I feel repeatedly struck by the differences from Tolkien's time to ours. I'm not talking here about the obvious things like electronic storage options. Lexi mentions how an Oxford don was using /scrap paper/ for his literary project in the late sixties. Another is how some public positions in the UK could not be legally held by Catholics, as Tolkien mentions in one of his letters. I find it useful every now and again to remind myself that Tolkien was born in the 1800s, although he died just over fifty years ago. Edit: Come to think of it, Tolkien may have been so thrifty with paper because of his love for trees.
I may have said this before, if so forgive me, please. As a patreon supporter, I love that I've heard this episode before. I LOVE that not only do we supporters get this non-video commentary/analysis as a perk, but that you share it to the wider UA-cam public!! As a content creative in the social media Tolkien-verse, only you (in my awareness) allow those who are not or cannot contribute to your art financially a meaningful taste of the channel behind the veil. I love being a supporter not only of your creativity, but supporting your openness of hand and generosity of spirit . I am proud of you. I think Prof. Tolkien would be too. Thanks, Lexi! You Rock!
'Make the Prof proud' is not a bad aim to have and I would be delighted to merit the distinction someday. Though I will say it's a win-win since I get to test things out in a different format on Patreon and then have the files 'in reserve' for later publishing 😁
I was around 14 years old when I first read the Silmirillion. Like a lot of people after seeing the movies I was like huh? It takes true talent to be able to break it all down and make it more palatable for the normies. great job. Keep uo the great works. ❤❤❤
At the base of it Christopher has to have relished the challenge. By all accounts he kept throwing himself into it regardless of the complexity or discontinuity of the puzzle.
@@dominushydra Where did you get that from? He is open about making mistakes with the published Silmarillion and downplays his contributions and role in the books he edited.
Excellent summary of the tangles involved in History of Middle-earth! Especially enjoyed the only slightly sarcastic account of the stages of composition of a sample part of the legendarium, with manuscripts written, corrected, rewritten, lost, reconstructed, rediscovered, recombined, and partly converted into Anglo-Saxon. Yes (for those who haven't read the material), all of this stuff is really there in the 12 volumes, and I don't think I've ever seen a summary like this.
Glad you found it enjoyable! And yes, I'm afraid people will think I'm exaggerating more than I really am about the 'he wrote it in Old English/in blue pen over a penciled draft' thing 😅
I feel your pain... Just like you, I've only read pieces from the HoMe here and there so far (some of them several times - if they stroke the right cord in me), but never A to Z, and currently I'm trying to do the complete and consistent reading of the HoMe. Let's be noldorly stubborn and get our triumph over this challenge! ⚔
The massiveness of u derstanding the Lege Darius, is beautifully illustrated here, the deep dark mysteries hidden there are wonderful however we encounter them. Thanks for making a path for us.
It is worth "mounting another assault", as you say - for YOU. You do such an excellent job of pulling all the relevant info/writings together and informing us according to the impact and implications of it all. I haven't come across anyone who does such a thorough examination. So... I've been looking forward to listening to your thoughts on this... but I'm going to have to read the Silmarillion again to get it fresh in my mind if I want to get the full benefit. Thanks for going through all of this for/with us.
Ywo or so years ago when Amazon fired Tom Shippey, I started buying all of Tolkien in Deluxe Editions and picked up and started reading The Complete History of Middle-Earth. I started by reading 6-9 then went back to Vol 1 and read the rest in sequence. In the meantime they came out with a Deluxe Edition of The History of The Hobbit which I read after Vol 10, and also picked up and read The Nature of Middle-Earth and I finally finished last month. I described those books as "reading a crime scene report". describes every detail down to the color of ink of the pen and what kind of pencil. Tedious beyond anything I have ever read, I really thought the Prose would be the hardest for me, it turns out I enjoyed the Prose the most.
Sounds like you took a left when you shoulda took a right. You get lost doing that. Sometimes end up in very interesting, but non-navigable areas. Im glad you made it back.
The complexity and contradiction in Tolkiens legendarium is part of what makes it so rich and feel so real. I love you’re attacking this with all the gusto of Fingolfin! You’re loyal fans shall be your Ringil!
@@GirlNextGondoryou shouldn't even bother. It's just fan fiction even by the Tolkiens who got lost in the sauce. George Lucas also had a similar mental degradation over time which led to the prequels.
Having endured all 12 volumes of the History of Middle Earth, with the prose being the highlight, I can safely say it all went wrong with the Lost Tales and Tolkien not finishing the Tale of Earendil. The three great stories: Beren and Luthien, the Children of Hurin and the Fall of Gondolin should really be four as the Tale of Earendil would have brought all three to a definitive conclusion. It only got worse with the Lays -- which are awesome by the way for Tolkien is one hell of a poet -- as none of them were completed. This meant the stories and fates of Luthien, Beren, Melian, Dior, Tuor, Elwing and Earendil were either incomplete or hastily rushed or barely detailed. Tolkien created fully completed works with the Sketch of the Mythology and the 1930 Silmarillion. But the lack of a full Tale of Earendil and the unfinished Lays would always come back to hobble all future versions of the Silmarillion and always constrain Tolkien's efforts. In 1937 there was the Quenta Silmarillion and this was the most detailed but came to abrupt stop, about three quarters of the way through the general Silmarillion narrative, due to the publishing of the Hobbit and work beginning on Lord of the Rings. From about 1938 to the late 1940s Tolkien's efforts were poured towards Lord of the Rings which was completed. This introduced the Third Age, with the proto-Numenor writings of the 30s being the loose connection between the earlier works and the Lord of the Rings. This created a massive problem for Tolkien: how could he seemlessly connect the Silmarillion to the Lord of the Rings? Well in 1949 to 1952 he sure as hell tried fresh from his personal success of completing LOTR. If there was to be an ideal Silmarillion that it would have a combined epic of the Silmarillion plus LOTR plus appendices: The Wars of the Jewels and the Rings. Easily 2000 pages plus. Understandably the publishers said no: repeatedly. At last Tolkien relented on a combined Silmarillion/LOTR and consented to his LOTR epic being split into a trilogy of books. This was 1954 and this rejection by the publishers forever dented the momentum Tolkien had for integrating the old Silmarillion with the new LOTR. The period 1949 to 1952 had, in my opinion, the greatest written work Tolkien ever did with my personal favourite being Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin. The prose and the description is glorious, and if that version had been completed then this version of the Fall of Gondolin would have been Tolkien's greatest bit of writing. Yet again the lack of completing the Tale of Earendil indirectly messes up Tolkien's attempts in the early 1950s to complete the Lay of Luthien, a re-imagined Fall of Gondolin and a definitive ending to the Silmarillion- Earendil was that definitive ending and closure to the first age. But despite what Tolkien didn't do, the early 1950s Silmarillion was the most interesting of them all complete with various commentaries on the Eldar, their customs and about death. I would even argue that the early 1950s Silmarillion would have been the definitive Silmarillion if Tolkien had completed it. There was additional work done by Tolkien on various odds and ends of the First Age, Second Age and Third Age as for instance he attempted to integrate Galadriel, Sauron, Cirdan, Elrond and even Gandalf to his previous works, whilst changing the names of older characters or changing their lineage. None of this helped to create a definitive Silmarillion nor did it cohesively tie the Lord of the Rings to the Silmarillion; nor did it cohesively tie the second age material (Fall of Numenor and Rings of Power) to the first age; and any second age material seemed an extension of the LOTR appendices then its own unique set of writings. Again, the lack of completing the Tale of Earendil left the ending of the First Age very fuzzy in detail and very limited in description. JRR Tolkien finally passed away and left behind a massive mess for his son Christopher to untangle. Like it or lump it Christopher did what I believe was the following: selectively pick writings to create a Silmarillion that served purely as a prequel to the Lord of the Rings to achieve coherency. Remember in LOTR the Red Book and its Eldar Tales? Those Eldar Tales ARE the published Silmarillion as we know it- the translations of one Bilbo Baggins. Read the published Silmarillion again and there several times where you can almost hear the voice of Bilbo Baggins and that of good hobbit sense commentating on these ancient myths and histories. "But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song." Chapter: Of the Sindar "And of these histories most fair still in the ears of the Elves is the tale of Beren and Luthien. Of their lives was made the Lay of Leithian, Release from Bondage, which is the longest save one of the songs concerning the world of old; but here the tale is told in fewer words and without song." Chapter: Of Beren and Luthien My 2 cents having endured all Volumes of the History of Middle Earth!
Thank you for that history lesson. I agree with you 100% that we need a complete Earendil story as well as a complete Fall of Gondolin story. When I heard Christopher was publishing stand alone versions of Beren and Luthien, Children of Hurin, and Fall of Gondolin, I was excited to be able to read completed stories. But alas! Only Turin's story was told as a novel from beginning to end.😞 I guess we are stuck with unfinished stories and our own headcanon.
@@Enerdhil Yep! That's the TL:DR version of the History of Middle Earth. The first and second books Lost Tales are definitely worth a read, while book 10 is essential as that really bridges the gap between Silmarillion and LOTR. Books 11 and 12 have good bits too.
You clearly love Tolkien. You make the best videos on UA-cam about the legendarium. He is one of the greatest English authors but in themes and memes etc he is indefinite, because it's so beautiful and traditional. He was a profound artist. Though I don't expect to find mysteries like Pythagoras in Genesis.
Poor Christopher how he suffered so having to scramble through thousands of notes, and dozens of versions to put together the best possible works he can for his father. Love your analysis of Tolkien's work-flow and creative process, it made putting together my time-line video a little exasperating to put together and even amusing given how some works are touched up ten years after the first two or three versions. At some point we're (Tolkien Lore Geek, you and I) going to have to sit down and discuss this writing, re-writing and accidental over-writing process of Tolkien.
What do you think Tolkien would have thought about the Silmarillion? Would he have liked it or would he have denounced it as a literary Frankenstein's monster, a body sewn together from disparate parts?
Which Tolkien? Towards the end of his life, I believe he would have been more calm about it, though no doubt feeling the inadequacies deeply. He had struggled with it for so long, and knew how hard (or impossible) it would be to make it into what he wanted. And he would have been more aware of how much people wanted to know more. And, let's not deny it, he would have been aware that it would be another source of income he could leave to his children. Having grown up so poor, this would no doubt have been on his mind. Earlier in his life, I think he would have been more fiery about it. He probably would have appreciated many of the clever and painstaking efforts Christopher went through. He would probably have appreciated the History volumes more. But if someone had presented the Silm at the Inklings, I would expect he would have had many and varied criticisms.
Trying to come up with some relevant encouragement... How about "Where there's life, there's hope - and need of victuals." Well, whether your feet are eager or weary, the road may go on forever; but you can't without the requisite rests. And I'm sure everyone agrees with that.
@@GirlNextGondor Now I'm just imagining various characters teleporting around Middle-Earth every time Tolkien rewrites something. They are completely baffled at, for example, being just about to head to bed before finding themselves in the rain halfway across the country.
Okay but Christopher should have totally included the longer versions of the Great Tales (or at least some version of them) in the published Silmarillion. The Silm is already an uneven, fragmented, bible-esque book. Might as well embrace that. Plus, as a teen, reading the Silm for the first time, it always seemed too short to me. Based on the way it was described in LOTR, I expected the Silmarillion to be an encyclopedia of tales. Keeping it short and tight was missing the main appeal of the thing...
Thank you for that info explanation, Lexi. But you don't owe us one. We know you have good reasons for not making content and we're glad to have you back. Looking forward to any and all content on this wonderful channel.😁👍
Great video! I will say one thing that consistently bothers me is the lack of credit to Tolkien's daughter. She was important while Tolkien was writing, and contributed to Christopher's work. Thanks so much for your channel. Keep them coming 👍. 🖖😁🤘🇨🇦
its because Tolkien himself, Christopher and Guy Gavriel Kay worked most on it. Tolkien's daughter didn't do much, so I don't understand why her little assists here and there would matter so much to you?
Hehehe, the real talk nature of these casts is as enjoyable as the content, the insights into your thought processes are maybe even more entertaining than the subject of them and super relatable *8 )
Excellent stuff. One thing I've taken from this is that I should definitely be referring to "Silmarillions" in the plural... Interesting issue about him being so thrifty with paper: It can be maddening because so much is questionable or undecipherable when he reused old papers. But I wonder how much more might have just been tossed out, intentionally or accidentally, if he or his household wasn't thinking in terms of possibly using the physical material later on. Not such a big deal with old exams and the like...though some of these provided important clues about chronology...but maybe we'd have lost some old drafts we have now, even if they're inscrutable in places.
I love these characters and this chapter, and I would love them even if they had no relevance to the rest of the story. Vairë, for example, isn’t ever mentioned again. Another two sides of a coin between Mandos and Lórien, or maybe it’s between Vairë and Este: the former is about remembering, the latter about forgetting. Mandos’ doom is unshakeable. Lórien is where you can forget your woes.
I commend you on your fortitude in returning to such an effort. May the spirit of Christopher Tolkien encourage you! P.S. Don't go knocking on any large metal doors challenging dark lords!
That sounds incredibly exciting. Also: Cool that you like Blind Guardian. Whats your favourite song of theirs? In my case it is Majesty from their debut and When sorrow sang from Nightfall in Middle Earth.
Looking forward to it. I don't know if the recently published "Fall of Numenor" would help you get a handle on that material, but I did find it to be a useful one volume source for all things Atalantean.
We could also take that Numenorean ship to the shores of Aman and demand the Immortality that is rightfully ours and has been withheld by the Valar who play favorites with the Firstborn and it's totally not fair!
25:23 *what?* You were so daunted by the material that you forgot instructions on how to punch the like button? Punched it anyway, but that means you kind of _are_ daunted by the material, doesn't it?
If it's not in The Hobbit, LOTR or The Silmarillion i could care less what Unfinished Tales, History of Middle-Earth or letters say about the lore. The biggest travesty is Chris reconning Gil-Galad as the son of Orodreth, which makes even less sense than him being the son of Fingon. Gil-Galad being a Finarfin yet never stepping foot in Nargothrond or even Doriath is laughable. Him being sent to live in Balar far away from the War in The North however makes perfect sense being Fingon's son and I can come up with several very plausible reasons why Turgon took up the High Kingship over him and the most plausible and glaringly obvious reason is Gil-Galad didn't have Turgon's proverbial muscle during war time and not even half way ready to lead.
"We'll burn that ship when we come to it"
Oof, that hurt
Boom, roasted (like Feanor's youngest son)
@@GirlNextGondor 💅
@@GirlNextGondor lmao
I feel repeatedly struck by the differences from Tolkien's time to ours. I'm not talking here about the obvious things like electronic storage options. Lexi mentions how an Oxford don was using /scrap paper/ for his literary project in the late sixties. Another is how some public positions in the UK could not be legally held by Catholics, as Tolkien mentions in one of his letters. I find it useful every now and again to remind myself that Tolkien was born in the 1800s, although he died just over fifty years ago.
Edit: Come to think of it, Tolkien may have been so thrifty with paper because of his love for trees.
I may have said this before, if so forgive me, please.
As a patreon supporter, I love that I've heard this episode before.
I LOVE that not only do we supporters get this non-video commentary/analysis as a perk, but that you share it to the wider UA-cam public!!
As a content creative in the social media Tolkien-verse, only you (in my awareness) allow those who are not or cannot contribute to your art financially a meaningful taste of the channel behind the veil. I love being a supporter not only of your creativity, but supporting your openness of hand and generosity of spirit . I am proud of you. I think Prof. Tolkien would be too.
Thanks, Lexi!
You Rock!
'Make the Prof proud' is not a bad aim to have and I would be delighted to merit the distinction someday.
Though I will say it's a win-win since I get to test things out in a different format on Patreon and then have the files 'in reserve' for later publishing 😁
"We'll burn that ship when we come to it" is such a GirlNextGondor-ism.
Well, Lexi is a self-avowed Fëanorian, is she not?
I was around 14 years old when I first read the Silmirillion. Like a lot of people after seeing the movies I was like huh? It takes true talent to be able to break it all down and make it more palatable for the normies. great job. Keep uo the great works. ❤❤❤
Poor Christopher! The man must have had endless patience...
He credits Guy Gavriel Kay with helping him significantly on the manuscript for the The Silmarillion, see the acknowledgements at the start.
Also endless Hubris.
At the base of it Christopher has to have relished the challenge. By all accounts he kept throwing himself into it regardless of the complexity or discontinuity of the puzzle.
@@dominushydra Where did you get that from? He is open about making mistakes with the published Silmarillion and downplays his contributions and role in the books he edited.
Excellent summary of the tangles involved in History of Middle-earth! Especially enjoyed the only slightly sarcastic account of the stages of composition of a sample part of the legendarium, with manuscripts written, corrected, rewritten, lost, reconstructed, rediscovered, recombined, and partly converted into Anglo-Saxon. Yes (for those who haven't read the material), all of this stuff is really there in the 12 volumes, and I don't think I've ever seen a summary like this.
Glad you found it enjoyable! And yes, I'm afraid people will think I'm exaggerating more than I really am about the 'he wrote it in Old English/in blue pen over a penciled draft' thing 😅
Glad I'm not the only one who blasts Blind Guardian while reading the extra canonical writings!
Yess! Epic band to see live and sing along to😊
🤘
curse of faenor is the best ;)
You are now my guest... Forever. Hahahahahahahaha
Thanks Lexi!
Honestly the amount of thought and scholarship you put into your videos is incredible.
It's almost frightening! I almost live to be 'scared' by it!😁
The sentense from arround 16:00 is litterally the most accurate summary of Tolkien's work I ever found anywhere!
Always learning something new from your deep dives, and I've been reading Tolkien since childhood!
👍 happy to hear it's useful! I'm always learning new stuff making them.
I feel your pain... Just like you, I've only read pieces from the HoMe here and there so far (some of them several times - if they stroke the right cord in me), but never A to Z, and currently I'm trying to do the complete and consistent reading of the HoMe. Let's be noldorly stubborn and get our triumph over this challenge! ⚔
The massiveness of u derstanding the Lege Darius, is beautifully illustrated here, the deep dark mysteries hidden there are wonderful however we encounter them. Thanks for making a path for us.
As always I am flabbergasted by your knowledge and thoroughness
Thanks Lexi. Always love hearing your thoughts 🧝♂️
Endless respect for continuing this series.
It is worth "mounting another assault", as you say - for YOU. You do such an excellent job of pulling all the relevant info/writings together and informing us according to the impact and implications of it all. I haven't come across anyone who does such a thorough examination. So... I've been looking forward to listening to your thoughts on this... but I'm going to have to read the Silmarillion again to get it fresh in my mind if I want to get the full benefit. Thanks for going through all of this for/with us.
This is nice
I love how simple and yet how accurate this comment is.
Thanks lexi
You mentioned Blind Guardian, and my heart soared.
Middle Earth is so metal!
Yeah, that checks out. The wider Lord of the Rings 'Verse... it's really tricky to figure out the background without going mad.
Just discovered your channel the other day. I love the content! Thank you for the lore!
I like that you know what "apology" means.
damn now im obsessed with this series, please make more 😅❤
Mae Govannon mellon!!Mellon!!! Good to hear from ye. It's all good. You keep up the great work Mellon! Ecthelion!!
Worth the wait.
Ywo or so years ago when Amazon fired Tom Shippey, I started buying all of Tolkien in Deluxe Editions and picked up and started reading The Complete History of Middle-Earth. I started by reading 6-9 then went back to Vol 1 and read the rest in sequence. In the meantime they came out with a Deluxe Edition of The History of The Hobbit which I read after Vol 10, and also picked up and read The Nature of Middle-Earth and I finally finished last month. I described those books as "reading a crime scene report". describes every detail down to the color of ink of the pen and what kind of pencil. Tedious beyond anything I have ever read, I really thought the Prose would be the hardest for me, it turns out I enjoyed the Prose the most.
Babe wake up, she's spoiling us with content again!
Sounds like you took a left when you shoulda took a right. You get lost doing that. Sometimes end up in very interesting, but non-navigable areas. Im glad you made it back.
Ware Albuquerque.
@zimmerwald1915 That's what I say when I finally get someplace after being lost. Where ya been!?! Albuquerque. Thanks, Bugs.
Blind Guardian mentioned!
"we'll burn that ship when we come to it" may be my new favourite idiom
The complexity and contradiction in Tolkiens legendarium is part of what makes it so rich and feel so real. I love you’re attacking this with all the gusto of Fingolfin! You’re loyal fans shall be your Ringil!
Together we will puncture the accursed foot of textual variance!
@@GirlNextGondoryou shouldn't even bother. It's just fan fiction even by the Tolkiens who got lost in the sauce. George Lucas also had a similar mental degradation over time which led to the prequels.
@@dominushydrafound Glaurung. XD
@@Archgeek0 found Tauriel 🧚
Thank you, keep up the great work with the great works! 💖
Thank you so much for your support!! 🥰
Having endured all 12 volumes of the History of Middle Earth, with the prose being the highlight, I can safely say it all went wrong with the Lost Tales and Tolkien not finishing the Tale of Earendil. The three great stories: Beren and Luthien, the Children of Hurin and the Fall of Gondolin should really be four as the Tale of Earendil would have brought all three to a definitive conclusion.
It only got worse with the Lays -- which are awesome by the way for Tolkien is one hell of a poet -- as none of them were completed. This meant the stories and fates of Luthien, Beren, Melian, Dior, Tuor, Elwing and Earendil were either incomplete or hastily rushed or barely detailed.
Tolkien created fully completed works with the Sketch of the Mythology and the 1930 Silmarillion. But the lack of a full Tale of Earendil and the unfinished Lays would always come back to hobble all future versions of the Silmarillion and always constrain Tolkien's efforts.
In 1937 there was the Quenta Silmarillion and this was the most detailed but came to abrupt stop, about three quarters of the way through the general Silmarillion narrative, due to the publishing of the Hobbit and work beginning on Lord of the Rings.
From about 1938 to the late 1940s Tolkien's efforts were poured towards Lord of the Rings which was completed. This introduced the Third Age, with the proto-Numenor writings of the 30s being the loose connection between the earlier works and the Lord of the Rings. This created a massive problem for Tolkien: how could he seemlessly connect the Silmarillion to the Lord of the Rings?
Well in 1949 to 1952 he sure as hell tried fresh from his personal success of completing LOTR. If there was to be an ideal Silmarillion that it would have a combined epic of the Silmarillion plus LOTR plus appendices: The Wars of the Jewels and the Rings. Easily 2000 pages plus.
Understandably the publishers said no: repeatedly. At last Tolkien relented on a combined Silmarillion/LOTR and consented to his LOTR epic being split into a trilogy of books. This was 1954 and this rejection by the publishers forever dented the momentum Tolkien had for integrating the old Silmarillion with the new LOTR. The period 1949 to 1952 had, in my opinion, the greatest written work Tolkien ever did with my personal favourite being Of Tuor
and His Coming to Gondolin. The prose and the description is glorious, and if that version had been completed then this version of the Fall of Gondolin would have been Tolkien's greatest bit of writing.
Yet again the lack of completing the Tale of Earendil indirectly messes up Tolkien's attempts in the early 1950s to complete the Lay of Luthien, a re-imagined Fall of Gondolin and a definitive ending to the Silmarillion- Earendil was that definitive ending and closure to the first age. But despite what Tolkien didn't do, the early 1950s Silmarillion was the most interesting of them all complete with various commentaries on the Eldar, their customs and about death. I would even argue that the early 1950s Silmarillion would have been the definitive Silmarillion if Tolkien had completed it.
There was additional work done by Tolkien on various odds and ends of the First Age, Second Age and Third Age as for instance he attempted to integrate Galadriel, Sauron, Cirdan, Elrond and even Gandalf to his previous works, whilst changing the names of older characters or changing their lineage. None of this helped to create a definitive Silmarillion nor did it cohesively tie the Lord of the Rings to the Silmarillion; nor did it cohesively tie the second age material (Fall of Numenor and Rings of Power) to the first age; and any second age material seemed an extension of the LOTR appendices then its own unique set of writings. Again, the lack of completing the Tale of Earendil left the ending of the First Age very fuzzy in detail and very limited in description.
JRR Tolkien finally passed away and left behind a massive mess for his son Christopher to untangle. Like it or lump it Christopher did what I believe was the following: selectively pick writings to create a Silmarillion that served purely as a prequel to the Lord of the Rings to achieve coherency. Remember in LOTR the Red Book and its Eldar Tales? Those Eldar Tales ARE the published Silmarillion as we know it- the translations of one Bilbo Baggins.
Read the published Silmarillion again and there several times where you can almost hear the voice of Bilbo Baggins and that of good hobbit sense commentating on these ancient myths and histories.
"But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song."
Chapter: Of the Sindar
"And of these histories most fair still in the ears of the Elves is the tale of Beren and Luthien. Of their lives was made the Lay of Leithian, Release from Bondage, which is the longest save one of the songs concerning the world of old; but here the tale is told in fewer words and without song."
Chapter: Of Beren and Luthien
My 2 cents having endured all Volumes of the History of Middle Earth!
Thank you for that history lesson.
I agree with you 100% that we need a complete Earendil story as well as a complete Fall of Gondolin story.
When I heard Christopher was publishing stand alone versions of Beren and Luthien, Children of Hurin, and Fall of Gondolin, I was excited to be able to read completed stories. But alas! Only Turin's story was told as a novel from beginning to end.😞
I guess we are stuck with unfinished stories and our own headcanon.
@@Enerdhil Yep! That's the TL:DR version of the History of Middle Earth. The first and second books Lost Tales are definitely worth a read, while book 10 is essential as that really bridges the gap between Silmarillion and LOTR. Books 11 and 12 have good bits too.
Love your work. I listen with my tape recorder at hand to steal ideas for my DMing
Looking forward to the journey. Thanks for your insight.
You clearly love Tolkien. You make the best videos on UA-cam about the legendarium. He is one of the greatest English authors but in themes and memes etc he is indefinite, because it's so beautiful and traditional. He was a profound artist. Though I don't expect to find mysteries like Pythagoras in Genesis.
Poor Christopher how he suffered so having to scramble through thousands of notes, and dozens of versions to put together the best possible works he can for his father.
Love your analysis of Tolkien's work-flow and creative process, it made putting together my time-line video a little exasperating to put together and even amusing given how some works are touched up ten years after the first two or three versions.
At some point we're (Tolkien Lore Geek, you and I) going to have to sit down and discuss this writing, re-writing and accidental over-writing process of Tolkien.
Love Blind Gaurdian! Hope you also listen to Jethro Tull, Amon Amarth and Turisas!!!
What do you think Tolkien would have thought about the Silmarillion? Would he have liked it or would he have denounced it as a literary Frankenstein's monster, a body sewn together from disparate parts?
Which Tolkien? Towards the end of his life, I believe he would have been more calm about it, though no doubt feeling the inadequacies deeply. He had struggled with it for so long, and knew how hard (or impossible) it would be to make it into what he wanted. And he would have been more aware of how much people wanted to know more. And, let's not deny it, he would have been aware that it would be another source of income he could leave to his children. Having grown up so poor, this would no doubt have been on his mind.
Earlier in his life, I think he would have been more fiery about it. He probably would have appreciated many of the clever and painstaking efforts Christopher went through. He would probably have appreciated the History volumes more. But if someone had presented the Silm at the Inklings, I would expect he would have had many and varied criticisms.
It's fine, honestly.
"we'll burn that ship when we come to it"
*_shook_* 🥲
I just like to learn about stuff like this lol
Trying to come up with some relevant encouragement... How about "Where there's life, there's hope - and need of victuals." Well, whether your feet are eager or weary, the road may go on forever; but you can't without the requisite rests. And I'm sure everyone agrees with that.
Sam: we're in one of the great stories now!
Frodo (in horrified whisper): but which version, Sam? Which canon? * What of the retcons?*
@@GirlNextGondor Now I'm just imagining various characters teleporting around Middle-Earth every time Tolkien rewrites something. They are completely baffled at, for example, being just about to head to bed before finding themselves in the rain halfway across the country.
@@GirlNextGondor
🤣😂😆 Really miss your sense of humor!
"Mr. Tolkien, I'm afraid we're going to have to remove your appendix."
"But that's where I explained where the dwarves hate the elves!"
You go girl!
Okay but Christopher should have totally included the longer versions of the Great Tales (or at least some version of them) in the published Silmarillion. The Silm is already an uneven, fragmented, bible-esque book. Might as well embrace that.
Plus, as a teen, reading the Silm for the first time, it always seemed too short to me. Based on the way it was described in LOTR, I expected the Silmarillion to be an encyclopedia of tales. Keeping it short and tight was missing the main appeal of the thing...
25:10 "The Lord of Water spoke, in the silence, words of wisdom..." Attagirl ./../
Thank you for that info explanation, Lexi. But you don't owe us one. We know you have good reasons for not making content and we're glad to have you back. Looking forward to any and all content on this wonderful channel.😁👍
Great video! I will say one thing that consistently bothers me is the lack of credit to Tolkien's daughter. She was important while Tolkien was writing, and contributed to Christopher's work. Thanks so much for your channel. Keep them coming 👍. 🖖😁🤘🇨🇦
its because Tolkien himself, Christopher and Guy Gavriel Kay worked most on it. Tolkien's daughter didn't do much, so I don't understand why her little assists here and there would matter so much to you?
Thank 🐑
Hehehe, the real talk nature of these casts is as enjoyable as the content, the insights into your thought processes are maybe even more entertaining than the subject of them and super relatable *8 )
Excellent stuff. One thing I've taken from this is that I should definitely be referring to "Silmarillions" in the plural...
Interesting issue about him being so thrifty with paper: It can be maddening because so much is questionable or undecipherable when he reused old papers. But I wonder how much more might have just been tossed out, intentionally or accidentally, if he or his household wasn't thinking in terms of possibly using the physical material later on. Not such a big deal with old exams and the like...though some of these provided important clues about chronology...but maybe we'd have lost some old drafts we have now, even if they're inscrutable in places.
I love these characters and this chapter, and I would love them even if they had no relevance to the rest of the story. Vairë, for example, isn’t ever mentioned again.
Another two sides of a coin between Mandos and Lórien, or maybe it’s between Vairë and Este: the former is about remembering, the latter about forgetting. Mandos’ doom is unshakeable. Lórien is where you can forget your woes.
Hi. The three epic stories in the Silmarillon are the Ainulindale, The Quentasillmarillion & The Acalabeth. 😎
Don't you mean the Akallabêth?
Those are "three" stories?🧐
I commend you on your fortitude in returning to such an effort. May the spirit of Christopher Tolkien encourage you!
P.S. Don't go knocking on any large metal doors challenging dark lords!
That sounds incredibly exciting. Also: Cool that you like Blind Guardian. Whats your favourite song of theirs?
In my case it is Majesty from their debut and When sorrow sang from Nightfall in Middle Earth.
24:24 I’m dead 😂💀
5th!
Let's see.🤔
1st= gold
2nd= silver
3rd= bronze
4th= aluminum?
5th= plastic?
Anyway, congrats!
Looking forward to it. I don't know if the recently published "Fall of Numenor" would help you get a handle on that material, but I did find it to be a useful one volume source for all things Atalantean.
Alternative title - Palimpsest: the Pros and Cons.
We could also take that Numenorean ship to the shores of Aman and demand the Immortality that is rightfully ours and has been withheld by the Valar who play favorites with the Firstborn and it's totally not fair!
Ar-Pharazon is too creepy for me to spend ages hanging out with. So I pass on that ship.
This video gave me peritonitis PTSD.
So the easiest way to make sense of all the writings is to just read Tolkien Gateway articles 😂. 99% certain to not be written in ancient Anglo Saxon.
It's certainly among the less painful options 😅
I just want a Top 10 list again. Lol
Okay, You have entirely confused me. That only encourages me to listen to you again, more closely, and read more.
Thanks for the video!
If it helps, this may be more a cry of frustration on my part than a well-structured argument 😆
better than the best.
Hi
Hey there
💎💎💎
The Silmauxilliaron?
25:23 *what?*
You were so daunted by the material that you forgot instructions on how to punch the like button?
Punched it anyway, but that means you kind of _are_ daunted by the material, doesn't it?
I usually omit those for the patreon audio... but yes, I was rattled enough to have forgotten it!
ah, ok@@GirlNextGondor - it was a patreon audio, sry ...
Sorry, forgot to ask, is there a Book of Lost Tales vl. 2 ? 🤘😁🖖🇨🇦
So did Tolkien write stuff in Quena then translate it to old English then to modern english to get a text that had been translated multiple times?
You might be on to something.🤔
If it's not in The Hobbit, LOTR or The Silmarillion i could care less what Unfinished Tales, History of Middle-Earth or letters say about the lore. The biggest travesty is Chris reconning Gil-Galad as the son of Orodreth, which makes even less sense than him being the son of Fingon. Gil-Galad being a Finarfin yet never stepping foot in Nargothrond or even Doriath is laughable.
Him being sent to live in Balar far away from the War in The North however makes perfect sense being Fingon's son and I can come up with several very plausible reasons why Turgon took up the High Kingship over him and the most plausible and glaringly obvious reason is Gil-Galad didn't have Turgon's proverbial muscle during war time and not even half way ready to lead.
how can your words draw so much energy? Please continue till...