Michael Heiser - Chaos Language in the Bible
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- Опубліковано 22 бер 2018
- Dr. Michael Heiser explains how the Bible uses chaos and creation language-chaos imagery is present in both testaments. The Bible does not mention dinosaurs or cohabitation during the biblical period. I know many Christians think that the Bible requires simultaneous habitation, due to their view of Genesis and “Leviathan” and “behemoth” in the wisdom literature, but that simply isn’t the case. There is no such biblical requirement.
What exactly does leviathan refer to in the Book of Job?
The OT often points out or opposes specific truths found in local ancient literature of its day. We know that the book of Job is referencing the pagan mythological sources for many reasons:
• Job 7:12 refers to Yam (also Yamm) the Ugaritic sea and river
god. Also, Tanninim (Tunannu in Ugaritic) the Canaanite,
Phoenician, and Hebrew sea monster (comparable to the
Leviathan of Job 41:1)
• Job 9:13 refers to Rahab (Tiamat in the Enûma Eliš) the
Mesopotamian sea beast-see also Psalm 104, Psalm 89: 5-12,
and Isaiah 51:9-10
• Tannin appears in the Ba’al Cycle as one of the servants of Yam
(lit. sea) defeated by Ba’al (lit. lord) or bound by his sister, ’Anat.
He’s usually depicted as serpentine.
• In The Babylonian story, Marduk slays Tiamat, the chaotic sea-
monster and mother of all gods, whose husband, Apsu, had plans
to do away with her noisy children, the rest of the gods. Marduk
then uses the corpse of Tiamat to create the world as we know it.
As chaotic sea-monster, Tiamat is comparable to the Israelite
Leviathan or the Ugaritic (Canaanite) Yamm.
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Dr. Heiser, has lead me down a path. His book "unseen realm" is amazing. I have started reading academic journals, got bible software, and payed attention to the way the world functions. To see that that the " what do you meme" team has sited him is another validation that the spirit is leading me and others to the true meaning of inspiration.
as always blown away by Heiser's big brain.
marlene g amazing but don’t listen to this at 1:30am , you’ll get dizzy like me 😂 Clicking watch later now.
I love these in depth studies. Thanks for helping make sense of some things that didn’t make sense throughout life.
Thank you for bringing your experience to us Dr. Heuser. It has changed my perspective and explains what was missing all those years.
I loosen for myself, my family, my friends, colleagues, neighbours, acquintances, repentant opponents and the body of Christ to be driven and ruled by order and bind to hell to be driven and ruled by chaos, while I loosen myself of every unequal yoke and common share with those driven and ruled by chaos, in accordance with genesis 1, 2 corinthians 6:14-15 and this whole message, in the name and blood of Jesus Christ, amen and hallelujah!
this is fantastic
I also appreciate the dnd pic
I didn’t know Michael Heiser was the script consultant for the Bible Project.
Chris Jackson Well, now you know 🥴
Huh...I was wondering why I kept hearing this kind of language about chaos everywhere on youtube. It comes directly from Dr. Heiser.
Anyway I think he's mostly right on this, but God left chaos for a reason. He only slay some of it to make dry land and left the rest untouched. I think Mike is missing that when he suggests "all chaos bad and all order good". And to be fair, I'm not sure that is his view at all, but it certainly seems that way from my limited knowledge of him so far.
If you are familiar with the Bible Project, you know they teach an unbiblical idea of hell.
I'm beginning to have some concerns about Mr. Heiser...
@@gerrydean7696 Truth. Also, this season they are going to have an episode devoted to portraying God as a mother goddess.
@@wjckc79 ..wow!🧐 guess I'm done with the Bible Project
557 views as of 4/4/2018, with an excellent approval rate of 22-1
and yet, zero comments ?
I'm wondering
are people intimidated by Michael's knowledge and afraid to comment for fear of making themselves look foolish?
Do they enjoy what he says but feel like they don't know enough to ask an intelligent question?
Do they understand it all and don't feel compelled to comment?
I've wondered why God waited until about 2,500 years AFTER Adam to have Moses write scriptures that became the first part of the eventual collection called the Bible.
Why not have Adam do it ?
Michael's teaching in this video causes me to think of a possible answer,
especially his comment about how the scriptures would be an affront to the groups that believed the corrupted stories, an attack against their gods.
Maybe God waited until after all the false teachings and corruptions about the beginning became established and then recorded the true story of the beginning and at the same time dealt with the corruptions, doing this with one man, Moses.
Growing up as an adopted prince of Egypt, Moses would have received the best education available in the world at that time. He would have known about the corrupted stories and false gods.
One other comment - about the land coming up out of the water -
today scientists have a theory that the Earth was covered entirely by water at the beginning.
Then by the action of what today is called tectonic plates the land was pushed up out of the sea (actually, from much lower and pushed up thru the sea). Perhaps that is how God did it. That action is still going on today and causes earthquakes.
The secular, ungodly, unbelieving world likes to accuse the Bible of getting its ideas from the world. For example, they say there are records of a flood event in literature older than the Bible. So they say the Bible adopted it. That is dung (to use the KJV word).
Just because God waited and used Moses to record the events long after the creation and the flood does not mean the Bible stole the story from other authors. All scripture is given by inspiration of God - not inspiration from reading or hearing other stories.
There, take that, you heathen gods.
lw216316 Does Heiser respond to comments here? Seems to be A mirrior.
I've not seen him respond on sites that are not his. He is very busy and seldom responds - married with 4 kids, his job, his books, his interviews and appearances - busy life - and so many comments are not worth responding to even if he did have time to read them.
lw216316 I like listening to Heiser. A very insightful teacher.
But I see the treatment here on two topics as problematic.
1) No dinosaurs in the bible.
• Why does the bible have to mention dinosaurs in a satisfactory way to prove cohabitation? A lot animals aren't mentioned in the bible. What do we do with them?
•Why does a correlation with other Mesopotamian texts preclude a more literal interpretation? I'm not convinced this must be understood this way. And if humans didn't cohabitate with dinosaurs I assume that would go for most of the fossil record as Well.
2) Negating meaning from the context of taking swipes at other deities.
I accept a lot of the claims about the biblical authors addressing / taking swipes at other deities but some interpretations seem to devolve into a baseless 'my dad is better then your dad you meanie' explanation negating real meaning in the text.
Like you, I don't agree with him on some subjects. He has access to documents and knowledge of Hebrew and Greek that I don't and I learn a lot and confirm some things I believe. Ken Johnson and Chuck Missler are similar.
Why would we obviously assume that these stories weren't around in both cultures before the time in which we date the oldest written version of said stories?
What facts about these texts actually preclude the biblical narrative being the oldest.
If we assume the Bibles timeline we might expect that the correct stories dealing with the creation narrative have existed in some form from the beginning. And that at the tower of Babel corrupted versions were made in particular separated cultures/language groups.
Then the stories and their clashing could be seen as a battle which was waging from the time of the separation of Babel.
Is it impossibke to read the Ugaritic and other ANE texts as being a theological opposition to the biblical narrative? Rather than the other way around? Even IF the biblical narrative wasn't written down first necessarily, but just being passed on orally.
Because it doesn't matter how old the stories were, the Bible was still written after. The elements of the story were chosen to be presented in such a way by the biblical writers at _the time of writing._ It would be an absurd statement to say that the biblical writers were only influenced by a true telling of events from thousands of years ago and not be influenced by the other works that were around in their day.
The whole point of inspiration is that these writers were in the right place, at the right time, with the right mindset, and the right _lived experiences_ to put these stories down on paper. Being exposed to these stories from other cultures was part of that lived experience. Your position undermines the very inspiration that's supposed to make the Bible special.
Excellent point!
I understand what he's getting at and agree with it. This is what the ancients meant by using this language of beasts and "dragons".
But.
It seems improbable that there was not a referant for them to gleen from, at least in much earlier times, in formulating these pictograpgic ideas.
It's hard in Job, not to consider the descriptions of the two beasts, just after those of the habits of other animals we still consider to exist, to not be that of some real animals. Indeed, the purpose of the descriptions is not to prove the existance of such animals but to show the power of God. In other contexs, they are more obviously represenative and not denoting real animals.
If I am to suppose that the ancients could not conceive how to describe a real animal, though their manner of it would be different, and that this is not translatable into English, or any other language, then I would have to conclude that the scriptures are unreadable in any form other than the original. I would be justified to throw the bible out and consider it questionable and be forced to follow only the Preists to tell me what and how to believe. This was the way of the ancient heathens and is the way of many Men today, in order to keep power to themselves over the masses.
But, having listened to Mike over some time, I do not get this from him. I have heard him many times say that this or that can be gathered from the English texts if only one would read them carefully and add some understanding of the way the ancients thought much of which I have drawn from reading the texts in English itself along with some study of the ancient near east from sources I am able to get and some of what Mr. Heiser has reveiled. It could not be the case that I agree with much of what Mr. Heiser says if it were not the case that much of this can be gathered from a carefull reading of translated texts.
But I have found his knowledge to be very helpfull in a more clear understanding of what the ancients would have in their minds when reading this material.
you've been listening to Dr. Jordan Peterson. You have got to have a conversation on video with him.
Roxanna Quan or you have. Heiser was obviously well aware of these stories as him being a scholar of the original languages from which they come.
@HanselManCan I agree JP took his stuff from similar sources as Heiser. But, I would love it to hear what JP would do with all the Elohim stuff. So I fully endorse a video conversation between these two.
Interesting how the devil is a red dragon in revelation. The abyss is connected to sea symbolism. The beast comes out of the sea and the abyss.
It seems to me that you are saying that we can't truthfully read and know the Bible unless we are ancient text translators or listen to scholars like you on the scripture. Trouble is, that even you scholars don't agree with each other.
Acts 8:30 Do you understand what you are reading? Unless the Scripture is understood in the times, language, and culture of the Biblical writers, we will miss the mark. I have been reading Scripture for nearly 45 years, the last years have been by far the best. Heiser's work and many others have been wonderful. Wassung's work on ANE Cosmology covers additional in depth information on the subject. It does take quite an effort to find the truth, if you hunger and thirst God is eager to work with you.
@@Tom-xg1kj The text answers that question by saying that the Spirit inspires the text. And these scholars don't have the Spirit if you haven't noticed.
@@blanktrigger8863 one of the most asinine things I've ever read 🤦♂️
@@rocketmanshawn Then you don't have the Spirit, my man, as evidenced by how willing you are to heap abuse while somehow still feeling justified.
Let me break this down for you.
The old testament is full of beliefs of gods and a God.
Then came Jesus who was promised in the garden of Eden. Was spoken of by prophets through the books.
He came and said let the thief steal no more. And remember God called him his first son/ All that came before him claiming to be a son f God was a liar and thief for God was in Jesus reconciling the world to himself.
kent hovind needs to hear this
He wouldn't hear any of it. He would just spout talking points and go sleep like a baby thinking everyone else is the heretic.
where is that picture from?
I think it's strange that Heiser mentions Babylon as the main party being argued against in Genesis 1, but he doesn't mention the older cultures that Babylon built themselves atop, which were the original creators of these stories: the Mesopotamians and Sumerians. All of these ANE mythologies are alternate stories upholding false gods as far back as Babel, and every group since then is criticized by scripture.
Making excessive reference to Babylon just gives to much credence to scripture being writen in the exile and not before. And that's a destructive worldview which ignores it's numerous contextual hints at much older cultures.
@@thetruthchannel349 so are the Mesopotamians, Sumerians and Acadians. Even Babel (not Babylon) is post flood, but it predates Babylon by thousands of years.
@@thetruthchannel349 akkad and sumer are directly on historical line with the later Mesopotamian cultures.
For them to be preflood there would have to be evidence of a massive cataclysm between them and that's just not there. I think it's more plausible that Sumer was related to Babel, and post language confusing by God, Akkad picked up where sumer left off after a brief coup and the rest spread out.
It would be easy for the date of the flood to be off, or our dating of Sumer to be off based on various technical methods of dating.
@@thetruthchannel349 well I can't really address the first without someone claiming there is some addressing that point satisfactorily.
If you go on for a regional flood perhaps you could make the case that the evidence would be slight, but most modern global flood models involve forces so great we should expect almost no evidence of predeluvian society to remain except some stones.
But regardless, if you've got any ideas like to see it.
@@thetruthchannel349 so we're in agreement on all but perhaps flood evidence. What, to you, is evidence that Sumer was preflood other than date?
And yes there's just stone, but that's also true of anyone in that region for hundreds of years after. The question is more what's the condition of the stones compared with simple age and wear and conquest?
@@thetruthchannel349 no of course, that's the problem. The person claiming there's evidence for it needs to quantify it.
I've generally assumed there isn't enough evidence of the ante-deluvian society left. And I've generally considered the presence of the massive sedimentary layers all over the earth were due to the flood. I've also assumed that it might be possible that the ante-deluvian society was global. Sumer was too local, and feels to me like Babel: a "first" society that talks about a golden age before the flood all in one place. This brings me to one the clearest reasons they're post-deluvian: they have a flood story.
Dinosaurs? I think the behemoth is a brontosaurus or some other similar huge creature. It can't be an elephant when its tail is described as being as big as a tree. Elephants have very small tails. Leviathan could be a sea dragon, something which could be considered a giant ancient aquatic reptile, like the Loch Ness Monster.
Zenyatta Mondatta My bet based on description (book of Job) is it’s a Rhino-like creature but on heavenly steroids 😝
You think Leviathan is a Plesiosaur?
@@onzkicg Paraceratherium?
No tiamat is based on leviathan and gensis 1to2 speaks on the dark waters chaos she is a sea creature like a leviathan water like dragon
Job in scripture god tell him not to mention her name and explained she is outta kurt power way more powerful than satan it's her who and were satan comes from
*Do Not worry(Matt**6:34**)*
*Or about these dagons, Think about the Salvation of your Soul and that of your neighbor*
Yet weren’t the “gods” or sea creatures or dragons or leviathan also created by God? If the beginning is talking about dealing with them then it’s not the beginning. I always wonder why there is darkness and chaos is the beginning of creation. Wouldn’t that mean either God created it or it’s not the beginning?
There is ancient rock art portraying dinosaurs in South America, Russia, Thailand, China, & Africa, but I’m sure that’s just coincidence...
The creature in Job sounds like a Brontosaurus.
I would only ever voice a point of disagreement with Dr. Heiser with respect and in question form. My respect for him is of such magnitude that in itself it is probably bordering on sinful. HOWEVER😂😂
Doesnt the creation stories of one mighty celestial giant "attacking" and "cleaving" etc another, sound like a stylized, mythologized telling of what it might have looked like if The Electric Universe/Velikovsky's "worlds in collision" theories on planetary collisions in our solar system Did occur during a reshuffling/repositioning due to attracting another planet or small system of planets? I SO strongly believe that everything in our Bible is grounded in a "nuts and bolts" reality. Often we are confused because we are either data depleted or misdirected by "experts". Frequently accidentally. Look at how much clarity The Dr has supplied us all with just a very simple formula of approach...
🙏❤️😁🇨🇦🍻
God Bless You Michael.
I hope he shows you ALL the people you've touched worldwide 👍
Someone convince me the image is not dungeons and dragons.
In light of this, why would I not see my God as just another god? Struggling with this. Just another God among the others in the Ancient Near East. And so localized within the ANE. 😩
Please watch his other videos on 'the watchers'. It puts into perspective the existence of other 'gods' and the God above all, Yahweh. Hope this help you.
@@justanobserver8283 deut says clearly when the most high divided the nations Yahwehs allotted INHERITANCE was jacob (supplanter coincedently)
Yahweh is the Most High God. There shall be no other gods before Him. He has asserted this in His commandments, and even the demons of hell know this is true. There ARE other gods. But Yahweh created them all and He is the Most High.
This is part of what he's trying to do, I think. If you take these people seriously you lose any concept of YHWH's transcendence.
so you dont think that pre-flood man saw dinosaurs?
yes , wait don't you believe in evolution and they talk about caveman, strange isn't that the bible speacks of that too
Yeah is that where people love that possible except for with Jesus
Enoch: 7.5 And they began to sin against birds, and against animals, and against reptiles, and against fish, and they devoured one another's flesh, and drank the blood from it
Genesis 6:12 (nkjv): for ALL flesh had corrupted their way
All these fossils caught in a sudden event? Like…. A flood?did the watchers corrupt the animals as well?
So God didnt make everything in 6 days?
No. Gen 1-11 is a Polemic. Look up Dr Michael Heiser lecture on Gen 1. What is amazing to me that it's been know in Scholarly circles for hundred of years that Gen 1-11 is a polemic (not science) very little of that gets to the average Joe in Church.
God never said how he created anything but it was intentional. This is why everything seems Old but also designed.
Plz watch Ken Ham/ Jason L VS Hug Ross debate the meaning of a day for starters. Again Michael Heiser Talking about creation.
One last thing YEC is a recent movement which should cause you to question if it's true or not. Good luck on your journey. :)
@@jaredyoung5353 YEC is only new as a counter-old-age movement, not as a cosmology. The old age ideologies started with the allegorical schools of thought, which themselves began in the gnostic, alexandrian philosophical schools, etc. Origin and Augustine loved this interpretive technique. Even Hugh Ross doesn't rely on allegory.
Heiser makes a great point about old worldviews and polemic, but that doesn't mean there might be more truth there than we give credit. When you study the history of how we arrived at the old age isn't not as scientific as people are lead to believe.
The fact is, past a certain point we don't know as much as we think we do.
Yes he did, people can’t let evolution go however.
@@ngkngk875 it's pretty deeply ingrained in our cultural assumptions nowadays.
1 day is a thousand years.
Read Job 40. Where God speaks About the behemoth. It explains a sauropod. Go check out Genesis apologetics. There is dinosaurs in the bible. You need to remember Adam named them then they disappeared during the flood of Noah and when we found them we created the word dinosaur. Also a unicorn in the Bible is talking about a one horned rhinoceros.
it explains satan
When someone says "how would the biblical writers have known" when the authors of the text over and over again say that it was inspired and that it was written by the prophets that's a bad sign. What he's saying behind the curtain is that "YHWH doesn't have the ability to prophetically reveal the existence of dinosaurs", despite the fact that in Job he also prophetically reveals the behavior of the constellations (google that btw cause it's amazing).
He's relying way too much on pagan texts. Leviathin is NOT a chaoskampf because Leviathin is created by YHWH. It has nothing to do with Creation because the tanninim (of which Leviathin and Behemoth are two) were created on the 4th day and Tehom is created in the beginning. The language of Chaos is fundamentally different in the bible because the pagan magical system depends on a neglectful origin.
People have to learn to listen to what this dude says. I also don't agree that dinosaurs aren't mentioned in the bible as living amongst human beings (although note that Leviathin and Behemoth did) but his interpretation methods are very anti-biblical, not just non-biblical. This is not the right way to prove the point.
I would also include that Leviathin in Job (as it has been revealed to me) is a revelation about the End. The beast from the sea in Revelation is Leviathin and the one from the earth is Behemoth. Job saw the Revelation: "My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen." It is what Job saw in the Theophany which is the answer to question "why do the righteous suffer". And whatever this answer is, it is an answer that the Divine Council can't provide as that theology is why is being rejected by Job as it doesn't produce justice.
It's always depressing to hear an interesting biblical lecture and then to go to the comments and read the stupid comments from Christians.
Ignore em. this stuff is great.
he is wrong in this case. Many ancient cultures talk about them including the Bible.
U idiot
Behemoth is a saropod dinosaur and leviathan is a Dinosucus.
The discription of behemoth is word for word the description of a saropod dinosaur 🦕.
Chief's of GOD'S creatures on land and water.