If WOTC had any sense whatsoever, they'd lean into and embrace the differences between the settings as a marketing strategy. Forgotten Realms as the D&D kitchen sink; Greyhawk as the stripped back, pulpy setting; Mystara as the melting pot of real cultures and divergant weirdness; Dark Sun as the hardcore Mad Max setting etc. But they won't, and we all know why.
I've been saying this for years. I just keep using all my TSR era stuff. The new people who are being introduced are missing out on so much stuff. It's kind of up to us to keep it circling and flowing. Modern D&D is the oatmeal of RPGs. Safe, bland (generalized medieval fantasy) and easily consumed by everyone. Matthew Colville has a great video about it. I cannot remember the title, but he starts the video asking if anyone has used the equipment list post creation, and how D&D has evolved over the editions. I'll edit this when I find the name of the video.
@@Grimlore82 The best way I've ever heard it described (and sadly I don't remember who said it) was that D&D used to be Punk and Heavy Metal. Now it's Pop, and Modern Day Pop at that.
It reminds me of how I felt after Disney bought Star Wars and they threw out the EU canon. I was a BIG EU guy, I had tons of WEG RPG books, novels, reference books, I knew the EU inside and out. So when DIsney deep sixed it, it rubbed me wrong. Now I talk to my step kids about star wars, and there is such a huge disconnect between the "new" canon and old EU/pre disney canon. And its kind of frustrating, I dont know what is relevant anymore. Theyve "borrowed" some things from the EU, repurposed them, and even that is so different... I have no idea what the kids are talking about, and they have no idea what I'm talking about lol. That could be a problem here. I'm not sure how big of an influx Greyhawk will see. It might bring back 5E DMs who played in Greyhawk when they were younger, but I'm not sure how interested younger DMs will be to run it as a setting. It seems to me that generationally, younger DMs/Players want very different things from their settings then what we like. So new DMs will be faced with hammering Greyhawk into a more fantastical setting vs just building their own, or going to a setting that is closer to that more fantastical anything goes kind of setting. I could be wrong about that. I think the perception of Greyhawk could also be driven by what kind of content we see on DMsGuild. Right now the early products are being written by grognard types who wish to remain faithful to the setting.. But who knows what we might see in a year or two? And who knows if WOTC keeps away from Greyhawk. I believe the plan is to leave it be for now.. But tomorrow is a new day, and that'll drive things too. Its a strange situation, and we'll see what happens I suppose. Thankfully many good people, like yourself, will always keep the spirit of Greyhawk alive.
Covid got me cleaning out my gaming stuff from the 80's and I nearly tossed it. But a look around online made me want to game again, and I do. I adapted my favorite old modules to 5e, I got the Essentials Kit and the Starter set and found some willing players at a local game store and I've run games for the last 3 years. I've spent the last couple years reading, learning and adapting the Greyhawk setting. I don't know anything about the books, magazines or other cannon, Greyhawk is new to me. But I respect those who do, and I watch your videos for inspiration. (The maps and stuff I used 'back in the day' was all Judges Guild.) This coming year I'm breaking out of Forgotten Realms and into Greyhawk. My players and I are using the gold box as our template, and we are going to write our own history. Don't know how the New Edition is going to work, but I've got a table of players looking forward to Salt Marsh in January. We are gonna have a great time breathing life into the old setting.
I think comments like this show that we can all take a deep breath and realize that it will be ok. Only noobs believe everything and use everything that WOTC puts out there, there are a lot of intelligent players, both young and old.
@@danielgoldberg5357 Thank you. D&D has been around a long time and there's a lot of good material out there. Sure, WotC is a business and they have plans. So do I. I've got maps, modules and players therefore I'm gonna have a lot of fun with what I've got at hand. I collect what I can use at my table, and run my games face to face with a range of ages. I don't mind wading into an old module like Red Hand of Doom (my current project) or the 5e version of Saltmarsh if I think my players will enjoy it.
I thinnk the problem with the "New" Greyhawk vs. "Classic" Greyhawk is going to be the disclaimer. The original setting had lots of countries and places that weren't at all "Nice" and they were inhabited by people who weren't at all "Nice" either (the Pomarj and the great kingdom spring to mind)...there's no way to polish that up or sanitize that and make it "Not Evil"...and these days the very concept of "Evil" upsets people, who seem to want to believe that somehow every Orc and Bugbear is just misunderstood and that the king who makes deals with demons and devils is just "Misguided"...NO!!!
As someone that has used various official settings over the years, I can say from first hand experiance that the official setting is largely only something that the dm cares about. You are going to get confusion if they come to the table with a Henn character and halflings do not have The Denial in this setting or something, but players almost never care as they are there to play an rpg, not give the dm an open book quiz on the setting. If you decide you do not have fey in your game, players rarly push back unless they came for a fey themed game. The table's continuity is more important than the setting; that is what players notice more than anything. The "schism" in Greyhawk would happen if you had two dm's running the same campaign out of the same book. The "scaflting" model causes this by its nature as the vague wording on x page causes the first dm to beleive the official setting has the Demon x-icus to have a cult in y region while the second dm interpreted that page on as rumor and there are no stats for the Demon x-icus, so it must not exist at all. Continuity was not great at TSR even with the same authors and artists being involved, and a lot of things are ret-coned and changed even in the 70's and 80's.
I'm a younger player who learned from 1e players and has read some of Gygax's novels, I play 5e but am overall a bigger fan of OSR and Grayhawk is one of my favorite settings. I thank part of what makes Grayhawk a good setting is the fact that so much of its lore was developed out of actual game sessions and I can't help but feel an instinct that something like that will happen here (eventually). Having also watched a similar thing happen in the Warhammer fandom (increasing corporatizaiton of an IP) I think that people will just have to create spaces where they can continue to keep a version of what really matters to them alive because ultimately these settings are, to the people who enjoy them, are an idea more important than just a trademark that a company can own and control, someday our laws might even reflect this fact.
I recently got into greyhawk because I heard the new Dm's guide had a chapter for the setting. It made me go back and research a lot of the old material. I would love to play a classic version of greyhawk; it's refreshingly down to earth and truly feels medieval. I think the main difference will be players expecting to be able to play monsterous races. I want to start a campaign in Furyondy that eventually leads to a City of Skulls inspired adventure in Dorakaa. Tieflings and Orc characters would just look like the enemy. Depending on what my player's want, I might make some tiefling aristocrats in Chendl or make the Barony of Littleberg have an Orc ruler, so these races become more commonly accepted by the people. I think most new players introduced to Greyhawk would be fine if you said that some character options don't fit particularly well in Greyhawk; you would just have to discuss it beforehand.
A bit of disclaimer upfront. I'm a 5e player who got into spelljammer and wants to get into mystara. From my "layman's" perspective, I feel like the best approach to this kind of thing is to get them hooked on the pre-existing lore. Use it as hype so that when they do get into it, they fall in love with a slightly modified version of it, but mostly the same. My campaign setting was already homebrew to hell in back, but I have had fun tossing spelljammer's lore into the cooking pot. I feel like old spelljammer lore beats out the watered down product wotc gave us and part of the old lore made into my setting. Heck, this channel has lore videos, so I think that's the perfect nerd gateway into the setting
I don't understand the issue. I use Greyhawk as a homebrew setting based on the boxed set I bought around 1984. I just introduce it to new players as "my" Greyhawk campaign setting and my lore is canon at my table. Everyone is happy with that, it becomes their setting and there are no experts at the table harping on about the official canon and objecting to the events happening in our shared campaign. It's really easy.
I agree with your sentiments. I play mostly with my children, but a couple of them are far less of a grognard than I am. I feel the pressure at the kitchen table sometimes, I can't imagine what cons would be like.
Absolutely no one is going to shit on you for liking the older editions. Only older people are shitting on other people for liking things because it's the only way for the talentless to get views.
Well, considering what they did to Ravenloft and Dragonlance I am actually glad that my favorite setting (Birthright) is just too obscure to be worthy of WotC's "attention". Can you imagine this? A fan actually happy that his favorite thing is NOT getting new products and development? Hard times.
Good video. Sounds like they are going to do a "Disney Star Wars" on Greyhawk. I think if you are running an older edition of D&D most reasonable people will expect that you are using the world as established in that edition. That's my experience with running D6 Star Wars in the modern day. You let folks know that pre-Disney is your canon and they usually just nod and go with it. However, if you are doing the new edition of D&D, they will expect the new lore. You'll have a schism in the way that "old Star Wars" and "new Star Wars" are divided. You have the added disadvantage of there being a popular modern RPG to skew expectations. However, I think that as long as you manage expectations going in and are clear about edition and lore you probably won't have too many problems.
As someone who played a tiny bit in 3.5 and really got started in 5e, I prefer to use paper resources at my table, and I do pretty in depth research to any DnD elements in my game, I like DnD specifically because of it's history.
I am a Greyhawk DM since... forever, somehow. It was around 1989, 1990 (I was 15) when I first started playing and then running D&D, 2e was brand new. I was looking for a setting and the guy in our local hobby shop showed me the options I had. Forgotten Realms, Mystara/Known World (and Basic), Dragonlance. Greyhawk Adventures had recently launched/arrived (american stuff took a while to get across the Atlantic), the Gold Box was not available, but City of Greyhawk was on the shelf. Orange spines everywhere and the 2e black spines were growing in number. As I live in Germany, 1e had just launched in German (it took a while...) and the Basic Boxes in German were not completely outdated, but the New and Easy to Master and Rules Cyclopedia would be launched not far in the future... I got the Greyhawk Adventures book and the City Box for Christmas, and started reading. I had the local/regional maps of the city's area, but not much more, only a few hints about the Gods (incl. Pholtus, but not Pelor...) and no other informations, so I had to make up my own Greyhawk. When I got a Gold Box later, I noticed how different my own Greyhawk had become and my people would take a moment if I sent them to the official setting. Similar to Greg Staffords saying: "Your Oerth will be different". I do not have the new DMG yet and I cannot say how different it is from Gygaxian, 2e FtA-Greyhawk, Early WotC Greyhawk or 3e Living Greyhawk... A do not like 5e very much and I only have the Core Rules and the Essentials Box, and the new 2024 PHB. Maybe I will buy one next month, it has no real priority for me. My campaign runs on Oe (incl. Greyhawk, Blackmoor and Eldritch Wizardry) atm, and my players like this more than AD&D, even though I use the MM (I hate searching for the monsters through 4 booklets/PDFs...) Every new DM adopting Oerth will make it their own. As Gary stated, when groups start their own games, Oerth or whatever world becomes their own. My Oerth is humancentric, but has independently working Orc (and whatever) tribes with their own plans, clan structures etc. They are not just evil forces pawns or mooks for a random Big Baddy, they are intelligent enemies to reckon with. Kobolds are doglike, the Great Kingdom is a not so great place to un-live and the Greyhawk Wars took an all different path, stopping Iuz invasion between Riftcraig, the Tangles and Stoink. That were many intense sessions of Grewhawk Wars strategy gaminge back then ;) But my talented players almost botched all the adventures of Fate of Istus :D So yes, this Greyhawk is Something Completely Different and there are Rodents of Extraordinary Size... Ever tried to stop a cult of Kyuss by the usage of Burburs? Good luck :D What I want to say: There is hope. Not all young people will make Oerth a purplehaired-unicorn/orc-princess realm with barristas baking cake in their Bastion is the most challenging quest (sarcasm, I am queer myself, but overacting some of the OSR/Grognard crowd I am a part of myself of - we have to rethink ourselves sometimes). My daughter and her players (a group of up to 10 folks, 15 to 22 yo; I introduced most of them to 1e a few years ago) honor old school/classic/traditional gaming, they value the work of others. But they do not want a sweet fairy realm of Icing and Fondant, they love their realms grimdark, gritty and wild. They love levers, teleporters, portcullies, random encounters, hex crawls and practical riddles. (But no math or geometry please ;) ) And they are just as weird and random as I and my players have been in the early 90s. She just borrowed my copy of Tomb of Horrors 2 weeks ago, so there is hope... Or I hope so ;)
Bud, the fact that we modern audiences have such short attention spans, in general, will be a barrier to getting into the deeper lore. However, I think that you are correct. I do hope that the introduction will lead people to look into the setting with some more depth. I think you, Jay and the fellows in the "Grayhawk Online" community are, and have been, good shepherds of the property and that some younger people will find all of that work eventually though the new introduction. However, in the long run. it is up to the GMs that are running the game as to how they want to utilize the materials. If people add to the setting that should be a good thing because they are, as Gary put it, "making it their own". Right? And you. Mr. Bloch. as a GM. can pick and choose what you use for your games as well. I don't think looking for homogeneity or orthodoxy will serve the growth of the setting. I could be very wrong, but I believe the community will survive the diverse outlooks and that the contributions will be incorporated on an individual campaign basis. I know that I love hearing stories about how this or that adventure played out in my fellow gamers campaigns. Those are not my games but they can spark new ideas for my own version of the setting and may give it more depth and interest. That being said,, I want to thank you very much for your thoughts and I appreciate you and all you do to keep Greyhawk alive.
There will absolutely be a schism! WotC has never wanted to pursue the Greyhawk setting and, imho, are absolutely mortified at the osr community and those who have reverted to earlier edition games for not worshipping at the feet of 5e. Never mind the vast disgust at their actions regarding the ogl and now One D&D or whatever they are calling it. This feels to me, and I won't be providing them any monetary gain by buying their tripe, like a last ditch effort to remove any influence E.G.G. and any of the early gaming community has on what they see as "their" property. I have never understood the need to make every monster race a viable PC class and have seen the institution of most of the changes in 5E geared toward the "video game" generation. "Look, you can play online on our for profit web platform! You can create an overpowered character whose race, (pardon me - background), doesn't have to match the setting, can never die and your DM is required to cater to every silly whim you have because D&D is not a game per se, it is a collaborative story which centers around your awesomeness." I only speak for myself, but I am firmly in the "old" Greyhawk camp. I hope I am wrong but WotC track record is not good.
@@DarkAutumnScribe Spelljammer was incredibly half-baked, too. I'm convinced that April Fools joke blew up in their face and they gave a bunch of interns six months to put out a book to save PR. It was so lacking that my 5e-only friend went back to scour the 2e stuff for actual content.
I'm trying not to buy the FR book they have planned to come out next year. As for the other settings I've been spending time trying to work forward a amount of time appropriate from their last real update around 3.5/4e so that it matches where the realms are at. For Tavenloft I've been trying to work on the time of unparalleled darkness. Basically the defenses around all the domains fail and the monsters are unbidden to remain where they are, somewhat like Castlvania and its night creatures.
I seriously recommend folks grab a copy of a TSR era setting and use whatever system you prefer. Ravenloft works very well with Dungeon Crawl Classics, for example. The dangerous nature of magic in the setting meshes extremely well with the magical corruption mechanics of DCC.
The "butchering" of Ravenloft resulted in massive sales of their new book. Butchering is an opinion, and you are welcome to have it, but they get to do whatever they want with whatever they own, and as long as it results in sales, they aren't going to change their process.
I am absolutely not a grognard and look upon any pre-5e mechanic with dread But I fell in love with 2e Planescape setting and so far no post-2e material on it made me want to add it in my games
You're my go-to source of Greyhawk info as a newer DM of only 10 years in the hobby. From novel and adventure recommendations, etc. I don't need WoTC for anything TTRPG related at all.
As an older player I find it exciting to breath new life into greyhawk. I personally prefer main book races and classes unless it's campaign specific but I feel the new races in the main book can easily just be part of the setting. As an example tieflings seem like they would be pretty common in the empire of iuz. Dragonborn living remnants of an ancient dragon conflict. Adapt your story. Issues with game mechanics is understandable ( not a fan of going to sleep and waking up full health) but setting is the DM responsibility to shape
I'm going the opposite direction, I had to take over DMing a 5e group and I'm taking them back to Mystara (specifically Karameikos). The power of that Gazetteer cover art is undeniable!
I don't disagree that there will be a bi-forcation but I think it will be for different reasons. As someone who works with teens, I do not see this new generation being as particular as our generation. They are less committed to preserving well, anything. Their world changes with every new Tik Tik. The digital age has shaped their expectations for immediate gratification. My teen players are less patient with lengthy lore exposition or complex worldbuilding. We are the "well actually.." generation and they are the "My character leaps over the ....oh look a new shiny." generation. They prioritize the immediate, immersive experience of the game over lore. In my experience they're drawn to the mechanics, character creation, and the social aspect of playing with friends. All that to say, there will never be another generation like our no matter how hard we try to recreate it. I'll welcome these new in players to the hobby and take them to The Village of Hommlet, and maybe on a few of your adventures, and see where they want to go from them. Keep up the good work of keeping Greyhawk alive for all the generations.
Part of what you are noticing is because only a tiny fraction of our generation was into the hobby in the first place. Certainly there’s some generational differences in attitude, but what you describe about enjoying the game play and social interaction more than the lore has much more to do with the widening of the audience than their youth, imho.
I’m a younger person, I’m in my 20s, please don’t generalize people as so stupid and beneath you, it’s dehumanizing. We aren’t brain dead just because we’re younger. That said I’m a fan of old school, but I just like trying all sorts of stuff. I’m running 1e Gamma World for a group atm. At the end of the day, it’s just a game. If people are having fun, who cares how they have it?
Bracing myself for this DMG release to drop more bombshell canonical changes: Tenser will now be half tiefling, the Suel / Baklunish / Oeridian pantheons will be combined into a single family of Greyhawk deities, and Grazzt will refer to himself as an arch fiend. 😂
It wil be the difference between Tolkein's LOTR and Amazon's LOTR. Fans will have sides, WoTC will treat old D&D fans like crap, and it will amble on in this manner. The original Greyhawk community is seasoned enough to embrace new like minded friends and politely reject the "modern" audience conformist homogenized corpo product that doesn't pass the authenticity sniff test. Regardless, let's keep building the OG tribe with dignity and good intent! WotC owns a license not the hobby.
I'm not certain that alterations haven't been made to the "older" materials that they're re-offering, since all of us "Grognards" already have those materials. I suspect changes have been made for the new Gamers that are going to be buying those books. And I have no intention of buying them just to find out.
I will always be a first edition gamer. Greyhawk , Mystara, Forgotten Realms or worlds I create on my own. Second edition is a possibility but no further. Carry on Grognard. You are greatly appreciated.
Sounds like DMs will do, what many did after the WoG box came out, we made our home brew pretty soon after and bought things if we wanted to or not. So nothing really changed. And this is from me who bought every book, box, and gazeteer from that time, at the time.
I will not purchase the new D&D books and I will continue to play original 5th edition or any of the older editions that my players and I cut our teeth on. I will not play with the types of people that solely embrace these new editions and the absurd restrictions they want to put on GM's to spare their feelings. My players range from 50 to 22 in age and we all can play without any problems the way D&D was intended.
Back in the late 70’s early 80’s I bought the 1st edition books and lead miniatures at Toys R US. I saw all the references to Greyhawk in the books at the time but couldn’t find the setting in any of the stores around. Years later I was able to buy a used off eBay before the prices jumped up.
A 'sanitized' setting and 'sanitized' content is boring. There has to be evil to fight and evil is messy. Certain game companies continue to double down on mistakes. I no longer hope they will learn from their mistakes and make content I want to buy. I am going to make and run content my players want. There's so many good products by smaller companies and individuals that I can use.
I am excited to play in Greyhawk. I am glad to play in Forgotten Realms because, as a DM, having preset lore makes my job easier. But I know a lot of that lore is steeped in Greyhawk. What I am most interested in is where Barovia, Strahd, and Ravenloft comes from.
I understand your passion about wanting a property you care about to be handled with love and attention by the unfeeling corporation running it (Halo). Embrace the folks coming in with new perspectives and hold onto what you care about at the same time. Our hobbies should be personal to us and should bring us a level of comfort and peace. If new folks joining your hobby rub you the wrong way, find common ground and stand together there. It's okay to ignore the differences for a time until both parties can come to respect one another's opinions and preferences.
Wait until all the goblins are changed to very emotional he/hims with a sense of caring and compassion and an instictive trait of being family oriented and blah blah blah
I stick to AD&D 1st Edition. The later editions mean little to me. We have a large group of such people. I like hearing what other people think. I don't have to have any influence to learn from others. WOTC means little to me.
The current people in charge of DnD believe that orcs were a negative caricature of african americans and wanted to change things they viewed as racist. Anyone who believed that are the racist ones, which is proven by the mexican caricature of the orc artwork specifically. The new artwork design itself is full of race swaps that make no sense, like why is the grey elf queen now african american with a black afro? Grey elves have extremely pale grey skin and either gold or silver hair, not blonde or auburn, literal silver or gold. DnD designers are trash, wish they'd keep their pandering politics out of the game.
While the bulk of my experience with _Greyhawk_ was from 3rd Edition, my understanding (or at least my personal head-canon from here-on-out) is that the "new" timeline has been reset to that of 1st Edition (perhaps to just start off "clean" without any of the later baggage), so my plan is to just study up on 1e/2e lore and apply it to the new mechanics as best as possible.
I agree with you. My kids are going to learn GH as it originally existed. Their friends are too. I have such disdain for the current ideology running WotC that I'm fine if all their work gets memory holed. I have a sneaking suspicion that will happen.
I expect them to choose one small section of the world(Around The City of GreyhawK) and basically ignore the rest of the world just like they did with Faerun and the Sword Coast!
Well done on another great video. We all want to PLAY. To have fun. (That's why Lisa Stevens named her company "PAIZO" -- 'We Play!') As such, we are ALL willing to modify and adapt our preferences and style when we're joining or starting a new gaming group. The longer we've gone without playing, the more malleable we are willing to be. So everything you're saying is "A" Okay!!!! I will never spend money on anything from Wotc -- and I explain to players *Why* so many of us refuse to support WotC. But I still play. My Pathfinder Campaign setting is different from the Paizo canon; I've made it my own and, of course, the gazillions of campaigns I've DMed have evolved the setting. That's what games do. When a new player joins my Pathfinder campaign he or she will be wiling to adjust to the little (and large) tinkering to Paizo's canon. Because we all want to PLAY. To have fun. 'Paizo'! Likewise, my Greyhawk campaign setting is quite different from Gygax (and Sargent) canon. And when I join someone else's game, I have to adjust my head-Canon. Of course I do. Absolutely. I want to play. For example, I know that D&D doesn't have guns and lasers and stupid SciFi stuff, but there are people out there that actually believe that one can have guns and lasers and stupid SciFi stuff in D&D (aka: Pathfinder -- *Real* D&D). So if I'm in a game playing with the dummies that allow guns, I adjust my Head-Canon and pretend it's a Magic Wand held by an odd Magic User. .... If you join my game and I let you know I don't use The Great Wheel cosmology and believe that Gygax made a huge blunder ludicrously separating Devils and Demons, you would adjust your Head-Canon to fit in my game's cosmology. Cuz we all want to play.
My main world for gaming has long been DragonLance and went through much the same thing when the 5e DragonLance book came out a few years ago. As I read through it I found many annoying changes. As I worked on getting the adventure ready for play in my world, I was correcting stuff that I felt was wrong on nearly every page. I would be very surprised if 2024 Greyhawk is any better.
I think your foresights about conflicting expectations are perfectly correct. I think setting changes are less of a problem than the 5e community as a whole. Don’t get me wrong-I had lots of fun playing 5e! But nowhere else did I ever encounter so many players who would “um…actually” their Dungeon Masters. The published materials seem to be held more sacred at some tables than the Dungeon Master’s title or creative function. I don’t know what to do with conventions, but regular gaming groups will have to watch out for players who are overly brand-loyal. Hasbro will continue to churn out mountains of new material, which is itself habit-forming, and they will do so in a way that relies more and more on modern technology, which can be downright addictive. All addicts care about is their “fix.” No Human Dungeon Master will be able to provide that fix at an ever-increasing rate as will Hasbro and its modern machinery. That last part may still be sci-fi at the moment-but the problem I observed at 5e tables and described above was evident more than five years ago, when I quit 5e. Now I play Dungeon Crawl Classics and other games with a lovely group who are in their 20s, 30s, and 50s. Nobody’s on any giant corporation’s “feed,” so, regardless of age or background, we all respect and honor our Judge and his creative work, including a game setting that we all view as HIS to define.
D&D specifically, and TTRPGs in general, are a perfect example of why it's extremely important to gatekeep. If gamers in the 80s and 90s has simply shut out the turbomarxists, we wouldn't have the mess that's staring us in the face.
I think moving to the online WoTC walled garden is going to be the actual split rather than the changes to Greyhawk. The game will become, those who play on D&D Beyond and those who don't.
By the way, I'd love to take a poll, is anyone REALLY going to use the "good" Orcs from the new version of the game? I have a feeling most tables will still use them as monsters and villains.
On watching lore channels and not changing your game for the cannon lore: to paraphrase a designer of Cyberpunk, once you buy the book it becomes your and you can do what you want with it. If you have an idea for a Demon cult you do not have to find a cannon one and try to make it fit in the existing lore; you can just make one up and go with it. This changes the lore of your world at your table if the character's choices have any meaning whatsoever. Even in ad&d, the mass combat rules existed so you can carve out a peice of a neighboring barony, empire, or contribute to this global battle of good and evil. The lore is not meant to be strictly followed su much as treated like a bag of mixed candy: you can just pick out all the red ones and throw the rest away.
I had this problem with 5e players already, when I took over a group as a DM in which I played as a player on Forgotten Realms. And when I introduced Greyhawk to them, the had very specific 5e ideas for their PC, which are not fitting into the world of Greyhawk. We had some discussions and they left. The new WotC edition with references to Greyhawk won't make the situation much worse imo.
I feel like as much as WOTC likes to simultaneously drag Gygax and Arneson's names through the mud as they profit off their creations, I don't have much hope for Nu-Greyhawk. I wish I could be more positive about it but I figure they'll use some placenames with a heavily sanitized version of the setting.
I think it will be sanitized by way of being empty. Their intended purpose is to provide an outline of a setting for new Dams to fill in as they wish. It’s more of a 50th anniversary tribute than it is a reboot of the setting, and I doubt they’ll put any more into it after the new DMG is published.
@@Newnodrogbob I've noticed that WOTC doesn't really do much to support settings, they just assume you'll get all your lore and info online I guess. They'll release one book/box set and then abandon it.
If Wan artist makes a painting that you really like, and then he says I'm making another one, you will be disappointed if it's not enough like the first one.
We'll see what happens, but I'm cautiously optimistic. The original setting had few updates with the intent seeming to be allowing for individual development. Greyhawk becoming as prolific a setting as, for instance, the Realms is unlikely. I suspect they'll have few, if any, updates, leaving DMs to create the story of the Flaness as they choose. That was always the draw of Greyhawk - the setting was there for your use as you see fit without interference from outside sources.
I tire of Hasbro Universal Generic System (HUGS) and their poor remakes of various settings. I'd rather stick with D&D and their settings. It just sucks that when recruiting new players, I'll have to battle with Hasbro's misconceptions. This has already been a blight upon Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Planescape, Forgotten Realms, and Dragonlance. And now, Greyhawk. Given the limp sadness of that coffee table book, I think Mystara is a future victim too. As for dealing with people who've been given these warped expectations? Be honest. I was just that when CR fans came in expecting something else. If they understand things are not as they've been told? Great. If they wanna be bratty and annoyed? Expel them. I just hope this doesn't become a consistent problem though. But, as a huge fan of Ravenloft, Spelljammer, and Planescape? It's faaaar too late for any of that. In my case, it basically has been too late for over 15 years. But, one makes due and is earnest and honest. And above all? Don't be too harsh to them starting out. Those who are fine with that will take up your offer.
There definitely will be a schism. It will split down existing lines you can already find in the game culture: people who can't seem to be bothered to look at the 50 years of materials that came before, and those who do.
The idea that *more people is always better* is worth a moment's pause. Sure, a hobby is probably going to flourish more with 100 people than 10, but is a million better than 10,000? At a certain point of popularity, your fanbase will reach a critical level where the number of bad actors who are only there to stir up shit for clicks in the New Trendy Thing get large enough that they have a real impact.
I think I’d really have to see what WotC does with the setting before guessing. Is it just a setting for the DMG, or DMG + all new modules, is Adventure League switching to it, etc.? On the hopeful side, I don’t actually see WotC really changing much. When they went FR in 4e and 5e… no one cared. Even the most dire FR folks shrugged. Living City was generic, current campaign modules set in FR are generic, Adventure League is generic, etc. If you want a good 5e FR adventure/campaign it wasn't from WotC, but a FR-based older school DM taking the iniitative and actually working in plot, adventure paths, etc. I see this even more with D&D 2024 Greyhawk. It will 100% be generic until an “old school” (say 2000-era LGH) DM uses their knowledge/experience to actually flesh it out. I was never a FR fan, but even I look at today's WotC campaign modules as utterly generic vs. even Living City modules of the early 2000s -- and we nicknamed those "Living Silly." I see two camps Greyhawk also -- those who don’t know Greyhawk will simply see it as a generic WotC Greyhawk setting and those who know it from 1e, 2e, or 3/3.5e-era. The later won’t care about anything WotC might put in, as they are at least 40+ years-old now, can ignore it, will be writing their own adventures/campaigns, and will run it in “old school” using a previous timeline, same as they do now.
I mean, 4e FR blew up in their face because of the setting changes. It's why they panicked and got Ed Greenwood and Bob Salvatore to write a way out of it for 5e.
@@z2ei I don't think 4e blew up in their faces due to FR changes. Those rules would have (and did) failed under Greyhawk, Ravenloft, or any other setting. Our group tried and barely make it through ten sessions before we looked at each other and asked "Why are we doing this?" Setting was hardly the issue. I can't imagine too many FR fans playing 4e and actually worrying about the setting. It wasn't like we said, "Gee... running 4e in Greyhawk or Arcanis would be so much better." I'll says similar things about 5e. I played AL and honestly it was so generic I can't imagine anyone playing or not playing it because it didn't meet their FR expectations. Most AL modules and campaigns only paid nods to the setting. Even back in Living City (3.5e, RGA era) it was pretty generic. Some Living Greyhawk regions had some great modules which captured their regions well, but even those were rare even the number of LGH modules published.
One of the best things about ttrpg is that you and your group can completely ignore anything you don't like about new editions, be the rules or lore. This is not something new. Even over a decade ago we ignored the new editions and changes in the setting made by Wotc or White Wolf/Onyx Path that we didn't like. This is a freedom that the hobby has and they will never take it away.
I don't think you're giving players enough credit. If people are sitting down to play 1e at a convention, they are already expecting a different experience.
I agree, the schism will be bad. All we can do as an older community is to make it quite clear what we are using, make it fun so it won't really matter what we are version we are using. It may actually bring more people into the older fold.
I certainly agree about the dissonance issues. I had stepped away from 5e for a few years, dipped my toe back in with the old PHB+1 limitation, figuring everything would be fine. And my Greyhawk-like setting ends up with a party of birdmen and walking talking humanoid dragons... I have learned you must give an exact list of allowed races and classes. On the bright side, that automatically filters out _most_ of the players that would otherwise cause me problems once the game starts.
100%. DMs need to ask themselves, do I want to not limit species/class options and pull from a huge possible pool of players OR limit species/class options and pull from a smaller subset of players. Some DMs just want players and will allow anything, other DM have a vision and look for players that want to share that same vision.
@@kasualkeith1819 That's a significant part of it. I've also found just setting _anything_ for an arbitrary (and from the outside, capricious) requirement does a lot to screen out problem players. The DM shortage means you can afford to be picky, and players that can't follow basic instructions are just not worth the hassle. Sharing the same vision is a nice bonus, but not at all gauranteed by simple limits.
@@yellingintothewind Good point. Problem players tend to come up with highly modified, complex characters - so there's a great big red flag for the DM.
@@katjordan3733 Yeah, it is both depressing and funny to read through all the 5e LFG posts with people wanting to bring their "build" to your game. Totally different mindset. Filter out all that noise, and playing with "randoms" can be lots of fun.
@@yellingintothewind We play in a game store, so it is as random as it gets. We have some people drop in for one game, others for months. If I say 'no multi-classing' the problem players sort themselves out. But I do enjoy meeting and gaming with people I don't know.
O boy at 13:12, the Pinkertons may very well get called to my house because I called Elves a 'race' and not a 'species'. I also do not use clinical terminology when I describe a Goblin's lungs getting ripped out of his body.
I think their portrayal of the setting is absolutely going to be more “inclusive” based on today’s society in an attempt not to alienate anyone one group of people from their game. But to your point in the video, I think you’ll get more people than you think who are interested in playing in your game and your setting and though I agree there will always be groups of people who play this game who’s play-styles are incompatible, I don’t personally expect a divide in the community. People just want to play D&D and have fun and I don’t know of too many people who overly care about “the world” at large, they just want fun adventures, interesting NPCs/Conflicts/Plots, plenty of agency, and the chance to feel like a bad A.
Im disappointed with WotC with thier renaming certain localities of the Greyhawk world like Blackmoor. They also could have rehired Darlene to do the map instead of altering it as they did. My overall rating of the process is a "D" but i am glad they are bringing it back to the newest generation of gamers.
Meh. The schism you speak of came years ago when post-Gygax TSR released the Greyhawk Wars and From the Ashes boxed sets, making sweeping and unwanted changes to my beloved Gold Box. I've been sulking on the sidelines ever since. It makes no difference, though... my gaming friends were all Dragonlance and Ravenloft fanboys who wouldn't give Greyhawk a first look, much less a second look. Oh well, thems the breaks... 😢
If WoTC really wanted to update Greyhawk, they cold easily expand to the west. There is scant information regarding the majority of the continent. In fact there is almost no information going south other than the Scarlet Brotherhood source book. They would have carte blanche, a clean slayer to create anything they could desire.
I can't believe the whining in the comments. I always loved the orignal Greyhawk setting. I'm about to start a campaign, and when I saw that there will be some kind of updated version in the new DMG I decided that was where I'd put my game. All published material is unreliable until it's addressed in my game. Rumors differ as they come into town about what's going on in far off Aerdy or Keoland or the north. I bought Grognard's book, but I also intend to embrace the information in the new DMG. WOTC provides products. I'm not concerned with their morality. I do think they've overhomogenized their spieces and robbed them of their flavor. But I can deal with that as I present it in game. Its actually one of the things that I appreciate about Greyhawk. I like that there are distinct human cultural traditions and languages. Will there be variations if how Greyhawk is presented, sure. But I think it'll work out.
I hold three black belts, and am an Army War Vet. Pinkerton would be fun to kick off my property one way or another. The most fun would be via police & a large lawsuit.
I dunno. I don't envision that any prospective fans of WotC's take on Greyhawk are going to be "converted" fans of Gary Gygax's. Grognard types like you and me are just going to keep on keeping on. These two separate crowds will almost never intermingle. WotC will mainly attract people who never were in "our camp" and would never want to be. As for the rare exceptions, new players who are receptive to old school legacy style D&D, they'll find their way to that material via the wider OSR movement. It happens every day.
I don't really know, to be honest. I have got rid of all my 5e stuff now apart from Yawning Portal because I dislike not only 5e, but also where WOTC have gone in recent years. I find more joy in the old classic material for a lot of reasons. But.... it was 5e that brought me back to the hobby, and I was disappointed when I came back that everything was set in this "new world" of Forgotten Realms. Having a skeleton-frame Greyhawk setting for players of the new game to populate, build and enjoy I think can only be a good thing - for them anyway, but I won't be partaking of it, and the players I tend to attract are more interested in the older stuff too, so I must admit it probably won't affect me much at all. But, this "new" Greyhawk, will one day be looked back upon as the "classic" Greyhawk, as everything gets updated and reborn etc and time moves on. Star Trek reboots: didn't like the idea, but the films are good! Rings of Power: controversial take on the Second Age - but it's beautifully made and fun to watch! Something amazing might come from it - the next G1-3 or the next T1-4! ;)
The crucial issue is that settings and world building MUST be special to justify the expense. If you lack inspiration then spewing out old stuff and pretending it is new is not a good way to justify the cost. Greyhawk is linked to Gygaxian D&D, not Hasbro 5e, and this won’t happen. Star Wars and Indiana Jones proved that new content isn’t guaranteed to make fans or even make money. If you can’t handle lawful good human kingdoms fighting each other, and orcs being evil, that complexity requires a far more delicate touch than the childish “everyone is a friend” approach that Hasbro prefers.
Did you ever allow your players to play a monster? Apparently they did it often enough at TSR, there's that section in the 1e DMG about it. I always found that section curious, and it seems monster-players didn't earn any xp or progress in level.(?) But it goes to show that this variation in campaign style was encouraged, or it was possible to earn some monsters as henchman. It strikes me the henchman system was setup to allow players variation in play including with characters that can't normally be created. All this while not bogging down the DM in rules they could easily define themselves. I find the opposing trend unfortunate in modern gaming, not that original D&D didn't succumb to it eventually (had to sell books): everything must be codified.
This is what you get for choosing to put your eggs in a basket owned by someone else. When you choose to play fanfiction in an author's world you're in the hands of that author making changes or selling the IP to other people. Anyone can make a Greyhawk, you've only yourself to blame if changes to it bother you.
The schism has long since been created. There are plenty of Greyhawk world clones out there. As for this new edition of the Official Brand, I'm not going with it for the very reasons you mentioned. I also don't bother with conventions.
If WOTC had any sense whatsoever, they'd lean into and embrace the differences between the settings as a marketing strategy. Forgotten Realms as the D&D kitchen sink; Greyhawk as the stripped back, pulpy setting; Mystara as the melting pot of real cultures and divergant weirdness; Dark Sun as the hardcore Mad Max setting etc.
But they won't, and we all know why.
I've been saying this for years. I just keep using all my TSR era stuff. The new people who are being introduced are missing out on so much stuff. It's kind of up to us to keep it circling and flowing. Modern D&D is the oatmeal of RPGs. Safe, bland (generalized medieval fantasy) and easily consumed by everyone. Matthew Colville has a great video about it. I cannot remember the title, but he starts the video asking if anyone has used the equipment list post creation, and how D&D has evolved over the editions.
I'll edit this when I find the name of the video.
Imagine if they just re-released it all with content warnings on the Ravenloft and Dark Sun stuff. It'd sell so good.
Darksun as the Barsoom setting, with a dash of Mad Max.
@@OtherDAS Just so. I keep forgetting about Barsoom because I haven't read the original John Carter books... yet.
@@Grimlore82 The best way I've ever heard it described (and sadly I don't remember who said it) was that D&D used to be Punk and Heavy Metal. Now it's Pop, and Modern Day Pop at that.
It reminds me of how I felt after Disney bought Star Wars and they threw out the EU canon. I was a BIG EU guy, I had tons of WEG RPG books, novels, reference books, I knew the EU inside and
out. So when DIsney deep sixed it, it rubbed me wrong. Now I talk to my step kids about star wars, and there is such a huge disconnect between the "new" canon and old EU/pre disney canon. And its kind of frustrating, I dont know what is relevant anymore. Theyve "borrowed" some things from the EU, repurposed them, and even that is so different... I have no idea what the kids are talking about, and they have no idea what I'm talking about lol.
That could be a problem here. I'm not sure how big of an influx Greyhawk will see. It might bring back 5E DMs who played in Greyhawk when they were younger, but I'm not sure
how interested younger DMs will be to run it as a setting. It seems to me that generationally, younger DMs/Players want very different things from their settings then what we like. So new DMs will be faced with hammering Greyhawk into a more fantastical setting vs just building their own, or going to a setting that is closer to that more fantastical anything goes kind of setting.
I could be wrong about that. I think the perception of Greyhawk could also be driven by what kind of content we see on DMsGuild. Right now the early products are being written by grognard types
who wish to remain faithful to the setting.. But who knows what we might see in a year or two? And who knows if WOTC keeps away from Greyhawk. I believe the plan is to leave it be for now.. But tomorrow is a new day, and that'll drive things too. Its a strange situation, and we'll see what happens I suppose.
Thankfully many good people, like yourself, will always keep the spirit of Greyhawk alive.
Covid got me cleaning out my gaming stuff from the 80's and I nearly tossed it. But a look around online made me want to game again, and I do. I adapted my favorite old modules to 5e, I got the Essentials Kit and the Starter set and found some willing players at a local game store and I've run games for the last 3 years. I've spent the last couple years reading, learning and adapting the Greyhawk setting. I don't know anything about the books, magazines or other cannon, Greyhawk is new to me. But I respect those who do, and I watch your videos for inspiration. (The maps and stuff I used 'back in the day' was all Judges Guild.) This coming year I'm breaking out of Forgotten Realms and into Greyhawk. My players and I are using the gold box as our template, and we are going to write our own history. Don't know how the New Edition is going to work, but I've got a table of players looking forward to Salt Marsh in January. We are gonna have a great time breathing life into the old setting.
I think comments like this show that we can all take a deep breath and realize that it will be ok. Only noobs believe everything and use everything that WOTC puts out there, there are a lot of intelligent players, both young and old.
@@danielgoldberg5357 Thank you. D&D has been around a long time and there's a lot of good material out there. Sure, WotC is a business and they have plans. So do I. I've got maps, modules and players therefore I'm gonna have a lot of fun with what I've got at hand. I collect what I can use at my table, and run my games face to face with a range of ages. I don't mind wading into an old module like Red Hand of Doom (my current project) or the 5e version of Saltmarsh if I think my players will enjoy it.
I thinnk the problem with the "New" Greyhawk vs. "Classic" Greyhawk is going to be the disclaimer. The original setting had lots of countries and places that weren't at all "Nice" and they were inhabited by people who weren't at all "Nice" either (the Pomarj and the great kingdom spring to mind)...there's no way to polish that up or sanitize that and make it "Not Evil"...and these days the very concept of "Evil" upsets people, who seem to want to believe that somehow every Orc and Bugbear is just misunderstood and that the king who makes deals with demons and devils is just "Misguided"...NO!!!
@@danielpasilis4046 Nope. The orcs know what they're doing or they wouldn't be evil.
Iuz the Misunderstood
😂
Tharizdun the Oppressed GOC
😂
Lolth, Goddess of Anti-Patriarchy Elves
😂
Iggwilv, Environmentalist Preserver
😂
I wish they would do the Harn style where they keep the current timeline and add new details to greyhawk to build onto the setting
As someone that has used various official settings over the years, I can say from first hand experiance that the official setting is largely only something that the dm cares about. You are going to get confusion if they come to the table with a Henn character and halflings do not have The Denial in this setting or something, but players almost never care as they are there to play an rpg, not give the dm an open book quiz on the setting. If you decide you do not have fey in your game, players rarly push back unless they came for a fey themed game. The table's continuity is more important than the setting; that is what players notice more than anything.
The "schism" in Greyhawk would happen if you had two dm's running the same campaign out of the same book. The "scaflting" model causes this by its nature as the vague wording on x page causes the first dm to beleive the official setting has the Demon x-icus to have a cult in y region while the second dm interpreted that page on as rumor and there are no stats for the Demon x-icus, so it must not exist at all. Continuity was not great at TSR even with the same authors and artists being involved, and a lot of things are ret-coned and changed even in the 70's and 80's.
I'm a younger player who learned from 1e players and has read some of Gygax's novels, I play 5e but am overall a bigger fan of OSR and Grayhawk is one of my favorite settings. I thank part of what makes Grayhawk a good setting is the fact that so much of its lore was developed out of actual game sessions and I can't help but feel an instinct that something like that will happen here (eventually). Having also watched a similar thing happen in the Warhammer fandom (increasing corporatizaiton of an IP) I think that people will just have to create spaces where they can continue to keep a version of what really matters to them alive because ultimately these settings are, to the people who enjoy them, are an idea more important than just a trademark that a company can own and control, someday our laws might even reflect this fact.
Greyhawk DMs: They're changing our setting!
Forgotten Realms DMs: First time?
"I reject your canon, and substitute my own" is a phrase I've been applying to just about everything made over the last 15+ years.
I recently got into greyhawk because I heard the new Dm's guide had a chapter for the setting. It made me go back and research a lot of the old material. I would love to play a classic version of greyhawk; it's refreshingly down to earth and truly feels medieval. I think the main difference will be players expecting to be able to play monsterous races. I want to start a campaign in Furyondy that eventually leads to a City of Skulls inspired adventure in Dorakaa. Tieflings and Orc characters would just look like the enemy. Depending on what my player's want, I might make some tiefling aristocrats in Chendl or make the Barony of Littleberg have an Orc ruler, so these races become more commonly accepted by the people. I think most new players introduced to Greyhawk would be fine if you said that some character options don't fit particularly well in Greyhawk; you would just have to discuss it beforehand.
A bit of disclaimer upfront. I'm a 5e player who got into spelljammer and wants to get into mystara. From my "layman's" perspective, I feel like the best approach to this kind of thing is to get them hooked on the pre-existing lore. Use it as hype so that when they do get into it, they fall in love with a slightly modified version of it, but mostly the same. My campaign setting was already homebrew to hell in back, but I have had fun tossing spelljammer's lore into the cooking pot. I feel like old spelljammer lore beats out the watered down product wotc gave us and part of the old lore made into my setting. Heck, this channel has lore videos, so I think that's the perfect nerd gateway into the setting
I don't understand the issue. I use Greyhawk as a homebrew setting based on the boxed set I bought around 1984. I just introduce it to new players as "my" Greyhawk campaign setting and my lore is canon at my table. Everyone is happy with that, it becomes their setting and there are no experts at the table harping on about the official canon and objecting to the events happening in our shared campaign. It's really easy.
I agree with your sentiments. I play mostly with my children, but a couple of them are far less of a grognard than I am. I feel the pressure at the kitchen table sometimes, I can't imagine what cons would be like.
As a long suffering Star Frontiers fan you have my sympathy.
Just started buying it again as a POD!
Translation: it's gonna suck, and you'll get called every name in the book for not liking it.
Absolutely no one is going to shit on you for liking the older editions. Only older people are shitting on other people for liking things because it's the only way for the talentless to get views.
Well, considering what they did to Ravenloft and Dragonlance I am actually glad that my favorite setting (Birthright) is just too obscure to be worthy of WotC's "attention".
Can you imagine this? A fan actually happy that his favorite thing is NOT getting new products and development?
Hard times.
I SWEAR, if I ever win the lottery I'm buying Dungeons and Dragons and straightening this crap out!!! 😁
You and me both.
I’m in!!!
Good video. Sounds like they are going to do a "Disney Star Wars" on Greyhawk.
I think if you are running an older edition of D&D most reasonable people will expect that you are using the world as established in that edition. That's my experience with running D6 Star Wars in the modern day. You let folks know that pre-Disney is your canon and they usually just nod and go with it.
However, if you are doing the new edition of D&D, they will expect the new lore. You'll have a schism in the way that "old Star Wars" and "new Star Wars" are divided. You have the added disadvantage of there being a popular modern RPG to skew expectations. However, I think that as long as you manage expectations going in and are clear about edition and lore you probably won't have too many problems.
I always enjoy your videos. Thank you for the great content.
Keep Greyhwak, as Greyhawk. Keep monsters as monsters. Keep good and evil, not everything as morally ambiguous.
As someone who played a tiny bit in 3.5 and really got started in 5e, I prefer to use paper resources at my table, and I do pretty in depth research to any DnD elements in my game, I like DnD specifically because of it's history.
I am a Greyhawk DM since... forever, somehow. It was around 1989, 1990 (I was 15) when I first started playing and then running D&D, 2e was brand new. I was looking for a setting and the guy in our local hobby shop showed me the options I had. Forgotten Realms, Mystara/Known World (and Basic), Dragonlance. Greyhawk Adventures had recently launched/arrived (american stuff took a while to get across the Atlantic), the Gold Box was not available, but City of Greyhawk was on the shelf. Orange spines everywhere and the 2e black spines were growing in number. As I live in Germany, 1e had just launched in German (it took a while...) and the Basic Boxes in German were not completely outdated, but the New and Easy to Master and Rules Cyclopedia would be launched not far in the future...
I got the Greyhawk Adventures book and the City Box for Christmas, and started reading. I had the local/regional maps of the city's area, but not much more, only a few hints about the Gods (incl. Pholtus, but not Pelor...) and no other informations, so I had to make up my own Greyhawk. When I got a Gold Box later, I noticed how different my own Greyhawk had become and my people would take a moment if I sent them to the official setting. Similar to Greg Staffords saying: "Your Oerth will be different".
I do not have the new DMG yet and I cannot say how different it is from Gygaxian, 2e FtA-Greyhawk, Early WotC Greyhawk or 3e Living Greyhawk... A do not like 5e very much and I only have the Core Rules and the Essentials Box, and the new 2024 PHB. Maybe I will buy one next month, it has no real priority for me. My campaign runs on Oe (incl. Greyhawk, Blackmoor and Eldritch Wizardry) atm, and my players like this more than AD&D, even though I use the MM (I hate searching for the monsters through 4 booklets/PDFs...)
Every new DM adopting Oerth will make it their own. As Gary stated, when groups start their own games, Oerth or whatever world becomes their own. My Oerth is humancentric, but has independently working Orc (and whatever) tribes with their own plans, clan structures etc. They are not just evil forces pawns or mooks for a random Big Baddy, they are intelligent enemies to reckon with. Kobolds are doglike, the Great Kingdom is a not so great place to un-live and the Greyhawk Wars took an all different path, stopping Iuz invasion between Riftcraig, the Tangles and Stoink. That were many intense sessions of Grewhawk Wars strategy gaminge back then ;) But my talented players almost botched all the adventures of Fate of Istus :D So yes, this Greyhawk is Something Completely Different and there are Rodents of Extraordinary Size... Ever tried to stop a cult of Kyuss by the usage of Burburs? Good luck :D
What I want to say: There is hope. Not all young people will make Oerth a purplehaired-unicorn/orc-princess realm with barristas baking cake in their Bastion is the most challenging quest (sarcasm, I am queer myself, but overacting some of the OSR/Grognard crowd I am a part of myself of - we have to rethink ourselves sometimes).
My daughter and her players (a group of up to 10 folks, 15 to 22 yo; I introduced most of them to 1e a few years ago) honor old school/classic/traditional gaming, they value the work of others. But they do not want a sweet fairy realm of Icing and Fondant, they love their realms grimdark, gritty and wild. They love levers, teleporters, portcullies, random encounters, hex crawls and practical riddles. (But no math or geometry please ;) ) And they are just as weird and random as I and my players have been in the early 90s. She just borrowed my copy of Tomb of Horrors 2 weeks ago, so there is hope... Or I hope so ;)
Bud, the fact that we modern audiences have such short attention spans, in general, will be a barrier to getting into the deeper lore. However, I think that you are correct. I do hope that the introduction will lead people to look into the setting with some more depth. I think you, Jay and the fellows in the "Grayhawk Online" community are, and have been, good shepherds of the property and that some younger people will find all of that work eventually though the new introduction.
However, in the long run. it is up to the GMs that are running the game as to how they want to utilize the materials. If people add to the setting that should be a good thing because they are, as Gary put it, "making it their own". Right? And you. Mr. Bloch. as a GM. can pick and choose what you use for your games as well. I don't think looking for homogeneity or orthodoxy will serve the growth of the setting.
I could be very wrong, but I believe the community will survive the diverse outlooks and that the contributions will be incorporated on an individual campaign basis. I know that I love hearing stories about how this or that adventure played out in my fellow gamers campaigns. Those are not my games but they can spark new ideas for my own version of the setting and may give it more depth and interest.
That being said,, I want to thank you very much for your thoughts and I appreciate you and all you do to keep Greyhawk alive.
There will absolutely be a schism! WotC has never wanted to pursue the Greyhawk setting and, imho, are absolutely mortified at the osr community and those who have reverted to earlier edition games for not worshipping at the feet of 5e. Never mind the vast disgust at their actions regarding the ogl and now One D&D or whatever they are calling it.
This feels to me, and I won't be providing them any monetary gain by buying their tripe, like a last ditch effort to remove any influence E.G.G. and any of the early gaming community has on what they see as "their" property. I have never understood the need to make every monster race a viable PC class and have seen the institution of most of the changes in 5E geared toward the "video game" generation. "Look, you can play online on our for profit web platform! You can create an overpowered character whose race, (pardon me - background), doesn't have to match the setting, can never die and your DM is required to cater to every silly whim you have because D&D is not a game per se, it is a collaborative story which centers around your awesomeness."
I only speak for myself, but I am firmly in the "old" Greyhawk camp. I hope I am wrong but WotC track record is not good.
Old Greyhawk is the only Greyhawk. Anything else is an obscene skin suit...
@@Gangrel442003 I agree and the ONLY acceptable rule set is 1e.
@@sebbonxxsebbon6824 I was a second edition man when I got into dungeons & dragons, but I respect your opinion.
They absolutely butchered Ravenloft, so prepare yourselves for the worst. I hope they have learned but seriously doubt it
And the same to Dragonlance. Awful!
@@DarkAutumnScribe Spelljammer was incredibly half-baked, too. I'm convinced that April Fools joke blew up in their face and they gave a bunch of interns six months to put out a book to save PR. It was so lacking that my 5e-only friend went back to scour the 2e stuff for actual content.
I'm trying not to buy the FR book they have planned to come out next year. As for the other settings I've been spending time trying to work forward a amount of time appropriate from their last real update around 3.5/4e so that it matches where the realms are at. For Tavenloft I've been trying to work on the time of unparalleled darkness. Basically the defenses around all the domains fail and the monsters are unbidden to remain where they are, somewhat like Castlvania and its night creatures.
I seriously recommend folks grab a copy of a TSR era setting and use whatever system you prefer. Ravenloft works very well with Dungeon Crawl Classics, for example. The dangerous nature of magic in the setting meshes extremely well with the magical corruption mechanics of DCC.
The "butchering" of Ravenloft resulted in massive sales of their new book.
Butchering is an opinion, and you are welcome to have it, but they get to do whatever they want with whatever they own, and as long as it results in sales, they aren't going to change their process.
I am absolutely not a grognard and look upon any pre-5e mechanic with dread
But I fell in love with 2e Planescape setting and so far no post-2e material on it made me want to add it in my games
You're my go-to source of Greyhawk info as a newer DM of only 10 years in the hobby. From novel and adventure recommendations, etc.
I don't need WoTC for anything TTRPG related at all.
There's a lot of good material out there. Wotc is merely one of many.
I enjoy all of Greyhawk Grognard videos 🎉🎉😂😊
As an older player I find it exciting to breath new life into greyhawk. I personally prefer main book races and classes unless it's campaign specific but I feel the new races in the main book can easily just be part of the setting.
As an example tieflings seem like they would be pretty common in the empire of iuz. Dragonborn living remnants of an ancient dragon conflict.
Adapt your story. Issues with game mechanics is understandable ( not a fan of going to sleep and waking up full health) but setting is the DM responsibility to shape
I'm going the opposite direction, I had to take over DMing a 5e group and I'm taking them back to Mystara (specifically Karameikos). The power of that Gazetteer cover art is undeniable!
I don't disagree that there will be a bi-forcation but I think it will be for different reasons. As someone who works with teens, I do not see this new generation being as particular as our generation. They are less committed to preserving well, anything. Their world changes with every new Tik Tik. The digital age has shaped their expectations for immediate gratification. My teen players are less patient with lengthy lore exposition or complex worldbuilding. We are the "well actually.." generation and they are the "My character leaps over the ....oh look a new shiny." generation. They prioritize the immediate, immersive experience of the game over lore. In my experience they're drawn to the mechanics, character creation, and the social aspect of playing with friends. All that to say, there will never be another generation like our no matter how hard we try to recreate it. I'll welcome these new in players to the hobby and take them to The Village of Hommlet, and maybe on a few of your adventures, and see where they want to go from them. Keep up the good work of keeping Greyhawk alive for all the generations.
Part of what you are noticing is because only a tiny fraction of our generation was into the hobby in the first place. Certainly there’s some generational differences in attitude, but what you describe about enjoying the game play and social interaction more than the lore has much more to do with the widening of the audience than their youth, imho.
I’m a younger person, I’m in my 20s, please don’t generalize people as so stupid and beneath you, it’s dehumanizing. We aren’t brain dead just because we’re younger.
That said I’m a fan of old school, but I just like trying all sorts of stuff. I’m running 1e Gamma World for a group atm.
At the end of the day, it’s just a game. If people are having fun, who cares how they have it?
Bracing myself for this DMG release to drop more bombshell canonical changes: Tenser will now be half tiefling, the Suel / Baklunish / Oeridian pantheons will be combined into a single family of Greyhawk deities, and Grazzt will refer to himself as an arch fiend. 😂
It wil be the difference between Tolkein's LOTR and Amazon's LOTR. Fans will have sides, WoTC will treat old D&D fans like crap, and it will amble on in this manner. The original Greyhawk community is seasoned enough to embrace new like minded friends and politely reject the "modern" audience conformist homogenized corpo product that doesn't pass the authenticity sniff test. Regardless, let's keep building the OG tribe with dignity and good intent! WotC owns a license not the hobby.
I'm not certain that alterations haven't been made to the "older" materials that they're re-offering, since all of us "Grognards" already have those materials. I suspect changes have been made for the new Gamers that are going to be buying those books. And I have no intention of buying them just to find out.
I will always be a first edition gamer. Greyhawk , Mystara,
Forgotten Realms or worlds I create on my own. Second edition is a possibility but no further. Carry on Grognard. You are greatly appreciated.
Sounds like DMs will do, what many did after the WoG box came out, we made our home brew pretty soon after and bought things if we wanted to or not. So nothing really changed. And this is from me who bought every book, box, and gazeteer from that time, at the time.
I will not purchase the new D&D books and I will continue to play original 5th edition or any of the older editions that my players and I cut our teeth on. I will not play with the types of people that solely embrace these new editions and the absurd restrictions they want to put on GM's to spare their feelings. My players range from 50 to 22 in age and we all can play without any problems the way D&D was intended.
Back in the late 70’s early 80’s I bought the 1st edition books and lead miniatures at Toys R US. I saw all the references to Greyhawk in the books at the time but couldn’t find the setting in any of the stores around. Years later I was able to buy a used off eBay before the prices jumped up.
Settings should change the rules rules should not change the setting
Shut up. No one is taking away the ability for you to play what you want. They are just giving people more options.
0:38 greyhawk explains how time works, just in case we can't infer it
Me: this is a man who knows his audience
I don't care about what people say, orcs will always have pig faces! 🐷
"Whatever's good for Greyhawk is good...if it happens to benefit WOTC incidentally, well I can't help that." Well said!
A 'sanitized' setting and 'sanitized' content is boring. There has to be evil to fight and evil is messy. Certain game companies continue to double down on mistakes. I no longer hope they will learn from their mistakes and make content I want to buy. I am going to make and run content my players want. There's so many good products by smaller companies and individuals that I can use.
I am excited to play in Greyhawk.
I am glad to play in Forgotten Realms because, as a DM, having preset lore makes my job easier. But I know a lot of that lore is steeped in Greyhawk. What I am most interested in is where Barovia, Strahd, and Ravenloft comes from.
I understand your passion about wanting a property you care about to be handled with love and attention by the unfeeling corporation running it (Halo).
Embrace the folks coming in with new perspectives and hold onto what you care about at the same time. Our hobbies should be personal to us and should bring us a level of comfort and peace.
If new folks joining your hobby rub you the wrong way, find common ground and stand together there. It's okay to ignore the differences for a time until both parties can come to respect one another's opinions and preferences.
Wait until all the goblins are changed to very emotional he/hims with a sense of caring and compassion and an instictive trait of being family oriented and blah blah blah
Lol
Thats fine with me as long as they have side-shaved haircuts and dont have any stats that would indicate a unique biology!
I stick to AD&D 1st Edition.
The later editions mean little to me.
We have a large group of such people.
I like hearing what other people think.
I don't have to have any influence to learn from others.
WOTC means little to me.
I really want to play AD&D 1ST edition. For the original feel of the game.
I'm not just attached to the folio or the golden box material, since I'm a 2e guy. But I just consider the material released by TSR.
The current people in charge of DnD believe that orcs were a negative caricature of african americans and wanted to change things they viewed as racist. Anyone who believed that are the racist ones, which is proven by the mexican caricature of the orc artwork specifically. The new artwork design itself is full of race swaps that make no sense, like why is the grey elf queen now african american with a black afro? Grey elves have extremely pale grey skin and either gold or silver hair, not blonde or auburn, literal silver or gold.
DnD designers are trash, wish they'd keep their pandering politics out of the game.
While the bulk of my experience with _Greyhawk_ was from 3rd Edition, my understanding (or at least my personal head-canon from here-on-out) is that the "new" timeline has been reset to that of 1st Edition (perhaps to just start off "clean" without any of the later baggage), so my plan is to just study up on 1e/2e lore and apply it to the new mechanics as best as possible.
I agree with you. My kids are going to learn GH as it originally existed. Their friends are too. I have such disdain for the current ideology running WotC that I'm fine if all their work gets memory holed.
I have a sneaking suspicion that will happen.
I expect them to choose one small section of the world(Around The City of GreyhawK) and basically ignore the rest of the world just like they did with Faerun and the Sword Coast!
Well done on another great video.
We all want to PLAY. To have fun. (That's why Lisa Stevens named her company "PAIZO" -- 'We Play!') As such, we are ALL willing to modify and adapt our preferences and style when we're joining or starting a new gaming group. The longer we've gone without playing, the more malleable we are willing to be. So everything you're saying is "A" Okay!!!!
I will never spend money on anything from Wotc -- and I explain to players *Why* so many of us refuse to support WotC. But I still play.
My Pathfinder Campaign setting is different from the Paizo canon; I've made it my own and, of course, the gazillions of campaigns I've DMed have evolved the setting. That's what games do. When a new player joins my Pathfinder campaign he or she will be wiling to adjust to the little (and large) tinkering to Paizo's canon. Because we all want to PLAY. To have fun. 'Paizo'!
Likewise, my Greyhawk campaign setting is quite different from Gygax (and Sargent) canon. And when I join someone else's game, I have to adjust my head-Canon. Of course I do. Absolutely. I want to play.
For example, I know that D&D doesn't have guns and lasers and stupid SciFi stuff, but there are people out there that actually believe that one can have guns and lasers and stupid SciFi stuff in D&D (aka: Pathfinder -- *Real* D&D). So if I'm in a game playing with the dummies that allow guns, I adjust my Head-Canon and pretend it's a Magic Wand held by an odd Magic User. .... If you join my game and I let you know I don't use The Great Wheel cosmology and believe that Gygax made a huge blunder ludicrously separating Devils and Demons, you would adjust your Head-Canon to fit in my game's cosmology. Cuz we all want to play.
3e; Greyhawk being the "default" setting. And the Organized Play version of Greyhawk. We've been down this road before.
My main world for gaming has long been DragonLance and went through much the same thing when the 5e DragonLance book came out a few years ago. As I read through it I found many annoying changes. As I worked on getting the adventure ready for play in my world, I was correcting stuff that I felt was wrong on nearly every page. I would be very surprised if 2024 Greyhawk is any better.
I think your foresights about conflicting expectations are perfectly correct. I think setting changes are less of a problem than the 5e community as a whole. Don’t get me wrong-I had lots of fun playing 5e! But nowhere else did I ever encounter so many players who would “um…actually” their Dungeon Masters. The published materials seem to be held more sacred at some tables than the Dungeon Master’s title or creative function. I don’t know what to do with conventions, but regular gaming groups will have to watch out for players who are overly brand-loyal. Hasbro will continue to churn out mountains of new material, which is itself habit-forming, and they will do so in a way that relies more and more on modern technology, which can be downright addictive. All addicts care about is their “fix.” No Human Dungeon Master will be able to provide that fix at an ever-increasing rate as will Hasbro and its modern machinery. That last part may still be sci-fi at the moment-but the problem I observed at 5e tables and described above was evident more than five years ago, when I quit 5e. Now I play Dungeon Crawl Classics and other games with a lovely group who are in their 20s, 30s, and 50s. Nobody’s on any giant corporation’s “feed,” so, regardless of age or background, we all respect and honor our Judge and his creative work, including a game setting that we all view as HIS to define.
D&D specifically, and TTRPGs in general, are a perfect example of why it's extremely important to gatekeep. If gamers in the 80s and 90s has simply shut out the turbomarxists, we wouldn't have the mess that's staring us in the face.
If it's not by TSR, Gary, or any of his children or surviving friends who played and created in his campaign, I refuse to consider it canon.
I think moving to the online WoTC walled garden is going to be the actual split rather than the changes to Greyhawk. The game will become, those who play on D&D Beyond and those who don't.
By the way, I'd love to take a poll, is anyone REALLY going to use the "good" Orcs from the new version of the game? I have a feeling most tables will still use them as monsters and villains.
On watching lore channels and not changing your game for the cannon lore: to paraphrase a designer of Cyberpunk, once you buy the book it becomes your and you can do what you want with it. If you have an idea for a Demon cult you do not have to find a cannon one and try to make it fit in the existing lore; you can just make one up and go with it. This changes the lore of your world at your table if the character's choices have any meaning whatsoever. Even in ad&d, the mass combat rules existed so you can carve out a peice of a neighboring barony, empire, or contribute to this global battle of good and evil. The lore is not meant to be strictly followed su much as treated like a bag of mixed candy: you can just pick out all the red ones and throw the rest away.
You should do a video on how to handle players who have preconceived lore about a setting thats different from what you are running.
I had this problem with 5e players already, when I took over a group as a DM in which I played as a player on Forgotten Realms. And when I introduced Greyhawk to them, the had very specific 5e ideas for their PC, which are not fitting into the world of Greyhawk. We had some discussions and they left.
The new WotC edition with references to Greyhawk won't make the situation much worse imo.
I feel like as much as WOTC likes to simultaneously drag Gygax and Arneson's names through the mud as they profit off their creations, I don't have much hope for Nu-Greyhawk. I wish I could be more positive about it but I figure they'll use some placenames with a heavily sanitized version of the setting.
I think it will be sanitized by way of being empty. Their intended purpose is to provide an outline of a setting for new Dams to fill in as they wish. It’s more of a 50th anniversary tribute than it is a reboot of the setting, and I doubt they’ll put any more into it after the new DMG is published.
@@Newnodrogbob I've noticed that WOTC doesn't really do much to support settings, they just assume you'll get all your lore and info online I guess. They'll release one book/box set and then abandon it.
Be cordial, but always gatekeep. Kind of like being soft-spoken while carrying a big stick.
If Wan artist makes a painting that you really like, and then he says I'm making another one, you will be disappointed if it's not enough like the first one.
We'll see what happens, but I'm cautiously optimistic. The original setting had few updates with the intent seeming to be allowing for individual development. Greyhawk becoming as prolific a setting as, for instance, the Realms is unlikely. I suspect they'll have few, if any, updates, leaving DMs to create the story of the Flaness as they choose. That was always the draw of Greyhawk - the setting was there for your use as you see fit without interference from outside sources.
For me, 3.5 edition is dnd, it's when I was first introduced to the game.
I tire of Hasbro Universal Generic System (HUGS) and their poor remakes of various settings. I'd rather stick with D&D and their settings. It just sucks that when recruiting new players, I'll have to battle with Hasbro's misconceptions. This has already been a blight upon Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Planescape, Forgotten Realms, and Dragonlance. And now, Greyhawk. Given the limp sadness of that coffee table book, I think Mystara is a future victim too.
As for dealing with people who've been given these warped expectations? Be honest. I was just that when CR fans came in expecting something else. If they understand things are not as they've been told? Great. If they wanna be bratty and annoyed? Expel them. I just hope this doesn't become a consistent problem though. But, as a huge fan of Ravenloft, Spelljammer, and Planescape? It's faaaar too late for any of that. In my case, it basically has been too late for over 15 years. But, one makes due and is earnest and honest. And above all? Don't be too harsh to them starting out. Those who are fine with that will take up your offer.
I look forward to using the DMG introduction to Greyhawk as a springboard into the older Greyhawk material.
14:04 Keep To the Old Ways And Welcome Those Who Want To Be Initiated.
There definitely will be a schism. It will split down existing lines you can already find in the game culture: people who can't seem to be bothered to look at the 50 years of materials that came before, and those who do.
The idea that *more people is always better* is worth a moment's pause. Sure, a hobby is probably going to flourish more with 100 people than 10, but is a million better than 10,000? At a certain point of popularity, your fanbase will reach a critical level where the number of bad actors who are only there to stir up shit for clicks in the New Trendy Thing get large enough that they have a real impact.
I think I’d really have to see what WotC does with the setting before guessing. Is it just a setting for the DMG, or DMG + all new modules, is Adventure League switching to it, etc.?
On the hopeful side, I don’t actually see WotC really changing much. When they went FR in 4e and 5e… no one cared. Even the most dire FR folks shrugged. Living City was generic, current campaign modules set in FR are generic, Adventure League is generic, etc. If you want a good 5e FR adventure/campaign it wasn't from WotC, but a FR-based older school DM taking the iniitative and actually working in plot, adventure paths, etc. I see this even more with D&D 2024 Greyhawk. It will 100% be generic until an “old school” (say 2000-era LGH) DM uses their knowledge/experience to actually flesh it out. I was never a FR fan, but even I look at today's WotC campaign modules as utterly generic vs. even Living City modules of the early 2000s -- and we nicknamed those "Living Silly."
I see two camps Greyhawk also -- those who don’t know Greyhawk will simply see it as a generic WotC Greyhawk setting and those who know it from 1e, 2e, or 3/3.5e-era. The later won’t care about anything WotC might put in, as they are at least 40+ years-old now, can ignore it, will be writing their own adventures/campaigns, and will run it in “old school” using a previous timeline, same as they do now.
From what WotC has said, it's just an example in the DMG. They're still sticking with Forgotten Realms for modules, etc.
I mean, 4e FR blew up in their face because of the setting changes. It's why they panicked and got Ed Greenwood and Bob Salvatore to write a way out of it for 5e.
@@z2ei I don't think 4e blew up in their faces due to FR changes. Those rules would have (and did) failed under Greyhawk, Ravenloft, or any other setting. Our group tried and barely make it through ten sessions before we looked at each other and asked "Why are we doing this?" Setting was hardly the issue. I can't imagine too many FR fans playing 4e and actually worrying about the setting. It wasn't like we said, "Gee... running 4e in Greyhawk or Arcanis would be so much better."
I'll says similar things about 5e. I played AL and honestly it was so generic I can't imagine anyone playing or not playing it because it didn't meet their FR expectations. Most AL modules and campaigns only paid nods to the setting. Even back in Living City (3.5e, RGA era) it was pretty generic. Some Living Greyhawk regions had some great modules which captured their regions well, but even those were rare even the number of LGH modules published.
One of the best things about ttrpg is that you and your group can completely ignore anything you don't like about new editions, be the rules or lore.
This is not something new. Even over a decade ago we ignored the new editions and changes in the setting made by Wotc or White Wolf/Onyx Path that we didn't like.
This is a freedom that the hobby has and they will never take it away.
Any changes won’t be noticed by people like myself. I’ll just take what I see as it because WOTC are presenting it to us.
I don't think you're giving players enough credit. If people are sitting down to play 1e at a convention, they are already expecting a different experience.
I agree, the schism will be bad. All we can do as an older community is to make it quite clear what we are using, make it fun so it won't really matter what we are version we are using. It may actually bring more people into the older fold.
Run AD&D, pre 90s material, love it, and don't care for their political/ideological dnd one bit.
I certainly agree about the dissonance issues. I had stepped away from 5e for a few years, dipped my toe back in with the old PHB+1 limitation, figuring everything would be fine. And my Greyhawk-like setting ends up with a party of birdmen and walking talking humanoid dragons... I have learned you must give an exact list of allowed races and classes. On the bright side, that automatically filters out _most_ of the players that would otherwise cause me problems once the game starts.
100%. DMs need to ask themselves, do I want to not limit species/class options and pull from a huge possible pool of players OR limit species/class options and pull from a smaller subset of players. Some DMs just want players and will allow anything, other DM have a vision and look for players that want to share that same vision.
@@kasualkeith1819 That's a significant part of it. I've also found just setting _anything_ for an arbitrary (and from the outside, capricious) requirement does a lot to screen out problem players. The DM shortage means you can afford to be picky, and players that can't follow basic instructions are just not worth the hassle. Sharing the same vision is a nice bonus, but not at all gauranteed by simple limits.
@@yellingintothewind Good point. Problem players tend to come up with highly modified, complex characters - so there's a great big red flag for the DM.
@@katjordan3733 Yeah, it is both depressing and funny to read through all the 5e LFG posts with people wanting to bring their "build" to your game. Totally different mindset. Filter out all that noise, and playing with "randoms" can be lots of fun.
@@yellingintothewind We play in a game store, so it is as random as it gets. We have some people drop in for one game, others for months. If I say 'no multi-classing' the problem players sort themselves out. But I do enjoy meeting and gaming with people I don't know.
O boy at 13:12, the Pinkertons may very well get called to my house because I called Elves a 'race' and not a 'species'. I also do not use clinical terminology when I describe a Goblin's lungs getting ripped out of his body.
I think their portrayal of the setting is absolutely going to be more “inclusive” based on today’s society in an attempt not to alienate anyone one group of people from their game. But to your point in the video, I think you’ll get more people than you think who are interested in playing in your game and your setting and though I agree there will always be groups of people who play this game who’s play-styles are incompatible, I don’t personally expect a divide in the community. People just want to play D&D and have fun and I don’t know of too many people who overly care about “the world” at large, they just want fun adventures, interesting NPCs/Conflicts/Plots, plenty of agency, and the chance to feel like a bad A.
WOTC can go ahead and send their Pinkertons after me. I need the exercise.
Im disappointed with WotC with thier renaming certain localities of the Greyhawk world like Blackmoor. They also could have rehired Darlene to do the map instead of altering it as they did.
My overall rating of the process is a "D" but i am glad they are bringing it back to the newest generation of gamers.
I'm not going to give a final judgment until I see the text in the DMG myself. So far all I've seen is the map.
What did they change Blackmoor too?
@@GrognardPiper the Arneson estate owns the name
@@GrognardPiper Arn. Obviously a nod to Dave Arneson, but... sigh.
I need a shirt like that!
Everyone needs a shirt like that.
Mexican Orcs are oldschool Krugel Orcs from the Mystara-Hollow World setting. they're not new.
That doesn’t mean a feature of one of the least know settings needs to become the default
Meh. The schism you speak of came years ago when post-Gygax TSR released the Greyhawk Wars and From the Ashes boxed sets, making sweeping and unwanted changes to my beloved Gold Box. I've been sulking on the sidelines ever since. It makes no difference, though... my gaming friends were all Dragonlance and Ravenloft fanboys who wouldn't give Greyhawk a first look, much less a second look. Oh well, thems the breaks... 😢
I did actually address the precedent of FtA in the video.
If WoTC really wanted to update Greyhawk, they cold easily expand to the west.
There is scant information regarding the majority of the continent.
In fact there is almost no information going south other than the Scarlet Brotherhood source book.
They would have carte blanche, a clean slayer to create anything they could desire.
I can't believe the whining in the comments. I always loved the orignal Greyhawk setting. I'm about to start a campaign, and when I saw that there will be some kind of updated version in the new DMG I decided that was where I'd put my game.
All published material is unreliable until it's addressed in my game. Rumors differ as they come into town about what's going on in far off Aerdy or Keoland or the north. I bought Grognard's book, but I also intend to embrace the information in the new DMG.
WOTC provides products. I'm not concerned with their morality. I do think they've overhomogenized their spieces and robbed them of their flavor. But I can deal with that as I present it in game. Its actually one of the things that I appreciate about Greyhawk. I like that there are distinct human cultural traditions and languages.
Will there be variations if how Greyhawk is presented, sure. But I think it'll work out.
I hold three black belts, and am an Army War Vet.
Pinkerton would be fun to kick off my property one way or another.
The most fun would be via police & a large lawsuit.
Agreed.
I was wondering what the music you used in the open was? Sounds farmilar.
It's one of the UA-cam Studio pieces. I forget the name.
I dunno. I don't envision that any prospective fans of WotC's take on Greyhawk are going to be "converted" fans of Gary Gygax's. Grognard types like you and me are just going to keep on keeping on. These two separate crowds will almost never intermingle. WotC will mainly attract people who never were in "our camp" and would never want to be. As for the rare exceptions, new players who are receptive to old school legacy style D&D, they'll find their way to that material via the wider OSR movement. It happens every day.
13:14 "Yet"
I don't really know, to be honest. I have got rid of all my 5e stuff now apart from Yawning Portal because I dislike not only 5e, but also where WOTC have gone in recent years. I find more joy in the old classic material for a lot of reasons. But.... it was 5e that brought me back to the hobby, and I was disappointed when I came back that everything was set in this "new world" of Forgotten Realms.
Having a skeleton-frame Greyhawk setting for players of the new game to populate, build and enjoy I think can only be a good thing - for them anyway, but I won't be partaking of it, and the players I tend to attract are more interested in the older stuff too, so I must admit it probably won't affect me much at all.
But, this "new" Greyhawk, will one day be looked back upon as the "classic" Greyhawk, as everything gets updated and reborn etc and time moves on. Star Trek reboots: didn't like the idea, but the films are good! Rings of Power: controversial take on the Second Age - but it's beautifully made and fun to watch!
Something amazing might come from it - the next G1-3 or the next T1-4! ;)
The crucial issue is that settings and world building MUST be special to justify the expense. If you lack inspiration then spewing out old stuff and pretending it is new is not a good way to justify the cost.
Greyhawk is linked to Gygaxian D&D, not Hasbro 5e, and this won’t happen. Star Wars and Indiana Jones proved that new content isn’t guaranteed to make fans or even make money.
If you can’t handle lawful good human kingdoms fighting each other, and orcs being evil, that complexity requires a far more delicate touch than the childish “everyone is a friend” approach that Hasbro prefers.
Did you ever allow your players to play a monster? Apparently they did it often enough at TSR, there's that section in the 1e DMG about it. I always found that section curious, and it seems monster-players didn't earn any xp or progress in level.(?) But it goes to show that this variation in campaign style was encouraged, or it was possible to earn some monsters as henchman. It strikes me the henchman system was setup to allow players variation in play including with characters that can't normally be created. All this while not bogging down the DM in rules they could easily define themselves. I find the opposing trend unfortunate in modern gaming, not that original D&D didn't succumb to it eventually (had to sell books): everything must be codified.
This is what you get for choosing to put your eggs in a basket owned by someone else. When you choose to play fanfiction in an author's world you're in the hands of that author making changes or selling the IP to other people. Anyone can make a Greyhawk, you've only yourself to blame if changes to it bother you.
14:25 Those expectations are wrong, foolish, & misguided.
The schism has long since been created. There are plenty of Greyhawk world clones out there. As for this new edition of the Official Brand, I'm not going with it for the very reasons you mentioned. I also don't bother with conventions.