Vegeta was initially the stronger saiyan between himself and Goku. From when Goku surpassed Vegeta on Namek, Vegeta has surpassed Goku at times afterwards, only for Goku to surpass him over and over again. They are in a constant state of one surpassing the other, where Goku more often surpasses Vegeta than the other way around. I am honestly not sure how Vegeta would react if he truly surpassed Goku and it remained that way, but it is quite possible that Vegeta would be content with continuing his rivalry with Goku, because Goku himself is content on getting stronger. So, that possibility of Goku surpassing Vegeta again could theoretically motivate Vegeta to continue fighting with Goku in such a hypothetical scenario.
Goku’s was born with an innate potential far greater than anything Vegeta was ever born with. The Saiyans always focused on what they could see feel or touch. But innate power or dormant power, aka latent potential lies deep within, the deepest level within. Hidden potential can evolve and elevate. Goku’s constantly is on the rise. Vegeta’s inner change in the Buu Arc was the sparked he needed to elevate far higher than ever b4. Vegeta surpassed SSJ3 Gotenks & Base form Gohan from The Buu Arc. It took him many years to do it. Now he is considered Goku’s equal more or less. I don’t know if he will ever truly surpass Goku, Goku is the chosen one. But one thing I never want to happen to Vegeta is for him to lose himself. To attain a goal most people do in life and then they become lazy they stop working they stop driving they stop digging they stop going deeper. They just simply lose themselves they abandon who they are. And I don’t ever want that for Vegeta it would be interesting to see a win of him over Goku but not because it was given to him. But by him truly earning it and I’m a Goku fan. It’ll be interesting to see what they do. I definitely respect and love Vegeta.
@@jordanglasper1064 I honestly don't agree with your assessment about Goku and Vegeta's potential. The fact that Vegeta was stronger than Goku for a good portion of their lives disproves the idea that Goku had a far greater potential than Vegeta. They both have great potential in their own way.
@@jordanglasper1064that's just not true. examples of it were shown all across dbz and super. the fact that vegeta got to where he got, being relative to goku without the need of so many masters and teachers should speak for itself. the whole idea of goku vs vegeta is the idea of nature vs nurture itself, vegeta had the greater natural talent while goku has more nurture, thus needing to work harder to catch up to vegeta and beat him
Vegeta has a weak "mental" if thats what you would call it, he easily gives up, and when he gets strong his arrogance gets the better of him and thinks it is enough and blindly charges into battle, when things get tough he would just go "oh ok, theres nothing i can do anymore" although new vegeta is clearly influenced by goku, he is rubbing off on him haha, Goku got SSG AND SSJ through im angry and the ritual, Vegeta got both of them by going to the gym
@@orlandoactab3034 I wouldn't say that Vegeta easily gives up. It takes a lot to make Vegeta give up, and for the most part he finishes his fights, even when he's outmatched. It's true that his arrogance gets the better of him every time he thinks that he's the strongest, but even when things get tough, he still keeps going because of his pride.
While it's easy to say that Toriyama just forgot, I like to think that this is exactly why Vegeta gave up on his goal to be immortal. Without that risk of loss (and by extension, death) he would lose that thrill for battle and would have no real reason to become stronger; he would lose what it means to be a Saiyan.
@@trenthoward6800 dude, chill. he's right... There are multiple instances of the same/similar things in dragon ball, where someone loses, trains, and then wins
I remember that in a unreleased video game called “Dragon Ball Online”, Goku and Vegeta’s end came from their desire to have one final battle before they were completely out of their prime (Saiyans start losing their capability to fight along with their youthful nature once they are around 60 or 70 years old). They were going to lose everything that made them fulfilled, so they both decided that they’d rather die doing what they loved over living their final years in a hollow existence that was devoid of meaning for either of them. Saiyans are warriors at the end of the day, so this ending is rather fitting for both of their characters and honestly, I wouldn’t have it any other way.
Vegeta said recently that he is getting stronger to protect his family now. He NEEDS to beat Black Frieza though. If he does that, Goku can get every W after and I would not care.
If it means we lose Vegeta as a main stay character due to him reaching his ultimate goal, to surpass Kakarot, I say bring it on! Would be maybe the best arc of all time. Especially if Vegeta wiped the floor with Black Frieza
Honestly, I don't believe vegeta defeating (lets say black frieza as an example) a villain will ruin his arc, if anything, itd help push goku to work even harder, maybe increasing the gap between him and vegeta, making vegeta act likewise in the end. Vegeta has needed a win for a very long time now and it shows based off how he reacted to winning against goku in base in super hero all in all this was a great and moving video, not many people put this much effort into their content, im sure ill be coming back alot more often now! I subbed to you when you posted your "in defense of raditz video" and i loved it!
i dont think vegeta defeating black frieza for example will affect goku on any way because i feel that goku will always try to become stronger than yesterday it doesnt matter if there is a threat lurking or eternal peace has been achieved i think if goku surpassed the omni king he will still be training bettering himself getting stronger even tho noone gonna challenge him anymore and i think that's what master roshi and his grandfather taught him to be
I think Vegeta understands that once he does surpass Goku, Goku will rise to meet the challenge, since that's just who he is. I think Vegeta is using this aspect of Goku as a means for his own fulfilment as a warrior, and Vegeta beating a main villain or even Goku won't be the end of his character. He has a desire to see others around him grow stronger too, so that he has a challenge
@@dbzmods6429 although i did see him as a character with development I never really saw him as deep as the video explained. Seeing how his whole reason for getting stronger is to surpass goku and if he does, the emptiness will follow, and all motivation is gone. The same way he did when goku died to cell. Its more like he desire that desire, and without it its hard for him to find any meaning
Its also a possibility that if vegeta surpasses goku for good he would give goku the biggest kick up the backside to keep getting stronger and if he doesn’t he’ll keep fighting him till he does. Cause he knows he needs goku and vice versa. At this point its more than a rivalry. Its a partnership or friends.
Great video:) Also nice Midas reference at the end there, that was also alluded to in the Granolah arc by Vegeta when he said that Gas continuing to have to be the strongest in the universe is a curse. So its definitely present in the story too
In short, if he’s fighting these villains solely to ONE UP Goku, he’ll never beat them. His rivalry with Goku is good when in training but not in battle.
This is one of my favorite topics I've covered so far, I hope you all enjoy the video! Memberships are available now with custom emotes that you can use in the Discord and on the Weekly Streams/Comments so feel free to support if you want to :) The Discord is very active so come hang out and debate or enjoy fellow DB Fans! (I talk there a lot) discord.gg/qYcYtwq9hy For those of you saying "But Vegeta HAS beaten Goku *here* and *here*"... I agree with you from a fans perspective, but take this video looking at it how Vegeta would see it. He clearly doesn't feel like he's gotten a clean win vs Goku and is still striving to be the one pulling ahead!
He has now, even brags about it... The thing about their rivalry is that even if Vegeta is the strongest right now, he knows that Goku will strive to surpass him. And the same goes for Goku. That's why they are perfect rivals, and why Goku spared him to begin with.
I agree with everything you’ve said because I was the strongest in the world on dragon age inquisition online (Xbox 360). My desire to be stronger and stronger took over my life like Vegeta. Everytime you promoted a character they would go back to lvl 1 however impart a small percent of permanent power to your overall account. Over 2 years later I had promoted 2600 times my damage was 62% higher (focusing solely in damage to clear dungeons faster) then the second world strongest. I eventually quit only 3 months after achieving number 1. I lost interest my wrist hurt 7 years later still today. I found myself alone on top of a global leader board with no one left to hu to down no one left to chase. The bottom 3 under me quit unable to catch up. I was months maybe a year now ahead of everyone else. It was everything I thought I wanted but it ostracized me separated me it became drama who would play and level with me and sometimes I couldnit even find anyone that could play the difficultly I needed to lvl. I had attained nothing but stats and numbers. The fight for our lives as a team with old and new friends was over the thrill of chasing and proving myself was over. Everything turned to ash around me the battle was over the competition that actually drove me was over. I had become Vegeta without a goku to chase. At first it was wow I’m finally the strongest! I’m now the best I did it. That thrill lasted a week or two. But players was leaving I was getting further and further out. 3 months later I don’t remember why I didnit turn the Xbox on. I just ‘forgot’ I just simple forgot and years later I turned the Xbox on and realized I had so many messeges. Where are you? What happened. I felt ashamed because I always told people they need to have the drive never stop keep climbing now matter what. And I had abandoned everything the same way I used to despise in others I was training or helping. But then I realized finally it wasnit to really be the strongest that I thought I wanted. It was to climb to compete to fight to battle for my place to prove something to everyone and myself. But once I finally did…. I was nothing anymore just an empty shell signing on for what purpose. I already finished the race I’m already done. My drive was no longer there. Oh yeee king of nothing everyone has abandoned the cause you have no troops left to fight with you are all alone 😂. So I can say from personal experience your are 100% right my friend Vegeta is doing exactly what I was. Hungry the hungriest in the series but once he finally eats enough of victory in my case 12 weeks…. Then he’s full and he’s finished…. Well done good video subbed :)
Great video! Succinct and very thoughtfully written with excellent points and examples. I really enjoyed the way you tied in other series to illustrate how other characters reflect the natural extremes and endpoints of Vegeta's character arc, as well. Very well done. You have yourself a new subscriber!
I think you’ve made a really great video, I mean you are even adding really world examples to the idea of reaching ur goal and what that really means. This video even in my life right now made me think. I appreciate u creating this vid it was great ✨
Goku and Vegeta are 2 people on 1 mission travelling on different roads..the end goal is to get stronger as the saiyan nature has been. Goku meets up new villains, even vegeta surpassed him many times for short while but Goku is focused on becoming better than his previous self and is excited to meet up new powerful foes. Vegeta also gets surpasses more often, but his goal is to be better than kakarot mainly...although through his training and Saiyan instincts he too gets stronger but not as goku...and vegeta is again at same spot whenever he gets surpassed after getting stronger The end goal is same for both... but their perspective and focus point is what differs them, goku focuses on entirety and vegeta focuses on goku in his subconscious which makes it harder to achieve heights..(might be a reason why whis said his thoughts are always hindering him in fight, especially for vegeta coz he is focused on goku more even during training) The story is going in a better shape now with intro of ultra ego, where both Saiyans can get stronger according to their own nature and not by comparison.
fun fact vegeta has surpassed goku a lot of times but because akira toryima hates vegeta lol , he made sure that it would be mentioned only in 1 line or so
Did you guys not watch the video? He doesn’t hate Vegeta. If he hated Vegeta. He’d let him win so his arc can be complete so Vegeta could be written out. Or he’d kill him off and never bring him back. He’s not stated to be stronger because that’s the end if he does. I swear people don’t pay attention.
To me it seems like Vegeta is the most beloved character. The amount of growth and focus he has gotten outweighs everyone else. Vegeta's arc has been the most thorough throughout all series' and all sagas (imo)
Or you know, could just be Toriyama sucks at story telling and keeps characters stuck in limbo forever? Been obvious for years but was proven without a shadow of a doubt during supers universal tournament, Vegeta was the ONLY character in that whole arc that had any story reason to win.
Also technically in the buu saga if we count the cheap shot which I guess we won't but I do because he was winning before the cheap shot. However Goku didn't go ssj3 so IDK.
Some ppl count it but I don't. Mind you I'm a fan of vegeta. He was using an unfair buff that didn't let him get tired and healed most wounds so even if it was a clean shot I wouldn't count it. Because it's technically not his power
I see it as Vegeta and Goku being like ying and yang. A constant flow of peace, chaos, and the natural order of things. Now onto the most important thing! Where is the Krillen video we all want. Gotta show my little guy some love.
Tbh vegeta HAS surpassed goku quite sometimes in db fr and he won against goku fair and square in super hero AND whenever there is a FOR REAL fight between goku and vegeta both goku and vegeta use something to cheat the other like there first battle where goku cheated to use kaioken to overpower vegeta and then vegeta cheats as well to turn oozaro and BEAT goku
Buddy, I love Goku, but Vegeta is three for three in his match-ups against the Captain Headinjury. Had him dead-to-rights if he didn't get jumped during the Saiyan Saga, knocked him out hard in the Buu Saga, and made the technique thief lose that "spar."
I just realized until dbs: super hero, goku and vegeta were always at a tie in their bouts, Saiyan Saga both Goku and Vegeta were unable to beat each other on their own with their own power, and in the Buu Saga Goku was forced to hold back in SSJ2 because he would burn through his remaining time on earth amd Vegeta knocked him out after the fight was already put on hold/was over in order to atone for his sins.
Vegeta could beat Goku if he could figure out a way to make a better Super Saiyan Third Grade that doesn't trade off stats like Brolys Legendary form or Use the Dragon to upgrade Bulmas training room to be like a hybrid of the hyperbolic time chamber but with extra stuff
If you don't mind, I'd like to plug in two videos about Goku's growth as a character, showing that he isn't as "flat" as people think: Carthu Dojo's "The Morality of Son Goku" & Shadowhugger's "The Development & Duality of Son Goku"
Great video and I loved how indepth it was. I will say, though, you keep saying Vegeta lost to Goku but he never did. At the very least he definitely beat Goku the first time they fought. Goku's body was completely broken and he could no longer defend himself.
Vegeta fighting Goku always seems to be so close in power and skill. Vegeta usually wins when it comes down to a 1v1... Let me explain. Vegeta seemed stronger than Goku from (Probably) the original Dragon ball up to the saiyan saga. Goku: "His speed and techniques are all beyond my own." Until Goku used kioken to overpower Vegeta. You can say Goku won in his ideologies against the prince... But... Goku put every ounce of himself in that Kamehameha to 'win', leaving him fatigued on another level. Even somebody touching him (Like Yajirobi) made him scream in pain. Vegeta goes great ape and Goku PRETTY MUCH loses. He had to rely on friends (Krillin, Gohan, and Yajirobe), the spirit bomb (Literally relying on everything else to win), and great ape Gohan to survive. If we're talking about Goku vs Vegeta strictly. Goku won the war (Ideologies against Vegetas) but would lose the physical battle if he had to fight the Ape-geta by himself. SSJ 2 Goku vs Majin Vegeta was more of an equal fight. Until Goku INSIST on fighting Buu together. Goku thought Vegeta agreed and got knocked out. I know this is only because of Goku being off-guard. (Could we count this as a win?) If Akira thought of SSJ 3 Goku at the time, Vegeta would have LOST. Vegeta stopped caring about Goku being stronger by the end of the Buu saga and GT. But... Something seemed to reignite that desire in Dragon Ball Super... other fights in super implied Goku won some fights in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber when training for universe 6 tournament. Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero: Goku and Vegeta spar to show Broly how NOT to 'break everything beneath your feet' with pure skill. No blast, No Super Saiyan, No Bullsh-. Vegeta STRAIGHT UP won. No technicalities this time. Even if he barely won... He won... For TL;DR (Too long didn't read) They make it seem like Vegeta never stands a chance at beating Goku. But when it actually comes down to it, it seems they are either equal, or Vegeta comes out on top barely. (Even when technicalities are involved.) Good vid though!👍
Vegeta can't beat goku because toriyama doesn't want him to. That's it. It's that simple. I swear. People can get mad all they want about things, but it's ultimately up to the author. Accept it
As a big fan of Vegeta, it's still very sad that Vegeta didn't get a big win. I know I know "desire" and all that. But it always felt like they kept Vegeta JUST because he was a big face of the DB franchise and not because they actually wanted to do something cool with him. The same goes for DB fans. It feels like they hate Vegeta (and they kind of do), it feels like they better forget him. And its really freaking painful and sad.
While I agree that Vegeta won't permanently surpass Goku, ever, he has something that characters like Naruto, Ash, etc, lack. Goku. Unlike Geets, Goku's desire is to become stronger, so Vegeta can surpass him one day, even get the final win against the bad guy of the saga... but comes around next saga, Goku will either have surpased him, or will through that saga. Because that's what Goku does, he becomes stronger, and if Vegeta wants to keep Goku surpased permanently, he better keep training, or Goku will leave him behind again. So yeah, he is free to get wins from time to time... if Toyotaro and Toriyama wanted. That said, personally I'd like to see Goku winning at least ONCE against Vegeta in a fight. We still haven't seen that happen. Saiyan saga? Vegeta won. Buu saga? It was a sucker punch, but Vegeta won. Dragon Ball Super Super Hero? Vegeta won, again.
Whis asked him in Broly movie and he responded because of Freeza. And we know from his interactions with Future Trunks in Super he thinks you need to be stronger to face what may threaten your family and home. Besides he said it himself in Granolah arc: being the strongest today says nothing about tomorrow. Even though it's non-canon he explains it to Cumber in Heroes. The nature of a Saiyan is to seek strength, whether its good or evil doesn't matter (and so Cumber's belief Saiyan true nature is evil is wrong, and Vegeta's own desire to be more good exists but is irrelevant). Seeking ever more strength is who he is. It is the true nature of his soul. To glorify the legacy of the Saiyans by seeking and growing stronger. If he ever beat Goku he wouldn't stop because Goku wouldn't. But even if Goku were gone he wouldn't stop. Both because he knows they'll see each other in the afterlife someday and imo also because now he has to carry on the legacy of Saiyan might alone. And it would drive him.
The wawa example is common but you forget champions also train to retain their titles as well. It all depends on the person and every shonen MC I have seen always wants to be the strongest or best at something hereby having no more challenge.
I think the end of Vegetas ark will be him and Goku becoming the god of destruction (Vegeta) and an angel of sorts (Goku). I mean I don’t think he can legit be an angel but he’ll be powerful enough to fill Whis position in the universe
So correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Vegeta won every one on one they've had. great ape would have won without help. Majin cheap but a win is a win. And super hero he just outright beats him
The way i view Vegeta is just that it’s unfortunate he never got the lessons Master Roshi taught Goku as a child, Roshi made sure to teach Goku to never get complacent with his power, to always strive to be better cuz there’s always someone stronger, aside from Vegeta, you can even see the consequences of this in Mr. Satan, only being able to keep his fame and title through deceit after becoming world champ, another lesson Roshi taught Goku is that you should train yourself not to defeat an opponent, but to avoid losing to yourself. These are things you can clearly see Vegeta never learned until adulthood, before losing to Goku he never bothered to train himself, and afterwards Goku became the physical manifestation of his desire, he didn’t train for himself like Goku did, he trained to beat Goku, and like you said in your video, if he reached this goal (and it stayed that way somehow) it probably wouldn’t be good for him. Or not idk, maybe Vegeta would still strive to better himself, all i’m saying is Vegeta should probably go to a therapist.
I know you don't like to talk about dragon ball GT but I really think your videos best piece of evidence was in the ending of GT, with Goku gone off with shenron Vegeta seems to give up on all fighting, he says goodbye to Goku and fly's off knowing his rivalry is finished
Goku treats training as the most important thing in his life, even beyond his own family. Vegeta might be obsessed with training, but it is undeniable that his family is his priority. The man fought his own nature, and instead of being emperor of galaxy, he stayed to raise a family. I think, even if Goku is stronger, Vegeta's legacy will last longer. His children understand the Saiyan legacy. Gohan is afraid of his own nature, and Goten just wants to date. Trunks, especially Mirai, is a true Saiyan mainly because of Vegeta's rearing. I agree with you as well that Vegeta needs the rivalry more than winning.
Vegeta is 3-0 against Goku. You seem into deep with your thinking. Dragon Ball isn't that serious of a anime the fans try to make it serious. Vegeta beaten Goku multiple times already but it's just a meme to clown on him. I see what your trying to say but I think that's too deep especially for Shonen anime😂
Toryiama literally stated he writes dragon ball based on Journey to the West. Vegeta is written similar to the evil brother of Sun Wukong, Goku as Sun Wukong. A lot of the topics in this video is parallel to JTW. Thinking it isn’t deeply written is ignorance. Also he isn’t 3-0, the majin vegeta fight wasn’t a win.
Vegeta won their first fight but the other characters managed to mess him up. I don’t think he counts that. And he didn’t win in the Buu saga. The fight was a draw, he took a cheap shot. And Goku has ssj3. In Superhero, Vegeta got the last hit. They are still equal. He just happened to get the last hit.
Dragon Ball isn't deeply written to most people because they are there just for the fights. Most people didn't watch or read original Dragon Ball. Z Super and GT is just the same repetitive thing with little differences but people don't care they just care the Fights and Transformations not the "deeply written stories"😂😂 besides Vegeta's character. Vegeta did win 3-0 in any other fight someone turns around and gets knocked out you win obviously but some Dragon Ball don't wanna give Vegeta his Ws if Goku knocked out Vegeta like that all you will see is "Goku finally beat Vegeta" so take the L and keep it pushing😂😂🤡
I really dont think Vegeta would consider a cheap shot knockout in the Buu Saga a win, do you? DB may or may not be intended to be deep but either way its fun to dissect and think about so it doesnt rly matter what the intention was in the end :) (for me personally)
@@PlanetLevelDB Yeah probably because Vegeta doesn't see himself as Hero shown in the Moro arc. Vegeta knows he a villain at heart. You can make a Pride argument against but Vegeta's pride would also say he lost during the Saiyan Saga which is obviously he won. So you can make an argument for it and against it but Vegeta 3-0 :) (for me personally)
Now after watching the entire video, I want to comment on the "end desire" for Vegeta. Dragon Ball has long since ended, whether we accept Z's ending of GT, and as you can see there is more to Vegeta than after Super. So it is possible for Vegeta to win against Goku and even defeat Black Frieza and he will not regress in his role. This is all due to the fact that Dragon Ball as a franchise already ended and that Super is simply a push "insert" more into the finished series. Here we can get what was "unfinished" regarding Vegeta as a character, finished. If not, then this will end as Vegeta never attaining his desired goal, and ended up just dissolving as a character who always chased Goku till the very end and never made anything for himself. I doubt this is what Dragon Ball wants to do. There is a reason they broke Vegeta off that path and allowed him to "forge" his OWN path and it now "isn't" dependent on Goku, it's dependent upon himself. I hope you take an interest in this comment @planetlevel I'd like to get your feed back on it.
I disagree on “if Vegeta surpasses Goku, his arc is over.” If Vegeta was to ever surpass Goku, he’d make his next goal to STAY ahead of him. Remember in the Buu saga when he addressed Gohan’s struggles against Dabura as “a byproduct of his lack of training for 7 years”? I think Vegeta would just keep going in order to maintain his position as the stronger one
I think when Vegeta gets a meaningful win over Goku it'd be a great end for his current character, but it doesn't have to be the FINAL end. In fact, I feel like the "end of the show as we know it" is an exciting prospect compared to repeating the same cycles. Endings can be satisfying, and just as importantly endings can be the start of new beginnings. We could see something like Goku leaving to train Uub and without him around, Vegeta could instead put his focus into training his own protege like Trunks. Maybe he tries to be for Trunks what Goku was to him, or maybe it's a continuation of his rivalry with Goku by trying to train a better protege. Neither seems out of character to me if he'd finally gotten his wish and had a meaningful win over Goku.
What’s funny is Freeza actually proves Vegeta right in the Saiyan saga. Super tells us if Freeza just trains, being as strong as he is naturally, he can reach heights greater than Goku, he was even able to get stronger by just training his mind in Hell. So Vegeta was right about an elite being stronger he just wasn’t right about that elite being him.
here i'll make it short for u.... because plot, because writer/s there, this is all the explanation needed this is just to quote some of the stan lee words on power level in marvel it's the same for any other fiction the character that wins is the character that the writer wants to win THAT'S IT peace out
Haven't watched yet but Vegeta did legit beat Goku at the end of SuperHero. True he went down like seconds after but Goku still fell first and Vegeta had only begun to scratch the surface of his Jiren style mental training. Even a little bit further into it and he probably could beat Goku and remain standing
About Vegeta, thus may be polemic, but I've been noticing some details where they've been kinda underselling Goku to oversell Vegeta, even without getting a W. Let me explain: Goku in Super, especially the manga (that people usually consider superior to the anime), has somewhat been shown to have regressed in many senses, including: Being neglectful w/ the Mafuba Seal or with his children, calling himself "a student that never listened", not seeing the value of meditation as training, letting his guard down during fights, being uncomposed (I.e: Tripping while rushing towards Vegeta headfirst) and ultimately losing his duel vs Vegeta in the Super Hero movie. As for Vegeta, not withstanding his carelessness w/ Golden Frieza, has pretty much always progressed: Being a present father, figuring out Jiren's style (conserving power & explosive attacks), seeing the value of mental training, being described as "a more developed spirit then Goku was" by the Yardratians (this probably is more of a Present Vegeta vs Past Goku), to being the more composed fighter of the SH movie duel and winning (although this is more a cheeky joke, after their brief exchange pre-battle, it makes you think) In a sense, I think many of DB Super problems come from the fact that it, in a way, reflects the popular imagery of Dragon Ball: Vegeta is the best the character; Goku is a flat, battle maniac, selfish manchild; Gohan slacks off too much; Cool transformations go BRRRRR!; a lot of awesome fights, no acknowledgement of build up/personal stakes; DB is the Goku show (now Goku & Vegeta show); etc. Super has some cool ideas and concepts, but only Toriyama has the know how to develop them for Dragon Ball sadly😢.
I agree but your point about the manga is still wrong. He didn’t neglect the mafuba seal, it was roshi who messed up. He’s better to his children as he no longer forces them to fight if they don’t want to (he’s the first one to say no to having gohan fight in the first tournament because he knows gohan won’t enjoy it) He understands meditation but he’s only suprised vegeta does it now Honest your points are valid still but it’s all with the anime. The manga kind doesn’t do any of these things besides the yardrat section
Wrong. Vegeta has defeated Goku 3 times. First during the Saiyan Saga as a Ozzoru. Then in the Buu Saga when Goku held back and let his guard down. And again in Super Hero when they fought without transformations. Goku has NEVER defeated Vegeta.
...except he started out above Goku, has surpassed him multiple times, and has beaten him multiple times. Now is Vegeta better than Goku, that's an entirely different question altogether? This comment was to answer the click bait title.
This is legit the WORST aspect of DB. If not for the way they play Vegeta, this show, which is already absolutely amazing, it would be THEE MOST entertaining anime EVER. Well honestly, I still think it’s no.1, but giving Vegeta some W’s like they do with Gohan sometimes would make it even better.
The thing is Vegeta wouldn't need Goku. The latter always tries to be stronger than whoever he faces not necessarily Vegeta. If there is a stronger opponent, not necessarily Goku, Vegeta woouldn't strive for that because he's a Saiayan? Replace Goku w/ Broly do we get the same result?
I hate to say it but I don’t feel like this is true as vageta becoming number 1 would also force him to keep growing stronger as goku like you said has the goal of getting stronger period, if Vegeta sleeps on this (which he wouldn’t in my opinion) history would rhyme with sayian saga again of strongest being dethroned. Goku always seems to benefit from underdog energy as he keeps ascending to meet the even increasing challenge so it could become a tagging back and fourth for strongest between him and vageta if he ever beats goku.
*Vegeta squeezing the life out of Goku after Goku’s godlike technique taught to him by a god specifically to rival Vegetas natural power failed before Goku’s family and friends surprise attack Vegeta and jump him when he’s weakened by their group efforts* Goku fanboys: Damn, I don’t think Vegeta can take much more. He’s down for the count.
Vegeta was initially the stronger saiyan between himself and Goku. From when Goku surpassed Vegeta on Namek, Vegeta has surpassed Goku at times afterwards, only for Goku to surpass him over and over again. They are in a constant state of one surpassing the other, where Goku more often surpasses Vegeta than the other way around. I am honestly not sure how Vegeta would react if he truly surpassed Goku and it remained that way, but it is quite possible that Vegeta would be content with continuing his rivalry with Goku, because Goku himself is content on getting stronger. So, that possibility of Goku surpassing Vegeta again could theoretically motivate Vegeta to continue fighting with Goku in such a hypothetical scenario.
Goku’s was born with an innate potential far greater than anything Vegeta was ever born with. The Saiyans always focused on what they could see feel or touch. But innate power or dormant power, aka latent potential lies deep within, the deepest level within. Hidden potential can evolve and elevate. Goku’s constantly is on the rise. Vegeta’s inner change in the Buu Arc was the sparked he needed to elevate far higher than ever b4. Vegeta surpassed SSJ3 Gotenks & Base form Gohan from The Buu Arc. It took him many years to do it. Now he is considered Goku’s equal more or less. I don’t know if he will ever truly surpass Goku, Goku is the chosen one. But one thing I never want to happen to Vegeta is for him to lose himself. To attain a goal most people do in life and then they become lazy they stop working they stop driving they stop digging they stop going deeper. They just simply lose themselves they abandon who they are. And I don’t ever want that for Vegeta it would be interesting to see a win of him over Goku but not because it was given to him. But by him truly earning it and I’m a Goku fan. It’ll be interesting to see what they do. I definitely respect and love Vegeta.
@@jordanglasper1064 I honestly don't agree with your assessment about Goku and Vegeta's potential. The fact that Vegeta was stronger than Goku for a good portion of their lives disproves the idea that Goku had a far greater potential than Vegeta. They both have great potential in their own way.
@@jordanglasper1064that's just not true. examples of it were shown all across dbz and super. the fact that vegeta got to where he got, being relative to goku without the need of so many masters and teachers should speak for itself. the whole idea of goku vs vegeta is the idea of nature vs nurture itself, vegeta had the greater natural talent while goku has more nurture, thus needing to work harder to catch up to vegeta and beat him
Vegeta has a weak "mental" if thats what you would call it, he easily gives up, and when he gets strong his arrogance gets the better of him and thinks it is enough and blindly charges into battle, when things get tough he would just go "oh ok, theres nothing i can do anymore" although new vegeta is clearly influenced by goku, he is rubbing off on him haha, Goku got SSG AND SSJ through im angry and the ritual, Vegeta got both of them by going to the gym
@@orlandoactab3034 I wouldn't say that Vegeta easily gives up. It takes a lot to make Vegeta give up, and for the most part he finishes his fights, even when he's outmatched. It's true that his arrogance gets the better of him every time he thinks that he's the strongest, but even when things get tough, he still keeps going because of his pride.
While it's easy to say that Toriyama just forgot, I like to think that this is exactly why Vegeta gave up on his goal to be immortal. Without that risk of loss (and by extension, death) he would lose that thrill for battle and would have no real reason to become stronger; he would lose what it means to be a Saiyan.
This is actually very well put 👍
PL W, a great way to end this arc for Vegeta would be winning against Black Frieza.
@@trenthoward6800 just because vegeta couldnt beat golden frieza doesnt mean he cant beat black frieza lol.
@@trenthoward6800 dude, chill. he's right... There are multiple instances of the same/similar things in dragon ball, where someone loses, trains, and then wins
Yes it would be great
I remember that in a unreleased video game called “Dragon Ball Online”, Goku and Vegeta’s end came from their desire to have one final battle before they were completely out of their prime (Saiyans start losing their capability to fight along with their youthful nature once they are around 60 or 70 years old). They were going to lose everything that made them fulfilled, so they both decided that they’d rather die doing what they loved over living their final years in a hollow existence that was devoid of meaning for either of them. Saiyans are warriors at the end of the day, so this ending is rather fitting for both of their characters and honestly, I wouldn’t have it any other way.
Dragon Ball Online wasn't unreleased
Vegeta said recently that he is getting stronger to protect his family now. He NEEDS to beat Black Frieza though. If he does that, Goku can get every W after and I would not care.
Vegeta finally getting to kill Freeza would be perfect.
If it means we lose Vegeta as a main stay character due to him reaching his ultimate goal, to surpass Kakarot, I say bring it on! Would be maybe the best arc of all time. Especially if Vegeta wiped the floor with Black Frieza
Yes!
Honestly, I don't believe vegeta defeating (lets say black frieza as an example) a villain will ruin his arc, if anything, itd help push goku to work even harder, maybe increasing the gap between him and vegeta, making vegeta act likewise in the end. Vegeta has needed a win for a very long time now and it shows based off how he reacted to winning against goku in base in super hero
all in all this was a great and moving video, not many people put this much effort into their content, im sure ill be coming back alot more often now! I subbed to you when you posted your "in defense of raditz video" and i loved it!
i dont think vegeta defeating black frieza for example will affect goku on any way because i feel that goku will always try to become stronger than yesterday it doesnt matter if there is a threat lurking or eternal peace has been achieved
i think if goku surpassed the omni king he will still be training bettering himself getting stronger even tho noone gonna challenge him anymore and i think that's what master roshi and his grandfather taught him to be
I think Vegeta understands that once he does surpass Goku, Goku will rise to meet the challenge, since that's just who he is. I think Vegeta is using this aspect of Goku as a means for his own fulfilment as a warrior, and Vegeta beating a main villain or even Goku won't be the end of his character. He has a desire to see others around him grow stronger too, so that he has a challenge
Vegeta actually won every fight with Goku
This changed my perspective on vegeta a lot
How did you see Vegeta before this?
@@dbzmods6429 although i did see him as a character with development I never really saw him as deep as the video explained. Seeing how his whole reason for getting stronger is to surpass goku and if he does, the emptiness will follow, and all motivation is gone. The same way he did when goku died to cell. Its more like he desire that desire, and without it its hard for him to find any meaning
Its also a possibility that if vegeta surpasses goku for good he would give goku the biggest kick up the backside to keep getting stronger and if he doesn’t he’ll keep fighting him till he does. Cause he knows he needs goku and vice versa. At this point its more than a rivalry. Its a partnership or friends.
Great video:)
Also nice Midas reference at the end there, that was also alluded to in the Granolah arc by Vegeta when he said that Gas continuing to have to be the strongest in the universe is a curse. So its definitely present in the story too
In short, if he’s fighting these villains solely to ONE UP Goku, he’ll never beat them.
His rivalry with Goku is good when in training but not in battle.
This is one of my favorite topics I've covered so far, I hope you all enjoy the video!
Memberships are available now with custom emotes that you can use in the Discord and on the Weekly Streams/Comments so feel free to support if you want to :)
The Discord is very active so come hang out and debate or enjoy fellow DB Fans! (I talk there a lot) discord.gg/qYcYtwq9hy
For those of you saying "But Vegeta HAS beaten Goku *here* and *here*"... I agree with you from a fans perspective, but take this video looking at it how Vegeta would see it. He clearly doesn't feel like he's gotten a clean win vs Goku and is still striving to be the one pulling ahead!
Always enjoy ur videos man
He has now, even brags about it...
The thing about their rivalry is that even if Vegeta is the strongest right now, he knows that Goku will strive to surpass him. And the same goes for Goku.
That's why they are perfect rivals, and why Goku spared him to begin with.
I agree with everything you’ve said because I was the strongest in the world on dragon age inquisition online (Xbox 360). My desire to be stronger and stronger took over my life like Vegeta. Everytime you promoted a character they would go back to lvl 1 however impart a small percent of permanent power to your overall account. Over 2 years later I had promoted 2600 times my damage was 62% higher (focusing solely in damage to clear dungeons faster) then the second world strongest. I eventually quit only 3 months after achieving number 1. I lost interest my wrist hurt 7 years later still today. I found myself alone on top of a global leader board with no one left to hu to down no one left to chase. The bottom 3 under me quit unable to catch up. I was months maybe a year now ahead of everyone else. It was everything I thought I wanted but it ostracized me separated me it became drama who would play and level with me and sometimes I couldnit even find anyone that could play the difficultly I needed to lvl. I had attained nothing but stats and numbers. The fight for our lives as a team with old and new friends was over the thrill of chasing and proving myself was over. Everything turned to ash around me the battle was over the competition that actually drove me was over. I had become Vegeta without a goku to chase. At first it was wow I’m finally the strongest! I’m now the best I did it. That thrill lasted a week or two. But players was leaving I was getting further and further out. 3 months later I don’t remember why I didnit turn the Xbox on. I just ‘forgot’ I just simple forgot and years later I turned the Xbox on and realized I had so many messeges. Where are you? What happened. I felt ashamed because I always told people they need to have the drive never stop keep climbing now matter what. And I had abandoned everything the same way I used to despise in others I was training or helping. But then I realized finally it wasnit to really be the strongest that I thought I wanted. It was to climb to compete to fight to battle for my place to prove something to everyone and myself. But once I finally did…. I was nothing anymore just an empty shell signing on for what purpose. I already finished the race I’m already done. My drive was no longer there. Oh yeee king of nothing everyone has abandoned the cause you have no troops left to fight with you are all alone 😂. So I can say from personal experience your are 100% right my friend Vegeta is doing exactly what I was. Hungry the hungriest in the series but once he finally eats enough of victory in my case 12 weeks…. Then he’s full and he’s finished…. Well done good video subbed :)
Great video! Succinct and very thoughtfully written with excellent points and examples. I really enjoyed the way you tied in other series to illustrate how other characters reflect the natural extremes and endpoints of Vegeta's character arc, as well. Very well done. You have yourself a new subscriber!
"The winner of the fight is the one the writer says is the winner"
Goku has never beaten Vegeta in a one on one fight
He beat goku twice. Once in the sayian saga also in the super hero movie
And in their first fight
He beat goku at the end of the super movie
yeah the title throws me off, seems like clickbait, could've worded the title better.
True yes he did but wothought transformation and all this other stuff like special moves
I think you’ve made a really great video, I mean you are even adding really world examples to the idea of reaching ur goal and what that really means. This video even in my life right now made me think. I appreciate u creating this vid it was great ✨
Goku and Vegeta are 2 people on 1 mission travelling on different roads..the end goal is to get stronger as the saiyan nature has been.
Goku meets up new villains, even vegeta surpassed him many times for short while but Goku is focused on becoming better than his previous self and is excited to meet up new powerful foes.
Vegeta also gets surpasses more often, but his goal is to be better than kakarot mainly...although through his training and Saiyan instincts he too gets stronger but not as goku...and vegeta is again at same spot whenever he gets surpassed after getting stronger
The end goal is same for both... but their perspective and focus point is what differs them, goku focuses on entirety and vegeta focuses on goku in his subconscious which makes it harder to achieve heights..(might be a reason why whis said his thoughts are always hindering him in fight, especially for vegeta coz he is focused on goku more even during training)
The story is going in a better shape now with intro of ultra ego, where both Saiyans can get stronger according to their own nature and not by comparison.
Great Video
fun fact vegeta has surpassed goku a lot of times but because akira toryima hates vegeta lol , he made sure that it would be mentioned only in 1 line or so
Fr broooo😢
Did you guys not watch the video? He doesn’t hate Vegeta. If he hated Vegeta. He’d let him win so his arc can be complete so Vegeta could be written out. Or he’d kill him off and never bring him back. He’s not stated to be stronger because that’s the end if he does. I swear people don’t pay attention.
To me it seems like Vegeta is the most beloved character. The amount of growth and focus he has gotten outweighs everyone else. Vegeta's arc has been the most thorough throughout all series' and all sagas (imo)
@@PlanetLevelDB i think akira has openly stated he doesnt like vegeta, but vegeta does get alot of screen time!
Vegeta beat Goku in DB Super: Super Hero, which came out well before this.
Ngl technically Vegeta has beaten Goku every single time they have fought.
Damn dude, this is put together very well!
Such an underrated channel, well done bro. Keep up the good work
Goku also never beat Vegeta
Bro forget about dose 2 times 💀
Or you know, could just be Toriyama sucks at story telling and keeps characters stuck in limbo forever? Been obvious for years but was proven without a shadow of a doubt during supers universal tournament, Vegeta was the ONLY character in that whole arc that had any story reason to win.
you know goku never won a fight with vegeta 1v1 witch is crazy to think about
Super Hero:........................
Also technically in the buu saga if we count the cheap shot which I guess we won't but I do because he was winning before the cheap shot. However Goku didn't go ssj3 so IDK.
Some ppl count it but I don't. Mind you I'm a fan of vegeta. He was using an unfair buff that didn't let him get tired and healed most wounds so even if it was a clean shot I wouldn't count it. Because it's technically not his power
I see it as Vegeta and Goku being like ying and yang. A constant flow of peace, chaos, and the natural order of things. Now onto the most important thing! Where is the Krillen video we all want. Gotta show my little guy some love.
Superhero: Am i a joke to you
Tbh vegeta HAS surpassed goku quite sometimes in db fr and he won against goku fair and square in super hero AND whenever there is a FOR REAL fight between goku and vegeta both goku and vegeta use something to cheat the other like there first battle where goku cheated to use kaioken to overpower vegeta and then vegeta cheats as well to turn oozaro and BEAT goku
Agreed. Vegeta actually has a better win loss record vs goku
Buddy, I love Goku, but Vegeta is three for three in his match-ups against the Captain Headinjury. Had him dead-to-rights if he didn't get jumped during the Saiyan Saga, knocked him out hard in the Buu Saga, and made the technique thief lose that "spar."
I just realized until dbs: super hero, goku and vegeta were always at a tie in their bouts, Saiyan Saga both Goku and Vegeta were unable to beat each other on their own with their own power, and in the Buu Saga Goku was forced to hold back in SSJ2 because he would burn through his remaining time on earth amd Vegeta knocked him out after the fight was already put on hold/was over in order to atone for his sins.
amazing video!! you should do one about goku too!
Vegeta has clapped Goku twice, Saiyan Saga and Majin Buu Saga.
Lies 😂 goku was stronger than him making buu saga and saying sag
so basically the reason is the "I wanna be a super saiyan scene" from dbza personified
didn't he beat goku in superhero?
Vegeta could beat Goku if he could figure out a way to make a better Super Saiyan Third Grade that doesn't trade off stats like Brolys Legendary form or Use the Dragon to upgrade Bulmas training room to be like a hybrid of the hyperbolic time chamber but with extra stuff
If you don't mind, I'd like to plug in two videos about Goku's growth as a character, showing that he isn't as "flat" as people think:
Carthu Dojo's "The Morality of Son Goku"
&
Shadowhugger's "The Development & Duality of Son Goku"
Toriyama: Because I fucking said so.
Great video and I loved how indepth it was. I will say, though, you keep saying Vegeta lost to Goku but he never did. At the very least he definitely beat Goku the first time they fought. Goku's body was completely broken and he could no longer defend himself.
Vegeta fighting Goku always seems to be so close in power and skill. Vegeta usually wins when it comes down to a 1v1... Let me explain.
Vegeta seemed stronger than Goku from (Probably) the original Dragon ball up to the saiyan saga. Goku: "His speed and techniques are all beyond my own." Until Goku used kioken to overpower Vegeta. You can say Goku won in his ideologies against the prince... But... Goku put every ounce of himself in that Kamehameha to 'win', leaving him fatigued on another level. Even somebody touching him (Like Yajirobi) made him scream in pain. Vegeta goes great ape and Goku PRETTY MUCH loses. He had to rely on friends (Krillin, Gohan, and Yajirobe), the spirit bomb (Literally relying on everything else to win), and great ape Gohan to survive. If we're talking about Goku vs Vegeta strictly. Goku won the war (Ideologies against Vegetas) but would lose the physical battle if he had to fight the Ape-geta by himself.
SSJ 2 Goku vs Majin Vegeta was more of an equal fight. Until Goku INSIST on fighting Buu together. Goku thought Vegeta agreed and got knocked out. I know this is only because of Goku being off-guard. (Could we count this as a win?) If Akira thought of SSJ 3 Goku at the time, Vegeta would have LOST.
Vegeta stopped caring about Goku being stronger by the end of the Buu saga and GT. But... Something seemed to reignite that desire in Dragon Ball Super...
other fights in super implied Goku won some fights in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber when training for universe 6 tournament.
Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero: Goku and Vegeta spar to show Broly how NOT to 'break everything beneath your feet' with pure skill. No blast, No Super Saiyan, No Bullsh-. Vegeta STRAIGHT UP won. No technicalities this time. Even if he barely won... He won...
For TL;DR (Too long didn't read)
They make it seem like Vegeta never stands a chance at beating Goku. But when it actually comes down to it, it seems they are either equal, or Vegeta comes out on top barely. (Even when technicalities are involved.)
Good vid though!👍
Vegeta already defeated Goku. It was at the end of super hero.
Vegeta can't beat goku because toriyama doesn't want him to. That's it. It's that simple.
I swear. People can get mad all they want about things, but it's ultimately up to the author. Accept it
As a big fan of Vegeta, it's still very sad that Vegeta didn't get a big win. I know I know "desire" and all that. But it always felt like they kept Vegeta JUST because he was a big face of the DB franchise and not because they actually wanted to do something cool with him. The same goes for DB fans. It feels like they hate Vegeta (and they kind of do), it feels like they better forget him. And its really freaking painful and sad.
honestly i loved gt vegita bc of how they rounded his character off, it was amazing and prob my highlight of gt.
Vegeta has beaten goku 2 validly and 1 cheap shot but he’s never lost to goku so the fact that he obsesses over him makes zero sense.
Writer does what the writer does
My morning just got alot better
I’m liking this shit bc you said it and said it well and you hit me where it matters
While I agree that Vegeta won't permanently surpass Goku, ever, he has something that characters like Naruto, Ash, etc, lack. Goku. Unlike Geets, Goku's desire is to become stronger, so Vegeta can surpass him one day, even get the final win against the bad guy of the saga... but comes around next saga, Goku will either have surpased him, or will through that saga. Because that's what Goku does, he becomes stronger, and if Vegeta wants to keep Goku surpased permanently, he better keep training, or Goku will leave him behind again.
So yeah, he is free to get wins from time to time... if Toyotaro and Toriyama wanted.
That said, personally I'd like to see Goku winning at least ONCE against Vegeta in a fight. We still haven't seen that happen. Saiyan saga? Vegeta won. Buu saga? It was a sucker punch, but Vegeta won. Dragon Ball Super Super Hero? Vegeta won, again.
Whis asked him in Broly movie and he responded because of Freeza. And we know from his interactions with Future Trunks in Super he thinks you need to be stronger to face what may threaten your family and home. Besides he said it himself in Granolah arc: being the strongest today says nothing about tomorrow.
Even though it's non-canon he explains it to Cumber in Heroes. The nature of a Saiyan is to seek strength, whether its good or evil doesn't matter (and so Cumber's belief Saiyan true nature is evil is wrong, and Vegeta's own desire to be more good exists but is irrelevant).
Seeking ever more strength is who he is. It is the true nature of his soul. To glorify the legacy of the Saiyans by seeking and growing stronger.
If he ever beat Goku he wouldn't stop because Goku wouldn't. But even if Goku were gone he wouldn't stop. Both because he knows they'll see each other in the afterlife someday and imo also because now he has to carry on the legacy of Saiyan might alone. And it would drive him.
Babe wake up, Planet Level uploaded!!
The wawa example is common but you forget champions also train to retain their titles as well. It all depends on the person and every shonen MC I have seen always wants to be the strongest or best at something hereby having no more challenge.
I think the end of Vegetas ark will be him and Goku becoming the god of destruction (Vegeta) and an angel of sorts (Goku). I mean I don’t think he can legit be an angel but he’ll be powerful enough to fill Whis position in the universe
Thing is in the manga vageta is currently stronger than carrot
Didn't vegeta beat goku when sparring in the broly movie? Also when bulma was slapped, i believe it was stated that he surpassed goku for a moment.
So correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Vegeta won every one on one they've had. great ape would have won without help. Majin cheap but a win is a win. And super hero he just outright beats him
The way i view Vegeta is just that it’s unfortunate he never got the lessons Master Roshi taught Goku as a child, Roshi made sure to teach Goku to never get complacent with his power, to always strive to be better cuz there’s always someone stronger, aside from Vegeta, you can even see the consequences of this in Mr. Satan, only being able to keep his fame and title through deceit after becoming world champ, another lesson Roshi taught Goku is that you should train yourself not to defeat an opponent, but to avoid losing to yourself.
These are things you can clearly see Vegeta never learned until adulthood, before losing to Goku he never bothered to train himself, and afterwards Goku became the physical manifestation of his desire, he didn’t train for himself like Goku did, he trained to beat Goku, and like you said in your video, if he reached this goal (and it stayed that way somehow) it probably wouldn’t be good for him.
Or not idk, maybe Vegeta would still strive to better himself, all i’m saying is Vegeta should probably go to a therapist.
I know you don't like to talk about dragon ball GT but I really think your videos best piece of evidence was in the ending of GT, with Goku gone off with shenron Vegeta seems to give up on all fighting, he says goodbye to Goku and fly's off knowing his rivalry is finished
Goku treats training as the most important thing in his life, even beyond his own family. Vegeta might be obsessed with training, but it is undeniable that his family is his priority. The man fought his own nature, and instead of being emperor of galaxy, he stayed to raise a family. I think, even if Goku is stronger, Vegeta's legacy will last longer. His children understand the Saiyan legacy. Gohan is afraid of his own nature, and Goten just wants to date. Trunks, especially Mirai, is a true Saiyan mainly because of Vegeta's rearing.
I agree with you as well that Vegeta needs the rivalry more than winning.
Vegeta is 3-0 against Goku. You seem into deep with your thinking. Dragon Ball isn't that serious of a anime the fans try to make it serious.
Vegeta beaten Goku multiple times already but it's just a meme to clown on him.
I see what your trying to say but I think that's too deep especially for Shonen anime😂
Toryiama literally stated he writes dragon ball based on Journey to the West. Vegeta is written similar to the evil brother of Sun Wukong, Goku as Sun Wukong. A lot of the topics in this video is parallel to JTW. Thinking it isn’t deeply written is ignorance.
Also he isn’t 3-0, the majin vegeta fight wasn’t a win.
Vegeta won their first fight but the other characters managed to mess him up. I don’t think he counts that. And he didn’t win in the Buu saga. The fight was a draw, he took a cheap shot. And Goku has ssj3. In Superhero, Vegeta got the last hit. They are still equal. He just happened to get the last hit.
Dragon Ball isn't deeply written to most people because they are there just for the fights.
Most people didn't watch or read original Dragon Ball. Z Super and GT is just the same repetitive thing with little differences but people don't care they just care the Fights and Transformations not the "deeply written stories"😂😂 besides Vegeta's character.
Vegeta did win 3-0 in any other fight someone turns around and gets knocked out you win obviously but some Dragon Ball don't wanna give Vegeta his Ws if Goku knocked out Vegeta like that all you will see is "Goku finally beat Vegeta" so take the L and keep it pushing😂😂🤡
I really dont think Vegeta would consider a cheap shot knockout in the Buu Saga a win, do you?
DB may or may not be intended to be deep but either way its fun to dissect and think about so it doesnt rly matter what the intention was in the end :) (for me personally)
@@PlanetLevelDB Yeah probably because Vegeta doesn't see himself as Hero shown in the Moro arc. Vegeta knows he a villain at heart. You can make a Pride argument against but Vegeta's pride would also say he lost during the Saiyan Saga which is obviously he won.
So you can make an argument for it and against it but Vegeta 3-0 :)
(for me personally)
Now after watching the entire video, I want to comment on the "end desire" for Vegeta. Dragon Ball has long since ended, whether we accept Z's ending of GT, and as you can see there is more to Vegeta than after Super. So it is possible for Vegeta to win against Goku and even defeat Black Frieza and he will not regress in his role. This is all due to the fact that Dragon Ball as a franchise already ended and that Super is simply a push "insert" more into the finished series. Here we can get what was "unfinished" regarding Vegeta as a character, finished. If not, then this will end as Vegeta never attaining his desired goal, and ended up just dissolving as a character who always chased Goku till the very end and never made anything for himself. I doubt this is what Dragon Ball wants to do. There is a reason they broke Vegeta off that path and allowed him to "forge" his OWN path and it now "isn't" dependent on Goku, it's dependent upon himself. I hope you take an interest in this comment @planetlevel I'd like to get your feed back on it.
That said the show has to end some time so we'll see.
I disagree on “if Vegeta surpasses Goku, his arc is over.” If Vegeta was to ever surpass Goku, he’d make his next goal to STAY ahead of him. Remember in the Buu saga when he addressed Gohan’s struggles against Dabura as “a byproduct of his lack of training for 7 years”? I think Vegeta would just keep going in order to maintain his position as the stronger one
Also maybe have Ultra ego in the thumb? just a suggestion
Nothing will ever justify the way they continue to misuse Vegeta.
ik Toriyama will never let Vegeta win, but I really want Vegeta to be triumphant sometime soon.
I think when Vegeta gets a meaningful win over Goku it'd be a great end for his current character, but it doesn't have to be the FINAL end. In fact, I feel like the "end of the show as we know it" is an exciting prospect compared to repeating the same cycles. Endings can be satisfying, and just as importantly endings can be the start of new beginnings. We could see something like Goku leaving to train Uub and without him around, Vegeta could instead put his focus into training his own protege like Trunks. Maybe he tries to be for Trunks what Goku was to him, or maybe it's a continuation of his rivalry with Goku by trying to train a better protege. Neither seems out of character to me if he'd finally gotten his wish and had a meaningful win over Goku.
Look man all I gotta say is DBS Superhero.
That moment when you realize you haven’t watched the latest DBS MOVIE.
Very well said!!!
What’s funny is Freeza actually proves Vegeta right in the Saiyan saga. Super tells us if Freeza just trains, being as strong as he is naturally, he can reach heights greater than Goku, he was even able to get stronger by just training his mind in Hell. So Vegeta was right about an elite being stronger he just wasn’t right about that elite being him.
here i'll make it short for u....
because plot, because writer/s
there, this is all the explanation needed
this is just to quote some of the stan lee words on power level in marvel it's the same for any other fiction
the character that wins is the character that the writer wants to win
THAT'S IT
peace out
But.........he beat Goku in Super Hero
Ah yes, the classic tale of Midas...
Really, it was his own fault for wording the wish like that.
Should said "I wish everything i pee on turns gold"
Haven't watched yet but Vegeta did legit beat Goku at the end of SuperHero. True he went down like seconds after but Goku still fell first and Vegeta had only begun to scratch the surface of his Jiren style mental training. Even a little bit further into it and he probably could beat Goku and remain standing
So basically if Vegeta ever actually becomes the mightiest sayain (it will never happen) he would retire and never fight again
About Vegeta, thus may be polemic, but I've been noticing some details where they've been kinda underselling Goku to oversell Vegeta, even without getting a W. Let me explain:
Goku in Super, especially the manga (that people usually consider superior to the anime), has somewhat been shown to have regressed in many senses, including: Being neglectful w/ the Mafuba Seal or with his children, calling himself "a student that never listened", not seeing the value of meditation as training, letting his guard down during fights, being uncomposed (I.e: Tripping while rushing towards Vegeta headfirst) and ultimately losing his duel vs Vegeta in the Super Hero movie.
As for Vegeta, not withstanding his carelessness w/ Golden Frieza, has pretty much always progressed: Being a present father, figuring out Jiren's style (conserving power & explosive attacks), seeing the value of mental training, being described as "a more developed spirit then Goku was" by the Yardratians (this probably is more of a Present Vegeta vs Past Goku), to being the more composed fighter of the SH movie duel and winning (although this is more a cheeky joke, after their brief exchange pre-battle, it makes you think)
In a sense, I think many of DB Super problems come from the fact that it, in a way, reflects the popular imagery of Dragon Ball: Vegeta is the best the character; Goku is a flat, battle maniac, selfish manchild; Gohan slacks off too much; Cool transformations go BRRRRR!; a lot of awesome fights, no acknowledgement of build up/personal stakes; DB is the Goku show (now Goku & Vegeta show); etc.
Super has some cool ideas and concepts, but only Toriyama has the know how to develop them for Dragon Ball sadly😢.
I agree but your point about the manga is still wrong.
He didn’t neglect the mafuba seal, it was roshi who messed up.
He’s better to his children as he no longer forces them to fight if they don’t want to (he’s the first one to say no to having gohan fight in the first tournament because he knows gohan won’t enjoy it)
He understands meditation but he’s only suprised vegeta does it now
Honest your points are valid still but it’s all with the anime. The manga kind doesn’t do any of these things besides the yardrat section
@@sidecharacter3193And that, my freinds, is why the manga is better
Wrong. Vegeta has defeated Goku 3 times. First during the Saiyan Saga as a Ozzoru. Then in the Buu Saga when Goku held back and let his guard down. And again in Super Hero when they fought without transformations. Goku has NEVER defeated Vegeta.
I think he means in terms of power growth
Wasn't this made after Dragonball Super: Super Hero released? You know the one where Vegeta beats Goku at the end of the film? 😅
...except he started out above Goku, has surpassed him multiple times, and has beaten him multiple times. Now is Vegeta better than Goku, that's an entirely different question altogether? This comment was to answer the click bait title.
He definitely surpasses Goku often
Might want to read Super chapter 100 😀 out today.
He beat him in super hero
This is legit the WORST aspect of DB. If not for the way they play Vegeta, this show, which is already absolutely amazing, it would be THEE MOST entertaining anime EVER. Well honestly, I still think it’s no.1, but giving Vegeta some W’s like they do with Gohan sometimes would make it even better.
Vegeta shouldnt have felt bad for losing to Goku, he literally had a gods power to cheat while Vegeta is all natural
The thing is Vegeta wouldn't need Goku. The latter always tries to be stronger than whoever he faces not necessarily Vegeta. If there is a stronger opponent, not necessarily Goku, Vegeta woouldn't strive for that because he's a Saiayan? Replace Goku w/ Broly do we get the same result?
This makes no sense cuz he won every time they fought
Tell that to Vegeta
@@PlanetLevelDB score board baby
Not enuf sit-up push up an lots of juice for him 😂😂😂😂
You can shink this video down to 9ne sentence. Goku has plot armor
I hate to say it but I don’t feel like this is true as vageta becoming number 1 would also force him to keep growing stronger as goku like you said has the goal of getting stronger period, if Vegeta sleeps on this (which he wouldn’t in my opinion) history would rhyme with sayian saga again of strongest being dethroned. Goku always seems to benefit from underdog energy as he keeps ascending to meet the even increasing challenge so it could become a tagging back and fourth for strongest between him and vageta if he ever beats goku.
Well he beat Goku at the end of Super Heroes Movie and Chapter 100 of the Manga
He can beat Goku. But as soon as he does, Goku will zenkai or find some other means to surpass Vegeta's power. It's an endless race for more power.
*Vegeta squeezing the life out of Goku after Goku’s godlike technique taught to him by a god specifically to rival Vegetas natural power failed before Goku’s family and friends surprise attack Vegeta and jump him when he’s weakened by their group efforts*
Goku fanboys: Damn, I don’t think Vegeta can take much more. He’s down for the count.