Fantom vs Montage: Polyphony Wars; A Head to Head Comparison
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- Опубліковано 28 січ 2023
- This video does a simple comparison between the Roland Fantom and the Yamaha Montage's polyphony management. Both keyboards will play the same exact song through MIDI using similar sounds. Which one do you think did better in the polyphony test? Let me know in the comments!
Fantom Polyphony Problems Video Link:
• Roland Fantom Polyphon...
Thanks, Darrick, for a great video as always. I have both Montage 8 and Fantom 7. I was considering to sell the Montage but now I will keep it after seeing your video. Thanks, again.
If you are not having issues with your polyphony on the Fantom, you are good to go. Everyone's playing style is different. Some people never run into an issue. The songs I often "cover" have lots of sustained pads, big piano sounds etc. When I watch the live performances of the songs I often have to learn there is normally a laptop on stage for the keyboard player. They are using Keyscapes, Pianoteq, Native Instruments and something like Omnisphere. And quite frankly the Roland struggles to keep up.
@@darrickkeels6387 I mainly play guitar and am a beginner to piano and keyboard, not like you, an accomplished pianist. So I do not have the polyphony issue yet. I love Fantom for its sequencer and synth sounds, and will keep it even with this polyphony issue. I also bought AKAI MPC Key 61 after watching your videos for that, for the same purpose to create backing tracks as yours. You're my trailblazer! Thank your for your good works, Darrick.
Thanks for the video! You’re real good in what you do
Great stuff Derrick, subbed.
Very important aspect, thanks, master!
Awesome review. With me having a laptop I don’t worry about polyphony. One advantage that Roland has is that at a fraction of the cost and an awesome controller you have access to Zenology, which features alot of the Roland Pianos. Hardware workstations should all catchup with the times. Since processing chips are small and most workstations have computers they all need to step up their game.
Darrick, thank you for this video. I didn’t realize polyphony was a thing till I saw your video. This will definitely help me a lot. I was looking at the Fantom for a new keyboard and I LOVE layering sounds. On my laptop I layer 5 sounds at any given moment so to see the Fantom give out at 3 layers was disappointing.
I understand that I’m comparing a laptop to a keyboard but they seriously cost about the same.. MacBook pro with a Casio keyboard and MIDI controller is probably less than $4k
Thanks again
One of the things I love about the Prophet 10 is its voice allocation style. Instead of going round robin through the voices when you hit the same key multiple times it keeps using the same voice. Therefore you can play other notes and the original voice only gets cut off if 10 other keys are played. Imagine this style of voice allocation in a 128 or 256 note polyphonic synth. You could layer quite a bit and not have dropouts!
nice work❤
Thanks. I appreciate it.
Was looking at getting an Roland Integra 7 or Kurzweil K2500RS sound module. You gave me something to consider. Thinking the older Roland hardware may handle this better but I need to check both Intergra 7 and K2500RS for polyphony. The Kurzweil is the low risk choice.
In my opinion, The Yamaha Montage is better than the Roland Fantom, at also the sounds as well as the polyphony.
Cannot agree more. The Montage also has a far better user interface. I find the Fantom user interface very confusing with its scenes and zones. Also the Fantom you can only use the same arpeggio for all the zones in a scene. The Montage can use up to 8 arpeggios for a whole performance: one for each part and played independent of each other. I only wished Yamaha added a step sequencer to create your own arpeggios. You can record a phrase and convert that into an arpeggio, however I would like separate step sequencer for that.
Ive also had many issues with Roland products with this problem. HAve you ever considered the Kurzweil K series? I recently picked up 2- K2700 boards. One for home and one at Church. The way Kurz handles this issue for me and has always been exceptional. Ive always had Kurzweils since the early 90's To me, they always worked well in whatever I was doing. Very good video Darrick. Thank you for posting.
Thanks for sharing that my friend
Thank you for watching!
Hi sir, I really like the video.... I am wondering what model of each are you using? I bought the latest MODX 8+ (Plus) and had notes dropping after only a handful.....like literally less than 20, and then it would just stop playing altogether for a few notes and then come back in, dropping the sustain after a mere second while the pedal is still suppressed. They replaced the piano and the second one did the same thing.
I decided to go with a new Roland Phantom 8 last week. I haven't had any issues with polyphony as of yet, but also haven't put any juice to it like you have yet either as I'm still learning the system.
Thank you for such a well-thought out video!
I am using the Montage 7. I cannot speak to what the issue was that you had with the MODX8+. I would have to see what sounds you were choosing etc. Like I said in the video, I am not a big fan of the polyphony in the Montage either. 128-voice polyphony in the AWM-2 engine and 128-voice polyphony in the FMX engine is very easy to hit considering the architecture of the product. The Yamaha Motif ES which launched in 2003 had 128-voice polyphony. (Albiet only one sound engine) That is two decades ago! I would like all of the manufacturers to become more innovative and really bring some game-changing products to the market. It becomes harder and harder for me to truly justify the cost as software and MIDI controllers get better and better.
Thorough as always..... Question, how does the polyphony on the keys 61 compare to the fanthom-0 series? Could you do a demo on that? I'm curious cuz I own both...
The polyphony is the same across the 61,76, and 88
@@jerzboybeats9555 I'm speaking in comparison to the keys 61... I know the polyphony is the same on the roland series.... Hence why my question is formed the way that it is.
I find the MPC Key 61 to have better polyphony overall versus the Fantom-0. Each plugin seems to have its own dedicated polyphony. This really helps.
@@darrickkeels6387 My man! I appreciate you greatly, as I'm sure that the community does as well! The information that you give is priceless, & thorough as always! Thanks again my good brother! 👍🏾
To make those tests complete you can also change NOTE PRIORITY from LAST to LOUDEST for the tones of your Roland Fantom and save those tones as user tones. I am not sure if this applies to SN tones, but applies for PCMS in Juno or FA so should in Zen Core. You will find this setting in COMMON tab in Tone Edit. But frankly speaking we should have much more usable polyphony in Rolands just with factory preset tones.
Even if I change the "Note Priority" the notes will still cut out. Just different ones. On the Montage no special parameters had to be adjusted. It just worked. And I was working with 128-voices not "256-voices." The Roland polyphony architecture is simply behind its competition.
@@darrickkeels6387 I get it, thanks.
Great vid.you have just changed my mind on buying a Fantom 7. At the price of these things you expect more. I work alot with midi and this would be a disaster for me.
If you can try one out, it may be worth it to see if you have issues. But I just wish the keyboard manufacturers gave us better internals for our money. $4000 is a lot to spend to have such issues when there are so many software options these days. I think HW keyboards of this nature really need a shot of innovation.
Hi, great vídeo! Congras! It would be great to have a comparisson between Roland Fantom 8 and the new Korg PA5x 88 ;) I'm in the fence which one should I buy! I'm very bad at programing, so I want something simple with great sounds ready to use! Thanks :)
If you hate programming, the Korg PA5X is a better choice more than likely.
@@darrickkeels6387 thanks for your feedback Darrick 😉 have you tried it? The 88 Keys version? If Yes, what do you think about the Keys, regarding piano feel vs fantom 8?
Some people will almost always create complex sound stacks that will either hit the poliphony or processing cieling. Thats why it still today is a good idea to have a 2'nd keyboard or module with some usefull sounds for stacking. Even the Kronos theoretically have 9 different engines with combined 1000+ notes poliphony or something like that, you will allmost always run out of processing power before you hit the max poliphony no matter how you distribute the sounds because it has to distribute the processing between both the used engines and what effects you have running. My feeling is, you still have to have a pretty competent PC to match a good workstation in power. And when you think of how old the Atom cpu in the Kronos is, it still after It's discontinued amazes me how much Korg got out of that silly little cpu compared to what we have available in our computers today and it still handles sample streaming from the SSD better than Kontakt. I still to this day think the Roland Phantom (big one) is way overpriced compared to what it brings. There is caveats with the Kronos too, but to this day none of the competitors much newer designed synths is handling seemlesly sound switching as good as the Kronos. Even it has 10 years on tha back, Iwould actually rather invest in an Integra module and stick with whatever you got of favorite Keyboard, It's extra poliphony and there is many good sounds available in it
I have a Roland FA and have a similiar issue I am still a lover of roland but I wont use it as my main keyboard anymore because of the polyphony issue.....Im getting a Fantom 0/Flagship eventually but it will be my secondary/aux board....I really think it is more suitable for that usage....Looking at a Nord Piano or a maybe even getting a motif es rack......The Roland is a great master keyboard
Really considering this synthesizer now my hopes have failed me please I need advice
Both keyboards are amazing machines. Cant go wrong picking either one, but the new Montage M8x polyphony is next level + the polyphonic aftertouch is the new standard. That Fantom 16-button step sequencer however is without peer, and their sounds library is something Yamaha does not lean nearly as hard into for after-sale upgrade.
I feel that me and you have a real connection on how to deal with keyboards all through our lives but still need some advice? Derrek please help me with this?
Switching performances with the v-piano it`s possible on the fantom, I see pianists doing that all the time. The Fantom doesn`t have modes anymore, like a live mode or performance mode. The thing is you have to use the part 1 for the pianos. There are videos on youtube showing that, combining v-pianos with synths and switching parts with no cutting sounds. Check out Gattobus videos, he does that in some videos using the tone remain with v-piano.
Or what do you suggest the Nautilus or the Mod X +still on planning on getting the Montage 2 in October ?
How do you use your keyboards? Do you play live? Do you want to make songs on the keyboard itself? Do you use it to create and perform backing tracks? Etc
Hi Darrick, can you stack another 128 notes of polyphony from the FM engine onto that scene you created in the Montage without having polyphony issues?
Blessings from Mexico
Yes you can. The FMX sound engine has its own polyphony that doesn't effect the AWM-2 engine in any way
@@darrickkeels6387 Thank you very much for answering another question, in your personal opinion are SuperNatural acoustic pianos as bad as people say compared to MODX and Montage? I ask for the SN because I have a Fantom 0
@Asael Tapia I personally like Yamaha's acoustic pianos better. In general, I prefer all of their acoustic instruments in the Yamaha. But the Supernatual Pianos still sound good in the Fantom. Just a matter of personal taste.
Hello Darrick .
What do you think personaly.
When you use (Fantom ,Montage, Kronos)
What sounds you like to play from montage ?
What sounds you like to play from fantom ?
What sounds you like to play from kronos ?.
How you use all three keyboards in live Montage, fantom, kronos?
I like the sampled instruments that emulate "real instruments" from the Montage. So any kind of horns, flutes, pianos, lead guitars, etc...I typically lean toward the Montage. If I have a complicated gig with lots of dense layers, splits, a massive setlist and I need a keyboard that is diverse as possible, that is what I use the Kronos for. It's like a Swiss Army Knife, capable of handling lots of different tasks, especially with its robust setlist system. When I need classic synth sounds or if I am covering 80's music the Fantom is often my go to keyboard. They do overlap in function though. I normally have at least two keyboards on a gig. If the gig requires lots of acoustic piano sounds, I normally have the RD-2000 with me because I like the keybed for pure piano playing. I will have another keyboard on top. It all depends on the gig and what my duties are as the musician.
@@darrickkeels6387 thanks for your kind reply ☺
@@darrickkeels6387 so according to you If i give numbers to the keyboards.
On the top of the list .
1st is Kronos [10 out of 10]
2nd one is montage [7 out of 10]
3rd is Fantom [5 out of 10]
Am I right ?
Great video as always; still shows (in my opinion) why the Kronos is STILL the king of the workstation keyboards!
I fell for the banana in the tailpipe and bought the Fantom…and regretted it ever since! Sounds, beat making, the setup of the board itself; not a fan at all.
Should have just stayed with the Integra 7 for my Roland sounds and saved considerable coin…
I did try and tell people that FA/Integra was the inherently better tech. Ignored of course.
So, what system requirement is enough to create ambient music with pads, arpegiators, drums, bass? Any Daw with Apple macbook at least 8gb RAM and Midi keyboard?
Have you done any firmware updates?Do you have Roland Cloud?There might be corrections from any of the two.
I am wanting one of these Fantom's in the near future...Has Roland issued a fix?
You already know how I feel about the Fantom because of this reason among others. However, as you stated, not extremely happy with the Montage or Modx either. Yes in this particular situation it certainly out performed the Fantom, but if you had added a string patch to that setup on the Montage it would have been cutting out as well. On my Modx I downloaded a piano that sounded just as good "live" as the CFX but only took one channel. That helped a lot and aided much in my layering for live use. That very layer you use, I use ALL the time live. Its imperative for a big full sound on stage. I hope all the manufacturers will happen upon these videos you are making and understand we need and demand more. We are not knocking you as companies and your brands. We love all of the brands and they all have great sounding products. However, they all need to get their acts together. You cant tell me that an Ipad should have more power than a 4k dollar state of the art keyboard. Every company went through the roof on the prices of these work stations and they kept on raising prices because we kept paying the ridiculous prices. These companies need to get their acts together. We demand more and deserve more for keeping you in business all of these years. Quit pawning off your old sounds and old technology on us and charging triple what they used to be. Quit being lazy and Innovate! We as musicians, especially the professionals.... have had enough. I vow never to buy another new flagship product workstation until this is fixed. And that's from any and every manufacturer. Seriously, its 2023. Get it together!
That is where I am at with this whole thing. But when I demand better processors for our money, people actually defend the companies. They say, "R&D costs too much. More people buy cellphones and iPads than people who buy keyboards. Computer processors get hot and require fans...etc." My Presonus digital mixer has an old dual core processor in it. It's capable of processing a gate, compressor, EQ, effects, etc, on every channel simultaneously. It can handle a total of 286 individual processors at the same time. It can send 64 channels out for recording to a DAW and receive 64 channels in all while handling 286 different EQs, compressors, gates, etc. I don't even know if it has a fan because I have never heard one kick on. Presonus has to manufacture hardware too just like keyboard manufacturers. It has motorized faders, a 7-inch touchscreen, metal chassis, etc. The mixer above mine has a Quad-Core processor that can handle 526 simultaneous processors (gates, limiters, compression, etc) all while recording and receiving input commands from the user. My digital mixer costs me less than my Fantom by $1000. And at the time of purchase Presonus was a much smaller company than Roland. I know it is not an apples to apples comparison. But my Fantom can only have 16 simultaneous digital insert effects at a time. A few master effects, a couple sends/returns etc. Most of its PCM samples are tiny samples from the 90's. They by themselves cannot require that much processing power. The Presonus is literally receiving an analog signal in, converting it to digital, running it through several layers of processing , converting it back to analog, and sending it back out to up to 32 different channels simultaneously. All this is done so quickly that your ear perceives no latency. Don't tell me Roland can't give us more for our money. They're lazy. All of the brands are because there is no competition. Hence we are still dealing with 128-voice polyphony after 23 years! Yet nothing remotely close to my mixer existed 23 years ago. Innovate or get left! My keyboards can no longer keep up with the demands I require. I love hardware but I can no longer justify the purchase of it, when internally it is so dated.
@@darrickkeels6387 Very well said and actually I think that is a very fair comparison. As a matter of fact I can use the same scenario with my X32 which came out in 2012 which is very close to the same year the Kronos arrived. Granted the Kronos IMO is a level still above the others, the X32 has had recent updates as of the last year or two and has similar processing power as the Presonus without the touch screen of course, but immense power. So people buy more ipads and iphones sure, but they don't cost 4 thousand dollars. A better comparison for the Fantom would be an Ipad with a slick interface loaded with a whopping 250meg of memory. Might look awesome but cant do anything with it. The excuses are valid no longer. Pay attention manufacturers! You are own the way out if you don't catch up.
Sounds like you have a MODX not a Montage. I have a Montage 8 and have yet to hit the polyphony wall. He could have added numerous strings to that Performance and it still would not have cutout any notes on the Montage. He could have then additionally added numerous more strings and sounds via the other FM-X engine on top of that and not drop a single note, because there is an additional 128 stereo polyphony that gets added via the FM-X engine, which I use. I have Performances using all 16 PARTs at the same time via sequencing and playing via KBD CTRL, and 0 drops!!
Ya know, I felt the same way about the Korg Kronos (I tried to use the same type of layers I would on a Motif...it was so bad, I had to use another board as a master controller and run sounds on both). Because I used Yamaha Motifs for so long, I compared polyphony and processing to it. I think the only current board I haven't had major polyphony issues with was the Roland RD-2000, and that's only because I used the piano engine more than I used the Supernatural pianos. Just like in your video, those pianos couldn't keep up...which was strange because I had no issues when I used the MKS sounds. Zencore sounds great, but they really gotta work on the polyphony...it's 2023, for crying outloud🤣
Kyn!!!! What's up Buddy!!!
You have to put the Kronos in live mode not the default of studio mode. You won’t have polyphony issues and unless you are just making noise lol
@@just908blaze1 Wait, there's a live mode? As in a mode other than Combi??? Okay, let me call my homie up and tell him about this because I am embarrased🙃
@@darrickkeels6387 What's up bro!!!!!
@@wunderkyn it’s in global. You go to global and go down you will see an option that has studio mode selected by default. Change it to live mode. Now when you mute layers that you aren’t using they don’t eat up polyphony in the background.
It looks like Yamaha's montage is controlled by MIDI, but the montage's MIDI input seems to be multitimbral and can only handle one part tone per MIDI channel. How do you control tones made up of multiple parts via MIDI?
One thing you didn't mention about the Montage is that there is an Additional 128 stereo polyphony via the 2nd engine (FM-X) on top of the (AWM2) sample based engine that you just demoed. The Montage can easily handle more than twice what you demoed off that single sound engine. I have Performances on my Montage 8 whereby I am playing all 16 PARTs at once (half via sequencing) using both sound engines for a total of 256 stereo polyphony with 0 notes dropping!
He did mention that before he played the midi file for montage
Fantom ❤️
Using 4 of only available 8 parts for a single piano on the Montage is a lot more of a limitation than the loss of Scene remain on the Fantom from using the V-Piano engine. Fantom also has the organ engine with full polyphony. Montage doesn’t even have a graded hammer action.
You could use a single part piano on the Montage, leaving you with 7 available to play from the keybed. I used a "polyphony hungry" piano on purpose to see if any notes would drop out. None did. This video is not a comparison between keybeds or engines. Yes the Fantom has a VTW organ engine. But the Montage has an 8-operator FM engine with its own polyphony. So technically I could use a Pad and EP from that engine and free up polyphony for drums bass, organ or whatever. But I could layer any piano in the Montage over the Pad and EP in this video and get no notes dropping out and retain "scene remain." The same cannot be said for the Fantom, which is newer.
@@darrickkeels6387 Vpiano engine. If you're using other pianos you don't know WTF you're doing.
On the flagship Fantom, Scene remains works with all of the engines. Vpianos switch flawlessly with scene remain. Scene remain is limited on Fantom-0 ONLY if use more than 8 layers. I may be wrong, but the Montage and Modx only allows 8 layers. Both Fantoms allow 16 layers.
There are polyphony issues with Yamaha and Roland. However, your demonstration is different from my experience. It takes a lot for my flagship Fantom to cut out. My 8 layers on my Fantom-0 hold up well too. What are we doing differently?
On the Flagship scene remain does not work with the V-Piano sound engine. I demonstrate that here: ua-cam.com/video/aA79-IIveEU/v-deo.html. Go to 4 minutes and 20 seconds and you will see. The V-Piano sound engine works on its own Behavior Modeling Controller chip separately from standard Zencore sounds and scene remain is not supported due to the architecture of the keyboard. Hence the V-Piano can only be used on Zone 1 and not the others. The same is true for the VTW engine. Scene remain is not supported due to the chip structure and the VTW engine is not available on all zones either. On the Fantom-0 when scene remain is activated you can only access 8 zones. You will have to deactivate the feature to access all 16 zones. There is no V-Piano engine on the Fantom-0 series because it has only half the BMC chips the flagship has. And yes the Montage only allows you to control 8 parts from the actual keyboard. You can access all 16 via MIDI though. But the Montage is not a workstation like the Fantom. It is a synthesizer. So, its aim is really live performance, not production. The vast majority of players are not using 16 layers at the same time during a live performance. But people will use more than 8 tracks if they are trying to record a song in a sequencer. The Montage is not really set up well for the latter function because, again, it is not a workstation. However, even though the Fantom allows for 16 zones, it becomes a mute point if the polyphony cannot handle it. Imagine it I wanted to add a bass and drums to what I played. The keyboard couldn't handle the current zones, it would sound even worse if I added more tracks. The reason why you probably do not get voices dropping out is probably simply due to your playing style and favorite sound choices. So the Fantom is perfect for you. But someone with a playing style like mine will absolutely run into problems when layering pianos and pads on the Fantom. The reason I created a MIDI file in the demonstration is so that no one could claim I played the Montage any differently from the Fantom. What I demonstrated was that with only 128-voice polyphony (in the AWM-2 sound engine) the Montage could outperform the Fantom's "up to 256-voices " and require no workarounds. Also, the user is not forced to give up "scene remain" to avoid polyphony issues. That's not to say I am satisfied with the polyphony on the Montage. I'm not. But in many scenarios it outperforms the Fantom.
What you're doing differently.. this bozo is layering 3 pianos for no reason.. and playing a piano part without ever taking his foot off the sustain pedal. That's what you're doing wrong.. you're actually using the keyboard instead of forcing an absurd unrealistic scenario.
So a 2010-2011 keyboard, handles polyphony better than a 2016 keyboard which handles polyphony better than a 2019 keyboard. The irony of all this. 😅
Perhaps the next generation of keyboards should just salvage the processing power of laptops/iPhones/iPads, have all the sounds in the app, create a companion MIDI keyboard that has good surface control options with an excellent keybed and then you won't have problems of Roland claiming their Fantom-2019 to be the best keyboard out there but in reality, it's just a JV-2080/XV-5080 with a new paint job.
Yup adding a bunch of features, longer samples, etc without providing the necessary processor power will result in this.
I love the Fantom, but not for the PCM sounds. It's the 90s, which is a bit disappointing, but the Zen-Core VA and Model Expansion are the best things about Fantom, beating the synth sounds of other manufacturers, but unfortunately Montage is more reliable in many cases. I only heard the polyphony problem in the Zen-Core VA and Model Expansion expanders, but obviously because I use them. It is understandable that Zen-Core VA and Model Expansion polyphony depends a lot on the filter type, effects and Unison mode, but it is a shame for PCM sounds. I think Yamaha and Korg solved this issue better. Unfortunately, the entire system here is Zen-Core, even the Model Expansions, and Zen-Core also includes PCM sounds. It would have been better to choose PCM and all the Zen-Core VA and Model Expansion stuff separately. I don't think this is a good solution. The Korg Kronos has separate polyphony for all 9 engines, which is great. also for Montage, AWM2, and FM-X. If Yamaha would finally not be idle and do Analog Modeling, e.g. (AN1x engine, decent Hammond Organ type, it would have the tools, because there is a YC-61, and a decent piano model, because the Montage piano is great, but most of the 4 parts so there are only 12 parts left for the sequencer. I think the Yamaha is much more reliable, its arpeggios are wonderful, you can't create your own arpeggios in the Fantom, but still I think the Fantom fits my musical style better, but there is nothing to beautify on it, Fantom still has room to improve and it's annoying that it's been over 1 year and there's no new update.
@John Stephens Zen-Core VA is not the 90s. It is quite versatile and can do many things that should not be confused with the previous Roland FA SuperNatural Synth Tone. Many things have been added, so it is quite interesting and you can program various sounds with it. Zen-Core VA may be interesting for those who can program their own sounds in addition to the factory sounds, or who use a couple of Roland Cloud soundsets that have been programmed for it. These always sound really good. As for the sounds of the 90s, I thought that there are many JV-1080, JV-2080 and XV-5080 sounds that were made in 2000, but most of the sounds are from the older JV series, and the newer sounds are already they are obsolete. There is nothing wrong with adding the sounds of the past, because they were cool things, but an additional SuperNatural sound would be needed now, because the acoustic sounds are very weak in certain areas. E.g. guitars, drums, brass, horns, but I would also add more, because SuperNatural Acoustic knows many playing techniques on different instruments, but many things are still incomplete, and SuperNatural is 10 years old. At one time, Roland always came up with something new, but in 2008 that changed. The only thing that was new was SuperNatural Acoustic and Synth Tone, but since then the sound set has not been updated in general. Zen-Core VA is a good idea, but it's not good that PCM, and Zen-Core VA relies on polyphony anyway. Other manufacturers add their own polyphony to each. For example, if you use Model Expansion and Zen-Core PCM sounds together in a song, you quickly run out of polyphony, as Derrick showed in the video.
👍🏾
If the Roland fantom was a car it would get recalled. It costs the same as a good used car as well.
The workaround for the Ford Pinto was to not get hit from behind.
Если перевести с v piano на любой инструмент, но с другим midi каналом, переключение сцен возможно не приведёт к потере звука на v piano
According to the manual Scene Remain is not available on the V-Piano sound engine. As soon as you switch scenes the piano will cut out.
@@darrickkeels6387 А если не переключать саму сцену, а переключить клавиатуру в этой же сцене на другую зону (другой канал midi) так тоже нельзя? Обрежет?
@@alhomst66 Oh, I understand now. No if the instruments are in the same scene it will not cut off. So, I could select a different zone and the V-Piano would continue to sustain. However I could not select multiple zones at the same time. I could switch from the V-Piano to the RD-1000 sound if I want to. But I could not switch from the V-Piano and play the RD-1000 sound with the pad sound. So if all you are doing is switching single sounds it works. But if you want to switch between various layered or split sounds you cannot.
@@darrickkeels6387 I guess he's talking about possibly setting up multiple pianos inside 1 scene and using Keyboard switch groups to switch between active zones.
This *could work for some people, but I usually have clicks, drones, and tracks running in my scenes, so it won't work for me.
@@keneokpareke1753 Ah yes. That would work.
Hey Derrick do you get pay for mentioned the montage 😢nyc
No I do not get paid
in 2023, it's frustrating that Yamaha is still stuck in 128-note polyphony for most of their sound engines.
Sure, their samples are some of the highest quality out there, but we have the technology to expand memory so that quality can translate into higher polyphony. Why Yamaha doesn't do that puzzles me.
And I say that as a Yamaha fangirl who owns a Clavinova, Montage, YC61 and a CP88.
Agreed.
The biggest problem with Fantom is 512 user presets. And in Montage 5192 presets can be loaded. Roland came out later than Kronos, Montage has a lot of synths on board, but 512 presets is a complete shame! I have the Montage, I also criticize Yamaha, because they are sleeping and don't want to wake up. Ultimately, every synths has its pros and cons.
If Yamaha woke up and added some extra features to Montage, it would be a better workstation. And so Fantom is are Frankenstein, like Montage, or not fish and not meat. If Fantom, with all its set of engines, had enough space to store user presets, maybe I would have changed Montage to Fantom. But with 512 presets, I don't need it for nothing.
Do you still have the Nord?
I do indeed!
@@darrickkeels6387 Polyphony test that Nord, lol. I was thinking....you could do a ii-V-vi progression, the official Roland Polyphony diss. I know you wouldn't, but i laughed thinking about it. It would be a ii-V-vi instead of ii-V-I to clown the 256 polyphony.
@@jp4751 😄😄
@@darrickkeels6387 Gotta make sure you are in minor, don't want it to sound happy, lol. Real talk though, Roland has had some great products that could have been more.....ie the MV8000/8800. Great product demonstrators, not the most user friendly, customer feedback experience...you decide. I remember years ago buying the srx ep pianos and there was an obvious split point between tine and bark, lol.
@@darrickkeels6387 Just watched some videos for the stage 4, you will be excited to know it has 120 polyphony.
👌 fantom 0 vs modx pls😅
Get yourself a Kodamo EssenceFM MK2 I have worked that thing to death and never ran out of polyphony. It's an FM dream machine. Too bad most people who reviewed it on youtube didn't really know how FM works.
You can't even find a new Montage for sell right now..
Yeah everyone is out. I think it is a supply chain issue. But Yamaha did just launch the MODX Plus keyboards, so I am not sure all of what they are up to.
The Roland is a win-win.
(At least in most cases)
And the winner is.... Casio privia px s5 (256 note polyphony)
My opinion, Roland for me exists V-Piano only (absolutely) but Yamaha piano sounds are far away better at my preference.
Filters affecting polyphony is a design flaw
I agree
At this point, you should start a series called: Polyphony Wars! Comparing polyphony between stage pianos, workstations and other types of synths. This will expose the lack of interest in manufacturers to put decent hardware (main processor, RAM and SSD expandability options) in instruments and focusing on profit-margins and increasing revenue rather innovating and making things easier for all kinds of musicians.
I understand that maintaining the business and building investor and share-holder relations are (extremely) important, but what is the point if your customers start experiencing big problems on products across all ranges? Still focused on them (pleasing share-holders), or fixing your products to earn customer loyalty and a good and healthy brand reputation? Everybody has gotten greedy now.
Ah Roland, Yamaha, how the mighty have fallen.
More disappointed with Roland, since keyboards are their specialty. 3.5 years with the FANTOM platform and still not at full potential. Those BMC chips (even though weak) can still be utilized properly, but development for a $4000 synth has been paused, and left unfinished. Where is the next update?
At this point, I await the new synth from Korg, seeing how their PA5X arranger turned out (even with the bugs), I'm more excited for the Nautilus's successor. Copy the interface and workflow from FANTOM, apply it with the power of the new synth engines (and refined existing ones) that Korg delivers (along with the hardware and polyphony management system), the connectivity of FANTOM, and you have a workstation killer. Somebody please don't let us down.
Sorry about not dm'ing you earlier Darrick, past few weeks since 1st Jan have been a bit hectic. Just popped back for a quick peak a few days ago. Take care.
Nothing wrong with the Fantom Able. I just don't understand how it works and what it is😄😄! 64 or 54 voices is plenty for a keyboard that launched in 2019.😄😄. Always good to see you on the channel my friend. And you don't need to apologize to me. I know life gets hectic. I was just going to pick your brain lol!
@@darrickkeels6387 I understand Darrick, but after three years of updates, it's sad how they haven't fixed polyphony issues or managed to mitigate it at the least. I'll send you an email early next week so we can chat. Take care my friend.
Please consider the following regarding polyphony and your test...1st as far as I know, most digital synths count polyphony as one note polyphony per oscillator. For example, a stereo piano sample is using Left piano wave sample, plus right piano wave sample. That equals TWO oscillators/two samples simultaneously = two notes of polyphony! So when most manufacturers say 128 note poly, they really mean 128 notes mono/64 stereo.
Also, your test hasn't figured the exact number of oscillators actually used in the specific programs. It has nothing to do with how many channels/sound programs are being used. For example..Montage may have a two channel performance that uses a piano and strings combination, but every time you play a key-down-event, depending how hard you strike and where on the keyboard you played, some samples are programed to play and others not. Then there are the release envelope times combined with the sustain pedal's hold times. When you factor all of this and try to make a test between those two very different synths, you absolutely can not make this kind of comparison. You must create an INITIALIZED program first, then chose only single sample waveform...save that new program and go from there. Even then, if two different manufacturers stated the same polyphony, they will handle it differently. The Montage is 128 STEREO wave-forms + 128 FM note-on events which equals 256 true polyphony plus an architecture that is robust to handle this type of heavy key-down/sustain events all day long. There is more to this polyphony performance spec then I have stated here. Feel free to respond and I will do my best to help. I did not look at the Roland polyphony claim, but this has been the situation with synths for the longest time.
I think people assume that I don't know how polyphony works. I understand when manufacturers say 128-voices they don't mean "notes" but voices...meaning oscillators. In the opening of the video I said that I wanted to compare how the two keyboards HANDLE polyphony. In other words I am referring to the polyphony architecture, not the number of voices each one has. Playing 64 oscillators on both keyboards will render the same result, of course. It's simple math. But polyphony architecture is not simple math and far more useful to most musicians. For example, Nord's current piano engine polyphony is 120 voices. However, Nord only uses one voice per note. So you can play 110 notes (it reserves about 10 notes or so for seamless sound transitions) simultaneously with no dropouts. So even though its piano polyphony is less than the Montage it actually performs better. Because the Montage requires 4 parts and several elements per part to create their premium piano sounds. Yes, I could initialize a patch and compare that to a Nord piano sound and it would win because 128 is more than 120. But I have never heard a piano player actually play an initialized piano in a live or studio scenario using the Montage. An initialized piano sound in the Montage is virtually unusable as is. They are created to be "building blocks." So what's more important is how the sounds are constructed. Korg takes a different approach. The polyphony is dynamically allocated between sound engines. You could literally max out the HD-1 sound engine's 140 voices and it will pull voices from another sound engine that is either idle or not being maxed out. It routes the power to where you need it by taking it away from where you don't. So, regardless of its numbers, my Korg Kronos performs better than all of my other keyboards because of its polyphony architecture. Simply knowing how much polyphony a keyboard has is not all that useful. It's like knowing an engine is a V8. How that engine performs will depend on what type of vehicle it goes in. A V8 in a small light sports car will feel very powerful and fast like a race car. Put that same engine in a 2 ton pickup truck and it will feel anemic. So the Fantom's SuperNatural Pianos require a lot of polyphony to give them their sound. So when you layer them with other sounds, the performance is poorer than the premium pianos on the Montage. This also applies to the Zencore pianos. According to Roland (I called them) what filters you choose absolutely affect the polyphony because their complexity use up processing power. In short, counting oscillators was not my goal, but "real world" testing. And we don't have access to the partials (oscillators) when using a SuperNatural sound. No matter which piano I chose in the Montage, I will have access to all of the elements (oscillators) so that I can adjust the sounds as I wish. And I am not satisfied with the polyphony in the Montage, but it normally does out perform the Fantom. You are right this has been the situation with synths for the longest time. And that is the problem. With all of the advancements in chip technology in the past 30 years, we are still struggling with the same issues we were back then in the polyphony department. And coming from a background in engineering, there is quite simply no excuse for that.
Hi...Thank you for the very thoughtful response! I agree with most of what you say, although, analog filters can not use DSP. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding on my part. Back to the polyphony test, yes you are correct but those two programs are not a close enough match on their usage of resources to be scientific. Never the less, you are correct regarding real world usage, and after playing both keyboards for awhile, one will know which one handles polyphony, voice stealing/management or allocation schemes better. I have tried tests on the kronos versus montage, and I do not find the kronos to be better. I'm sure others will disagree. I think your tests will show correctly, that montage handles this issue better than roland. Regarding the industries lack of memory management/processing power...it's simply money period. Synth manufacturers are way behind household computing and still use very dated protocols. Thanks again for the well written explanation and best wishes! BTW, for various reason other than piano patches, I find the montage to have a very good and distinguished sound in a mix when using electronic type sounds in combination with the subtlety of the on board panel controls...very nice.@@darrickkeels6387
@@philmagnotta5553 The Fantom only has a single analog filter on the output. It is not a polyphonic filter like on a classic analog polyphonic synth where each voice has its own filter. I don’t believe the Montage has any analog filters and definitely does not have analog filters per voice. The better filters on the Fantom are VA (virtual analog). That is why using the better virtual analog filters on the Fantom reduce polyphony, they require more processing power to emulate the complexity of a real filter. Especially for realistic behavior with higher resonance.
@Gomjab
look, all in all the Montage does not juggle poly based on memory sharing for filters etc. I do not understand why you are trying to test these in comparison, when in reality, you are not comparing them..I stand by my 1st statement. You get the stated polyphony that Yamaha states, not the case with Roland or Korg.
This is a disappointing issue for me. The way keyboard companies behave today is unacceptable.
They are enabled to do this because unlike cell phones we are limited to only a few keyboard companies. This means they can do as they please and musicians will still purchase their products. We tolerate their short comings while hoping they will change. They have no need to change because we don't have much options. They are still loosing customers to software but slowly.
Also wanted to say thanks @Derrick Keels for making these videos and for your assistance in carefully and honestly advising your viewers.
After looking at your Fantom O video I decided to pick up one instead of the mpc 61.
I have the Fantom 61 but it is too heavy and uncomfortable to lug around. So based on your advice choose the Fantom0 61 to take too my gigs.
I chose theFantom 0 because of the output options, and it's surface controls. I am switching over to software slowly and carefully so I need a keyboard with onboard sounds that I can default to as a backup in case of software failure.
Using gig performer paired with a Winmax2, I have much more flexibility, polyphony, controls, sound, and overall potential.
I do like the hardware more as it comes with everything inside while with software you have to remember to pack more things and this increases possibilities for failure.
Software and hardware work together fine and I'm looking forward to the day when hardware companies move at an appropriate pace forward rather than inching selfishly ahead.
Thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts! I appreciate it!
On another note, analog filters can not steal polyphony.
I am not sure if this is a valid comparison. I am on no side here although I own a Fantom.
To compare these workstations you‘d have to make sure that the exact same amount of oscillators is used on both instruments. But you haven‘t. The Fantom can have up to four oscillators in a patch. So if you stack three patches and the piano uses two, the second patch uses two and the third one used two you‘d get six voices playing at the same time while hitting one key. 128/6 would mean 21 voices left. Now you introduced pedaling. If one sound has a longer release than another one it will still steal these oscillators.
So to compare the polyphony on those two instruments you‘d have to make sure both instruments use the exact same amount of oscillators. You just used the same amount of patches, but that’s not the same! Then you have to compare the release phase of the pianos and of the second and third sound. A longer sample will steal an oscillator for a longer time than a shorter sample while you keep a key pressed or hold down the pedal. So if the pianos on channels 1 and 2 have pretty long release samples (to make them natural sounding) they steal more oscillators while you play and do sloppy pedaling.
So your video is very misleading because there simply isn’t any information on this and how many oscillators are being used by both instruments and how long the release samples are. 128 voice polyphony is 128 voice polyphony and the allocation of voices to the sounds when running out of it doesn’t matter if you compare it. If you have a nice 128 voices piano with long release samples it will run put of polyphony a lot sooner than a cheap 128 voices piano with shorter release samples when played in the exact same way with a lot of pedal. That’s simply a fact. I grew up in the 80s and had to work with 8 to 16 voices polyphony for a single oscillator! I even worked with sequencers and synths in multimode at that time and played live in top of all of it. The Montage and the Fantom are dream machines compared to that but younger musicians who never had to live with these limitations forget about economic use of the power of these sound engines and that even in modern times processing power isn’t endless. So learn about how your instrument‘s sound engine works and have a look inside a patch to see how it is constructed before you are disappointed and sell a great instrument and buy another one and be disappointed again.
I know how both instruments work thanks. The Montage can have up to 8 elements at the same time playing for each part. The SN piano in the Fantom doesn't allow you to access the oscillators blah blah blah. This wasn't so much about testing the oscillators and making them the same. That would satisfy every keyboard nerd I am sure. It was a more practical test. The reality is I can layer any piano over the pad and EP in the Montage and not get voices cutting out. On the Fantom this is simply not the case. I am looking at the overall architecture. How polyphony is managed amongst the instruments is far more important than making sure the same number of oscillators are played. Plus the filters in the Fantom effect polyphony as well. Like I said it is a complex topic. But from a user's perspective I should not have to implement a ton of workarounds and dive deep into a keyboard to layer a few fairly basic PCM sounds. At least not at this price.
@@darrickkeels6387 Thank you for making these videos. We come here to be quiet, to listen, and to learn. Thanks a lot for passing the knowledge!
Lol this sort of **** is why they invented the facepalm emote. It's the technical equivalent of 'simp'. Embarrassing really.
Montage 1000 times better
More buttons / knobs / sliders = more manually & meticulously adjustable = more humanely and artfully.
I prefer Fantom08.
MODX super nob style 'automatical and simplified' is not art.
If it is ideal, let AI compose and play.
Someone climbs up to mountain top and someone goes up to on helicopter. Which is sports?
Yamaha is proud of their super nob and similar tricks on Montage/MODX. But, MODX / Fantom, which is more valuable art?
Yamaha montage sounds better than Roland fantom
In general I do prefer the Yamaha sounds over Roland.
Yamaha montage s grand is better
Roland should be ashamed.
If the issue is polyphony, the Yamaha should win very easily, because poliphony on the fantom is miserable and a big lie
😂😂. A big lie?
@@darrickkeels6387 well, take it as you wish. Those 256 are in practice 128? Layer a couple of sounds and you ll see a new meaning for note dropout. On a flagship synth like this this is not acceptable. I m not talking about anything that everybody does not know. Lol.... Anyway, I ll take the new Montage M7
fantom note drop outs no thanks
Who TF is layering 3 SN pianos ever?
No one. I didn't do that. A SN Piano, RD-1000 (Zencore-EP like sound) and a Zencore Soft Pad. Layering an acoustic piano, ep, and pad is a very common stack.
I think polyphony is much overrated. E.g., look at KURZWEIL's (V.A.S.T.); they handle things totally different, especially organ sounds (not only the Hammond's). They don't run out of polyphony so no need for tons of memory to reproduce natural sounds from well conserved samples.
The polyphony problem reminds me back to those days in the late 90s, when computers had an endless need for memory to run programs.
On the opposite there seem to be lazy or foolish programmers who know nothing about efficient coding & programming. More code or less to no compression requires more memory! Same with the sampling technology. I personally own and use lot's of Kurzweil gear, my Forte - which started as a "Stage Piano" an over the years turned into a real workstation thanks to huge OS upgrades in the past.
I recently bought a YAMAHA Montage 7 WH which is totally new for me but ready to be explored.
I think a better “polyphony architecture” is what is needed in keyboards today. It’s not really about the numbers per se. My Korg Kronos does not have the same issues the Fantom and Montage suffer from because its polyphony is dynamically allocated between sound engines. In short its polyphony limit is determined by the available processing power. It does not have hard limits like 128 or 256. That architecture launched in 2011. Technically it launched in 2005 in the Korg Oasys. I really made this video not to do a “polyphony shootout,” but because I made another video complaining about the Fantom’s polyphony management that was not well received by those in the Fantom community. In short people blamed my playing style, sound choices, pedaling technique or simply said my knowledge of how to use the instrument was the problem. So I made this video to show other keyboards on the market do not have the same problem.
Whoa, Zencore was worse than SN.
Didn't notice any dropouts on the Montage.
Embarrassed for Roland.
I feel it was the other way around but either way, they were both cutting out fairly bad. And when you read the specs and see "up to 256-Voice Polyphony" this is not what most users would expect. They would assume that the Fantom would easily outperform the Montage with a 128-voice polyphony. But as you can see how the polyphony is being used is more important than the numbers on paper.
I cannot remember...which keyboard(s) do you own? Isn't it the Fantom?
@@darrickkeels6387 Fantom 6 and Fantom-08. Also have the Roland VR-09 and AXE Edge. I'm a Roland fanboy, but the polyphony issues have me considering other models.
Agreed. It's something to take into consideration.
Lolol the V Piano engine on the Fantom is infinite polyphony. If you're using lesser pianos thats on you. Also.. the Synth sounds simply cant be compared theyre that nuch better on the Fantom.
Yes, it is unlimited polyphony. I said that in the video. But you will lose "scene remain." This is not a compromise that needs to be made with any piano on the Montage. Or the Nautilus, Kronos, K2700, etc. And saying the synth sounds are "better" on the Roland is simply your personal opinion. Many would argue the FM synth sounds on the Montage are better because it's a true FM engine. "Synth sounds" is a very broad term.
The Roland simply is a joke when it comes to polyphony.