Secret papers reveal Post Office knew its court defence was false - BBC News report, 28 March 2024
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- Опубліковано 1 тра 2024
- A draft report uncovered by the BBC shows the Post Office spent £100m fighting sub-postmasters in court despite knowing its defence was untrue.
The document reveals the Post Office was shown evidence by 2017 that losses could be due to errors in the Horizon IT system or remote tampering.
But it kept arguing in the Bates v Post Office Ltd case that theft or mistakes by sub-postmasters must be to blame.
The Post Office said it would be "inappropriate" to comment.
More details on this story. -
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68663750
BBC News coverage about the Post Office Scandal -www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c95...
The Deloitte draft 'Bramble' report is available on the Post Office Inquiry website - www.postofficehorizoninquiry.... - Спорт
If they get away with this, it will be a bigger scandal than the scandal itself
but its going on today; all big business does this and gets away with it . Its called power and control.
True. They won’t though. Prison sentences are inevitable.
@@composedlight6850correct. Vehement censorship of vaccine harm and lockdown destruction is rife but will burst like the postmasters scandal and may even surpass it.
If they knew that and sent people to jail , they now should be in jail along with a massive compensation payout.
Look at my comment.
I have studied law and legal services for some 12 years.
Lawyers are like MP's, OBE the ruke of law.
If they knew that, and let people repay it with their last £. If they knew it and knew people committed suicide. Clearly a case for wrongful death.
'Post Office Scandal' - it's gone way past being just a scandal - the people responsible should be facing criminal charges.
The lawyers who prosecuted the cases on false information should be jailed for perjury.
Lawyers act on information available. They don’t invent it. The people responsible are those who provided and/or WITHHELD information.
I agreeThere should be something directed at the legal personnel. The lawyers often wash their hands, but there could be a case of negligence if they knew more than they were letting on.
Lawyers act on behalf of their clients. In this case the post office. Post Office were dishonest, kept the truth from their lawyers, so you cannot blame the Lawyers.
Sorry, lawyers are culpable if they don’t uphold their own professional standards. They had a duty to pipe up when they realised things were not being done correctly at the PO
The lawyers either had no information, just the word of the Post Office; or they just set the documents aside in order to defend those elites running things. 😳🤨
If this was Japan, the leadership and perpetrators would be publicly paraded and disgraced, stripped of everything. But what do we see, sloping shoulders and blaming others.
"Sorry".... "So, can I go now ?"
We need to be more like Japan in this country
Clearly you know nothing about the amount of fraud that is covered up in Japanese corporate culture.
The fear of embarrassing a superior is huge
So, "WHO", is going to be held to account for this miscarriage of justice?
Don't hold your breath ...
NO ONE. According to the judiciary and the press this is the biggest injustice ever. Alas the kiddie fiddling judiciary has a short memory on saville.
the good and the great been well rewarded and aready found people to punish for proffit .it got tory all over it even the pm is partnered with fijitsu
Look at my comment
No one. They'll walk because they're establishment.
@@hecateswolf6007 Sadly, you're probably right. If lying in the 2018-19 court case doesn't trigger criminal prosecutions for perjury, withholding evidence, contempt etc, nothing will. The inquiry is just a vehicle to kick the can down the road long enough for everyone to forget the whole thing, or die. When the inquiry was launched in 2020 (four years ago for goodness sake!) the minister originally announced its scope would not involve any reference to the Post Office Ltd prosecution function - the very heart of the matter. That tells you all you need to know. Vennells, VDB and chums will walk away from this like Blair walked away from Chilcot.
HOW MANY MILLIONS IS THE POST OFFICE MANAGEMENT SPENDING ON THIS DEBACLE OF THEIR LIES AND EXAGERATIONS !!
Paula vennels authorised £133,000 in legal fee's to reclaim a false £24,000 sortfall ' this is how they rolled ............
Please don’t SHOUT at us.
Taxpayer's money to fix the corruption caused by Fujitsu and POL managers from 1994 till now.
The govt should be locking up bank accounts and asset's pasports car's etc of those involved in this massive fraud of the taxpayer and innocent victims. Until they are processed by the court's .
The Serious Fraud Office should have been onto to this years ago.
This is the biggest fraud ever the cost's to the taxpayer will exceed £1 billion pounds . The cost of 2 enquiries fraufulant use of taxpayer money to hirer expensive lawyer's who also give back that £100 million pounds for conspiring to defraud innocent victims.
This is a legal juggernaut, that will flatten the British bureaucracy! To openly, repeatedly, lie and spend the taxpayers funds to do it. All the while, earning a salary and avoiding responsibility. GRRR🤬🤬🤬🤬
Tony blair was told in 1998 that horizon was faulty by Mr mulligan .filmed evidence of this .how does Teflon blair get off again
Because Blair will have told his minister(s) to dig in and report back. If those at PO were being dishonest and withholding information then how would Blair know different?
@michaelgoode9555 so boris and ed davy go scot free. I'm old fashioned but I think someone should take responsibility
The same way he got away with war crimes
Even back in 1994 multiple faullts were identified in the ICL Horizon program which Fujitsu inherited as they purchased ICL.
Apologies are not enough. Absolutely disgusting how the PO treated their staff.
No hint of the RETURN of SELF GIVEN BONUSES OR OVER INFLATED PENSIONS !!
Deeply sorry for being found out! that's all...
Bosses must go to jail!!
Totally agree but they won't. More chance of sleeping with the pope
Those who made these decisions to spend £100 million on defending lies and fraud pay up
Defrauding post masters/mistresses.
Who signed off on the £100 million go to jail.
Pay up with everything you have just like the innocent posties had to.
Vennells
it was a rishi sunnak the same sunnak that partnered with fijitsu.you know the unelected criminal with got squating in no 10
Look at my comment.
All CEO's are only as good as those who advise them, which appears to have been crooked lawyers who were paid to deceive.
This is not to say the executives did no wrong!
vennels is at the top of the pile who should be financely stripped of any gains made in this scandle , Bonus's Ect ..............
Notice that no politicians or civil servants are on the line.
Similarly with judges.
Why isn't Starmer in the hot seat?
There has to be some kind of personal financial sentence here. They used public money to prosecute false allegations, public money to imprison innocent people and public money will be used to pay for compensations.
That money needs clawing back from the bosses pensions, assets, bank accounts ect.
Read my comment to understand why layers have no morals or ethics.
I agree!!!
The lawyers advised the executives, therefore, the profrsdional negligence is indisputable. The lawyers have professional negligence insurance, thus we the public could fund nothing, let the insurance companies indemnify us.
If it proves that the lawyers had no insurance, then sue them, let them suffer the same as their victimes loosing everything.
If it proves that liability rests upon the executives, then sue them, and take them to the cleaners.
Then we the public should take up any shortfall on the pledge that arms length regulation of any public body is outlawed.
Why is the post office getting their fees paid from taxpayer funding when the postmaster/mistresses are having to pay their own fees. Should be the other way round imo. The PO is a business and the court case should be paid for by it. Claw back all those 'bonuses' falsely paid to those vile people who lied and perverted the course of justice. They should forever feel ashamed for accepting the money while defiling the names and reputations of all those spm's
The Post Office DID pay its own fees, or rather its owner did. The Post office has one single shareholder - the UK government. Therefore the money used was taxpayers' money.
I am gobsmacked that such a mob of sociopaths was ever allowed to run Post Office Limited.
They were meant to buy out small branches, paying 2 years salary, if they wanted them shut down. But didn't have to do that if they suspended then sacked them. Angela van den Bogerd's testimony was that she got paid bonuses if a branch they wanted shut was closed this way. And any money recovered from the 'thefts' would become post office profits after 2 years. Also giving her and higher ups bonuses.
Where are all the Fujitsu staff that were altering the figures??
I too would like to know that as move that just a couple of people were involved.
Name and shame everyone there that read this report.
But “ they don’t recall” or “don’t remember” 🤬🤬🤬
It was him her not me.I know nothink like sgt Shultz.
Send them all off to the Eastern front in the Ukraine here them all begging for Merci .
All those bonusses paid out to the management should be paid back.
They should all be made to go out to each and every single one of the people affected by it and apologize once a year as well as stand in the middle of the towns asking for forgiveness from everyone in the villages
And then the goverment should man up and write a more or less blank check to reimburse the families
Apparently Vennells alone had £2 million in bonuses never mind all the other liars within that totally corrupt outfit. All this AND MORE has to be repaid and those at the top MUST serve jail time. Don’t hold your breath.
@bazzakrak : dont forget it apeers the bonus's were paid out of the stolen sub/pm's savings' that also is being looked at ..............
These people need to go to jail
STOP REPEATING MEANINGLESS APOLOGIES !! Repeating lies do not make them right.
These people are shameless criminals ....
Why did they not disclose this report to the defence as the were required to do. Surely heads must roll for this
Britains jails need a few new guests
NOT ONE PENNY SHOULD COME FROM THE PUBLIC PURSE. FUJITSU AND INDIVIDUAL PERPETRATORS SHOULD PAY UP.
Disgrace, Unbelievable!!!!!
This is a scandal that just gets worse with each passing day.
Everything depends on the people of the British isles getting together and getting a written notice of intent to formally charge through a group lawsuit the whole of the postoffice and Fujitsu, and all of parliament and the house of lords. Make sure everyone gets a notice of intent and then see what happens. Just a thought from someone who cares here in New Zealand ❤.
Read my comment.
Be aware, the Crown Prosecution has the powers to intervene in any private action, can take over, can do so to cover up.
@@MartynHarris-gb1gg : many make comments here without understanding Uk law & how it works .............
Malfeasance all over this one.
Many will go to prison.
No need for an inquiry then prosecutions. Just go immediately for the obvious prosecutions.
I never understand how people who know you and are friends can believe that you are a thief. I will never understand that. So awful
when you got the p.o putting your face in every local paper to stir shit up for to support the brand .every one new in the local area's there was no where safe for the innacent to hide .P.O. made sure of it .and the bbc said shit for 14 year's.
But you are looking at this from a hindsight perspective. In an alternative reality, the post office did nothing wrong and it is in fact being blamed as part of some nationwide scam. Now this is a sort on the nose "what-if". In reality, do you really know your friends? Your neighbours? You think you do, but there are enough people in the world who have been backstabbed who exhibit trust issues, so when they hear its happening again to them, what are they going to believe? That thier neighbour/friend has stolen from them or there is a nationwide corporate coverup, that wont be made clear until a decade or more later?
No one seems to question laws which allow corporations to jail people “privately”.
Holdovers from an aristocratic society which is still tolerated by the peasants.
Right so!
Surely this is perverting the course of justice therefore, someone needs to be held account and prosecuted?!
Abolish the post office NOW !
Seems the BBC is the last to pick up the story..
To busy covering up for nhs Southampton paedos like Saville and the judiciary
Seems like you're incorrect. BBC regional news across the country started reporting on this from 2011 onwards, BBC main channels coverage started in 2014 , including Panorama documentaries in 2015 and 2020. BBC Radio 4 did extensive coverage throughout, including the brilliant 21 episode "The Great Post Office Trial" in 2020, presented by Nick Wallis. He also worked for the BBC on some of the preceding TV coverage, and he of course is the journalist who did more than any other over the last decade or more to expose this.
@@Denali1600 Don't worry...probably another culture warrior determined to have a dig at the BBC at every opportunity.
Par for the course as contrary to😊some peoples beliefs the B.B.C. is an out and out Tory news channel as you only need to Question Time with right wing Bruce and Kunsberg on a Sunday to see their blatant bias?😢😮😅😊
There is no question in my mind as to the proven guilt of all the senior members of the Post Office throughout the last twenty years and also the same at Horizon or Fituski or whoever must be held to account and be taken to court for their corporate responsibility in sending innocent Sub Postmasters to Court, Bankruptcy, even deaths and most of all, having their names together with their families reputation slandered. There are no post offices in many villages now as they were closed down by the fraudulent Senior Members of the Post Office who shut them down and put the Sub Postmasters out of work purely through their lies. Every single one must pay and serve a minimum sentence of 10 years for the evil ways. They are lying under oath. They even still lie when saying they can’t recall anything which may harm their reputation and personal ego.
This revelation exposes that the executives of the PO were used as tools by lawyers for financial gain.
It is incumbent upon lawyers to not persue prosecution knowing the persued could be innocent.
Admittingky, the PO executives may have known about the victimes innocence, but PO lawyers did, and thus the the law defines the buck stops with them.
Read my comment as this coukd place another aspect.
Now lawyers have negligence insurance, and this evidence is compendious lawyers acted negligently.
Will those responsible go to prison?
Why is it still a public inquiry and not a criminal inquiry?
Well the lawyers need sticking off and arresting as well knowingly sending people to prison.
Jarnail Singh, for _decades_ the POL criminal lawyer, at the inquiry today claimed over and over, "I was just the postbox, I knew nussink, nussink!" It was plainly exasperating for Jason Beer. The other main lawyer at POL has been resigning posts _en masse_ over the last couple of days.
The'll truly be sorry once they are behind bars.
It is so pathetic what these people did. They knew the system didn't work, but they were more interested in saving face and who cares what happens to the commoners?
Led by a priest who wasnt a paedo
A narcissistic fraudster.
But in fairness this goes right back to 1994 when it was identified that the Horizon system had flaws by the time it was rolled out in 1999 its flaws hadn't been fixed the POL knew this and started prosecutions in 1999 lying then about Horizon faults.
Fujitsu also knew but helped in the coverup for their own benefit picking up £billions of govt contracts knowing if faults were exposed in Horizon they would not get those contract's FRAUD that is.
Between all those in POL Fujitsu jail time plus bankrupt the lot put Fujitsu under govt management take all contract's off them and Jail those responsible including those in Japan who would have known everything as this is how Japanese companies work in Japan whistleblowers are Jailed and corporate corruption continues. Yakusa control.
People need to be jailed for this. It was fraudulent, malicious, and libellous. It was also criminal perjury. Every solicitor that represented the Post Office should be disbarred and the people in management who made the decision to perpetrate this fraud need to be named, shamed, and jailed. This is not a scandal. It is a debacle and HM government needs to act firmly if any faith in the judicial system is to be retained.
There are two issues that seem to be in my mind about this scandal. 1. WHY did the Post Office / Fujitsu do what they did? (i.e. change accounts in the first place). 2. Since Vennells is this generation's Jimmy Saville should we not look at her mental state to ascertain why she was so deranged and cruel when ordering the persecutions. She's like the judge in Salem - he was batshit crazy in his pursuit of witches. Vennells is exactly the same. To restore public faith (and I am sure everyone involved in this mayhem will wholeheartedly agree), a range of senior execs (including Paula) need go to prison and pick up the soap for Bubba and like Carrick and Cozens (corrupt and perverted public officials) they need to lose a considerable proportion of their pensions after sentencing. Saying sorry when you conspire to persecute innocent people is simply not enough. So some lengthy jail terms better be coming up. After all as Michael Biehl, in Aliens, says 's only fair'.
Grenfell no one from saint goblin has gone to jail and never will.
I'm confused. Where did the money go?
Will the string of ministers responsible for the Post Office be questioned about what they knew? This is especially true when the computer magazine PC published an article about this affair a decade before the crime became public, and the magazine Private Eye had also published numerous articles over the years.
The ministers would have had that knowledge presented to them.
This is a very dark stain on a government that has dozens of dark stains to its name.
the plan was to know now you been spoken to and avoid looking it make things worst .leave no paper trail as vander burg and paule vennals mentioned in their notes and pretend to be as stupid as a borris.
A poignant question.
Read my comment to understand the legal services are like the PO, totalitarian and oligarchic, because no authority regulates the regulator, and public agencies are overseen at arms length, which is facism.
Democracy demands Government Agencies are hands on overseen, hence the relevent Minister claim of arms length is an afront to the public's best interests.
@@MartynHarris-gb1gg@MartynHarris-gb1gg In Australia, every state has an independent anti-corruption commission with the powers of a royal commission. Does such a body exist in Britain?
Yes, His Majesty's Givernment and its Cabinet.
Subpostmaster's accounts were changed to create false accounting in the Fujitsu "boiler room" to benefit the Post Office. We only have to consider who benefitted to see the culprits.
Why do the lawyers get paid first with the scraps going to those who were falsely accused and convicted? If the lawyers must be paid before the sub postmaster, why not have separate funds to pay each of the parties in full?
Perhaps I've missed something, but has it ever been explained why Fujitsu staff were remotely accessing the sub-postmasters accounts, what they were actually changing and for what purpose. Whose idea was it to remotely alter the accounts? Someone must have ordered it, because I can't imagine junior staff doing it alone.
HOW MUCH ???? ,,, Well who and when will be paying this money back the tax payer ,,,, Surely the PO execs are going to jail
The lies went right through the whole Post Office from low ranking managers to lawyers and directors 🤬
Jail the Guilty , not the innocent victims of Corporate
corruption .
Isn’t this essentially serial perjury on the PO behalf? And withholding evidence, violating disclosure; and demonstrating they are not qualified in any way to prosecute people on their own behalf.
The victims should be GIVEN the Post Office business, for them to run, it should have never been sold in the first place but handed to the people who work for them. Disgraceful that they had no money left for themselves, just goes to show that the legal system is greedy & has very little compassion for victims & the poor. Greed should be seen as a severe mental illness. Fujitsu should pay all cost including the hundred million it's cost us to reveal a truly dodgy company.
The reason why it's so expensive to do anything with the post office has 100 million reasons.....
Prison is looking too kind for this gang of thugs
Dear BBC - Who is going to jail?
And how convenient,that many many small post offices,up and down the country, were closed. And just at a time when the governments at the time wanted just that to happen. How surprising…
The current postmasters should be recording all their input into the system, they need witnesses.
Here is a cunning plan: 1) Sub-postmistress Ms Misra got jailed pregnant and had to wear a home detention ankle bracelet when giving birth. The plan: Vennels, Perkins, Van Den Bogerd, Singh etc should also be home detained and wear an ankle bracelet until they face criminal trials. 2) Ms Misra has had no compensation for 13 years. The government appointed compensation panel offered the victims just 15% of their claims. At the same time, the government approved within a few days and paid Post Office CEOs thousands of pounds just for attending the public inquiry. The plan: the government should set up a bonus scheme with the victims to pay them bonuses for participating in or watching the hearing which would also take just a few days. 3) The Tory party claims that their concern is that tax payer's money must be spent wisely, while spending £100 million pounds on lawyers to prosecute innocent 'little people' and delaying fair compensation. The plan: maybe not to vote for a government that privatises trusted public services to finance tax cuts for wealthy people they went to university with.
BBC complicit. Only taken them 20 years to report this, didnt want to know before.
I know I'm not a legal expert but to my mind if some one was found guilty of false accounting and it has now emerged that a third party was in truth responsible and that their false evidence had been key to the prosecution it looks the definition of perverting the course of justice and as this was agreed within a group of people a criminal conspiracy took place. The initial false accountancy did take place so those responsible for altering those accounts should also be investigated for that crime.
Perjury carried a statutory 4 yr prison sentence …
So, maybe Fujitsu should compensate the settlement for the amount of the settlement lost to legal fees?
How much is the inquiry costing?
Are you suggesting it shouldn’t be happening? 🙄
I don't recall
Would you want to outsource all the computer management of other branches of the government? Health. Education. Military. Police. The PO basically handed control of the whole of the Post Office system, to private enterprise, without any direct oversight.
🦉🐯 Perjury now seems legal in the UK ✅
Using public funds to commit perjury also seems legal in the UK ✅
Facing prison for using public funds to commit perjury in the UK ❌
🤔
When are any of these managers, directors, lawyers and Fujitsu staff going to be prosecuted for perjury? Let’s guess. Never.
The only way is to sue for £50,000,000 for each post and sub post master. That would make them wake up.
How many more years are going to go by before justice is seen for subpostmasters and their family's
Compensation swallowed up by legal cost! Where lies justice? Surely the Post Office should have had to cover all legal costs? HMPPPHHHH!
Why should we keep paying for a review the post office and all bosses should be in court then prison
Where did the money go? Is Vennels still ordained?
As I understand it Vennells the Venal is still ordained. 😡
The rats are leaving the ship
I hope the inquiry considers and makes public any bonus payments made to PO management during this period.
Why is the post office wilfully not paying back the monies stolen by them without prevarication all costs expenses should be repaid
Now !! This behaviour by the PO is morally obscene ,pay the the money now and let the enquiry run its course !!
BBC, far too little, far too late. I believe your hands are dirty too⁉️
They ,the Post Office executives must be charged ,and stripped of benefits ,100 million of tax payer money ,and they knew ,evil , obscene disgusting 😕
Why were they changing the accounts? Was someone at Fujitsu stealing it?
Perjury then.
Ill bet anyone that not one of them goes to the clink😮
The Post Office should be Shut Down for what it's Done and It's ENTIRE Management Team Sent To Jail For a VERY long time, Give the Postal Contract to someone Like Amazon, They COULDN'T make a worse Job.
Deeply sorry for getting found out,Because it will not bring back the dead,Judges will come when these vile people are put on trail,and in prison for a long time love and peace to all the postmaster
If you could access the system remotely. Who did that (at Fujitsu) and how much money did that people stole? Where did the money go? As a European I must say that the people that suffered from these actions must get a well deserved compensation and the people responsible life in prison. They had no problem destroying hundreds of lifes and think about the people that had died and never will know that they got acquitted. Family and friend and the public been lied too. Paula and her staff can’t be normal, doing these evil things to innocent people. Life in prison isn’t enough… Another thing that shows that Paula isn’t normal is that she has no problem biking around in her community. Isn’t she ashamed? What a disgusting person. Where did the money go????
Why ant they all in prison, all the head of the post office new they were wrong.
All computer data systems can be remotely accessed.
One rule of law for the common man - another rule of law for the corrupt and 'un accountable' few.. The Government needs to act in a clear and fair manner re punishing those responsible or the people will lose all trust in them....
Prison time should follow.
That 100 MILLION pounds could have been spent on FIXING Horizon !
this can ONLY end in multiple peopel going to jail....
This is still so shocking, that it remains difficult, to comprehend how serously CRIMINAL, the actions were of those in this re the Post Office, Fujitsu and all others who knowingly ruined the lives of so many innocent peole. NO mercy must be shown AND some of them have to know that PRISON time, let alone PROPERTY CONFISCATION, asset stripping and more MUST be part of their punishment.
The Post Office demonstrated a culture and group think akin to the German state and people between 1931 and 1946…. Denial and an absolute adherence to an ideal / organisational loyalty prescribed by its senior leadership.
If the accounts were altered by Fujitsu and the PO knew where did any of these monies go and where is it now? ? Something is very fishy about it all. Remember some postmasters were cajoled by the PO into paying to keep them out of court some might say this was tantamount to blackmail!!
Everyone keeps referring to ‘the post office’, NO it is the employees of the post office and Fujitsu responsible for this outrage. All individuals involved need jail time.
And the BBC were in on it all along.
This person deserves to stand in front of a jury and have a fair for the seeming crimes they have committed .
If the police don't act we need to follow Alan Bates and crowdfund such a process. We cannot let these people get away without a trial.
My cheque book is ready if no action is taken.
Let's have some proper justice for teflon executives for a change and get faith back in justice.
Please join me if we need to
Crowd fund for postmaster justice
When is someone going to investigate Fujitsu, to find if this really was a software fault, or deliberate theft. Internal enquiry will not do here.
4:39 …..and even more importantly , why were they doing it ?
There is a way forward the lawyers who knew this information should give back the legal fees and pass it to the sub post masters. Fujitsu is hiding in the wings and the management at the time need to be prosecuted along with the executives at the post office. This has gone beyond scandal to a very serious criminal case. It is not good enough for these people to say I don't recall practically every piece of evidence put before them is I don't recall. They all need prison time and to pay back bonuses etc. This was flagged up many years ago and the judicial system did nothing???????? how can we trust the system to give justice to people anymore. Legal teams lying to make money how disgusting, altering evidence ,not disclosing evidence the list goes on.