Also worth adding that City Thameslink is where northbound trains switch to AC, which is another potential failure point for Thameslink services and something I've experienced several times on the route.
@@Garner84 Used to be - they moved the change to City as if for what ever reason a Northbound fails to change over it can be put in the sidings just north of the station
@@Garner84 Southbound trains still switch to DC at Farringdon, but northbound trains now go AC from City Thameslink. The line is actually dual-voltage between the two stations in both directions, so I suspect it’s a case of having a “backup”. If your train has a fault and can’t change its power at the first station, continue to the next one and try again. If it fails again, only then should you take the train out of service.
@@realjacobfosterI quite like Thameslink. I live on the Brighton mainline and it’s very convenient to be able to get trains direct to central London, Luton and Cambridge. The seats aren’t very comfy but they feel roomy and safer than trains with separated carriages. I guess I’m used to the delays 😂
In combination with the Elizabeth Line, Thameslink makes getting to Heathrow so much less hassle, especially if you’ve got suitcases. No faffing about, a lift between the platforms at Farringdon is SO much better than having to get the tube 😊
Munich is currently building a second tunnel for the S-Bahn system, basically for the same reason, because all the trains have to use the existing tunnel which is at the limit of its capacity. And yes, it's expensive. Very expensive.
And it hasn't been that long ago that they finish the refurb and the closures for that were a disaster. Still better than having to change into the team from Ostbahnhof to Hauptbahnhof, as it used to be before.
Another example, in Paris RER B and D share the tunnel between Châtelet-Les Halles and Gare du Nord which is also the source of capacity bottlenecks and horrendous delays from time to time.
@@class87srule RER A goes to Disneyland. That one is super busy too! Paris has five cross-city rail lines (RER A, B, C, D, E), London so far only has two (Elizabeth + Thameslink).
Tokyo Station has entered the chat… A city of 35m people with many, many termini and major interchanges… but one station simply called ‘Tokyo’. Still, a very pretty station it is, too!
@@fridovanorden8930 awkwardly though City Thameslink makes perfect geographical sense - it's right in the centre of The City and on the Thameslink line
@@quintuscrinis I'm not doubting Jago, but the map showed City Thameslink to the left of Holborn Viaduct. As the latter is not in the City, my assumption would be the same for this station.
I travel into and out of City Thameslink for work 3 times a week. The longer distance trains (Brighton/Horsham Bedford/Cambridge/Peterborough) running a few minutes late you have to play guess who will get to Blackfriars first and therefore into City first - The 8 car stoppers (St Albans/Luton) or the 12 car long distance. The board can be jumping around all the time. And don't get me started on late running Peterborough trains (now see what you did!). They turf us off at Finsbury Park (having stopped all stations in the core) and then run straight to Peterborough. Tell you to get the next train which is often cancelled so it can become an hour or more wait. Another problem from Finsbury Park is that they have to swap drivers for the core so if the core driver is not there yet (their train from the core is delayed) it then delays the train at FP. Thameslink in general just cannot cope with delays anywhere on their network, it is not just at City Thameslink.
Eh as someone who can just about remember getting slam door diesels which terminated at a dark dingy decrepit stinking pigeon infested St Pancras, the Thameslink of today still blows my mind. Yeah, I get that it sometimes goes wrong but my word it's an improvement.
@Benjamin.Jamin. Having commuted from Bedpan days up to the 700s, I know what you mean. However, Kings Cross Thameslink was also an awful, dismal and cramped station.
The number of strange quirks and differences is huge. One of many that spring to mind is that the current monarch can't enter The City without an invitation.
When I was a driver at Ashford (Kent) we walked down through St Paul's Thameslink to Smithfield sidings, before it was finished, to 'Learn the road'. The plan was to run slam door trains through from East Kent, the ones that ran to Holborn Viaduct. It never happened as LFB wouldn't allow them due to evacuation concerns so only sliding door trains were permitted.
Odd you mention 'slam door' trains. My assumption was they have been history in western Europe for 20-30 years. The other day I saw a Flixtrain leaving Berlin Hauptbahnhof. Rather alarmingly I saw a passenger closing the door as the train was leaving!
@@rogink what the OP is talking about is carriages with doors in each compartment. What you're talking about is typical European carriages with manually operated doors, which are still being widely used across Europe.
@@z00h Really? I don't think we've had commuter trains with separate compartments since the 70s. The usual meaning for 'slam doors' for the type that passengers open and close from and to the platform.
I didn't think it was evacuation concerns but the fact that slam door trains were illegal, if that is the right word, on underground lines. Metropolitan Line loco hauled slam door coaches and the Watford Line trains, were they T stock, were allowed as I think they pre-dated the law change making all underground trains have sliding doors, so they allowed to continue to run. As Thames Link was a new line so to speak, that loop hole wasn't allowed.
@@rogink I remember travelling on commuter trains with separate compartments and slam doors (in S London) in the early 80s. And slam door (but not separate compartments) up until the late 80s. Maybe even later, I don't recall. And, the 125s had slam doors that you had to lean out of the window to open more recently than that.
I've never used that station, but I go past it regularly on my commute. A bit spooky how it's been frozen in time exactly as it was on the day it was closed in 2007, with big ominous DO NOT ALIGHT HERE signs along the platform.
@@ricequackers There was a plan to sell the station building above but it seems no-one wanted it. It would be difficult to build anything large there with the railway lines underneath.
And as a station it is awful too, catch a train late evening (it shuts at about 11pm weekdays) and it is soleless, drab and boring. Never arrive too early.
I recall reading an industry paper on the fancy new Automatic Train Operation through the Thameslink core, and how it meant they could squeeze a ridiculous number of trains on to this pair of tracks. The engineer happily compared it to the RER A through Paris, bringing many branches together. However, there are some huge differences. RER A doesn’t have anywhere near as many branches as Thameslink, some of those branches are only served by RER A trains, and where they share, it’s only with a single other operator, SNCF (RER A being an RATP operation). Its geographical reach is far shorter than Thameslink, and doesn’t go much beyond the greater Paris area, whereas Bedford to Brighton is closer to an InterCity length of route. Its core stations are further apart and it’s paralleled through the centre by Metro Ligne 1, which deals with much of the local traffic. RER A has permissive signalling that allows drivers to pass block markers at caution (a common feature of French signalling for what we would call “Automatic” signals), so you can actually have a train arriving on a platform before the other has fully departed, while on Thameslink core, a block marker is a mandatory STOP. RER A has its problems, but most are related to age of the infrastructure. A better comparison would be RER B and RER D, who share a core, and have atrocious delays.
The trouble with City Thameslink is that it is operationally a terminus, but physically is a through station without any proper connection to the Underground Network. The crazy interlining of service patterns just makes it worse.
As someone who dealt with BR South Eastern lettters of complaint etc. in the 60s/70s the idea of re-opening the Snow Hill line regularly popped up (along with some really crackpot ideas) but the answer was always, we don't want to cause/be caused delays by trains north of the river. Presumabley someone said, never mind, just do it.
@@batman51 with the original concept, it was just one route, to Bedford, so much easier to manage. Plus St Pancras could be used if there was disruption
Do remember, though, that a decent chunk of the passengers at City Thameslink are only going to Farringdon or St Pancras or London Bridge, so they're basically using the service as if it were a Metro line and they don't care if all the trains are late as long as they're running every few minutes. I'm often there when every train on the board is very late, but as they're trying to recover the service there's a steady flow of trains through the station and that's fine for my purposes.
I've been dealing with tough troubles in real life with one of my relatives being admitted to the hospital since last wednesday, but watching the latest Jago video always puts a smile on my face. :)
Another interesting fact about this line is that it used to over Ludgate Hill ( the road towards St Paul's ) and now dives underneath hence the very steep gradient between Blackfriars and City Thameslink. Some amazing construction completed within very tight constraints, physical and timewise.
Hate it. It may be good for the views from the platform but it blocks more of the view from the riverbanks than the old two bridges did. And looks worse.
One solution I feel would work for City Thameslink is to give it an extra platform (that would be between both running tracks). The station would be rebuilt with two island platforms with 3 tracks. The two outer tracks would be your regular platforms while one in the centre can be used as a buffer to soak an extra train while the main platform clears. This would massively improve station capacity as a station is usually what limits the capacity of a pair of tracks.
6:44 - That is one of the biggest understatements I've heard for the core 😁 Little fun bit of trivia. The inclines either end are two of the steepest in the country for a mainline railway. The north end is said to be the steepest, but I've not found anywhere to officially back that up other than "what everyone says". Another fun bit because of this... when coming to a stand on the hill, particularly heading down to Blackfriars, it's a bit of a struggle to get moving at times. In fact if we take trains in under half power, the signal box has to be informed so the route can be cleared all the way through to the next station to avoid the train getting stuck on the incline.. again. Anything that can happen, will happen, and there will always be some degree of chaos. As oddly beautiful as it can be at times. That's what I've learnt xD
Sometime ago, when the Thameslink project was called "Thameslink 2000", my company did some consultancy work on the capacity of Farringdon and London Bridge. One bit of the briefing report I remember was the proposal that the trains would be automatically operated because, with trains running as close as 90 seconds apart, human drivers would "flinch" (i.e. brake too early) and the service would be delayed as a result.
That's interesting to read as an ex-Jubilee Line driver that used to manually drive on that line (before the Jubilee became ATO) and there were multiple points where we were under 90 seconds behind the train in front with no flinching involved - we were used to following tail lights all day.
By automatically operated you mean the automation determines the stopping and acceleration. The driver still closes the doors and can stop the train in an emergency.
@@barrieshepherd7694 The Class 700s have cameras watching all the doors. I don't see drivers being removed from the checking that the doors are clear before the train moves off.
2:33 glad to see some sort of footage of this famous holborn station, when i go by on the TL i always try to look for the clues on where the station was but its not as clear as id like and ive never seen much footage on youtube either
the view today from roughly the same location/direction as that photo: www.google.com/maps/@51.5154099,-0.1033058,3a,75y,22.36h,87.23t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1scyrTe4OdidEskQAprtjrXg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D2.765811463648845%26panoid%3DcyrTe4OdidEskQAprtjrXg%26yaw%3D22.362304433463027!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyMC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
While more and more of the old Network Southeast livery disappears over time, it still has a remarkable amount intact. I kind of wish they'd keep it all.
Yes, its a case where if you don't have trains running, no cancellations or delays can happen there in the first place - and a 100% on time record with 0 trains out of 0 being delayed on a typical sunday.
@Cowman9791 I was meaning that the implication is that Farringdon (on the same line with all the same trains) would have the same issue, unless the Sunday service was better when Farringdon has the chance to come out better by still being open and off-setting some of the damage that makes Ciry Thameslink the worst.
@@alanclarke4646 Trains still run on Sundays, and even stop there to change power supplies, but the station is closed, and the doors do not open. There may be less trains on Sundays, I don’t know the full Thameslink timetable.
Any engineering works on the core section usually happen at weekends, which can sometimes come as a nasty surprise to passengers who were expecting to use it!
The location of the station effectively underground is mentioned, as is the consequentially steep gradient between it and Blackfriars, but not the fact that the original line crossed over Ludgate Hill on a prominent bridge. Although this bridge was considered by some to be an eyesore and something of a bottleneck, it was a City icon (as shown in many old prints and photos) and is missed by many. Watching an LNER J50 trundle across with a freight to or from Hither Green was a memorable sight.
The city question leaves most stumped London itself is not actually a city in the official sense of having been granted a Royal Charter but rather an amalgamation of London boroughs (sometimes called London regions) with the entire area designated as Greater London But within Greater London lies 2 official cites - the City of London and the City of Westminster, no other London borough holds city status It's often a pub quiz question - which are England's largest and smallest cities by population? To which the answers would be Birmingham for largest and the City of London for smallest
We have the same problem in Manchester. The through lines at Piccadilly station go north along the Castlefield Corridor, which also has only two tracks. It is a continual congestion point and causes many delays. It was intended to increase it to four tracks and build extra through platforms at Piccadilly when the Ordsall Chord was built, a new link between Victoria and Piccadilly Stations. This never happened, and so the Chord is only used at one third capacity. So trains continue to queue to travel along the Castlefield Corridor.
We dream of having that sort of rail investment in central Manchester to ease chronic congestion, but London gobbles up any funds available all the time. We would love to have a City Thameslink in Manchester - so stop moaning!!
@@davidsutton7276 Of course! Just irritated at the lavish provision of public transport in the capital. You simply don’t see this disparity in other European countries between the capital & large provincial cities. Rant over!!
When the Thameslink line opened it crossed Ludgate Hill on a bridge and you got a brief view of St. Paul's Cathedral. Then the line was moved underground, so that people coming out of St. Paul's Cathedral would not get a brief view of each Thameslink train.
I wondered why they didnt call it "Snow Hill" since its virtually on the site of the original Snow Hill station. I'd accept Ludgate Hill because it has entrances to/from said hill. Even "The City" might not be so bad but "City Thameslink" is halfway between being a vague destination and an advertisement. The name is irritating. As is frequently the case these days, we find recycled infrastructure being pushed beyond its capacity.
Jago error. It is NOT. Ludgate Hill station was between Ludgate and Blackfriars. City Thameslink replaces StPauls TL AND Holborn Viaduct. St Pauls OSI is a trek, better to change at Farringdon to use the Lizzy for most, or BlackFriars for Bank. Snow Hill station was renamed Holborn Viaduct (Low Level). The GNR goods ramp entrance is still there at street level and the platform is before the sidings, it is the new London Museum site.
@@kbtred51 Its on the road called Ludgate Hill, which I think is what Jago was referring to. I think you could probably make a case for it actually being redundant as a station given the close proximity of the new Blackfriars but I suppose they were trying to keep the commuters that used the former Holborn Viaduct happy.
5:19 that's a very interesting part of london. There is a circle that goes under some of the buildings which traces the outline of the old roman gladiatorial ring.
19:23 Hi Jago, I used to work very close to there and do remember when Holborn Viaduct was on the cusp of being closed down, and remember all the works that were going on, causing much chaos around Ludgate Circus.
Interesting video! Thameslink and The Elizabeth Line are London's equivalent of the Paris RER. Both routes have proven extremely useful and well-used. Maybe in the distant future, when the government purse strings are loosened, Crossrail 2 will be added to these through-London routes.
Jago's Ludgate Hill! As long as we all use that name from now on they will have to rename it won't they? And you could re-rename it Snow Hill each year for the one day in the winter when it snows in London, and attract tourists from around the world for the occasion.
Fun fact - although never built, St Pauls Thameslink was built with a corridor leading to the site of Ludgate Hill tube station. It is known by the station staff as the "LUL corridor"
It's very nice to finally understand the rhyme and reason behind delays and cancellations! I live in Zone 4 along the Thameslink service to Stevenage and it's the only train in a reasonable walking distance as the tubestops around me are 30ish minutes walk away. It's great for getting to Finsbury Park quickly but I've always wondered why there are quite so many cancellations and early terminations on the line. It's been better recently, but any upset to the wider TFL system (like the strikes we had earlier in the year/last year) caused massive issues. Stopped using the Thameslink trains for a few months because it was less reliable than the busses in rush hour!
There is a double cross-over at the southern end. If a double cross-over was to be put-in just before Farringdon, because the City T-Link platforms are long enough to take 16 carriages, it would be possible to change trains on each line, (by a split block in the centres) Trains to the southern destinations could then be turned around. Brighton trains would then have 12 coach trains to Bedford, keeping through services, and vis versa, and all the rest running with 8 coach sets.
Its rather clear that a 2nd Thameslink Programme is needed, one that would upgrade the core from 2-Track to 4 Track and add additional dedicated tracks on the ECML, MML, Brighton Main Line & various other lines, all reserved for Thameslink. Sure it would cost an absolute fortune, but it would be cheaper than doing it later down the line...
The 'Small C City', as you describe it, is misleading. It is a county and region, comprising two 'cities': The City of London,the 'square mile' and the City of Westminster adjoining it, at Temple Bar. The London County was created in 1889, before which areas were identified by their county, such as 'Westminster, Middlesex'. Hope this helps.
City Thameslink is so much better now than it used to be. When London Bridge Station was rebuilt Thameslink got its own dedicated track through London Bridge. I worked in the building above the station and commuted home through London Bridge but it was always quicker for me to walk to Cannon St or even the mile to London Bridge rather than endure the two stop journey from City Thameslink.
I assume the Central Line runs right underneath this Station. I wonder if there have ever been discussions to add a stop and make it another official interchange station. The CL interchanges with every other North/south line except Thameslink, so this would seem a logical step?
As someone who lives in the area I never use the station, opting to walk straight past and use Blackfriars which is always open. Operation at City is too limited would be better to shut it and Farringdon is often closed when it shouldn't be. Would be good if the rebuild of Blackfriars had provided better connectivity with the area; the downside being the busy road everyone has to get across.
The lines Thameslink operates on outside the core are in fact mostly run by the same company under different names. Southern and Great Northern are both part of the same franchise as Thameslink.
....and because they don't employ enough drivers they rely on rest day working which, when it doesn't happen leads to cancellations, especially at weekends. Thus adding to the unreliability stats for, inter alia, City Thameslink.
I'd say Manchester Oxford Road or Deansgate are in that same boat for delays, alongside Piccadilly P13/14. Two track railway with multiple operators all trying to squeeze into that one section with knock on effects which can be caused by anything wrong in Edinburgh, Holyhead or Norwich (and anywhere in between).
@03:52 Which is why I find Canary Wharf DLR, Canary Wharf Jubilee Line and Canary Wharf Elizabeth Line SO INFURIATING! Name them three different things and have the OSIs but there are NOT THE SAME STATION!!!!!!!! PLEASE DO THIS KHAN!
I'd love a City vs city video! It's a fascinating place and its history (especially its relations to the rest of London and to the Crown) is particularly hard to find!
The Thameslink brand name may well be the brain child of Network South East, but the idea of reopening Snow Hill Tunnel and running a cross London service through it belongs to the Greater London Council. The GLC also had the brilliant idea of building a huge interchange station at West Hampstead, linking the Chiltern, Midland & North London lines, together with the Met & Jubilee lines. This scheme was scuppered by Thatcher who hated the GLC even more than she hated BR. Perhaps this might be a good subject for a future video?
Thanks for the reminder about the many GLC plans, and agree it is good idea for a future video. There was an article about them in Modern Railways in the 1980s. The one I remember related to the South London Line. They pointed out a problem was that it ran through but didn't stop at the most important place on the line (Brixton). So they would have added a platform on the SLL viaduct over the existing station, although it would have meant singling the track there.
As a tourist I traveled on the Tube and decided to change and Farringdon and exit at City Thameslink. I was charged £7 for like 3 stops despite being within Zone 1. Never again.
Absolutely agree that Ludgate Hill would have been a better name, but probably spooked by the entrance near the viaduct. Effectively it is one station from a rail point of view, but two stations from the street. Something that is also true of some Lizzy Line stations with their long platforms.
No station could ever be worse than the train station in my hometown of Billingham in the North East of England. It's an absolute abomination, and the old station there (which was demolished decades before I was born) looked so much nicer too!
I travel to City Thameslink from the Cambridge line. 4 journeys this week - 3 had delays. Also learned recently that they can do bi-directional running on the opposite platform (I got to the station at the same time as the paramedics hoofing it down to the emergency on my platform).
My suggestion as a non Londoner, to increase capacity in the Thameslink core would be to extend the northern city line to Cannon Street Station. Either create a Cannon Street lower level Station, or more optimal build a new station like Blackfrires across the entire River Thames. Looking at a Topological map, it should be possible to but a ramp as steep as from Blackfrires to City Thameslink between the existing bridge and the Cannon Street (Street). Optionally, you could build a Cannon Street lower level and do a submerged tunnel (so very shallow)to the southern banks of the Thames and than rise to the viaduct to London Bridge Station as well as to the Southeastern Main Line with another connecting viaduct to Elefant and Castle (this would definitely require demolish of existing buildings). If you feel exceptionally fancy you could add a wye in the tunnel to connect Fenchurch Street Station with both Moorgate and Cannon Street Station. A possible intermediate station could be Bank. If underground it could connect to both Bank and Cannon St, making Bank, Monument even more complicated as a Bank, Monument, Cannon Street complex. The District and Circle line platforms almost certainly would have to be rebuild below the new second core.
You can't extend the Northern City Line - there is too much in the way - the Metropolitan Line in front, the Bank of England above, the Northern Line below. Likewise extending beyond Cannon Street could only be done by demolishing the Manskion House and the Bank of England.
It’s one of my favourite stations. It’s near Barts Hospital where I need to go twice a year routine check ups. It’s also near some nice churches and , should I ever come to afford to, I’d like to move to that area. Holborn Viaduct-Ludgate Hill etc . I often go there, just to go there .
I do think that Thameslink should have stuck to serving the Brighton line in the south (plus the Sutton-Wimbledon loop). The problems caused for passengers by delays are exacerbated by the wretched half-hourly services which are the bugbear of south London's rail services in general: better to have fewer destinations each served more frequently. That's why the tube is so successful - if services are frequent, no one minds changing trains to get to the individual station you want.
I still do not see the reason for the Cambridge/Peterborough services being all pushed through the core (even though it benefits me). I much preferred the service into Kings Cross and just as easy to walk to St Pancras. But I think they wanted to reduce congestion and free up slots at Kings Cross for LNER etc. All that has happened is the congestion moves to the core and if the ECML is blocked it can easily back up into the core even though there are only 6 ECML routed trains through the core per hour.
Good video. One thing to mention, the way the concourse at City Thameslink was designed, allowed for a future extension of the Jubilee Line, to provide interchange. That was if the line had been extended beyond Charing Cross. The provision could still be used, if a proposed westward extension of the DLR, beyond Bank, to Charing Cross former Jubilee Line platforms, ever gets built. And I agree, Ludgate Hill would've been a much better name. After all, up here in Fife, Dunfermline Town station was renamed Dunfermline City, so it can be done!
I agree about the awful name. Any of those offered work. Even 'City' on its own as well as Ludgate Hill, or even closeby, Fleet St or Old Bailey or as the Viaduct is actually closeby from one entrance...
Another commenter already mentioned Munich's second tunnel, but last year they also started a new timetable in the one tunnel that exists. The Munich S-Bahn had the same problems as Thameslink, and it was improved by adding flexibility to the departure before entering the tunnel. Each train now has a 2-3 min long window to depart and travel through the tunnel. Now a train can depart "early" if the following train is late - for the passengers, a train travelling according to plan will enter the tunnel a few minutes late, but leave it on time.
Somehow, Philadelphia did a better job at making their suburban routes thru-run under the city with a quad-tracked tunnel. If only SEPTA had more money to run frequent service
Hi Jacob I found your documentary video so amazing and insightful, as a huge lover of the London Underground, trains and railways I always learn something new and amazing in your incredible and well explained videos , thank you for your amazing content
The design and ambience of CIty Thameslink is lovely but Jago is right, services are very unpredictable if you want to get beyond St Pancras. Very frustrating!
Used to use this every day when I worked in London, every day it used to be problematic and being that I used to use southeastern as well, it was a double whammy! Every morning and evening was checking live running and working out where I needed to make changes to get in on time or get home at a reasonable hour because trains I used did not stop at every station. So frustrating to get to the station to find that every train was cancelled or delayed or terminated early. it was like a running battle with the train companies. Even now with the work journeys I have to do once every 2 months invariably trains are delayed or cancelled so for those people using it every day......
For a long long time (on my early trips to London), I had no idea about Thameslink and didn't get what City Thameslink was doing in the city. But I have used the line loads of times since then, especially for Gatwick. I am glad it exists!
Even though the following is a blessing in disguise due to the absence of a Piccadilly (see GNP&BR 1903/1905 proposals), Fleet/Jubilee or DLR stop at nearby Ludgate Circus prior to the Elizabeth line at Farringdon, they should have looked at resitting the Central Line stop at either St Paul's or Chancery Lane to City Thameslink just south of Snow Hill (Holborn Viaduct Low Level).
I remember me father working on the London Bridge timings of Thameslinks and the inherent pathing problems that abounded as trying to insert 4 trains per hour into a rush hour block to block scenario was terrible and all it took was for a train at New Cross to bugger up and it was red lights all up and down and this fed back into Thameslink services and one stopped train could cripple everything because there simply does not exist extra pathing through the bottleneck of London Bridge. One of the small saving graces was they pathed Orpington to Charing X/Cannon St services to call at Lewisham and they stopped the through Bromley North to Charing X services which gave them a tiny extra window to play with, things improved with the doubling of the St John's flydown and the Bermondsey flyunder with the extra space created when the HS1 services took over some of the heavy lifting to the Kent services. They chose me old man because he was working the "widowmaker" panel at London Bridge plats 1-6 and he was familiar with the Loughborough Junc workings and by some dint of magic he did make it all work no doubt cursed by many a driver but BR gave him a nice bonus for pulling the turnip out their trousers so to speak.
"It was the nationalised British Rail which cut the direct service. The capacity issue is not a figment of Network Rail's imagination but a reason why such link is very difficult especially since rail use has increased by 50% since privatisation. Bromley Council lobbied the Mayor for the Docklands Light Railway to be extended from Lewisham to create a link to the East End. Transport for London (TfL) produced an £800 million plan for a new line via Catford which has now been rejected as not providing good value for money. Bromley has proposed that the London Overground line which terminates at New Cross be extended via a flyover at Grove Park to Bromley North. This is estimated at £250m. This would provide a wide range of transport connections including Crossrail, the District Line, the Jubilee Line etc. it would still cause capacity problems but might be accommodated by alterations to other services post 2018." www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/11501577.residents-back-campaign-for-bromley-north-trains-to-run-to-central-london-once-more - From the comments of the 2014 article.
Hello Jago, that was a very congested tale (every two minutes!). City Thameslink is a definite candidate for some ‘widened lines’ - oh if only it were possible. Best wishes from a bit of Oxfordshire now completely devoid of any lines.
It is a 6 minute walk (or a 2 minute cycle) between Blackfriars and City Thameslink via the A201 so it will only take longer to get between if one is elderly and/or has problems walikng (these people would be the people more likely to miss the train for Luton if a new train for it restarts at City Thameslink). The McDonalds on Ludgate Hill is the closest McDonalds for both stations and the fast food place is very close to St Paul's Cathedral.
Always a fan of Holborn Viaduct and also the old Blackfriars with its three terminus platforms. Not particularly sad to hear that the shiny new replacement for HV is a bit of a turkey.
I used to use Holborn Viaduct and remember catching the old slam door trains when there was just 1 platform left. My main memory is getting caught without a ticket though. I also often used the old Blackfriars, which I remember fondly and now miss.
Ohh, I knew that was familiar! London fur meets used to happen at the bar right next to it. I tried using it once, and was told that Thameslink only worked on weekdays.
I was wondering when I'd see furries here! (There's also at least one fox sneaking around.) The station was served on Saturdays in the latter few years of furmeets in the area. I used City Thameslink a few times myself. PS @philroberts7238 A furmeet is a gathering of cartoon animal fans, some of whom wear elaborate animal costumes
I was wondering when I'd see furries here! (There's also at least one fox sneaking around.) The station was served on Saturdays in the latter few years of furmeets in the area. I used City Thameslink a few times myself. PS @philroberts7328 A furmeet is a gathering of cartoon animal fans, some of whom wear elaborate animal costumes
Ahh, my station on my way home, that or a very short walk to Blackfriars if I want to guarantee a seat to New Barnet. Quick question, is that picture on 01:22 the now disused platforms still clearly visible on the track between City Thameslink & Farringdon? Were they the original Holborn Viaduct platforms?
In fire riser terminology a "dry riser" is one that is dry when not in use and is supplied with water (or foam mixture) by the fire brigade, while a "wet riser" is one that has permanent water supply. I would assume that "dry falling fire main" is the equivilent of a dry riser for a location below street level. Not sure why it needs a manual air release valve though, maybe they were having trouble with air getting trapped in the system. Plans normally only tell you approximately where something is, so a sign telling you which panel to pull off if you need to access something is useful.
This has reminded me of something; back during the brief time I had to commute into London, despite City Thameslink being basically next door to where I was working, it was almost always quicker for me to get off at Blackfriars and walk there instead.
For fare purposes City Thameslink is a London terminus when coming from the South, but not when coming from the North! So a single ticket from Welwyn Garden City to kings cross ( london terminals ) is £14.50, but for City Thameslink you need a London Thameslink ticket at £15.50
Interesting point you make about City Thameslink and St Paul's stations being quite a distance apart from each other. I've always wondered why the Central line decided to call its new station Bethnal Green, despite it being quite far away from the former GER/LNER station of the same name. Maybe that could be the subject for a future video?
Recently I travelled from Sutton to Elstree. The train I was on was running on time as far as Blackfriars but from thereon was heavily delayed. This was on a Saturday morning.
Brilliant video sir, iirc ticket wise from South of the river City Thameslink counts as a London terminal, Farringdon and St Pancras have be to the named station.
Instead of stopping Sutton trains going north, they took out the Sevenoaks service instead. Now to get to CT or anywhere north (including the Elizabeth Line) from Bromley etc. you have to change at Blackfriars. This may be cross platform going north but can't be going south and crossing from platform 1 to 3 or 4 is a real slog.
Used to go to an event every three weeks back when it was based at the fleet place entrance to the station, always found it easier to just walk up from St Paul's, was often quicker then the interchange at Farringdon. I did go down into the station once, was odd to find it pretty much abandoned given its locatation in the centre of London next to one of the world's most well known attractions.
Working on Thameslink at a station just north of London I have noticed that sometimes we will have all the southbound trains (which haven't yet passed through the core) are arriving on time but all the northbound trains will be arriving a few minutes late due to getting held up in the core. It is just silly tbh.
For maximum capacity of a double track line, the stations need four tracks. In Zurich and Stockholm, this was done at the central station, but not along the rest of the core route. The consequences are obvious.
There are some fantastic ariel photos from the 1940's on the Historic England site (search for Historic England Ariel Photographs) and one from 1948 shows the old Blackfriars station, Holborn Viaduct Station and the goods lines into the tunnel. I used Holborn Viadust in the mid 1980's for a couple of years then never needed to use the line again until recently as I now work in Blackfriars so have the joys of Thameslink to Blackfriars or the Elizabeth Line to Farringdon. I remember that even then, Holborn Viaduct felt like it was on the verge of closure as it seemed to have very little train traffic.
It’s my go-to for pre-dawn runs to Gatwick, not least because it’s a small station, so you can be through the front doors and down onto the platform in 60 seconds or so. Plus, for the first couple of trains, the platforms are pretty empty, which is preferable if you’ve got hours of travel ahead of you. 👍
Its because it had nothing to do with me.
Uh oh
It's that man again
man like Charles
*ominous music starts playing*
YERKES!
Also worth adding that City Thameslink is where northbound trains switch to AC, which is another potential failure point for Thameslink services and something I've experienced several times on the route.
Is it, I thought they change at Farringdon?
@@Garner84 Used to be - they moved the change to City as if for what ever reason a Northbound fails to change over it can be put in the sidings just north of the station
@@Garner84 There's a driver placard to raise/lower the catenary at the ends of City Thameslink platforms
@@Garner84
Southbound trains still switch to DC at Farringdon, but northbound trains now go AC from City Thameslink.
The line is actually dual-voltage between the two stations in both directions, so I suspect it’s a case of having a “backup”. If your train has a fault and can’t change its power at the first station, continue to the next one and try again. If it fails again, only then should you take the train out of service.
@Garner84 a sign going south indicated 'PANT UP'. Never spotted a 'PANT DOWN- in the opposite direction.
Used City Thameslink for the first time today. Was pleased to find a video about how bad it is in my subscriptions as soon as I got home
Did you agree?
Can’t say it was the best, but pleased to report that everything was on time
Used st pancreas early this year quite decent service
@@realjacobfosterI quite like Thameslink. I live on the Brighton mainline and it’s very convenient to be able to get trains direct to central London, Luton and Cambridge. The seats aren’t very comfy but they feel roomy and safer than trains with separated carriages. I guess I’m used to the delays 😂
In combination with the Elizabeth Line, Thameslink makes getting to Heathrow so much less hassle, especially if you’ve got suitcases. No faffing about, a lift between the platforms at Farringdon is SO much better than having to get the tube 😊
Munich is currently building a second tunnel for the S-Bahn system, basically for the same reason, because all the trains have to use the existing tunnel which is at the limit of its capacity. And yes, it's expensive. Very expensive.
And it hasn't been that long ago that they finish the refurb and the closures for that were a disaster. Still better than having to change into the team from Ostbahnhof to Hauptbahnhof, as it used to be before.
*tram
Another example, in Paris RER B and D share the tunnel between Châtelet-Les Halles and Gare du Nord which is also the source of capacity bottlenecks and horrendous delays from time to time.
@@ijmadIs that the one that goes to Disneyland?
@@class87srule RER A goes to Disneyland. That one is super busy too! Paris has five cross-city rail lines (RER A, B, C, D, E), London so far only has two (Elizabeth + Thameslink).
Regarding the non-indicative name: Berlin's subway has a station called 'Stadtmitte' (City center). That's about as fuzzy as 'City Thameslink'
Tokyo Station has entered the chat…
A city of 35m people with many, many termini and major interchanges… but one station simply called ‘Tokyo’. Still, a very pretty station it is, too!
@@fridovanorden8930 awkwardly though City Thameslink makes perfect geographical sense - it's right in the centre of The City and on the Thameslink line
@@quintuscrinis I'm not doubting Jago, but the map showed City Thameslink to the left of Holborn Viaduct. As the latter is not in the City, my assumption would be the same for this station.
@rogink or maybe it isn't quite in The City. It is definitely the closest though and the one used by "City" workers hence being closed in Sunday.
Wien Mitte is even worse, it is far away from city at all, outside Ring.
I travel into and out of City Thameslink for work 3 times a week. The longer distance trains (Brighton/Horsham Bedford/Cambridge/Peterborough) running a few minutes late you have to play guess who will get to Blackfriars first and therefore into City first - The 8 car stoppers (St Albans/Luton) or the 12 car long distance. The board can be jumping around all the time.
And don't get me started on late running Peterborough trains (now see what you did!). They turf us off at Finsbury Park (having stopped all stations in the core) and then run straight to Peterborough. Tell you to get the next train which is often cancelled so it can become an hour or more wait.
Another problem from Finsbury Park is that they have to swap drivers for the core so if the core driver is not there yet (their train from the core is delayed) it then delays the train at FP.
Thameslink in general just cannot cope with delays anywhere on their network, it is not just at City Thameslink.
I'm very happy that I've only ever had to catch Cambridge and Peterborough trains as far as Finsbury Park!
Eh as someone who can just about remember getting slam door diesels which terminated at a dark dingy decrepit stinking pigeon infested St Pancras, the Thameslink of today still blows my mind.
Yeah, I get that it sometimes goes wrong but my word it's an improvement.
@Benjamin.Jamin. Having commuted from Bedpan days up to the 700s, I know what you mean. However, Kings Cross Thameslink was also an awful, dismal and cramped station.
Yes please to a video about the big C and little c! Thanks!
Somebody recently called me a big C. I am glad to find out he meant the financial centre.
@@tomq6491 As long as he didn't call you a merchant banker...
@@lordmuntague 😄
The number of strange quirks and differences is huge. One of many that spring to mind is that the current monarch can't enter The City without an invitation.
There is a great video by CGP Grey on the topic
When I was a driver at Ashford (Kent) we walked down through St Paul's Thameslink to Smithfield sidings, before it was finished, to 'Learn the road'. The plan was to run slam door trains through from East Kent, the ones that ran to Holborn Viaduct. It never happened as LFB wouldn't allow them due to evacuation concerns so only sliding door trains were permitted.
Odd you mention 'slam door' trains. My assumption was they have been history in western Europe for 20-30 years. The other day I saw a Flixtrain leaving Berlin Hauptbahnhof. Rather alarmingly I saw a passenger closing the door as the train was leaving!
@@rogink what the OP is talking about is carriages with doors in each compartment. What you're talking about is typical European carriages with manually operated doors, which are still being widely used across Europe.
@@z00h Really? I don't think we've had commuter trains with separate compartments since the 70s. The usual meaning for 'slam doors' for the type that passengers open and close from and to the platform.
I didn't think it was evacuation concerns but the fact that slam door trains were illegal, if that is the right word, on underground lines. Metropolitan Line loco hauled slam door coaches and the Watford Line trains, were they T stock, were allowed as I think they pre-dated the law change making all underground trains have sliding doors, so they allowed to continue to run. As Thames Link was a new line so to speak, that loop hole wasn't allowed.
@@rogink I remember travelling on commuter trains with separate compartments and slam doors (in S London) in the early 80s. And slam door (but not separate compartments) up until the late 80s. Maybe even later, I don't recall. And, the 125s had slam doors that you had to lean out of the window to open more recently than that.
My model railway I haven't built yet will be modelled on the Thameslink core, because I'm figuring the scenery will be easier.
Brilliant video thanks!
You could build it under the floorboards, with little viewing panels in each room.
Should do City Thameslink during 1959 as model .
@@phaasch genius thanks
@@lassepeterson2740 Haha - perfect!
Still can't be as bad as the unmissed King's Cross Thameslink, a horrid cramped, sometimes dangerously overcrowded hole
It's certainly missed by passengers who used to change onto the Tube there! 🤣
It's still available for emergency evacuation
That's a second world war war grave that was why they closed it
I've never used that station, but I go past it regularly on my commute. A bit spooky how it's been frozen in time exactly as it was on the day it was closed in 2007, with big ominous DO NOT ALIGHT HERE signs along the platform.
@@ricequackers There was a plan to sell the station building above but it seems no-one wanted it. It would be difficult to build anything large there with the railway lines underneath.
And as a station it is awful too, catch a train late evening (it shuts at about 11pm weekdays) and it is soleless, drab and boring. Never arrive too early.
Agreed. It always closes just as it's about to be fc**** useful
I recall reading an industry paper on the fancy new Automatic Train Operation through the Thameslink core, and how it meant they could squeeze a ridiculous number of trains on to this pair of tracks. The engineer happily compared it to the RER A through Paris, bringing many branches together.
However, there are some huge differences. RER A doesn’t have anywhere near as many branches as Thameslink, some of those branches are only served by RER A trains, and where they share, it’s only with a single other operator, SNCF (RER A being an RATP operation). Its geographical reach is far shorter than Thameslink, and doesn’t go much beyond the greater Paris area, whereas Bedford to Brighton is closer to an InterCity length of route. Its core stations are further apart and it’s paralleled through the centre by Metro Ligne 1, which deals with much of the local traffic. RER A has permissive signalling that allows drivers to pass block markers at caution (a common feature of French signalling for what we would call “Automatic” signals), so you can actually have a train arriving on a platform before the other has fully departed, while on Thameslink core, a block marker is a mandatory STOP. RER A has its problems, but most are related to age of the infrastructure.
A better comparison would be RER B and RER D, who share a core, and have atrocious delays.
The trouble with City Thameslink is that it is operationally a terminus, but physically is a through station without any proper connection to the Underground Network. The crazy interlining of service patterns just makes it worse.
If I'm not mistaken, it's adjacent to the Central line running tunnels.
As someone who dealt with BR South Eastern lettters of complaint etc. in the 60s/70s the idea of re-opening the Snow Hill line regularly popped up (along with some really crackpot ideas) but the answer was always, we don't want to cause/be caused delays by trains north of the river. Presumabley someone said, never mind, just do it.
He was called Ken Livingstone and/or his transport guru Dave Wetzel.
@@batman51 with the original concept, it was just one route, to Bedford, so much easier to manage. Plus St Pancras could be used if there was disruption
Do remember, though, that a decent chunk of the passengers at City Thameslink are only going to Farringdon or St Pancras or London Bridge, so they're basically using the service as if it were a Metro line and they don't care if all the trains are late as long as they're running every few minutes. I'm often there when every train on the board is very late, but as they're trying to recover the service there's a steady flow of trains through the station and that's fine for my purposes.
I've been dealing with tough troubles in real life with one of my relatives being admitted to the hospital since last wednesday, but watching the latest Jago video always puts a smile on my face. :)
I hope they will be ok :(
Let’s just say I don’t do well in these types of situations.
Another interesting fact about this line is that it used to over Ludgate Hill ( the road towards St Paul's ) and now dives underneath hence the very steep gradient between Blackfriars and City Thameslink. Some amazing construction completed within very tight constraints, physical and timewise.
The next station Blackfriars is the best station in London for me awesome views from the platforms over the Thames.
*previous station
@@stevegreen8262that very much depends where you're coming from. 😂
When you have to change across to another platform it is a nightmare though.
Hate it. It may be good for the views from the platform but it blocks more of the view from the riverbanks than the old two bridges did. And looks worse.
7:27 On the contrary, not being able to go to Luton is a good thing. Though for other stations on the line I accept your point.
Oh dear, another one on the bandwagon knocking Luton! Far worse places are available.
@@johnspurgeon9083 well, yes, but Thameslink doesn’t serve the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone or the Pacific Ocean Garbage Patch.
Peckham Rye 💀
@@E350tb They serve Croydon though
That sounds as if you suffer from Luton intolerance.
One solution I feel would work for City Thameslink is to give it an extra platform (that would be between both running tracks). The station would be rebuilt with two island platforms with 3 tracks. The two outer tracks would be your regular platforms while one in the centre can be used as a buffer to soak an extra train while the main platform clears. This would massively improve station capacity as a station is usually what limits the capacity of a pair of tracks.
6:44 - That is one of the biggest understatements I've heard for the core 😁 Little fun bit of trivia. The inclines either end are two of the steepest in the country for a mainline railway. The north end is said to be the steepest, but I've not found anywhere to officially back that up other than "what everyone says".
Another fun bit because of this... when coming to a stand on the hill, particularly heading down to Blackfriars, it's a bit of a struggle to get moving at times. In fact if we take trains in under half power, the signal box has to be informed so the route can be cleared all the way through to the next station to avoid the train getting stuck on the incline.. again.
Anything that can happen, will happen, and there will always be some degree of chaos. As oddly beautiful as it can be at times. That's what I've learnt xD
Crossing over Ludgate Hill then down into snow Hill was the steepest, now it's over Blackfriars and under the raised road bed on Ludgate Hill.
I thought the steepest incline was the Lickey incline near Birmingham
As you seem to know about these things... Any idea why they left the kink in the line through Farringdon? It seems odd.
3:38 "Obliterated 1990" is wild 💀
Sometime ago, when the Thameslink project was called "Thameslink 2000", my company did some consultancy work on the capacity of Farringdon and London Bridge. One bit of the briefing report I remember was the proposal that the trains would be automatically operated because, with trains running as close as 90 seconds apart, human drivers would "flinch" (i.e. brake too early) and the service would be delayed as a result.
That's interesting to read as an ex-Jubilee Line driver that used to manually drive on that line (before the Jubilee became ATO) and there were multiple points where we were under 90 seconds behind the train in front with no flinching involved - we were used to following tail lights all day.
Pretty sure they are running under ETCS / ATO from Kentish Town at least to Blackfriars and maybe beyond to Elephant & Castle.
By automatically operated you mean the automation determines the stopping and acceleration. The driver still closes the doors and can stop the train in an emergency.
@@hairyairey Yes - although the ATO can also - if agreed - operate the doors - the driver can always stop the train.
@@barrieshepherd7694 The Class 700s have cameras watching all the doors. I don't see drivers being removed from the checking that the doors are clear before the train moves off.
2:33 glad to see some sort of footage of this famous holborn station, when i go by on the TL i always try to look for the clues on where the station was but its not as clear as id like and ive never seen much footage on youtube either
the view today from roughly the same location/direction as that photo: www.google.com/maps/@51.5154099,-0.1033058,3a,75y,22.36h,87.23t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1scyrTe4OdidEskQAprtjrXg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D2.765811463648845%26panoid%3DcyrTe4OdidEskQAprtjrXg%26yaw%3D22.362304433463027!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205410&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAyMC4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
While more and more of the old Network Southeast livery disappears over time, it still has a remarkable amount intact. I kind of wish they'd keep it all.
Does this mean Sundays have a much better reliability?
Yes, its a case where if you don't have trains running, no cancellations or delays can happen there in the first place - and a 100% on time record with 0 trains out of 0 being delayed on a typical sunday.
@@Cowman9791so an atypical Sunday train COULD be delayed, even though there are NO trains? 😂😂
@Cowman9791 I was meaning that the implication is that Farringdon (on the same line with all the same trains) would have the same issue, unless the Sunday service was better when Farringdon has the chance to come out better by still being open and off-setting some of the damage that makes Ciry Thameslink the worst.
@@alanclarke4646
Trains still run on Sundays, and even stop there to change power supplies, but the station is closed, and the doors do not open. There may be less trains on Sundays, I don’t know the full Thameslink timetable.
Any engineering works on the core section usually happen at weekends, which can sometimes come as a nasty surprise to passengers who were expecting to use it!
The location of the station effectively underground is mentioned, as is the consequentially steep gradient between it and Blackfriars, but not the fact that the original line crossed over Ludgate Hill on a prominent bridge. Although this bridge was considered by some to be an eyesore and something of a bottleneck, it was a City icon (as shown in many old prints and photos) and is missed by many. Watching an LNER J50 trundle across with a freight to or from Hither Green was a memorable sight.
The city question leaves most stumped
London itself is not actually a city in the official sense of having been granted a Royal Charter but rather an amalgamation of London boroughs (sometimes called London regions) with the entire area designated as Greater London
But within Greater London lies 2 official cites - the City of London and the City of Westminster, no other London borough holds city status
It's often a pub quiz question - which are England's largest and smallest cities by population? To which the answers would be Birmingham for largest and the City of London for smallest
sat at City Thameslink on the way home from work watching this because my train is delayed
We have the same problem in Manchester. The through lines at Piccadilly station go north along the Castlefield Corridor, which also has only two tracks. It is a continual congestion point and causes many delays. It was intended to increase it to four tracks and build extra through platforms at Piccadilly when the Ordsall Chord was built, a new link between Victoria and Piccadilly Stations. This never happened, and so the Chord is only used at one third capacity. So trains continue to queue to travel along the Castlefield Corridor.
We dream of having that sort of rail investment in central Manchester to ease chronic congestion, but London gobbles up any funds available all the time. We would love to have a City Thameslink in Manchester - so stop moaning!!
@@marksimmons5805 I take it your remark is aimed at Jago and not me! I entirely agree with you.
@@davidsutton7276 Of course! Just irritated at the lavish provision of public transport in the capital. You simply don’t see this disparity in other European countries between the capital & large provincial cities.
Rant over!!
Not rambling really, covering a lot of ground quickly, yes. Excellent as ever, and loving the topless shot of City Thameslink...
...as it were.
When the Thameslink line opened it crossed Ludgate Hill on a bridge and you got a brief view of St. Paul's Cathedral. Then the line was moved underground, so that people coming out of St. Paul's Cathedral would not get a brief view of each Thameslink train.
Should rename it Ludgate Hill instead.
I wondered why they didnt call it "Snow Hill" since its virtually on the site of the original Snow Hill station. I'd accept Ludgate Hill because it has entrances to/from said hill. Even "The City" might not be so bad but "City Thameslink" is halfway between being a vague destination and an advertisement. The name is irritating. As is frequently the case these days, we find recycled infrastructure being pushed beyond its capacity.
Jago error. It is NOT. Ludgate Hill station was between Ludgate and Blackfriars. City Thameslink replaces StPauls TL AND Holborn Viaduct. St Pauls OSI is a trek, better to change at Farringdon to use the Lizzy for most, or BlackFriars for Bank.
Snow Hill station was renamed Holborn Viaduct (Low Level). The GNR goods ramp entrance is still there at street level and the platform is before the sidings, it is the new London Museum site.
@@kbtred51 Its on the road called Ludgate Hill, which I think is what Jago was referring to. I think you could probably make a case for it actually being redundant as a station given the close proximity of the new Blackfriars but I suppose they were trying to keep the commuters that used the former Holborn Viaduct happy.
It's to not confuse it with Birmingham Snow Hill
@@kbtred51Blackfriars for Bank.... You sure?
5:19 that's a very interesting part of london. There is a circle that goes under some of the buildings which traces the outline of the old roman gladiatorial ring.
I loved Holborn Viaduct. I used to travel to it every day for university. And I remember when Canon Street was closed all weekend.
19:23 Hi Jago, I used to work very close to there and do remember when Holborn Viaduct was on the cusp of being closed down, and remember all the works that were going on, causing much chaos around Ludgate Circus.
Interesting video! Thameslink and The Elizabeth Line are London's equivalent of the Paris RER. Both routes have proven extremely useful and well-used. Maybe in the distant future, when the government purse strings are loosened, Crossrail 2 will be added to these through-London routes.
Jago's Ludgate Hill! As long as we all use that name from now on they will have to rename it won't they? And you could re-rename it Snow Hill each year for the one day in the winter when it snows in London, and attract tourists from around the world for the occasion.
Fun fact - although never built, St Pauls Thameslink was built with a corridor leading to the site of Ludgate Hill tube station. It is known by the station staff as the "LUL corridor"
Thanks. As a mere provincial I enjoy these films even though they make me dizzy through lack of understanding the geography!
It's very nice to finally understand the rhyme and reason behind delays and cancellations! I live in Zone 4 along the Thameslink service to Stevenage and it's the only train in a reasonable walking distance as the tubestops around me are 30ish minutes walk away. It's great for getting to Finsbury Park quickly but I've always wondered why there are quite so many cancellations and early terminations on the line. It's been better recently, but any upset to the wider TFL system (like the strikes we had earlier in the year/last year) caused massive issues. Stopped using the Thameslink trains for a few months because it was less reliable than the busses in rush hour!
There is a double cross-over at the southern end. If a double cross-over was to be put-in just before Farringdon, because the City T-Link platforms are long enough to take 16 carriages, it would be possible to change trains on each line, (by a split block in the centres) Trains to the southern destinations could then be turned around. Brighton trains would then have 12 coach trains to Bedford, keeping through services, and vis versa, and all the rest running with 8 coach sets.
Its rather clear that a 2nd Thameslink Programme is needed, one that would upgrade the core from 2-Track to 4 Track and add additional dedicated tracks on the ECML, MML, Brighton Main Line & various other lines, all reserved for Thameslink.
Sure it would cost an absolute fortune, but it would be cheaper than doing it later down the line...
The 'Small C City', as you describe it, is misleading. It is a county and region, comprising two 'cities': The City of London,the 'square mile' and the City of Westminster adjoining it, at Temple Bar. The London County was created in 1889, before which areas were identified by their county, such as 'Westminster, Middlesex'.
Hope this helps.
City Thameslink is so much better now than it used to be. When London Bridge Station was rebuilt Thameslink got its own dedicated track through London Bridge. I worked in the building above the station and commuted home through London Bridge but it was always quicker for me to walk to Cannon St or even the mile to London Bridge rather than endure the two stop journey from City Thameslink.
I assume the Central Line runs right underneath this Station. I wonder if there have ever been discussions to add a stop and make it another official interchange station. The CL interchanges with every other North/south line except Thameslink, so this would seem a logical step?
As someone who lives in the area I never use the station, opting to walk straight past and use Blackfriars which is always open. Operation at City is too limited would be better to shut it and Farringdon is often closed when it shouldn't be. Would be good if the rebuild of Blackfriars had provided better connectivity with the area; the downside being the busy road everyone has to get across.
The lines Thameslink operates on outside the core are in fact mostly run by the same company under different names. Southern and Great Northern are both part of the same franchise as Thameslink.
....and because they don't employ enough drivers they rely on rest day working which, when it doesn't happen leads to cancellations, especially at weekends. Thus adding to the unreliability stats for, inter alia, City Thameslink.
I'd say Manchester Oxford Road or Deansgate are in that same boat for delays, alongside Piccadilly P13/14. Two track railway with multiple operators all trying to squeeze into that one section with knock on effects which can be caused by anything wrong in Edinburgh, Holyhead or Norwich (and anywhere in between).
@03:52 Which is why I find Canary Wharf DLR, Canary Wharf Jubilee Line and Canary Wharf Elizabeth Line SO INFURIATING! Name them three different things and have the OSIs but there are NOT THE SAME STATION!!!!!!!! PLEASE DO THIS KHAN!
I'd love a City vs city video! It's a fascinating place and its history (especially its relations to the rest of London and to the Crown) is particularly hard to find!
The Thameslink brand name may well be the brain child of Network South East, but the idea of reopening Snow Hill Tunnel and running a cross London service through it belongs to the Greater London Council. The GLC also had the brilliant idea of building a huge interchange station at West Hampstead, linking the Chiltern, Midland & North London lines, together with the Met & Jubilee lines. This scheme was scuppered by Thatcher who hated the GLC even more than she hated BR. Perhaps this might be a good subject for a future video?
Thanks for the reminder about the many GLC plans, and agree it is good idea for a future video. There was an article about them in Modern Railways in the 1980s. The one I remember related to the South London Line. They pointed out a problem was that it ran through but didn't stop at the most important place on the line (Brixton). So they would have added a platform on the SLL viaduct over the existing station, although it would have meant singling the track there.
As a tourist I traveled on the Tube and decided to change and Farringdon and exit at City Thameslink. I was charged £7 for like 3 stops despite being within Zone 1.
Never again.
Absolutely agree that Ludgate Hill would have been a better name, but probably spooked by the entrance near the viaduct. Effectively it is one station from a rail point of view, but two stations from the street. Something that is also true of some Lizzy Line stations with their long platforms.
No station could ever be worse than the train station in my hometown of Billingham in the North East of England. It's an absolute abomination, and the old station there (which was demolished decades before I was born) looked so much nicer too!
I travel to City Thameslink from the Cambridge line. 4 journeys this week - 3 had delays. Also learned recently that they can do bi-directional running on the opposite platform (I got to the station at the same time as the paramedics hoofing it down to the emergency on my platform).
The shabbiest London terminus station I've ever used would be Fenchurch Street
Sounds like you've never used Moorgate
I thought it was quite attractive when I used it in 1985.
My suggestion as a non Londoner, to increase capacity in the Thameslink core would be to extend the northern city line to Cannon Street Station. Either create a Cannon Street lower level Station, or more optimal build a new station like Blackfrires across the entire River Thames. Looking at a Topological map, it should be possible to but a ramp as steep as from Blackfrires to City Thameslink between the existing bridge and the Cannon Street (Street). Optionally, you could build a Cannon Street lower level and do a submerged tunnel (so very shallow)to the southern banks of the Thames and than rise to the viaduct to London Bridge Station as well as to the Southeastern Main Line with another connecting viaduct to Elefant and Castle (this would definitely require demolish of existing buildings).
If you feel exceptionally fancy you could add a wye in the tunnel to connect Fenchurch Street Station with both Moorgate and Cannon Street Station.
A possible intermediate station could be Bank. If underground it could connect to both Bank and Cannon St, making Bank, Monument even more complicated as a Bank, Monument, Cannon Street complex.
The District and Circle line platforms almost certainly would have to be rebuild below the new second core.
You can't extend the Northern City Line - there is too much in the way - the Metropolitan Line in front, the Bank of England above, the Northern Line below. Likewise extending beyond Cannon Street could only be done by demolishing the Manskion House and the Bank of England.
It’s one of my favourite stations. It’s near Barts Hospital where I need to go twice a year routine check ups. It’s also near some nice churches and , should I ever come to afford to, I’d like to move to that area. Holborn Viaduct-Ludgate Hill etc . I often go there, just to go there .
I do think that Thameslink should have stuck to serving the Brighton line in the south (plus the Sutton-Wimbledon loop). The problems caused for passengers by delays are exacerbated by the wretched half-hourly services which are the bugbear of south London's rail services in general: better to have fewer destinations each served more frequently. That's why the tube is so successful - if services are frequent, no one minds changing trains to get to the individual station you want.
I still do not see the reason for the Cambridge/Peterborough services being all pushed through the core (even though it benefits me). I much preferred the service into Kings Cross and just as easy to walk to St Pancras. But I think they wanted to reduce congestion and free up slots at Kings Cross for LNER etc. All that has happened is the congestion moves to the core and if the ECML is blocked it can easily back up into the core even though there are only 6 ECML routed trains through the core per hour.
Good video. One thing to mention, the way the concourse at City Thameslink was designed, allowed for a future extension of the Jubilee Line, to provide interchange. That was if the line had been extended beyond Charing Cross. The provision could still be used, if a proposed westward extension of the DLR, beyond Bank, to Charing Cross former Jubilee Line platforms, ever gets built. And I agree, Ludgate Hill would've been a much better name. After all, up here in Fife, Dunfermline Town station was renamed Dunfermline City, so it can be done!
I agree about the awful name. Any of those offered work. Even 'City' on its own as well as Ludgate Hill, or even closeby, Fleet St or Old Bailey or as the Viaduct is actually closeby from one entrance...
The problem is the Thameslink route is way too complicated with way too many destinations, with way too much reliance on 2 ancient tracks
in France we call Thameslink "RER C" ;)
Another commenter already mentioned Munich's second tunnel, but last year they also started a new timetable in the one tunnel that exists. The Munich S-Bahn had the same problems as Thameslink, and it was improved by adding flexibility to the departure before entering the tunnel. Each train now has a 2-3 min long window to depart and travel through the tunnel. Now a train can depart "early" if the following train is late - for the passengers, a train travelling according to plan will enter the tunnel a few minutes late, but leave it on time.
Jago and Geoff posting at the same time… Something is up
What…? Definately watching that next
A glitch in the railway matrix
A good time for all is what’s up!
A vide on the history of the Smithfield sidings would be good, considering live cattle used to be brought there by train in the early days.
It’s one that’s on my list for sure. I love those tank engines the Great Western Railway built for the service.
Somehow, Philadelphia did a better job at making their suburban routes thru-run under the city with a quad-tracked tunnel. If only SEPTA had more money to run frequent service
Hi Jacob I found your documentary video so amazing and insightful, as a huge lover of the London Underground, trains and railways I always learn something new and amazing in your incredible and well explained videos , thank you for your amazing content
The design and ambience of CIty Thameslink is lovely but Jago is right, services are very unpredictable if you want to get beyond St Pancras. Very frustrating!
Used to use this every day when I worked in London, every day it used to be problematic and being that I used to use southeastern as well, it was a double whammy! Every morning and evening was checking live running and working out where I needed to make changes to get in on time or get home at a reasonable hour because trains I used did not stop at every station. So frustrating to get to the station to find that every train was cancelled or delayed or terminated early. it was like a running battle with the train companies. Even now with the work journeys I have to do once every 2 months invariably trains are delayed or cancelled so for those people using it every day......
For a long long time (on my early trips to London), I had no idea about Thameslink and didn't get what City Thameslink was doing in the city. But I have used the line loads of times since then, especially for Gatwick. I am glad it exists!
if Crossrail 2 ever gets off the ground, I like to think that this video will be brought forth as a reason arguing its case for construction.
Even though the following is a blessing in disguise due to the absence of a Piccadilly (see GNP&BR 1903/1905 proposals), Fleet/Jubilee or DLR stop at nearby Ludgate Circus prior to the Elizabeth line at Farringdon, they should have looked at resitting the Central Line stop at either St Paul's or Chancery Lane to City Thameslink just south of Snow Hill (Holborn Viaduct Low Level).
Is this gentleman a Professor in British Railways? Or a holder of a PHD in British Railway Studies? The in-depth knowledge he holds! Incredible !!!
I remember me father working on the London Bridge timings of Thameslinks and the inherent pathing problems that abounded as trying to insert 4 trains per hour into a rush hour block to block scenario was terrible and all it took was for a train at New Cross to bugger up and it was red lights all up and down and this fed back into Thameslink services and one stopped train could cripple everything because there simply does not exist extra pathing through the bottleneck of London Bridge. One of the small saving graces was they pathed Orpington to Charing X/Cannon St services to call at Lewisham and they stopped the through Bromley North to Charing X services which gave them a tiny extra window to play with, things improved with the doubling of the St John's flydown and the Bermondsey flyunder with the extra space created when the HS1 services took over some of the heavy lifting to the Kent services. They chose me old man because he was working the "widowmaker" panel at London Bridge plats 1-6 and he was familiar with the Loughborough Junc workings and by some dint of magic he did make it all work no doubt cursed by many a driver but BR gave him a nice bonus for pulling the turnip out their trousers so to speak.
"It was the nationalised British Rail which cut the direct service.
The capacity issue is not a figment of Network Rail's imagination but a reason why such link is very difficult especially since rail use has increased by 50% since privatisation.
Bromley Council lobbied the Mayor for the Docklands Light Railway to be extended from Lewisham to create a link to the East End. Transport for London (TfL) produced an £800 million plan for a new line via Catford which has now been rejected as not providing good value for money.
Bromley has proposed that the London Overground line which terminates at New Cross be extended via a flyover at Grove Park to Bromley North. This is estimated at £250m. This would provide a wide range of transport connections including Crossrail, the District Line, the Jubilee Line etc. it would still cause capacity problems but might be accommodated by alterations to other services post 2018."
www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/11501577.residents-back-campaign-for-bromley-north-trains-to-run-to-central-london-once-more - From the comments of the 2014 article.
Hello Jago, that was a very congested tale (every two minutes!). City Thameslink is a definite candidate for some ‘widened lines’ - oh if only it were possible.
Best wishes from a bit of Oxfordshire now completely devoid of any lines.
It amuses me that the station name boards say "for St Paul's Cathedral" but there are no signs to point to the correct exit!
It is a 6 minute walk (or a 2 minute cycle) between Blackfriars and City Thameslink via the A201 so it will only take longer to get between if one is elderly and/or has problems walikng (these people would be the people more likely to miss the train for Luton if a new train for it restarts at City Thameslink). The McDonalds on Ludgate Hill is the closest McDonalds for both stations and the fast food place is very close to St Paul's Cathedral.
Always a fan of Holborn Viaduct and also the old Blackfriars with its three terminus platforms. Not particularly sad to hear that the shiny new replacement for HV is a bit of a turkey.
I used to use Holborn Viaduct and remember catching the old slam door trains when there was just 1 platform left. My main memory is getting caught without a ticket though.
I also often used the old Blackfriars, which I remember fondly and now miss.
Ohh, I knew that was familiar! London fur meets used to happen at the bar right next to it.
I tried using it once, and was told that Thameslink only worked on weekdays.
I think Thameslink working on weekdays is somewhat optimistic.
Much more reliable on Sundays.
@@stephenlee5929 What's a fur meet?
I was wondering when I'd see furries here! (There's also at least one fox sneaking around.)
The station was served on Saturdays in the latter few years of furmeets in the area. I used City Thameslink a few times myself.
PS @philroberts7238 A furmeet is a gathering of cartoon animal fans, some of whom wear elaborate animal costumes
I was wondering when I'd see furries here! (There's also at least one fox sneaking around.)
The station was served on Saturdays in the latter few years of furmeets in the area. I used City Thameslink a few times myself.
PS @philroberts7328 A furmeet is a gathering of cartoon animal fans, some of whom wear elaborate animal costumes
LFM! That takes me back.
Ahh, my station on my way home, that or a very short walk to Blackfriars if I want to guarantee a seat to New Barnet. Quick question, is that picture on 01:22 the now disused platforms still clearly visible on the track between City Thameslink & Farringdon? Were they the original Holborn Viaduct platforms?
I've spent many an unhappy trip through CT
it makes no sense to exist when its so near Blackfriars
8:20 “Dry falling fire main manual air release valve located behind”. The sign makes as much sense as City Thameslink station name
In fire riser terminology a "dry riser" is one that is dry when not in use and is supplied with water (or foam mixture) by the fire brigade, while a "wet riser" is one that has permanent water supply.
I would assume that "dry falling fire main" is the equivilent of a dry riser for a location below street level.
Not sure why it needs a manual air release valve though, maybe they were having trouble with air getting trapped in the system.
Plans normally only tell you approximately where something is, so a sign telling you which panel to pull off if you need to access something is useful.
That's for the London Fire Brigade
Cannon Street used to be closed on Sundays but not anymore
The new station should have been named Holborn Viaduct!!
This has reminded me of something; back during the brief time I had to commute into London, despite City Thameslink being basically next door to where I was working, it was almost always quicker for me to get off at Blackfriars and walk there instead.
There was a dwell pause in quieter times to recover between South and North timetables.
@@kbtred51 Doesn't exactly help when you're travelling at peak hours.
For fare purposes City Thameslink is a London terminus when coming from the South, but not when coming from the North!
So a single ticket from Welwyn Garden City to kings cross ( london terminals ) is £14.50, but for City Thameslink you need a London Thameslink ticket at £15.50
Interesting point you make about City Thameslink and St Paul's stations being quite a distance apart from each other. I've always wondered why the Central line decided to call its new station Bethnal Green, despite it being quite far away from the former GER/LNER station of the same name. Maybe that could be the subject for a future video?
Thameslink in general is a deranged wildcard, but also the best transport link in London...
Recently I travelled from Sutton to Elstree. The train I was on was running on time as far as Blackfriars but from thereon was heavily delayed. This was on a Saturday morning.
Brilliant video sir, iirc ticket wise from South of the river City Thameslink counts as a London terminal, Farringdon and St Pancras have be to the named station.
Instead of stopping Sutton trains going north, they took out the Sevenoaks service instead. Now to get to CT or anywhere north (including the Elizabeth Line) from Bromley etc. you have to change at Blackfriars. This may be cross platform going north but can't be going south and crossing from platform 1 to 3 or 4 is a real slog.
Used to go to an event every three weeks back when it was based at the fleet place entrance to the station, always found it easier to just walk up from St Paul's, was often quicker then the interchange at Farringdon. I did go down into the station once, was odd to find it pretty much abandoned given its locatation in the centre of London next to one of the world's most well known attractions.
Blackfriars and City Thameslink are less than 5 minutes' walk apart. It really would not be a big deal to have to go to Blackfriars instead!
Working on Thameslink at a station just north of London I have noticed that sometimes we will have all the southbound trains (which haven't yet passed through the core) are arriving on time but all the northbound trains will be arriving a few minutes late due to getting held up in the core. It is just silly tbh.
For maximum capacity of a double track line, the stations need four tracks. In Zurich and Stockholm, this was done at the central station, but not along the rest of the core route. The consequences are obvious.
There are some fantastic ariel photos from the 1940's on the Historic England site (search for Historic England Ariel Photographs) and one from 1948 shows the old Blackfriars station, Holborn Viaduct Station and the goods lines into the tunnel. I used Holborn Viadust in the mid 1980's for a couple of years then never needed to use the line again until recently as I now work in Blackfriars so have the joys of Thameslink to Blackfriars or the Elizabeth Line to Farringdon. I remember that even then, Holborn Viaduct felt like it was on the verge of closure as it seemed to have very little train traffic.
It’s my go-to for pre-dawn runs to Gatwick, not least because it’s a small station, so you can be through the front doors and down onto the platform in 60 seconds or so. Plus, for the first couple of trains, the platforms are pretty empty, which is preferable if you’ve got hours of travel ahead of you. 👍