2023 NEC changes: GFCI protection (210.8)
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- Опубліковано 7 сер 2024
- This video covers the 2023 NEC changes in 210.8 for GFCI protection. *Note that 210.8(B)(4) should read "food SERVING and beverage SERVING, not food PREPARING and beverage PREPARING."
The 2023 edition of the National Electrical Code will be published in September of 2022. - Наука та технологія
![GFCI Receptacle Protection, Dwelling Units [210.8(A), 2020 NEC Changes]](/img/n.gif)
Might as well just install dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers for the whole house and just be done with it.
I'm green (trying to get to be a journeyman), but that's the way I see it. If I do that no body will be mad at me later.
At this point we should price it that way
Would simplify things a lot.
Agreed. AFCI/GFI breakers for every circuit. Future-proof.
Totally agree! The NEC 2023 is just unnecessarily complicated in that maner!
Seems it would be easier just to list what doesn't need GFCI protection.
in Europe, you GFCI everything, Arc-flash protectors are becoming mandatory to wet & dwelling rooms.
E V E R Y T H I N G!!!
Just make all breakers GFCI
Thanks for paying close attention to NEC updates. Very helpful.
I’ve been waiting on these to start coming out from you. I learned so much from the last code cycle.
Just found your channel! Awesome content! Thank you for taking the time to help us to understand the NEC!!!
Thank you, Ryan for these clarifications. Thank you for what you do for all of us. Its up to us to keep informed. So cheers, from Pennsylvania 👍
Thank you Ryan for your help and support for all of us Sparkys out here in the field.
Ryan, this is good information. Thanks for helping us electricians to interpret the new code.
Ryan, thanks for the update as always!
The NEC should just make a code change to have every outlet to be GFCI protected. This has gone beyond crazy.
And then in 2026 they’ll need to be AFCI/GFCI dual function.
Awesome 2023 start Ryan. Great video.
Ryan, I just came across your channel. Great teaching. My wife and have low income investment property and always use licensed contractors but sometimes have disagreements on scope. Understanding the new requirements helps me ask the right questions up front and avoid the disagreements. Thank you for the timely teaching. I look forward to watching more of your videos.
Love the channel brother. I am a safety manager in the construction industry. Just purchased the 70E book to study. Will need it as we are building a Data center near Dulles airport Va.
Thank you for this summarization! As a DIY homeowner on many projects, i prefer to follow all codes up to or beyond those required in my area, so this is excellent information to help in the "keeping up" process.
Great stuff here Ryan, looking forward to your book!
Thanks for keeping us informed!
I am a Home Inspector in Texas and your photo of the bathroom requiring the bedroom receptacle to be GFCI protected was spot on. I recently inspected a home where the GFCI receptacle was on the left side of the sink while the still plugged in curling iron was plugged in the non-GFCI receptacle. There was nothing plugged into the GFCI so my reasoning was the user of the curling iron was right handed and was more convenient since the GFCI was operating properly. I left the home owner a note explaining the danger but your videos are FANTASTIC and extremely helpful.
If the bathroom was wired properly, the single GFCI outlet protects the other outlets in the bathroom.
Aren't "windows" by definition EXCLUSIVELY installed on EXTERIOR WALLS?
@@MR-nl8xr As he so clearly tries to explain, a Window may be defined ambiguously. We had an old house, originally a log box circa 1920; during its multiple expansion/remodels, a garage space (later converted to large work studio) was added, and right there was one of the original windows, with sliding glass, facing not the great outdoors, but the work studio. "By definition" LITERALLY means one had better take the time to actually define every critical term used, whenever laws or codes are developed.
if it was wired properly that outlet was hooked to the load side of the GFCI if not thats very dangerous as it could lure people into false sense of security
I am an international student studying construction engineer. You are the best person to explain the electrical code
Thanks
Thank you for clearing this up about the bathroom exhaust fans
As always, Amazing video!
Looking forward to getting the book as I will be testing for JW under 2023 code. As always, love how you keep things concise and clear and use examples from the field. Mike Holt's videos are near unwatchable with all his tangents and fluff. Thanks
Thank you! Can't wait to buy your book
Dual function everything. Got it👍
Great work. Thanks for all the help
Great video thanks for putting in the effort to make it
Outstanding!! Thanks for breaking it down
Love the content.. thanks
Thank you for sharing your knowledge
I've watched this for 4 minutes. Subscribing, time now.
Great explanation, Ryan! FWIW, the TIA for 210.8(F) shown was for 2020 NEC®; HVAC could not meet THEIR OWN January 1, 2023, so TIAs and/or Appeals MIGHT extend this to 2025 or 2026.
Nice, so now the 20A breaker for a mini-split is $120 instead of $28... Don't tell me Square D et al. don't have their fingers in the pie that is the NEC...
Manufacturers (or any other group on the CMPs) cannot make up more than 1/3 of the CMP. It takes a 2/3 majority to pass any code change. So yes, you are incorrect.
They pretty much wrote every article about how great AFCI was and why we need them when they first came out... All about profits and nothing to do about "safety"...
@@FJB2020 you're opinion is incorrect.
@@jeffbower5525 'Your'
@@FJB2020 Thanks Mr. Grammar Nazi
Good stuff, great vid. I wish I got continuing education credit for this, this is better then Jade Learning!
Excellent video .
21:53 The wording was technically correct either way. Previously, it said "indoor damp and wet locations" meaning "indoor damp locations and wet locations". Now it says "indoor damp or wet locations" meaning "indoor locations which are damp or wet".
Technically, "damp and wet locations" could be interpreted as either "(damp locations) and (wet locations)" or as "(damp and wet) locations", but as you said, it actually logically does not make sense for a location to be both damp and wet at the same time, so the phrase clearly must be intended to mean the former, not the latter. It arguably still doesn't hurt to remove the ambiguity if possible, though...
I actually made up an SO cord with cord cap that is 6' long from cord cap face to end of cord for measuring this. I obviously did not terminate the conductors in the cord cap.
On the topic of GFI's for outside units, the "150 V or less to ground' might be mis-interpreted if a unit only has 240 vac feed with no neutral. It does have less than 150v to ground measured from either L1 or L2 to ground but the unit itself only runs on 240vac which is greater than 150v.
Further confusing the interpretation is "if supplied by single-phase branch circuit" may be interpreted as 120 vac only branch circuit.
I do understand the intent. After several years in my new house my 240 AC sprinkler pump died. When I went to install a new pump I discovered the ground wire was not originally connected to pump motor case. If the motor winding developed a short to case there could have been 120 vac on the case of pump to ground. Same can happen with an air conditioner metal case.
The problem with mini-splits and some variable speed compressors is their switching power supplies for three phase inverter VFD have some small EMI bypass capacitors to metal case ground, so they meet EMI (radio interference emissions) specifications. This creates a small amount of current on ground wire that creates the GFI ground fault.
Do you really think an A/C service shop replacing an old 240vac outside air conditioner compressor unit is going to get the old non-GFI equipped 240vac feed to outside unit upgraded with GFI breaker in fuse box?
Super. Back when I first started putting in GFCI outlets, three to five out of every ten I bought were bad or died within a month. Even back then I realized that it was a bad idea to have a GFCI in one bathroom protecting another bathrooms outlet, so I put a GFCI outlet wherever required. $40 each back then, but 100% customer satisfaction. They ought to just make every breaker a GFCI/AFCI mechanism, but if they do, I am going to stock up on regular breakers. 💙 T.E.N. Edit: I just removed the GFCI protection from my refrigerator, and installed separate heavy duty 120 volt 20 ampere NON GFCI/AFCI outlets, one in my garage, one in the hall, and one to the sump pump. Now I just plug the vacuum to the hall outlet, no more refrigerator dying, the sump pump will run until the power dies, and the garage one is for the tools and equipment that don't like AFCI protection, and for my RV, which trips an AFCI breaker, but not a GFCI, which was traced to an in vehicle battery charger. 💙 T.E.N.
If the refrigerator or freezer is made before the 90s code change requiring GFCIs on outlets near the sink in kitchens, that fridge or freezer might trip the GFCI. New ones are more likely to withstand tripping a GFCI. You can always use a battery backup pack to buffer the fridge and keep it running if a GFCI trips behind it. You will usually hear a backup beeping if a circuit trips.
@@maxheadroom8857 What kind of battery backup? The ones you use for computers? Those are not designed for inductive loads.
@@jovetj An electronics shop might have a backup that will power a fridge
The major appliances in my kitchen have been on GFCI for years. Kitchen sink is metal cabinet with stainless top. Appliances are all stainless steel. An older dishwasher I had, caught fire while running. The heating element apparently rusted and leaked, blew up, and blew out almost a foot of the coiled wire without breaking it, against the back of the plastic tub. The tub caught fire, causing molten, burning plastic to drip onto the floor and onto the 1/4 inch nylon water feed to the refrigerator. The plastic tubing developed a pinhole that sprayed water all over the back wall and under the dishwasher. Allowing the dishwasher to finish its cycle without burning my house down. Gallons of water covered the kitchen floor and rained into the unfinished basement.
The new dishwasher has a stainless tub and a gfci service switch installed at the counter.
My Whirlpool French door refrigerator tripped the gfci receptacle one day. I located the control board and traced the trouble to the ice maker. The heating element developed a high resistance short from hot to ground. The gfci tripped when the ice maker started to eject the ice and powered up the heater to free the ice from the tray to push it out. The gfci saved the refrigerator from damage to the control board and a melted wiring harness. All it needed was a new ice maker.
On your refrigerator- I'm assuming you caught it before the food went bad? Because you'd need all new food to lol.
Also similar to your dishwasher incident- My house had a short to ground which sent amps through the entire ground system without tripping breakers. Well, the cable tv system was bonded to all of this (per code) and it melted the coax. The coax turned orange and started a fire on the outer vinyl siding. The flaming, dripping vinyl siding dripped onto the PEX supply pipe running up the outside wall, melted a hole into the PEX, which sprayed out a steady stream of water ONTO THE SIDING which put out the fire and prevented the house from burning down. This all happened at 4am while we slept. Talk about luck!
@@stargazer2504 WOW!
That's 2 points in favor of plastic plumbing!
You and @tracynation2820 present great object lessons, regarding the cost/benefit trade-offs, between obstinately refusing to accept NEC upgrades, and the "expense" related to a few hundred dollars of spoiled food. One burnt dishwasher, > $500; siding fire, plumbing leak and damage, a few $1000; burnt house, your call. A couple hours of electrician labor, and new receptacles or breakers, against all that other stuff, seems pretty obvious. Not even factoring in a 4 am fire and lives inside. But, hey, Freedom, and all that. Is your flag fire-resistant?
You speak like someone who would be proud to keep a slightly damaged extension cord around because it still works fine. Then your daughter chooses it to power her iPhone while she's in the tub. Result: A sad ending to a teenage girl's life. But hey, FREEDOM.
@@z1522 can you quote where my story stated I was "obstinately refusing to accept NEC upgrades" and "expense"?
I was merely sharing a coincidental story that happened to us.
Where do you get the idea that we were rebuking the NEC code for "our freedom" at the expense of our LIVES? Please explain, if you even can.
Sure glad I don't have to worry about codes around here.. I would hate to shell out 3k in breakers just to pass inspection and tear them all out again and replace with normal ones..
🤣
10:00 "... it probably isn't adding that much to the cost..."
Sounds like politicians -not their money being spent.
FACT: a little here, a little there ADDS UP TO A LOT IN THE END.
More like manufacturers' lobbying to ADD MORE SALES AND PROFITS..
exactly what it is conter tops and bathrooms weres there water yes eery were else no thanks
The commercial kitchen sink at 21:00 is in a stainless frame and counter. Wouldn't that extent the 6' rule as the entire countertop is conductive.
Appears to be conflicting GFCI rules. Great that the GFCI for garage ceiling door opener receptacles must be readily accessible why 700# vending machines must have a GFCI built into cord believe within 18" of the male plug. Problem with that when there are rows of vending machines might need a trained rat to reset cord GFCI without getting a hernia moving machine. Thanks for another great vidio. When we wired in areas with more then 3 or 4 vending machines would try to install a panel nearby with a cover that can be locked to make it easier to secure it reset a circuit breaker.
If you came expecting common sense, you'll be sorely disappointed.
whjy does the garage door opener even *NEED* to be on a GFCI though not somehting you are going to touch when went
Definitely interesting. I'm not an electrician but in my state the homeowner is allowed to do their own electrical. Always check your state codes. Last year when I wired a minisplit (one that won't work on GFCI) my state hadn't adopted the 2020 NEC yet (whenever I tackle a large electrical project I always check). However they did so on July 1st this year and interestingly they specifically struck out the requirements for GFCI on outlets over 125V. So someone with sway in the statehouse didn't want to get with the times yet.
In my town, about the only thing you can change without pulling a permit is a light switch trim plate. Gotta love it, tax mafia.
It's adding a lot of cost if you already bought the AFCI and now you have to go back and buy a dual purpose one.
this is only for new/replacements not already installed equipment.
Not a bad rule about not having to protect ceiling fans with GFCI protection. In my 50 plus years as a sparky never saw the commonest style fan motor , A shaded pole ever short or ground out . Had the exact same type of motor on my early 1960's erector set 120 volt motors. Been years since I took a shaded pole fan motor apart but kinda remember that the enamel motor wire is only in contact with either a maroon fiber material or plastic vastly limiting those motor wire from grounding out.
Very informative
In the process of wiring my house. Glad the Home Depot has a good return policy because as soon as my inspection is done I'll be returning all the unnecessary gfci breakers and returning $$ to my account!!!
Great information Sir. Sooner or later every outlet in a home will be GFCI protected. Just wait for it.
That's probably a good assumption.
27:30 without any doubt… those ACs whips are romex from the disconnect to hole in the wall then into 3/4 lfnc to the unit. Romex outdoor. Done here in texas 80 percent of the time 🥴
Hey Ryan, When applying 215.2 (A) (1) (b) for a continuous load, would you do the 310.14 calculations based off 100% or 125% of the continuous load?
Ryan, I suspect a welder outlet would be a branch circuit but an RV outlet would be considered a feeder circuit.
Great vid. When u going back on mike holt panel to be in his recordings???
This may be borderline but: in (4) buffet serving areas - does the buffet structure include ice wells to hold bottled beverages that may be uncorked and poured at the buffet structure? P.S. Thanks for a great video.
Great video, Nils !!😉👍
I guess if a window cannot be opened it is a fixed barrier?
some inspectors will cut you slack on a window that does not open. (screwed, glued, or caulked shut)
Re the fan, you always install devices per the manufacturers instructions. And assume that they will include the ETL instructions.
Thanks for taking the time to make these videos for us. They’re Informative and we’ll presented.
Tip for your viewers… spa disconnects come with a 50 or 60 amp GFCI breaker at a lower cost than buying the breaker separately. I’ll use those at the HVAC equipment for GFCI protection and the breaker at the panel for overcurrent protection. Especially since 2 pole 20 or 30amp GFCI breakers are turning into unicorns.
Most likely can't use a 50 or 60 amp spa disconnect as it will exceed the Max OCPD for the condenser.
@@jeffbower5525 as long as the breaker feeding the spa panel is the right size,, it would be fine, no?
@@ChrisMeyersBigPickles222 no, the branch circuit OCPD can't exceed the MOCPD on the nameplate. If you install an OCPD after the breaker in the panel you have made that the panel breaker is not the branch circuit OCPD but rather a feeder OCPD.
I'll look at verbiage when I get home but I'm pretty sure this is how it ends up working.
No different than a 60 amp breaker feeding a sub panel with 100 amp Main
@@ChrisMeyersBigPickles222 You can't exceed the MOCPD rating (or 175% of the Motor compressor rated load current, whichever is greater) for the BRANCH CIRCUIT. If you use an OCPD at the disconnect the feeder OCPD value is irrelevant as part III of article 440 is for BRANCH CIRCUIT short circuit and ground fault protection. See 440.22(A) it specifically says branch circuit. So I am correct that you can't do this type install on the vast majority of the A/C installs.
Hopefully the cost will go down for the breakers.
For my own home, all of my breakers are the dumb style so I was considering swapping all of them and only returning back for the branches with unacceptable nuisance trips. So to get an idea of the cost I looked up the price of breakers at my local big-box store. The price of normal breakers for my box brand were about $7USD. The AFCI for my box brand were about $70USD. That's a full magnitude of order. If (for nice round numbers) I were to replace 10 of them I'd be looking at $700 in material cost alone to replace about $70 worth of breakers as a DIY project. Probably much more to hire a professional (I'm a trained electronics tech, not an electrician).
In a new install, that's slightly mitigated by eliminating the need for GFCI receptacles.
Look up a 2 pole GFCI for a 50 amp stove circuit: You will be shocked at the cost.
@@guygrotke8059 Square D (QO) 250V 50A -AFCI- /GFCI Circuit Breaker _only_ $145 on Amazon at the time of this writing.
I wonder what the AFCI-combo version will cost; can't find one right now.
I have to laugh when any home owner laments the "expense" of upgrades that might not match their annual beer budget. Further, these are pretty fundamental upgrades, and at least would help avoid a destructive fire, which in turn might trigger an insurance investigation - and if flagrant violations or neglectful maintenance by the owner was demonstrated, your claim might be denied. Heck, a total revamping of a service panel might even get you an insurance rate reduction.
A man often credited with advancing the idea of electricity is often credited, but the expression pre-dates him: "Penny wise and pound foolish."
You explain things so perfectly man. Mike Holt should take notes from you
But questions I got if you have a older home that don't have them like a 70 's home do I need update or only if I make a major remodel then have to do it and does apply for older Apts to
I replaced an old subpanel next to my main panel with a much bigger Siemens plug in neutral panel, and bought a collection of dual function breakers as well as a few GFCI and AFCI individual ones. I also moved some circuits from the main GE panel to the subpanel as the main panel was maxed out with half size breakers, all of which I removed and replaced the remaining circuits with DF breakers. What I have found is that none of my fridges or freezers (all relatively “quality” brands) like these GFCI breakers. Also my mitre saw cannot tolerate AFCI protection, but its ok with GFCI. So my question is “what, if anything, have appliance makers said or done about the compatibility of their products with these requirements?
Most all appliance techs will tell you to never install an appliance to a GFCI as explained in the installation manual….
Part of the issue with GFCIs is that unlike RCDs (name used in the reset of the world) that are rated with a type (AC, A, B, F) which determines the types of loads it is compatible with. 'AC' type are only really suitable with resistive or motor type loads (probably the type that most GFCIs are), 'A' type can operate with AC or Pulsed DC (rectified ) loads which is fine for most general electronics loads, 'F' type RCD's can work with loads with single phase frequency drives or VSDs.
It might be worthwhile doing some investigation into the type of GFCI you have and what is available to find something more appropriate.
As far as your circular saw tripping the arc fault there are probably 2 options, 1 is better quality arc fault detection the other is to check the brushes in your saw as that may be arcing more than necessary and being detected as a fault.
I agree dual function breakers for everything aside from the circuit the smokes are on.
So will ac on commercial build that are 208v 40a now need a gfci breaker. Or do this apply to residential dwellings
Maybe 10 years ago at an IAEI class I questioned the instructor if heat build up with up to 40 AFCI in only a 14.5" wide panel will cause problems. Said UL tested panels with up to 80 AFCI circuit breakers and these was no problem with heat. Hard to imagine that if you have 80 very crowded #12 copper wires on both sides of a narrow panel. ( due to longer breakers ) that heat would build up.
If you've sized things correctly, WHERE'S THE HEAT coming from???
@@JMoney-ne3to Heat is produced any time a lot of current carrying wires are ganged together plus these breakers produce some heat. The large hospital that I retired from we had to perform an IR scan with expensive FLIR cameras on the over 10,000 circuit breakers every year. GFCI bolt on 20 amp circuit breakers always ran 2 to 3 degrees hotter.
Love your books! Keep it up Ryan! Great info. What else is new?
More videos to come!
Could that GFCI or RCBO requirement apply on industry socket (Single phase-230V and 3- Phase 400V) or only on receptacle outlet
At this point, for dwelling units, it would be more straightforward to list the locations where GFCI is NOT required. I can think of a few, but they require AFCI, so at that point from a cost perspective, you might as well make all 120 and 240V circuits protected with combination AFCI / GFCI breakers.
So have the building final inspection should be done before the equipment is installed
it's easy to talk about all these requirements like it's no big deal and i understand it all comes down to safety
And while i agree with about 98% of the codes some go overboard and are completely unnecessary and juzt don't make sense plus when your a contractor all the constant calls due to nuisance tripping of all these gfci/afci breakers is a serious annoyance, nobody wants to be spending hours every week just driving around resetting breakers because it's amazing how many home owners don't know how to reset these .
Can a GFCI breaker flip due to excess heat cause by our current excessive 105 outside temperatures making the breaker box hotter than usual????
How about 3 phase branch circuits in a dwelling unit? In my area high leg and 120/208 residential services are not uncommon, which means you have both a leg over 150v to ground and the capability for multi phase branch circuits. If, in a house with 3 phase, you ran a 3 phase circuit to the stove, installed a NEMA 18-50 if a wye service, or splice box if delta, and then put a cord on the stove with only single phase hooked up to a 18-50 plug or hardwired to the splice box with a single phase whip, would that really bypass the requirement for GFCI protection on that circuit? Same with cooktops, ovens, etc. If 3 phase was ran to the electrical box, and only single phase went out to the appliance, would that bypass the GFCI requirement?
In your interpretation, does a readily accessible disconnect for a future AC in a dwelling require GFCI since you don’t consider it the outlet?
Does the outlet not exist if the AC is not installed?
I just need to extend a 20A branch circuit from one outbuilding to another (via new underground line) for the sake of adding some outlets in that second building.
No water or wet conditions in either building. I'll probably make sure the first outlet in the first outbuilding is an AF/GFCI outlet, I'll use 12-gauge wiring (because of the 20A breaker), I'll probably use 20A outlets in the second outbuilding.
I think I'm all set for that, with a little more reading up on whether I need the AFCI feature at all. Now I just need to figure out the whole grounding thing (find out how the existing branch circuit is grounded and if I need additional grounding measures on the extension or just extend the existing ground wire through the new outlets).
Depending on distance, make sure your 12 AWG wire won't add too much voltage drop, too.
@@jovetj thank you. I was able to extend the two existing circuits and get everything hooked up and tested by an electrician who confirmed that the outlets at the ends of the circuits were drawing/providing 120v.
So is the kitchen table required to have a Receptacle? you can prepare food on it? where does it end?
I definitely support the idea of the bath fan being a receptacle I've seen in apartments and what not indoor extension cords plugged into that fan outlet with the fan unplugged. If it were a nonstandard plug that would fix the issue for me but as is someone can actually pull down the grill and plug a lamp into the thing. Gets complicated with fan lights combos though cause your don't want the light going off with a GFCI trip.
Hi,
I am trying to determine the maximum allowable ampacity of class 4 conductor. I read section N726.144 and it says it has to comply with 300.15. I have not found any information on 300.15. I have UL 1400-2 documents; it doesn't say much about the maximum allowable current on the UL document.
can I use section 310.15 article this product?
Are swamp coolers required to be GFCI protected?
Nice video... Would you do a video on tap rules..
I already did. Search "Ryan Jackson feeder taps."
@13:10 countertop receptacle spacing is off. 2' from the sink requires a receptacle. Am I wrong? Is that a peninsula or somthing?
Does an IP66/68/69 rated receptacle (Leviton Rhino Hide Receptacle) also meet code for an outdoor weather resistant (WR) receptacle?
I've been putting all GFCI receptacles in my own homes since the 90s. I used to use GFCI outlets because they are cheaper. Now I only use AFCI/GFCI breakers in my own homes. It's easier to go to one location to check and reset a circuit then to search behind beds or furniture for the first outlet on a circuit. It will also force you to address some existing wiring problems, if any. Usually its a neutral shared on more than one circuit. In that case the white neutral wire is often brown or even black from overheating.
Don't you run out of positions on the neutral bar?
@@JohnQPublic345 It doesn't take any more spaces on the neutral bar. The circuit neutral goes to the breaker instead of neutral bar. Then the white wire from the breaker goes to the neutral bar. If you use a newer panel with a plug on neutral it reduces the number of wires going to the neutral bar.
@@Doug-gp2qw oh yeah. I wasn't thinking
read 210.8(B)(4) again. it says, ".....provisions for FOOD SERVING, beverage serving, or cooking." Yes, that was a food serving area. Doesn't state whether it's self serving or staff serving. GFCI required.
Where can i read more on these electrical related deaths that you mentioned
To confirm something for us homeowners/DIY who are allowed to self-repair or upgrade, here is a question: My house was built in 2005 (and I fact checked back then it was built under NEC 2005 adoption). As of right now THIS MONTH (Feb 2023) my county still adopts the NEC 2020 code. Let's say adoption doesn't change over yet and I want to update/replace some receptacles this weekend. Which NEC year should I abide by? 2005, 2020, or 2023? I am sometimes confused if the home is "grandfathered" in with the NEC it was built under or I should use the currently adopted one.
Of course as a savvy owner, I will always prefer to follow codes up to or beyond those required, but I am just curious the bare minimum. Again, this is for EXISTING work, not net-new. Thanks!
The scope the of the code is the installation of conductors and equipment. That means what you install must comply with the code that is adopted when you install it.
In your 210.8(B) example with the icemaker, I would argue conservatively that the stainless(conductive) sink table and the icemaker is the relevant measurement. Perhaps even the stainless(conductive) cabinet it sits on. (3 inches?)
Another question: these changes seem to include EVSE equipment, which often include GFCI internally. True?
Great video, thanks!
While on stainless steel or any other kitchen sink made from metal a continuing education class instructor/inspector said that all kitchen sink that have Pvc drain, PEX water supply and no garbage disposal must be have sink grounded. Been years since I saw a house without a garbage disposal but a guy that I did work for and owns over a dozen old rental houses a lastly a remove the garbage disposals because of too many problems.
Here is the thing and I agree with many we will end up with a panel with all dual function breakers and that is good in that longer term these will result in a safer installation. But here is the thing especially AFCIs in detecting serial and parallel arc requires both circuit design and algorithms to determine that transients and waveform signals are an arc event. Unfortunately with many non-linear loads with power factors less than one will generate transient waveforms that could trip AFCIs. The likelihood of these tripping in a panel in my view is slightly higher as a panel is a hub for multiple circuits feeding in one place and creates more opportunities for arc like noise to propagate as those circuits could feed multiple non-linear loads. I prefer where possible to fit dual AFCI/GFCI receptacles near key loads which are accessible. That way I can re-set quickly if AFCI trips. Microwaves and coffee machines are particularly good at creating arc like signal waveforms. My microwave does trip once every 3-months. Is it a nuisance?Yes it is but with such infrequent trips I can live with it if the result is a safer installation. That being said manufacturers of devices including white goods should be investing more in circuit design and more comprehensive signal and power quality testing to suppress generation of noisy transients. The AFCI devices are improving but it’s unlikely that they could ever filter out the vast number of transients generated by non-linear load devices. When I upgrade my panels in next few years it will be interesting to see how selective coordination issues with multiple dual function devices work together on a circuit. If an AFCI trips at device location would we get double trips one at source and one at the panel adding to inconvenience.? This is where selective coordination will be important. And certainly I want to be able to see trip curves for AFCI devices or at least some other current characteristic curves that allow selective coordination thereby avoiding double tripping. But this then starts to get into a different realm of electrical engineering design and which is most often done in installations where cost of interruption is very high ( ie industrial and commercial settings).
I used to have a brilliant Square D sales engineer sit at my table at IAEI classes. They used him for a guinea pig years ago. They had him install Square D AFCI breakers for every 120 volt circuit. He told me that no matter where he plugged in the vacuum cleaner it would trip the AFCI'S. Even after purchasing a new vacuum cleaner they still tripped. Excellent Square D engineers tweaked the AFCI breakers where the vacuum cleaner no longer tripped the AFCI circuit breakers. If they prevent fires & save lives we'll worth the money. Think the NEC should mandate them on flimsy office furniture built in power plug in receptacles. Some are well made and some are absolute garbage. Might want to add arc fault protection for office desks. Get scared when I look under some desk and they have a power strip feeding not only their desk but a second power strip plugged in to first strip to supply power in ajoining desk. Of course they all have computers, printers, some a fax machine and a coffee cup warmer, pencil sharpener, calculators etc.
@@JohnThomas-lq5qp I want numbers. I want to see the figures that show that AFCIs have made a substantial difference in the last 20+ years. It's the results that matter, not hopes and wishes.
At the IAEI 8 yearly classes one very intelligent well respected inspector would maybe once every few years go in a rant and say a lot of changes in the NEC are drive by lawyers.
@@jovetj take a look at the work of the NFPA, CPSC and US Fire administration on AFCIs. Many used to say the same thing about GFCIs/RCDs. Not saying there are no false trips but the idea behind it is ultimately about saving lives and yes some manufacturers maybe overselling the quality of their AFCIs and how they operate. What about surge protection or power quality not really life issues but equipment protection and efficiency issues also play a role and are starting to be important in the mind of many types of customers. Is that an industry oversell? You can make your own mind up.
@@mathman0101 I have already stated the similarities in other comments on this video. I would love to look at the numbers provided by the NFPA, etc., or studies by third parties. I cannot find them.
So does the 30amp 240v dryer receptacle need GFCI in residential or not?
Yes.
Depending on which state, city, or county you're in all this may or may not apply. If the jurisdiction chooses not to enforce the all of the NEC code AND SOME DO NOT, then it doesn't matter
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@@panelpal111 Thats just the way it is.....if the local municipality chooses NOT to adopt any part of the NEC it is NOT enforced.....
RV recpticals for most cases are a problem if GFCI protected as most older RV's have neutral and ground bonded due to having a generator. Does this requirement mean the RV has to be rewired with a unbonded neutral?
it means stop reading the codes and wire it why people have for 100 years no one died yet lol
To get around the aquarium issue I just use a #8 lug with a 1/4 20 bolt, lock washer, nut and #8 solid copper. The hard part is drilling the hole in the fish.
I can only imagine, since they move around a lot and are slippery from being wet.
Skip the drill, and just use a hammer next time.
What if equipment changes. Who is responsible if a fatality occurs after install due to new/rearranging of equipment??
ryan, does code prohibit just throwing everything (short of life safety stuff like required egress lighting, sump pump, etc) behind a gfci main breaker?
No.
Any idea how to wire commercial UPS units and comply with GFCI requirements? The common mode filters don't play nice and having power turned off for an item you are trying to keep on does not work well.
How's about when surge protection equipment gets old and leaks current to the ground wire?
More having to replace surge protectors.
Guessing as with all other changes it primarily applies to new construction or remodels, but you mentioned in an example on a multi family dwelling where an AC unit needed to be replaced then the circuit would need to be upgraded to GFCI protection. Does that apply to all appliances? If say, for example, an over-the-range microwave has to be replaced, do you have to upgrade so the outlet is GFCI protected? It's not really a remodel, but it is in a loose definition a built in appliance.
No.
Microwaves Are cord and plug. Do you have to upgrade a range or dryer outlet to 4 prong when you buy a new dryer or range?
I'd like to know the thinking behind requiring gfci protection for ranges clothes dryers ,ac units, and garage door openers when u have them connected to a properly sized grounding comductor ? I've ask this before but never received an answer .
Someone died.
@@jovetj yep one stupied guy put hes hand in live wire and everyone else hads to change to retired proof it
Yes if the person is "cutting" it's technically preparation. Any short order cooking, such as a pasta/ action station - food that is made to order like an omelette. Even rolling sushi counts
These code writers think of everything, even sushi rolling
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ALL receps in the kitchen now includes the fridge! That's gonna result in people mad about spoiled food.
Erik, it’s easy to add an alarm to the refrigerator gfci so that you can hear when the refrigerator looses power. I’ve done that and I can even get an alert on my phone when there is an issue. It cost me $4 to do this.
@@neilbrookins8428 Can you tell me more about this phone notification thing?
@@miles9922 there are multiple parts to the solution I’ve implemented. I don’t want to advertise a specific brand here so I’ll just say I used a WiFi Smart Plug with Energy Monitoring which is compatible with a free program called “home assistant”. Then, inside home assistant I created what’s called an automation. That has a trigger that looks for a specific behavior, in this case the trigger is watts below a specific threshold for a specific time period. Once that trigger criteria is satisfied, there is an action run. The action here is sending an alert to my phone. This can either be via the home assistant app on the phone or a different app called pushover.
The same steps can also alert me to a door left open. When a door is open the refrigerator keeps running and never shuts off. So my automation in home assistant has a trigger that looks for watts above a threshold for a specific time duration. When this criteria is met it runs an action that sends an alert to my phone via notification feature in either home assistant app or using pushover.
@@neilbrookins8428 Okay, a nifty setup for sure. I went with an alarmed GFCI for my sump, but doesn't help much if I'm out of the house... Might do something similar. Thanks!
@12.52 am i crazy or is there no receptacles within 24" of sink?
I want to see data for the last 20 years of how AFCI protection has lowered the incidence of electrical house fires. I cannot find this data anywhere.
me to if theres proof they work and only kick if theres real problem id upgrade tomorrow with out it im keeping my old normal brakers
What is the code for bathroom Heat/Vent/Light? How many circuits needed and does it have to be AFCI/GFCI protected?
See 210.11 and 210.12.