder to accumlate data and work with it. They just want everyone on an even playing field to be able to work and fix the game better.
@@OtoKirooReborn Yeah, I also call bs on the commands being placebo as I have a relative high ping and the game felt better when I changed the values.
@@bungbloopity this happens multiple times every match already
I'm glad you mentioned how important it is everyone is playing at the same tick rate. It can be 64 vs 128 idc, I've played both, but it's important everyone is on a level playing field.
64tick, in csgo at least, feels worse. 128 tick servers tend to feel smoother. This might also be because of bad server settings on Valve's side.
Hope you're well War Owl
Subtick is in technical terms simply switching the TickId from being an integer to being a floating point number. If you send the same "command" of a click instead of sending "4" you send a floating point tick (e.g. 3,5), that means that exactly in the middle between Tick 3 and 4 there was a click. Furthermore the Gamstate can be precise interpolated with these numbers. So you could even go lower on Tickrate to get the same results.
This is entirely false.
@@Anon.G You seem to have more expertise in that field than i do. Please enlighten me.
I guess I have a technical question as follows:
Let's say we have two inputs that occur in two different contexts (64tick and 128tick with Sub-tick readings). Let's say I fired a shot between Tick 1 & 2 at 0.5 in case of 64tick, while let's say I fired a shot at Tick 3 (Sub-tick 0.0) in case of 128tick. As u can tell, timewise I have fired the shot at exactly the same time in both cases (Tick 1 + 0.5 in 64 tick is mathematically equal to Tick 3 in 128 tick)
So, my question would be, what difference does it make for the exact same input done at the exact same time, but registered differently as Tick 1+0.5 in 64tick and Tick 3 in 128tick? How different would the end result be between all the client - server connections?
@@mihirx27 So the only difference is, that in the 64 Tick case you would have to interplate between two fully confirmed game states. That could sometimes lead to inconsistencies, because data has to be guessed. On the 128 Tick case you would have the exact data at that moment - No guessing needed. Some could say in this case "more data equals more precision". But thats often not the whole story. Because more game state sampled, more game states have to be sent over from the server to the client. If you have a bad latency connection & low bandwidth, this can cause many issues,. because either some ticks has to be skipped or the ticks has to be replayed, leading to performance issues. So if you sample your Gamestate "intelligent", you don't need such high tickrate anymore, because interpolated data is almost like real data in most cases.
On the client side however, a lower tickrate means a higher "delay" between the server state and the client state. Because the client can only update positions every (confirmed) tick, it needs to interpolate between ticks to match the frame rate of the rendering. Also unconfirmed ticks lead to "guessing" where your player will be (client side prediction) and rollback after a confirmed tick is received. So a higher tickrate can be usefull to counter that. But all in all you need to find the sweetspot. Most games nowadays are using 60 or 64 ticks. On not so fast paced games you also find 24 or 30 ticks.
Its literally Valve using hyperbolae saying ticks dont matter cause they are too cheap to give the cry babies 128 tick
Warowls argument that you can tell the difference is dogshit he literally takes 1 prop player and extrapolates that to mean the entire player base to tell@@tobihendrix1324
The worst CS ive ever played, what the hell are those delayed shots i am experiencing? This is not CS, i shot and the guy dies 2 seconds later.
Yes the current state of the game is bad, everyone is quitting maybe Valve will finally do something
Lol the bethesda part had me in actual tears ... Its so amazing. Also great video!
Just by watching how slick your frags are in this video I can tell something is up on my end cus I am not experiencing what you are. There was a real noticable kill lag time earlier on a premier game, it felt like i was on a high ping server but i had 30ping (UK based). AK kills feel impossible, the awp feels sluggish. It sucks, hope improvements are made soon.
Maybe because of beta servers are not working at full potential.
HOLY SHIT HE HAS A CLOSER. SEE YOU ALL WEDNESDAY
If the subtick length was much smaller, it could be better
Wild speculation inbound:
All of my worst experiences have been on sterling servers(according to steam overlay). On these servers I’ve noticed a substantial number of times where I die around corners I never peaked(no wall bang indicator in kill feed), and lots of shots just evaporating(even against apparently stationary opponents). Hypotheses:
There may be greater issues with packet loss server side, the server may be just ignoring inputs/packets for some reason, or the server may be sending out incorrect information to the client that is showing enemies somewhere they aren’t. That last one is really interesting: what happens when one client says they shot a player, while another client who has dropped packets says they are somewhere other than where that player shot? What happens if the whole server drops all packets temporarily, and then resumes later and must pick up all the lost data and interpolate it in series? The reason I say this is that I’ve played multiple games on sterling where everyone rubber bands at the same time, without any of us getting a spike in ping.
The ostrich analogy cracked me up
I have a good PC and internet but I still die behind walls/get ferrari peeked without time to react at least twice a game in CS2. I don't like this and I'll probably be quitting the game if they don't change it, it's just not fun for me, I like how CSGO works and I don't want it to be changed.
Me to,and now i play 5 ping,i have more bad experiencia,i play csgo today omg i kill 25,cs2 i kill 6 i have very nice pc,but cs2 the latency IS very high
1 thing you completely missed with this is community servers that need custom tickrate. Example surf servers. Surfing doesnt work at 64 tick its needs to be 96-102 tick for surfing to work. There are maybe other gamemodes which need a specific tick rate to be functional.
I love that you used cave story ost as the backsong
I hope you're doing ok WarOwl
i love missing clear headshots cuz of this shit
I have that problem on servers with 30 ping. I'will be still with my crosshair center on someone's head and the tracer shows it's going through the head but no reg. Yet I can get headshots when the bullets are a clear miss and feet away from the body. But it seems like the enemies can constantly just run 1 tap ferrari peak me with ak all day.
Sub tick and server sync in this game are trash and GO was a wayy better game than CS2 which was only made to appeal to the doppler knive owners with the new lighting .
6:16
Nah. Valve also didn't know these convars are unused in cs2.
My proof is that they themselves tweaked one of them in an update just before removing them.
Banger of a video!
you know ive been really down about csgo being removed, buy your video got me feeling optimistic thanks WarOwl
the situation with the "lag compensation fix" proves that players are very much subject to placebo. Same is probably true with subtick 64 vs 128
I'm playing on 50-60ms ping, yet every time I kill someone the kill confirmation on my end is at 110ms or worse.
This practically means all information I get from the game is delayed by more than just my own ping.
It could be the delay due to high interpolation, lower tickrate, or whatever bug it is... bottom line, it feels worse than in csgo.
I'm not the game developer so I can't know the reason, but the symptoms are clear and real.
In csgo I would get my kill confirmation around my ping + maybe 7ms from the tick rate in 128tick servers. it feels much more responsive.
you can check for yourself the amount of delay you have by one tapping someone and measure how much time have passed untill you say the bullet hit. once I realize I get information so much later than what I am used to it really demotivate me from taking this game seriously and competitively.
It is just not working as it should be and even if you don't feel it - it is still affecting you.
That ping might just be one way, meaining it would take double your ping for you to see an action you take register on the server. 50ms there, 50ms back.
@@TheTechDweller i don't think the ping on tab is one way. especially since on csgo my hit reg would take less time than twice my ping...
hope you can take care of your stuff WarOwl
I hope you are well warowl!!
I don't know whats happened in the last 10 years or so but it seems like there has become a total disconnect between game users and the technology behind what they're doing. Multiplayer fast-paced gaming is nothing short of a miracle and delays measured in sub 20 milliseconds are a miracle too.
Not to mention, no one seems to get that it's physically impossible to have perfect netcode (outside impractical techniques like dumb client or lockstep)
If the difference between 64 and 128 tick is demonstrably negligible, I am actually in favor of Valve taking a stance and forcing the 64 tick on everyone. Consistency is better than good feelings because of placebo.
but it isnt placebo...
@@Lennyneto didn't see any convincing evidence of that yet.
@@ForOne814The evidence is that my headshot percentage is 77% on faceit but 52% on mm.
@@kennnnn I don't care about anecdotal evidence.
@@ForOne814 What do you mean anecdotal its right there in my faceit stats you can read it
That 128 tick premier would be awesome idea!
As an Cloud Manager, this description made me too happy lol.