Im an electrician from Maryland,and I love learning new codes,it keeps me sharp at work.A lot of my co-workers could care less,I take it home with me.I enjoy being the most informed electrician on any job,thanks again
Thank you. Well made video. Just finished a kitchen remodel and the peninsula outlet was a big question. Wife didn’t want to ruin the aesthetics on the end cabinet. I wanted it for the purpose of charging computers and cellphones. I get what you’re saying about heating devices getting dragged off the counter, but to refuse to install a permitable outlet because it might be used improperly seems a little extreme. I do appreciate your attention to safety. My wife appreciates the clean end cabinet.
From what I understand, outlets were added to kitchen islands because people were putting appliances like slow cookers on them and would string the cord across the aisle to the island...now people are saying they have to go for much the same reason.
A very good explanation of a contentious issue. I agree with your perspective of where liability falls in the event of a potentially litigious incident. As contractors we bear responsibility not only for code compliance, owner safety and convenience, but also any liability that may arise from our performance. As a side note, I installed a receptacle in the end of my kitchen peninsula during construction in 2005. I caught my cellphone holster in the attachment cord for an iron and pulled the iron off the countertop, resulting in a broken iron, a gouged cabinet panel, and a chipped tile. Let us heed the explanation of this code reference by Mr. Jackson.
Been licensed since 95 in Massachusetts, here's the thing I'm trying to understand. When I started we were always told we never wire for the future. We wire for today and they can't make us do what ifs scenarios. In fact, at one point in time they were making us put fan boxes in if there was an area greater than 2 ft circumference, what I recall a gentleman wrote a beautiful letter explaining the concept we're wiring for today. Not for tomorrows What ifs and how they legally couldn't make us And they removed that requirement, but it all came back. Something occurred. I'm trying to understand it. They made it possible to dictate all the possibilities in the future we must now be prepared for. Is it possible you can explain in a video, on how they're able to structure the code this way.
I just purchased a new build home and I was so mad that there was no out let on the island, and it is a big island. I had one in my previous home that I sold and it was so useful. I used it for my kitchen aid, juicers and etc. Thanks for explaining, I don't like this change, but it is what it is.
We are modifying our kitchen and adding a kitchen island. We are in a state that still uses 2020. 1. Can we use NEC 2023 as that makes more sense to us? 2. Do we need an official inspection before and after the cabinet/island installation? 3. Moreover, how will a potential future buyer's inspection know when exactly the kitchen was updated? Assuming by then our state should be on the 2023 NEC anyway.
I'm in a similar situation, but in a state that still uses 2017, but is currently in the process of moving over to 2023(haven't moved over fully yet though), going by 2017 code means we'd have to sacrifice a drawer and it's front to make room or cut a hole in our waterfall countertop. My backup plan is to sacrifice the drawer if they require it, then once it's all inspected I'll rewire it to a box inside the cabinet(2023 code standards) and install the drawer.
Unfortunately plenty of states don't use the latest code because it hasn't been adopted by the legislative bodies. Some states, such as California are one code cycle behind the latest code. This gives them 3 years to adopt the latest code. Unfortunately the latest code may contain changes that are beneficial to the contractor and public but cannot be implemented because that year code book hasn't been adopted.
If receptacles are not required on islands I'm confused on why you said if this is a required receptacle this is a violation? 13:10 in the video? Can u give me a little clarification please and thank you.
in minute 5 off the video peninsula still required receptacle on living room side ? right ? if the island back side is in part off living room still required receptacle for wall space rule lower below?
Our builder just began to follow the new code. Not happy about $400 for each Hubbell pop-up installed through a quartz top island. However, after watching your video, I decided to have them installed.
I'm in a bind here. Are there any outlets for islands which are sturdy, elegant, and that don't pop up? I hate the way they look, and believe they are just one more thing which will easily break in a busy kitchen. Obviously, an outlet in a cabinet is below the counter top. What if I put the outlet below the counter behind a small door (say 4x8 inches). Does that count as a tiny "cabinet"??? Might my code officer allow that?
That was a really good explanation. I was confused as to the whole optional, required, not required debokle. Im guess in the next code book it will require that the “sleeve” optional future island outlet be made accessible at the island. Only because if say it mounted down stairs under the island i could be missed/buried during basement finish. Oh the web we weave keeping people safe.
Here's another use case to consider for allowing below countertop receptacles in an island: a microwave receptacle in an open cubby below the island's countertop. I have that setup today in my kitchen (installed many years ago). The receptacle is located at the bottom of the cubby's rear wall and although it wasn't installed to serve the countertop (and, therefore, it presumably complies with the new code), the 36 inch cord, unmodified, on my air fryer will just reach it IF I place the air fryer right at the edge of the countertop. Not that I would do such a dangerous thing because I prefer to use the receptacle installed on the side wall of the island. That's the one we also used to use for plugging in a vacuum before we went cordless. LOL Good video and understandable, mostly, for this homeowner. Thanks!
Thank you so much! I've been researching how to get receptacles to an island and they were all putting them under the counter, on the sides(of course most of these videos were up to a few years old). Seeing this, I think I'm just going to go with my original plan of not adding power there. I have a grandchild that stays with me, and I think that would just be too much of a worry. Thanks again.
I work in South Florida on 20-30 million dollar homes on a daily basis and some of the stuff you have to put outlets in with these countertops and these kitchen islands is getting ridiculous not to mention having to work with the cabinet guys themselves is almost impossible to get your stuff landed where it needs to go it's good to know that it's not a requirement now All you have to do is run a sleeve out there but nowadays everybody wants power so you know you got to get them the expensive pop-up outlets that they want underneath the marble countertop it's crazy. Not to mention I'm also pulling separate circuits for whatever ice maker maybe a little cooler disposal dishwasher all that stuff. Thanks for helping me understand between what's required by the code and what you can just do that was pretty cool and it's wild that I'm at this point in my career I find stuff like this fascinating and can't wait to take the test
All great points same goes for up here. The thing to remember though is make sure your state is following the 2023 code. A lot of states are behind. Stay safe and take care.
About to remodel our kitchen. Was going to put an undertop outlet on new island...now you got me thinking more that a pop up would be much better. Thanks.
Our home builder didn’t install island receptacles. So if I understand correctly, they still have to provide an island conduit as a provision should I want one at a later time?? Is that correct????
You do a great job covering grey areas in the code. I would love to hear your thoughts on the Bocci 22 system receptacles being installed in Backsplashes. I read a lot of opinions about how they are or aren't a code violation because of buried junction boxes. Hope this is an idea for another great video in the future.
Great video. I always search your video library when I need information. If you have not made a video on the particular subject, I will search elsewhere; -But I can usually find it somewhere in your library. I even emailed you once, and you responded. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. (subscriber) Jim, from, Southern California.
I have receptacles on the side of my island, but they are never used for hot containers. Use them all the time for chargers and food mixers. I built my house under NEC 70 2017 and I'm an electrical inspector.
Thanks for the info! Planning on (as owner) adding an outlet at the end of a peninsula for Laptop/iPad charging while sitting on far side (opposite side to the kitchen area, with bar stools). I never thought about possibility scalding burns from cookware (& we have toddler grandchildren!) We will never use it for that, and will add a small sign stating “Not for Cookware!). BTW, having to run the charging cord across to the nearest wall outlet (~6 ft) also presents a cord trip hazard. Granite countertop supported by metal plate pretty much rules out a pop up outlet.
Looking at the photo of the crockpot on the end of the penninsula with the below countertop recepticle... This can be made safe. I'm imagening something like a towel bar mounted on top of the end of the counter. If the cord runs under it theres no way to pull an appliance off. Even if the cord hangs over the top of the bar, it would be a substantial curb.
Thank you Ryan. Glad I found your channel. I am not an electrician but can appreciate the evolution of the NEC. I was interested in how 2 duplex receptacles were installed in a new kitchen island, on the cabinet sides, per code. If I had to do it again I would install the pop up receptacles in the countertop, even if more costly. It does bother me when I see the slow cooker on the island with the cord draped over the countertop down to the receptacle. I think it is always better to plan for worst case scenarios. Like- we rarely have small children in the house, but there could be that occurrence and the possible accident caused by the portable appliance cord sticking out of the cabinet in a pathway.
So if you do install one of these "optional" outlets, you still have to install something for future required countertop installation? Must these two be on separate branch circuits? I agree with you on your interpretation of the code. I'm curious if we have any idea about what's coming up next (in 2026). Thanks.
So I am at that point now. We failed the final for # of recepticles per 2020 code. My question is this, if our state Adopted 2020 code as of Jan 1,2023 but the 2023 code eliminated the island recepticles due to safety, should this not overrule the 2020 code of # recepticle requirements?
I'm dealing with this too. Currently pushing back on the inspector because we're being asked to add outlets that are no longer in compliance as of the 2023 code.
This is incredibly informative, thank you. Especially for a DIY idiot like me, lol. The kind of island I want to build will have wheels so it can be rolled out of the way when unused. The one thing I was worried about with an impermanent island was having to wire it to make it more permanent. I don't have small children so there's no risk of pulling, but I don't want the island to be energized because, for our uses, it's not necessary. It'll be like a restaurant prep table, only more finished.
Thank you so much for the clarification you make it simple and clear. Really appreciate it. Wish everybody that explains the code was so clear. Thank you.
I like your thoroughness in illuminating why code is the way it is. I’m an apprentice starting late (25) and I’m curious where I should start. I plan on going to school through my employer, and that’s all well and good, but I don’t want to spend months not knowing if I’m doing the right thing. Is there a book/guide/pamphlet that explains the basics.
I agree but there is no way I am building one of those contraptions just to satisfy code. Personally I think they are unsightly and make it look like a ski lodge with kids getting drunk.
I visited a house with an under-counter power strip. This was in the area where the countertop extended about 12 inches past the counter, for possible use as a seating area. It was primarily being used as a place to plug in phone and tablet chargers. I’m not a fan of outlets with USB or USB-C power, as this technology is rapidly changing. Yes, pop-top outlets would be possible, but ugly and generally too few for all the gadgets we typically plug in to charge, leading to use of power strips on a countertop. Unfortunately, this would still allow a portable cooking appliance and it’s associated hazards. I’m not sure on what the best answer is.
Hi Ryan - In today's world, with houses going for over $500K in average, why not just put ground fault breakers on every circuit in a house and avoid all of the confusion?
Wonder if the old code was written to add the receptacle so to prevent home owners running extension cords to the island based on the injuries observed up till that time.
So is having a receptacle below the countertop on a island or peninsula a code violation or is it just not recommended due to the potential legal issues
Pop ups aren’t always an option because the cabinets do not allow the space for them. The drawers can consume just about all of the real estate in a cabinet. Now what?
You wind up losing drawer space. You have to significantly shorten the drawer and mount the pop-up toward the back (my choice) , narrowing the drawer, notching the drawer (like for around a trap in a bathroom lav) or eliminating the drawer altogether and mounting a false front (like in front of a cooktop or sink).
Welcome to the land of big brother. I am building a new house, and I know where my outlet is going. In the base cabinet. The insanity of the hoops to jump through and expense to have an unsightly plate on the countertop - I'll pass.
@@jaystusjh19 I’m just an electrician showing up after the fact . I’m not the homeowner or builder making those decisions. They sure do make it hard for us.
Man.. some of the disagreements and arguments I have dealt with over the last 3 years with customers, contractors, and inspectors on this issue and getting the proper amount of legal receptacles on islands is all for not. Trying to explain to customers/contractors the amount of receptacles needed at the island with the 2020 code was like talking to a brick wall and at times having to force expensive pop in installs to make them compliant was a chore which at times required me getting the inspector involved. Seems strange to over extend and then pull back so far. I'm willing to bet on 2026 they will require a pop in on the countertop if no backsplash exists and this is just the setup for it. But I can't say I disagree with the normal spot for these receptacles on the ends being dangerous. Kids running around an island and hitting an appliance cord is a scenario which isn't hard to imagine.
Man, I feel your pain, I've been a commercial industrial type of electrician for most of my time , then I spent the last 5 years doing high-end residential( I found it really rounded my knowledge) want back to commercial, My heart goes out to the residentials!
The impression I got is that the kids don't accidentally hit the cords.... They pull on them deliberately. No surprise if they ban the island side receptacles in future.
All comes down to paying attention to your kids. We've had Islands with end receptacles in all our homes and never had an issue. My girls are 27 and 24 now. They weren't allowed to play in the kitchen when we were cooking.
i always get a laugh or chuckle whenever i make a remark in class regarding something in your textbook, like "well i think the author was recommending this or that" esp with regards to the new big changes such as this one
Respectfully, I think the interpretation at 13:20 is incorrect. The code reads "210.52(C)(2) Island and Peninsular Countertops and Work Surfaces. Receptacle outlets, if installed to serve an island or peninsular countertop or work surface, shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(3).... 210.52(C)(3) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be located in one or more of the following: (1) On or above, but not more than 20 inches above, a countertop or work surface (2) In a countertop using receptacle outlet assemblies listed for use in countertops (3) In a work surface using receptacle outlet assemblies listed for use in work surfaces or listed for use in countertops" If you install an "optional" receptacle below the work surface/countertop, it serves the work surface or countertop, thus it is "installed to serve an island or peninsular countertop or work surface." Thus it "shall" (i.e. must) comply with 210.52(C)(3), which doesn't allow a receptacle below the countertop. Your argument seems to require that an "optional" receptacle does not serve the countertop, but of course it serves the countertop if installed directly below it. Maybe I'm missing something?
Well, that's the problem. If I install a receptacle under a sink for a disposer in an island, does that serve the countertop? I would say no. If I install one on the side of the cabinet but it's 12" above the floor, does that serve the countertop? I would say no. How about 13" above the floor? 14"? 15"? You see where I am going here. Unfortunately, the code is not perfectly clear and it does not (and must not) prohibit receptacles from being installed lower than the countertop. If we were in court, my proffessional opinion would be the one that I gave in the video.
Ryan I have 2 kitchen counter tops..I will wire a 20 amp circuit for these 2 counter tops..question is knowing I'm only putting 2 outlets..Am I required to split the 2 outlets up..or am I ok to put 2 outlets adjacent to each other or stagger or alternate one of each circuit..thks
I don’t have a 2023 copy (yet) so I don’t have the literature in front of me, but say you have an island that has a sink and it’s a step up island that has a higher portion of bar on the opposite side from the sink, thereby giving you a “backsplash” area on either side of the sink. Because it’s an island is the code saying that a receptacle is not required for those areas? I understand your “suggestion” that you could add receptacles as “additional” receptacles that aren’t required (and I would probably install them since the HO would use that space as working surface), I’m just wanting clarification for myself. Thanks for your videos!
@@simplewick350 correct. Just finished kitchen with outlets built under the cabinets. They have to meet the code. Reason is you have a 2ft appliance cord attached to kitchen appliances. It’s got to be able to sit on countertop. You go higher the appliance won’t be able to stay flat
This is interesting to me. I design industrial panels...I have nothing to do with residential. But, I remember that past code change(2020) that 'required' such outlets. Why? Because I listen to you and Mike Holt videos(some music too) while I'm doing CAD or calcs or whatever. Geeky me. I personally have gotten my foot engaged with a crock pot cord plugged into an under-counter receptacle (breakfast bar kind of thing). No one got burned or hurt but there was a lot of hot food on the floor and I looked like a fool. I thought(Engineers are supposed to think) geesh, what if a kid did that? I'm glad to see the change...almost from 'shall' to 'shall not' in the code. Not quite but close. The new language sounds like a lawyer's advice of language for backing out of a previous gaff in the code. No doubt lawyers review the code. It does make me wonder if the NFPA gets sued from time to time on such things.
We had a very gifted intelligent electrical inspector at IAEI meetings that brought up that he thought some of the fine print in the NEC were due to lawyers meddling in. Granted the pop up outlets cost more but that's what I would install if I had a kitchen island. If Kitchen is large enough for an island then the NEC should require them to be on their own 20 amp AFCI breaker that does not count against the minimum two required 20 amp counter top kitchen circuits.
there's warnings on trash bags so we are only protecting the stupid. Thank you for the explanation. As for me and my house currently being built there will be outlets under the counter top.
@@RobbieTullos Basically, yes. A receptacle installed for the purpose of serving the countertop is a violation. A receptacle installed for other purposes is not.
a big question that I have for you is what would you consider a wet or damp location if you're running UF cable and you just run the wire out there do you need to sleeve it because is that technically a wet or damp location and then also it's in the slab is the UF wire should be rated for that or no?
Wow, I know about the counter top change but didn’t know you would still be able to install it below countertop still.. as a non required receptacle… I would just avoid it to cause confusion and worry about the the home owner using that receptacle for an appliance etc
My city in California is going off the old code of 2020 in 2025 and requiring me to have receptacles in my island. Should I fight them on this? Are they allowed to go by old code just because that’s what they chose?
Building a new house w kitchen island. Understand that island receptacles are not required. But as an optional receptacle, can I put receptacles on the island cabinet below the island countertop?
13:40 once you have the pop up recep there youre probably not going to use the one on the side of the cabinet and the client is not going to pay extra to have both installed so this is kind of a moot point.
I have a 15-inch countertop with a pocket door behind it, making it difficult if not impossible to put a receptacle in the wall. (Only 1-1/4" clearance). So my only option is a pop-up for that space? That cabinet is the end of the run.
What about the knee wall, does not need a receptacle as part of the living room 12 foot general receptacles to be installed on that knee wall of the peninsula?
No way I would specify one either, but now I feel bad about the ones we installed in the past. However I question the logic we just went through with you. Once you install one at an island, you are referred to the locations as per "required" outlets. So you can read the code to say it shall be installed only in these specific locations.
Hello there. Actually I like what you're saying and I actually think this is a good code change. I am guilty of installing receptacles below countertops on kitchen islands but only because I work in South Carolina and occasionally North Carolina which is just now adopting the 2020 NEC. I also like the new 2023 code requirement about requiring provisions for a future receptacle outlet, while it isn't perfect or might not be ideal I think it's a good compromise. I plan to start my own electrical business in the next couple to 5 yrs depending on the economy, and I will definitely be promoting listed countertop pop up receptacles to my perspective clients.
I understand outlets are no longer required on islands. But if you opt to do it, does anybody know if there are code requirements as to where on the island surface the outlets need to be installed? Or about the quantity? Distance from the edge, distance from a sink, located every 4-ft, etc? I'm assuming the quantity is still the same (1 outlet for the first 9 sq ft, and 1 additional outlet for each additional 18 sq ft). What if the pop-up has 8 outlets on it (2 plug-ins on each of 4 sides), will that satisfy some of the required amounts? I'm about to start a major kitchen remodel, and my island will be 4ft x 10 ft. It will contain my dishwasher, sink, and microwave. Thank you for any advice you can offer!
They are no longer required so therefore there is no longer a code for how many or spacing. You can decide at this point how many and where you want them.
I had one installed to comply with 2020 (NJ) and i am going remove it after the inspection. It is a super easy safety hazard for those homes with little kids. Also, i am a 20+ year home owner. I lived in so many different homes and i never had to plug an appliance to an island receptacle. They are maybe good for vacuum cleaners and that's it....
If everything we do had to be looked at from that perspective we wouldn’t be able to do ANYTHING because no matter what you do, someone will find a way of doing something stupid with it and claim it’s your fault. And as far as the inspector goes, you give them way too much credit for always trying to do the right thing. Yes there are lots of great inspectors out there but there are also a whole lot of egotistical know it alls too. In my town of about 35,000 people up until about 2 years ago we had a one man building department issuing and inspecting for all trades in every type of construction, now we’re all the way up to a two man department. They require stuff that doesn’t exist in the code while ignoring many very important items that are a big deal in most municipalities. I’m a retired master electrician and still keep my license from Michigan because Tennessee doesn’t even have a master classification, yet he won’t even issue me a permit to work in my own house because he won’t issue permits to homeowners. So I just do like everyone else and don’t get permits for anything.
Sounds like you have a bonafide idiot for code enforcement. I'd take that up with city council (unless of course his brother-in-law is the council president...LOL)
I'm not a lawyer I'm not an electrician. Given that, because a receptacle is available does not mean it is required to use. Best practice for convenience of homeowners.. is the homeowner taking the best course of action for their safety of their loved ones? What if that sand customer use the receptacle above the counter and let the court dangle for that toddler over the counter... Is the electrician still responsible?
There’s a difference between best practice for homeowners and best practice for electricians. There’s no good reason for an electrician to install a receptacle below the surface, so don’t do it.
@@AllTrac7200 I love to plug my kitchenaid or a juicer and use the island space. If not where do I put them, now I have to put a an extension cord to the island which is more dangerous letting people trip, hmm.
I'm still confused. At first you say that the new 2023 code now does not require any outlets in a kitchen island or peninsula, they are optional. Then later on, you state that an outlet can in fact be located below the countertop level if it is not a required outlet, rather, an optional one. That would make any outlet on the island or peninsula fine to install below counter top level as they are all, according to what you said, optional. Everywhere else I am reading they are interpreting the code to say that even "optional" outlets must be above counter top level since they all are optional in that location.
I know this is off topic, but props about mentioning the burn issue. It can't be emphasized enough that all you need to do is turn the handles so they can't be grabbed or bumped. Hot appliances should be pushed back as far as possible from the edge. First time parents often forget this because they are so sleep-deprived, and trying to figure out the whole parenting thing, so it's especially dangerous for the little ones once they start walking.
Im an electrician from Maryland,and I love learning new codes,it keeps me sharp at work.A lot of my co-workers could care less,I take it home with me.I enjoy being the most informed electrician on any job,thanks again
One day you'll get a girlfriend and all that will change
@@hemetelectricalservices I want to party with this guy, lol
Thanks for that clarification, must admit that I had misread that change myself.
Stay safe and keep on setting the record straight for us.
Thank you. Well made video. Just finished a kitchen remodel and the peninsula outlet was a big question. Wife didn’t want to ruin the aesthetics on the end cabinet. I wanted it for the purpose of charging computers and cellphones. I get what you’re saying about heating devices getting dragged off the counter, but to refuse to install a permitable outlet because it might be used improperly seems a little extreme. I do appreciate your attention to safety. My wife appreciates the clean end cabinet.
From what I understand, outlets were added to kitchen islands because people were putting appliances like slow cookers on them and would string the cord across the aisle to the island...now people are saying they have to go for much the same reason.
Ryan, this is by far my favorite electrical channel in all of youtube, and I follow many. Thank you so much
A very good explanation of a contentious issue. I agree with your perspective of where liability falls in the event of a potentially litigious incident.
As contractors we bear responsibility not only for code compliance, owner safety and convenience, but also any liability that may arise from our performance.
As a side note, I installed a receptacle in the end of my kitchen peninsula during construction in 2005. I caught my cellphone holster in the attachment cord for an iron and pulled the iron off the countertop, resulting in a broken iron, a gouged cabinet panel, and a chipped tile.
Let us heed the explanation of this code reference by Mr. Jackson.
Been licensed since 95 in Massachusetts, here's the thing I'm trying to understand. When I started we were always told we never wire for the future. We wire for today and they can't make us do what ifs scenarios.
In fact, at one point in time they were making us put fan boxes in if there was an area greater than 2 ft circumference, what I recall a gentleman wrote a beautiful letter explaining the concept we're wiring for today. Not for tomorrows What ifs and how they legally couldn't make us And they removed that requirement, but it all came back. Something occurred. I'm trying to understand it. They made it possible to dictate all the possibilities in the future we must now be prepared for.
Is it possible you can explain in a video, on how they're able to structure the code this way.
Great point.
I just purchased a new build home and I was so mad that there was no out let on the island, and it is a big island. I had one in my previous home that I sold and it was so useful. I used it for my kitchen aid, juicers and etc. Thanks for explaining, I don't like this change, but it is what it is.
Welcome back Ryan. Always good to see you posting
We are modifying our kitchen and adding a kitchen island. We are in a state that still uses 2020.
1. Can we use NEC 2023 as that makes more sense to us?
2. Do we need an official inspection before and after the cabinet/island installation?
3. Moreover, how will a potential future buyer's inspection know when exactly the kitchen was updated? Assuming by then our state should be on the 2023 NEC anyway.
I'm in a similar situation, but in a state that still uses 2017, but is currently in the process of moving over to 2023(haven't moved over fully yet though), going by 2017 code means we'd have to sacrifice a drawer and it's front to make room or cut a hole in our waterfall countertop. My backup plan is to sacrifice the drawer if they require it, then once it's all inspected I'll rewire it to a box inside the cabinet(2023 code standards) and install the drawer.
Unfortunately plenty of states don't use the latest code because it hasn't been adopted by the legislative bodies. Some states, such as California are one code cycle behind the latest code. This gives them 3 years to adopt the latest code. Unfortunately the latest code may contain changes that are beneficial to the contractor and public but cannot be implemented because that year code book hasn't been adopted.
If receptacles are not required on islands I'm confused on why you said if this is a required receptacle this is a violation? 13:10 in the video? Can u give me a little clarification please and thank you.
Glad i watched this video. No outlet at island in our new house.
Thank you Ryan for your time and expertise on this matter i appreciate your advise.
Please add an url of those receptacles that you recommend
in minute 5 off the video peninsula still required receptacle on living room side ? right ? if the island back side is in part off living room still required receptacle for wall space rule lower below?
Thanks Ryan glad to see a new video up
Our builder just began to follow the new code. Not happy about $400 for each Hubbell pop-up installed through a quartz top island. However, after watching your video, I decided to have them installed.
I'm in a bind here. Are there any outlets for islands which are sturdy, elegant, and that don't pop up? I hate the way they look, and believe they are just one more thing which will easily break in a busy kitchen.
Obviously, an outlet in a cabinet is below the counter top.
What if I put the outlet below the counter behind a small door (say 4x8 inches). Does that count as a tiny "cabinet"??? Might my code officer allow that?
That was a really good explanation. I was confused as to the whole optional, required, not required debokle. Im guess in the next code book it will require that the “sleeve” optional future island outlet be made accessible at the island. Only because if say it mounted down stairs under the island i could be missed/buried during basement finish. Oh the web we weave keeping people safe.
This is wild. My pops has the same name and runs a commercial HVAC department. Great video!
Here's another use case to consider for allowing below countertop receptacles in an island: a microwave receptacle in an open cubby below the island's countertop. I have that setup today in my kitchen (installed many years ago). The receptacle is located at the bottom of the cubby's rear wall and although it wasn't installed to serve the countertop (and, therefore, it presumably complies with the new code), the 36 inch cord, unmodified, on my air fryer will just reach it IF I place the air fryer right at the edge of the countertop. Not that I would do such a dangerous thing because I prefer to use the receptacle installed on the side wall of the island. That's the one we also used to use for plugging in a vacuum before we went cordless. LOL Good video and understandable, mostly, for this homeowner. Thanks!
Thank you so much! I've been researching how to get receptacles to an island and they were all putting them under the counter, on the sides(of course most of these videos were up to a few years old). Seeing this, I think I'm just going to go with my original plan of not adding power there. I have a grandchild that stays with me, and I think that would just be too much of a worry. Thanks again.
I work in South Florida on 20-30 million dollar homes on a daily basis and some of the stuff you have to put outlets in with these countertops and these kitchen islands is getting ridiculous not to mention having to work with the cabinet guys themselves is almost impossible to get your stuff landed where it needs to go it's good to know that it's not a requirement now All you have to do is run a sleeve out there but nowadays everybody wants power so you know you got to get them the expensive pop-up outlets that they want underneath the marble countertop it's crazy. Not to mention I'm also pulling separate circuits for whatever ice maker maybe a little cooler disposal dishwasher all that stuff. Thanks for helping me understand between what's required by the code and what you can just do that was pretty cool and it's wild that I'm at this point in my career I find stuff like this fascinating and can't wait to take the test
All great points same goes for up here. The thing to remember though is make sure your state is following the 2023 code. A lot of states are behind. Stay safe and take care.
So glad i found your channel. I'm eating the code up! Thank you so much Ryan
About to remodel our kitchen. Was going to put an undertop outlet on new island...now you got me thinking more that a pop up would be much better. Thanks.
Harder to do a pop-up with a counter top. There's no real point to doing so other than "being cool" but awfully complicated!
Our home builder didn’t install island receptacles. So if I understand correctly, they still have to provide an island conduit as a provision should I want one at a later time?? Is that correct????
You do a great job covering grey areas in the code. I would love to hear your thoughts on the Bocci 22 system receptacles being installed in Backsplashes. I read a lot of opinions about how they are or aren't a code violation because of buried junction boxes. Hope this is an idea for another great video in the future.
Excellent and timely information - I'm about to remodel my kitchen island and kitchen and wanted to do something different with the outlets.
Great video. I always search your video library when I need information. If you have not made a video on the particular subject, I will search elsewhere; -But I can usually find it somewhere in your library. I even emailed you once, and you responded. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. (subscriber) Jim, from, Southern California.
I have receptacles on the side of my island, but they are never used for hot containers. Use them all the time for chargers and food mixers. I built my house under NEC 70 2017 and I'm an electrical inspector.
Great! Insight and information. This has helped me tremendously. I want to install recepticals on my peninsula island.
Thanks for the info! Planning on (as owner) adding an outlet at the end of a peninsula for Laptop/iPad charging while sitting on far side (opposite side to the kitchen area, with bar stools). I never thought about possibility scalding burns from cookware (& we have toddler grandchildren!) We will never use it for that, and will add a small sign stating “Not for Cookware!). BTW, having to run the charging cord across to the nearest wall outlet (~6 ft) also presents a cord trip hazard. Granite countertop supported by metal plate pretty much rules out a pop up outlet.
Wish they'd made this change back when I did new construction. I hated doing all those island receptacles.
Thank you. I didn’t know of this change. About time this was adopted/ changed
Would an outlet plate cover over an outlet below counter height qualify as complying for future use and as not having one per the 2023 code?
Ha - great question. Likely a question for the inspector.
Excellent video, thanks Ryan. 👍🏼
Excellent explanation! Thank you
Thank you Ryan.
Very helpful videos. God bless you
Looking at the photo of the crockpot on the end of the penninsula with the below countertop recepticle...
This can be made safe. I'm imagening something like a towel bar mounted on top of the end of the counter. If the cord runs under it theres no way to pull an appliance off. Even if the cord hangs over the top of the bar, it would be a substantial curb.
Thank you Ryan. Glad I found your channel. I am not an electrician but can appreciate the evolution of the NEC. I was interested in how 2 duplex receptacles were installed in a new kitchen island, on the cabinet sides, per code. If I had to do it again I would install the pop up receptacles in the countertop, even if more costly. It does bother me when I see the slow cooker on the island with the cord draped over the countertop down to the receptacle. I think it is always better to plan for worst case scenarios. Like- we rarely have small children in the house, but there could be that occurrence and the possible accident caused by the portable appliance cord sticking out of the cabinet in a pathway.
So if you do install one of these "optional" outlets, you still have to install something for future required countertop installation? Must these two be on separate branch circuits? I agree with you on your interpretation of the code. I'm curious if we have any idea about what's coming up next (in 2026). Thanks.
Thank you for those insights.
So I am at that point now. We failed the final for # of recepticles per 2020 code. My question is this, if our state Adopted 2020 code as of Jan 1,2023 but the 2023 code eliminated the island recepticles due to safety, should this not overrule the 2020 code of # recepticle requirements?
I'm dealing with this too. Currently pushing back on the inspector because we're being asked to add outlets that are no longer in compliance as of the 2023 code.
Talk to your building official.
This is incredibly informative, thank you. Especially for a DIY idiot like me, lol. The kind of island I want to build will have wheels so it can be rolled out of the way when unused. The one thing I was worried about with an impermanent island was having to wire it to make it more permanent. I don't have small children so there's no risk of pulling, but I don't want the island to be energized because, for our uses, it's not necessary. It'll be like a restaurant prep table, only more finished.
That seems like it would not be affected. There is no way to provide permanent wiring to it.
Great discussion and commentary.
Thank you so much for the clarification you make it simple and clear. Really appreciate it. Wish everybody that explains the code was so clear. Thank you.
I like your thoroughness in illuminating why code is the way it is. I’m an apprentice starting late (25) and I’m curious where I should start. I plan on going to school through my employer, and that’s all well and good, but I don’t want to spend months not knowing if I’m doing the right thing. Is there a book/guide/pamphlet that explains the basics.
I suspect 2-level countertops for islands and peninsulas are going to become more popular just to have a minimal backsplash area for outlets.
I agree but there is no way I am building one of those contraptions just to satisfy code. Personally I think they are unsightly and make it look like a ski lodge with kids getting drunk.
I visited a house with an under-counter power strip. This was in the area where the countertop extended about 12 inches past the counter, for possible use as a seating area. It was primarily being used as a place to plug in phone and tablet chargers. I’m not a fan of outlets with USB or USB-C power, as this technology is rapidly changing. Yes, pop-top outlets would be possible, but ugly and generally too few for all the gadgets we typically plug in to charge, leading to use of power strips on a countertop. Unfortunately, this would still allow a portable cooking appliance and it’s associated hazards. I’m not sure on what the best answer is.
Hi Ryan - In today's world, with houses going for over $500K in average, why not just put ground fault breakers on every circuit in a house and avoid all of the confusion?
Money, people dont want to spend more than they have to.
Not really any confusion
Wonder if the old code was written to add the receptacle so to prevent home owners running extension cords to the island based on the injuries observed up till that time.
Thanks for the breakdown.
So is having a receptacle below the countertop on a island or peninsula a code violation or is it just not recommended due to the potential legal issues
That’s what I want to know
It's a code violation. This guy is just wrong.
Pop ups aren’t always an option because the cabinets do not allow the space for them. The drawers can consume just about all of the real estate in a cabinet. Now what?
Modify the drawers to allow for the space, or better yet plan to provide cabinets that will already accommodate.
You wind up losing drawer space. You have to significantly shorten the drawer and mount the pop-up toward the back (my choice) , narrowing the drawer, notching the drawer (like for around a trap in a bathroom lav) or eliminating the drawer altogether and mounting a false front (like in front of a cooktop or sink).
I just did surface pop ups and i just made a space in between the cabinets for them. Make the center cabinet a "21 deep and the others "24.
Welcome to the land of big brother. I am building a new house, and I know where my outlet is going. In the base cabinet. The insanity of the hoops to jump through and expense to have an unsightly plate on the countertop - I'll pass.
@@jaystusjh19 I’m just an electrician showing up after the fact . I’m not the homeowner or builder making those decisions. They sure do make it hard for us.
Man.. some of the disagreements and arguments I have dealt with over the last 3 years with customers, contractors, and inspectors on this issue and getting the proper amount of legal receptacles on islands is all for not. Trying to explain to customers/contractors the amount of receptacles needed at the island with the 2020 code was like talking to a brick wall and at times having to force expensive pop in installs to make them compliant was a chore which at times required me getting the inspector involved. Seems strange to over extend and then pull back so far. I'm willing to bet on 2026 they will require a pop in on the countertop if no backsplash exists and this is just the setup for it. But I can't say I disagree with the normal spot for these receptacles on the ends being dangerous. Kids running around an island and hitting an appliance cord is a scenario which isn't hard to imagine.
Man, I feel your pain, I've been a commercial industrial type of electrician for most of my time , then I spent the last 5 years doing high-end residential( I found it really rounded my knowledge) want back to commercial, My heart goes out to the residentials!
@@chrisf3875. Thank you for your understanding.
The impression I got is that the kids don't accidentally hit the cords.... They pull on them deliberately. No surprise if they ban the island side receptacles in future.
All comes down to paying attention to your kids. We've had Islands with end receptacles in all our homes and never had an issue. My girls are 27 and 24 now. They weren't allowed to play in the kitchen when we were cooking.
Why did you need to do pop ups? You only needed one receptacle within 2 feet of each end, the other outlets could be anywhere.
Does this just apply to new builds? Will it matter if I'm just adding an island later?
i always get a laugh or chuckle whenever i make a remark in class regarding something in your textbook, like "well i think the author was recommending this or that" esp with regards to the new big changes such as this one
Excellent. Thanks
Respectfully, I think the interpretation at 13:20 is incorrect. The code reads "210.52(C)(2) Island and Peninsular Countertops and Work Surfaces. Receptacle outlets, if installed to serve an island or peninsular countertop or work surface, shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(3).... 210.52(C)(3) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be located in one or more of the following:
(1) On or above, but not more than 20 inches above, a countertop or work surface
(2) In a countertop using receptacle outlet assemblies listed for use in countertops
(3) In a work surface using receptacle outlet assemblies listed for use in work surfaces or listed for use in countertops"
If you install an "optional" receptacle below the work surface/countertop, it serves the work surface or countertop, thus it is "installed to serve an island or peninsular countertop or work surface." Thus it "shall" (i.e. must) comply with 210.52(C)(3), which doesn't allow a receptacle below the countertop.
Your argument seems to require that an "optional" receptacle does not serve the countertop, but of course it serves the countertop if installed directly below it. Maybe I'm missing something?
Well, that's the problem. If I install a receptacle under a sink for a disposer in an island, does that serve the countertop? I would say no. If I install one on the side of the cabinet but it's 12" above the floor, does that serve the countertop? I would say no. How about 13" above the floor? 14"? 15"? You see where I am going here. Unfortunately, the code is not perfectly clear and it does not (and must not) prohibit receptacles from being installed lower than the countertop. If we were in court, my proffessional opinion would be the one that I gave in the video.
so if I am putting in a whole new kitchen, how do I determine where the "required" outlets go for a peninsula and island?
None are required.
Ryan I have 2 kitchen counter tops..I will wire a 20 amp circuit for these 2 counter tops..question is knowing I'm only putting 2 outlets..Am I required to split the 2 outlets up..or am I ok to put 2 outlets adjacent to each other or stagger or alternate one of each circuit..thks
@@FrankDicasmirro Doesn't matter, as long as you have two 20A circuits, both of which supply the countertop.
I don’t have a 2023 copy (yet) so I don’t have the literature in front of me, but say you have an island that has a sink and it’s a step up island that has a higher portion of bar on the opposite side from the sink, thereby giving you a “backsplash” area on either side of the sink. Because it’s an island is the code saying that a receptacle is not required for those areas? I understand your “suggestion” that you could add receptacles as “additional” receptacles that aren’t required (and I would probably install them since the HO would use that space as working surface), I’m just wanting clarification for myself. Thanks for your videos!
Do kitchen undercabinet receptacle strips satisfy the countertop/worsurface required receptacles, even though they are usually above 20in.
No. If there at 20.5 you wouldn’t meet code. You would need to drop cabinets
@jason ault OK thanks. I just see it often where people don't want anything on their backsplash protruding.
@@simplewick350 correct. Just finished kitchen with outlets built under the cabinets. They have to meet the code. Reason is you have a 2ft appliance cord attached to kitchen appliances. It’s got to be able to sit on countertop. You go higher the appliance won’t be able to stay flat
This is interesting to me. I design industrial panels...I have nothing to do with residential. But, I remember that past code change(2020) that 'required' such outlets. Why? Because I listen to you and Mike Holt videos(some music too) while I'm doing CAD or calcs or whatever. Geeky me.
I personally have gotten my foot engaged with a crock pot cord plugged into an under-counter receptacle (breakfast bar kind of thing). No one got burned or hurt but there was a lot of hot food on the floor and I looked like a fool. I thought(Engineers are supposed to think) geesh, what if a kid did that?
I'm glad to see the change...almost from 'shall' to 'shall not' in the code. Not quite but close.
The new language sounds like a lawyer's advice of language for backing out of a previous gaff in the code. No doubt lawyers review the code.
It does make me wonder if the NFPA gets sued from time to time on such things.
We had a very gifted intelligent electrical inspector at IAEI meetings that brought up that he thought some of the fine print in the NEC were due to lawyers meddling in. Granted the pop up outlets cost more but that's what I would install if I had a kitchen island. If Kitchen is large enough for an island then the NEC should require them to be on their own 20 amp AFCI breaker that does not count against the minimum two required 20 amp counter top kitchen circuits.
Thanks for the insight.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Thanks for this very clear explaination!
Great video champ. Thanks!
RYAN BRUH!! YOU DA FUKKIN MAN . REAL OG CERTIFIED 💯 🙌
there's warnings on trash bags so we are only protecting the stupid. Thank you for the explanation. As for me and my house currently being built there will be outlets under the counter top.
What about if you have a pass-through window 8 feet wide with no wall space for a receptacle to be placed 24" from sink on either side?
Thank you Ryan! As always your information is clear and concise. I only wish the NEC could have you write the code
Ryan has written many codes.
So, you can still have a receptacle below the countertop, but it may not pass inspection? Am I hearing that right?
@@RobbieTullos Basically, yes. A receptacle installed for the purpose of serving the countertop is a violation. A receptacle installed for other purposes is not.
a big question that I have for you is what would you consider a wet or damp location if you're running UF cable and you just run the wire out there do you need to sleeve it because is that technically a wet or damp location and then also it's in the slab is the UF wire should be rated for that or no?
Thanks Ryan!
Thanks allot Ryan...👍
Wow, I know about the counter top change but didn’t know you would still be able to install it below countertop still.. as a non required receptacle… I would just avoid it to cause confusion and worry about the the home owner using that receptacle for an appliance etc
My city in California is going off the old code of 2020 in 2025 and requiring me to have receptacles in my island. Should I fight them on this? Are they allowed to go by old code just because that’s what they chose?
@seafoamfog2772 That is the version that legally adopted in the state of California.
Building a new house w kitchen island. Understand that island receptacles are not required. But as an optional receptacle, can I put receptacles on the island cabinet below the island countertop?
Can you? Yes. Should you? Hell no.
13:40 once you have the pop up recep there youre probably not going to use the one on the side of the cabinet and the client is not going to pay extra to have both installed so this is kind of a moot point.
Are Quad CGFI receptacles OK?
So those island or peninsula receptacle have to be on 20amp appliance circuit or can be 15amp?
I have a 15-inch countertop with a pocket door behind it, making it difficult if not impossible to put a receptacle in the wall. (Only 1-1/4" clearance). So my only option is a pop-up for that space? That cabinet is the end of the run.
What about the knee wall, does not need a receptacle as part of the living room 12 foot general receptacles to be installed on that knee wall of the peninsula?
No way I would specify one either, but now I feel bad about the ones we installed in the past. However I question the logic we just went through with you. Once you install one at an island, you are referred to the locations as per "required" outlets. So you can read the code to say it shall be installed only in these specific locations.
I agree with you.... keep the outlets either on the counter top or wall when a wall is present.
Thank you sir.
Hello there. Actually I like what you're saying and I actually think this is a good code change. I am guilty of installing receptacles below countertops on kitchen islands but only because I work in South Carolina and occasionally North Carolina which is just now adopting the 2020 NEC. I also like the new 2023 code requirement about requiring provisions for a future receptacle outlet, while it isn't perfect or might not be ideal I think it's a good compromise. I plan to start my own electrical business in the next couple to 5 yrs depending on the economy, and I will definitely be promoting listed countertop pop up receptacles to my perspective clients.
Good Morning, The software that you had, was that from the NFPA Web site? Thanks in advance.
Curious, does this code change apply to outdoor kitchen islands?
I understand outlets are no longer required on islands. But if you opt to do it, does anybody know if there are code requirements as to where on the island surface the outlets need to be installed? Or about the quantity? Distance from the edge, distance from a sink, located every 4-ft, etc? I'm assuming the quantity is still the same (1 outlet for the first 9 sq ft, and 1 additional outlet for each additional 18 sq ft). What if the pop-up has 8 outlets on it (2 plug-ins on each of 4 sides), will that satisfy some of the required amounts? I'm about to start a major kitchen remodel, and my island will be 4ft x 10 ft. It will contain my dishwasher, sink, and microwave. Thank you for any advice you can offer!
They are no longer required so therefore there is no longer a code for how many or spacing. You can decide at this point how many and where you want them.
I had one installed to comply with 2020 (NJ) and i am going remove it after the inspection. It is a super easy safety hazard for those homes with little kids. Also, i am a 20+ year home owner. I lived in so many different homes and i never had to plug an appliance to an island receptacle.
They are maybe good for vacuum cleaners and that's it....
My question is if the new 2023 electrical code for kitchen Island receptacle apply for electrical permits that have been submitted before 2023?
If everything we do had to be looked at from that perspective we wouldn’t be able to do ANYTHING because no matter what you do, someone will find a way of doing something stupid with it and claim it’s your fault. And as far as the inspector goes, you give them way too much credit for always trying to do the right thing. Yes there are lots of great inspectors out there but there are also a whole lot of egotistical know it alls too. In my town of about 35,000 people up until about 2 years ago we had a one man building department issuing and inspecting for all trades in every type of construction, now we’re all the way up to a two man department. They require stuff that doesn’t exist in the code while ignoring many very important items that are a big deal in most municipalities. I’m a retired master electrician and still keep my license from Michigan because Tennessee doesn’t even have a master classification, yet he won’t even issue me a permit to work in my own house because he won’t issue permits to homeowners. So I just do like everyone else and don’t get permits for anything.
Sounds like you have a bonafide idiot for code enforcement. I'd take that up with city council (unless of course his brother-in-law is the council president...LOL)
Sorry im confused. So we no longer need any island plugs in 2023?
I'm not a lawyer I'm not an electrician. Given that, because a receptacle is available does not mean it is required to use. Best practice for convenience of homeowners.. is the homeowner taking the best course of action for their safety of their loved ones?
What if that sand customer use the receptacle above the counter and let the court dangle for that toddler over the counter... Is the electrician still responsible?
There’s a difference between best practice for homeowners and best practice for electricians. There’s no good reason for an electrician to install a receptacle below the surface, so don’t do it.
Anthony; that's why a lot of appliance have short cords-to prevent dangling cords over counter top edges.
As someone who finds installing island outlets a huge pain, I love the change.
how is a pop-up countertop outlet less pain?
@@quitstalin not installing any outlets is less of a pain. But pop ups are to bad if you prep for them right
@@AllTrac7200 not being able to plug in my stand mixer because no outlets were installed is the biggest pain of all
@@AllTrac7200 I love to plug my kitchenaid or a juicer and use the island space. If not where do I put them, now I have to put a an extension cord to the island which is more dangerous letting people trip, hmm.
What’s the code required distance for a sink On a pop up receptacle ?
There is none.
I'm still confused. At first you say that the new 2023 code now does not require any outlets in a kitchen island or peninsula, they are optional. Then later on, you state that an outlet can in fact be located below the countertop level if it is not a required outlet, rather, an optional one. That would make any outlet on the island or peninsula fine to install below counter top level as they are all, according to what you said, optional. Everywhere else I am reading they are interpreting the code to say that even "optional" outlets must be above counter top level since they all are optional in that location.
@@sandman3992 I'm am correct. The 2026 NEC fixes the issue, however. It just won't be available for another year.
I know this is off topic, but props about mentioning the burn issue. It can't be emphasized enough that all you need to do is turn the handles so they can't be grabbed or bumped. Hot appliances should be pushed back as far as possible from the edge. First time parents often forget this because they are so sleep-deprived, and trying to figure out the whole parenting thing, so it's especially dangerous for the little ones once they start walking.
Thanks for the info!