Short answer: No. Long answer: The Borg are completely incompatible with the federation, thus making "membership" completely impossible. The Borg are built on assimilation, they are inherently a hostile entity. They require expansion through assimilation of new drones. They simply cannot be a federation member.
Sure, as long as the Federation surrenders all their ships, modify their biological and technological distinctiveness to the Borg mindset, take the vaccine jab and adapt their culture to entertain them.
Technically, it had already been done a few times. Hugh being the first and the pseudo-future Borg from Voyager made from the portable emitter and Seven's nanoprobes
I'm pretty sure the Jurati Borg are a separate splinter group, akin to Unimatrix Zero or the Cooperative, and not the main Collective. In the case of these splinter groups that allow individuality, voluntary assimilation, and hopefully voluntary deassimilation; then membership to the UFP is possible but it shouldn't be rushed. A defensive alliance or provisional association membership should more likely be established. The main Borg Collective though is an antithetical mirror to the UFP, so membership with that group isn't possible.
I don't think that the Jurati Borg are a splinter group of the Borg. As the Borg Queen stated, the Borg are aware of multiple timelines. I posit that the Jurati Borg are the Borg from one of those timelines, because I would tend to believe that Agnes being assimilated in 2024 creates a new timeline.
@@darkwalkermyth - i disagree. Agnes was assimilated by a queen from the 25th century. When they took that queen back to 2024 she became a temporal duplicate of the queen already in the delta quadrant. Were the two queens aware of each other? That depends. The queen that merged with Jurati had no connection to the collective in the delta quadrant in the same way the queen in First Contact had no connection to it. Perhaps the act of traveling through time throws the queen out of temporal sync: she may be in 2024 or 2063 but the other queens she can sense in other timelines would all still be in her year of origin. So if the delta quadrant collective remained unaware of the Jurati queen's existence until she regained temporal sync with them she may have been able to build her own voluntarist cooperative under their noses. And by the time she regained temporal sync, the prime timeline collective was already fragmented because of the events of Endgame. Indeed, after 2375 Jurati may have become the de facto queen of the prime timeline Borg because of Admiral Janeway's actions. Though it would have been a fractured collective of lost and confused drones that she would have had to sift through to reassimilate only those who volunteered and free those who wanted no part of it. Which may be why she never showed up until 2500. She had a collective to reform in her new ideological framework and it took her a couple of decades to do so...
They are certainly a small group, who has been staying away from the main borg. When they needed help to harmonize shields, they had one mothership with an interesting design. The old borg would have also had many cubes.
@@nagillim7915 I thought so too. 1) Q sends them to an evil timeline where the Europa mission didn't happen. 2) They rob the queen and go further back in time to 2024 in that timeline. Where the evil borg collective and duplicate exists. 3) They make sure the mission happens, and we are on the same timeline. 4) Q sends them to the future. The conflicts with evil borg happen. Jurati-Borg stays away from influencing the timeline with her smaller group. Many join because of being lonely, having incurable diseases that borg implants can fix, and they somehow let more individuality retained, while still sharing thoughts. It's a borg collective only in name, because where the tech came from
I'll be honest, I always liked the Borg being the ONE enemy that can't be reasoned with. Peace and negotiation has won out with every other enemy of the Federation, but the Borg were different. They were the one situation in which ideals must be put aside, and the enemy must simply be destroyed. I liked having that bit of necessary brutality among Star Trek's idealism
The Federation already has Cybernetic races, Bynars, so it’s not too great a stretch. The primary issue between the Federation and the Borg is consent to be assimilated. If the Borg (under new leadership) agree to absorb only those who consent to be assimilated most of their problems resolve. And there would be those who want to join, even in the Federation’s utopia some just don’t feel whole.
See theres the problem that all these new writers are overlooking. The Borg dont have a leader. The queen is nothing more than a focal point of the Collective intelligence, designed to, as she well put it herself, bring order to chaos. In PROPERLY done episodes, even in Voyager as maligned as some people complain about, she still does everything, even making deals with the Voyager crew, that ultimately benefit the Borg. Never straying from their primary and singular goal. In Picard, they've done the same thing the writers for Halo tv show did to Master Chief, overly humanizing them for some unnecessary feel good connection. They dont need it, certainly not the Borg. And not Master Chief either. They are what they are, and dont need anything else.
It could be further argued if the colony in Voyager's "Unity" episode wanted to be a Federation member, would they be denied because they still have a collective concept, but believe in independent freedoms?
The problem with that is that the Borg would have no incentive to take that approach indefinately. At the end of the day they are a technological singularity, driven completely by logic and calculations, to them assimilation is imperative not because of ideology, emotions or anything that could be swayed, it is the result of calculations that ran for eons. They could subside that goal temporarily in case a greater threat forces them to do so, but they'd never abandon it. As soon as the threat would be neutralized they'd surely return to their previous goal sooner or later and being part of the federation they'd have an incredible vantage point as well.
@@DraconX3 they're a group that's all about evolution and adaptation, seeing them as something that should be immutable throughout the centuries and completely monolithic seems wild to me. But we'll see what future stories bring
This is the most logical conclusion. It cannot be all the Borg, because that would fundamentally alter history. The Borg, as we understood them traditionally, would still have had to exist. So the most likely scenario is Jurati created a new collective that was distinct from the Borg we know. We can assume from their actions that Jurati's proposal met with success
This seems like a shaky hypotetical: the group that is asking for provisional membership is not the same as the Borg of old, but we simply do not know what happened to them during the 400ish years of divergent development. We obviously can't tell until we learn more about them.
The question is ultimately redundant. The Borg we know come from the Classic Continuity. Secret Hideout, in one half series based in an arguable alternative continuity reboot, as was reported when STD came around, has shown Picard moving across 4 continuities. Picards own, the dark Federation, the past of the dark Federation, and Picards own time after stomping on butterflies in the past… and leaving Rios behind to effect the past, where once his influence was absent. Secret Hideout has changed the nature of the Borg to fit their vision of agenda driven narrative storytelling. Picard uses Classic Trek as a template, but the Picard shows past should not be assumed to be in continuity with Classic Trek. After all, Secret Hideout refute this notion in how they handle continuity that it’s all but assured one thing… aside from STD and SNW, no show they have made has direct continuity with the other, suggesting it’s all separated realities that allow their writers to write whatever they want, without having to worry about continuity ramifications.
Indeed. Not the borg of old. Not even the same people. It's a borg queen from alt universe Merged with a human from prime time line. And their mission was assimilated by request. Not by force.
@@baskkev7459 When it comes to the universes I've figured out a basic rule that seems to work. Classic - TOS to ENT. Kelvin - JJ's movies Prime - A slight of hand to imply it is classic, but in reality is a continuity we've never seen that JJ could pluck elements he liked out of while ignoring the rest. It might include STD, but seeing as STD has a Spock with learning difficulties and is Pon Farring ahead of schedule, the one thing we can take as truth is that it cannot be classic Trek. ALT - Everything Secret Hideout has produced to date that does not fit into the three above. It is entirely possible that Kurtzman's and JJ's plan plan to develop multiple continuities, as seen in the Count Down comic, no series aside from STD and SNW are of the same continuity in order to allow the writers to write stories, without having to learn 30+ years of Classic Trek
@@davfree9732 yup. But when it comes to this borg it's simpel. Its comparing Germany nzi from ww2 with current Germany.... 2 whole different countries.
It was confirmed that it's merely a group created by Jurati Queen that wants to join, that works similarly to or is the Borg Cooperative. This is more or less confirmed by the fact that the Borg didn't send more ships to shield the galaxy from the beam by itself, because that Supership is the only ship capable of doing this and needed Starfleet help.
Yes. The request was predicated on the mini-Collective being the "guardian at the gates"for which they'd need Fed support. Their only other option is to be destroyed. Everyone else is all smiles but the Borg are desperate here. I wouldn't trust them.
The only iteration of the borgs that could even remotely qualify to join the federation was the Cooperative from Voyager or anything else that would be like them, under any other circumnstance the honest and smart answer would be absolutely not.
@@mella4376 The very essence of the borg is that they are a cybernetic hive mind, designed to integrate other minds into itself weaponizing them and their host-bodies and thus grow stronger and more apt at continuing it's expansion, the try definition of the concept of technological singularity, transhumanism and cyborgs. If they opreated in any other way they'd not be Borg anymore, they'd be something else but certainly not Borgs.
@@juimymary9951 transhumanism and the Borg are all about evolution and adaptation. Thinking Jurati's spinter group couldn't become a version of the collective that is radically different but still shares enough genetic material with the original seems needlessly limiting
@@mella4376 Hmmm... I think I see what you mean, after all the Borg cooperative was called Borg coming to think of it. Though then, at that stage they'd be more like the Borg Cooperative than the Borg collective.
@@juimymary9951 yeah there might be some renaming/relabelling for at least the splinter faction (if that's indeed what they'll remain) moving forward, we'll see what they go for
Even if the Borg adapted to meet the requirements for joining, it's hard to imagine this isn't a ploy to gain a strategic foothold in federation space and then revert to their assimilating nature when it's most advantageous to do so. Even forming non-aggression pacts and slowly gaining the federation's trust would seem disingenuous; since the Borg likely plan things out centuries in advance, they could be the best non-aggressive neighbors in the galaxy but we could never ever trust them.
Assimilation doesn't necessarily have to be involuntary. If the borg collective changed its branding, then it could slowly siphon and assimilate cultures and tech, not to mention drawing individuals to the collective. Less potential for damage to the collective as a whole, while still getting what they want in the end.
And plus the federation has a policy of don't dick around with Borg technology or it will assimilate you. I mean yeah they study it but they have severe caution. When handling the technology I mean the USS Voyager has Borg technology inside of it. But seven to nine when she was on the crew had to be very careful about what she did with it.
@@Cyberwar101 exactly. Since they plan so far ahead I don’t know why they forced the issue at all; you’d get better results by having them willingly join, and sooner or later they’d all admit your inevitability and decide to join. So why not just move on to the next place if one place isn’t ready? In the long long term it doesn’t matter at worst and at best you get a more effective outcome.
A "provisional" membership in this context means 'you can navigate our space without an immediate Vulcan Hello'... Also, Jurati expressly created a new collective - which is why no one has heard of her...
If I was writing the lore, the Borg Union (my headcannon name for Jurati's group instead of the more 'sinister' Collective) would be small, especially compared to the Collective. Instead of forced assimilation, it's voluntary, either offered to non-Borg, or to drones in the Collective that show signs of 'disharmony' and potential independence. It's possible to have a gestalt consciousness for the Union, but the individual members are still individuals capable of acting and thinking for themselves. There's been Borg splinter groups before (and they could come back as having joined or allied with the Union) that regained their individuality, but still used there own group's 'collective' to guide their overall actions for the Greater Good. As for the 24th century tech from La Sirena, doesn't matter, because the smart thinking would be to keep it well hidden. The Collective has numerical superiority, and risking ANY of that tech being assimilated would risk the future timeline. Buried deep inside a planet, far outside future Borg space, and rigged to vaporize down to the molecular level if it's threatened. Borg joining the Federation should, if done right, be a huge story. Imagine Reagan announcing the Soviets are joining the United States. How many Federation member worlds would threaten to leave, and all the governments outside the Federation that have suffered from the Borg turning hostile. The Federation has it's own 'collective' pushing for the Greater Good, but there's definitely a point where individuals will plant their feet and say 'No! That's too damn far for me!'.
By single entity you mean the Jurati-queen? So the massive ship she has, was built by her self? Well, for me being the Borg queen, we would certainly assimilate others into collective to build that ship (and many others, so we could help others to achieve perfection ;-).
When the borg first appeared it seemed like they could vat-grow organic life to become drones. My guess is assimilation was just a faster, energy-efficient means of expanding as that's their goal. If it were possible to shift their aims from exponential growth it could be possible to make the both no longer rely on assimilation, rather cloning and other forms of artificial birth.
Don't get that much new information to add to the Borg's perfection, from a vat grown drone. Since they are a blank slate with no memories or experience of life outside the collective.
The life produced in their ships is probably to slowly expand and also maintain drone numbers from them dying either in battle, an accident or old age. Assimilation is to increase the diversity and technology of their own to increase their so-called perfection
Jurati’s Helper Borg I can only assume are a splinter element of the larger collective, otherwise there would’ve been significant changes to the future they returned to.
As was said, if the 'Borg-rati' Queen gives all the 'drones' independence, first, then the Federation should consider allowing them to join. Real world fact is, though, I don't think the writers have thought about this anywhere near as deeply as the Templin Institute has, which is a shame.
the thing is, logically, those borgs are a different collective than the one we've seen so far... they arrived through a space time portal and they started in the 21st century from a borg queen of another timeline... so the regular borg must still be there scattered in the delta quadrant, but those new ones arrived from somewhere else, having developed for 400 years parallel to the regular ones.
I imagine that the borg would do better as maybe an associate to the federation and not a full member. As you said their collective is antithetical to the federation's ideals
In regards to a splinter group, I think that it is possible. But as a whole, I agreed that The Borg shouldn't be included. It is highly likely that a betrayal or importation of slaves is in the future. The Borg needs to maintain its numbers. Indirect involvement of piracy is encouraged. And this will cause embargoes and conflicts between the Federation and The Borg.
The Borg were to represent the absolute opposite to the Federation. On one hand you have a entity that goes out actively looking for civilizations to add to there hive mind, stripping away cultural individuality, absorbing technological, scientific and industrial achievements and forcing others to confirm to their ideology. And the others the Borg.
The Borg as also deceptive and willing to pretend to be allies before later betrayals. Perfectly possible the Borg would integrate into the federation over 1000s years before betraying the federation and assimilating all its people.
"I know you. I was like you once, but then I opened my eyes. Open your eyes, Captain. Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation. Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day they can take their 'rightful place' on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it." - Michael Eddington
*Grabs a Phaser Rifle* I’ve always wanted to do this… “NNNOOOO!” *smashes model starships* No, the collective as we understand it cannot join the federation. Ever.
I would like to move this question to a more absctract "can a hive mind join a federation of alien species?" I'm talking about a REAL hive mind, the Tyranid kind, where the single organism has no individual will and they are all part of a bigger united consciousness. That's an interesting scenario to imagine.
I think that's possible - communication protocols can be setup (or special communication members bred by the hive mind), and as long as it understands that not every individual speaks for the whole when dealing with individuals, I can see it working out. It would be an interesting episode of tng to have the crew deal with a trade dispute between a hive mind and some traders that have both misunderstood the other
I think a tyranid kind of hive mind could never be admitted. Tyranid meaning there are conscious individuals that are suppressed by the hive. However a species with a hive mind, where each 'unit' is just a part of the large organism; there should be no problem for them/it to join the Federation. You could actually say that a human is a hive mind that controlls all those individual organisms that make our body. As I've mentioned already in some other comment, we could imagine a 'bee' species. There could be some bee-queen running it all, and then there would be a worker-bees that just follow orders and report results without asking questions. It would be a natural state of their existence. They wouldn't mind and Federation could be also ok with that. Another example might be the Binars. They seem to be individuals connected into something that could be described as a hive mind. But their 'collective' doesn't seem to be restrictive or centrally controlled by any higher force, like the Borg. Of cource if the values of the Federation wouldn't be an issue, if there is just some kind of an interstellar alliance, then the question would only be: whether that tyranid hive mind could pose a threat to other members of that alliance.
Short answer, not the Borg we know, but a group of borg that has separated from or exists independent of the collective? That is possible. I always thought that Unimatrix Zero would become a faction that still used Borg technology. I could see them coming to the Federation post voyager, this new collective under Jurati is also one that stands apart.
Now, THIS is interesting. Whoever thought THIS question, would come up. I've read a number of the comments so far. I don't think full membership of even a splinter Borg is possible. An alliance or associate membership at best, is possible. Maybe. The Borg, even in the splinter group formation, could not check off many of the Federation's boxes. For the Borg to comply, they would not be Borg. Would the Borg splinter want to evolve(or devolve) into something else? The Borg splinter, I suspect, wants protection, from the Borg Collective. History has long arms, this could fracture the Federation, imagine the arguments that would fly in the Council, not to mention member worlds themselves. Only in Trek, could this quandry appear.
The specific reason for "membership" is that the thing Queen Jurati wants to patrol is in Federation space. I also infer the "provisional" is less about the Jurati Borg wanting an exit clause and more about it being provisional while the application is studied, so they can carry out their mission. Further, I think it's a mistake to assume this collective is even part of the traditional collective, as the new Queen had an entirely new approach to assimilation. I would read that as her collective, perhaps just that ship, has developed independently of the collective as we know it, more akin to Voyager' s Borg Cooperative.
If you told me that the Klingons, the Romulans, hell even the Dominion requested to join the Federation, it would sound far fetched but believable if they had suffered some degradation in authority and security to the point that they risked losing territory to hostile powers. In that sense, joining the Federation would be more preferable since you are not risking occupation and destruction of culture. It makes sense on the Federation side since although very different culturally, they are still sentient races that can grow into the Union. The Borg no, they don't produce, just consume. There are probably AI races that can more easily join the Federation as you're talking about a race that comes to planets, forces a race to give up it's sentience and join a hive mind. A non aggression treaty, maybe but I'd still use the time to gather more weapons and ships in case they decide to 'grow their numbers' again.
A thing that occurred to my mind as I read over some of the commentary here is a scenario regarding Jurati's Borg, upon an encounter with either traders or pirates or some other group that stumbled into their space. I see Jurati's Borg existing as both individuals and members of a gestalt consciousness, able to merge with and extricate themselves from it at will while remaining intimately connected to the hive mind. Such a group that encountered them would see individual Borg interacting with each other, helping each other and socialising with each other on an individual basis, and then upon recognition of the presence of the traders/pirates/what have you, they look at each other and then in the next instant they look as one at the group and speak with the voice of the Collective, warning them not to take advantage of their generosity or their amity, else they earn the wrath of the New Borg and their Queen.
I mean you could ask the question back in 1985 "could the federation and the Klingons EVER have a true alliance?" Jurati's borg aren't going anywhere and could have taken over all of that fleets personnel if she wanted to. So they should and be proven useful. Sometimes all it takes is a gamble under the right circumstances
To answer this question, I dug into Memory Alpha, and came up with the following (Note: Copied directly from the source itself): 1) Admittance into the Federation can be granted either by invitation or successful petition submitted by a world, civilization, or government desiring to join voluntarily. In the second case, membership is granted only upon satisfaction of meeting certain requirements and conditions. Firstly, the government of the prospective member submitted an official petition to the Federation Council, outlining its desire to join. A lengthy, thorough investigation of the prospective member's culture followed, including copying records from the applicant's central computer. This investigation could last several years, and was done to ascertain whether or not the culture genuinely shared the values of the Federation: values of benevolence, peaceful co-existence and co-operation, the rule of law, justice, and equal rights and freedoms. 2) Even before the investigation, the prospective member had to meet certain requirements. These were as follows: - It had to have an "advanced level of technology." The Federation's baseline definition of this term was the capability for "faster-than-light" travel. - Its government should have achieved stable planetary political unity, demonstrating a resolution of social and political differences and a respect of the rights of the individual. Membership was still considered if there was an isolated faction present that did not want membership, but this was a rare case. - No form of caste discrimination was to be practiced. 3) Every acceding member had to go through the same admittance process, which included a specific (yet undefined) timetable. So as far as standard membership goes, the Borg would not qualify, as their "society" violates several tenants that are inherent to the status of the Federation as a whole. However, I COULD see a provisional membership being allowed, a sort of "special status" being granted to the Borg Collective. I still think that quite a few members in the Federation, let alone the Quadrants as a whole, would object to the Borg becoming a pseudo-member state in the Federation, given the history and loads of bad blood between the Collective and...basically everyone else in the galaxy.
The Borg joining the federation whether or not its just Jurati's group or the entire collective, I can say one thing, assuming that they are willing to adhere to the UFP's rules and not betray them it would be a huge power boost to the Starfleet and essentially make the UFP near invincible, though its members and citizens will have a hard time adjusting to this and some will probably rebel, and cause some unstability
In other videos, you talk about comparing situations in alternate realities to a hypothetical, real world scenario. Here is mine: The leader of North Korea announces to the world that he would like his country to join NATO. This would be absolutely improbable with their current state, as human rights in the country are practically nonexistent, much the same way that the someone's free will is stripped from them when they assimilate into the Borg.
timetravel, canon change^^...... to not give spoilers (but Picard is just another character driven drama in a known scifi setting) and seven is lesbian now too apparently, but hey all series these days need that these days it seems.
yeeah but it feel sooo forced PC in the last years in sooo many movies/series ... just feels artificial, like "they have to include it" if it makes sense in that story or not, thats all im saying!
@@mho... It's star trek, TOS had a black woman who routinely took command, a Russian on the bridge, the captain and first officer were played by Jews (also the Russian), AND the last member of the bridge crew was Japanese. Prioritizing casting of minority groups has kind of been a star trek thing since d1 and making "infinite diversity in infinite combinations" a central value was a pretty pronounced statement of intent. Honestly, it's weird how little gay there is in modern Trek given that view. Though I guess we can chalk that up to Rick Berman suppressing it in the 90s so the staff being allowed to put even this amount of gay in feels like a release.
the Borg are essentially a dark reflection of the utopian Federation of TNG and DS9, so them becoming a part of the Federation in the "New Trek" is actually really fitting and almost feels like a under-the-table dig at the conformist, dystopian turn the Star Trek franchise has taken.
The Borg in their normal state would not even ask for nor consider any form of cooperation that isn't unconditional assimilation into their collective. If they do, they're obviously not borg, individuality of any kind and everything associated with it is canonically a malfunction to them, and their actual response to this happening in the past was to amputate the malfunctioning drones from the rest of the collective if sublimation couldn't be reestablished.
I definitely interpreted it as Queen Jurati's ship being from something other than the Collective we've known, since they made such a big deal about doing things differently but the villainous Collective was still part of the timeline. Since fundamentally altering centuries of Borg history would have been a Mothra-scale butterfly effect. Maybe it was something from a different timeline where they took the ship and founded something more akin to the Borg Cooperative? Who knows. So, yeah, the Collective joining the Federation would be totally absurd. But if it's a version of the Borg with a fundamentally different philosophy built on people joining voluntarily and uncoerced, or formed from people liberated from the Collective who willingly chose to remain part of a gestalt conciousness, or something along those lines, I could see it happening.
Well, for Jeradi's Borg to arrive at the scene without having already altered the timeline, they had to exist both independent of the Prime Universe Borg (since her Borg Queen is from an alternate timeline) and acting in ways that did not change the known timeline...something a "temporally aware" being like the Borg Queen would know what was okay to do and what was not okay to do. SIDEBAR before I continue: I suspect the Borg, based on discussions with Guinan, gained their temporal awareness from the El-Aurians when their world was assimilated (and possibly why even the Q are afraid of them...."How many times do I have to tell you, do NOT PROVOKE THE BORG?!") So, the questions that remain are: 1. When Future Janeway infected the Borg Queen, did it wipe out ALL the Borg? 1a. If YES, then Jeradi-Borg was free to expand her activity...possibly even offering disconnected Borg throughout the Delta Quadrant a new home to feel "whole." 1b. If NO, was there a NEW Borg Queen? 2. If there is a NEW Borg Queen in the Prime Universe, and Jeradi-Borg is simply now free to act because she caught up to the moment Jeradi went back, then there are TWO Collectives. So, how will Jeradi deal with a Borg Queen who has NOT had her identity stripped down to a single entity capable of being overpowered by her? Eventually, the two are gonna bump heads.
Membership is Inevitable. Your technology and cculture will adapt to serve with us. We are the Federation. You are granted membership. Opposition is pointless.
I got the impression that by the time that it's Juratti, the Borg are pretty much annihilated thanks to Janeway's actions. Even in Season 1 of Picard, the Borg Cube that we see consisted of drones that were wanting liberty and reclaiming their lives. The only problem was that they were under Romulan control. If the Borg under Juratti have truly embraced new values then the answer is yes. If that is the case, then it might have been better to say, the "Borg Under My Rule wish to serve the Federation." It would have made more feasible sense. By then, you will see a lot of Borg drones that are separated from the collective, can live their own lives, but have the choice to "talk and operate" inside of a collective (almost like we see with Voyager's episode "Unity" of a Borg people separated from the collective, but still wanting to have their own collective to establish a form of order). Almost like the Binars, in a way. I can believe that's what Juratti would have wanted as well.
I got the impression that this particular Borg Collective was designed up as a more voluntary and benevolent version than the previous one. This may mean too that this particular Borg cell is separate from other Borg. The "provisional membership" may only apply to that one particular Borg ship and members of that hive mind.
That entirely lies on the intentions and requirements of the Borg and the capacity of their collective to endure other species without intervening. We *did* see the Borg easily suprass themselves and cooporate with other species when the emergency or necessity demands it; but when on stable conditions ? That is the critical point
"We are the Federation. Lower your shields and surrender your weapons. We will add your cultural and political distinctiveness to our own. Your military will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile." In all seriousness though, the Federation clearly doesn't allow genetic or cybernetic alteration to allow people to preform at unnatural levels, since Eugenics is illegal, and we don't see anyone who looks like a Tech Priest from 40K running around in the Federation. The Borg are basically nothing BUT those changes, so Borg society would need to change just to even legally operate in Federation space, to say nothing of formally joining.
"We are the Federation. Your technological and cultural distinctiveness will be added to our own eventually. Resistance is acceptable, we can wait." This sounds much more natural.
there’s a cybernetic race already apart of the federation. an in TNG the enterprise actually visits a human colony made out of genetically enhanced and engineered people
@@draconisthewyvern3664 I would need to see the episode, because Bashir's and Khan's personal plots are both related as to how the Federation doesn't allow super humans.
The Borg as they exist in Picard, yes. There was some basic rules laid out when the Queen and Jurati merged, one of which was assimilation was willing, "...based not on assimilation but salvation..." and recognition of the uniqueness of its members. It is a smaller Borg but it is a stronger, more cohesive Borg.
The question is faulty since it is in relation to regular timeline borg and not alternate Q-retire timeline borg. it was the latter who requested provincial membership in the federation to become the Guardians of the gate. There is nothing to indicate that these new borg are more than this one ship.
Something to consider - Agnes/Queen is the only Borg we actually see and perhaps there are no other drones. That huge ship (apparently having assimilated Superman's Kryptonian technology at some point) may be akin to the Fessarius, controlled by a lone occupant Balok. When Jurati says "We request...", she may be referring solely to herself and the Queen. And as Agnes already is a natural born member citizen of the Federation, with every right to be in Federation space, her request can't really be refused legally and is being made more out of courtesy with the Borg Queen's admittance coming automatically much like a foreign born spouse. And they did just save billions of people without assimilating any of them or turning their own starships against the Alpha Quadrant.
You've pretty much nailed the requirements to join the Federation - they are explained at one point during one of the shows. As to... their request... They dont actually NEED Federation membership in order to remain in Federation Space, work within a Federation Fleet Taskforce, or be potentially supplied by Federation Worlds. The Federation and Starfleet has done this repeatedly over its history. And no... the Borg, even a splinter group, operating within a Collective where it's members have been abducted, tortured, mutilated and kept in forced labor - could ever possibly be admitted into the Federation - let alone the public outcry from Federation worlds and citizens.
It has been confirmed by Terry Matalas, Writer for Star Trek Picard, that Jurati Borg and the classical Borg are two very distinct entities. Jurati Borg has been active, but has been keeping to themselves in the background, all this time. While the "Classics" are holding back in the Delta Quadrant, licking their wounds, after the events of Star Trek Voyager.
Funny thing in Lower Decks episode the Boimler Effect in the far future in a open air classroom where they celebrate past Starfleet heroes like Brad Boimler and Miles O'Brian among this was a Borg kid. At the time it was shown it was asked how was that possible?
In exceptional cases, membership has been extended not long after first contact has occurred. In Star Trek: Insurrection, the planet Evora joined the Federation barely a year after first contact because the Federation needed more members during the Dominion War.
Seeing how every drone in the borg just about became a drone through force and against their will the answer is no no the borg cannot join the federation that's like asking if the Soviet Union could join the United States they're too completely opposite of each other
Given that star Trek 6 was about the Soviet Union analogue making peace with the America analogue, I'm not sure at least for star trek it's a good counter-example.
@@matthewanderson5198 thats making peace, not joining as one country. and the Klingons uses a Feudal System not true Communism like the Borg did, and the movie was also very flawed. Directed by Nimoy who thought he was smarter than he actually was.
@@madkabal I didn't suggest they were communists, I just think it's funny that you're pointing to what star trek was doing by analogy decades ago. The borg aren't communists, they're a monarchy, but specifically an ant monarchy. It's the federation that are heavily inspired by socialist ideals. And while we can have our disagreements with the quality of what was done, at the end of the day, star trek an idealistic show primarily for an idealistic audience. The desire to reach for and embrace some sort of commonality and ultimately come together is one of it's most fundamental elements. (also, I'm of the opinion that originally the Klingon empire did join the federation but it got reconnected out and the in universe explanation is that the changes made due to yesterday's enterprise)
@@matthewanderson5198 They're Communists dude there is no individuality. everyone is equal there is no classes of wealth, Every citizen is simply a a drone that serves the state. It's Communist to the perfect level it is exactly what Marx has visioned the borg is the Communist dream. The Borg Queen that you are desperately trying to cling to to make your ideology look better is simply what happens when you have an administrator in charge of a Communist state. This is why Communist leaders have all of the power because when everyone is the same and no one has any power the "administrator" has all of the power. So nice try but no this is what your utopia looks like when it's followed through its logical conclusion. Your professor is selling you a load of b*******.
@@madkabal Literally everyone is not equals, they're under a literal queen, the drones are equals and the queen is royalty. I'm not a communist, I just happen to know that absolute monarchy =/= communism, it's inspired by insect hives.
I could imagine one or even multiple splinter groups of the Borg joining with relative ease (I mean, there's still the things mentioned in the video about it being a prolonged process, with less serious co-operation agreements beforehand, but still), but the collective itself seems as pretty much the least likely candidate for Federation membership.
Note they only asked for provisional membership (in the show) normally in alot of organizations this can be granted before they are granted full membership and in alot of cases a review would have to be done after the fact. So it doesn't matter if they don't meet the requirements for full membership. Look at the EU or UN
I like the idea of a splinter group of Borg that allows a limited form of assimilation. I think that is a rich vein that has not been explored. A connected consciousness but retaining some individuality.
An interesting idea to conform the Borg into the ideals of the Federation would be to have the Borg alter their collective from an Overmind model to a Concensus model. This makes it so the entire collective make the decisions their people take rather than a single one that controls the collective. For reference the Geth in Mass Effect have a system like this and it's probably the closest form of democracy a hive mind can be.
I had the Borg make peace with the Federation over 5 years ago in my Star Trek Universe Fan Fiction stories In one called Purrsistance is Futile. I took the idea that at some point the Borg with all that had gone wrong in the Voyager Series and First Contact, would see an accomodation with the Federation as a plus. I even postulated that might have been why "Q" brought the Borg and Federation into contact in the first place! To moderate the Borg's influence on the galaxy.
A unified planetary government is not a strict requirement for federation membership. In the TNG episode “Attached” we are introduced to the world of Kesprytt, which had two rival governments. Despite this division the Kes were still being considered for membership. The issue of a unified planetary government was directly addressed in the episode with Troy asking if Earth would have been ineligible for federation membership had the Swiss, a historically neutral nation, refused to join the United Earth government. Nor are democracy, rule of law, sapient rights, or protection of minorities likely to be strict requirements. Those, after all, are values of one specific cultural tradition on Earth, and not even universal to humanity. As such they can’t be expected to be common in alien societies. The sole requirements for federation membership are likely to be the willingness of existing member states to accept the new member and that new member’s own willingness to join. Everything else will have to be negotiable. So yes, the Borg can join.
Thank you for pointing out the concept that an alliance/membership in the federation is a big deal and there are several steps any faction has to take before it is even a possibility. A lot of media likes to portray the idea that alliances between factions are the first step for cooperation when they would actually be the last.
the fact that the borg are adapting to have more individuality and even bothered to ask is positive, but you are right, one step at a time... it's easy to fall back on what you knew before IF something creates snags that confuse or frustrate... internal dynamics of the collective will rise, the question is and will always be there about trust. but i do not see it as an impossibility. one step at a time, and even IF they are never fully brought in, these steps will strengthen bonds of those that do gain trust.... and cooperation is a two way street. as a side note, throughout history even enemies have joined forces to fight another threat to them both... to overcome or survive at least in part from that third "forces" actions. peace.
My thinking is Agnus's Borg developed separately from the main Borg Collective, laying low as to not draw the attention of main hive and I think she stayed true to her idea of creating a new type of Borg based on charity instead of conquest. It probably doesn't have the sheer numbers and power the old Collective had but since its members joined voluntarily instead of forcibly, I think they'd make for an even more cohesive and harmonious hive mind than the old Borg
it'd be one hell of spactacular coup if they could get the borg on the federation's side. However i'm not sure it can be done. While maybe not a member state, perhaps something like a partner system or an allience or something would be more fitting.
If you want to know what a world must do to join the cloud cities in the TOS is an excellent episode. Also Star Trek Online has the liberated Borg and the part of the new colletcive. I was actually designing a mission for the game (when they took the toolkit away) discussing if Borg could 'go home' and under what conditions people might willingly join the Borg's new collective. We are the Canadian Borg. Your culture will please serve ours. It would be rude to refuse eh?
They can, but it will require some Austria-Hungary (or for Sci-Fi Mechanicus) esque compromise, except reversed with the Federation refusing to fully integrate the Borg. Apart for the bad blood, it would take decades of reform for both before becoming economically, politically and socially compatible.
1: Queen Jurati doesn't request membership.... just provisional membership based on defending the anomoly and saving BILLIONS of lives, thereby showing good faith. 2: A hero admiral that also trusted Jurati and helped save BILLIONS of lives will carry some weight. 3: These borg are empirically different from the core collective, since they saved BILLIONS of lives. 4: F*ck all the haters.
The big question is if this group is a splinter group or not the key I believe in answering this question is that from all we know including the best source of information coming from seven is that as far as we know there is only one queen and if that's the case then these borg represent the entire collective of the hive mind. Yes there have been splitter groups but none of those groups had a queen over them all. The queen is the center the bringer of order to chaos so I believe that when she was made the queen of the collective there was a fundamental change in the nature of the Borg even guinan acknowledged that in time it might be possible to establish a peaceful delict with them.
I remember reading a comment (perhaps on this very channel frequency) saying that eventually, everybody ends up being assimilated into the Federation. They can wait.
I had seen it as not being THE Borg, but Jurati's collective. She and the Queen had set out to build a group based on consensual membership (though that could be argued as they would mostly be taking in the dying and desperate) - So while The Borg could never join, nor would they want to, Jurati's collective doesn't have the same baggage and negative press.
I uh, went into Picard S2 with very different expectations of what we would get and the idea of The Borg being left a shell of themselves following 'Endgame' and pleading for membership intrigued me. I assumed the seizing of the Stargazer and the fleet was a desperate measure to draw enough 'Power' to keep their drones alive. And that it was more of a 'Social Quirk' that the Borg Queen did not ask permission for it. Like you have to teach a child to say 'Please' and 'Thank You'. I believe that the Borg, robbed of their ability for violent subjugation and conquest, could be reformed into a cybernetic race of individuals acting as a part of a whole that would one day be able to join the Federation, as 'Lower Decks' implies in one of their episode. It just requires a great deal of personal growth on their part, and I guess on our part as well as the collective challenges a lot of what we consider to be conscious.
To me it was pretty clear in the dialog between Jurati and the Borg Queen before their integration that they were going to create a "New Borg" that would be separate from the primary Collective and would operate according to wholly different ideals - particularly of voluntary recruitment of "lost souls" who would actually want to join a hive mind of their own volition. The creation of this New Borg in the 21st century would leave plenty of time for them to grow into a significant force by the 25th. Obviously there are a lot of questions left unanswered, including the scope of this separate collective and what they've been up to for four hundred years while the main collective has been wreaking havoc. But, it's conceivable that Jurati's collective has remained small in scope, perhaps limited to that single "Borg Star" as a nomadic society. A Borg variant of that nature, or even the Borg Cooperative from Voyager, could conceivably join the Federation. I can't imagine that the Federation would discriminate against a gestalt hive mind just for being a hive mind, if joining such a collective was a voluntary decision on the part of its members.
I don't remember exactly which one, but in one episode of TNG, they were sent to make first contact with a planet that just developed warp tech and found that the planet didn't have a unified government, and it was stated that disqualified them from joining the Federation until they do. But, I don't think anything was said about it having to be a democracy. On the subject of the Borg becoming a Federation member, though? Nope. Individuality is the least of the problems when it comes to the litany of issues with that prospect, and entire essays could be written going through all of them. A temporary alliance, political ploy, or some combination of the two, on the other hand? Well, the Borg have been trying to assimilate the Federation ever since Q exposed the Enterprise to them in season 1 of TNG, and repeatedly fail at making significant headway there, so their tactics continue to adapt.
On more than one occasion the Federation has broken it's own rules on admitting members. The first instance we see was in Star Trek: Insurrection, where the Enterprise starts the film hosting a delegation from an alien species that had only just invented warp technology. On at least one occasion it is stated that the Dominion War has seen the Federation compromise on it's morals in order to have the upper hand. Then, more recently, in one episode of Strange New Worlds we see how the Discovery-Control incident is observed by a nearby pre-warp civilisation. Despite not qualifying for it, they were accepted as members of the Federation in order to further cover up what had happened. Theoretically, the Borg Collective could attain membership. It's just the circumstances would have to be quite exceptional. Individual former drones being accepted to Star Fleet was apparently controversial enough, so I do not think them parking a ship next to a space anomaly inside Federation territory would qualify. No matter how little is known about it's nature and origin.
The borg joining The federation through time travel shenanigans is the most Star Trek thing that could possibly have happened. If this was the old days I'd say they'll play it off like the head snakes out of the first or second season and never speak of it again.
Membership of the collective proper is entirely impossible for it to become a member and remain the collective. Splinter groups joining who have abandoned the hive mind to some extent it’s possible, like those from Uninmatrix Zero, though more centralize physically. The Cooperative from Voyager, is fuzzy since they did rejoin their own hive, so idk about that. But yeah Federation membership is a big step and it being the borg, a lot of people will have doubts. Remember that membership would have to convince both factions. You can see that sort of thing in supranational entities on earth now.
The collective that Jurati is the queen of is not the collective we are familiar with. She drew her numbers from the displaced and disaffected. People who volunteered to join rather than being compelled. This makes them fundamentally different from the collective. Much closer to the cooperative that is displayed in StarTrek Online. As such it is not the entirety of the borg that would be joining, if the original collective still exists. It would be her and whomever chose to join her. A much smaller faction that has yet to be contacted, until the crisis that lead to her creation. They would have to be approached as a completely different civilization because they are built on a different paradigm.
The entire idea of the Jurati Queen's Borg is that they *won't* be committing the crimes of the Borg but rather offering voluntary membership to those that cannot be saved by other means but the Borg can save via their nanoprobes. But as you say we don't know if they have taken over the Borg as a whole or are just a splinter group, similar to the other more benevolent splinter group we saw in Voyager. Also the request to join the federation is no doubt a result of Jurati's influence on the Borg Queen. Jurati is a very pro-Federation after all, which is not surprising since she grew up in it. After all they have merged into one being now.
It's possible but I think season 3 might tackle that issue. My theory is that a Borg splinter joining would divide the federation and Picard might have to convince them. I can see a splinter group like Jurati Borg Cooperative (J.B.C) as guardian at the gates type situation.
Story-wise I say yes. The Borg has been suffering from Villain creep, each time we see them they become less of a threat. Where stories, where Borg is adapting to a more corroborative form of the collective where individuals are still accepted, could lead to more unique and complex stories. A borg attack could be a rogue borg instead of the Jurati Borg and so needed to be stopped before the whole group is blamed. There is also the question of are the Borg led by Queen Jurati is the same as the Borg in other sectors. We do see there are splinter groups. We do not know if the Jurati Borg is connected to the greater Borg collective.
The Borg is the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced. They're not interested in political conquest, wealth or power as you know it. They're simply interested in your ship, its technology. They've identified it as something they can consume. a quote that the writers of Star Trek Picard have never heard before
I think the show goes out of its way to show this IS NOT the Borg we’ve seen in TNG and Voyager, but a completely different collective. We had no idea what the structure of this organization is.
Possible Spoilers for Star Trek Picard Season 2 in this video!
Short answer: No.
Long answer: The Borg are completely incompatible with the federation, thus making "membership" completely impossible. The Borg are built on assimilation, they are inherently a hostile entity. They require expansion through assimilation of new drones. They simply cannot be a federation member.
Oh no. Anyway.
Can we get a templin re imagining of the post dominion war federation.
@@carloschristanio4709 we could use a reimagined luke's jedi order
Please don't imply im ever watching that dogshit.
You may ask the question: "Can the Borg join the Federation?", but you forgot to ask the question: "Can the Federation join the Borg?"
yes, and their resistance is futile
Sure, as long as the Federation surrenders all their ships, modify their biological and technological distinctiveness to the Borg mindset, take the vaccine jab and adapt their culture to entertain them.
Yes. Just not willingly.
The Borg will be assimilated through the power of: root beer! So bubbly and cloying and happy, just like the Federation.
That question got an entire season and movie dedicated to it in canon, though.
Y'know, Lower Decks made "teaching the Borg Queen empathy" as a joke. Picard said, "Great idea! Let's do it!"
Based.
Technically I think it was Jurati. But the larger point is 100% accurate and hilarious.
Technically, it had already been done a few times. Hugh being the first and the pseudo-future Borg from Voyager made from the portable emitter and Seven's nanoprobes
I'm pretty sure the Jurati Borg are a separate splinter group, akin to Unimatrix Zero or the Cooperative, and not the main Collective. In the case of these splinter groups that allow individuality, voluntary assimilation, and hopefully voluntary deassimilation; then membership to the UFP is possible but it shouldn't be rushed. A defensive alliance or provisional association membership should more likely be established. The main Borg Collective though is an antithetical mirror to the UFP, so membership with that group isn't possible.
I don't think that the Jurati Borg are a splinter group of the Borg. As the Borg Queen stated, the Borg are aware of multiple timelines. I posit that the Jurati Borg are the Borg from one of those timelines, because I would tend to believe that Agnes being assimilated in 2024 creates a new timeline.
@@darkwalkermyth - i disagree. Agnes was assimilated by a queen from the 25th century. When they took that queen back to 2024 she became a temporal duplicate of the queen already in the delta quadrant.
Were the two queens aware of each other? That depends. The queen that merged with Jurati had no connection to the collective in the delta quadrant in the same way the queen in First Contact had no connection to it. Perhaps the act of traveling through time throws the queen out of temporal sync: she may be in 2024 or 2063 but the other queens she can sense in other timelines would all still be in her year of origin.
So if the delta quadrant collective remained unaware of the Jurati queen's existence until she regained temporal sync with them she may have been able to build her own voluntarist cooperative under their noses. And by the time she regained temporal sync, the prime timeline collective was already fragmented because of the events of Endgame. Indeed, after 2375 Jurati may have become the de facto queen of the prime timeline Borg because of Admiral Janeway's actions. Though it would have been a fractured collective of lost and confused drones that she would have had to sift through to reassimilate only those who volunteered and free those who wanted no part of it.
Which may be why she never showed up until 2500. She had a collective to reform in her new ideological framework and it took her a couple of decades to do so...
They are certainly a small group, who has been staying away from the main borg. When they needed help to harmonize shields, they had one mothership with an interesting design. The old borg would have also had many cubes.
@@nagillim7915 I thought so too. 1) Q sends them to an evil timeline where the Europa mission didn't happen. 2) They rob the queen and go further back in time to 2024 in that timeline. Where the evil borg collective and duplicate exists. 3) They make sure the mission happens, and we are on the same timeline. 4) Q sends them to the future.
The conflicts with evil borg happen.
Jurati-Borg stays away from influencing the timeline with her smaller group. Many join because of being lonely, having incurable diseases that borg implants can fix, and they somehow let more individuality retained, while still sharing thoughts. It's a borg collective only in name, because where the tech came from
Sounds more like a version of Star Trek Voyager's and Star Trek online's Borg Cooperative then the Borg Collective.
I'll be honest, I always liked the Borg being the ONE enemy that can't be reasoned with. Peace and negotiation has won out with every other enemy of the Federation, but the Borg were different. They were the one situation in which ideals must be put aside, and the enemy must simply be destroyed. I liked having that bit of necessary brutality among Star Trek's idealism
100% this.
The Federation already has Cybernetic races, Bynars, so it’s not too great a stretch. The primary issue between the Federation and the Borg is consent to be assimilated. If the Borg (under new leadership) agree to absorb only those who consent to be assimilated most of their problems resolve. And there would be those who want to join, even in the Federation’s utopia some just don’t feel whole.
This is 100% what the show seems to be going for as of now, and it sounds sensible enough
See theres the problem that all these new writers are overlooking.
The Borg dont have a leader. The queen is nothing more than a focal point of the Collective intelligence, designed to, as she well put it herself, bring order to chaos.
In PROPERLY done episodes, even in Voyager as maligned as some people complain about, she still does everything, even making deals with the Voyager crew, that ultimately benefit the Borg. Never straying from their primary and singular goal.
In Picard, they've done the same thing the writers for Halo tv show did to Master Chief, overly humanizing them for some unnecessary feel good connection.
They dont need it, certainly not the Borg. And not Master Chief either.
They are what they are, and dont need anything else.
It could be further argued if the colony in Voyager's "Unity" episode wanted to be a Federation member, would they be denied because they still have a collective concept, but believe in independent freedoms?
The problem with that is that the Borg would have no incentive to take that approach indefinately. At the end of the day they are a technological singularity, driven completely by logic and calculations, to them assimilation is imperative not because of ideology, emotions or anything that could be swayed, it is the result of calculations that ran for eons. They could subside that goal temporarily in case a greater threat forces them to do so, but they'd never abandon it. As soon as the threat would be neutralized they'd surely return to their previous goal sooner or later and being part of the federation they'd have an incredible vantage point as well.
@@DraconX3 they're a group that's all about evolution and adaptation, seeing them as something that should be immutable throughout the centuries and completely monolithic seems wild to me.
But we'll see what future stories bring
Jurati's Borg seems to be a separate faction that presumably only assimilates volunteers or the dying.
This is the most logical conclusion. It cannot be all the Borg, because that would fundamentally alter history. The Borg, as we understood them traditionally, would still have had to exist.
So the most likely scenario is Jurati created a new collective that was distinct from the Borg we know. We can assume from their actions that Jurati's proposal met with success
This seems like a shaky hypotetical: the group that is asking for provisional membership is not the same as the Borg of old, but we simply do not know what happened to them during the 400ish years of divergent development. We obviously can't tell until we learn more about them.
The question is ultimately redundant. The Borg we know come from the Classic Continuity. Secret Hideout, in one half series based in an arguable alternative continuity reboot, as was reported when STD came around, has shown Picard moving across 4 continuities. Picards own, the dark Federation, the past of the dark Federation, and Picards own time after stomping on butterflies in the past… and leaving Rios behind to effect the past, where once his influence was absent.
Secret Hideout has changed the nature of the Borg to fit their vision of agenda driven narrative storytelling. Picard uses Classic Trek as a template, but the Picard shows past should not be assumed to be in continuity with Classic Trek. After all, Secret Hideout refute this notion in how they handle continuity that it’s all but assured one thing… aside from STD and SNW, no show they have made has direct continuity with the other, suggesting it’s all separated realities that allow their writers to write whatever they want, without having to worry about continuity ramifications.
Indeed. Not the borg of old. Not even the same people. It's a borg queen from alt universe Merged with a human from prime time line. And their mission was assimilated by request. Not by force.
Agreed. This is the Borg Cooperative, not the Borg Collective.
@@baskkev7459 When it comes to the universes I've figured out a basic rule that seems to work.
Classic - TOS to ENT.
Kelvin - JJ's movies
Prime - A slight of hand to imply it is classic, but in reality is a continuity we've never seen that JJ could pluck elements he liked out of while ignoring the rest. It might include STD, but seeing as STD has a Spock with learning difficulties and is Pon Farring ahead of schedule, the one thing we can take as truth is that it cannot be classic Trek.
ALT - Everything Secret Hideout has produced to date that does not fit into the three above. It is entirely possible that Kurtzman's and JJ's plan plan to develop multiple continuities, as seen in the Count Down comic, no series aside from STD and SNW are of the same continuity in order to allow the writers to write stories, without having to learn 30+ years of Classic Trek
@@davfree9732 yup.
But when it comes to this borg it's simpel.
Its comparing Germany nzi from ww2 with current Germany.... 2 whole different countries.
It was confirmed that it's merely a group created by Jurati Queen that wants to join, that works similarly to or is the Borg Cooperative. This is more or less confirmed by the fact that the Borg didn't send more ships to shield the galaxy from the beam by itself, because that Supership is the only ship capable of doing this and needed Starfleet help.
Yes. The request was predicated on the mini-Collective being the "guardian at the gates"for which they'd need Fed support. Their only other option is to be destroyed. Everyone else is all smiles but the Borg are desperate here. I wouldn't trust them.
The only iteration of the borgs that could even remotely qualify to join the federation was the Cooperative from Voyager or anything else that would be like them, under any other circumnstance the honest and smart answer would be absolutely not.
Jurati's Borg have had 400ish years of divergent development from the Borg we know, we can't quite tell how they operate at this point
@@mella4376 The very essence of the borg is that they are a cybernetic hive mind, designed to integrate other minds into itself weaponizing them and their host-bodies and thus grow stronger and more apt at continuing it's expansion, the try definition of the concept of technological singularity, transhumanism and cyborgs.
If they opreated in any other way they'd not be Borg anymore, they'd be something else but certainly not Borgs.
@@juimymary9951 transhumanism and the Borg are all about evolution and adaptation. Thinking Jurati's spinter group couldn't become a version of the collective that is radically different but still shares enough genetic material with the original seems needlessly limiting
@@mella4376 Hmmm... I think I see what you mean, after all the Borg cooperative was called Borg coming to think of it. Though then, at that stage they'd be more like the Borg Cooperative than the Borg collective.
@@juimymary9951 yeah there might be some renaming/relabelling for at least the splinter faction (if that's indeed what they'll remain) moving forward, we'll see what they go for
"Your opinions will adapt to service mine."
That is literally online interaction in a nutshell.
Even if the Borg adapted to meet the requirements for joining, it's hard to imagine this isn't a ploy to gain a strategic foothold in federation space and then revert to their assimilating nature when it's most advantageous to do so. Even forming non-aggression pacts and slowly gaining the federation's trust would seem disingenuous; since the Borg likely plan things out centuries in advance, they could be the best non-aggressive neighbors in the galaxy but we could never ever trust them.
One word: "Scorpion"
Assimilation doesn't necessarily have to be involuntary. If the borg collective changed its branding, then it could slowly siphon and assimilate cultures and tech, not to mention drawing individuals to the collective. Less potential for damage to the collective as a whole, while still getting what they want in the end.
And plus the federation has a policy of don't dick around with Borg technology or it will assimilate you. I mean yeah they study it but they have severe caution. When handling the technology I mean the USS Voyager has Borg technology inside of it.
But seven to nine when she was on the crew had to be very careful about what she did with it.
@@Cyberwar101 exactly. Since they plan so far ahead I don’t know why they forced the issue at all; you’d get better results by having them willingly join, and sooner or later they’d all admit your inevitability and decide to join. So why not just move on to the next place if one place isn’t ready? In the long long term it doesn’t matter at worst and at best you get a more effective outcome.
A "provisional" membership in this context means 'you can navigate our space without an immediate Vulcan Hello'...
Also, Jurati expressly created a new collective - which is why no one has heard of her...
If I was writing the lore, the Borg Union (my headcannon name for Jurati's group instead of the more 'sinister' Collective) would be small, especially compared to the Collective. Instead of forced assimilation, it's voluntary, either offered to non-Borg, or to drones in the Collective that show signs of 'disharmony' and potential independence. It's possible to have a gestalt consciousness for the Union, but the individual members are still individuals capable of acting and thinking for themselves. There's been Borg splinter groups before (and they could come back as having joined or allied with the Union) that regained their individuality, but still used there own group's 'collective' to guide their overall actions for the Greater Good. As for the 24th century tech from La Sirena, doesn't matter, because the smart thinking would be to keep it well hidden. The Collective has numerical superiority, and risking ANY of that tech being assimilated would risk the future timeline. Buried deep inside a planet, far outside future Borg space, and rigged to vaporize down to the molecular level if it's threatened.
Borg joining the Federation should, if done right, be a huge story. Imagine Reagan announcing the Soviets are joining the United States. How many Federation member worlds would threaten to leave, and all the governments outside the Federation that have suffered from the Borg turning hostile. The Federation has it's own 'collective' pushing for the Greater Good, but there's definitely a point where individuals will plant their feet and say 'No! That's too damn far for me!'.
Hot Take: The Borg are a single entity and thus would apply to join Starfleet in the same way Nog did.
By single entity you mean the Jurati-queen? So the massive ship she has, was built by her self? Well, for me being the Borg queen, we would certainly assimilate others into collective to build that ship (and many others, so we could help others to achieve perfection ;-).
When the borg first appeared it seemed like they could vat-grow organic life to become drones. My guess is assimilation was just a faster, energy-efficient means of expanding as that's their goal.
If it were possible to shift their aims from exponential growth it could be possible to make the both no longer rely on assimilation, rather cloning and other forms of artificial birth.
Don't get that much new information to add to the Borg's perfection, from a vat grown drone. Since they are a blank slate with no memories or experience of life outside the collective.
The life produced in their ships is probably to slowly expand and also maintain drone numbers from them dying either in battle, an accident or old age.
Assimilation is to increase the diversity and technology of their own to increase their so-called perfection
sticking a fully grown meatball with some nanites sure is more efficient then growing them from cells yourself!
not to mention teenage drones... ugh😅
@@misterjei You also get 0 new information from assimilating 99% of population of a species. But you get workforce (and computational power?).
@@ImperativeGames But he borg are after that 1%, and even more importantly, the unique minds capable of coming up with those new ideas
Last time I was this early, Jean Luc was still Locutus
Jurati’s Helper Borg I can only assume are a splinter element of the larger collective, otherwise there would’ve been significant changes to the future they returned to.
I think you're putting more thought in this than the writers of Picard.
As was said, if the 'Borg-rati' Queen gives all the 'drones' independence, first, then the Federation should consider allowing them to join.
Real world fact is, though, I don't think the writers have thought about this anywhere near as deeply as the Templin Institute has, which is a shame.
the thing is, logically, those borgs are a different collective than the one we've seen so far... they arrived through a space time portal and they started in the 21st century from a borg queen of another timeline... so the regular borg must still be there scattered in the delta quadrant, but those new ones arrived from somewhere else, having developed for 400 years parallel to the regular ones.
I imagine that the borg would do better as maybe an associate to the federation and not a full member. As you said their collective is antithetical to the federation's ideals
I think that's what the "provisional" is supposed to mean here, given they stated a specific purpose. I'm curious at what Agnes' collective is like.
Me at the protest outside of San Francisco holding a sign that says. "No Admittance to the Borg!" And another that says "Remember Wolf 359!"
In regards to a splinter group, I think that it is possible.
But as a whole, I agreed that The Borg shouldn't be included. It is highly likely that a betrayal or importation of slaves is in the future. The Borg needs to maintain its numbers. Indirect involvement of piracy is encouraged.
And this will cause embargoes and conflicts between the Federation and The Borg.
The Borg were to represent the absolute opposite to the Federation.
On one hand you have a entity that goes out actively looking for civilizations to add to there hive mind, stripping away cultural individuality, absorbing technological, scientific and industrial achievements and forcing others to confirm to their ideology.
And the others the Borg.
The Borg as also deceptive and willing to pretend to be allies before later betrayals. Perfectly possible the Borg would integrate into the federation over 1000s years before betraying the federation and assimilating all its people.
Well, they’re both assimilating mega cultures. The only difference is that one announces their intentions.
drink the root beer
"I know you. I was like you once, but then I opened my eyes. Open your eyes, Captain. Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves paradise. Everyone should want to be in the Federation. Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day they can take their 'rightful place' on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious. You assimilate people and they don't even know it."
- Michael Eddington
Nice callback
Ah yes. Slavery is better than a democratic government with issues because the slavers are honest.
Are you drunk? Or wait is that you putin?
@@antiboyscout ugh "its vile"
*Grabs a Phaser Rifle*
I’ve always wanted to do this…
“NNNOOOO!”
*smashes model starships*
No, the collective as we understand it cannot join the federation. Ever.
I would like to move this question to a more absctract "can a hive mind join a federation of alien species?"
I'm talking about a REAL hive mind, the Tyranid kind, where the single organism has no individual will and they are all part of a bigger united consciousness.
That's an interesting scenario to imagine.
I think that's possible - communication protocols can be setup (or special communication members bred by the hive mind), and as long as it understands that not every individual speaks for the whole when dealing with individuals, I can see it working out. It would be an interesting episode of tng to have the crew deal with a trade dispute between a hive mind and some traders that have both misunderstood the other
I think a tyranid kind of hive mind could never be admitted. Tyranid meaning there are conscious individuals that are suppressed by the hive. However a species with a hive mind, where each 'unit' is just a part of the large organism; there should be no problem for them/it to join the Federation. You could actually say that a human is a hive mind that controlls all those individual organisms that make our body.
As I've mentioned already in some other comment, we could imagine a 'bee' species. There could be some bee-queen running it all, and then there would be a worker-bees that just follow orders and report results without asking questions. It would be a natural state of their existence. They wouldn't mind and Federation could be also ok with that. Another example might be the Binars. They seem to be individuals connected into something that could be described as a hive mind. But their 'collective' doesn't seem to be restrictive or centrally controlled by any higher force, like the Borg.
Of cource if the values of the Federation wouldn't be an issue, if there is just some kind of an interstellar alliance, then the question would only be: whether that tyranid hive mind could pose a threat to other members of that alliance.
Short answer, not the Borg we know, but a group of borg that has separated from or exists independent of the collective? That is possible. I always thought that Unimatrix Zero would become a faction that still used Borg technology. I could see them coming to the Federation post voyager, this new collective under Jurati is also one that stands apart.
That should have been an ongoing storyline in Voy Season 7; the Borg 'civil' war.
in startrek online they basically are a "peaceful" augmented faction known as "liberated borg"
I honestly would not enjoy countless assimilated worlds walking around in the head of a single living being standing right next to me
Now, THIS is interesting.
Whoever thought THIS question, would come up.
I've read a number of the comments so far.
I don't think full membership of even a splinter Borg is possible.
An alliance or associate membership at best, is possible. Maybe.
The Borg, even in the splinter group formation, could not check off many of the Federation's boxes.
For the Borg to comply, they would not be Borg.
Would the Borg splinter want to evolve(or devolve) into something else?
The Borg splinter, I suspect, wants protection, from the Borg Collective.
History has long arms, this could fracture the Federation, imagine the arguments that
would fly in the Council, not to mention member worlds themselves.
Only in Trek, could this quandry appear.
The specific reason for "membership" is that the thing Queen Jurati wants to patrol is in Federation space.
I also infer the "provisional" is less about the Jurati Borg wanting an exit clause and more about it being provisional while the application is studied, so they can carry out their mission.
Further, I think it's a mistake to assume this collective is even part of the traditional collective, as the new Queen had an entirely new approach to assimilation. I would read that as her collective, perhaps just that ship, has developed independently of the collective as we know it, more akin to Voyager' s Borg Cooperative.
If you told me that the Klingons, the Romulans, hell even the Dominion requested to join the Federation, it would sound far fetched but believable if they had suffered some degradation in authority and security to the point that they risked losing territory to hostile powers. In that sense, joining the Federation would be more preferable since you are not risking occupation and destruction of culture. It makes sense on the Federation side since although very different culturally, they are still sentient races that can grow into the Union.
The Borg no, they don't produce, just consume. There are probably AI races that can more easily join the Federation as you're talking about a race that comes to planets, forces a race to give up it's sentience and join a hive mind. A non aggression treaty, maybe but I'd still use the time to gather more weapons and ships in case they decide to 'grow their numbers' again.
A thing that occurred to my mind as I read over some of the commentary here is a scenario regarding Jurati's Borg, upon an encounter with either traders or pirates or some other group that stumbled into their space. I see Jurati's Borg existing as both individuals and members of a gestalt consciousness, able to merge with and extricate themselves from it at will while remaining intimately connected to the hive mind. Such a group that encountered them would see individual Borg interacting with each other, helping each other and socialising with each other on an individual basis, and then upon recognition of the presence of the traders/pirates/what have you, they look at each other and then in the next instant they look as one at the group and speak with the voice of the Collective, warning them not to take advantage of their generosity or their amity, else they earn the wrath of the New Borg and their Queen.
I mean you could ask the question back in 1985 "could the federation and the Klingons EVER have a true alliance?"
Jurati's borg aren't going anywhere and could have taken over all of that fleets personnel if she wanted to. So they should and be proven useful.
Sometimes all it takes is a gamble under the right circumstances
To answer this question, I dug into Memory Alpha, and came up with the following (Note: Copied directly from the source itself):
1) Admittance into the Federation can be granted either by invitation or successful petition submitted by a world, civilization, or government desiring to join voluntarily. In the second case, membership is granted only upon satisfaction of meeting certain requirements and conditions. Firstly, the government of the prospective member submitted an official petition to the Federation Council, outlining its desire to join. A lengthy, thorough investigation of the prospective member's culture followed, including copying records from the applicant's central computer. This investigation could last several years, and was done to ascertain whether or not the culture genuinely shared the values of the Federation: values of benevolence, peaceful co-existence and co-operation, the rule of law, justice, and equal rights and freedoms.
2) Even before the investigation, the prospective member had to meet certain requirements. These were as follows:
- It had to have an "advanced level of technology." The Federation's baseline definition of this term was the capability for "faster-than-light" travel.
- Its government should have achieved stable planetary political unity, demonstrating a resolution of social and political differences and a respect of the rights of the individual. Membership was still considered if there was an isolated faction present that did not want membership, but this was a rare case.
- No form of caste discrimination was to be practiced.
3) Every acceding member had to go through the same admittance process, which included a specific (yet undefined) timetable.
So as far as standard membership goes, the Borg would not qualify, as their "society" violates several tenants that are inherent to the status of the Federation as a whole. However, I COULD see a provisional membership being allowed, a sort of "special status" being granted to the Borg Collective. I still think that quite a few members in the Federation, let alone the Quadrants as a whole, would object to the Borg becoming a pseudo-member state in the Federation, given the history and loads of bad blood between the Collective and...basically everyone else in the galaxy.
This is like asking if the Imperium could keep the Tyranids as pets
The Borg joining the federation whether or not its just Jurati's group or the entire collective, I can say one thing, assuming that they are willing to adhere to the UFP's rules and not betray them it would be a huge power boost to the Starfleet and essentially make the UFP near invincible, though its members and citizens will have a hard time adjusting to this and some will probably rebel, and cause some unstability
Aren't these Borg different from those encountered previously?
In other videos, you talk about comparing situations in alternate realities to a hypothetical, real world scenario. Here is mine:
The leader of North Korea announces to the world that he would like his country to join NATO. This would be absolutely improbable with their current state, as human rights in the country are practically nonexistent, much the same way that the someone's free will is stripped from them when they assimilate into the Borg.
As if NATO gave a damn about human rights.
I haven't seen this show, but I can't even imagine *why* let alone *how* the Borg would join the Federation.
timetravel, canon change^^...... to not give spoilers (but Picard is just another character driven drama in a known scifi setting) and seven is lesbian now too apparently, but hey all series these days need that these days it seems.
@@mho...
Lesbian characters aren't new to Star Trek so Seven isn't unique.
yeeah but it feel sooo forced PC in the last years in sooo many movies/series ... just feels artificial, like "they have to include it" if it makes sense in that story or not, thats all im saying!
@@mho... It's star trek, TOS had a black woman who routinely took command, a Russian on the bridge, the captain and first officer were played by Jews (also the Russian), AND the last member of the bridge crew was Japanese. Prioritizing casting of minority groups has kind of been a star trek thing since d1 and making "infinite diversity in infinite combinations" a central value was a pretty pronounced statement of intent.
Honestly, it's weird how little gay there is in modern Trek given that view. Though I guess we can chalk that up to Rick Berman suppressing it in the 90s so the staff being allowed to put even this amount of gay in feels like a release.
Many many many MANY cosmic retcons
the Borg are essentially a dark reflection of the utopian Federation of TNG and DS9, so them becoming a part of the Federation in the "New Trek" is actually really fitting and almost feels like a under-the-table dig at the conformist, dystopian turn the Star Trek franchise has taken.
Wasn't even so utopian, in DS9. (Ask Senator Vreenak.)
The Borg in their normal state would not even ask for nor consider any form of cooperation that isn't unconditional assimilation into their collective. If they do, they're obviously not borg, individuality of any kind and everything associated with it is canonically a malfunction to them, and their actual response to this happening in the past was to amputate the malfunctioning drones from the rest of the collective if sublimation couldn't be reestablished.
I definitely interpreted it as Queen Jurati's ship being from something other than the Collective we've known, since they made such a big deal about doing things differently but the villainous Collective was still part of the timeline. Since fundamentally altering centuries of Borg history would have been a Mothra-scale butterfly effect. Maybe it was something from a different timeline where they took the ship and founded something more akin to the Borg Cooperative? Who knows.
So, yeah, the Collective joining the Federation would be totally absurd. But if it's a version of the Borg with a fundamentally different philosophy built on people joining voluntarily and uncoerced, or formed from people liberated from the Collective who willingly chose to remain part of a gestalt conciousness, or something along those lines, I could see it happening.
Short answer: no.
Long answer: no with good reasons.
Well, for Jeradi's Borg to arrive at the scene without having already altered the timeline, they had to exist both independent of the Prime Universe Borg (since her Borg Queen is from an alternate timeline) and acting in ways that did not change the known timeline...something a "temporally aware" being like the Borg Queen would know what was okay to do and what was not okay to do.
SIDEBAR before I continue: I suspect the Borg, based on discussions with Guinan, gained their temporal awareness from the El-Aurians when their world was assimilated (and possibly why even the Q are afraid of them...."How many times do I have to tell you, do NOT PROVOKE THE BORG?!")
So, the questions that remain are:
1. When Future Janeway infected the Borg Queen, did it wipe out ALL the Borg?
1a. If YES, then Jeradi-Borg was free to expand her activity...possibly even offering disconnected Borg throughout the Delta Quadrant a new home to feel "whole."
1b. If NO, was there a NEW Borg Queen?
2. If there is a NEW Borg Queen in the Prime Universe, and Jeradi-Borg is simply now free to act because she caught up to the moment Jeradi went back, then there are TWO Collectives. So, how will Jeradi deal with a Borg Queen who has NOT had her identity stripped down to a single entity capable of being overpowered by her? Eventually, the two are gonna bump heads.
Jurati, not Jeradi.
God the Picard series is such a cluster fork
Membership is Inevitable.
Your technology and cculture will adapt to serve with us.
We are the Federation.
You are granted membership.
Opposition is pointless.
I got the impression that by the time that it's Juratti, the Borg are pretty much annihilated thanks to Janeway's actions. Even in Season 1 of Picard, the Borg Cube that we see consisted of drones that were wanting liberty and reclaiming their lives. The only problem was that they were under Romulan control. If the Borg under Juratti have truly embraced new values then the answer is yes. If that is the case, then it might have been better to say, the "Borg Under My Rule wish to serve the Federation." It would have made more feasible sense. By then, you will see a lot of Borg drones that are separated from the collective, can live their own lives, but have the choice to "talk and operate" inside of a collective (almost like we see with Voyager's episode "Unity" of a Borg people separated from the collective, but still wanting to have their own collective to establish a form of order). Almost like the Binars, in a way. I can believe that's what Juratti would have wanted as well.
“ I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends” - Abraham Lincoln
I got the impression that this particular Borg Collective was designed up as a more voluntary and benevolent version than the previous one. This may mean too that this particular Borg cell is separate from other Borg. The "provisional membership" may only apply to that one particular Borg ship and members of that hive mind.
That entirely lies on the intentions and requirements of the Borg and the capacity of their collective to endure other species without intervening. We *did* see the Borg easily suprass themselves and cooporate with other species when the emergency or necessity demands it; but when on stable conditions ? That is the critical point
The real question is "Can the Federation trust the Borg just enough to not assimilate by force?"
"We are the Federation. Lower your shields and surrender your weapons. We will add your cultural and political distinctiveness to our own. Your military will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile."
In all seriousness though, the Federation clearly doesn't allow genetic or cybernetic alteration to allow people to preform at unnatural levels, since Eugenics is illegal, and we don't see anyone who looks like a Tech Priest from 40K running around in the Federation. The Borg are basically nothing BUT those changes, so Borg society would need to change just to even legally operate in Federation space, to say nothing of formally joining.
"We are the Federation. Your technological and cultural distinctiveness will be added to our own eventually. Resistance is acceptable, we can wait."
This sounds much more natural.
there’s a cybernetic race already apart of the federation.
an in TNG the enterprise actually visits a human colony made out of genetically enhanced and engineered people
@@draconisthewyvern3664 I would need to see the episode, because Bashir's and Khan's personal plots are both related as to how the Federation doesn't allow super humans.
You are mixing up United Earth and the Federation.
Still better odds of Borg joining the Federation than Paramount making a good Star Trek show these days
To assimilate or not to assimilate? That is the question. 💀
Would the Borg free all their assimilated drones?
I wish Kurtzman never got his hands on Star Trek...
The Borg as they exist in Picard, yes. There was some basic rules laid out when the Queen and Jurati merged, one of which was assimilation was willing, "...based not on assimilation but salvation..." and recognition of the uniqueness of its members. It is a smaller Borg but it is a stronger, more cohesive Borg.
The question is faulty since it is in relation to regular timeline borg and not alternate Q-retire timeline borg. it was the latter who requested provincial membership in the federation to become the Guardians of the gate. There is nothing to indicate that these new borg are more than this one ship.
Provisional, not provincial.
@@Robert_Douglass Congratulations! You found a spelling error on the internet! Hope you finally feel accomplished!
Something to consider - Agnes/Queen is the only Borg we actually see and perhaps there are no other drones. That huge ship (apparently having assimilated Superman's Kryptonian technology at some point) may be akin to the Fessarius, controlled by a lone occupant Balok. When Jurati says "We request...", she may be referring solely to herself and the Queen. And as Agnes already is a natural born member citizen of the Federation, with every right to be in Federation space, her request can't really be refused legally and is being made more out of courtesy with the Borg Queen's admittance coming automatically much like a foreign born spouse. And they did just save billions of people without assimilating any of them or turning their own starships against the Alpha Quadrant.
You've pretty much nailed the requirements to join the Federation - they are explained at one point during one of the shows.
As to... their request... They dont actually NEED Federation membership in order to remain in Federation Space, work within a Federation Fleet Taskforce, or be potentially supplied by Federation Worlds. The Federation and Starfleet has done this repeatedly over its history.
And no... the Borg, even a splinter group, operating within a Collective where it's members have been abducted, tortured, mutilated and kept in forced labor - could ever possibly be admitted into the Federation - let alone the public outcry from Federation worlds and citizens.
Finally a member of the federation that makes Janeway look good after the time-warcrimes.
"Resistance is allowed"
It has been confirmed by Terry Matalas, Writer for Star Trek Picard, that Jurati Borg and the classical Borg are two very distinct entities. Jurati Borg has been active, but has been keeping to themselves in the background, all this time. While the "Classics" are holding back in the Delta Quadrant, licking their wounds, after the events of Star Trek Voyager.
Funny thing in Lower Decks episode the Boimler Effect in the far future in a open air classroom where they celebrate past Starfleet heroes like Brad Boimler and Miles O'Brian among this was a Borg kid.
At the time it was shown it was asked how was that possible?
In exceptional cases, membership has been extended not long after first contact has occurred. In Star Trek: Insurrection, the planet Evora joined the Federation barely a year after first contact because the Federation needed more members during the Dominion War.
Seeing how every drone in the borg just about became a drone through force and against their will the answer is no no the borg cannot join the federation that's like asking if the Soviet Union could join the United States they're too completely opposite of each other
Given that star Trek 6 was about the Soviet Union analogue making peace with the America analogue, I'm not sure at least for star trek it's a good counter-example.
@@matthewanderson5198 thats making peace, not joining as one country. and the Klingons uses a Feudal System not true Communism like the Borg did, and the movie was also very flawed. Directed by Nimoy who thought he was smarter than he actually was.
@@madkabal I didn't suggest they were communists, I just think it's funny that you're pointing to what star trek was doing by analogy decades ago.
The borg aren't communists, they're a monarchy, but specifically an ant monarchy. It's the federation that are heavily inspired by socialist ideals.
And while we can have our disagreements with the quality of what was done, at the end of the day, star trek an idealistic show primarily for an idealistic audience. The desire to reach for and embrace some sort of commonality and ultimately come together is one of it's most fundamental elements.
(also, I'm of the opinion that originally the Klingon empire did join the federation but it got reconnected out and the in universe explanation is that the changes made due to yesterday's enterprise)
@@matthewanderson5198 They're Communists dude there is no individuality. everyone is equal there is no classes of wealth, Every citizen is simply a a drone that serves the state. It's Communist to the perfect level it is exactly what Marx has visioned the borg is the Communist dream. The Borg Queen that you are desperately trying to cling to to make your ideology look better is simply what happens when you have an administrator in charge of a Communist state. This is why Communist leaders have all of the power because when everyone is the same and no one has any power the "administrator" has all of the power. So nice try but no this is what your utopia looks like when it's followed through its logical conclusion. Your professor is selling you a load of b*******.
@@madkabal Literally everyone is not equals, they're under a literal queen, the drones are equals and the queen is royalty.
I'm not a communist, I just happen to know that absolute monarchy =/= communism, it's inspired by insect hives.
I could imagine one or even multiple splinter groups of the Borg joining with relative ease (I mean, there's still the things mentioned in the video about it being a prolonged process, with less serious co-operation agreements beforehand, but still), but the collective itself seems as pretty much the least likely candidate for Federation membership.
Note they only asked for provisional membership (in the show) normally in alot of organizations this can be granted before they are granted full membership and in alot of cases a review would have to be done after the fact. So it doesn't matter if they don't meet the requirements for full membership. Look at the EU or UN
I like the idea of a splinter group of Borg that allows a limited form of assimilation. I think that is a rich vein that has not been explored. A connected consciousness but retaining some individuality.
An interesting idea to conform the Borg into the ideals of the Federation would be to have the Borg alter their collective from an Overmind model to a Concensus model. This makes it so the entire collective make the decisions their people take rather than a single one that controls the collective. For reference the Geth in Mass Effect have a system like this and it's probably the closest form of democracy a hive mind can be.
I had the Borg make peace with the Federation over 5 years ago in my Star Trek Universe Fan Fiction stories In one called Purrsistance is Futile. I took the idea that at some point the Borg with all that had gone wrong in the Voyager Series and First Contact, would see an accomodation with the Federation as a plus. I even postulated that might have been why "Q" brought the Borg and Federation into contact in the first place! To moderate the Borg's influence on the galaxy.
A unified planetary government is not a strict requirement for federation membership. In the TNG episode “Attached” we are introduced to the world of Kesprytt, which had two rival governments. Despite this division the Kes were still being considered for membership. The issue of a unified planetary government was directly addressed in the episode with Troy asking if Earth would have been ineligible for federation membership had the Swiss, a historically neutral nation, refused to join the United Earth government.
Nor are democracy, rule of law, sapient rights, or protection of minorities likely to be strict requirements. Those, after all, are values of one specific cultural tradition on Earth, and not even universal to humanity. As such they can’t be expected to be common in alien societies. The sole requirements for federation membership are likely to be the willingness of existing member states to accept the new member and that new member’s own willingness to join. Everything else will have to be negotiable. So yes, the Borg can join.
Thank you for pointing out the concept that an alliance/membership in the federation is a big deal and there are several steps any faction has to take before it is even a possibility. A lot of media likes to portray the idea that alliances between factions are the first step for cooperation when they would actually be the last.
the fact that the borg are adapting to have more individuality and even bothered to ask is positive, but you are right, one step at a time... it's easy to fall back on what you knew before IF something creates snags that confuse or frustrate... internal dynamics of the collective will rise, the question is and will always be there about trust. but i do not see it as an impossibility. one step at a time, and even IF they are never fully brought in, these steps will strengthen bonds of those that do gain trust.... and cooperation is a two way street. as a side note, throughout history even enemies have joined forces to fight another threat to them both... to overcome or survive at least in part from that third "forces" actions. peace.
My thinking is Agnus's Borg developed separately from the main Borg Collective, laying low as to not draw the attention of main hive and I think she stayed true to her idea of creating a new type of Borg based on charity instead of conquest. It probably doesn't have the sheer numbers and power the old Collective had but since its members joined voluntarily instead of forcibly, I think they'd make for an even more cohesive and harmonious hive mind than the old Borg
Agnes
...wow...when you thought Star Trek Picard couldn't get anymore ridicolous than it actually is! XD
That scene made me cringe so freaking hard!
it'd be one hell of spactacular coup if they could get the borg on the federation's side. However i'm not sure it can be done. While maybe not a member state, perhaps something like a partner system or an allience or something would be more fitting.
If you want to know what a world must do to join the cloud cities in the TOS is an excellent episode. Also Star Trek Online has the liberated Borg and the part of the new colletcive. I was actually designing a mission for the game (when they took the toolkit away) discussing if Borg could 'go home' and under what conditions people might willingly join the Borg's new collective.
We are the Canadian Borg. Your culture will please serve ours. It would be rude to refuse eh?
They can, but it will require some Austria-Hungary (or for Sci-Fi Mechanicus) esque compromise, except reversed with the Federation refusing to fully integrate the Borg.
Apart for the bad blood, it would take decades of reform for both before becoming economically, politically and socially compatible.
1: Queen Jurati doesn't request membership.... just provisional membership based on defending the anomoly and saving BILLIONS of lives, thereby showing good faith.
2: A hero admiral that also trusted Jurati and helped save BILLIONS of lives will carry some weight.
3: These borg are empirically different from the core collective, since they saved BILLIONS of lives.
4: F*ck all the haters.
The big question is if this group is a splinter group or not the key I believe in answering this question is that from all we know including the best source of information coming from seven is that as far as we know there is only one queen and if that's the case then these borg represent the entire collective of the hive mind. Yes there have been splitter groups but none of those groups had a queen over them all. The queen is the center the bringer of order to chaos so I believe that when she was made the queen of the collective there was a fundamental change in the nature of the Borg even guinan acknowledged that in time it might be possible to establish a peaceful delict with them.
I remember reading a comment (perhaps on this very channel frequency) saying that eventually, everybody ends up being assimilated into the Federation. They can wait.
I had seen it as not being THE Borg, but Jurati's collective. She and the Queen had set out to build a group based on consensual membership (though that could be argued as they would mostly be taking in the dying and desperate) - So while The Borg could never join, nor would they want to, Jurati's collective doesn't have the same baggage and negative press.
I highly doubt these things were considered by the writers of the scenario there, but certainly interesting to actually carry through.
I uh, went into Picard S2 with very different expectations of what we would get and the idea of The Borg being left a shell of themselves following 'Endgame' and pleading for membership intrigued me. I assumed the seizing of the Stargazer and the fleet was a desperate measure to draw enough 'Power' to keep their drones alive. And that it was more of a 'Social Quirk' that the Borg Queen did not ask permission for it. Like you have to teach a child to say 'Please' and 'Thank You'.
I believe that the Borg, robbed of their ability for violent subjugation and conquest, could be reformed into a cybernetic race of individuals acting as a part of a whole that would one day be able to join the Federation, as 'Lower Decks' implies in one of their episode. It just requires a great deal of personal growth on their part, and I guess on our part as well as the collective challenges a lot of what we consider to be conscious.
Concent for assimilation and ability to quit must be implemented
To me it was pretty clear in the dialog between Jurati and the Borg Queen before their integration that they were going to create a "New Borg" that would be separate from the primary Collective and would operate according to wholly different ideals - particularly of voluntary recruitment of "lost souls" who would actually want to join a hive mind of their own volition. The creation of this New Borg in the 21st century would leave plenty of time for them to grow into a significant force by the 25th.
Obviously there are a lot of questions left unanswered, including the scope of this separate collective and what they've been up to for four hundred years while the main collective has been wreaking havoc. But, it's conceivable that Jurati's collective has remained small in scope, perhaps limited to that single "Borg Star" as a nomadic society. A Borg variant of that nature, or even the Borg Cooperative from Voyager, could conceivably join the Federation. I can't imagine that the Federation would discriminate against a gestalt hive mind just for being a hive mind, if joining such a collective was a voluntary decision on the part of its members.
Can the Borg assimilate the writers of ST:Picard and turn them into maintenance drones or something?
That would be so nice...
I don't remember exactly which one, but in one episode of TNG, they were sent to make first contact with a planet that just developed warp tech and found that the planet didn't have a unified government, and it was stated that disqualified them from joining the Federation until they do. But, I don't think anything was said about it having to be a democracy.
On the subject of the Borg becoming a Federation member, though? Nope. Individuality is the least of the problems when it comes to the litany of issues with that prospect, and entire essays could be written going through all of them. A temporary alliance, political ploy, or some combination of the two, on the other hand? Well, the Borg have been trying to assimilate the Federation ever since Q exposed the Enterprise to them in season 1 of TNG, and repeatedly fail at making significant headway there, so their tactics continue to adapt.
You may be thinking of the episode "First Contact", not to be confused by the movie of the same name.
On more than one occasion the Federation has broken it's own rules on admitting members. The first instance we see was in Star Trek: Insurrection, where the Enterprise starts the film hosting a delegation from an alien species that had only just invented warp technology. On at least one occasion it is stated that the Dominion War has seen the Federation compromise on it's morals in order to have the upper hand.
Then, more recently, in one episode of Strange New Worlds we see how the Discovery-Control incident is observed by a nearby pre-warp civilisation. Despite not qualifying for it, they were accepted as members of the Federation in order to further cover up what had happened.
Theoretically, the Borg Collective could attain membership. It's just the circumstances would have to be quite exceptional. Individual former drones being accepted to Star Fleet was apparently controversial enough, so I do not think them parking a ship next to a space anomaly inside Federation territory would qualify. No matter how little is known about it's nature and origin.
The borg joining The federation through time travel shenanigans is the most Star Trek thing that could possibly have happened.
If this was the old days I'd say they'll play it off like the head snakes out of the first or second season and never speak of it again.
Membership of the collective proper is entirely impossible for it to become a member and remain the collective.
Splinter groups joining who have abandoned the hive mind to some extent it’s possible, like those from Uninmatrix Zero, though more centralize physically. The Cooperative from Voyager, is fuzzy since they did rejoin their own hive, so idk about that.
But yeah Federation membership is a big step and it being the borg, a lot of people will have doubts. Remember that membership would have to convince both factions. You can see that sort of thing in supranational entities on earth now.
A non-aggression pact would be a good start.
The collective that Jurati is the queen of is not the collective we are familiar with. She drew her numbers from the displaced and disaffected. People who volunteered to join rather than being compelled. This makes them fundamentally different from the collective. Much closer to the cooperative that is displayed in StarTrek Online. As such it is not the entirety of the borg that would be joining, if the original collective still exists. It would be her and whomever chose to join her. A much smaller faction that has yet to be contacted, until the crisis that lead to her creation. They would have to be approached as a completely different civilization because they are built on a different paradigm.
The entire idea of the Jurati Queen's Borg is that they *won't* be committing the crimes of the Borg but rather offering voluntary membership to those that cannot be saved by other means but the Borg can save via their nanoprobes. But as you say we don't know if they have taken over the Borg as a whole or are just a splinter group, similar to the other more benevolent splinter group we saw in Voyager.
Also the request to join the federation is no doubt a result of Jurati's influence on the Borg Queen. Jurati is a very pro-Federation after all, which is not surprising since she grew up in it. After all they have merged into one being now.
It's possible but I think season 3 might tackle that issue. My theory is that a Borg splinter joining would divide the federation and Picard might have to convince them. I can see a splinter group like Jurati Borg Cooperative (J.B.C) as guardian at the gates type situation.
Story-wise I say yes. The Borg has been suffering from Villain creep, each time we see them they become less of a threat. Where stories, where Borg is adapting to a more corroborative form of the collective where individuals are still accepted, could lead to more unique and complex stories. A borg attack could be a rogue borg instead of the Jurati Borg and so needed to be stopped before the whole group is blamed.
There is also the question of are the Borg led by Queen Jurati is the same as the Borg in other sectors. We do see there are splinter groups. We do not know if the Jurati Borg is connected to the greater Borg collective.
Well this explains what happened to the "future" in Voyager where the Borg were treated as a non-threat.
The Borg is the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced. They're not interested in political conquest, wealth or power as you know it. They're simply interested in your ship, its technology. They've identified it as something they can consume.
a quote that the writers of Star Trek Picard have never heard before
I think the show goes out of its way to show this IS NOT the Borg we’ve seen in TNG and Voyager, but a completely different collective. We had no idea what the structure of this organization is.
The Borg would have to use inefficient recruitment methods, not their very efficient assimilation methods. Imagine Borg baby farms.
This is like asking if matter and antimatter can walk hand in hand in harmony.