I do that journey from Clapham to Watford and always have to wait at Willesden, now I know to tap out when I get there instead of standing around for ten minutes waiting for my train!! This video is great.
farfett_il-lejl that’s the problem. London is VERY expensive, if you somehow don’t get caught out by high property prices, you definitely will with transport. Driving around London is not worth the headaches of bus lanes, car bans, low emission zones... it’s so easy to get caught out and fined. Public transport really is the only practical way around London. Everyone I know who lives in and around London only have cars for the soul purpose of when they leave the city. €30 a month is far too good value for London.
Although you're supposed to pay for the zones you go through, a lovely little hack is that if you want to go from Highbury and Islington to West Brompton, you can go through zone 1 on the underground (~30 mins as opposed to ~45 on the overground) and still pay a Zone 2 only fare, because the system can't tell which route you took!
After hours of searching - I've got an oyster anomaly! On the new Gatwick extension, Upminster - Gatwick costs £16.20. However, Upminster - Coulsdon South costs £7.70 and Coulsdon South - Gatwick costs £5.20. This means that, if you touch out at Coulsdon South, your journey is £3.30 cheaper! That's enough for a cup of coffee and a bit left over!
It's similar at Stansted - you can't use Oyster but with paper tickets instead of buying Liv St to Stansted Airport you can save money by buying two singles, Liv St to Stansted Mountfitchet and then Stansted Mountfitchet to Stansted Airport. And as long as the train stops there, you can stay on the same train.
@@steved8193just checked, and splitting your journey to stansted makes it around £3 more expensive, i checked splitting at tottenham hale, bishops stortford and stansted airport
The problem isn't the Oyster Card, it's the pricing. It's the same when you buy normal tickets in advance, the Oyster Card is just hiding this. It get's even more confusing when you use a boat at the Thames. Even so you own a travelcard for the needed zones you just get a discount instead of riding for free, the same goes with the cablecar. In Hamburg Germany for example all ferry services are fully integrated in the normal fares.An other "anomaly" that has to do with the travelcards is the pricing for buses and trams. Regardless witch zones are included in your travelcard it covers all busses in all zones. Similar thing goes on with the trams. If your travelcard includes one of the tram zones you could use the whole tram network. This could be useful if you live relatively near a zone boarder and you could take a bus to a station that's in the next zone and therefor save the money for adding another zone. This could be almost 500 Pound when stepping back from zone 8 to zone 7 for an annual pass.
My local transit company did away with zones years ago, and you know... I am a transit nerd. I’d love to pay less than everyone around me for successfully navigating a complicated system, but also our transit system is so simple you only have to tap on, not off.
Bus fare capping can cause issues when also using the tube off peak but the bus at peak time. It's sometimes cheaper to pay with one oyster card for your early peak bus journeys and pay with a different card to travel on the tubes later (off peak) as your cap will be at the lower off peak price. This was true a few years ago, dunno if tfl fixed that yet.
Here in Milan if you get the subscription as a student you pay 22 euro a month (19.40£) and you can travel LIMITLESS at any time every day of the month on buses, underground, trams and urban trains in an area that would be like saying up to zone 4 in London i would say. So yes, transport in the UK it's a hell of a lot expensive As a normal person (not student) the monthly subscription fare it's like 30/32 euros (28£)
+luca milano - because in The UK, the transport system is privatised. Trains companies and Buses operators are private companies. In London, we have two companies - Arriva and Deutsche Bahn who own and operate buses across London and outside the capital.
I've discovered what might be an interesting anomaly - can someone test this please? (Not a London resident myself.) I discovered this when investigating the new(-ish) Overground circle, and ended up checking the fares Clapham Junction -> Highbury & Islington. Here's what fare finder says: Default fare: 1.70/1.50 (TfL-LU zone 2) - obviously this is for using the Overground circle in either direction (west making more sense) Alternatives: 4.30/3.70 (NR1-T zones 1-2) if changing to the tube at [huge list of stations] - this is obviously taking Southern or SWT to Vauxhall or Victoria and the Victoria line from there. Now here comes the interesting part. Consider the following: Overground to Clapham High Street -> OSI to Clapham North -> Northern Line to Stockwell -> Victoria Line The fare system being what it is, this should be a TfL-LU zones 1-2 fare (2.90/2.40) - but that doesn't show up in the fare finder. So what happens when you travel from Clapham Junction to Highbury & Islington with an OSI between Clapham High Street and Clapham North? Does it charge correctly? Higher? Lower? It's a mystery. Now for something even crazier: Overground or Southern to West Brompton -> District Line to Victoria -> Victoria Line Again, going purely by the fare system, this should be a TfL-LU zones 1-2 fare, same as above. But here's the thing: you enter and exit Clapham Junction and Highbury & Islington through the exact same ticket barriers as if you were using the Overground loop. There are no ticket barriers between the trains to tell the system you _aren't_ using it. Thus you should be able to travel _through zone 1_, shaving massive amounts off your travel time, at the exact same TfL-LU zone 2 fare. Can someone please confirm if this is true? It's a major exploit if so. And one they can't really fix without putting up barriers between tube lines _for the sole purpose_ of fixing it.
This why I love the Madrid underground. 1 fare, 1 journey. With exemptions obviously. But as a tourist it makes it so easy to understand what I will be charged.
Stratford - West Brompton says on the website that it is 2,80 off peak, while you actually pay 1,50, even if you do travel through zone 1 using the tube, instead of the Overground Route it suggests (by Overground it is 1,50)
I've analysed all ~1.9 million fares from TFL. The best absolute split ticket saving is £6.50. Gatwick Balham = £16.50. Break at Crystal Palace and it's £10. The best saving by percentage is 55% off. Wandsworth Road Waltham Cross = £9.90. Break at Enfield Lock and it's £4.50.
Oyster Card Peak hour: National Rail from Brockley->London Bridge, Jubilee to Bond Street - £5 vs Overground -> Canada Water, Jubilee to Bond Street - £3.30. Off peak £4 vs £2.80. Same journey time. Same zones. This is pay as you go. Travel card will be the same fare.
+Geofftech This is made even worse if you have a railcard attached to your Oyster (or a student Oyster etc.) as Southern don't apply a discount but London Overground do so always worth going via Canada Water, especially off-peak.
Avoiding zone 1 is only allowed on routes where TFL allows it. Heathrow to Catford (zone 3) off peak is £5.5 (TFL doesn't allow for it). Whereas Heathrow to nearby Denmark Hill is £1.5 as it's allowed route. While having travel card zone 2-3 I see many of them. Sheperds Bush, Clapham, Denmark Hill, Catford is treated as journey zone 2-3. If you miss train in Denmark Hill and go via Lewisham (still zone 2) you get charged as going via zone 1.. Avoiding zone 1 is so messy :)
The fare from Ware to Oxford Circus is £7.70 off peak. However the NR fare to Tottenham Hale is £3.50 and the LU fare from there to Oxford Circus ( zone 1) is £2.80 a total of £6.30. So you need to break the OSI at Tottenham Hale. You can do this by tapping in, out, and then in again as recommended by you.
I remember the video for the inclusion of the routes to and from Liverpool Street, that the tube map was getting too congested. when the remaining suburban routes into the Capital get added to the TFL network, I wonder if they (TFL) will decide to omit the Overground from the map in future because of the congestion caused by having too many routes on one page, would probably make more sense to have an all Overground map on one side of the pocket map and the tube map itself on the other. What do you think?
A good one is Watford Junction to Gatwick avoiding Z1 by the Southern West London Line is £14.70 peak but by breaking your journey at East Croydon it is £5.20 + £5.30 = £10.50 . Similar savings for off peak and Z1 but I haven't researched that fully!
An even more bizarre anomaly lies at the other end of Venner Road - from Victoria to Penge East is £4.50 off peak, half a mile away at Sydenham, the journey costs £2.80. A saving of £1.70 for what is a 10 minute walk at best.
I did find a few things strange with my journeys in the past. A journey between Plaistow (Zone 3) to Seven Sisters (Zone 3) can be taken in two ways in which I will mostly be traveling in Zone 2 areas. Journey 1, Plaistow to West Ham, then Jubileee to Stratford, get the Overground to Highbury &Islington the train to Seven Sisters, the cost wasnt too much. How ever, a quicker and more simpler journey would be Plaistow to Whitechapel, then Overground to Highbury & Islington, the train to Seven Sisters. That did cost me more as the Overground traveled through a zone 1 station, so it caught me out. Annoying. This was a few years back so I couldn't remember the exact price but both journeys were during peak times. TfL Rail between Stratford and Romford would cost £2.40 off peak. Zone 3 (at the time) to zone 6. Now get the District Line or c2c from West Ham to Upminster, off peak too, it would cost £1.50. It's still going from zone 3 - zone 6 and distance wise between the two start and finish, West Ham to Upminster has a more longer length. I did try to find out the reason for the price difference even though you are doing the same zone to zone distance but it wasn't clear. I try to stay on top of all of my journey payments but when you make new trips, the Oyster prices can catch you out. The link you had in the video has helped in the past and how I found out about the different charges. Also I love all the content the Londonist produces. Thank you so much.
That’s why we have so-called “Verkehrsverbünde” (transport networks) in Germany. Inside the Verbund, there is one fare for all methods of travel, be it Deutsche Bahn, other train operators, buses, trams etc. I thought TfL was the same but then again, when on holiday, I didn’t care if a journey was one pound more or less, I spent way more on admissions, food, drinks etc, but I think that’s what they also account for.
My hotel in May will be right next to hounslow central station (zone 4). Apparently, there is a £10.10 daily cap, so if I make multiple stops in zones 1-4, that sounds alright.
This is not so much an anomaly but a situation where people often lose money. On the trams where you have to enter a station to board. When you enter a station a maximum fare is taken from your card until you touch out where it is returned minus your fare. But on the trams you don't touch out. You do, however need to touch in twice. Touching a second time returns the max fare minus your £1.50.
Another anomaly is going from Finsbury Park to Enfield. If you go to Enfield chase direct it charges 1.50 (p.s. these are child rates). But take the Victoria line to seven sisters and change to the Enfield town service and get charged 75p (again this is a child rate)
if you go from forest hill to Gatwick (changing at East Croydon) it's 9.20/5.80 but if you exit at East Croydon it's 8/5.20. and you get a similar situation from you in penge
Here is one for you, for Euston to Watford Junction. Two services go between there: London Midland and London Overground. London Overground's evening peak starts at 16:00, but London Midland's doesn't start until 16:49. Use an oyster card to go from Euston after 16:00 you WILL be charged a peak fair, despite the train you are riding on being declared off peak by the people who run it. Infuriating.
+Charles Parry that isn't quite true though. There is no such thing as an off peak train. There is such a thing as off peak tickets. And as far as I can see, there is no off peak ticket even on paper available for Watford Junction to Euston. So your only option is the anytime ticket for £9.80. Even during the peak, Oyster is still cheaper than that!
I see what you are saying, but If I travel on a London Midland service off peak it costs £3.30, but despite London Midland saying that that service is off peak you are charged £8.00+. So an off peak fare does exist, they just won't sell you a paper ticket for it. EDIT: Should add, I have a young person's railcard, which is valid off peak but not during peak journeys. Hence the mammoth price difference and added annoyance.
Perhaps the simplest way to find all the discrepancies would be to make the use of someone who knows how to write the software and use a computer to work out all of the possibilities/comparisons.
wow! the train network here in Sydney is so cheap in comparison. I will take an hour train journey to work and it cost $3.40, that's like £1.70. I forgot how expensive public transport was back home! also on our opal cards, similar to the oyster after 8 paid trips all travel whether it be train, bus, ferry or tram is free. usually after weds/thurs I get free travel
Are some of these because you're avoiding busy areas? Eg if you go from one side of London to the opposite, it assumes you've traveled through the central city. But if you go around, and purposely tag out somewhere there, you get a cheaper, non central fare?
If you break up the journey at Willesden Junction, to continue to Watford Junction The journey is longer For most people, they won't break the journey It is only applicable for those who are travelling on leisure without time constraints
A man travels from Lewisham to Epping: Lewisham DLR to Canary Wharf DLR is £1.80. Canary Wharf Underground to Epping Underground is £2.10 Total £3.90 OR Lewisham DLR to Epping can equal £2.10, because if you walk the connection between Canary Wharf DLR to Canary Wharf Underground within 8 mins you're charged one journey not two seperate ones.
+Geofftech Why not do the simple system of a fixed fare monthly or annually for Oyster? Pay 160£ for example between zone 1 & 3, unlimited travel from 1st day to last day of the month? Like the Paris system and their Navigo. Could make life on TfL much easier..
I'll be arriving at the Heathrow airport so i know i can buy it there. I know there is a 5-pound refundable deposit in order to get the card. Do i return the card to a machine and it automatically gives me the money back or do i personally go to an employee at some station? Also, when i do buy the card, i just choose the amount i want to add to it, NOT THE ZONES i'm gonna be traveling, OR DO I? I'll be using the card within zones 1 and 2 everyday except one day where i NEED to go to Watford junction station for the Harry Potter studio tour. Can i use it? :) thanks!
Is it cheaper to use my Oyster with 16-25 Railcard set on it from Broxbourne to Waterloo or cheaper to buy a return ticket from Broxbourne to Tottenham Hale and then Oyster card from TH to Waterloo and then obviously back agin to TH later on? I can't find what my cap is for my 16-25 being on my Oyster,
There's no attendant on the gateline to let you back in? Even if they didn't want to do OSI for every passenger, they should be accommodating to you because of your need to use the lifts.
its the same with the mainlines. where it can be cheaper to split your ticket or buy tickets for further up the line from where you want to go. what is it with the UK and its train fare logic?
'yay i love my job as a guy that stares at ticket barriers for the entire day- wait why is there someone turning around and touching in and out like 3 times?'
5:15 No i like southeastern ill allways choose it over the ugly slow 378 overground trains no matter how much it costs no offence to you geoff its my opinion
Years ago I would often travel by train from Peterborough to Sheffield. The day return fare then was £32. However a day return from Peterborough to Nottingham was £8 and a day return from Nottingham to Sheffield was also £8. Half price train travel for splitting tickets. Also sometimes it was cheaper to get a ticket further than you needed. A return from London to Ipswich was £16, however a return to Norwich was £12........ Work that out.
Many years too, I wanted to travel from Portsmouth Harbour to Gatwick one way; ticket guy said, 'No, you want a day return'... Turns out it was cheaper than a single and cheaper still with a railcard... But that was in the days of British Rail!
G'day Londonist or Geoff. I travel back to the UK a fair bit. I was in London last July for 3 days...I was told to get an Oyster card - I went around a fair bit but I was having to endlessly top it up. Is there a better way to use the card on the tube/buses for out of town folk? Keep up the good work.
+Brian Carson you can register it online, and get the card to auto-topup, so you don't have to! or you may find that if you have a contactless credit/debit card, then just use that instead. if Australian contactless cards work here in the UK, that is! only one way to find out ...
we just visited from Canada and my girlfriends contactless cc worked fine but none of my 3 did which was frustrating. as mentioned, assuming your card works in the system it is by far the easiest way to go.
@@Londonistvids I agree on the contactless card, we used both travel card and visa brand contactless when travelling and it worked fine including daily caps. Some TFL buses are Oyster only, I recall trying to board the historic Routemaster in December 2018 only to be told it was Oyster Only.
Stockholm is easier. There are no zones at all. You can ride how far or short you want in 75 minutes for 31 SEK then you have to pay another 31 SEK to ride 75 minutes more. So much easier. And no tapping out either is needed.
Wow fares in London are super expensive. You should take a look at Beijing's metro. Even though it's crowded, a single fare costs between 3-9 Yuan (~40p to £1.00) while in London it's around 3-9 pounds (the exchange rate is 1 : 8.8)
Life's far easier in Bristol. I have a £450 ticket for unlimited bus travel with the main operator for one year (365 days). For other people, a day rider ticket works fine.
So pleased that I have free travel with my 60+ Oyster Card, National Rail weekdays after 09:30, where special fares apply are free on TfL Rail between Brentwood and Shenfield, and on the London Overground between Watford Hugh St and the Junction. Have all the tubes, buses, trams, Overground and DLR for free at all times + free eye test and free prescriptions, just like a pensioner, when I tape the card on the reader on a bus, comes up as a Freedom Pass .
My friend told me that the Heathrow Express doesn't accept Oyster Cards, but they should, because this is a Pure London Train service so even the Heathrow Express should accept Oyster Cards.
+Mister J My bad, should have been BAA, British Airports Authority, although I think it's now called Heathrow Airport Holdings. They own the infrastructure between the airport and the junction with the mainline near Hayes & Harlington.
I seen an oddity kinda two weeks ago and TWO TFL staff wouldn't admit it at first, a zone 1 underground payg Oyster cap is £6.50 and a single off peak Victoria to Gatwick Airport NOT on express is £8.00 so the maximum I should of been charged was £14.50 NOT the £19.00 it charged me. I had made 5 or 6 zone 1 tube journeys during the day so would of had that capped at £6.50 then be charged £8.00 for my airport journey. Some rather unhelpful and bored looking TFL supervisor & customer assistant at Victoria was adamant that their rules document for the new Oyster Gatwick system says £19.00 is the max fare so its right, didn't really listen to what I was explaining anyways I emailed TFL and they instantly said I was right and were very helpful and refunded the difference - so if anyone has used Oyster for Gatwick journeys since launch CHECK IT
I think there is another video that basically says that if you use contactless instead of Oyster, it would cap it the way you thought it should have done, but Oyster does not.
I wouldn't admit any money-saving ideas to someone who says 'would of' instead of 'would have'. Consider any extra you have to pay as a fair fine for your poor English.
+Mariusz Pawlukowiec complicated reasons involving the Department for Transport and the negotiations that happened when TfL took over franchies, but yes - the Overground out of Liverpool Street to Chingford/Cheshunt costs more than other Overground lines in London. Hopefully in the future it will all settle down and cost the same across all the lines...
agreed... it is way too confusing to people who are visiting rather than live there. although using your credit card to tap in and out for all your journeys, the system does all the math for you and applies daily and weekly maximums so after a certain point you ride for free.
Whenever I go to Chicago, a day pass is $10, and that’s good for 24 hours, not just a calendar day, and includes all stations. For instance, one day, I started at ohare, rode the blue line all the way state/lake, or whatever the corresponding blue line station is, and connected to the red line to go to Roosevelt, because I was going to the field museum that day. After that, I had to meet a friend at midway, and then we went all the way to Addison to see the cubs game that night, and all the way back to,ohare for me to my hotel, so,I could fly out the next day. With that much travel, the $10 was worth it.
when tfl took over east anglia from shenfield to liverpool in prep for crossrail they changed the fair to match oyster fairs. with the exception of shenfield. so im guessing theyd do the same with the line you mentionned
Another a man taps in at A and out at B via DLR, then in at C and out at D via Southeastern and is charged two fares. But, if he just taps in A and out at D, omitting B and C, the fare is cheaper.
Thanks for letting me know. I am excited to see that line refurbished. Personally I think it should have been brought by TFL for the London Overground earlier
Ive just started going from Highbury & Islington to West Croydon, but am going H&I to stratford on the Overground, touching the pink reader at Stratford then Jubilee Line to Canada Water to re-pick up the Overground from H&I.. This way I don't go through Shoreditch High Street (which should just be made zone 2 so that line is all out of central london)... I think Im saving money, but if someone told me I can just go from H&I To west croydon and it would cost the same as all the faff i have to do to save a few quid....!
I actually would like to find out how much is a day travelcard zones 1 and 2. The machines in the stations don't sell that option anymore and I found a lot of discrepancies in price from newsagents. This is very infuriating and a bad service from TFL. I feel sorry for tourists who I am sure pay much more than they should.
Paper day travelcards are only available for zones 1-9, 1-6 and 1-4 (Anytime only). Oyster or Contactless caps are much more flexible and a lot cheaper.
Thank God for Toronto , Ontario , Canada brand new air conditioned trains with leg room, all handicap accessible . Travel the entire system all for $3.25 =1.82 Pound Sterling.
I do that journey from Clapham to Watford and always have to wait at Willesden, now I know to tap out when I get there instead of standing around for ten minutes waiting for my train!! This video is great.
+Charlotte O'Leary Are you a PAYG Oyster/Contactless user Charlotte? Let us know how you get on! It should be cheaper, yes!
+Londonist Ltd Yes I am PAYG and I love little hacks like this!
Charlotte O'Leary I use the same Route
Charlotte O'Leary 1
i live in watford
Here in Athens, I pay €30 per month for unlimited rides on the metro, train, trams and buses.
farfett_il-lejl that’s sick but if your not travelling in the month than there’s no point
farfett_il-lejl that’s the problem. London is VERY expensive, if you somehow don’t get caught out by high property prices, you definitely will with transport. Driving around London is not worth the headaches of bus lanes, car bans, low emission zones... it’s so easy to get caught out and fined. Public transport really is the only practical way around London. Everyone I know who lives in and around London only have cars for the soul purpose of when they leave the city. €30 a month is far too good value for London.
In Edinburgh it's about £55 per month for the same. Kind of crazy, but often does work out to be cheaper than paying a fare each journey.
Its 21 euros in Sofia and its super convenient. Even less if you are a student or a pensioner
On Madrid Just 200€ At year or 20€ per month.They are two different options for under 26 years
Although you're supposed to pay for the zones you go through, a lovely little hack is that if you want to go from Highbury and Islington to West Brompton, you can go through zone 1 on the underground (~30 mins as opposed to ~45 on the overground) and still pay a Zone 2 only fare, because the system can't tell which route you took!
After hours of searching - I've got an oyster anomaly! On the new Gatwick extension, Upminster - Gatwick costs £16.20. However, Upminster - Coulsdon South costs £7.70 and Coulsdon South - Gatwick costs £5.20.
This means that, if you touch out at Coulsdon South, your journey is £3.30 cheaper! That's enough for a cup of coffee and a bit left over!
It's similar at Stansted - you can't use Oyster but with paper tickets instead of buying Liv St to Stansted Airport you can save money by buying two singles, Liv St to Stansted Mountfitchet and then Stansted Mountfitchet to Stansted Airport. And as long as the train stops there, you can stay on the same train.
No coffee today 🤣
@@steved8193just checked, and splitting your journey to stansted makes it around £3 more expensive, i checked splitting at tottenham hale, bishops stortford and stansted airport
but geoff made a video about the gatwick one, but he split the jourjey at east croydon
The problem isn't the Oyster Card, it's the pricing. It's the same when you buy normal tickets in advance, the Oyster Card is just hiding this. It get's even more confusing when you use a boat at the Thames. Even so you own a travelcard for the needed zones you just get a discount instead of riding for free, the same goes with the cablecar. In Hamburg Germany for example all ferry services are fully integrated in the normal fares.An other "anomaly" that has to do with the travelcards is the pricing for buses and trams. Regardless witch zones are included in your travelcard it covers all busses in all zones. Similar thing goes on with the trams. If your travelcard includes one of the tram zones you could use the whole tram network. This could be useful if you live relatively near a zone boarder and you could take a bus to a station that's in the next zone and therefor save the money for adding another zone. This could be almost 500 Pound when stepping back from zone 8 to zone 7 for an annual pass.
Good luck getting the ferry operators to join the TfL fares system!
My local transit company did away with zones years ago, and you know... I am a transit nerd. I’d love to pay less than everyone around me for successfully navigating a complicated system, but also our transit system is so simple you only have to tap on, not off.
I don't even live in London yet this is fascinating to me. Great video Geoff!
Bus fare capping can cause issues when also using the tube off peak but the bus at peak time. It's sometimes cheaper to pay with one oyster card for your early peak bus journeys and pay with a different card to travel on the tubes later (off peak) as your cap will be at the lower off peak price. This was true a few years ago, dunno if tfl fixed that yet.
Thanks Mike and Geoff. I saved £1 and lost 469346 hours by walking
Here in Milan if you get the subscription as a student you pay 22 euro a month (19.40£) and you can travel LIMITLESS at any time every day of the month on buses, underground, trams and urban trains in an area that would be like saying up to zone 4 in London i would say. So yes, transport in the UK it's a hell of a lot expensive
As a normal person (not student) the monthly subscription fare it's like 30/32 euros (28£)
+luca milano - because in The UK, the transport system is privatised. Trains companies and Buses operators are private companies. In London, we have two companies - Arriva and Deutsche Bahn who own and operate buses across London and outside the capital.
I've discovered what might be an interesting anomaly - can someone test this please? (Not a London resident myself.) I discovered this when investigating the new(-ish) Overground circle, and ended up checking the fares Clapham Junction -> Highbury & Islington. Here's what fare finder says:
Default fare: 1.70/1.50 (TfL-LU zone 2) - obviously this is for using the Overground circle in either direction (west making more sense)
Alternatives: 4.30/3.70 (NR1-T zones 1-2) if changing to the tube at [huge list of stations] - this is obviously taking Southern or SWT to Vauxhall or Victoria and the Victoria line from there.
Now here comes the interesting part.
Consider the following:
Overground to Clapham High Street -> OSI to Clapham North -> Northern Line to Stockwell -> Victoria Line
The fare system being what it is, this should be a TfL-LU zones 1-2 fare (2.90/2.40) - but that doesn't show up in the fare finder. So what happens when you travel from Clapham Junction to Highbury & Islington with an OSI between Clapham High Street and Clapham North? Does it charge correctly? Higher? Lower? It's a mystery.
Now for something even crazier:
Overground or Southern to West Brompton -> District Line to Victoria -> Victoria Line
Again, going purely by the fare system, this should be a TfL-LU zones 1-2 fare, same as above. But here's the thing: you enter and exit Clapham Junction and Highbury & Islington through the exact same ticket barriers as if you were using the Overground loop. There are no ticket barriers between the trains to tell the system you _aren't_ using it. Thus you should be able to travel _through zone 1_, shaving massive amounts off your travel time, at the exact same TfL-LU zone 2 fare.
Can someone please confirm if this is true? It's a major exploit if so. And one they can't really fix without putting up barriers between tube lines _for the sole purpose_ of fixing it.
This why I love the Madrid underground. 1 fare, 1 journey. With exemptions obviously. But as a tourist it makes it so easy to understand what I will be charged.
This is how the Tehran metro is and I prefer it. London's tube ticket pricing is far too confusing.
Stratford - West Brompton says on the website that it is 2,80 off peak, while you actually pay 1,50, even if you do travel through zone 1 using the tube, instead of the Overground Route it suggests (by Overground it is 1,50)
enjoy Geoff's channel posts . I live in western Canada.London's my fave city and the tube is part of the experience ..every time i visit.
I've analysed all ~1.9 million fares from TFL. The best absolute split ticket saving is £6.50. Gatwick Balham = £16.50. Break at Crystal Palace and it's £10. The best saving by percentage is 55% off. Wandsworth Road Waltham Cross = £9.90. Break at Enfield Lock and it's £4.50.
awesome!
Oyster Card Peak hour: National Rail from Brockley->London Bridge, Jubilee to Bond Street - £5 vs Overground -> Canada Water, Jubilee to Bond Street - £3.30. Off peak £4 vs £2.80.
Same journey time. Same zones. This is pay as you go. Travel card will be the same fare.
+Geofftech This is made even worse if you have a railcard attached to your Oyster (or a student Oyster etc.) as Southern don't apply a discount but London Overground do so always worth going via Canada Water, especially off-peak.
Avoiding zone 1 is only allowed on routes where TFL allows it. Heathrow to Catford (zone 3) off peak is £5.5 (TFL doesn't allow for it). Whereas Heathrow to nearby Denmark Hill is £1.5 as it's allowed route.
While having travel card zone 2-3 I see many of them. Sheperds Bush, Clapham, Denmark Hill, Catford is treated as journey zone 2-3. If you miss train in Denmark Hill and go via Lewisham (still zone 2) you get charged as going via zone 1..
Avoiding zone 1 is so messy :)
You are wearing just a T-shirt in January??? I felt cold just watching that!
+Geofftech What do you wear when it 23C? ...and when if it reaches 33C?
***** haha ...some groupies waving big fans sounds great!
+Geofftech you kidding me? 13c not cold?
thihal123 ...I guess it could be classed as mild; for January!
+thihal123 Not at all, maybe not T-shirt weeather, though. I'd wear a hoodie as well.
The fare from Ware to Oxford Circus is £7.70 off peak. However the NR fare to Tottenham Hale is £3.50 and the LU fare from there to Oxford Circus ( zone 1) is £2.80 a total of £6.30. So you need to break the OSI at Tottenham Hale. You can do this by tapping in, out, and then in again as recommended by you.
I remember the video for the inclusion of the routes to and from Liverpool Street, that the tube map was getting too congested. when the remaining suburban routes into the Capital get added to the TFL network, I wonder if they (TFL) will decide to omit the Overground from the map in future because of the congestion caused by having too many routes on one page, would probably make more sense to have an all Overground map on one side of the pocket map and the tube map itself on the other.
What do you think?
3:30 Note that special fares apply regarding journeys to and from Watford Junction, it isn't in a zone!
A good one is Watford Junction to Gatwick avoiding Z1 by the Southern West London Line is £14.70 peak but by breaking your journey at East Croydon it is £5.20 + £5.30 = £10.50 . Similar savings for off peak and Z1 but I haven't researched that fully!
An even more bizarre anomaly lies at the other end of Venner Road - from Victoria to Penge East is £4.50 off peak, half a mile away at Sydenham, the journey costs £2.80. A saving of £1.70 for what is a 10 minute walk at best.
I did find a few things strange with my journeys in the past. A journey between Plaistow (Zone 3) to Seven Sisters (Zone 3) can be taken in two ways in which I will mostly be traveling in Zone 2 areas. Journey 1, Plaistow to West Ham, then Jubileee to Stratford, get the Overground to Highbury &Islington the train to Seven Sisters, the cost wasnt too much. How ever, a quicker and more simpler journey would be Plaistow to Whitechapel, then Overground to Highbury & Islington, the train to Seven Sisters. That did cost me more as the Overground traveled through a zone 1 station, so it caught me out. Annoying. This was a few years back so I couldn't remember the exact price but both journeys were during peak times.
TfL Rail between Stratford and Romford would cost £2.40 off peak. Zone 3 (at the time) to zone 6. Now get the District Line or c2c from West Ham to Upminster, off peak too, it would cost £1.50. It's still going from zone 3 - zone 6 and distance wise between the two start and finish, West Ham to Upminster has a more longer length. I did try to find out the reason for the price difference even though you are doing the same zone to zone distance but it wasn't clear.
I try to stay on top of all of my journey payments but when you make new trips, the Oyster prices can catch you out. The link you had in the video has helped in the past and how I found out about the different charges.
Also I love all the content the Londonist produces. Thank you so much.
+Noel Parson I also fail to mention that the monthly travelcard for buses and between zone 3 and 6 is over £120.
NR lines out of Liverpool Street (Greater Anglia and London Overground, including Romford - Upminster) use a different fare scale that costs more.
OH MY GOD!!!! That D in 0:03 is the exact same bullet as the one in the NYC SUBWAY!!!
+Geofftech No, and the orange color as well!!!
That’s why we have so-called “Verkehrsverbünde” (transport networks) in Germany. Inside the Verbund, there is one fare for all methods of travel, be it Deutsche Bahn, other train operators, buses, trams etc. I thought TfL was the same but then again, when on holiday, I didn’t care if a journey was one pound more or less, I spent way more on admissions, food, drinks etc, but I think that’s what they also account for.
If you tap out then tap back in at every station would it be cheaper?
My hotel in May will be right next to hounslow central station (zone 4). Apparently, there is a £10.10 daily cap, so if I make multiple stops in zones 1-4, that sounds alright.
Good content this is stuff us Londoners actually need to know 👍🏼
How did you get that statement on the oyster machine's?
This is not so much an anomaly but a situation where people often lose money. On the trams where you have to enter a station to board. When you enter a station a maximum fare is taken from your card until you touch out where it is returned minus your fare. But on the trams you don't touch out. You do, however need to touch in twice. Touching a second time returns the max fare minus your £1.50.
Another anomaly is going from Finsbury Park to Enfield. If you go to Enfield chase direct it charges 1.50 (p.s. these are child rates). But take the Victoria line to seven sisters and change to the Enfield town service and get charged 75p (again this is a child rate)
How does the system know which route you took? I thought one only taps in and out at the beginning and the end of the journey, respectively?
if you go from forest hill to Gatwick (changing at East Croydon) it's 9.20/5.80 but if you exit at East Croydon it's 8/5.20. and you get a similar situation from you in penge
Awesome!! I'm always traveling from Broxbourne to London...know what I'll be doing from now on 😉👍
"London overground empire"
it's getting too big, I scoffed when TFL got AGA lines leaving lime street!
I think you mean Liverpool Street. Lime Street is, erm, in Liverpool. (No, not at all confusing.)
+Richard Graham oh yeah! sorry! I knew that, it's simple once you get your head around it, sorry for my fucking up!
No worries, I guessed it was a simple mistake. Hence my attempt to inject humour. (Which never works.)
Here is one for you, for Euston to Watford Junction. Two services go between there: London Midland and London Overground. London Overground's evening peak starts at 16:00, but London Midland's doesn't start until 16:49. Use an oyster card to go from Euston after 16:00 you WILL be charged a peak fair, despite the train you are riding on being declared off peak by the people who run it. Infuriating.
+Charles Parry that isn't quite true though. There is no such thing as an off peak train. There is such a thing as off peak tickets. And as far as I can see, there is no off peak ticket even on paper available for Watford Junction to Euston. So your only option is the anytime ticket for £9.80. Even during the peak, Oyster is still cheaper than that!
I see what you are saying, but If I travel on a London Midland service off peak it costs £3.30, but despite London Midland saying that that service is off peak you are charged £8.00+. So an off peak fare does exist, they just won't sell you a paper ticket for it.
EDIT: Should add, I have a young person's railcard, which is valid off peak but not during peak journeys. Hence the mammoth price difference and added annoyance.
That's the thing, we don't have the zone system, we get charged based on where we start and end our journey, transfer is a 30 minute window here.
Perhaps the simplest way to find all the discrepancies would be to make the use of someone who knows how to write the software and use a computer to work out all of the possibilities/comparisons.
Or just make a spreadsheet by hand.
wow! the train network here in Sydney is so cheap in comparison. I will take an hour train journey to work and it cost $3.40, that's like £1.70. I forgot how expensive public transport was back home! also on our opal cards, similar to the oyster after 8 paid trips all travel whether it be train, bus, ferry or tram is free. usually after weds/thurs I get free travel
Are some of these because you're avoiding busy areas?
Eg if you go from one side of London to the opposite, it assumes you've traveled through the central city. But if you go around, and purposely tag out somewhere there, you get a cheaper, non central fare?
Geoff just posted a video about this exactly
If you break up the journey at Willesden Junction, to continue to Watford Junction
The journey is longer
For most people, they won't break the journey
It is only applicable for those who are travelling on leisure without time constraints
TfL's bid for the London suburban portion of Southeastern's area ended up getting rejected last December, eleven months after this video was posted.
Blackfriars to Gatwick (peak) - it costs £14.70 using oyster/contactless and only £10.70 if you buy a paper ticket
A man travels from Lewisham to Epping: Lewisham DLR to Canary Wharf DLR is £1.80. Canary Wharf Underground to Epping Underground is £2.10 Total £3.90 OR Lewisham DLR to Epping can equal £2.10, because if you walk the connection between Canary Wharf DLR to Canary Wharf Underground within 8 mins you're charged one journey not two seperate ones.
+Geofftech Why not do the simple system of a fixed fare monthly or annually for Oyster? Pay 160£ for example between zone 1 & 3, unlimited travel from 1st day to last day of the month? Like the Paris system and their Navigo. Could make life on TfL much easier..
I'll be arriving at the Heathrow airport so i know i can buy it there. I know there is a 5-pound refundable deposit in order to get the card. Do i return the card to a machine and it automatically gives me the money back or do i personally go to an employee at some station?
Also, when i do buy the card, i just choose the amount i want to add to it, NOT THE ZONES i'm gonna be traveling, OR DO I? I'll be using the card within zones 1 and 2 everyday except one day where i NEED to go to Watford junction station for the Harry Potter studio tour.
Can i use it? :) thanks!
Is it cheaper to use my Oyster with 16-25 Railcard set on it from Broxbourne to Waterloo or cheaper to buy a return ticket from Broxbourne to Tottenham Hale and then Oyster card from TH to Waterloo and then obviously back agin to TH later on? I can't find what my cap is for my 16-25 being on my Oyster,
What do you use to edit and animate
London Bridge tube should be an OSI between the two ticket hall because as I need to use lifts I have to change lines via street and I'm charged twice
There's no attendant on the gateline to let you back in? Even if they didn't want to do OSI for every passenger, they should be accommodating to you because of your need to use the lifts.
its the same with the mainlines. where it can be cheaper to split your ticket or buy tickets for further up the line from where you want to go. what is it with the UK and its train fare logic?
'yay i love my job as a guy that stares at ticket barriers for the entire day- wait why is there someone turning around and touching in and out like 3 times?'
London Overground: Empire Of TFL
5:15 No i like southeastern ill allways choose it over the ugly slow 378 overground trains no matter how much it costs no offence to you geoff its my opinion
Does this affect the cap? As looking at using pay as you go with contactless and national rail services too.
No, the cap will be applied whenever it is reached.
+Mike Whitaker that's good then, as looking at using my new contactless card around zone 1-5, using trains, underground and the buses
Years ago I would often travel by train from Peterborough to Sheffield. The day return fare then was £32. However a day return from Peterborough to Nottingham was £8 and a day return from Nottingham to Sheffield was also £8. Half price train travel for splitting tickets. Also sometimes it was cheaper to get a ticket further than you needed. A return from London to Ipswich was £16, however a return to Norwich was £12........ Work that out.
Check out www.moneysavingexpert.com/split-cheap-train-tickets/
Many years too, I wanted to travel from Portsmouth Harbour to Gatwick one way; ticket guy said, 'No, you want a day return'... Turns out it was cheaper than a single and cheaper still with a railcard... But that was in the days of British Rail!
Why have I been watching these since 3am?
I go on a train from Woking to London Waterloo and jubilee line
and DLR
1:23 Basic tutorial on how to do a backstitch in sewing! Up, down, up in the same place, down in the same place.
Thank you! Very interesting.
thanks Mr Mike
G'day Londonist or Geoff. I travel back to the UK a fair bit. I was in London last July for 3 days...I was told to get an Oyster card - I went around a fair bit but I was having to endlessly top it up. Is there a better way to use the card on the tube/buses for out of town folk? Keep up the good work.
+Brian Carson you can register it online, and get the card to auto-topup, so you don't have to! or you may find that if you have a contactless credit/debit card, then just use that instead. if Australian contactless cards work here in the UK, that is! only one way to find out ...
we just visited from Canada and my girlfriends contactless cc worked fine but none of my 3 did which was frustrating. as mentioned, assuming your card works in the system it is by far the easiest way to go.
@@Londonistvids I agree on the contactless card, we used both travel card and visa brand contactless when travelling and it worked fine including daily caps. Some TFL buses are Oyster only, I recall trying to board the historic Routemaster in December 2018 only to be told it was Oyster Only.
Why do I think things will get even more complicated with Oyster fares when Crossrail opens?
Stockholm is easier. There are no zones at all. You can ride how far or short you want in 75 minutes for 31 SEK then you have to pay another 31 SEK to ride 75 minutes more. So much easier. And no tapping out either is needed.
There are more people on my flat than in stockholm. Of course there aren't any zones and easier to set up
leonefoscolo Well, there were zones but SL (public transportation company) removed them to make it easier so your argument isn’t really working.
Not cheap for short rides
井吹 So better for ever1’s health! (By walking instead)
Jeez those prices always! And that's not even taking into account a pound is more than a Euro.
Wow fares in London are super expensive. You should take a look at Beijing's metro. Even though it's crowded, a single fare costs between 3-9 Yuan (~40p to £1.00) while in London it's around 3-9 pounds (the exchange rate is 1 : 8.8)
And 90% of the stations are less than 10 years old, so everything is fancy and new
You have to consider COL aswell rather than just exchange.
1 british pund in India can buy you more than one british pound in the UK
Moritz L Whats that as a percentage of the average wage?
Life's far easier in Bristol. I have a £450 ticket for unlimited bus travel with the main operator for one year (365 days). For other people, a day rider ticket works fine.
Geoff is local to Penge?
Call me old fashioned by I still buy a paper travel card, then I can travel around London car free all day!
In The Netherlands we have a similar system nationwide that doesn't use zones anymore, just the amount of stations, works way better.
iett's brt works the same way
wow. far too complicated. how is anyone not from London supposed to figure it out. maybe your not, and it's designed to rip off tourists
To be fair, many Londoners will only know about it if it's their daily commute or if they are a transport geek (no bad thing).
this isn’t for tourists, i believe that it’s targeted toward commuters
So pleased that I have free travel with my 60+ Oyster Card, National Rail weekdays after 09:30, where special fares apply are free on TfL Rail between Brentwood and Shenfield, and on the London Overground between Watford Hugh St and the Junction. Have all the tubes, buses, trams, Overground and DLR for free at all times + free eye test and free prescriptions, just like a pensioner, when I tape the card on the reader on a bus, comes up as a Freedom Pass .
Why no captions?
My friend told me that the Heathrow Express doesn't accept Oyster Cards, but they should, because this is a Pure London Train service so even the Heathrow Express should accept Oyster Cards.
I wholeheartedly agree, but you have to persuade BAE of that. It may get sorted out once Crossrail takes over Heathrow Connect.
Who are the BAE?
+Mister J My bad, should have been BAA, British Airports Authority, although I think it's now called Heathrow Airport Holdings. They own the infrastructure between the airport and the junction with the mainline near Hayes & Harlington.
Thanks for telling me!
I seen an oddity kinda two weeks ago and TWO TFL staff wouldn't admit it at first, a zone 1 underground payg Oyster cap is £6.50 and a single off peak Victoria to Gatwick Airport NOT on express is £8.00 so the maximum I should of been charged was £14.50 NOT the £19.00 it charged me. I had made 5 or 6 zone 1 tube journeys during the day so would of had that capped at £6.50 then be charged £8.00 for my airport journey. Some rather unhelpful and bored looking TFL supervisor & customer assistant at Victoria was adamant that their rules document for the new Oyster Gatwick system says £19.00 is the max fare so its right, didn't really listen to what I was explaining anyways I emailed TFL and they instantly said I was right and were very helpful and refunded the difference - so if anyone has used Oyster for Gatwick journeys since launch CHECK IT
I think there is another video that basically says that if you use contactless instead of Oyster, it would cap it the way you thought it should have done, but Oyster does not.
I wouldn't admit any money-saving ideas to someone who says 'would of' instead of 'would have'. Consider any extra you have to pay as a fair fine for your poor English.
how is the overground charging more while is it on the tfl network?
+Mariusz Pawlukowiec complicated reasons involving the Department for Transport and the negotiations that happened when TfL took over franchies, but yes - the Overground out of Liverpool Street to Chingford/Cheshunt costs more than other Overground lines in London. Hopefully in the future it will all settle down and cost the same across all the lines...
Love my Staff Oyster !!
I thought Ealing Broadway was local to you hahahaha
Same here
I thought Sudbury Town in West London was Geoff's locality......
Penge is in South-East London
Apparently, someone commented on his name all 270 stations video that he used to live at ealing common, but now he’s at penge
Here in Chicago you pay one flat fare unless you're coming inbound from O'Hare. This seems unnecessary and confusing.
agreed... it is way too confusing to people who are visiting rather than live there. although using your credit card to tap in and out for all your journeys, the system does all the math for you and applies daily and weekly maximums so after a certain point you ride for free.
Whenever I go to Chicago, a day pass is $10, and that’s good for 24 hours, not just a calendar day, and includes all stations. For instance, one day, I started at ohare, rode the blue line all the way state/lake, or whatever the corresponding blue line station is, and connected to the red line to go to Roosevelt, because I was going to the field museum that day. After that, I had to meet a friend at midway, and then we went all the way to Addison to see the cubs game that night, and all the way back to,ohare for me to my hotel, so,I could fly out the next day. With that much travel, the $10 was worth it.
It is £0.70 of peak using oyster from Romford to Upminster
if detected by TfL inspectors, splitting by zero stop trip will cause you be charged maximum fare.
not that I want them to catch people but you'd think their system computers would be able to detect and invalidate such trips.
when tfl took over east anglia from shenfield to liverpool in prep for crossrail they changed the fair to match oyster fairs. with the exception of shenfield. so im guessing theyd do the same with the line you mentionned
fare
An oyster fair sounds a rather exciting event!
Another a man taps in at A and out at B via DLR, then in at C and out at D via Southeastern and is charged two fares. But, if he just taps in A and out at D, omitting B and C, the fare is cheaper.
romford to stratford its 1.90 while off peak. tfl rail has slightly a higher fare than the undergroud
where do you buy londonist shirts
you should try this thing called google! londonist.com/tags/t-shirts
why tfl rail chargers more than the tube?
hello mate I just wanted to ask u does oyster allows you to use a passport&address to apply for it ??
+Mohmmed Ahmead Have a look at: tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/visiting-london/visitor-oyster-card
You can just buy one from a machine when you get here. Give it back in at the end and they will refund you the cost.
better yet, just use your credit card to tap in and out from rides and the system will apply all the daily and weekly maximum discounts automatically.
*Proud Son*
Why haven't TFL got the suburban routes on the ECML?
Thanks for letting me know. I am excited to see that line refurbished. Personally I think it should have been brought by TFL for the London Overground earlier
Hello, how do I get to go King Cross station from Heathrow airport? The cheapest way possible.
Use the Piccadilly Line, but travel Off-Peak (not between 06.30-09.30 or 16:00-19:00)
How come a day ticket from Richmond cost 12 pound theses days
Why would you even take the overground to Watford? Take the fast London Midlands from Euston. Both trains are starting from Euston anyways
because in our example, you change and get on the train at Willesden Junction
people who don't follow mainstream society and waste time on fb insta etc become genius's like oyster rail.be that guy
Can you do a video how to get a oyster
this is a nightmare!
When im in london i travel with my wife & our balances always end up different
How much older are you than your wife or vica versa? 😂
Ive just started going from Highbury & Islington to West Croydon, but am going H&I to stratford on the Overground, touching the pink reader at Stratford then Jubilee Line to Canada Water to re-pick up the Overground from H&I.. This way I don't go through Shoreditch High Street (which should just be made zone 2 so that line is all out of central london)... I think Im saving money, but if someone told me I can just go from H&I To west croydon and it would cost the same as all the faff i have to do to save a few quid....!
I actually would like to find out how much is a day travelcard zones 1 and 2. The machines in the stations don't sell that option anymore and I found a lot of discrepancies in price from newsagents. This is very infuriating and a bad service from TFL. I feel sorry for tourists who I am sure pay much more than they should.
Paper day travelcards are only available for zones 1-9, 1-6 and 1-4 (Anytime only). Oyster or Contactless caps are much more flexible and a lot cheaper.
+The Original Lundun Geeza There may well have been a zones 1-3 version in the past, but there isn't now.
+The Original Lundun Geeza TfL are trying to get rid of paper tickets full stop. They really want everyone using contactless or Oyster.
+The Original Lundun Geeza no.
Cheapest and easiest way to get from liverpool street to West Eailing????
Thank God for Toronto , Ontario , Canada brand new air conditioned trains with leg room, all handicap accessible . Travel the entire system all for $3.25 =1.82 Pound Sterling.