A good vita-saw buff would literally be increase self-regen on wearer by 1 and increase max hp by 5 and just remove the uber stat but change downisde to -20 hp Your 130hp at start but 4 hits and or kills(choose) u get back to 150 with 4 extra regen on wearer or should u get a health buff over base 150hp? Or increase minimum self-regen rate by 1 but still 150hp at the max stack of 4 (choose) Basically riskier but better amputator but without taunt
@@deirasjankauskas3381 That's certainly an interesting idea, but the problem is, that would put medic over the quick-scope ceiling and turn him into some kind of diet demo knight.
that is why community servers suck in some ways. When you alter game mechanics, you make certain weapons irrelevant (like when rbs is off, there is no upside to using panic attack). IMO leave shit alone, except maybe random crits (which doesn't affect game mechanics really).
It's hilarious that 4 swings maxes the benefit out at 60% retention after your death, when if you had used the Ubersaw, those 4 swings would give you 100% of an Uber that you could pop in order to prevent that death.
Vita-Saw can still come out on top in two situations: - The UberCharge that you gain and use to save yourself with Uber-Saw is ultimately not anything more than saving your life(mentioned in the video) - You need UberCharge later for offense and you cannot afford to spend it right away, selfishly, as an Uber-Saw Medic. Then just dying straight away and then respawning with 60% might be faster, or more time-critical. You could make the argument that Uber-Saw then allows you to swing and gain it fast after spending, but unless a Spy allows it, I don't think any team can cover you while you engage in a TF2 melee combat as a Medic. It's hilarious to think that Vita-Saw can mess up a competitive player's Uber counting way more easily than Uber-Saw, though lol.
@@SyRose901 Also aside from stock uber, your uber might not be that useful for saving yourself. Krits are worthless, Quick-fix can be ok, but strong focus fire, crits, demo traps and spy/sniper can still kill you. Like Fish said, Vitasaw seems to fit those 2 the best. Vaccinator is ok for saving yourself, but the uber charges so fast, plus you'd be missing the headshot immunity.
Like massgunner4162 said its of course assuming you somehow survive during those 4 melee hits, the thing with the ubersaw is that it rewards an aggresive playstyle without any compensation if you die (most of the times by a random crit, headshot, backstab, point blank attack or other random bullshit that could drop you dead in a second or less) while the vita-saw is not designed to be rewarding for playing in a certain style but more like a stock bonesaw that makes your death as a medic less punishing, it's not meant to be used offensively in a suicide charge.
@@luisfernandosilvaquintero On the other-hand, the vita-saw is great for enabling a cornered medic to chose going down swinging over premature use of a uber enabling sudden comebacks that would confuse competitive TF2 players.
The Amputator shines when your team is struggling to make a push around an area. Have 4 teammates and maybe 4 seconds before the next wave of enemies hit? Pop a quick taunt, then go back to buffing.
It's also got the niche use of healing yourself faster when there's no teammates around. When your Soldier pocket blindly steps into a sightline and gets domed by the three snipers, you're on your own. If you're hurt you can pull out the magic saw and heal yourself a few HP more than your passive regen would have. Is it very niche? Yes. Is it still an upside? Yes. Is it worth the damage penalty? Eh...
@@WulfieZi I think the dmg penalty is really minor downside for this weapon. As medic in first place you shouldn't be fighting enemies, especially in melee fight. Of course uber-saw balance it by high risk high reward, but from my experience most of the time i spend healing teammates and only occasion for doing something with melee is when that one enemy spy get lost and my teammate is so clueless about his presence, in other scenarios Amputator at least for me shines better than uber-saw that literally sits in my melee slot and rarely see it's use, while amputator not once saved me and my team
I've always said using the Amputator is a no-brainer when you have several Medics in a team. You're just boosting everyone's survivability and making pushes better. Find a safe spot and have Pyros nearby to check for spies. The damage nerf isn't a downside for a weapon that's used for group-support.
I ditched the Ubersaw for the Amputator years ago and haven't looked back. The area healing and faster health regen are more useful and safer to use more of the time.
I really like the idea of the vita-saw's organs being used as health packs. You can either use it on a teamate or yourself after a delay or with an animation like the heavy's sandwitch(so it cant be spamed in a melee fight) with anything over max being given as overheal. It could be medium packs with we keep the defualt gains or small if we use your idea of gaining organs Edit: should specify I didn't mean he should eat it. I was thinking of him injecting himself like a blood transfusion.
Should just let you throw a medium health kit on a half second delay. 1 kit for each hit. If the medic is in a fist fight then he’s in fucking trouble. Fish hit the nail on the head with Medic ganking; you gotta kill the fucker fast, he’s got regen. There’s no chipping a medic to death, he doesn’t care. Even if he’s got a 50% hp kit in his shoe, he’s still going to eat it to the soldier.
I would like to take a moment to acknowledge how in-character it would be for medic to have an organ speared on a needle and jamming said organ into someone else as a curative measure.
I did a few tests with the Vita-Saw and found some trivial downsides and upsides. If you hit an ubered enemy, you still get an organ, and if you get killed by an eyelander demo or air strike soldier your organ amount gets added to their head/kill count.
That is such a stupid downside despite making total sense but its so stupid to nerf an already bad weapon like this even if neash the enemy demoknight and airstrike soldier already 2 classes that can and are encourged to dive bomb a medic have even more of a reason to
The best part about the Vita-Saw (At least to me) is that it allows you to *tactically killbind.* Like, you're in the middle of an Ubercharge, you have a few organs stored, and an enemy combo shows up that is basically guaranteed to kill you once your Uber wears off, you can press your killbind to die with Uber remaining and therefore get it back when you respawn, instead of the Uber wearing off and *then* you die.
Ok, this sounds very fun for all people involved: >You uber your pocket with crits >Enemy medic pop stock uber to counter push >"Guess I'll die" *killbinds* >"Wtf was that?!" - enemy team >"Wtf was that?!" - your pocket
Finally, somebody who doesn't just brainlessly repeat the "It rewards you for dying" line and then just not even consider the situations Medic finds himself in.
honestly the Vita saw is weird because by all intents and purposes , in an organized play enviroment, its a seriously busted weapon on the sole fact that using it basically forces the enemy medic to use it aswell(sure the ubersaw is still the better weapon, but in a game where both teams are playing around you having the ability ot retain SOMe uber on death makes tracking said uber rougher ot get right.).
Well of course peoooe are just saying that, since when have TF2 fans sat down and thought about something “It rewards you for dying” Pardon me, what reward? Oh, some Uber retention, yeah that’s not called a reward. If you didn’t die you would have ALL your Uber. Instead, it lowers the punishment of some frenchie appearing behind you ready to take your life
I feel like if you swap the Ubersaw and Vitasaw's downsides they become a lot more balanced. The Ubersaw makes you squishier in exchange for the immense defensive benefits of gaining more Uber (except with the Kritzkrieg), and the Vitasaw has slower swingspeed to stop you farming organs.
Yeah but I don't think that will change much. As was discussed in the video, the health threshold is so non existent that it might as well not be there at all.
@@TJ-hg6op Especially as Medic. Even though it might not seem like much, being able to tank just a little bit more damage can let you stay on the frontlines longer to provide healing and allow your team to kill whoever's attacking.
My "favorite" thing about the vita-saw is the insane interaction between the kill/head/organ counters on this weapon and the Bazaar Bargain/Eyelander/Air Strike. If an enemy kills you with one of these weapons, they get a number of heads/kills equal to ALL the organs you had. Of course, this works in reverse, but 4 more heads on an Eyelander demo could be WAY more useful than 4 more organs on a Vita Saw medic.
This is why the variable for heads and organs should be differ things and named as the counters in the code so they only find bonuses of the same type and add those, this is like if a demoknight killing an engineer gave one head for each metal he had and also for each Fronteir Justice crit as well because why not? Or like a diamondback spy sapping a sentry and getting all the crits that were supposed to go to the engineers fronteir justice, it just makes no sense .
I am so sad that nobody else wants to play medic; I've always loved being right behind the action while supporting others doing the fighting. The thank you I'm given (even more so with voice chat) fills me with such happiness that nothing else in the game really can. May be a bit weird but hey, when the team needs a medic, better one who enjoys it.
I feel the same way honestly. Maybe medic isn't too versatile, nor too capable in 1-on-1 combat, but I find him very fun and I love the thanks it gets.
I do enjoy playing as Medic cause it's nice to help out. Allthough sometimes I just want to say screw it and play for my own sake as Pyro or Spy, not caring if I lose the game because of it.
Honestly same, Medic has always been a satisfying class to play for me, despite the fact that some people say he’s pretty simple mechanically. Technically he’s not, and a lot of game sense is required to play him effectively, but you guys know that. Nothing will be quite as nice as saving a teammate’s life with a crossbow shot or saving a scout from burning to death. (At least to me.)
There is also another factor to the vita saw that I think is worth mentioning, if you die at a bad time during the match, you could either respawn ahead of your team or respawn after your entire team did, especielly on defense, leaving you unable to start building uber, so conserving some from your previous life can actually help a little, other than that great video fish.
I have a mindset: "Playing the meta is boring". That's why I prefer using weird or rarely used playstyles or weapons, so when I tried the vita-saw my thoughts were "yeah, it exists", it's boring but not useless, so the healing effect and crits you propose are really interesting and give medic a more aggressive playstyle, as well as make it a side grade to the Amputator itself. With the Kritzkrieg or the Quick-Fix, this version would be able to roll entire teams.
0:20 I love playing medic, but... Yeah, you're right about me never wanting to get off of the cross bow and ubersaw unless I'm just memeing with battle medic.
A situation a lot of people don't consider is using the Vita-Saw in is when you're using a non-invincibility Medi-Gun, especially the Vaccinator and the Kritzkrieg. Both have Uber gain upsides that grant more freedom beyond needing to run the Ubersaw, and the Uber granted on-hit in a last stand situation would have been worthless anyway. Instead, what you get is a boost when you respawn that assists in what those two Medi-Guns are good for in the first place: applying pressure. Even retaining 30% Uber with the Kritz is almost 10 seconds off your next pop that would have been wasted if you were running the Ubersaw.
2:50, this has got to be one of my most favorite gags in the entirety of Bad Weapon Academy, and I have no idea why or how. Also, if I remember correctly and according to an old version of Fawful's Minion's top ten worst weapons, there was a previous version of the Vita-Saw that just gave you a straight up a Fifth of their Uber every single time they died. Mind you, this stupid thing also still gave you 10 less health. So, basically, before the rework, Medics were rewarded for dying, just for having this weapon I think out. So, all you needed to do was switch to this weapon the second you died, and instead of losing Uber, you gained Uber. You gotta love Valve sometimes.
These days with how good enemy players can be, I've found myself using solemn vow far more often than the ubersaw. Like you said with the vita saw, it encourages aggressive play to make use of its upside, which can get you killed. Gaining 25 uber doesnt mean much if you die 1 second later and lose it. The solemn vow however, has been really great for me to be able to have perfect knowledge on when to retreat and when to actually stand my ground as medic. There have been plenty of moments of being chased down by a scout or a powerclass with less than 15 health because they are so desperate for the kill, and then I shoot once in their direction and kill them.
Y'know I must admit the WR change to the vitasaw does seem a lot more multidimensional as (for reference) I play tc2 where the vitasaw was completely reworked and reskined to take teeth (roblox moderation stuff) and also boost Uber duration for 1 second per tooth up to 5. Love using it especially since it has a dmg penalty making more potential for more teeth but I always did have the problem that you had to manage it and Uber if you wanted to effectively use it.
Im not sure why but the idea of harvesting teeth feels a little more disturbing to me than harvesting organs, maybe caus it feels a little less cartoony somehow? Not entirely sure really But yeah, being able to extend your uber as reward for risky melee attacks does seem like a really cool rebalance actually
Using stored crits (like the diamondback but limited to melee) would make a lot more sense as a last resort option than it's current base design. I think adding healing to it's capabilities would be overkill but it's clearly worked on your server so there's merit to that path as well
Or maybe you could pick your benefit like a mix between the choosing a single target buffing Buff Banner and the Vaccinator, all in exchange for a certain number of organs. Like 3 organs for healing, 5 organs for mini-crits, and 10 organs for something really good or something else, like maybe a faster heal crit charge up or a temporary faster Uber Charge rate or something like that.
I think you absolutely nail the point of the vita. It's not a run into the enemy and hope for the best (that's the uber saws point). It's to rewad you for surviving because as you said the best way to kill medic is to one shot them witch means it doesn't have a negative effect or if someone does try to rush you you can use the vita and surviving your assassination attempt allows for even more benefit. I think it's even kinda good it's just that people misunderstand it and medic having the skilless ubersaw but I do agree a rework would be nice.
Total redesign idea. On kill: gain the effects of your own ubercharge for 2.5 seconds. Quick fix equip? Acts as a quick heal. Stock? Short invincibility. Kritzkreig? Go for a chain kill.
This effect would be far better as a cross bow replacement. Give up ranged healing for a bit of tick damage and a ability to preserve your uber. And it gets medics to use the gun in there kit for damage.
The funny thing is that it didn't work like that before. Before the organ farming, the Vita Saw only served to help you keep 20 of uber period when you die at expenses of 10 base HP. It was made to be less of a winning tool and more like a way to cushion your death and respawn from the get go.
Somehow the redesign of the Vita-Saw is even worse than the original Vita-Saw design (where the Vita-Saw's upside was also passive). Requiring the upside only come into play when you die has always been a terrible design (because while you will die at some point no matter your class, you should not be banking on that to gain an advantage from your weapon). It's stat should be a general Medic stat you could purchase in MvM, not a weapon stat. Personally, I'd redesign it to be a self-only healing equivalent to the Ubersaw (and the Ubersaw should be redesigned to make you more fragile). How I'd do it: =Vita-Saw: +25 Max health on wearer (medic max health increased to 175) +1 health regenerated per second on wearer +On Hit: +25 health (can overheal) +Taunt Kill: +150% max health (can overheal) -25% shorter ubercharge (Ubercharge lasts 6 seconds instead of 8 seconds) [or] -50% slower ubercharge rate (stock medigun would take about 60 seconds to 120 seconds to charge instead of its usual 40 to 80 seconds to charge) =Ubersaw: +On Hit: +25% ubercharge added +Up to 1% ubercharge generated per second on wearer (charge rate drops the longer the player goes without being damaged) +Taunt Kill: +100% ubercharge added -25 Max health on wearer (medic max health decreased to 125) These make the weapons better balanced: * Vita-Saw allows the medic to survive more punishment, possibly getting off a charge or escaping a situation they'd have otherwise died in * Ubersaw now makes the medic much easier to kill, making it harder to actually reach 100% uber --- As for your redesign of the Vita-Saw: I'd rather that be a new weapon entirely, rather than a Vita-Saw redesign.
The vita-saw could be like the medi version of the eyelander. Maybe each organ could add an extra point of HP regeneration or a larger buff if it was changed to collect organs on melee kill
Funny enough the using the organs to heal is also a bioshock reference **Since in that game one skull lets you take spider splicers organs to use as a medkit!** __So really it’s odd they didn’t just let you heal with them or keep them for the Uber effect__
As a medic main, I really want to use the vita-saw just to be different (and because it looks cool with a cool taunt sound), but the weapon's stats are so strange. -10HP feels like it shouldn't be much, but I've lived plenty of instances in single digit health (and afterburn). I love the organ idea as an insurance or last resort for when you die, but against a competent team, I don't think you'll ever be able to whack people with it. I never got far in Bioshock, so idk how faithful it is to an ADAM Harvester. I can't speak against being an aggressive medic because I use the Solemn Vow to know my enemies HP (and occasionally uber) and if I stand a chance killing them with a melee attack or two (or a crossbow from a distance). Maybe I'll give it a try at some point...
This is the poster child for "don't always balance everything around top players". The pre-nerf version gave you a passive retention of up to 20% uber, something that rewarded you for playing medic "correctly" as you could out-uber any other medic if your team didn't feed ubersaw hits. This is a mild edge for skilled medics in virtually any arena … except competitive 6v6, where it was a blatant upgrade and was summarily banned. The current version is more "competitive" but for the vast majority of players it's just a bad ubersaw and sees no play instead of some play
I think its most useful on the kritzkieg where you're likely to be playing more aggressive anyways, and popping uber doesnt provide you with ANY benefits, so it makes sense to just bank some uber for later in case you die then the small chance you get more uber and get back to friendly lines.
What I think could be a neat change is if the number of organs you get can increase your max health that life. So keep the health penalty (maybe even increase it to -15), and then each organ gives you +5 max health. I'd cap it out at 10 organs worth of buffs, so you could get to 185-enough to be a tough one to kill, but still within range of two pipes or rockets. Once you die you lose them all, so you're back to being squishy.
You're riding the Ubersaw way too hard in this one. The Amputator is a great alternative, especially if you're trying to stay alive with a dubiously reliable team. I couldn't tell you how many times it saved me from afterburn damage in my 65+ hours of playing Medic.
@@brisky3252It's a pretty cool upside. Maybe the 2nd most valuable asset for Spy, who has it all the time. Allows Spy to, well, spy on enemies more effectively.
Less riding the ubersaw and more under valuing the other weapons because the ubersaw is the best option but the amputatour and the solemn vow do have there place and use
If you have a "dubiously reliable team," then chances are A) you've lost the match already, or B) you would get more mileage out of switching to a more offensive class and stomping the other team if they are similarly "dubiously reliable."
Okay, so I actually get a lot of scenarios where I really wish I had the amputator equipped. the amount of healing it can poop out in one go is mad. Really helps get your team back in order quick and make the most of enemy respawn timers after a big punch up.
I love how medic is the only class that has a defined meta. The others you can get away with using other weapons and have them be viable. But medic it's, Ubersaw and Crossbow.
what if the vitasaw, along with the uber retaining gimmick, you can also use organs ("reload" button, R for most people) during an ubercharge (only while using an ubercharge) to extend/refill the duration by a set amount, say +10~15% duration per organ depending on balance, with a similar max organs used during an uber being 3 or 4 (else the ubercharrge would be effectively infinite if you had enough organs)
12:25 The Amputator is not that bad, I might even go as far as calling it Medic's second best option. Picture this: Your team is badly injured after a push and healing them with the Medi-Gun one by one would take a long time, so you make yourself defenseless for 3 secounds, but get the majority of your teammates back to full HP. This situation happens quite often, and because it's a 12v12 server, your team will most likely be around you while you are taunting to protect you. Sure, the damage penalty can screw you over, but the Ubersaw has taught most medics bad habits. For Instance, running in aggressively when an enemy is low oh health, always engaging with Spies at melee distance, etc. As a Medic, you should not take such risks in the first place. You should only use your melee as a last resort, but this happens quite rarely when you are playing him right and staying with your team. And in situations where you *HAVE TO* saw off some limbs, the damage penalty is not that severe. Furthermore, the other options don't give as much utility. The Solemn Vow lets you see the health of enemies, but it can bait you into a false sense of security when seeing a low-health target. The Vita-Saw only benefits you after death, and as a Medic you should keep your deaths to a minimum. And lastly the Bonesaw is just a stock melee weapon, so it's only useful in self defense. In conclusion, I really believe that the pros outweigh the cons and that the Amputator overshadows every other option but the Ubersaw.
On the topic of why use anything other than ubersaw: I will say that the solumn vow is underatted among the casual community. But it is actually pretty good albeit less useful than it is in a competitive setting. I love picking off enemies that i know are low hp with the crusader’s crossbow. the best choice if you don’t want to risk your life for 25% uber.
The vita saw has become quite literally my favorite item on the rebalance server, it's great for prepping heavies and soldiers and countering reduced healing from combat, and the laughs from utterly screwing over unsuspecting spies and scouts are priceless.
Personally I don't touch the thing. -10 HP off the class whose survivability is paramount is too much for me. Damage thresholds be damned, in a game with afterburn, bleed, chip damage, sentry guns, mini-sentry guns, and random shotgun pellets dealing 3 damage from across the map, I need every bit of HP that I can get. -10 HP also means -5 overheal if you're working with a second Medic, and fewer HP regained from health packs. Sorry but I'll stick to Ubersaw if I'm feeling spicy and Amputator if I'm not.
As a maggot at aiming since i don't play fps or pc games very often only playing tf2 every here and there, Medic's overdose is a better choice for me. You gain speed with more uber, and i don't wanna die with a significant amoubt of uber. So the Overdose comes into play when it matters. Now if I was more skilled than that'd be a different story, but don't leave out the Overdose in the competition for primary slot. Noobs are a lot more handy playing Medic than any other class, so a noob primary like the overdose is perfect.
Commenting on 12:25 As an avid Amputator user the trick to using it is to to use it when you don't want your teammates to know that they're actively being healed. Teammates who are being healed and see that there's a medic healing them with the little icon that shows your uber tend to overestimate their survivability and recklessly peak which means even though there's a lot of teammates around you which you could heal up normally with the medigun as soon as you start healing them they immediately peak and get themselves more injured which results in more injured people to heal and more teammates dying like idiots when you're just trying to top them off. It also seems to not be negatively effected as harshly by crit heals as mediguns as it feels like people who are under direct fire get topped off really quickly with it so you should only ever need to use the taunt once at a time. However, I will say that The Amputator actually gets pretty heavily invalidated by the Crusader's crossbow so you shouldn't ever need to use the Amputator if you're using the crossbow. Which is bad since the Crossbow is really good but it's also kind of good since it means it performs well when your team's lost their Crusader's Crossbow privileges because they absolutely suck at keeping you alive. It's funny that the Amputator's best use case is employing psychological warfare against your own team to protect them from their own stupidity when you're already having to gimp your team's success chances to keep yourself alive because of said team's stupidity. And I guess the extra health regeneration helps in a pinch but it only really comes up when you're walking to the front line or back to your team after surviving an ambush since you're going to be using the syringe gun in said ambush. Additionally the syringe gun being a self defense weapon means that it's actually okay at mediating the Amputator's lower melee damage weakness. Just remember that the syringe gun only deal any reasonable amount of damage when backpedaling against an enemy chasing you.
"The design of the game is such that a lot of your teammates are going to have your back." In an ideal world that should be true; but you forget how deep incompetence can go in this game.
Nice to see a video that covers that the Kritz and Vita work decently together. Nothing like popping only to immediately get crocketed or backstabbed or headshot with 92% of your charge left. This is also pretty important for those situations where you are caught out and are going to die guaranteed regardless of if you had the Ubersaw equipped or not, like when you have 37% charge on Stock and your Soldier just got random critted by a pill. Even if you had something 80% charge, and getting a swing off would let you pop to save your life, the only thing that really accomplishes in 90% of situations is _maybe_ skipping your respawn timer, if you are close enough to your team to recover before your Uber wears off. That's not happening with Kritz, going for risky Ubersaw swings is the least beneficial on that particular Medigun because of that lack of defensive utility it's Uber provides, you'd much rather be able to respawn with 30% charge in those situations over 0% and the -10 health, like you said in the video, makes such little difference in your survival rate that you'd never really notice, and would much rather have the boon of potentially respawning with 60% charge after you just got killed by a fair and balanced game mechanic through no fault of your own. Ubersaw gives you lots of dopamine when used in its ideal situation as Stock is better than Kritz in most situations, whereas the Vitasaw helps prevent migraines when you feel like running Kritz but want to do a little risk aversion.
> "What the hell am l supposed to do with 7 organs when l only need 4?" Well, by that same logic, what the hell is an eyelander demo or a bazaar sniper supposed to do with 12 heads when they only need 4, and why didn't you make something similar on your servers for those? Just accept the ever-ludicrously increasing amount of organs the same way you accept the ever-ludicrously increasing amount of heads for the other body parts-collecting weapons.
11:25 My thoughts exactly, I want the organs to heal you instead of being an uber saver, an organ could give the medic back 25 Hp and he can still move while healing himself, but at the cost of 20% damage penalty and slower swing speed.
What if they made it so healthpacks (and lunchbox items) heal you more depending on how many organs you have? It would still have the uber retaining effect, but now you would get a benefit where you'll get (let's say) 25% more health from health kits for each organ you have. That way you would get a benefit from going over 4 organs. Imagine any healthpack or heavy throwable healing you to full. Sounds pretty cool and it would be very useful for medic. It would be a nice way to partially counteract the -10 hp downside.
That is prehaps the best re balance idea I have seen for this, it would make it about retaining uber and survivablity in the face of large numbers of close up fights.
Should ubersaw be nerfed/reworked? Like not giving you uber for hits, but gaining bonus damage depending on the amount of uber you have (up to double damage)
Honestly, I think the old Vita-Saw (with it saving 10% Uber passively without having to harvest organs) was more interesting, at least in how the community reacted to it. It was honestly a good case as how different the game was between casual and competitive, a weapon that's near useless in one but downright broken in another.
I rarely ever have a need to be in melee range, especially when I'm near my pocket, so the upside is literally useless to me with a pretty big downside. I've survived with 10 or less health so many times I can't give that up for the potential of hitting someone with it to save a little bit of Uber
It isnt super effective but it is fun, I use the Overdose, usually quickfix but regular uber and vacc work too, and the vita as a get ubetcharge from healing, then use the over dose speed to run around and be a rat and use the vita to keep uber on inevitable death to get back to full overdose speed faster
0:24 the classic Medic who is a slave to Ṫ̵̨͎͉̱̞͙̼̠̘̯̞̀͑̃̋̀̃͗͗̕͘͝H̸̨̺̖̟̖̗̳͔̖͐͛͌̚̕͝E̷̡̧̞̗̳̱̲̙͕̙͂̔̌͊̆̎͗́͆̈ ̶̛̞̥͍̲̠͓̫͔͉͇̺͂́̾̿́͒̒̽͑͜͜͠M̴̛̤͔̳͉̯̹̹̒͐͗̽̀̊̓̃̄̎̂͆͘͝Ȩ̴̼̥͙͈̫͈̾̅́̇́̊̐̎̒̔̅̿̀̊̀͊T̷̢̨̡̞̟̺̩̞͉̤̲̟̥̪̤̥̟̠͠Ā̵̜̜̣̦̺́́̊͌̈͒͊̃̿̂̂͘͝͝
i used to be a hardcore vita-saw user, back when you didnt have to hit anyone with it and you'd always keep 20% making it an absolute game changer where you never had to risk your life and just got free uber every respawn
As a medic main and professional masochist I can confirm the Vita-saw is garbage. You get less health from health packs,if a friendly medic overheals you yiu get less of of and it lasts shorter,surfs arent as viabel from expolsives becasue you lack the health to take the dmg and survive the fall dmg. Its not even good for new medics,becasue they are going to learn that dying as medic isen't that big of a deal.When you should avoid dying as much as possibel. Its a bad wepon and it promotes even worse gamesense.
I do have a reason not to use the Ubersaw, because it is overrated and boring. I use stock Bonesaw for the funny, and the Amputator is more valuable than you think, especially on chokepoints.
Honestly I don't enjoy using the crossbow as medic. Doesn't suit the kind of playstyle I do. I more or less just prefer spraying and praying with the syringe guns because it's more funny.
I feel like the Vita-saw would become a very solid option, compared to the Ubersaw, with a couple of changes. Now mind you, I'm not too sure what changes it could have, but maybe each organ could also heal you when picked up. Alternatively, keeping with that idea, what if your organ count impacted your health regeneration (up to a certain point ofc). I also like the idea of being able to generate organs without having to melee an enemy. Perhaps they could make it so your primary weapons can also make organs using a damage meter system, generating an organ with a primary weapon when it is full, consuming the meter.
I actually really like the BWR version, and I was actually going to suggest that as well. But some small change I'd like to propose maybe for another workaround? What if the Vita-Saw just converted organs to health drops? With a slightly reduced healing rate from your medigun as a downside? 1-3 are small health kits, where as 4-6 are medium, and 7+ are full health kits? I do feel the full health could be a bit dangerous, but at the same time, getting 7+ organs might just be rare enough to where its a massive reward for playing so well.
This video changed my perspective as a medic main. Firstly i realized that vac and the vita saw would be a disgusting combo actually Then also, if you are constantly rolling an enemy team and never dying, you can rack up single swings on light classes and by the time you finally die youll come back with another sudden uber they arent expecting. It actually makes sense! This is a new way for me to play, thank you!
As simple as it was, I miss the old Vita Saw Yea you only got to keep like 9% Uber on death, but you didn't have to work for it either. Despite how small 9% was it made a leading difference in my eyes. I'll be real real with any of the Bonesaws Medic has I wasn't actively try to hit anyone with it unless they came up to me, but at that point it was life or death. Equipping the old Vita-Saw was pretty much just passive in my eyes as I only needed to fill essentially 90 Uber instead. Having not played TF2 for 8 years, when finally able to come back to it I was pretty disappointed on the new Vita Saw changes and now just stick to Uber Saw. To me what was once an alternative weapon to an already stale class in meta became more stale
Possible rework: Instead of giving uber back on death, organs let you start out on higher uber percentages (maybe like, 5 percent per organ or somethin idk i don't do balance) after you finish the charge, but are destroyed at the same time so it's not a permanent snowball that slowly results in infinite uber
i play with the vita saw cuz i dont trust my team for a quarter of a second and id rather be able to cash in my hits so i still have some uber for the next fight even if i die. the minus 10 health is barely anything and doesnt change any important thresholds, and it synergises incredibly well with the overdose since if you need to get back to the front lines quickly you can do it that much faster.
"Medic is the class that everyone wants on their team, but no one wants to play." As a medic main, that saying has always unironically annoyed me a bit.
If you as a medic are that scared/concerned about enemy spies and snipers (sniper especially), running the vita-saw isn't that bad of an idea if you believe you'll be dropping uber to them a lot
One thing I could think of for those extra organs is allowing them to be used in place of Übercharge... Like if you have 6 or 7 Organs, you could pop a Über using them.
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Minor correction: The Vita-Saw on our BWR servers does not retain the Uber on death feature. I misremembered how it worked, my bad.
A good vita-saw buff would literally be increase self-regen on wearer by 1 and increase max hp by 5 and just remove the uber stat but change downisde to -20 hp
Your 130hp at start but 4 hits and or kills(choose) u get back to 150 with 4 extra regen on wearer or should u get a health buff over base 150hp? Or increase minimum self-regen rate by 1 but still 150hp at the max stack of 4 (choose)
Basically riskier but better amputator but without taunt
@@deirasjankauskas3381 That's certainly an interesting idea, but the problem is, that would put medic over the quick-scope ceiling and turn him into some kind of diet demo knight.
that is why community servers suck in some ways. When you alter game mechanics, you make certain weapons irrelevant (like when rbs is off, there is no upside to using panic attack). IMO leave shit alone, except maybe random crits (which doesn't affect game mechanics really).
I would like it if it had a nerfed version returned like: 5% uber per organ retained on death, up to 50%
My brother in Christ you made the weapon.
I think its insane that you can remove the internal organs of an enemy, and they could still walk around as if they just got stabbed normally
AH my adrenal gland, anyway
Knowing Medic, they probably already have a few extra organs anyway.
he stole someone's skeleton and that guy is still alive afterwards
harvesting a few organs from a living enemy is no big deal for medic
be quiet zoo
@@Mai.Calico?
It's hilarious that 4 swings maxes the benefit out at 60% retention after your death, when if you had used the Ubersaw, those 4 swings would give you 100% of an Uber that you could pop in order to prevent that death.
Vita-Saw can still come out on top in two situations:
- The UberCharge that you gain and use to save yourself with Uber-Saw is ultimately not anything more than saving your life(mentioned in the video)
- You need UberCharge later for offense and you cannot afford to spend it right away, selfishly, as an Uber-Saw Medic. Then just dying straight away and then respawning with 60% might be faster, or more time-critical. You could make the argument that Uber-Saw then allows you to swing and gain it fast after spending, but unless a Spy allows it, I don't think any team can cover you while you engage in a TF2 melee combat as a Medic.
It's hilarious to think that Vita-Saw can mess up a competitive player's Uber counting way more easily than Uber-Saw, though lol.
That is assuming you even walk away with 4 swings because the enemy is either dead or already killed you.
@@SyRose901 Also aside from stock uber, your uber might not be that useful for saving yourself. Krits are worthless, Quick-fix can be ok, but strong focus fire, crits, demo traps and spy/sniper can still kill you. Like Fish said, Vitasaw seems to fit those 2 the best. Vaccinator is ok for saving yourself, but the uber charges so fast, plus you'd be missing the headshot immunity.
Like massgunner4162 said its of course assuming you somehow survive during those 4 melee hits, the thing with the ubersaw is that it rewards an aggresive playstyle without any compensation if you die (most of the times by a random crit, headshot, backstab, point blank attack or other random bullshit that could drop you dead in a second or less) while the vita-saw is not designed to be rewarding for playing in a certain style but more like a stock bonesaw that makes your death as a medic less punishing, it's not meant to be used offensively in a suicide charge.
@@luisfernandosilvaquintero On the other-hand, the vita-saw is great for enabling a cornered medic to chose going down swinging over premature use of a uber enabling sudden comebacks that would confuse competitive TF2 players.
The Amputator shines when your team is struggling to make a push around an area. Have 4 teammates and maybe 4 seconds before the next wave of enemies hit? Pop a quick taunt, then go back to buffing.
It's also got the niche use of healing yourself faster when there's no teammates around. When your Soldier pocket blindly steps into a sightline and gets domed by the three snipers, you're on your own. If you're hurt you can pull out the magic saw and heal yourself a few HP more than your passive regen would have.
Is it very niche? Yes. Is it still an upside? Yes. Is it worth the damage penalty? Eh...
@@WulfieZi I think the dmg penalty is really minor downside for this weapon. As medic in first place you shouldn't be fighting enemies, especially in melee fight. Of course uber-saw balance it by high risk high reward, but from my experience most of the time i spend healing teammates and only occasion for doing something with melee is when that one enemy spy get lost and my teammate is so clueless about his presence, in other scenarios Amputator at least for me shines better than uber-saw that literally sits in my melee slot and rarely see it's use, while amputator not once saved me and my team
I've always said using the Amputator is a no-brainer when you have several Medics in a team. You're just boosting everyone's survivability and making pushes better. Find a safe spot and have Pyros nearby to check for spies. The damage nerf isn't a downside for a weapon that's used for group-support.
i use the amputator for more selfish reasons, in taking advantage of its increased health regeneration.
I ditched the Ubersaw for the Amputator years ago and haven't looked back. The area healing and faster health regen are more useful and safer to use more of the time.
I really like the idea of the vita-saw's organs being used as health packs. You can either use it on a teamate or yourself after a delay or with an animation like the heavy's sandwitch(so it cant be spamed in a melee fight) with anything over max being given as overheal. It could be medium packs with we keep the defualt gains or small if we use your idea of gaining organs
Edit: should specify I didn't mean he should eat it. I was thinking of him injecting himself like a blood transfusion.
Cannibal Medic
@@UNALLOYEDSLOPcannibalism wouldn't be medic's worst crime
@@UNALLOYEDSLOPI mean the flesh to heal his teammates had to come from somewhere
Should just let you throw a medium health kit on a half second delay. 1 kit for each hit.
If the medic is in a fist fight then he’s in fucking trouble. Fish hit the nail on the head with Medic ganking; you gotta kill the fucker fast, he’s got regen. There’s no chipping a medic to death, he doesn’t care. Even if he’s got a 50% hp kit in his shoe, he’s still going to eat it to the soldier.
I would like to take a moment to acknowledge how in-character it would be for medic to have an organ speared on a needle and jamming said organ into someone else as a curative measure.
I did a few tests with the Vita-Saw and found some trivial downsides and upsides. If you hit an ubered enemy, you still get an organ, and if you get killed by an eyelander demo or air strike soldier your organ amount gets added to their head/kill count.
Since these are per hit instead of per kill, that would make this the best weapon for head farming shenanigans with a friend on the other team
That is such a stupid downside despite making total sense but its so stupid to nerf an already bad weapon like this even if neash the enemy demoknight and airstrike soldier already 2 classes that can and are encourged to dive bomb a medic have even more of a reason to
The best part about the Vita-Saw (At least to me) is that it allows you to *tactically killbind.* Like, you're in the middle of an Ubercharge, you have a few organs stored, and an enemy combo shows up that is basically guaranteed to kill you once your Uber wears off, you can press your killbind to die with Uber remaining and therefore get it back when you respawn, instead of the Uber wearing off and *then* you die.
Ok, this sounds very fun for all people involved:
>You uber your pocket with crits
>Enemy medic pop stock uber to counter push
>"Guess I'll die" *killbinds*
>"Wtf was that?!" - enemy team
>"Wtf was that?!" - your pocket
@@NotAGingerISwear And further chaos ensues once you return to the front.
Wow.
Now Medic can roleplay as the most famous painter of his own nation.
*Has the Overdose to run back to the team faster rinse and repeat problem Blu team?*
@@citrusorange794 Yep.
Finally, somebody who doesn't just brainlessly repeat the "It rewards you for dying" line and then just not even consider the situations Medic finds himself in.
honestly the Vita saw is weird because by all intents and purposes , in an organized play enviroment, its a seriously busted weapon on the sole fact that using it basically forces the enemy medic to use it aswell(sure the ubersaw is still the better weapon, but in a game where both teams are playing around you having the ability ot retain SOMe uber on death makes tracking said uber rougher ot get right.).
The Vita Saw is banned in competitive for that sole reason
While I like the upside, it really feels like the Ubersaw and the Vita Saw should swap downsides.
Well of course peoooe are just saying that, since when have TF2 fans sat down and thought about something
“It rewards you for dying”
Pardon me, what reward? Oh, some Uber retention, yeah that’s not called a reward. If you didn’t die you would have ALL your Uber. Instead, it lowers the punishment of some frenchie appearing behind you ready to take your life
@@Halevoltit's not banned
other saws' taunts: _have a fine, violing like tune-
vita saw: *_FULL ON GUITAR SOUND_*
I feel like if you swap the Ubersaw and Vitasaw's downsides they become a lot more balanced. The Ubersaw makes you squishier in exchange for the immense defensive benefits of gaining more Uber (except with the Kritzkrieg), and the Vitasaw has slower swingspeed to stop you farming organs.
Yeah but I don't think that will change much. As was discussed in the video, the health threshold is so non existent that it might as well not be there at all.
@@eggroll5510 Maybe increase the penalty in that case. I'm also not so sure the 10 health is insignificant as Fish makes it out to be.
@@yakobsoulstorm5187Yeah, you need as much health as you can get
That's what TF2 Classic does. The Überspritze is a Medic melee that gives 25% ÜberCharge on hit but -10 health on wearer.
@@TJ-hg6op Especially as Medic. Even though it might not seem like much, being able to tank just a little bit more damage can let you stay on the frontlines longer to provide healing and allow your team to kill whoever's attacking.
My "favorite" thing about the vita-saw is the insane interaction between the kill/head/organ counters on this weapon and the Bazaar Bargain/Eyelander/Air Strike. If an enemy kills you with one of these weapons, they get a number of heads/kills equal to ALL the organs you had. Of course, this works in reverse, but 4 more heads on an Eyelander demo could be WAY more useful than 4 more organs on a Vita Saw medic.
This is why the variable for heads and organs should be differ things and named as the counters in the code so they only find bonuses of the same type and add those, this is like if a demoknight killing an engineer gave one head for each metal he had and also for each Fronteir Justice crit as well because why not? Or like a diamondback spy sapping a sentry and getting all the crits that were supposed to go to the engineers fronteir justice, it just makes no sense .
3:11 you can't just gloss over that amazing combo of sniper stunning the pyro, and you saving the pyro. what a crazy turn of events.
'your teammates are going to have your back" I don't know how you find teammates that give a portion of a shit.
Or them gladly handing your life to your enemy as a distraction
2:20 wait did you... did you just edgebug as medic with the quickfix.... That's badass
yeah edging is badass
@@lamartina-dw9mc ong
You mean Margaret garden
I am so sad that nobody else wants to play medic; I've always loved being right behind the action while supporting others doing the fighting. The thank you I'm given (even more so with voice chat) fills me with such happiness that nothing else in the game really can.
May be a bit weird but hey, when the team needs a medic, better one who enjoys it.
I feel the same way honestly. Maybe medic isn't too versatile, nor too capable in 1-on-1 combat, but I find him very fun and I love the thanks it gets.
@@vulturesalesman Indeed. He's mostly one-note, but if you can enjoy that loop of healing and surviving it's fun.
I do enjoy playing as Medic cause it's nice to help out. Allthough sometimes I just want to say screw it and play for my own sake as Pyro or Spy, not caring if I lose the game because of it.
Honestly same, Medic has always been a satisfying class to play for me, despite the fact that some people say he’s pretty simple mechanically.
Technically he’s not, and a lot of game sense is required to play him effectively, but you guys know that.
Nothing will be quite as nice as saving a teammate’s life with a crossbow shot or saving a scout from burning to death. (At least to me.)
That’s why I play engineer. I get to stay back and support sometimes, and other times I’m in the midst of the fight.
There is also another factor to the vita saw that I think is worth mentioning, if you die at a bad time during the match, you could either respawn ahead of your team or respawn after your entire team did, especielly on defense, leaving you unable to start building uber, so conserving some from your previous life can actually help a little, other than that great video fish.
I have a mindset: "Playing the meta is boring". That's why I prefer using weird or rarely used playstyles or weapons, so when I tried the vita-saw my thoughts were "yeah, it exists", it's boring but not useless, so the healing effect and crits you propose are really interesting and give medic a more aggressive playstyle, as well as make it a side grade to the Amputator itself. With the Kritzkrieg or the Quick-Fix, this version would be able to roll entire teams.
And using the overdose for the speed boost advantage if organs have been harvested.
It's crazy how much use we got to see of this thing on stream.
"A lot of random crits" is a good way to describe how Medic gets killed *and* gets kills
3:13 was fucking crazy moment
genuinely genius but also dumb
0:20 I love playing medic, but... Yeah, you're right about me never wanting to get off of the cross bow and ubersaw unless I'm just memeing with battle medic.
A situation a lot of people don't consider is using the Vita-Saw in is when you're using a non-invincibility Medi-Gun, especially the Vaccinator and the Kritzkrieg. Both have Uber gain upsides that grant more freedom beyond needing to run the Ubersaw, and the Uber granted on-hit in a last stand situation would have been worthless anyway. Instead, what you get is a boost when you respawn that assists in what those two Medi-Guns are good for in the first place: applying pressure. Even retaining 30% Uber with the Kritz is almost 10 seconds off your next pop that would have been wasted if you were running the Ubersaw.
2:50, this has got to be one of my most favorite gags in the entirety of Bad Weapon Academy, and I have no idea why or how.
Also, if I remember correctly and according to an old version of Fawful's Minion's top ten worst weapons, there was a previous version of the Vita-Saw that just gave you a straight up a Fifth of their Uber every single time they died. Mind you, this stupid thing also still gave you 10 less health. So, basically, before the rework, Medics were rewarded for dying, just for having this weapon I think out. So, all you needed to do was switch to this weapon the second you died, and instead of losing Uber, you gained Uber. You gotta love Valve sometimes.
These days with how good enemy players can be, I've found myself using solemn vow far more often than the ubersaw. Like you said with the vita saw, it encourages aggressive play to make use of its upside, which can get you killed. Gaining 25 uber doesnt mean much if you die 1 second later and lose it. The solemn vow however, has been really great for me to be able to have perfect knowledge on when to retreat and when to actually stand my ground as medic. There have been plenty of moments of being chased down by a scout or a powerclass with less than 15 health because they are so desperate for the kill, and then I shoot once in their direction and kill them.
I was thinking each organ could grant 1 additional health regeneration per second on the user, stacking up to like, IDK, 5 or 6.
Y'know I must admit the WR change to the vitasaw does seem a lot more multidimensional as (for reference) I play tc2 where the vitasaw was completely reworked and reskined to take teeth (roblox moderation stuff) and also boost Uber duration for 1 second per tooth up to 5. Love using it especially since it has a dmg penalty making more potential for more teeth but I always did have the problem that you had to manage it and Uber if you wanted to effectively use it.
Im not sure why but the idea of harvesting teeth feels a little more disturbing to me than harvesting organs, maybe caus it feels a little less cartoony somehow? Not entirely sure really
But yeah, being able to extend your uber as reward for risky melee attacks does seem like a really cool rebalance actually
not trusting tc2 rebalances when they made market gardener do 98 damage at one point
@@AliDoesntWorkwhat the fuck
@@AliDoesntWorkfucked up
Using stored crits (like the diamondback but limited to melee) would make a lot more sense as a last resort option than it's current base design. I think adding healing to it's capabilities would be overkill but it's clearly worked on your server so there's merit to that path as well
Or maybe you could pick your benefit like a mix between the choosing a single target buffing Buff Banner and the Vaccinator, all in exchange for a certain number of organs. Like 3 organs for healing, 5 organs for mini-crits, and 10 organs for something really good or something else, like maybe a faster heal crit charge up or a temporary faster Uber Charge rate or something like that.
2:30 Sounds like the absolute worst way to use the Vita-Saw lmao
I think you absolutely nail the point of the vita.
It's not a run into the enemy and hope for the best (that's the uber saws point).
It's to rewad you for surviving because as you said the best way to kill medic is to one shot them witch means it doesn't have a negative effect or if someone does try to rush you you can use the vita and surviving your assassination attempt allows for even more benefit.
I think it's even kinda good it's just that people misunderstand it and medic having the skilless ubersaw but I do agree a rework would be nice.
Loving the videos talking about the best items for a class or perceived worst. I will watch every weapon discussion from you
10:16 Can I guess which weapon? Bozar?
11:20 "if organs were some kind of consumable" well THAT conjured up some horribly unpleasant but somehow fitting images in my mind!
Total redesign idea. On kill: gain the effects of your own ubercharge for 2.5 seconds. Quick fix equip? Acts as a quick heal. Stock? Short invincibility. Kritzkreig? Go for a chain kill.
This effect would be far better as a cross bow replacement. Give up ranged healing for a bit of tick damage and a ability to preserve your uber. And it gets medics to use the gun in there kit for damage.
3:12 Props to that Sniper for stopping the Uber for a bit with that big brain move
Insane play from the sniper at 3:13 trying to stun lock the pyro with his taunt kill
10:22
He was healing me! :D
The funny thing is that it didn't work like that before.
Before the organ farming, the Vita Saw only served to help you keep 20 of uber period when you die at expenses of 10 base HP.
It was made to be less of a winning tool and more like a way to cushion your death and respawn from the get go.
i can see why they nerfed it though because 10 max health is basically nothing and retaining uber on death is kind of a big deal
it being a passive before is why it was nerfed
Somehow the redesign of the Vita-Saw is even worse than the original Vita-Saw design (where the Vita-Saw's upside was also passive). Requiring the upside only come into play when you die has always been a terrible design (because while you will die at some point no matter your class, you should not be banking on that to gain an advantage from your weapon). It's stat should be a general Medic stat you could purchase in MvM, not a weapon stat.
Personally, I'd redesign it to be a self-only healing equivalent to the Ubersaw (and the Ubersaw should be redesigned to make you more fragile).
How I'd do it:
=Vita-Saw:
+25 Max health on wearer (medic max health increased to 175)
+1 health regenerated per second on wearer
+On Hit: +25 health (can overheal)
+Taunt Kill: +150% max health (can overheal)
-25% shorter ubercharge (Ubercharge lasts 6 seconds instead of 8 seconds) [or] -50% slower ubercharge rate (stock medigun would take about 60 seconds to 120 seconds to charge instead of its usual 40 to 80 seconds to charge)
=Ubersaw:
+On Hit: +25% ubercharge added
+Up to 1% ubercharge generated per second on wearer (charge rate drops the longer the player goes without being damaged)
+Taunt Kill: +100% ubercharge added
-25 Max health on wearer (medic max health decreased to 125)
These make the weapons better balanced:
* Vita-Saw allows the medic to survive more punishment, possibly getting off a charge or escaping a situation they'd have otherwise died in
* Ubersaw now makes the medic much easier to kill, making it harder to actually reach 100% uber
---
As for your redesign of the Vita-Saw: I'd rather that be a new weapon entirely, rather than a Vita-Saw redesign.
The vita-saw could be like the medi version of the eyelander. Maybe each organ could add an extra point of HP regeneration or a larger buff if it was changed to collect organs on melee kill
Funny enough the using the organs to heal is also a bioshock reference **Since in that game one skull lets you take spider splicers organs to use as a medkit!** __So really it’s odd they didn’t just let you heal with them or keep them for the Uber effect__
As a medic main, I really want to use the vita-saw just to be different (and because it looks cool with a cool taunt sound), but the weapon's stats are so strange. -10HP feels like it shouldn't be much, but I've lived plenty of instances in single digit health (and afterburn). I love the organ idea as an insurance or last resort for when you die, but against a competent team, I don't think you'll ever be able to whack people with it. I never got far in Bioshock, so idk how faithful it is to an ADAM Harvester.
I can't speak against being an aggressive medic because I use the Solemn Vow to know my enemies HP (and occasionally uber) and if I stand a chance killing them with a melee attack or two (or a crossbow from a distance). Maybe I'll give it a try at some point...
I think the dream of every Medic player is to let go off the meta.
This is the poster child for "don't always balance everything around top players". The pre-nerf version gave you a passive retention of up to 20% uber, something that rewarded you for playing medic "correctly" as you could out-uber any other medic if your team didn't feed ubersaw hits. This is a mild edge for skilled medics in virtually any arena … except competitive 6v6, where it was a blatant upgrade and was summarily banned. The current version is more "competitive" but for the vast majority of players it's just a bad ubersaw and sees no play instead of some play
I think its most useful on the kritzkieg where you're likely to be playing more aggressive anyways, and popping uber doesnt provide you with ANY benefits, so it makes sense to just bank some uber for later in case you die then the small chance you get more uber and get back to friendly lines.
Ok I was just playing subnautica so hearing you use the games ost really made my day, thank you for that. Love your videos as always
3:20 WTF IS THAT UNUSUAL EFFECT?! We can see the spy from much much further away when he decloaks lmao
What I think could be a neat change is if the number of organs you get can increase your max health that life. So keep the health penalty (maybe even increase it to -15), and then each organ gives you +5 max health. I'd cap it out at 10 organs worth of buffs, so you could get to 185-enough to be a tough one to kill, but still within range of two pipes or rockets. Once you die you lose them all, so you're back to being squishy.
Could be extra fun if the current mechanic is retained, the more the medic has to defend himself at close range the formidable he gets.
You're riding the Ubersaw way too hard in this one. The Amputator is a great alternative, especially if you're trying to stay alive with a dubiously reliable team. I couldn't tell you how many times it saved me from afterburn damage in my 65+ hours of playing Medic.
Same w solemn vow, I've gotten many picks w the bow by seeing enemies at low hp
@@brisky3252It's a pretty cool upside. Maybe the 2nd most valuable asset for Spy, who has it all the time. Allows Spy to, well, spy on enemies more effectively.
Less riding the ubersaw and more under valuing the other weapons because the ubersaw is the best option but the amputatour and the solemn vow do have there place and use
Nah ubersaw better in every situation all the time
If you have a "dubiously reliable team," then chances are A) you've lost the match already, or B) you would get more mileage out of switching to a more offensive class and stomping the other team if they are similarly "dubiously reliable."
Okay, so I actually get a lot of scenarios where I really wish I had the amputator equipped. the amount of healing it can poop out in one go is mad. Really helps get your team back in order quick and make the most of enemy respawn timers after a big punch up.
I love how medic is the only class that has a defined meta.
The others you can get away with using other weapons and have them be viable. But medic it's, Ubersaw and Crossbow.
what if the vitasaw, along with the uber retaining gimmick, you can also use organs ("reload" button, R for most people) during an ubercharge (only while using an ubercharge) to extend/refill the duration by a set amount, say +10~15% duration per organ depending on balance, with a similar max organs used during an uber being 3 or 4 (else the ubercharrge would be effectively infinite if you had enough organs)
As someone who enjoys making use of the bad weapons, I don't touch this thing. Vaccinator, Overdose and Amputator. Hate me all you want.
man the subnautica OST in the background, noice
12:25
The Amputator is not that bad, I might even go as far as calling it Medic's second best option. Picture this: Your team is badly injured after a push and healing them with the Medi-Gun one by one would take a long time, so you make yourself defenseless for 3 secounds, but get the majority of your teammates back to full HP.
This situation happens quite often, and because it's a 12v12 server, your team will most likely be around you while you are taunting to protect you.
Sure, the damage penalty can screw you over, but the Ubersaw has taught most medics bad habits. For Instance, running in aggressively when an enemy is low oh health, always engaging with Spies at melee distance, etc.
As a Medic, you should not take such risks in the first place. You should only use your melee as a last resort, but this happens quite rarely when you are playing him right and staying with your team. And in situations where you *HAVE TO* saw off some limbs, the damage penalty is not that severe.
Furthermore, the other options don't give as much utility. The Solemn Vow lets you see the health of enemies, but it can bait you into a false sense of security when seeing a low-health target. The Vita-Saw only benefits you after death, and as a Medic you should keep your deaths to a minimum. And lastly the Bonesaw is just a stock melee weapon, so it's only useful in self defense.
In conclusion, I really believe that the pros outweigh the cons and that the Amputator overshadows every other option but the Ubersaw.
On the topic of why use anything other than ubersaw:
I will say that the solumn vow is underatted among the casual community. But it is actually pretty good albeit less useful than it is in a competitive setting. I love picking off enemies that i know are low hp with the crusader’s crossbow.
the best choice if you don’t want to risk your life for 25% uber.
The vita saw has become quite literally my favorite item on the rebalance server, it's great for prepping heavies and soldiers and countering reduced healing from combat, and the laughs from utterly screwing over unsuspecting spies and scouts are priceless.
Personally I don't touch the thing. -10 HP off the class whose survivability is paramount is too much for me. Damage thresholds be damned, in a game with afterburn, bleed, chip damage, sentry guns, mini-sentry guns, and random shotgun pellets dealing 3 damage from across the map, I need every bit of HP that I can get. -10 HP also means -5 overheal if you're working with a second Medic, and fewer HP regained from health packs.
Sorry but I'll stick to Ubersaw if I'm feeling spicy and Amputator if I'm not.
As a maggot at aiming since i don't play fps or pc games very often only playing tf2 every here and there, Medic's overdose is a better choice for me. You gain speed with more uber, and i don't wanna die with a significant amoubt of uber. So the Overdose comes into play when it matters. Now if I was more skilled than that'd be a different story, but don't leave out the Overdose in the competition for primary slot. Noobs are a lot more handy playing Medic than any other class, so a noob primary like the overdose is perfect.
Born to Shit is the most gamer heavy I've ever seen
Commenting on 12:25 As an avid Amputator user the trick to using it is to to use it when you don't want your teammates to know that they're actively being healed.
Teammates who are being healed and see that there's a medic healing them with the little icon that shows your uber tend to overestimate their survivability and recklessly peak which means even though there's a lot of teammates around you which you could heal up normally with the medigun as soon as you start healing them they immediately peak and get themselves more injured which results in more injured people to heal and more teammates dying like idiots when you're just trying to top them off.
It also seems to not be negatively effected as harshly by crit heals as mediguns as it feels like people who are under direct fire get topped off really quickly with it so you should only ever need to use the taunt once at a time.
However, I will say that The Amputator actually gets pretty heavily invalidated by the Crusader's crossbow so you shouldn't ever need to use the Amputator if you're using the crossbow. Which is bad since the Crossbow is really good but it's also kind of good since it means it performs well when your team's lost their Crusader's Crossbow privileges because they absolutely suck at keeping you alive.
It's funny that the Amputator's best use case is employing psychological warfare against your own team to protect them from their own stupidity when you're already having to gimp your team's success chances to keep yourself alive because of said team's stupidity.
And I guess the extra health regeneration helps in a pinch but it only really comes up when you're walking to the front line or back to your team after surviving an ambush since you're going to be using the syringe gun in said ambush. Additionally the syringe gun being a self defense weapon means that it's actually okay at mediating the Amputator's lower melee damage weakness. Just remember that the syringe gun only deal any reasonable amount of damage when backpedaling against an enemy chasing you.
"The design of the game is such that a lot of your teammates are going to have your back."
In an ideal world that should be true; but you forget how deep incompetence can go in this game.
That is not incompetence. Just casual play.
People focus too much on winning
Here’s an idea. Instead of saving a percentage of Uber on death, how about the more organs you have the longer your Uber lasts.
Nice to see a video that covers that the Kritz and Vita work decently together. Nothing like popping only to immediately get crocketed or backstabbed or headshot with 92% of your charge left. This is also pretty important for those situations where you are caught out and are going to die guaranteed regardless of if you had the Ubersaw equipped or not, like when you have 37% charge on Stock and your Soldier just got random critted by a pill. Even if you had something 80% charge, and getting a swing off would let you pop to save your life, the only thing that really accomplishes in 90% of situations is _maybe_ skipping your respawn timer, if you are close enough to your team to recover before your Uber wears off. That's not happening with Kritz, going for risky Ubersaw swings is the least beneficial on that particular Medigun because of that lack of defensive utility it's Uber provides, you'd much rather be able to respawn with 30% charge in those situations over 0% and the -10 health, like you said in the video, makes such little difference in your survival rate that you'd never really notice, and would much rather have the boon of potentially respawning with 60% charge after you just got killed by a fair and balanced game mechanic through no fault of your own. Ubersaw gives you lots of dopamine when used in its ideal situation as Stock is better than Kritz in most situations, whereas the Vitasaw helps prevent migraines when you feel like running Kritz but want to do a little risk aversion.
> "What the hell am l supposed to do with 7 organs when l only need 4?"
Well, by that same logic, what the hell is an eyelander demo or a bazaar sniper supposed to do with 12 heads when they only need 4, and why didn't you make something similar on your servers for those?
Just accept the ever-ludicrously increasing amount of organs the same way you accept the ever-ludicrously increasing amount of heads for the other body parts-collecting weapons.
I think it should lower the total amount of Uber needed. So you kill an enemy and for that life you only need 75% of a full Uber
11:25 My thoughts exactly, I want the organs to heal you instead of being an uber saver, an organ could give the medic back 25 Hp and he can still move while healing himself, but at the cost of 20% damage penalty and slower swing speed.
11:30
My idea exactly, but I originally invisioned it as a wearable secondary for heavy but this works too
Hearing Subnautica Music at the start and end of the video is the part that interested me most.
What if they made it so healthpacks (and lunchbox items) heal you more depending on how many organs you have? It would still have the uber retaining effect, but now you would get a benefit where you'll get (let's say) 25% more health from health kits for each organ you have. That way you would get a benefit from going over 4 organs. Imagine any healthpack or heavy throwable healing you to full. Sounds pretty cool and it would be very useful for medic. It would be a nice way to partially counteract the -10 hp downside.
That is prehaps the best re balance idea I have seen for this, it would make it about retaining uber and survivablity in the face of large numbers of close up fights.
Should ubersaw be nerfed/reworked?
Like not giving you uber for hits, but gaining bonus damage depending on the amount of uber you have (up to double damage)
Honestly, I think the old Vita-Saw (with it saving 10% Uber passively without having to harvest organs) was more interesting, at least in how the community reacted to it. It was honestly a good case as how different the game was between casual and competitive, a weapon that's near useless in one but downright broken in another.
They should just swap the downside of the uber and vitasaw. It makes the uber saw less OP and the Vitasaw less bad.
I rarely ever have a need to be in melee range, especially when I'm near my pocket, so the upside is literally useless to me with a pretty big downside. I've survived with 10 or less health so many times I can't give that up for the potential of hitting someone with it to save a little bit of Uber
We got a Gen. Buttnaked reference y’all
Long nose 0:14 no wonder when it came alive it screamed
I love playing with the vita-saw, I think because I loved the old version of it and it keeps me connected to it
Each organ should be an extra point of passive healing per second and a 3% increase to max hp - on top of current stats.
Medic should have a permanent Uber effect on him at max stats, that goes away any time he pulls out his healing gun.
It isnt super effective but it is fun, I use the Overdose, usually quickfix but regular uber and vacc work too, and the vita as a get ubetcharge from healing, then use the over dose speed to run around and be a rat and use the vita to keep uber on inevitable death to get back to full overdose speed faster
0:24 the classic Medic who is a slave to Ṫ̵̨͎͉̱̞͙̼̠̘̯̞̀͑̃̋̀̃͗͗̕͘͝H̸̨̺̖̟̖̗̳͔̖͐͛͌̚̕͝E̷̡̧̞̗̳̱̲̙͕̙͂̔̌͊̆̎͗́͆̈ ̶̛̞̥͍̲̠͓̫͔͉͇̺͂́̾̿́͒̒̽͑͜͜͠M̴̛̤͔̳͉̯̹̹̒͐͗̽̀̊̓̃̄̎̂͆͘͝Ȩ̴̼̥͙͈̫͈̾̅́̇́̊̐̎̒̔̅̿̀̊̀͊T̷̢̨̡̞̟̺̩̞͉̤̲̟̥̪̤̥̟̠͠Ā̵̜̜̣̦̺́́̊͌̈͒͊̃̿̂̂͘͝͝
8:08 tf2 in a shellnut is a timeless classic
i used to be a hardcore vita-saw user, back when you didnt have to hit anyone with it and you'd always keep 20% making it an absolute game changer where you never had to risk your life and just got free uber every respawn
Subnautica music let's go!
I think a possibly interesting way vita saw could work is that for each organ you have, your uber lasts slightly longer
The Subnautica OST is a choice
As a medic main and professional masochist I can confirm the Vita-saw is garbage. You get less health from health packs,if a friendly medic overheals you yiu get less of of and it lasts shorter,surfs arent as viabel from expolsives becasue you lack the health to take the dmg and survive the fall dmg. Its not even good for new medics,becasue they are going to learn that dying as medic isen't that big of a deal.When you should avoid dying as much as possibel. Its a bad wepon and it promotes even worse gamesense.
I do have a reason not to use the Ubersaw, because it is overrated and boring.
I use stock Bonesaw for the funny, and the Amputator is more valuable than you think, especially on chokepoints.
Honestly I don't enjoy using the crossbow as medic. Doesn't suit the kind of playstyle I do. I more or less just prefer spraying and praying with the syringe guns because it's more funny.
I feel like the Vita-saw would become a very solid option, compared to the Ubersaw, with a couple of changes. Now mind you, I'm not too sure what changes it could have, but maybe each organ could also heal you when picked up. Alternatively, keeping with that idea, what if your organ count impacted your health regeneration (up to a certain point ofc).
I also like the idea of being able to generate organs without having to melee an enemy. Perhaps they could make it so your primary weapons can also make organs using a damage meter system, generating an organ with a primary weapon when it is full, consuming the meter.
I actually really like the BWR version, and I was actually going to suggest that as well. But some small change I'd like to propose maybe for another workaround? What if the Vita-Saw just converted organs to health drops? With a slightly reduced healing rate from your medigun as a downside? 1-3 are small health kits, where as 4-6 are medium, and 7+ are full health kits? I do feel the full health could be a bit dangerous, but at the same time, getting 7+ organs might just be rare enough to where its a massive reward for playing so well.
This video changed my perspective as a medic main.
Firstly i realized that vac and the vita saw would be a disgusting combo actually
Then also, if you are constantly rolling an enemy team and never dying, you can rack up single swings on light classes and by the time you finally die youll come back with another sudden uber they arent expecting. It actually makes sense!
This is a new way for me to play, thank you!
As simple as it was, I miss the old Vita Saw
Yea you only got to keep like 9% Uber on death, but you didn't have to work for it either. Despite how small 9% was it made a leading difference in my eyes.
I'll be real real with any of the Bonesaws Medic has I wasn't actively try to hit anyone with it unless they came up to me, but at that point it was life or death. Equipping the old Vita-Saw was pretty much just passive in my eyes as I only needed to fill essentially 90 Uber instead.
Having not played TF2 for 8 years, when finally able to come back to it I was pretty disappointed on the new Vita Saw changes and now just stick to Uber Saw. To me what was once an alternative weapon to an already stale class in meta became more stale
It was changed because of competitive meta. A medic not using vita saw in 6s was putting itself at disadvantage
Possible rework:
Instead of giving uber back on death, organs let you start out on higher uber percentages (maybe like, 5 percent per organ or somethin idk i don't do balance) after you finish the charge, but are destroyed at the same time so it's not a permanent snowball that slowly results in infinite uber
The last thing I was expecting in a UA-cam video about TF2 released in the year of our lord 2024 was a General Buttnaked reference
i play with the vita saw cuz i dont trust my team for a quarter of a second and id rather be able to cash in my hits so i still have some uber for the next fight even if i die. the minus 10 health is barely anything and doesnt change any important thresholds, and it synergises incredibly well with the overdose since if you need to get back to the front lines quickly you can do it that much faster.
"Medic is the class that everyone wants on their team, but no one wants to play."
As a medic main, that saying has always unironically annoyed me a bit.
What's so ironic about this?
The subnautica music makes me so happy. I heard "into the unknown" and I was instantly hooked
I use the amputator a lot, for the group heal ability. It depends if i need to use melee a lot or not whether i use ubersaw instead.
How about making it all the upsides still apply but after you pop Uber you retain some ubercharge based on your number of organs you have
If you as a medic are that scared/concerned about enemy spies and snipers (sniper especially), running the vita-saw isn't that bad of an idea if you believe you'll be dropping uber to them a lot
One thing I could think of for those extra organs is allowing them to be used in place of Übercharge... Like if you have 6 or 7 Organs, you could pop a Über using them.