"... many wonders [within the Music] that until then had been hidden ..." Boy, that's an elastic clause, isn't it? You can slip in all kinds of Ungoliants and Bombadils and Goldberrys and Watchers and Old Man Willows with that kind of creative slush fund. Pure genius.
We follow the account of Elves as told to them by the Valar, there is a remark (I think quite early in the book) that they translated the events with concepts Elves would understand
@Pariah666Banshee42 that is true, but I also think it's reasonable to assume that the Valar would just be inherently aware of these kinds of concepts and core family dynamics being so familair with the music of Creation itself. I'd imagine the pattern of offspring imitating their progenitors to learn how to behave, live and thrive is a very universal concept etched into the very fabric and natural laws of Eä, since it is present even in our own reality all throughout the natural world.
Probably just something he remembered from the Music, little doubt using broader, more academic terms than the version localized for the Elves before being passed along to Men.
At some early stage Tolkien actually had the concept of children of the Valar. For instance the late-version character Eonwe "herald of Manwe" was based on an early-version Fionwe who was Manwe's son (and I assume Varda's). While this concept existed there would be no difficulty about Aule speaking of children and parents. But I'm not sure whether this story about Aule's dialog with Iluvatar appeared early enough to make implicit reference to the Valar having children.
@Archgeek0 Yes, the Valar knew/remembered some things that were to come in the world. Aule knew that Illuvatar's children would have children, and he desired this experience, to have children of his own to love and teach. This is why Eru granted them independent life, because unlike Morgoth, his intention was neither to challenge the One or use his children to dominate Arda.
This is very quickly becoming one of the most valuable Tolkien youtube channels in all of Creation with how deeply you go into detail of both the story and its construction and development while still being very succinct. Thank you for your hard work Lexi❤
The channel was already a mithril mine two years ago! However, Lexi deleted (I gauge) 15+ videos due to copyright concerns, gems such as Character Rehab: Merry! I hope she'll reupload all of it, you don't want to miss that (and I want to rewatch it) 😄
@@Crafty_Spirit I had noticed that she sometimes referenced videos that I could no longer fimd on the channel when I found her content several months ago. It's a shame that so much quality videos should be lost to pesky copyright systems. I can't imagine there being any soumd way to back a claim that her content isn't transformative enough to bypass copyright protections. I hope those lost videos can be re-edited and reposted at some point!
For my own part, I would enjoy more stories and episodes such as this. When the elves come, they take over the story so fully and for such a length of time that I find it a bit much and rather miss stories of other beings and creatures of the world.
Thank you for another great video. One thought it prompted in me: I can't help but feel like Manwe's reliving and reinterpretation of the Song tells us something about how Tokien experienced his own (sub)creation of Arda unfolding, specifically the things that surprised him upon "encountering" them, and upended his worldbuilding. Like Treebeard. RE: Dwarves. Do you know where Tolkien stood on Dwarven spirituality, morality, and ultimate fate when he wrote The Hobbit? While they certainly have their flaws in that tale, it's basically a sympathetic portrayal. It's hard to think of them being part of the same race who were once mercenaries for Morgoth. And just because I think it's very mildly amusing and mildly pertinent, I'm going to copy and past a comment on Aule's creation of the Dwarves I made on another channel a long while back: _"Aule creating Dwarves: 'Ok. Tough as nails, check. Resistant to the evils of Morgoth, check. Good at making weapons and armor, check. What else....? Oh, they're going to need lots of warriors, so I'd better make the males twice as common as the females.' Iluvatar: /rolls eyes_ _I suppose they're lucky they lasted more than a generation, since Aule's initial plan only seemed to involve "Seven Fathers". Old Aule really should have spent a little less time in the forge and picked up some pointers about biology from his wife._
Answering your question at the end: yes I would love more exploring into the valar. But elves are interesting too. Maybe you can delve into the differences between the elves in the first age, where they are so “human”, quarreling and fighting and in the third age where they are so “angelic” (Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn).
Good stuff GNG, as much as anything. for its illustration of Tolkien as Niggle, niggling away at his creation endlessly, never quite being happy with it. Though we of course are delighted. Thank you as ever.
On my first confused reading of the Silmarillion, this was a chapter that resonated with me. It seemed readily understandable, and it was a not a conflict between good and evil. Like a good episode of Star Trek, I guess - conflict without a villain and resolution without defeat. Yavanna and Aule's relationship is still one of the clearest in my mind from the Silmarillion. That said, I'm looking forward to Elves around this place in the reading. But if more had been like this earlier, that would probably have felt different.
Great to listen to another episode! When I read this for the first time I really appreciated some 'inter-valar' interactions in this chapter. And Eru speaking to Aule always gives me the vibe of 'bonjour' meme xD
Did the fathers of the Dwarves remember the time when they were given the Flame by Eru or was that taken from them and they only remember after they woke up in middle-Earth?
Pity there's hardly any interplay between the two brothers: Manwë and Melkor - aside from the confrontational aspect. For instance, did Manwë visit and try to reason with Melkor while he was imprisoned in Mandos? Edit: on further thought, what made these two brothers in the mind of Eru? Is it just the dichotomy good sibling vs bad sibling or did they have more things in common? Like King VS Tyrant - a thematic opposition? Becaue their respective domains seem distant from each other.
The original plan was for Manwë to continue and build upon Melkor's pioneering work, maybe like a younger brother would take over from the older. But it fell apart once Arda was roughly created
We know that Melkor was the source of discord in the Ainulindalë. It seems logical that Manwë, through his devotion to Eru, was the source of harmony. Also, throughout Melkor's existence in Middle Earth, Manwë was opposed to everything he did. After Melkor lost the War of Wrath, he was separated from his brother until the Dagor Dagorath, during which they will again be on opposing sides. Melkor will be killed by Turin, probably with his reforged Gurthang. What happens to his ëala after that? Will Eru allow Melkor to be cleansed of his "sins" in Mandos, and be reembodied into a righteous form? That would be cool.
Many ethical challenges in that part of the legendarium. Preserving self-determination for all and honor the imperishable flame, but how? and at what cost?
I was wondering. Could Tolkien have solved the origin of The Orcs problem by simply saying that Melkor made them secretly after the Valar learned that Aulë had created the Dwarves? I mean it would kind of "even the playing field." I think Eru would have been obliged to give them life, since he did so for the Dwarves. Just a thought.
I've wondered just who the 'spirits' that became Ents and Eagles were. Maiar of some sort I suppose? Why they would be content to become Ents and Eagles seems puzzling to me. Did they assume the personality types of the physical forms they were becoming, or were they inclined to having such traits already? I also assume they were, with some exceptions, among the least "powerful" of the Maiar. I also leaning towards these spirits being recruited from outside Arda. Balrogs were also such spirits IIRC, but there were never very many Balrogs, at least in the later conceptions, right?
Though the chapter of Aulë and Yavanna is somewhat awkwardly placed with regards to a writing style jarringly different from the preceding chapter, your splendid research and analysis made me appreciate it tenfold! Quite unique how visionary translation is brought up, and by that I mean how the music of the Ainur expresses itself in early creation, and you made a solid argument that Arda became inhabitated by beings beyond the scope of the Ainulindalë. Great stuff from you 👌🏼
Maybe Aulë picked Yavanna's brain for creation ideas. After all, she could create living creatures, though they had no sentience. Maybe she gave him some pointers. If you think about it, there was no way that Aulë himself should have been able to create the Dwarves, while Yavanna could easily create the Ents.
Yavanna: Aulë, we need to talk about your statement regarding your creations "nevertheless" needing wood. What the actual fuck???? Aulë: Fuck this. I'm going to go hang with my boys, Mairon and Curumo.
☺ By the way, if that's Aulë, then I can understand why the dwarves are bearded. Their beards were created in his image. I have a beard, so everyone gets a beard. Even the women? Did I stutter?
This seems right; even Aulë's elf buddy, Mahtan _Rusco_ (aka Sarmo _Urundil,_ depending on the source) was noted as having Big Beard Energy, sprouting a beard long before he should have. (This being entirely unexplained, one gropes for an explanation. Mahtan being great among the _Aulenduri,_ was his chin-hair triggered simply by working alongside The Maker? And Mahtan evidently handed down his raging BBE to his daughter, Nerdanel _Istimo._ She might not have been bearded, but she gave Fëanor _seven_ sons.) And yet, I've been unable to come up with an actual _source_ for the "fact" that Aulë himself had a beard. Did Tolkien actually state anywhere that Aulë was bearded? If so, where?
@@donweatherwax9318 Melkor's appearance is described vaguely, and there are tiny bits of descriptive attributes for Varda and Ulmo. I am not sure but there may even be a reference to Tulkas having a beard. I cannot recall anything about Aule though. Maybe he had no beard but was inspired by Tulkas'? By the way, Aule in recent fanart is often depicted as a Nordic type, but there is not much basis for that. I prefer to imagine that their appearances were slightly shifting regularly, since they were less attached to their physical bodies than Morgoth
I do wonder if upon being granted consciousness and the first thing you perceive is your God Creator preparing to smote you out of existence may have had a negative intergenerational impact on the psyche of the Dwarves?
Not only does Aulë make dwarves bearded, he makes them Scottish. Edit: What do you think Tolkien though of the idea that 'the author is dead'? That the intentions of the author should not influence the critic's reading of it?
I like how Christopher Tolkien's "History of Middle Earth" shows how JRR Tolkien creative process is not like Athena springing from Zeus head but instead a desperate attempt to force and retrofit "The Hobbit", "The Lord of the Rings" and his biggest work "The Silmarillion" into a consistent whole. JRR is definitely not like Eru saying "Ea! Let these things be!" 😁
Babe, wake up! We're exploring the dynamics of how opposites attract! Also Ents and Dwarves!
"... many wonders [within the Music] that until then had been hidden ..."
Boy, that's an elastic clause, isn't it? You can slip in all kinds of Ungoliants and Bombadils and Goldberrys and Watchers and Old Man Willows with that kind of creative slush fund. Pure genius.
I find it interesting Aulë makes a simile about children and parents... before there's any children or parents in the world.
We follow the account of Elves as told to them by the Valar, there is a remark (I think quite early in the book) that they translated the events with concepts Elves would understand
@Pariah666Banshee42 that is true, but I also think it's reasonable to assume that the Valar would just be inherently aware of these kinds of concepts and core family dynamics being so familair with the music of Creation itself. I'd imagine the pattern of offspring imitating their progenitors to learn how to behave, live and thrive is a very universal concept etched into the very fabric and natural laws of Eä, since it is present even in our own reality all throughout the natural world.
Probably just something he remembered from the Music, little doubt using broader, more academic terms than the version localized for the Elves before being passed along to Men.
At some early stage Tolkien actually had the concept of children of the Valar. For instance the late-version character Eonwe "herald of Manwe" was based on an early-version Fionwe who was Manwe's son (and I assume Varda's). While this concept existed there would be no difficulty about Aule speaking of children and parents. But I'm not sure whether this story about Aule's dialog with Iluvatar appeared early enough to make implicit reference to the Valar having children.
@Archgeek0 Yes, the Valar knew/remembered some things that were to come in the world. Aule knew that Illuvatar's children would have children, and he desired this experience, to have children of his own to love and teach. This is why Eru granted them independent life, because unlike Morgoth, his intention was neither to challenge the One or use his children to dominate Arda.
This is very quickly becoming one of the most valuable Tolkien youtube channels in all of Creation with how deeply you go into detail of both the story and its construction and development while still being very succinct. Thank you for your hard work Lexi❤
The channel was already a mithril mine two years ago! However, Lexi deleted (I gauge) 15+ videos due to copyright concerns, gems such as Character Rehab: Merry! I hope she'll reupload all of it, you don't want to miss that (and I want to rewatch it) 😄
@@Crafty_Spirit I had noticed that she sometimes referenced videos that I could no longer fimd on the channel when I found her content several months ago. It's a shame that so much quality videos should be lost to pesky copyright systems. I can't imagine there being any soumd way to back a claim that her content isn't transformative enough to bypass copyright protections. I hope those lost videos can be re-edited and reposted at some point!
Lord of the one-liner 😂
What is an Aulë one-liner?
"Hey, Babe (speaking to Yavanna). You take care of the small stuff and I'll take care of the big stuff.'
Deep stuff for such a short chapter!
For my own part, I would enjoy more stories and episodes such as this. When the elves come, they take over the story so fully and for such a length of time that I find it a bit much and rather miss stories of other beings and creatures of the world.
Thank you for another great video. One thought it prompted in me: I can't help but feel like Manwe's reliving and reinterpretation of the Song tells us something about how Tokien experienced his own (sub)creation of Arda unfolding, specifically the things that surprised him upon "encountering" them, and upended his worldbuilding. Like Treebeard.
RE: Dwarves. Do you know where Tolkien stood on Dwarven spirituality, morality, and ultimate fate when he wrote The Hobbit? While they certainly have their flaws in that tale, it's basically a sympathetic portrayal. It's hard to think of them being part of the same race who were once mercenaries for Morgoth.
And just because I think it's very mildly amusing and mildly pertinent, I'm going to copy and past a comment on Aule's creation of the Dwarves I made on another channel a long while back:
_"Aule creating Dwarves: 'Ok. Tough as nails, check. Resistant to the evils of Morgoth, check. Good at making weapons and armor, check. What else....? Oh, they're going to need lots of warriors, so I'd better make the males twice as common as the females.' Iluvatar: /rolls eyes_
_I suppose they're lucky they lasted more than a generation, since Aule's initial plan only seemed to involve "Seven Fathers". Old Aule really should have spent a little less time in the forge and picked up some pointers about biology from his wife._
i could listen to your voice forever ❤
Me 2 (not the movementxD)
God bless you and your work young lady 💜💜💜 I deeply admire your work and passionate narration ❤❤❤ respect from Croatia-Europe 💜💜💜
Answering your question at the end: yes I would love more exploring into the valar. But elves are interesting too. Maybe you can delve into the differences between the elves in the first age, where they are so “human”, quarreling and fighting and in the third age where they are so “angelic” (Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn).
Good stuff GNG, as much as anything. for its illustration of Tolkien as Niggle, niggling away at his creation endlessly, never quite being happy with it. Though we of course are delighted. Thank you as ever.
On my first confused reading of the Silmarillion, this was a chapter that resonated with me. It seemed readily understandable, and it was a not a conflict between good and evil. Like a good episode of Star Trek, I guess - conflict without a villain and resolution without defeat. Yavanna and Aule's relationship is still one of the clearest in my mind from the Silmarillion.
That said, I'm looking forward to Elves around this place in the reading. But if more had been like this earlier, that would probably have felt different.
Of course Aulë is a wordsmith there's no smithing he isn't master of. 😎
6:07 "Nyah!" 😀
Aule is easy to understand - he just wanted a family, so to speak. Children. I get it.
Love your sarcasm lol
Great to listen to another episode! When I read this for the first time I really appreciated some 'inter-valar' interactions in this chapter. And Eru speaking to Aule always gives me the vibe of 'bonjour' meme xD
Keep it coming. I've enjoyed this episode tremendously.
@GirlNextGondor amazing production quality, narration and deep knowledge. Love your content, please keep up the great work!
yea! hey group
Thank you for another knowledgeable and interesting video. You have the best Tolkien channel on youtube, imho. Keep them coming please.
Looking forward to the next chapter
Yes! Thank you.
Thank you, lexi (let's continue)
Nice work thanks
Thanks Lexi!
Thanks!
I feel that every academic treatise would benefit from more uses of "nyah."
Not sure how I missed this one! Thank you, Rico!!
@@GirlNextGondor I have no expectation that you acknowledge them all :)
Did the fathers of the Dwarves remember the time when they were given the Flame by Eru or was that taken from them and they only remember after they woke up in middle-Earth?
Eru must have already given the Dwarves sentience before he confronted Aulë. How that was done, Who knows?
@@Enerdhil Infinity Gauntlet.
Thanks! 😀
You never saw my man Tulkas messing up HIS lady's stuff...😂😂😂😂😂
Aule, lord of the one liner
Pity there's hardly any interplay between the two brothers: Manwë and Melkor - aside from the confrontational aspect. For instance, did Manwë visit and try to reason with Melkor while he was imprisoned in Mandos? Edit: on further thought, what made these two brothers in the mind of Eru? Is it just the dichotomy good sibling vs bad sibling or did they have more things in common? Like King VS Tyrant - a thematic opposition? Becaue their respective domains seem distant from each other.
They do seem diametrically opposed to one another.🤔
The original plan was for Manwë to continue and build upon Melkor's pioneering work, maybe like a younger brother would take over from the older. But it fell apart once Arda was roughly created
We know that Melkor was the source of discord in the Ainulindalë. It seems logical that Manwë, through his devotion to Eru, was the source of harmony.
Also, throughout Melkor's existence in Middle Earth, Manwë was opposed to everything he did. After Melkor lost the War of Wrath, he was separated from his brother until the Dagor Dagorath, during which they will again be on opposing sides. Melkor will be killed by Turin, probably with his reforged Gurthang. What happens to his ëala after that? Will Eru allow Melkor to be cleansed of his "sins" in Mandos, and be reembodied into a righteous form? That would be cool.
Many ethical challenges in that part of the legendarium. Preserving self-determination for all and honor the imperishable flame, but how? and at what cost?
I was wondering. Could Tolkien have solved the origin of The Orcs problem by simply saying that Melkor made them secretly after the Valar learned that Aulë had created the Dwarves? I mean it would kind of "even the playing field." I think Eru would have been obliged to give them life, since he did so for the Dwarves. Just a thought.
That would be a very "Eru thing" to do. I think that Melkor is secretly Eru's favorite 😆
@@fuseblower8128
For sure!😂
Yavanna worried about what Dwarves might do to the natural world. Then look at what Men do. I bet Nienna is already mourning it.
I've wondered just who the 'spirits' that became Ents and Eagles were. Maiar of some sort I suppose? Why they would be content to become Ents and Eagles seems puzzling to me. Did they assume the personality types of the physical forms they were becoming, or were they inclined to having such traits already? I also assume they were, with some exceptions, among the least "powerful" of the Maiar. I also leaning towards these spirits being recruited from outside Arda. Balrogs were also such spirits IIRC, but there were never very many Balrogs, at least in the later conceptions, right?
Though the chapter of Aulë and Yavanna is somewhat awkwardly placed with regards to a writing style jarringly different from the preceding chapter, your splendid research and analysis made me appreciate it tenfold! Quite unique how visionary translation is brought up, and by that I mean how the music of the Ainur expresses itself in early creation, and you made a solid argument that Arda became inhabitated by beings beyond the scope of the Ainulindalë.
Great stuff from you 👌🏼
And I loved the detail that in earlier text versions, Yavanna stated that even some of the Ainur did not show enough appreciation for trees
You're the best.
Aule is the mechanical engineer. Yavanna is the biological engineer. I can imagine the arguments at home.
Maybe Aulë picked Yavanna's brain for creation ideas. After all, she could create living creatures, though they had no sentience. Maybe she gave him some pointers. If you think about it, there was no way that Aulë himself should have been able to create the Dwarves, while Yavanna could easily create the Ents.
Regarding your viewer question, I am much more interested in the Valar than the Elves 😄
Yavanna: Aulë, we need to talk about your statement regarding your creations "nevertheless" needing wood. What the actual fuck????
Aulë: Fuck this. I'm going to go hang with my boys, Mairon and Curumo.
Fascinating! Is there a place to get copies of these essays? Does this mean the Ents do not have spirits?
Do you think we'll get any more of this series?
Yavanna is such a nag.
☺ By the way, if that's Aulë, then I can understand why the dwarves are bearded. Their beards were created in his image. I have a beard, so everyone gets a beard. Even the women? Did I stutter?
This seems right; even Aulë's elf buddy, Mahtan _Rusco_ (aka Sarmo _Urundil,_ depending on the source) was noted as having Big Beard Energy, sprouting a beard long before he should have.
(This being entirely unexplained, one gropes for an explanation. Mahtan being great among the _Aulenduri,_ was his chin-hair triggered simply by working alongside The Maker? And Mahtan evidently handed down his raging BBE to his daughter, Nerdanel _Istimo._ She might not have been bearded, but she gave Fëanor _seven_ sons.)
And yet, I've been unable to come up with an actual _source_ for the "fact" that Aulë himself had a beard. Did Tolkien actually state anywhere that Aulë was bearded? If so, where?
@@donweatherwax9318 Melkor's appearance is described vaguely, and there are tiny bits of descriptive attributes for Varda and Ulmo. I am not sure but there may even be a reference to Tulkas having a beard.
I cannot recall anything about Aule though. Maybe he had no beard but was inspired by Tulkas'? By the way, Aule in recent fanart is often depicted as a Nordic type, but there is not much basis for that. I prefer to imagine that their appearances were slightly shifting regularly, since they were less attached to their physical bodies than Morgoth
"they have skill but not art" I call BS. Dwarven art just doesn't appeal to Elves.
How about the Nauglamir?
I do wonder if upon being granted consciousness and the first thing you perceive is your God Creator preparing to smote you out of existence may have had a negative intergenerational impact on the psyche of the Dwarves?
Not only does Aulë make dwarves bearded, he makes them Scottish.
Edit: What do you think Tolkien though of the idea that 'the author is dead'? That the intentions of the author should not influence the critic's reading of it?
I like how Christopher Tolkien's "History of Middle Earth" shows how JRR Tolkien creative process is not like Athena springing from Zeus head but instead a desperate attempt to force and retrofit "The Hobbit", "The Lord of the Rings" and his biggest work "The Silmarillion" into a consistent whole. JRR is definitely not like Eru saying "Ea! Let these things be!" 😁