I always wondered if one use of D2 was to do the seas shell thing so that the Kuo Toans can later be stirred up into a religious crusade against the Drow - Triggering a civil war among the Underworld races seems like a good way for the players to do in order to get out of dodge after defeating the Eilservs/EEG.
Very nice modules. I am fortunate enough to have a pristine copy of the Menzoberranzan box set for AD&D 2E. I don't care much for playing or running games in the Forgotten Realms but that box set is invaluable for information on Drow cities and such.
I share your love for these, but Ye Gods there is a lot of DM prepwork (or at the very least exceptional "wing it" capabilities) required. From the possibility (nay, probability!) of the players deviating from the direct underworld path into other random encounter areas (some of them quite vast) to the details of maps of the various towers, fortresses, estates, etc. in the Vault... Even if you thumbnail sketch these or use generics, it's not trivial. The rewards are excellent, and there have been several attempts to do crowdsourced write-ups of the off-the-beaten path encounter areas (the one detailing the ghoul/ghast homeland is my favorite by far), so it's not insurmountable. But... not for the amateur, as I was when I ran it 30-odd years ago.
True, if the players go off the map into those undetailed areas, it could devolve into a nightmare for the DM. IIRC, there was an effort on Canonfire a few years ago to detail them all.
I seem to remember that by the time they reached D3, the P.C.'s led a small army of Deep Gnome henchmen, liberated slaves, and one or two unexpected allies from the Underdark (like a beholder that had a grudge against the Drow and an enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend mentality).
Great review. Fabulous modules. These are how source material should be laid out, regardless their flaws. Yes there are flaws, nothing is perfect; but man, they are SO evocative. It boggles the mind how they inspire creativity. There is just SO much information in those scant pages. Boiled down gazetteers, really; which may be why Gygax focusses so much on Lolth and not the EEG. Gygax was such a great game designer. One only has to read modules that came after his departure from TSR to appreciate his skill. Those early adventures are masterpieces. One thing I know, the D series is not for the feint of heart. Not for the bold, either. But great DMs will have prepared their players for what will come. Depends on the player, though, doesn't it. So impressed with your physical copies, BTW. Purchased in 1978! WOW!
I enjoyed running these modules back in the day! I agree that they begin to get away from the break-down-the-door/kill-the-monster/get-the-treasure/heal/break-down-the-next-door rut that D&D can become. My PC's did manage to cross the Svartjet River without setting off Thoopshib the kuo-toan boatman (I think a Comprehend Languages spell helped, now that I think about it). In addition to the Deep Gnomes, other sources of allies that players can tap (and that the players in my game definitely took advantage of) are the groups of slaves that the PC's will inevitably liberate. Some of them won't help them, especially the evil-aligned ones, but others might. I also liked how there were so many areas the D.M. could key himself, outside of the main path that is keyed.
I'm a fan of telling your players honestly what this scenario is about is it fighting roleplaying infiltrating etc.. Great review of the D series modules. I love reading the modules, learning about all the monsters and NPC I like imaging the how all the clans factions and monsters alli and fight against each other naming them all playing their motivations against each other. it takes me a long time to prep for games but I love the prep as much as running the game.
@@namelessjedi2242 this isn't used in every game. Only when the DM feels it necessary if the players are getting crossed signals of what type of approach is needed to at least have a chance at the adventure. It's still up to them to role-play out the scenario.
Timely, as I said in the G reviews I'm running these now, but on a brief new baby hiatus. Yeah, you nailed it, great shells for adventure, but it takes a lot of work from the DM to bring these things to life, And your party will probably end up ignoring all the stuff you heavily prep and take a tangent into someplace you're not ready for anyways. My party smoothed their way through the first checkpoint with a story that they were outlaws from the surface looking for sanctuary. They side passaged around the mind flayers, and have just reached the main cavern.
Great video. You point out all the opportunities for a thinking party, one of the aspects I love about the Descent modules. If I ever have another go at the D series, I'll definitely pick up your D4.
Recent subscriber, I am enjoying the series reviews! It's nice to revisit some of my earliest D&D memories and hear your informed thoughts on the G and D series! I have also been sampling some of the older vids on your channel - all excellent content imo.
Hello Grognard, Thank you for this very informative video which allows to clear the important informations of the ton of reading represented by this campaign and to point the finger at the elements which allow to bind the whole in a coherent arc. I am getting ready to play the series of giants and your video is an essential guide that allows you to have an overview of the rest of the events. It also helps introduce PCs to the different factions so they can get used to meeting them later while giving them the impression of a living and vibrant world. Do you think it is interesting to play the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun and the Lost Caves of Tsojcanth before the giants? By that I mean it would be a way to introduce the Gnomes and their cousins from the Deep. Last question: "And Iuz, in all this?" Thanks again and have a nice day!
I think there's a lot more connective tissue between Temple of Elemental Evil and these modules than there is between Tsojcanth and Thairzdun. If you go over to the blog, I've written extensively over the years about those connections, and even hazarded a couple of ways to run these old modules in series. I consider some of my conclusions outdated, but you might still find them of interest. Plus, I'll be getting to those adventures you mention eventually in this series of retrospectives.
@@GreyhawkGrognard Merci. I entended to play WG3 and S4 to give some clues about the Giant and Tharizdun. I think I would start with G1 and then continue with a sandbox including G2 (by moving the latter in the Yatils glaciers), WG4 and S4. I hope that the players will not be overwhelmed by all the information. Goodbye !
We always use the Menzoberranzan boxed set for Erelhei-Cinlu....because we're kinda lazy like that. lol Plus the maps are really awesome and detailed in that boxed set.....I think its like 4 maps that piece together?
TBH my interest in Forgotten Realms waned before the Menzoberranzan box came out, so I never got it. I did end up making my own Erelhei-Cinlu urban adventure, which is a free download on the blog.
D3 in particular has me wondering, since these are tournament modules, how GG actually ran D3 himself, or any of the tournament GMs in 1978. (And I could kick myself, I lived in Kenosha and was at that GenCon but was too busy pushing lead to be bothered with D&D!) The GX serries is so clearly set to be connected "one shots" and D1-2 are rather the same with better connections. D3 is a *setting* and I have to wonder how that ran as tournament.
Awww, you're no fun. The goal of D2 should be to try to attract & kill Blibdoolpoolp in the Shrine's holiest spot. Nothing's as refreshing as hand-to-hand combat with an insane goddess. 😜
Especially one that looks like a naked lady with a lobster head and claws. :) Bard: "I know she's an mad god and an abomination against nature and all, but is anyone else a little turned on?" Rest of the party: "NO!!!"
None of our groups were interested in exploring a Drow city, I as a player and as a DM could generate zero interest because the reward/danger is not balanced.
@@GreyhawkGrognard You made up the idea that “there’s a cut off date for spoilers”. If you want your videos to be watched by players, and not merely DMs, then you will try to make spoiler-free videos of modules, or include spoiler-free sections before switching to DM-only talk. Some video makers do this, even for 1st edition AD&D modules.
![D2 Shrine of the Kuo Toa (a D&D mod) [ RPGmodsFan ]](/img/n.gif)
I always wondered if one use of D2 was to do the seas shell thing so that the Kuo Toans can later be stirred up into a religious crusade against the Drow - Triggering a civil war among the Underworld races seems like a good way for the players to do in order to get out of dodge after defeating the Eilservs/EEG.
Very nice modules. I am fortunate enough to have a pristine copy of the Menzoberranzan box set for AD&D 2E. I don't care much for playing or running games in the Forgotten Realms but that box set is invaluable for information on Drow cities and such.
I share your love for these, but Ye Gods there is a lot of DM prepwork (or at the very least exceptional "wing it" capabilities) required. From the possibility (nay, probability!) of the players deviating from the direct underworld path into other random encounter areas (some of them quite vast) to the details of maps of the various towers, fortresses, estates, etc. in the Vault... Even if you thumbnail sketch these or use generics, it's not trivial.
The rewards are excellent, and there have been several attempts to do crowdsourced write-ups of the off-the-beaten path encounter areas (the one detailing the ghoul/ghast homeland is my favorite by far), so it's not insurmountable. But... not for the amateur, as I was when I ran it 30-odd years ago.
True, if the players go off the map into those undetailed areas, it could devolve into a nightmare for the DM. IIRC, there was an effort on Canonfire a few years ago to detail them all.
I seem to remember that by the time they reached D3, the P.C.'s led a small army of Deep Gnome henchmen, liberated slaves, and one or two unexpected allies from the Underdark (like a beholder that had a grudge against the Drow and an enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my-friend mentality).
I like your D4 module. It is pretty good. Congrats.
Great review.
Fabulous modules. These are how source material should be laid out, regardless their flaws. Yes there are flaws, nothing is perfect; but man, they are SO evocative. It boggles the mind how they inspire creativity. There is just SO much information in those scant pages. Boiled down gazetteers, really; which may be why Gygax focusses so much on Lolth and not the EEG. Gygax was such a great game designer. One only has to read modules that came after his departure from TSR to appreciate his skill. Those early adventures are masterpieces.
One thing I know, the D series is not for the feint of heart. Not for the bold, either. But great DMs will have prepared their players for what will come. Depends on the player, though, doesn't it.
So impressed with your physical copies, BTW. Purchased in 1978! WOW!
I enjoyed running these modules back in the day! I agree that they begin to get away from the break-down-the-door/kill-the-monster/get-the-treasure/heal/break-down-the-next-door rut that D&D can become. My PC's did manage to cross the Svartjet River without setting off Thoopshib the kuo-toan boatman (I think a Comprehend Languages spell helped, now that I think about it). In addition to the Deep Gnomes, other sources of allies that players can tap (and that the players in my game definitely took advantage of) are the groups of slaves that the PC's will inevitably liberate. Some of them won't help them, especially the evil-aligned ones, but others might. I also liked how there were so many areas the D.M. could key himself, outside of the main path that is keyed.
I'm a fan of telling your players honestly what this scenario is about is it fighting roleplaying infiltrating etc.. Great review of the D series modules. I love reading the modules, learning about all the monsters and NPC I like imaging the how all the clans factions and monsters alli and fight against each other naming them all playing their motivations against each other. it takes me a long time to prep for games but I love the prep as much as running the game.
What about modules that are open to different approaches by the PCs? Hopefully you don’t tell them how they are to behave!
@@namelessjedi2242 this isn't used in every game. Only when the DM feels it necessary if the players are getting crossed signals of what type of approach is needed to at least have a chance at the adventure. It's still up to them to role-play out the scenario.
Timely, as I said in the G reviews I'm running these now, but on a brief new baby hiatus. Yeah, you nailed it, great shells for adventure, but it takes a lot of work from the DM to bring these things to life, And your party will probably end up ignoring all the stuff you heavily prep and take a tangent into someplace you're not ready for anyways. My party smoothed their way through the first checkpoint with a story that they were outlaws from the surface looking for sanctuary. They side passaged around the mind flayers, and have just reached the main cavern.
The mind flayers on the 3rd level of the Fire Giant Hall gave the party a very tough time, and now the players are terrified of them.
Great video. You point out all the opportunities for a thinking party, one of the aspects I love about the Descent modules. If I ever have another go at the D series, I'll definitely pick up your D4.
It's a free download on the blog. No reason to wait! :-)
Ooh! Link?
Brilliant! Thank you. Very informative and helpful, and I am looking forward to next in series. Continue well and peaceful.
Great video, really enjoying your reviews!
Thanks so much!
I know it's not Gygax, but the 2e Monster Mythology book has a terrific and evocative description of the Elder Elemental God.
Tharizdun you say?
Recent subscriber, I am enjoying the series reviews! It's nice to revisit some of my earliest D&D memories and hear your informed thoughts on the G and D series! I have also been sampling some of the older vids on your channel - all excellent content imo.
Man, that was a GREAT set of adventures!
Good stuff as always! 👍🏽
Just waiting on my POD copies of G1-3, D1-2, D3, Q1!
In all candor, I don't care for the "Gygaxian Modules" overall. But Shrine of the Kuo Toa is different. Loved it. Love it.
Shrine's my favorite of the whole series as well. The kuo-toa are my favorite flavor of fishmen, and who doesn't love Blibdoolpoolp?
Hello Grognard,
Thank you for this very informative video which allows to clear the important informations of the ton of reading represented by this campaign and to point the finger at the elements which allow to bind the whole in a coherent arc.
I am getting ready to play the series of giants and your video is an essential guide that allows you to have an overview of the rest of the events.
It also helps introduce PCs to the different factions so they can get used to meeting them later while giving them the impression of a living and vibrant world.
Do you think it is interesting to play the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun and the Lost Caves of Tsojcanth before the giants?
By that I mean it would be a way to introduce the Gnomes and their cousins from the Deep.
Last question: "And Iuz, in all this?"
Thanks again and have a nice day!
I think there's a lot more connective tissue between Temple of Elemental Evil and these modules than there is between Tsojcanth and Thairzdun. If you go over to the blog, I've written extensively over the years about those connections, and even hazarded a couple of ways to run these old modules in series. I consider some of my conclusions outdated, but you might still find them of interest.
Plus, I'll be getting to those adventures you mention eventually in this series of retrospectives.
@@GreyhawkGrognard
Merci.
I entended to play WG3 and S4 to give some clues about the Giant and Tharizdun.
I think I would start with G1 and then continue with a sandbox including G2 (by moving the latter in the Yatils glaciers), WG4 and S4.
I hope that the players will not be overwhelmed by all the information.
Goodbye !
Great review TY
how much is it to join in your campaign
Later inspired the music of they might be giants.
We always use the Menzoberranzan boxed set for Erelhei-Cinlu....because we're kinda lazy like that. lol Plus the maps are really awesome and detailed in that boxed set.....I think its like 4 maps that piece together?
TBH my interest in Forgotten Realms waned before the Menzoberranzan box came out, so I never got it. I did end up making my own Erelhei-Cinlu urban adventure, which is a free download on the blog.
@@GreyhawkGrognard Yep I just joined the blog today so I could check it out! ;)
D3 in particular has me wondering, since these are tournament modules, how GG actually ran D3 himself, or any of the tournament GMs in 1978. (And I could kick myself, I lived in Kenosha and was at that GenCon but was too busy pushing lead to be bothered with D&D!) The GX serries is so clearly set to be connected "one shots" and D1-2 are rather the same with better connections. D3 is a *setting* and I have to wonder how that ran as tournament.
Awww, you're no fun. The goal of D2 should be to try to attract & kill Blibdoolpoolp in the Shrine's holiest spot. Nothing's as refreshing as hand-to-hand combat with an insane goddess.
😜
Especially one that looks like a naked lady with a lobster head and claws. :)
Bard: "I know she's an mad god and an abomination against nature and all, but is anyone else a little turned on?"
Rest of the party: "NO!!!"
The rest of the party dragging the Bard off while he is screaming "just gimme 5 minutes guys....guys"
None of our groups were interested in exploring a Drow city, I as a player and as a DM could generate zero interest because the reward/danger is not balanced.
I6 > D3! .... D3 > 'all-other-modules'!
Play factions off of each other? My God! You mean the PCs will actually have to ROLE play? (face in palm)
Mwahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
This video has spoilers, yeah? I might play in this module series, so I only want to listen to videos that won’t give away details.
After 43 years, the cutoff date for spoiler warnings has expired. :-)
But yes, there are many such details in these "retrospective" videos.
@@GreyhawkGrognard
You made up the idea that “there’s a cut off date for spoilers”.
If you want your videos to be watched by players, and not merely DMs, then you will try to make spoiler-free videos of modules, or include spoiler-free sections before switching to DM-only talk. Some video makers do this, even for 1st edition AD&D modules.
@@SimonAshworthWood Spoilers: The Rebels blow up the Death Star!
@@GreyhawkGrognard both times 😆🤣😂😹😆🤣
@@adampender2482 @Greyhawk Grognard Dammit! I was gonna watch A New Hope tonight (lol)