Thanks for clarifying this difference. I am also so fascinated by what Bronze age and "tribal" earlier Greece was like. Living on the Greek islandof Ikaria, I like to imagine how it was as I look up into the hills and out to the sea. I really feel like modern greeks and the people in general would naturally become more "eco" or protective of their earth if they saw the land as their mother and giver/taker of health as earth/soil and health share the same word...
It’s refreshing to have a creator such as yourself to cover such a rich and complicated topic, especially as faith and spirituality pertains to the changing eras of Greek society and the morphology of social values over time. Do you have any books you’ve been reading or looking to cover at any point this year? Always appreciate your work 🫶
I really like your videos and points of view I live in Greece and it is shocking to find that most of the people I meet know very little about ancient Greece I'll make sure to share your videos filé mou. Efcharisto para poly
Great talk! The phenomenon of a resurgence of the earlier feminine religious sensibilities in the form of mystery religions is fascinating. It makes me wonder if the secrecy had more to do with protecting these revival trends from authorities and/or imposing outside forces, than with actual esotericism? To your point in the comments about the allure of mystery traditions, particularly in modern times, I suppose many spiritual searchers feel that metaphysics is beyond them but they hope to find someone to teach it to them, so they can finally grasp it? I’m not too keen on the idea of having to go through such secrecy to find spiritual fulfillment, but I can sympathize with the mindset. (But I will admit that if I could go back in time, I would be interested to witness the Eleusian mysteries for myself, just to see what all the fuss was about.)
I tend to agree. I think that moderns who turn to mysticism are moved by an instance that there is something important beyond the grasp of modern science. I think that instinct is correct, but failing to go deeper into what this might mean, the fall into any variety of so called mystical traditions. The result is that without even noticing, they come back into the materialist mindset they wanted to get away from. It’s almost like with psychological issues, if you don’t truly understand why you have certain unhealthy behaviors, you will never heal just by trying to correct them. Rather, your subconscious will find all sorts of insidious ways to bring you back into those problems you wanted to escape from. As for myself, I found the best attempts to move away from scientism to be in the world of Martin Heidegger. But these are really difficult texts that need a lot of dedicated time spent understanding them. So it’s much easier to speak to a medium who claims to have known you from a previous life!
@@AncientGreeceRevisited Haha I do have Heidegger on my reading list (and more Nietzsche for that matter); I just finished your book recommendation by Alain de Benoist who mentions both frequently. (But I agree the philosophers can be a lot to grasp; I for example have to read them quite slowly, sometimes with the aid of academic support material (a scholar's book translating the philosopher's writings for everyday lay people; but scholars' books have to be taken as only a partial unpacking of the material, as they tend to approach it less from a point of understanding the writer's spiritual leanings and more from the historical geopolitical setting that fostered their mindset)...
@@michellem7290I had to be tutored on Heidegger by Michael Millerman. He's gone to create paid courses on both Heidegger and others, but I was one of the lucky ones, I guess, as I met him back when he was giving 1-to1 lessons. I don't know if I would have understood Heidegger without him. In any case, it's an effort, and it's worth doing. But it's beyond the level of intellectual intensity that most are willing to give, which is a problem well understood by the ancients, that only a few will ever become philosophers. The point is not to try and turn everyone towards philosophy, but rather, to create a system that has many layers, and from which everyone can benefit. Some will see more and some less, but all will be guided towards the same direction. It's a complicated thing, and I am constantly wondering how this would look in our world today ...
Wow, that does sound helpful; I am currently reading the "Basic Writings" which includes some commentary by the compiler (mostly regarding on translation issues of certain German words) but am still just barely sort-of grasping what he's getting at in the vaguest sense (and certainly could not actually answer questions about it)@@AncientGreeceRevisited
A question. You kind of explain how the earthly orientation came to their belief system. Looking at the world around them, some would eventually understand this great cycles of life and the build upon that... But how did the Olympian orientation come to their beliefs? You explain what they believe but not how they got to them. What did they see or understand about the worlds that others did not? What is this view based upon?
Great question, but you know, the best inspiration that I have found by way of understanding religious traditions is to visit the place where they were developed. I learned more about the (so called) Incan tradition from one trip to Peru than from reading books about it. And that was NOT because I encountered some old sage who taught me, I didn't. It was simply by looking at the scenery, as well as the people who inhabit it. In Peru I understood why the Incas (or rather "Quechuas") believed the entire world was divided into levels of different "spiritual elevations:" as theirs was one of the only empires built across a mountain range! You have to see it, and you get it. Likewise, if you visit the steppes you understand the opposite, a flat world where the dominance of the immense sky is the only thing eternal. On the other side of this spiritual equation, the pre-Indo-European peoples who cultivated the earth must have seen the non-enternity of physical reality. Theirs was a world of rotting fruits and mud, bugs, snakes and the ever changing season. Hope what I wrote serves as an inspiration.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited Wow cool! I love that idea, really got inspired to travel now. This would be fascinating to think about while traveling, and I might have a reason to visit the steppe I guess haha Thx for reply!
Well, just like we hinted in this video, we are more interested in the religious elements that were present during the Golden Age of Greece rather than the Hellenistic Era. Having said that, do watch our Jason and the Argonauts 4-logy, and you'll get some interesting insights on Hecate.
Thanks for another fascinating video. Does Dimitris Liantinis's Wikipedia page accurately describe his religious views? Reading that page, I'm reminded of the fact that the Homeric, Olympian religion may to some extent be called a religion of despair, in that it does not allow for a satisfying afterlife. Did that religion carry the seeds of its own destruction by failing to satisfy the human heart's desire for hope? The rise of Christianity may have been a mixed blessing for the world, but how could the Olympians have expected to compete with its message of ultimate hope?
Liantinis was of the first to alert on this subject, so the answer is "yes" (although I hate quoting Wikipedia regarding controversial issues as the content changes too often). The way he sacrificed his own life reveals a tremendous courage of one who died without any hopes for an afterlife. It's perhaps worth mentioning that two different people who knew Liantinis personally, told me that he was part of a certain cult that taught about the possibility of reincarnation, and that dying the way he did guaranteed his rebirth. This, of course, flies in the face of all his teachings surrounding death, and if it was shown to be true, it would also show a great split within himself. The historical reality is that Liantinis *did* have a strange agreement with his wife, where he would "disappear" every Thursday (of every week), to a place that he never disclosed, and that she had to accept as part of their marriage pact. If I am to bring these two contradictory aspects together, I would say that 1. Liantinis *did* observe something that laid forgotten about Greek culture - albeit forgotten in plain sight - : that (early) Greeks were the only historical people who did *not( believe in the afterlife (they believed in "something," but that was worst than the Christian Hell). 2. Liantinis remained a Christian deep inside, which did not necessarily manifest in his belief in an afterlife, but in his insistence to a narrow morality that he saw depicted in Plato, and which I personally doubt was ever there. Liantinis was a beautiful man, who life an intense spiritual life, but reading him 20 years I first read him, I see him as less of a philosopher and more of a poet. His mind was brilliant, but it did suffer from some kind of derangement (as minor as it was).
i would love to see a video of your opinion how socrates and plato viewed the gods and the mythos, not many ppl know that they didnt take the myths as literal, but stories to extract certain wisdom and truths about ourselves, the cosmos and the gods. yet viewed the gods as perfect beings of goodness in perfect harmony with nature both seen and unseen realities. also touching on platonism and neoplatonism would be awesome. much respect and love to you and all your videos!
I think Cicero in his "On the Laws" speaks of the Eleusinian Mysteries as civilising and ennobling of character. Teaching how to live and die well. During periods of cultural decline people often look to the past roots to re-imagine and reinvigorate their present. We in the West are at a similar juncture in a post Christian world. Perhaps people are looking at the truer roots of western civilisation in the pre-christian classical world for a way forward. What will emerge? It will be very interesting to see. Thankyou for your content.
He does. But look at what he is saying. According to what we are saying in this video, the pre-Indo-European / Mother Right type religion began in the Fertile Crescent of the Near East with the advent of agriculture. Now, agriculture WAS the most civilising development in the story of the human race. The religion of which the Eleusinian mysteries are but the Greek equivalent are the "user's manual" - to to speak - of this new technology. Because as animals lost the divinity they had back in the days of hunters and fatherers, a new orientation needed to be developed in order to keep mankind's connection to the Divine. This became the fruit-bearing earth (as the poets call her) and a new "religion" was born out of it. Wherever agriculture went, this new religion followed. So, the mysteries are connected to agriculture, and agriculture to civilization.
Very interesting. Reminds me of theories that the Jötnar like Angrboda were pre-Indo-European deities. Also Lilith. From a modern take on Qabalah, Keter is the primordial masculine subjectivity that unfolds into the Sephiroth/tree of life, and Daath is the prima materia that unfolds into the Qliphoth/tree of knowledge
There are versions of Genesis where the first woman was not Eve but Lilith, who wanted to have sex with Adam by "riding" him (cowgirl-style). That too is a trace of those early Mother-Earth worshipers that got displaced by the Semites just like their European equivalents were by the Indo-Europeans.
I always viewed the religious ancient Greece as divided by Hellenistic and Chthonic, Hellenistic being what you described and closer to the worship of the world as living, with the Gods being ones that had more to do with experiencing life to the fullest, and Chthonic being more focused on death, also being called Orphic. This Orphic focus is what I thought to be more Minoan, with suggestions that it preceded the dark age, as well as Linear B translations placing more focus on the rebirth aspect and the necessity of dying, like the link between Demeter and Kore, with the Archaic age being the merger and divider between the two. Would you place this as generally accurate? I'm always looking to understand more about the subject. Any places/books you would recommend for expanding or clarifying knowledge on the subject?
Yes, this is what we believe. The "chthonic" element is Minoan while the Ouranic (which means sky-like) is Indo-European. The Orphic is definitely of the first type. It is a Dionysiac cult of reincarnation.
i would disagree in not calling those religious orientation religions. Religion is not something that necessarily needs very big institutions but rather general groups or associations which could worship the gods in the temples, something we definitely find in Ancient Greece. And i must say, i appreciated your video as you talked about a very important concept, and that is when Men get physically or politically destroyed, the last resource or way of life ends up becoming the thought of it finishing. It made sense that after the great weakening of the greek city states' spirit the cult of mysteries of Dyonisus and Hermes became more popular, in my opinion the people just started thinking that the physical and social order was not enough anymore, something that however was more consistent during the olympian era. But i fear you missed an analogy, Persephone and Dyonisus were the direct perceived gods from the earth mother, not only because of their connection to the eternal return which was very famous in Orphism and Pythagoreanism, but also because of their relationship with the earth, a relationship Persephone had with the seasons while Dyonisus with the wine and ecstasis, which would have later became the mysterious travel to the secrets of the cycles itself while at the same time being tied up with the being's rejuvenation.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited Just the correlation beetwen Persephone, Dyonisus and Mother earth's rejuvenation, but it is not a big deal as you still talked about reincarnation and the concepts of earth.
Thank you! So fascinating, I had no idea we had two different religious traditions in the past. Given the Mycenaeans worshipped a female god, I wonder if they also had a different attitude to female roles in society before patriarchy took over in the embodiment of the Olympian gods. Although the Olympian gods represented the beginning of the end for us as a civilisation, I think it wasn't until the foreign Christian religion/ "Christian" dictatorship came that we really lost touch with the greatness and innovativeness of our culture. It now ironically has the nerve to call itself the "Greek Church" 😂
Athena also called Parth-ena which it means birth of one which it meant she had no mother, she born from Zeus head and she is the goddess of wisdom. Parthena now days it means virgin.
maybe is a Universal, but internal, pulsation in the intelligence of our species, alternating its two complementary values. The exaggerations of one grow the other, while both soldier on through Evolution as one.
Chronologically, when is the Minoan civilization placed? 2000-3000 bc? 🤔 or even older? 😶🌫 What is your opinion? Εγώ πιστεύω ότι δεν μας λένε πολλά για το παρελθόν..!
The great Russian philosopher Alexander Dugin spoke precisely about the 3 logos: The Logos of Apollo, The Logos of Dionysus and The Logos of Cybele. Nietzsche spoke only about Apollo and Dionysus. But Dugin surpassing Nietzsche brought to our attention the 3rd almost forgotten logos, the logos of Cybele The Great Earth Mother. And Dugin's concept is very important to understand how the two vectors of the Greek spiritual world that were described in the video manifest as in any other civilization.
Dugin has taken these concepts from many who have predated him. Nietzsche, for sure, but also Frazier and Joseph Campbell.; I am not too certain about his 3rd "logos" however.
I think that you were showing a bias in the nomenclature and the way you are describing the two aspects of Greek religion. Since both the Indo european and indigenous people’s religions are present in Greece from the onset, to label one as older than the other is misleading. Also, since the oldest papyrus found in Europe is an orphan hymn, it is unfair to call the more spiritual side of Greece, a later historical development. It appears that mystery cults were always there. And I think the appeal of those cults were introspection, which appealed to intellectuals. But that is a whole other conversation. Suffice to say the mystery cults were there very early in the religious development of the Greek world.
But it’s you who is showing the bias! We never said that the Orphic (Mother Right) aspect of Greek culture is more spiritual, it was simply more esoteric. And it’s typical of the modern mind to conflate the two. For us, the great mystery is not in the hidden, but precisely in the opposite. It’s the mystery of Light, of Being, that this Indo European culture brought. Have a look at our recent episode on Heraclitus.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited hmm... I am not sure I understand your point so I will have to watch the Heraclitus episode as you suggest. I enjoy your videos so I expect that should be a fun watch as well. When I said bias, I meant only that you referred to the pastoral IE-originated cults as more "Greek" and the agricultural mystery cults as the later spirituality of the Hellenistic age. My point was that both were present at the inception of Greece (post IE/Indigenous mixing). Therefore the labels of one being of the Greek Archaic/classical age and the other being a child of the Hellenistic age is, in my opinion, misleading. So, mine was strictly a chronological comment, not a comment on the merits/contents/spirituality of the cults themselves. I off to watch that other video now. Thanks for the reply.
Is there any conclusive evidence about the existence of Indo-european people as an ethnic group or is Indo-european a general term used as a categorisation method for languages that share similar linguistic features?
@@afstriak0s It definitely began with language, as a linguistic theory so to speak. But from language one can extrapolate a lot about the culture that used it. For example, we can know that whoever spoke it had a decimal system of counting, because the root word changes once you get to a 10^x number (100, 1000 etc.). "Hundred" is not called "ten-ty" for example. You could also assume they were "patriarchal" since the terms like "father", "brother", and "husband's brother" are all parts of the language, while "wife's brother" and "wife's father" are not really (probably borrowed from the traditions into which those peoples settled in) Now, if you are living for a historical culture, the "Yamnaya" are probably the closest you get. They were the first archaic culture to "live on wheels" as one historian puts it, and they probably featured many of the cultural items that we closely identify with the Proto-Indo-Europeans, such as a mobile lifestyle, horses, and nomadic war bands. Hope this answers your questions.
@AncientGreeceRevisited What I am trying to understand is if people 5000 years ago or even more, just moved around the world much more than we believe, affecting each other linguistically, culturally, and biologically. If so, why does this migration have to be from India towards Europe and not the other way around and vise versa until each people based on their needs and intellect evolved. Moreover linguistic similarities in anthropological science doesn't always mean biological similarities. People may just have adopted language traits of another group they came in contact with. Anyway, theories like these indoeuropean are very confusing to me because they project certainty and generalize in a massive scale.
@@afstriak0s Well articulated my friend! And the other is YES, people *did* move much more than one might think and DID influence each other linguistically. However, you are right in suggesting that linguistic similarities do not necessarily mean genetic ones, And yet, what is often missed is how much genomic science has progressed in just the last 10 years. We now have genetic evidence of a Steppe-nomadic people coming into Europe in waves around the 2nd millenia BC. More than that! We have evidence that a certain "androcide" happened, where the male population was decimated and replaced by another while the female population remained. This *could* mean that an invation took place in which local men of the European continent were killed - in battle perhaps - and the victors, the steppe nomads we are speaking of, took their place. This is fascinating stuff! Because it puts some science on what otherwise became mythology, where Zeus and other Indo-European gods "married" (ie raped) local goddesses, demoted in water-nymphs and wood-fairies.
Interesting video but donty you say you missed the big picture? Lately I feel you are not stating the entire truth despite I told you some things a few times. Even your own teachers questions your words. . Greek head Ministry of Education prof. Mr. Georgios Babiniotis "Whoever talks about Orthodoxy in the absence of Hellenism, I think is in vain, but whoever talks about Hellenism in the absence of Orthodoxy is doing something worse; it is ugly." Clement of Alexandria, in "Stromateis" "the Apostle Paul says: "Take also the Greek Bibles, know the Sibyl, who declares one God and the future, and you will find our Lord Jesus Christ written more clearly." "The Greeks received the laws from Minos long before the appearance of Moses when Zeus appeared on the top of the mountain Idi. These laws were handed over to lithe plates, copies of which are now in the museum of Gortys and the Louvre Museum" Theologian, historian, professor, Fr George Metallenos Of the school of Athens mentions in his book "Pagan Hellenism or Greek Orthodoxy?" "That Christianity is a spiritual continuation of Hellenism, in almost everything (terminology, symbols, ritual, etc.) and the Hebrew alleloujah(added much later by heretics) is (both literally and etymologically) the sequence from Zeus to Jesus" ."The ancient Greeks were not pagans. They did not worship idols, but personified ideas and values, to which, in fact, they had given a high spiritual and ideological content. In fact, they were not, as Xenophanes the Colophonius first put it (in God... magnum), nor polytheists. ... The so-called gods of Olympus were believed to be all children of the one and only god, Zeus, and constituted a kind of numerous Holy Family or eleven (+1) Saints. On the contrary, Christians have at times, wrongly of course, been considered pagans, because of the worship of images." As the bible says the unknown God statue. Some church's do not have names of saints as well. "The goal of the Olympians was to prepare and to promote humanity under the unknown God, until the Coming That one." "The Greeks always had the knowledge and were waiting for his coming, as is evident from the prophecies of the Sibyls" could be as old as around 9000BC. John 4:25 A Samaritan (Greek) woman waiting for Christ due to the Greek Sible prophecy. Good Samaritan was how Greek Thales 600bc view "Love your fellow human even if this means hurting yourself" "The elder of beings is God, because he is unborn and has no beginning of end. " Samaria was Greek land (Sa-Maria) common Greek name. John 41-48 "Christ didn't deny he is a Samaritan yet denied demon accusation.
First of all I don’t understand what any of what you wrote has to do with our episode. If I understand you correctly, you are trying to draw a connection between Christianity and the various beliefs of ancient Greeks. I disagree with that connection. I don’t care what Babiniotis said, he is certainly not on the same intellectual plane as Castoriadis and Heidegger! The core, the essence of Ancient Greece was radically different, and in some ways opposed to, Christianity. The fact that early Christmas has to pass the “Greek test” by showing themselves worthy of the philosophers says nothing about the contents of either Christianity or Greek philosophy. But still, whatever the case might be, I don’t understand the connection with this episode. It feels like you just want to prove a certain point and found this thread almost at random.
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Thanks for clarifying this difference. I am also so fascinated by what Bronze age and "tribal" earlier Greece was like. Living on the Greek islandof Ikaria, I like to imagine how it was as I look up into the hills and out to the sea. I really feel like modern greeks and the people in general would naturally become more "eco" or protective of their earth if they saw the land as their mother and giver/taker of health as earth/soil and health share the same word...
It’s refreshing to have a creator such as yourself to cover such a rich and complicated topic, especially as faith and spirituality pertains to the changing eras of Greek society and the morphology of social values over time. Do you have any books you’ve been reading or looking to cover at any point this year? Always appreciate your work 🫶
One of my favourites has always been W. F. Otto's "The Homeric Gods."
@@AncientGreeceRevisited Geia sou Michailidi
Excellent video! Love the way you elaborate the difference between pre indoeuropean and indoeuropean religion.
Mad respect for making so many quality videos on such an interesting subject!
Thank you very much!
I really like your videos and points of view I live in Greece and it is shocking to find that most of the people I meet know very little about ancient Greece I'll make sure to share your videos filé mou.
Efcharisto para poly
Thank you very much! Please share 😁
Really enjoyed this! Subscribed!
Welcome aboard!
Great talk! The phenomenon of a resurgence of the earlier feminine religious sensibilities in the form of mystery religions is fascinating. It makes me wonder if the secrecy had more to do with protecting these revival trends from authorities and/or imposing outside forces, than with actual esotericism?
To your point in the comments about the allure of mystery traditions, particularly in modern times, I suppose many spiritual searchers feel that metaphysics is beyond them but they hope to find someone to teach it to them, so they can finally grasp it? I’m not too keen on the idea of having to go through such secrecy to find spiritual fulfillment, but I can sympathize with the mindset. (But I will admit that if I could go back in time, I would be interested to witness the Eleusian mysteries for myself, just to see what all the fuss was about.)
I tend to agree. I think that moderns who turn to mysticism are moved by an instance that there is something important beyond the grasp of modern science. I think that instinct is correct, but failing to go deeper into what this might mean, the fall into any variety of so called mystical traditions. The result is that without even noticing, they come back into the materialist mindset they wanted to get away from. It’s almost like with psychological issues, if you don’t truly understand why you have certain unhealthy behaviors, you will never heal just by trying to correct them. Rather, your subconscious will find all sorts of insidious ways to bring you back into those problems you wanted to escape from.
As for myself, I found the best attempts to move away from scientism to be in the world of Martin Heidegger. But these are really difficult texts that need a lot of dedicated time spent understanding them. So it’s much easier to speak to a medium who claims to have known you from a previous life!
@@AncientGreeceRevisited Haha I do have Heidegger on my reading list (and more Nietzsche for that matter); I just finished your book recommendation by Alain de Benoist who mentions both frequently. (But I agree the philosophers can be a lot to grasp; I for example have to read them quite slowly, sometimes with the aid of academic support material (a scholar's book translating the philosopher's writings for everyday lay people; but scholars' books have to be taken as only a partial unpacking of the material, as they tend to approach it less from a point of understanding the writer's spiritual leanings and more from the historical geopolitical setting that fostered their mindset)...
@@michellem7290I had to be tutored on Heidegger by Michael Millerman. He's gone to create paid courses on both Heidegger and others, but I was one of the lucky ones, I guess, as I met him back when he was giving 1-to1 lessons. I don't know if I would have understood Heidegger without him. In any case, it's an effort, and it's worth doing. But it's beyond the level of intellectual intensity that most are willing to give, which is a problem well understood by the ancients, that only a few will ever become philosophers. The point is not to try and turn everyone towards philosophy, but rather, to create a system that has many layers, and from which everyone can benefit. Some will see more and some less, but all will be guided towards the same direction. It's a complicated thing, and I am constantly wondering how this would look in our world today ...
Wow, that does sound helpful; I am currently reading the "Basic Writings" which includes some commentary by the compiler (mostly regarding on translation issues of certain German words) but am still just barely sort-of grasping what he's getting at in the vaguest sense (and certainly could not actually answer questions about it)@@AncientGreeceRevisited
What is the name of the movie showing at 05:12?
Jason and the Argonauts (1963)
I cant tell you how much i love this channel.. as a beginner into Hellenism ❤.. ill def rewatch it & many others multiple times ❤❤❤
Thank you! Help us spread the word!
always good. Modest and authoritative.
A question.
You kind of explain how the earthly orientation came to their belief system. Looking at the world around them, some would eventually understand this great cycles of life and the build upon that...
But how did the Olympian orientation come to their beliefs? You explain what they believe but not how they got to them.
What did they see or understand about the worlds that others did not?
What is this view based upon?
Great question, but you know, the best inspiration that I have found by way of understanding religious traditions is to visit the place where they were developed. I learned more about the (so called) Incan tradition from one trip to Peru than from reading books about it. And that was NOT because I encountered some old sage who taught me, I didn't. It was simply by looking at the scenery, as well as the people who inhabit it. In Peru I understood why the Incas (or rather "Quechuas") believed the entire world was divided into levels of different "spiritual elevations:" as theirs was one of the only empires built across a mountain range! You have to see it, and you get it.
Likewise, if you visit the steppes you understand the opposite, a flat world where the dominance of the immense sky is the only thing eternal. On the other side of this spiritual equation, the pre-Indo-European peoples who cultivated the earth must have seen the non-enternity of physical reality. Theirs was a world of rotting fruits and mud, bugs, snakes and the ever changing season.
Hope what I wrote serves as an inspiration.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited Wow cool! I love that idea, really got inspired to travel now.
This would be fascinating to think about while traveling, and I might have a reason to visit the steppe I guess haha
Thx for reply!
@@KarmaTV4GWell, be careful now, most of these Steppes fall inside of Ukraine ;-)
@@AncientGreeceRevisited such an ingeniously simple answer! Greece is definitely on my bucket list ;)
fantastic video
Excellent video my friend
Long Live the Ancient Dreams!
Hello. Could you make a video about Hecate and her origins . And other geek goods in depth.
Well, just like we hinted in this video, we are more interested in the religious elements that were present during the Golden Age of Greece rather than the Hellenistic Era. Having said that, do watch our Jason and the Argonauts 4-logy, and you'll get some interesting insights on Hecate.
Thanks for another fascinating video. Does Dimitris Liantinis's Wikipedia page accurately describe his religious views? Reading that page, I'm reminded of the fact that the Homeric, Olympian religion may to some extent be called a religion of despair, in that it does not allow for a satisfying afterlife. Did that religion carry the seeds of its own destruction by failing to satisfy the human heart's desire for hope? The rise of Christianity may have been a mixed blessing for the world, but how could the Olympians have expected to compete with its message of ultimate hope?
Liantinis was of the first to alert on this subject, so the answer is "yes" (although I hate quoting Wikipedia regarding controversial issues as the content changes too often). The way he sacrificed his own life reveals a tremendous courage of one who died without any hopes for an afterlife.
It's perhaps worth mentioning that two different people who knew Liantinis personally, told me that he was part of a certain cult that taught about the possibility of reincarnation, and that dying the way he did guaranteed his rebirth. This, of course, flies in the face of all his teachings surrounding death, and if it was shown to be true, it would also show a great split within himself. The historical reality is that Liantinis *did* have a strange agreement with his wife, where he would "disappear" every Thursday (of every week), to a place that he never disclosed, and that she had to accept as part of their marriage pact.
If I am to bring these two contradictory aspects together, I would say that
1. Liantinis *did* observe something that laid forgotten about Greek culture - albeit forgotten in plain sight - : that (early) Greeks were the only historical people who did *not( believe in the afterlife (they believed in "something," but that was worst than the Christian Hell).
2. Liantinis remained a Christian deep inside, which did not necessarily manifest in his belief in an afterlife, but in his insistence to a narrow morality that he saw depicted in Plato, and which I personally doubt was ever there.
Liantinis was a beautiful man, who life an intense spiritual life, but reading him 20 years I first read him, I see him as less of a philosopher and more of a poet. His mind was brilliant, but it did suffer from some kind of derangement (as minor as it was).
i would love to see a video of your opinion how socrates and plato viewed the gods and the mythos, not many ppl know that they didnt take the myths as literal, but stories to extract certain wisdom and truths about ourselves, the cosmos and the gods. yet viewed the gods as perfect beings of goodness in perfect harmony with nature both seen and unseen realities. also touching on platonism and neoplatonism would be awesome. much respect and love to you and all your videos!
Yes, that is a topic of great interest. Be assured we're going to address it shortly. Thank you for watching.
I think Cicero in his "On the Laws" speaks of the Eleusinian Mysteries as civilising and ennobling of character. Teaching how to live and die well. During periods of cultural decline people often look to the past roots to re-imagine and reinvigorate their present. We in the West are at a similar juncture in a post Christian world. Perhaps people are looking at the truer roots of western civilisation in the pre-christian classical world for a way forward. What will emerge? It will be very interesting to see. Thankyou for your content.
He does. But look at what he is saying. According to what we are saying in this video, the pre-Indo-European / Mother Right type religion began in the Fertile Crescent of the Near East with the advent of agriculture. Now, agriculture WAS the most civilising development in the story of the human race. The religion of which the Eleusinian mysteries are but the Greek equivalent are the "user's manual" - to to speak - of this new technology. Because as animals lost the divinity they had back in the days of hunters and fatherers, a new orientation needed to be developed in order to keep mankind's connection to the Divine. This became the fruit-bearing earth (as the poets call her) and a new "religion" was born out of it. Wherever agriculture went, this new religion followed. So, the mysteries are connected to agriculture, and agriculture to civilization.
Very interesting. Reminds me of theories that the Jötnar like Angrboda were pre-Indo-European deities. Also Lilith. From a modern take on Qabalah, Keter is the primordial masculine subjectivity that unfolds into the Sephiroth/tree of life, and Daath is the prima materia that unfolds into the Qliphoth/tree of knowledge
There are versions of Genesis where the first woman was not Eve but Lilith, who wanted to have sex with Adam by "riding" him (cowgirl-style). That too is a trace of those early Mother-Earth worshipers that got displaced by the Semites just like their European equivalents were by the Indo-Europeans.
I always viewed the religious ancient Greece as divided by Hellenistic and Chthonic, Hellenistic being what you described and closer to the worship of the world as living, with the Gods being ones that had more to do with experiencing life to the fullest, and Chthonic being more focused on death, also being called Orphic. This Orphic focus is what I thought to be more Minoan, with suggestions that it preceded the dark age, as well as Linear B translations placing more focus on the rebirth aspect and the necessity of dying, like the link between Demeter and Kore, with the Archaic age being the merger and divider between the two.
Would you place this as generally accurate? I'm always looking to understand more about the subject. Any places/books you would recommend for expanding or clarifying knowledge on the subject?
Yes, this is what we believe. The "chthonic" element is Minoan while the Ouranic (which means sky-like) is Indo-European. The Orphic is definitely of the first type. It is a Dionysiac cult of reincarnation.
i would disagree in not calling those religious orientation religions. Religion is not something that necessarily needs very big institutions but rather general groups or associations which could worship the gods in the temples, something we definitely find in Ancient Greece.
And i must say, i appreciated your video as you talked about a very important concept, and that is when Men get physically or politically destroyed, the last resource or way of life ends up becoming the thought of it finishing.
It made sense that after the great weakening of the greek city states' spirit the cult of mysteries of Dyonisus and Hermes became more popular, in my opinion the people just started thinking that the physical and social order was not enough anymore, something that however was more consistent during the olympian era.
But i fear you missed an analogy, Persephone and Dyonisus were the direct perceived gods from the earth mother, not only because of their connection to the eternal return which was very famous in Orphism and Pythagoreanism, but also because of their relationship with the earth, a relationship Persephone had with the seasons while Dyonisus with the wine and ecstasis, which would have later became the mysterious travel to the secrets of the cycles itself while at the same time being tied up with the being's rejuvenation.
I agree on all accounts, and therefore cannot understand what we "missed" as you wrote above ...
@@AncientGreeceRevisited Just the correlation beetwen Persephone, Dyonisus and Mother earth's rejuvenation, but it is not a big deal as you still talked about reincarnation and the concepts of earth.
Thank you! So fascinating, I had no idea we had two different religious traditions in the past. Given the Mycenaeans worshipped a female god, I wonder if they also had a different attitude to female roles in society before patriarchy took over in the embodiment of the Olympian gods. Although the Olympian gods represented the beginning of the end for us as a civilisation, I think it wasn't until the foreign Christian religion/ "Christian" dictatorship came that we really lost touch with the greatness and innovativeness of our culture. It now ironically has the nerve to call itself the "Greek Church" 😂
Athena also called Parth-ena which it means birth of one which it meant she had no mother, she born from Zeus head and she is the goddess of wisdom.
Parthena now days it means virgin.
She was hysterical and losing control of her emotions: so she was a real female, unlike the Postmodern Girl Boss.
She was the male impression of a true female. It could work the other way as well.
maybe is a Universal, but internal, pulsation in the intelligence of our species, alternating its two complementary values. The exaggerations of one grow the other, while both soldier on through Evolution as one.
Well said ...
Chronologically, when is the Minoan civilization placed?
2000-3000 bc? 🤔 or even older? 😶🌫 What is your opinion?
Εγώ πιστεύω ότι δεν μας λένε πολλά για το παρελθόν..!
Somewhere near 2700 BC from what I understand.
Report good
The great Russian philosopher Alexander Dugin spoke precisely about the 3 logos: The Logos of Apollo, The Logos of Dionysus and The Logos of Cybele. Nietzsche spoke only about Apollo and Dionysus. But Dugin surpassing Nietzsche brought to our attention the 3rd almost forgotten logos, the logos of Cybele The Great Earth Mother. And Dugin's concept is very important to understand how the two vectors of the Greek spiritual world that were described in the video manifest as in any other civilization.
Dugin has taken these concepts from many who have predated him. Nietzsche, for sure, but also Frazier and Joseph Campbell.; I am not too certain about his 3rd "logos" however.
I think that you were showing a bias in the nomenclature and the way you are describing the two aspects of Greek religion. Since both the Indo european and indigenous people’s religions are present in Greece from the onset, to label one as older than the other is misleading. Also, since the oldest papyrus found in Europe is an orphan hymn, it is unfair to call the more spiritual side of Greece, a later historical development. It appears that mystery cults were always there. And I think the appeal of those cults were introspection, which appealed to intellectuals. But that is a whole other conversation. Suffice to say the mystery cults were there very early in the religious development of the Greek world.
But it’s you who is showing the bias! We never said that the Orphic (Mother Right) aspect of Greek culture is more spiritual, it was simply more esoteric. And it’s typical of the modern mind to conflate the two. For us, the great mystery is not in the hidden, but precisely in the opposite. It’s the mystery of Light, of Being, that this Indo European culture brought. Have a look at our recent episode on Heraclitus.
@@AncientGreeceRevisited hmm... I am not sure I understand your point so I will have to watch the Heraclitus episode as you suggest. I enjoy your videos so I expect that should be a fun watch as well.
When I said bias, I meant only that you referred to the pastoral IE-originated cults as more "Greek" and the agricultural mystery cults as the later spirituality of the Hellenistic age.
My point was that both were present at the inception of Greece (post IE/Indigenous mixing).
Therefore the labels of one being of the Greek Archaic/classical age and the other being a child of the Hellenistic age is, in my opinion, misleading.
So, mine was strictly a chronological comment, not a comment on the merits/contents/spirituality of the cults themselves.
I off to watch that other video now. Thanks for the reply.
Indo-european cultures? Never really understood what those are.
They were the cultures that spoke Proto-Indo-European.
Is there any conclusive evidence about the existence of Indo-european people as an ethnic group or is Indo-european a general term used as a categorisation method for languages that share similar linguistic features?
@@afstriak0s It definitely began with language, as a linguistic theory so to speak. But from language one can extrapolate a lot about the culture that used it. For example, we can know that whoever spoke it had a decimal system of counting, because the root word changes once you get to a 10^x number (100, 1000 etc.). "Hundred" is not called "ten-ty" for example. You could also assume they were "patriarchal" since the terms like "father", "brother", and "husband's brother" are all parts of the language, while "wife's brother" and "wife's father" are not really (probably borrowed from the traditions into which those peoples settled in)
Now, if you are living for a historical culture, the "Yamnaya" are probably the closest you get. They were the first archaic culture to "live on wheels" as one historian puts it, and they probably featured many of the cultural items that we closely identify with the Proto-Indo-Europeans, such as a mobile lifestyle, horses, and nomadic war bands.
Hope this answers your questions.
@AncientGreeceRevisited
What I am trying to understand is if people 5000 years ago or even more, just moved around the world much more than we believe, affecting each other linguistically, culturally, and biologically. If so, why does this migration have to be from India towards Europe and not the other way around and vise versa until each people based on their needs and intellect evolved. Moreover linguistic similarities in anthropological science doesn't always mean biological similarities. People may just have adopted language traits of another group they came in contact with. Anyway, theories like these indoeuropean are very confusing to me because they project certainty and generalize in a massive scale.
@@afstriak0s Well articulated my friend! And the other is YES, people *did* move much more than one might think and DID influence each other linguistically. However, you are right in suggesting that linguistic similarities do not necessarily mean genetic ones, And yet, what is often missed is how much genomic science has progressed in just the last 10 years. We now have genetic evidence of a Steppe-nomadic people coming into Europe in waves around the 2nd millenia BC. More than that! We have evidence that a certain "androcide" happened, where the male population was decimated and replaced by another while the female population remained. This *could* mean that an invation took place in which local men of the European continent were killed - in battle perhaps - and the victors, the steppe nomads we are speaking of, took their place.
This is fascinating stuff! Because it puts some science on what otherwise became mythology, where Zeus and other Indo-European gods "married" (ie raped) local goddesses, demoted in water-nymphs and wood-fairies.
I preffer the Olympian Faith.
Interesting video but donty you say you missed the big picture?
Lately I feel you are not stating the entire truth despite I told you some things a few times. Even your own teachers questions your words. .
Greek head Ministry of Education prof. Mr. Georgios Babiniotis "Whoever talks about Orthodoxy in the absence of Hellenism, I think is in vain, but whoever talks about Hellenism in the absence of Orthodoxy is doing something worse; it is ugly."
Clement of Alexandria, in "Stromateis" "the Apostle Paul says: "Take also the Greek Bibles, know the Sibyl, who declares one God and the future, and you will find our Lord Jesus Christ written more clearly."
"The Greeks received the laws from Minos long before the appearance of Moses when Zeus appeared on the top of the mountain Idi. These laws were handed over to lithe plates, copies of which are now in the museum of Gortys and the Louvre Museum"
Theologian, historian, professor, Fr George Metallenos Of the school of Athens mentions in his book "Pagan Hellenism or Greek Orthodoxy?" "That Christianity is a spiritual continuation of Hellenism, in almost everything (terminology, symbols, ritual, etc.) and the Hebrew alleloujah(added much later by heretics) is (both literally and etymologically) the sequence from Zeus to Jesus"
."The ancient Greeks were not pagans. They did not worship idols, but personified ideas and values, to which, in fact, they had given a high spiritual and ideological content. In fact, they were not, as Xenophanes the Colophonius first put it (in God... magnum), nor polytheists. ... The so-called gods of Olympus were believed to be all children of the one and only god, Zeus, and constituted a kind of numerous Holy Family or eleven (+1) Saints. On the contrary, Christians have at times, wrongly of course, been considered pagans, because of the worship of images."
As the bible says the unknown God statue. Some church's do not have names of saints as well. "The goal of the Olympians was to prepare and to promote humanity under the unknown God, until the Coming That one."
"The Greeks always had the knowledge and were waiting for his coming, as is evident from the prophecies of the Sibyls" could be as old as around 9000BC.
John 4:25 A Samaritan (Greek) woman waiting for Christ due to the Greek Sible prophecy.
Good Samaritan was how Greek Thales 600bc view "Love your fellow human even if this means hurting yourself" "The elder of beings is God, because he is unborn and has no beginning of end. "
Samaria was Greek land (Sa-Maria) common Greek name.
John 41-48 "Christ didn't deny he is a Samaritan yet denied demon accusation.
First of all I don’t understand what any of what you wrote has to do with our episode.
If I understand you correctly, you are trying to draw a connection between Christianity and the various beliefs of ancient Greeks. I disagree with that connection. I don’t care what Babiniotis said, he is certainly not on the same intellectual plane as Castoriadis and Heidegger! The core, the essence of Ancient Greece was radically different, and in some ways opposed to, Christianity. The fact that early Christmas has to pass the “Greek test” by showing themselves worthy of the philosophers says nothing about the contents of either Christianity or Greek philosophy.
But still, whatever the case might be, I don’t understand the connection with this episode. It feels like you just want to prove a certain point and found this thread almost at random.
Η καλύτερη που θα μπορούσε να σε μυήσει στη γνώση των μυστηρίων είναι η κα Μαρία Μαραγκού.
Στην άποψη μας η κ Μαραγκού συγχέει ακριβώς τις δύο αυτές τάσεις για τις οποίες μιλήσαμε στο βίντεο.
Stole first creation history, made their history