Edit: I made a cut around the 11 minute mark of this video because it was getting flagged. You'll know it when you see it. Gents I'm so conflicted about this video. I've basically spent the last 3 weeks researching S.A. scenes, talking about S.A., playing S.A scenes and editing S.A. I'm burnt out on this topic but I still a lot more I could talk about but let's start with changes I had to make to this video. 1. This video got flagged and age restricted multiple times and UA-cam was being vague about why its being flagged so I had to record parts of the video to censor myself more l. This was probably the most frustrating part of making this. 2. After watching a video by Drew Good enough called Everybody wants to waste your time and in the video he talks about some content being inflated to make the video as long as possible. I do not think I did this on purpose but I think my video could be condensed down to make a better and more concise video. So here's some the content that was taken out I shortened the cultural sensitivity section. I think this section is important because it defines why this a topic even worth covering but I don't talk about any game until I get to the tomb raider segment which can be jarring for me to only start talking about video games about 7 minutes into the video. So I cut down the part before the tomb raider discussion. 3. What is now the heavy rain section used to be the narrative implementation section. For everyone of Madisons weirdly written scenes I talked about a topic and another female character. For sleepless nights I talked about sexualisation and how madison is a “sexy” plot device. Then I compared her to Tifa who is sexualised but still has a personality. For the doc chapter I talked about how villains do bad things and S.A. can be one of those things. But the way it's handled in heavy makes it seem like shallow shock value nonsense. Then I compared it to the last of us but this became its own section. This kinda why I sort of jump from the doc to s*xy girl without discussing it further. And lastly the s*xy girl chapter I used to talk about the femme fatale archetype and compared Madison to Ada Wong and Bayonetta. All of these discussions were meant to show how you don't need to use S.A. as a clutch for writing about women's struggles and character development. But I felt this ultimately became about “Writing women in games”. So I removed all of it but this still leaves this section feeling a bit longer than it should. 4. I removed a kind of bonus section where I talked about Male S.A. in games. We all know about the complicated way Male S.A. is treated in media , basically a joke. I found examples of the tired rape jokes we see in TV and film. This was the intro then I transitioned into more serious discussions: Far Cry 3(Citra SAing Jason and Buck SAing Keith), F.E.A.R. (ALMA!?) and the swamp scene from RDR2. This I mostly removed because I want to cook on it more and if I made it its own video about Male S.A. in media then I can talk about Denji(CSM) which would completely elevate the topic. This original video had about a 50 minute runtime. Also feel free to drop your opinion on this video as it. I approached this video from my experiences and understanding so there might be some oversights. One problem I did catch is the fact that my pronunciation is a bit spotty in some parts. I'm working to improve this for future videos and I provided the Closed Captions for this video but I initially uploaded the wrong file and yt says it will take a bit for it to update to the new one.
If you're interested in looking into male S.A. in media, there's a channel called Pop Culture Detective thag has multiple GREAT videos on the subject, I really recommend them. He only focuses on film and TV though, so you'd have plenty of room to expand on them by including games.
@@godzillazfriction Instead of pointless trash talking, why don't you provide some constructive criticism? What would you like to see in this type of video? What should he have expanded upon? Where exactly does he fall short?
yes yess yesss... gotta love the 'male' sa & separate as it's own entity... funny how ppl talk & criticise 'exploitation'. already giving amazing examples for the (preassumed) well-worthy (sarcasm) [INSERT] criticism of 'male' sa such as Jason Brody & yada-yada.
@@comradecatbug5289enough with the [INSERT] criticism... there's no point in it. just stating what it is. if you want more elaboration from me then check another comment thread.
Mouthwashing is another game that handles SA extremely well. Jimmys assault of Anya is never outright said but most definitely canon when you read between the lines. Anya’s difference in attitude between Curly and Jimmy is like night and day. I’m probably not putting it the best but Mouthwashing has seriously got to be one of my favorite games ever created
@@not_456I think it’s a masterpiece tbh. Especially with how it deals with Anya’s SA and the subtle but coherent message of listening to victims and how their voice is often drowned out by others(such as the perpetrator).
@@not_456 its absolutely fucking amazing. its well worth you playing and well worth a video. It's only 2 hours. SERIOUSLY consider it. Honestly my game of the year.
Anya's SA being something the perpetrator barely acknowledges or feels remorse for but is also blatantly the inciting incident for everything that happens after is also a big plus. Not to mention great implied commentary on enablers and how even with the best of intentions, inaction out of favouring someone can still cause adverse effects across the board.
As a victim of S.A. and avid fan of Fear and Hunger, I don't get easily triggered by these topics, in videogames at least, but it still makes me uncomfortable in cases like Heavy Rain , where it feels like S.A. even sexualized, rather than to add something to the story or complexity of the character. That's something that I love about F&H, that it's so crude in its subject matters, but all that violence and heavy topics have a meaning and purpose in the game, you're supposed to be traversing the place where evil itself resides, so of course you can expect that everything will be out to get you in various ways, including S.A. I really liked your take on this! I read the comment you pinned and I don't think that the video was vague or that it has to be more concise, it can be a heavy/complex subject so it's normal that you need to showcase various examples of it to be able to convey your point. This is the first video that I watch from you, instantly subscribed :)
Agreed, I don't dislike the subject exactly, I'll often dive into it for the catharsis even, but it pisses me off when it's used to be edgy or it's just pointless. This is a big deal, it should be treated as such, you know? Don't cheapen this shit by treating it like it's nothing. Though oddly enough fetish games like Rape Play where it's so obviously meant to be sexualized doesn't bother me, because it's honest? The purpose there is to cater to fetishists who want to play out that role - cool. I'm not gonna play it, but I'm not missing out on anything, because there's no amazing game there for me to miss out on, its entire purpose is to get people off with this specific kink and it's open and honest about it from the title to the credits. I'm far more uncomfy with stuff like Detroit: Become Human which doesn't *have* SA but does have that same "I just wanna see a pretty lady struggling against being tied up by a man she's vulnerable to" scene (from the same writer as Heavy Rain none the less) than I am with the fact that some people get off to simulated rape and make games/movies/etc. about it.
Yes There's more focus on how Angela feels and how the trauma manifests. But the monster ''abstract daddy'' and the room they are in is quite blatant in what it's trying to tell you.
@hallakazam yeah In a sense that's true plus the monsters in my opinion are apart of her human psyche so i feel like it makes sense that they say daddy because like why wouldn't you have monster about the person who did that to you but In my opinion it's still way better than them just showing you the sa silent 3 explores such theme's better than the second game which no way talks about for some reason
F&H2 actually handles SA way better and in a more nuanced way. The character of Daan is heavily implied to have been hurt by his parents in this way - they were bunnymasks, worshippers of Sylvian, and "taught him" Sylvian magic. Daan's entire story, and his moonscorched form (forms the characters take during the termina festival that represent the worst aspect of themselves, or the aspect they're most insecure or afraid of being) is pocketcat, who is a predator. His narrative is literally about the cycle of abuse.
I've seen people discusing whose story is worse, if Daan's or Levi's, but I honestly think Daan got it waaay worse... At least Levi is still young and has new chances in life.
It has nothing to do with the story and is forgotten just as abruptly as it’s introduced. Is David insensitive or just incompetent? Perhaps he’s just addicted to trying to appear profound? Problem is, he takes himself too seriously and fall flat every time.
David Cage is a hack writer and also a huge asshole. Elliot Page played one of his characters (before he transitioned) in one of Cage's games and his contract stated there would be no nude scenes. Elliot's face and body would be scanned and turned into a 3d model and animated with mocap. David Cage hired a body double and had a nude model made anyway. I just think its for his own gratification and nothing more.
@@francisco646 i... i think its both. he's insensitive bc he's into it and he's also just, like, generally incompetent when it comes to trying to write meaningful, cohesive storytelling.
If anybody wants to play fear and hunger but doesn’t want to experience the SA scenes, there is a mod that takes out only the visual r word scenes, and keeps in the mentions of it, but also there are mods that take out everything related to SA
I always wonder why that option does not exist for movies, because in my mind having to edit movies so that certain acts remain implied and not visually acted out has to be less complicated than programming all that on a game, no?
@@corneliahanimann2173mods are easy and free. All it takes is one person to dedicate some free time to upload a mod that removes scenes. Then anyone who wants the censored version can choose to do so. Movies would have to censor for mass release or have two separate screenings. Movies and tv wont censor themselves because they dont care. I mean a lot of games dont either but you cant censor a movie unless you bought it on dvd or something and they released a specific censored version but...modding just makes everything personalized.
What I’ve noticed watching people react to the winter arc in The Last of Us and David specifically is that a lot of men did not pick up on the fact he was a predator until even after the huge fight at the end. Even with the sound of his zipper, how he talks to Ellie, everything, some don’t realize it but most women playing it or watching it knew immediately because most of us had an encounter with someone who was exactly like David
never played TLOU, but have been planning to and still plan to do so, but yeesh. I knew someone like this David character who seemed normal but was actually a creep. His name was also David and I hope he rots in the slammer (if the police ever catch him) or/and hell.
@ if you watched the show it’s well done too, and my point still stands on men not really noticing he’s a creep. But yeah, hope that David you know rots in hell
@@connyaaaa5555 He’s a predator based on what? Just jumping to conclusions because the game forces you not to like him? He’s the bad guy in Joel’s story, not in David’s or his community’s story
@ he’s literally a cannibal, and in the show you can see him reach down for his pants and unzips them, and says the struggle is the best part and you’re telling me he’s not a predator?
@@connyaaaa5555 I kinda mean at the beginning, he helped get Ellie medicine, but that makes him bad apparently. Her negative attitude made him act worse later on, Joel and Ellie being untrustworthy caused it.
I think it’s interesting (in a way) that the Fear and Hunger “bleeding anus” debuff effectively never goes away (unless you become another person entirely or are healed by a god). You can’t treat it like you can regular bleeding. Feels like it’s reflecting the idea that the effects of rape never go away, it’s something you’ll have to carry with you always.
glad TLOU was mentioned, it's one of my favorite representation of SA in games. ellie was clearly affected by it later in her life and it didn't just go away after a few moments, a lot of media does that instead of showing the long term effects that it has on the brain
Just cause she's a lesbian doesn't mean it was a byproduct of her S.A. Still making lesbains characters in a post-apocalyptic world seems out of place. They even had a dude in the second game. Just be there to give the pair a baby, then later was killed and discarted like he didn't exist.
I really REALLY appreciate the part about the perfect victim and using Terry Crew's case as an example. I think we have this image that the SA victim must be a woman, usually white, young, fragile, and 'pure'. In reality, people from all demographics, all personalities, and different histories are susceptible to being harmed by another person. This video reminds me of another controversial topic of who the artist should create for, and whether its right to not allow artists write about certain topics. I think my stance of all of this aligns with my interpretation of your message (correct me if im wrong), where engaging with certain topics is fine AS LONG AS the consequences of its dissemination, if tactfully handled. I think depicting sensitive topics, especially trauma inducing events, can be so empowering for people who are living in those realities. I also think that video games and art both reflect our culture and influence it. I wont say that it is the chief cause, but people notoriously muddle fiction and fact. When combined with other cultural or social sources, video games may become this implict endorsement of horrible things. I think thats what creators should be aware of. To reiterate your point, art is received and interpretated within a culture, so the author must be mindful of the intention and execution of messages.
@@Garl_Vinlandso entertainment. I mean honestly if violence and maiming upon unwitting fictional characters is ok I really struggle to justify how SA is not in the same boat. Every single justification in the tv tropes page for "rape is a special kind of evil" kinda doesn't make sense for an out of universe perspective on the media itself. The only thing is that rape is pathetic while violence comes from power, so a rapist is realistically speaking not a cool character for any irl person. But that's not the argument, now, is it? Idk, it's strange and I don't like people's immediate and aggressive knee-jerk shut down of the topic. It feels dumb.
Poor maddison was done dirty. The nightmare could have actually been used to establish her character. Like maybe she is a survivor, and thus has frequent nightmares and insomnia. This could have lead to something. But instead its like..there. For what purpose? It seems like it was just there for shock value
Why does it need a purpose? It’s a fun action sequence that doesn’t turn out to be true, throws you off guard thinking this character can be out the game immediately but they back peddle and keep it as a fun dream, smart idea
My main grievances with Berserk is that while male characters SA is being portrayed as this impactful horrific thing most female SA is over the top and explicitly shown which is giving more shock value for the sake of shock value most of the time. That's why i respect Fear & Hunger: both men and women are SAd and it's shocking and gruesome and brutal. No character being a man or a woman won't escape this horror.
@mysteriousdestiny6672 I understand what you mean, it does sometimes feel like cascas SA affects guts more than it affects casca. I dont think Casca is completely written off though. Her reactions when she is braindead show how deeply it affects her, as well as in the most recent chapters. But as much as I love berserk, I always thought cascas condition due to SA was a lazy, unrealistic portrayal, that gave all the angst to Guts instead of showing how a good person like casca would have to deal with that. This is just my critique though, I love berserk. Guts is also a victim of SA obviously, and hw always appeared like a slave/object to Griffith also. Seeing Guts journey through that, and being a flawed, yet amazing person is powerful
I kinda agree. Guts character arc around SA is a really good portrayal of long term trauma, but a lot of the other SA involving women feels very voyeuristic. Some of the manga panels during the eclipse scene are unnecessary but i think the movie is the worst when it comes to this.
@@not_456 i think the scene with Griffith when he washes himself in the lake (after we know that he was forced into sехual relationships to fund the Hawks) is also a great representation of SA. It's subtle, deep and emotional. Yet when Charlotte is being SAd by her own father the story didn't spend a lot of time to shown her trauma even if it supposed to be also extremely tragic. Like both important men in Charlotte's life are either using (Griffith) or abusing (her father) her. And yeah, when i see women getting r*ped in most of the media i ALWAYS think "it would NEVER be depicted in THAT way if this character was male". Fear & Hunger at the other side said MAKE 👏 R*APE 👏IN 👏 DARK 👏 FANTASY 👏 EQUAL. Which is extremely bold, is uncomfortable for many people but also unapologetic and i kinda respect that.
I think that Casca’s was just way too gratuitous and long. It also seemed slightly, fetishy in the way it was drawn. It literally goes on for pages. And I know that it was more of a power dynamic with Griffith and Guts, that Griffith was just trying to hurt Guts as much as possible and show him how powerless he was. Also the fact that Griffith tried to get with her after they rescue him and she just isn’t into it at all and rejects him, his ego and confidence was just destroyed because she always looked at him like a god, so I think that was another motive. I do like that the journey afterwards is about fixing her mind and getting her to a good place again, but the actual scene itself was very uncomfortable and I’m a massive Berserk fan and think it’s one of the best stories ever written. I do agree her SA could have been done much more emphatically. It’s always been the one thing that I think could have been done differently.
I’d say with Fear and Hunger, SA is basically yet another terrible fate that can befall your character. It works because it’s another thing on a long list of ways a run can come screeching to a halt, which includes stepping on a rusty nail. The world of dungeon is a miserable place, where you will suffer and it’s just a question of how. It’s not got special attention drawn to it, it’s just a horrid reality of the world.
i think the problem most people have with it is that when you reach that point, you don't know it actually fits the world. It's so much out of nowhere when it first hits you most people (including me) just think(/thought) it's trying to be edgy.
@eadbert1935 To be fair, there's a lot of different ways to get your first game over. Mine was hanging about trying to find loot in the initial area and becoming a chew toy. I also remember finding the brain-like creature before the guards, so I sort of guessed things were off. Getting the guard fight and screen as your first encounter would be off putting, but it does show you to pick your fights. I think it's appropriate to have, though maybe not as a first encpounter .
@@eadbert1935 I mostly agree. I think the fact that that can be your first death in the game could be a serious turn off. Though, the later scene with the elite guard is way worse if you get that one, imo. Fantastic games, though, great stories.
As a survivor of multiple CSA's, F&H and Mouthwashing have become very near and dear to my heart. If you haven't already, I'd highly recommend checking out Mouthwashing. That game has one of the best SA depictions I've ever seen and all the characters are extremely well written.
Awesome vid and i totally agree! the inclusion of challenging topics isn't the issue, its how they are implemented and if its done with respect and in service of the character and story. The best depiction I've seen by far is Astarion from BG3. its all told from the perspective of the survivor focusing on the effects of abuse. not the spectacle. SA is never shown of the character, only the effects of it. and his past and any current issues never happen in a way the player cant change. in fact the only time you meet his abuser is when you have the chance to stop him. there was never a time it felt voyeuristic. it was very respectful and nuanced. Plus, you don't get many stories about male survivors and the effect it can have on a person and you also very rarely get a depiction of an imperfect victim with flaws. it all lead to SA being something the audience could truly empathise with in a way that wasn't framed to titillate or reduce the character
The usual reasons I can't stand how S.A. is portrayed in media like GOT and Witcher because it's often framed in a manner meant to be salacious rather than the brutal assault it is, or is just there as motivation for another character in the classic 'women in refrigerators' trope. I think what gets me the most is when there is a female protagonist in media that is trying to be "adult" or "grim dark" its almost already assumed that she is going to be victimized in this way, and while it may not be unrealistic depending on what kind of world the story is set in, it doesn't have to be made a meal of nor is it a "requirement" to give character to depth to often female characters. Basically saying to exist as woman you must expect to be SA-ed and get over it as quickly as the scene ends because that's just how the world works. fdAnd that's not even getting into how male victims are under represented and often written off as SA is usually seen as crime done by men to women.
That's why 40k is in my opinion one of the golden standards of 'grimdark', seeing as it created the phrase. Sure, Slaanesh exists, but a significant amount of women in 40k die horribly in less fetishy ways via the Sisters of Battle, so it evens out. Plus, I love the balls on GW to have an all female faction, and then make them arguably the most evil group in the Imperium aside from the Inquisitors.
@@isengarde9490 I only know 40k through reputation, but I know for grimdark its one of the favorites and all the usual unpleasantness discussed before is certainly an option; I've read a few RPG Horror Stories on Reddit that attest to that, but boundaries at the gametable and a GM who doesn't have fetish usually solves that. If I could just show my age here for a minute, I would say even Conan the Barbarian handles the topic better, the original Robert E. Howard short stories, films, and Conan Exiles, and the Hyborian Age from Weird Tales is some of the original grimdark. In the case of Exiles everyone regardless of gender goes through all the gore without the fetishism like 40k, and skimpy armor the doesn't actually protect anything is for all genders... in the case of the original stories the detailed, loving descriptions of Conan's chest and arms can take up a whole paragraph while the women are usually described in a sentence.
I haven't watched the Game of Thrones TV show but wow the show must have screwed up bad if that's what you got from it. In the books on-screen S.A. is a very rare occurrence and when it does happen it's definitely _not_ played for titillation. It's also never treated as a "requirement" for female character depth or as something to be expected for female characters in general. The female character writing in A Song of Ice and Fire is honestly one of its best aspects. Judging from your comment it sounds like the show really let them down. That's disappointing.
@@DreamyAileen Well when they added in SA scenes where their weren't before, I', giving the show runners the side eye for sure. Emilia Clarke has given more than a few interviews where she talks about how uncomfortable she and Jason Momoa were to the point that it felt like exploitation. But what burns me the most is that even though GOT is clearly fantasy, people will try and justify the gratuity with "it's based on the Middle Ages so that was normal" ... I can tell you as a reenactor and educator that there was nothing normal about being randomly SA-ed while going to buy eggs on Tuesday in the 14th century. If the court and church records are anything to go on, people responded to violent crime very much the same way we do now.
@@jodieg6318 On the one hand, it’s kind of nice to know that most people have always been basically decent and indignant at violent crime On the other, it’s depressing to know that things really haven’t changed 😭
I wonder if many had experiences like me where it was their first media that represent SA. I feel like it helped me understand what good representation is or what I would hope so when it comes to the topic.
Another game that fits well into this subject is Haunting Ground. You play as a young woman who is being perused constantly by people who want to rape or kill her. The atmosphere of the game makes the player really feel the impending dread and anxieties of what might happen.
(Spoiler warnings for those who don’t know the game - it’s well worth it) I also like that you had a female villain (Daniella) as well as Debi - who saw her as a big doll and playing rough is what causes a game over. You had Lorenzo who appears old (yet is still a threat) and young (attractive adult male - though I personally thought he looked a bit like a prick lol) yet his treatment wasn’t any different. He was still a monster to fear. I think a personal shock for me was being British and also scaredy like Fiona… and us both being like “DAD?!” At Ricardo (whilst he looks like her dad, he also looks a lot like mine 😭 My dad’s a good man, a bit grumpy, but a good man, so I really felt a connection to Fiona throughout. Including used to owning a German Shepard… I miss her 😢)
imo i don’t think haunting grounds is well done. pretty much the entire game is centered around fiona’s s/a and they give her very weird bonus outfits, give her no character depth and made her have very weird physics. capcom (i think that’s who made it if i remember correctly) is absolutely terrible at writing women without bringing up their looks/body. i haven’t seen it in awhile but in the ending i don’t remember her having a huge reaction? there’s no hg2 so i can’t really judge but it’s just not done well story wise
One main issue when depicting sexual assault in videogames and any media is not matter how grotesque, abominable and horrible such act is shown, there is always someone in the world who would jerk off with it. And ironically many videogames such as Heavy Rain where is supposed they take this matter seriously turns out the creator David Cage is acussed of sexual harassment, so not only they don't understand but also there are part of the problem. That's why many times the best depictions don't show the act itself, but the aftermath, where you see the pain of the victims and the hubris of the perpetrators.
@@Sagarathias I don't think it's that, more that what you choose to show is telling. If you're choosing to show a pretty lady with big boobies crying beautifully, complete with money shots, nudes, and a dude thoroughly enjoying himself, then you're not showing a crime you're showing porn, you know?
@@Sagarathias Mouthwashing proves that Show, don't tell DOES work-- but it's not the SA you have to show, it's how garbage the perpetrator is and how it harms the victim and how a "you should all get along and not rock the boat" mentality enables that kind of atrocity, as well as denial when the perpetrator is your friend leading to the victim being further hurt. Basically it's not the ACT you should show instead of telling, it's the IMPACT of it, and the truth of why it happens (it's never out of lust or sex, it's a matter of power, of control).
But why are you letting these hypothetical people live in your head rent-free? Why are the reactions of these imaginary people more important than artistic integrity? Notice how you don't do the same for violence in media. Most people wouldn't care if someone watches gratuitous gore in fiction and finds it satisfying, some would even say it's the point. This all boils down to American culture being somehow simultaneously incredibly desensitized to violence and incredibly puritanical about anything sexual. I wish this wasn't the dominant perspective that repeatedly gets regurgitated online and more people acknowledged how arbitrary this cultural double standard is.
Baldurs Gate 3 has a very sensible way of dealing with SA in Astarions story. It is not explixitly shown, but the aftermath and dealing with it, is very well done
As someone who was SA’d as a child, I always appreciate media that can portray that topic well. Pretty much all of my favorite games have topics of SA in some way. Fear and Hunger and Mouthwashing are the most obvious ones, but even games like Bloodborne and RDR2 feature it or similar topics (Arthur can get assaulted/r*ped, and Bloodborne features pretty much forcing women to give birth to eldritch horrors). Games/movies/shows that are unable to portray it well, or sexualize assault, are just games I avoid for my own safety. It’s already hard seeing it in social media and art, but to just watch it or play through it is another form of pain.
I never really thought about Heavy Rain having S.A., since it’s not like r@p£ in the most common sense of the word, but having to remove her clothing for a creep is S.A. Though I do know her character is sexually exploited, I think a lot of her character was removed (I know the first nightmare part was alluding to her time war correspondent in Iraq and I think she was caught up in something that causes her insomnia) and I think that hurts her character. I think she’s actually got more character than people give her credit for (she helpful, she’s tough, she’s resourceful), but I think she’s held back by David Cage-isms. I also know the blackouts Ethan had actually gameplay of them and not just fade to black, but they were tied into supernatural things where he and the killer (not going to spoil the game) are telepathically connected, but they took it out to keep with the more realistic to tone of the game (which is a little sad, since I think at least one blackout dealt with the kids victims of the killer and drowning, which I wish was kept in. I also know Persona 5 (Royal) has S.A. in it and it hits hard (especially inspired by true stories), but then the game sexualizes one of the characters (she’s a main party member) that was sexually harassed by the teacher who was S.A.ing other characters. And all the while, I think her story is supposed to be she’s gaining back her sexuality and empowering herself, but gets treated like a sex symbol that is known more for her beauty in the game, rather than her skill and other qualities. But I mean the game also wants us to pity a magical cat that gets pissed off when one character calls him useless unintentionally, all the while the cat calls this person stupid throughout the whole game, but only the guy should have to apologize…and don’t get me started on Kanji and Yosuke from Persona 4 (Golden)…
eroge game evenicle had the best representation of sa i ever seen. it shows despair after sa, abandonment by society, showing only a physical shelter isn't enough without therapy, aversion to intimacy and negative association with intimacy and at the end finally overcoming it. some of these elements don't get full attention they deserve but overall as a eroge it did better job then most other media out there.
ooh, your analysis about how it fits into fear & hunger is really interesting and not something i’d thought of! i had a similar experience of almost dropping the game bc of the graphic sexual assault scenes (and the more. consensual sexual horror too tbh) made me feel nauseous, but ended up sticking with the game and really liked it otherwise. i still definitely have mixed feelings about it (and am REALLY thankful those things are toned down a lot in the sequel), but i can respect it as an artistic choice speaking of the sequel-not sure if you’ve played it, but fear & hunger termina handles it in a subtler (i.e. less graphic), but still really effective way, especially with the dialogue/boss fight of one specific (returning) character. god that fight makes my skin crawl… on another note, haunting grounds is another game worth mentioning-since it’s a survival horror that’s kind of *about* the threat of sexual assault, along with general misogyny/objectification
Yeah, I remember how the creator of Heavy Rain said he wanted to bring maturity in video games but his games on what is mature are usually executed in a very shallow way. Games like Omori, Mother 3, and even Undertale - games that at first glance look like quirky fun kid's games - (and yeah, there is quirkiness to them), but they also come with some pretty heavy topics that they handle gracefully in a mature manner. Leaving something for the players to think about and maybe even cry over the story they experienced. Not sure if the guy behind Heavy Rain really pulled that off with most players.
David Cage is a pretentious blowhard who thinks including “mature themes” in a work automatically makes that work profound. I’m Toby Fox’s biggest hater and I really despise how he handled the ludonarrative themes in his games, but even I can admit he’s a more mature storyteller than a hack like Cage.
The thing about SA that most people don't think about, is that it's just another way for people to hurt each other. People have been hurting each other since the dawn of time, and we spare no one. Everyone is capable of acting of their own accord, and everyone risks being subjected to someone else's actions. It just... happens. I don't know why people do it, even being a survivor myself. I've only ever known about living with the weight of those experiences. I feel as though people fixate too much on the act itself, instead of the root of the problem. that there is some kind of fascination and intrigue at knowing what people have been subjected too. It feels as though it's perpetuating the issue, instead of addressing how this kind of trauma impacts a person. The emotions are enough to completely rewire you. I STILL feel ghosts of powerlessness, shame, and even shock. Those feelings can come from any trauma that humans are subjected to... the only difference is what we attach it to, and how we adapt afterwards. And that's the issue. It isn't an exploration of trauma for some people, it is an exploration of a compromising situation. Overall: I feel that what I've just said above has been my issue with SA in art for so long. I'm tired of hearing voyeur's ideas of exploring such an invasive trauma- that they themselves were lucky enough to never deal with.
Your video reminded me of a specific character in Skyrim. One of the characters and one the Dragonborn's possible followers who is a vampire named Serana is a victim of S.A. Later on in the story, the game acknowledges her trauma and unlike most other female followers in the game, Serana can't be married and when asked about it, instead tells the player she'd feel more comfortable remaining friends. She never explicitly states why, but you can make the connections on your own, plus some other facts about her life. I think this was a good move on Bethesda's part. It would feel crass to have Serana go through all the pain she went through and then end up accepting marriage just like that anyway. On the opposite, it reminds me of how Madison just moved on after getting kidnapped and almost possibly S.A'd. Many people feel sad they can't marry Serana but it just makes sense and is realistic writing by all means.
Played an otome game about a girl and a socially awkward guy that ended with her dressing him up as a girl and him SAing her to "show her that he's actually a man". Damn thing traumatized me.
Omg I remember that game. I played it when I was a teen and it felt so out of place, considering it seemed aimed at young girls. Granted, it was the "bad ending" but still- too much for a seemingly innocent click game.
@gracieisbored9191 Well, I played the game and chose the options that had me dress him up as a girl. At the end of it, he goes like, "You wanted to make me a girl. Now I'll show you how much of a man I am," before it's alluded to that he SAs her.
I do not know why, but I thought you would bring up the hinted S.A in Life is Strange with the character Kate Marsh and how it lead to the setup to Mark Jefferson's character. That game also has problems, but that part was not something I got first or 5th time around seeing people play the game, and it took someone making a post about it and pointing out how the only way for Kate to have a certain photo, and us to never see it for story or plot reasons could connect to Mark so much. We don't see his work fully until the MC we play has is forced to have pictures taken of in a moment of no consent. And in the game we also know he is the reason for drugs being used in the school for parties from students. As well as the game also bring up a really weird thing of Rachel who is 18-19...being in a relationship with a 32 year old guy, and the game never really addressing his age or that fact. But then again it seems that French guy's who make video games are fucking weird with young girls I swear. Another good game about the topic of S.A is silent hill 2 remake. I always had problems with the original game and how Angela was written with that past mindset of why she looks the way she dose, but the remake fixes a lot of it, and treats it a bit better to the point of being down right too emotional and real in some parts. Hats off to the people who made it, cause they fixed by biggest problem with a nearly perfect game. As for David Cage this is not his first time with this. All his games suffer from this. If a woman has short hair, and a small frame, then they will be sexuilized, and my gosh. Remember what Elliot Page went thought before pre-transition by this guy? They had a nude model be made for all shower scenes of the game, when Elliot's contract said no nude scenes regarding there body, and David was just being weird about it. And there character being put in S.A situation. Like WTH? Plus the moment where he found out that thy where trans they will keep misgendering him, and just be a dick when addressing him to other people. Oddly enough he was a HUGE fan and begged him to be apart of the game, and the moment they found it they where trans he just hated them. As if you know...he sexuilized a man, and disgusted with that, but has not come to that realization yet, and is like, "Eww, your one of those?" and with how he lives up his butt I do not think he will ever see or realize that. As a side not. Just want to say this. That one fear game was a game I remember so clearly when my old guy friend's from school would talk about it. They where shocked over how the story just...did that. Not only that but a lot of guys wondered why that was a thing or even why it was put in the game. They where not shocked. Just confused and baffled by the whole thing. Some, couldn't even understand why someone like her would S.A a guy for that reason. On the topic of S.A and how weird the game is with it. Catharine is a good Example of it! We are told by the game, shown that Vincent is being S.A by a woman who he can not remember sleeping with. and the game is like, "Well it still counts as cheating!" and what is worse about the game is that he is in this hell because he didn't 'Make a kid and settle down'. That is it. And you find out in the game he suffers from huge parent issues, cause his mom left him to run away with to be with a man, and he had to grow up fast as a result of it. He didn't eat most days, due to relying on her so much. This poor guy. Also in game you find out there is a guy who suffers so highly from woman dating him or being with him because of his own S.A regarding his mom. And when you know the context of all the guys in there, because they couldn't settle down is very gross and mishandled so poorly due to japanese views. Other then that. Glad you talked about this, cause I was oddly thinking about this with the talk of how one certain game hints at a character's S.A, and how people are being dismissive of it, since it doesn't say they where flat out. Hints from the story be damned. Same with Genji from CSM. I realize he sadly suffers from people thinking that as well.
Adding to Atlus' poor handling of SA, I love persona 5 to death but how it treats Ann Tamaki was downright disgusting. Her surviving from Kamoshidas abuse and almost losing her best friend due to the same reason was such a pivotal component to her character. Yet we see the game shamelessly giving out fan service by objectifying her (a minor too!!) and not really bringing it up later on in the game. It's honestly terrible how they treated the topic and her character. It's again this distillation of cultural views on women and sexual assault that really holds back the story and writing. I wouldn't say this is unique to Japan, especially given the examples in the video, which just shows how big of a problem this is. I really hope Atlus does better bc I do love their stories.
@@tqoth902 oh no I agree. Like i love the first dungeon on how messed up it is, but has missed potential. Like us finding out from the book puzzled what happened to her friend, "The queen" in that one room left me speechless, cause a lot of people didn't pick up on, that the room in question TELLS YOU what happened to her with the hints in the room. The MC doesn't comment on it that much, nor do the characters. It really sets in with you when the player stand in there and looks through the room in question. But then Ann getting her awakening was just a miss. I get they where trying to do it where, "She is a woman in power so sex equals power or whatever" but no. She is not Bayonetta. She is a highschooler who has never had a relationship before and never been with someone romantically so she has no idea about any of that. It really dose feel like a writer's barely disguised fetish or them not understanding how to write a female highschooler with out being weird about it.
@tqoth902 I feel like P5 has a major problem where the first arc writes checks that the rest of the story can't cash. It wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants Ann to both be obligatory Lovers Arcana fanservice, and also a survivor who gains the strength to fight her abuser. It uses Kamoshida as an example of power dynamics being taken to their worst outcome, and also has Kawakami as a romance option. I like Kawakami but you see the hypocrisy. It's like the plot forgets the specifics of what Kamoshida did, beyond him being a bad guy. And yeah, Maxi's right, too. Although I could see the idea of the outfit from the perspective of "Ann is a model, her natural beauty can be weaponised", it crumbles when you consider that Ann's still a teen. She's not a femme fatale and scenes which show her trying to tap into that come off as deliberately awkward
I never considered how Vincent himself was S.A'd in Catherine. I feel like a lot of it gets obfuscated by the story placing emphasis on how him and Katherine are in a rut, and how seemingly perfect Catherine is. I'd say Atlus has a uniquely poor take on S.A regarding male victims, given the almost constant trope of Neo Persona games (3, 4, 5) including an older teacher who falls for our invariably younger protagonist.
I think what upsets me the most is when comics, games, anime, ect. use SA as personal growth moment. When men need character growth they fight a really hard enemy. But for women it's commonly SA. Then they'll have a scene with the woman staring out into the horizon and maybe cry a little and then they brush it off like it never happened!!! That's NOT how to show a woman growing and developing as a person!
There’s a comic for the character Ghost from Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 (2009) about his life before the games. He was sent on a mission to capture a cartel leader named Manuel Roba, who also had pr*stitutes. Roba captured Ghost, tortured him, brainwashed him, and had the prostitutes SA him. Other men that Roba brainwashed also SA’d him as well. I feel like it’s rarely talked about, and I think it was maturely handled.
Yes, I really like how the comics handled it and it's kind of ridiculous to think that CoD comics were more respectful and insightful than most of depictions nowdays. And the fact that we see Simon struggle with the trauma after and has nightmares that make him feel awful is depressingly realistic. Maybe I'm biased because Simon is one of my favourite characters ever but those comics are just very well written in general, at least when it comes to exploring trauma.
Brother, i mean this, you DESERVE more subs. you hit every nail on the head of the topic and had huge nuance to your approach and discussion. we NEED more creators like you, congrats on the subs this video will inevitably bring!
Another game that I think handles the topic of s.a. (csa to be more specific) pretty well is a rpg game called dreaming mary, not many people know about it but its pretty good
@@Ricky-f1m Technically all four original games do to some degree. The first tackled forced pregnancy with Alessa and Lisa being sexually exploited by Kaufmann, the second well you know, the third was bloody open about it and the fourth did something too.
Solid video! I appreciate how in-depth you went in explaining common criticisms and concerns. Fear & Hunger broadened my horizons for how I might explore this subject matter in my own art, to vent my own frustrations and healing journey. I tied myself in knots thinking of coded ways to portray this violence, because I didn’t think there was a responsible way to portray it directly. I was afraid to look this monster in its eyes. Maybe I don’t have to be. I think one confounding factor is that different audiences require different amounts of horror to get the necessary reaction. For audiences who are safe from SA, they might require the most extreme depictions; for survivors, Ellie’s scene might spark as visceral a reaction as any scene in Fear & Hunger, because it’s able to latch onto existing traumatic memories.
Im ngl, I hate SA in games, especially when it’s just for story plot/shock factor (looking at you “horror” games) it’s no unnecessary for many stories, every time I find a normal looking game with random SA for plot I always get annoyed
@@Car-x4c murderers can also get away with it though. My point is that I don't think there's topics that should be off-limits in stories. As long as they're accurate and written in good faith, I don't see the issue with discussing SA in a game.
Rule of Rose is also a game that depicts CSA (underrated horror game but not a masterpiece, definitely has some jank but I recommend emulation if you're interested. Im not going in depth about the game or the subject matter, theres plenty of good videos on YT that do)
the line you said , "and one of them happens to me one of my favorite game" , to transition to ✨ The Last of Us ✨ .... made me tear up ! send a shiver down my spine ! oh man 😢
sorry for lowering the viewer watch statistics i really appriciate this video but can't stomach finishing it, i hope to see some of your other videos on my suggested feed :)
It is one of the main two factors that set the story in motion and is heavily pushed again and again trough symbolization. I agree that it handles it well but have to disagree on it not being one of the main focuses of the game. It is just addressed in less flashy and jarring ways, which also lead to it going over the head of a lot of people.
i feel like one of mouthwashing's main talking points WAS anya's sexual assault and the violation of her body. i feel like that was one of the main plot points of mouthwashing and how rape culture seeds itself into mundane life as a whole.
@@ter2364 I mean it's kinda second to steering into the asteroid and you don't get to connect A and B until a few hops in when you figure out why you start the game steering in the asteroid.
This was a really interesting video, media analysis for games is so important especially when it comes to darker/more complex topics. Subscribed, especially after hearing that you’ll be making a video about Dragon Age Origins next. I find myself agreeing with your thoughts, although honestly I do struggle with Fear and Hunger’s depiction. I feel torn because I do agree with what your point: I don’t think it’s just for shock value, it contributes to the overall themes and environment of the game, it speaks to the cruelty of primal human behavior or at least an aspect of it. It doesn’t glorify rape nor sexualize it, it presents it as the disgusting cruelty it is. From an artistic perspective I can see and respect that, a lot more than I can with most depictions of S.A. I suppose part of my personal issue is if it needed to specifically be shown , like do I need to see rape actually literally happen? I guess I just prefer implication or abstraction, like I’ve always preferred how SH2 did it with Angela where it was still horrific and clear what happened but it was abstract enough to where I could understand and empathize with Angela without having to see her actually get raped. Perhaps seeing it would’ve been a more visceral moment but I think that the shock possibly could’ve blunted the empathy and deep sorrow I felt, the act itself would’ve overshadowed the emotional and mental pain that act had caused. Obviously this is just my opinion, I’m not saying Fear and Hunger did it wrong, I can appreciate Fear and Hunger’s raw unflinching brutality with the subject, I just don’t entirely agree with it. Again, well done video that gave me some food for thought.
F&H overdoes it a lot in my opinion. It feels a little too edgy sometimes. F&H2 on the other hand actually has a very nuanced way of handling the topic with characters who had been through sa but it is never graphically depicted. Seems like the developers took the criticism to heart.
@@9eishitasharma501 I think there NEEDS to be some depictions that take a baseball bat full of nails and swings it at your head violently, metaphorically speaking. Kinda like how that one arc in Violence Jack also did it (Evil Town's arc) in the manga. It was brutal, it was deeply uncomfortable, and that's the point, it wants you to recoil and flinch from it because it forced you to see it. Contrast the Violence Jack manga's take with the OVA's-- OR RATHER DO NOT EVER WATCH THE OVA Evil Town UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE DISGUSTED BY THE ANIMATORS' CHOICES. The OVA basically chose to go the voyeuristic, fetishy, wtf is wrong with the animators and people who wanted it to be depicted as a normal titillating hentai scene this is literally two mass gang r**e scenes?! and it's given me the ability to realize that, yeah, there's a world of difference between showing it as brutal, and showing it as some perverse supposed-to-be-titilating way. it might not be the best way (and F&H2 did choose a very good way to tackle the subject again), but I think that it's also... an acceptable way, to portray it. Sometimes you need it to NOT be subtle, to not have the ability to filter it out and look away. F&H1 was visceral as a game experience. F&H2 was cerebral, and part of it was that if you've played F&H1 first, F&H2 uses what the first game taught you to add the extra anxiety, the lurking threat of a more overt attack, and then refuses to ever difuse that ratcheting feeling of waiting for the brutal other shoe to drop to get into your head-- which is very fitting for the deity involved in F&H2's central plot. And if you know that F&H2 doesn't handle it like F&H1 did and feel relieved, isn't that a bit of a meta commentary on a horrible truth? "At least I don't have to see it here. I can look away from it and be fine just knowing it happened." when someone who's gone through it doesn't have that courtesy. The memory stays. Forever. Even if you can forget it, you'll remember it sometimes. (maybe I'm attributing more skill than the F&H creator has, but I do think that there's something important about how the first game centered on openly attacking your character and even attacking the player through the absolutely unfair mechanics, while the second game concentrates more on trying to lure you into screwing up and covertly attacking you, and the ways that the SA gets handled isn't a reaction to criticism, but was always going to be the point of it-- there's no madness in open assault, just clear-minded darkness and evil.) but this is all just an essay of my opinions, mind.
First of all great video man there's no way that you only have 1k subs with such hard work on every video. Also the video doesn't feel like a drag at all because every section it's well put in nothing it's vague or just filler (if you wanna call it that way). Even for a video that talks about SA it delivers the message about the topic in a very sensitive way. Top notch 10/10 new sub bro waiting for the male sa video, i know somebody already tood you about the videos that talk about it on tv so no point on saying it again. Just golden content
if you wanna talk about THE WORSE SA in a game its dragon age origins, it doesnt show it but the character that we find in the deep roads said that the darkspawn, the game monsters that we face, took her friend away fed her their tainted flesh and blood *freaking r...ped her* 😮💨 and turned her into a broodmother a female darkspawn that, you guessed it, gives birth to darkspawn. Holy molly this game is freaking dark
This is why they will never bring back broodmothers too. Not only because they wanted to move away from misogyny (which is why no one makes fun of Hawke or the Inquisitor for being a woman), the mere existence of broodmothers mean the grey wardens would never accept women. Though a dev tried to retcon the broodmothers thing and tried to pretend it was never meant to be SA
@@fifthdominion why would the existence of broodmothers mean the grey wardens would never accept women? Even though becoming a warden and being turned into a broodmother both entail using tainted blood, they're still two VERY different processes. Do mean like risk of potential capture? Because I imagine female grey wardens, especially those looking to make their final stand in the Frostback Mountains would rather take their own life than risk capture and potentially being turned into broodmares. I agree that the treatment of gender in DAO is sometimes conflicting - like the game states that women are treated as relative equals and are well respected, but sexism and themes of SA (towards women) are very much present. Do you mean women being barred from the grey wardens because of societal ideas of gender roles and/or chivarly that sees women as more vulnerable and therefore bars them from the frontlines to "keep them safe"? Because that is one of the reasons women were and still are prevented from being active frontline combatants in militaries in the real world.
@@fifthdominion I remember that! They tried to backtrack and say "oh, Darkspawn aren't made that way" or something, but it's pretty obvious from that entire section of the Deep Roads with Hespith... I don't necessarily hate the Broodmother backstory since I feel that it was handled respectfully (as a horrific and traumatizing incident that was made worse by the fact that Branka ALLOWED IT TO HAPPEN), but a lot of other games do not manage to address S.A. in a tasteful or comprehensively respectful manner.
@@fifthdominion I honetly think women grey women couldn't be turned in broodmother beacuse thr blight ritual but the darkspawn would try anyway until the blight become too much and woman wander looks like darkspawn too
That was probably the most horrified I've ever been at a video game. Funny how I've never remembered it whenever DA:O is mentioned, but as soon as I see the Broodmother brought up... The leadup was so well done. Through those tunnels echoed the ravings of a woman gone mad, constantly reciting her poem, vaguely describing how the women were taken and violated, and eventually turned. Turned into what...? And at the end of those tunnels I found the Broodmother. I was so sickened. I suddenly understood what it all meant. I understood that the Darkspawn could not be allowed to live. This could never be allowed to happen again. They all had to die. Now she does feast, as _she's_ become the beast.
I feel like the goal of fear and hungers SA is very un-emotional, your character isn't supposed to react to the things that happen in the dungeon, it's a strategy game where things like SA startle you but it won't change the characters in an emotional way, another example of this is how you can just saw of a limb without any care becausr at the end of the day thr characters are just tools for the players strategy to play out
I disagree, personally I see it as them succumbing to the madness of the dungeon as no matter what ending you get your characters always seem to have been emotionally changed for the worse do to their experiences in the dungeon, everything that happens in the dungeon is just too overwhelming to deal with all at once and it's not for nothing that the game has a litteral mind meter wich actively decreases the more time you spend in that horrible place, characters can literally have mental breakdowns if their mind gets too low so they do react to it but it's sortoff like encountering so much horrible stuff all at once that you don't really react to it individually and just see it as a giant cluster of awfulness until it becomes too much and you reach your breaking point
@@pandabanaan9208 Really this is only a factor for Cahara, as he canonically does the A ending while the rest do the S endings. Cahara also has a higher chance of getting the Guard SA scene than other characters, this is likely because when you play as another character the first time you meet Cahara is him in a prison cell which implies he actually did get SA'd. This is pushed further by his motives for being there, his pregnant wife is a prostitute and he's trying to get enough money so he can get her out of that and they can live peacefully together. Unfortunately for him, he completes the A ending and helps create the God of Fear and Hunger with his only reward being the God gives him a quick peaceful death, his wife is now doomed to never seeing him again and living her life as a prostitute, who knows what happens to the child. His story focuses very much around horrors in the more sexual nature. D'arce also likely has a SA experience with the Cave Dwellers due to her antagonizing them, as they're mostly peaceful unless provoked. Her story is mainly the horrors of love(?), she's only there to save Le'gard who is literally Griffith and ultimately he's dead by the time she finds him. Her love for him is so strong she resurrects him, helps him achieve his "god-hood" and that's it, she's a side character to Le'gard's story. Enki more or less suffers through the horrors but not actually give a crap. He defies the cost of becoming a New God and keeps all the benefits, ultimately being essentially the more knowledgeable man in the world and is still alive by FaH2, just not seen in game. Pretty sure most of his trauma came from what happen to his sister before the game starts. Ragnavaldr experiences the horrors trying to find Le'garde, seeking revenge for him killing Rag's family, finds he's already dead and decides that none of these horrors should be allowed to live. Dude is basically Doom Slayer, kills every monster he can find to the point that monsters are considered myth by the time of FaH2. He has the title of God of Ultra Violence while being 100% human, he took the horrors and made them cease to exist. Also canonically he adopts Moonless who is best dog and his family lineage exists all the way into FaH2. Out of all the canon endings, Cahara is the one who goes through the worst of it. The dungeon was so bad for him that by the end of his canon ending, the God of Fear and Hunger told him he's suffered enough and killed him. D'arce likely suffered a lot of trauma from the dungeon, but she's so unimportant to the overall lore nobody knows what happened to her afterwards.
@chadachi3970 I see we're you are coming from but firstly just because the other endings aren't canon doesn't mean they don't matter, since most of the non character specific endings mention how it broke you mentally this seems to have been a theme miro was going for when he wrote the first game secondly I think it's noteworthy that enki and rag were the ones to not be effected as harshly as the others, ragnvaldr had already witnessed horrors in his backstory and seen his village slaughtered, and even then I wouldn't consider him going on a murder spree to seek out and kill every monster a healthy development since he is still holding onto that wrath he felt towards legarde, it's more like he was already a bit unwell before entering the dungeon and coming there didn't change that, the god of ultra violence as he would eventually be known was doing the world a favor but the fact he has ultra violence in his name probably says enough about his mental health after dedicating his life to fighting abominations, enki on the other hand, well he is anything but normal, he was raised in a dark cult and you can easily tell based on his behavior, though honestly I personally feel like enki was already a bit screwed up just by the conditions he was born into since as far as I can tell he doesn't seem that effected by the events around his sister meaning the dark priests had already effected his mind to a good extend as if you take advantage of her sparing you and have enki kill her when she is off guard he doesn't seem remorseful over it, as it stands enki seeks enlightenment and knowledge rather then human connections and since he was already entangled with darkness from childhood it makes sense he would really be the only one who wouldn't get worse after his time in the dungeon at least in his S ending were he with the help of nosramus discovers the true path to enlightenment rather then the new gods
@@pandabanaan9208 my point is that the game doesn't make the player get emotional with the characters. For example, when you chop off a character's arm in fah neither you or the character is gonna be sentimental about that but maybe if it was a game like tlou and you had to cut off your character's arm it would be much more emotional and personal. It's the difference between playing as if the character is someone you emotionally care about and the character being someone you control. As for the ending, yea they have feelings and stuff but the ending text isn't integrated gameplay it's well... Ending text. There is nothing wrong with this i mean its just like that because its a strategy rpg. Fah has a debuff called depression whilst games like tlou have you see how the character might feel depressed because fah isn't a story (it has story but u know what I mean) Don't get me wrong the characters go through hell and it's shown in the end but it's not how the gameplay is meant to work, the gameplay is purely strategic
@@chadachi3970 I don't think there is a "canon" for fah, like it exist we just don't know what it is, I think cahara died taking the girl to become the god of fear and hungers as we know ragnavalder and enki survived and we know that d'arce probably helped le'garde ascend. In other words I don't think you can say he survived in his Canon ending imo
I don't get how most people can be shocked at the S.A. in Fear & Hunger. I think its portrayal is rather childish in most situations, what with the brief but explicit 2 frame animation and the loud blood farting that comes afterward. Ironically, the dev drew the line at child S.A. but did a very good job at putting that disturbing image in your head.
I think the shock is split between ‘just being amazed it was included at all,’ and ‘getting legitimate flashbacks from it.’ The inclusion of bleeding at a mechanical level is an unusually intimate and specific detail that could prompt traumatic memories. It’s not necessarily a moral judgement. We just can’t always control how hard these depictions hit us. It’s like when war veterans get set off by happy fireworks shows.
@Densoro Yeah, I didn't mean to speak for people who get triggered by this content. More so, the people who think the game's inclusion of S.A. makes it "so much more dark and brutal." Meanwhile, I just think, "What makes this so different to the many sleazy monster rape flash games?"
and also to add, the sa parts basically just serve as “oohh creative brutal nasty death” for the game so theres no character trauma involved exactly. character backstories in F&A that involve SA is different tho (i mean one difference obviously is they dont die from it right afterwards)
@@johnskelington I don't really want to delve into this topic, but here goes... I think there's a big difference between fantasy "rape" and someone actually being sexually violated. Unless you're talking about something different, those sleazy monster rape flash games you mentioned are made for the purpose of porn. Everyone playing them understands the context they're in. You play a sexy girl and your objective, or at least your side objective, is to get fucked by all the different monsters blocking your path. There are no lasting consequences and the girl is depicted as enjoying the act, or at least not terribly inconvenienced by it. It's all make believe, although I could certainly see an argument made for the potentially incredibly dangerous views those games might impress upon their audience, about how women will eventually be into it etc. Some people like to role play rape scenes. Some people even like to role play being raped. I really doubt those people would enjoy being actually raped without their consent, in a situation where they're actually in danger. So while I can certainly understand your dislike towards games that use these topics for entertainment, for me it's fairly easy to understand why the inclusion of rape in F&H was so shocking. It was depicted as traumatizing, both physically and psychologically. It was made horrific and real. My guess is that most men won't really understand the gravity of sexual assault until they see what it's like to be a victim. I'm sorry for the long post, and I'm sorry if I came across as combative. I just wanted to get this off my chest. And now I'd rather leave this subject for another day.
I feel Mouthwashing is another good example of nonsexualized, good, realistic display S.A. and it's impact on a victim that isn't said directly, but definitely evident once all the pieces fall into place. Also such a good game generally
I think in general, video games are expected to be "satisfying" more than other forms of art do, due to it's game nature and the expectations we have of a game : to be fun and bring the player satisfaction for resolving the situations they are faced with. It's interactibility also makes it feel different, as a player of video games has more agency in the story being told than a movie watcher. I am passionate about disturbing art, and adament about the fact art doesn't always have to bring positive emotions. My introduction to this was Otto Dix's Skat Players, a disjointed collage artwork representing injured, amputated, roughly fixed up WWI veterans playing cards. I first hated how ugly it was and how uncomfortable it made me, and grew to love it for the attention brought to details and how these details told a very gruesome, sad, despairing story about these men who lost their ability to enjoy life in a senseless war. Art is about conveying a message, trying on someone else's perspective on a subject, and sometimes these messages are bleak, cynical, desperate. They are hard to take in and yet so true, vivid and important that a good realization of it will feel like a punch to the guts. I guess that's how video games have more expectations put on them when it comes to sensitive subjects, because you can't be as cynical if you want the end result to be somehow satisfying. As a recent art form, it also hasn't yet built as much credibility in the public eye as an interactive form of art that can be used to pass strong messages, rather than just an enjoyable hobby.
I think Silent Hill 2 is an interesting case of S.A. being baked into the worldbuilding and narrative of a game. Angela and her plot is the most obviously explicit in the game but its also a major theme of James' too.
I felt your last video was a little undercooked (probably because there is already a lot of good stuff on the subject), but I really like your nuanced and level-headed takes here. Keep it up.
Omg ive literally looked all OVER the place for this vdeo, I watched it some time ago and then I wwanted to watch it again but I COULD NOT for the life of me find it again!
i really wish you talked about silent hill 2 in this video, it has some of the best representation i’ve seen. if you haven’t played the game yet, you should. both the original and the recent remake are amazing (and stand-alone, so you don’t have to play the first.)
i love funger, but if you are sensitive to SA, i probably would NOT play it. The scene this guy is talking about is rare and hidden early in the game, but here is the thing, the dungeon isn't just a dungeon, and it goes really deep. And down in the deep there are SOME HORRIFIC creatures that DO HORRIFIC things if you die to them, and its guaranteed(harvestman). So just be prepared if you are going to play the game blind.
Fair warning, I'm about to YAP. Great video, as with any sort of topic I think any form of media should be able to cover SA, but the way some writers handle it can be pretty terribly done. Obviously if a game's entire premise is around being some kind of hentai plot then they're clearly not taking it seriously, but some writers (like with heavy rain) will take a mildly serious game and insert SA as some kind of weird light hearted joke moments with none of the actual seriousness the topic should be handled with. I do like how Fear and Hunger handles it though, the game itself explores all manner of horror and the truth of the matter is that SA is a form of horror that some people face. The game has body horror, mutilation, eldritch, everything really so it makes sense that sexual horror is also something the game includes. Even FaH2 which toned down a lot on the SA stuff explores sexual horror in characters like Daan and Marina, the former's parents being in a sex cult and the latter being a trans character. They (along with all human characters) later in the game have "monster" forms if not saved which tie into sexual horror relating to their character, the monster forms in the second game relating to the character's darkest fears of how people see them. Abella if played as also has a scene where if she sleeps in a particular bed, another character will attempt to SA her and leads straight into a fight (she wins and literally busts his balls). Only thing to point out in the Fear and Hunger portion is that the gods are separated into groups which are the Old Gods, Ascended Gods and New Gods. (This really has little to do with the actual video topic, so it's just a lore thing for anyone interested.) Old gods are more like eldritch beings like Cthulu or Yog-Sothoth, just the presence of them is enough to cripple the mind and this is shown in ending B where even if you win... you die. These gods are Sylvian, Gro-goroth, Vinushka, Rher and God of the Depths, the last one is dead at this point though. Ascended gods are All-mer and the God of Fear and Hunger, they're humans who truly ascended to god hood rivaling the power of the old gods. All-mer is basically Fear and Hunger Jesus and the God of Fear and Hunger is tied to ending A of the game, which is canon for 1 character. New gods are explicitly only in Fear and Hunger 1, they're humans are have obtained godlike powers but their minds become distorted and embody what their soul type is. They are far below the Old and Ascended gods in terms of actual power.
Beyond Two Souls was absolutely atrocious. There is an attempted SA scene, but there are some devastating voice clips recorded and available on the web. Apparently in the early draft the player was able to just let it happen instead of the game now locking you into fighting off the assailants. Considering that, the fact that that the main character had fully modelled nude body and that Elliot Page's childhood photos were used without his consent... Yikes. Oh and the main character is underage at that point too. ALSO, when the mc has a traumatic flashback of when it near happened and starts crying and freaking out, the game's main love interest (a piece of shit through and through that the narrative just expects you to like anyway) JUST WALKS OUT ON HER WITHOUT A WORD BECAUSE 'NO SAX? I'M OUT.' Doesn't even ask what's wrong, just leaves.
To be fair from the boyfriend's perspective, she was normal up to that point and has ghost superpowers. If I was the dude and a girl I know could kill me in 2 seconds started freaking out mid conversation. I would leave too.
@@almalone3282 but it's not her powers, it's Aiden. And to lead to the scene you need to have Aiden not do anything at all, otherwise Ryan leaves mid-dinner. And he knows cause he was the military guy who took her to the training grounds from the lab.
@kiroava6277 *The girl I'm dating is spiritually connected to a ghost monster who could kill me in 2 seconds* Yea, my point still stands. Leaving is a completely reasonable thing to do in that situation.
@@almalone3282 why are you so keen on excusing a fictional character from a badly written video game made by a creator who has a history of objectifying women? You're right, you probably wouldn't stay, but I dare say you wouldn't even date a girl who is this dangerous. Point is, at no point did Ryan ever showed being afraid of Jodie nor Aiden, not while being the military tough guy, not on the missions, not after the truth about Somalia came out. The only reason he left was because she was initially willing to sleep with him but suddenly wasn't. This is literally the 'mixed signals' excuse.
@@almalone3282 Coward, I guess. I'd be more worried that she's upset and I did something wrong than thinking I'M GONNA DIE FUCK RUN FOR YOUR LIIIIIIIIIFE if my GF broke down and her murderghost started acting out thinking I'm going to hurt her. I'd back away (and stay far away from escape routes), but I'd be trying to help talk her down, not being a POS that ditches MY GIRLFRIEND WHO'S PANICKING AND CRYING.
I constantly hyperfixate about the Madison portrayal because honestly she’s such wasted potential and The Doc/Sexy Girl are both so abysmal when it comes to trauma and sexual horror. If you want something awesome for Madison, just check out the Taxidermist chapter as that one is somehow peak fiction and covers sexual horror respectfully enough. And not only that but it’s a WAYY better intro for her than Sleepless Night, bc that chapter is just cut content backstory that explains nothing for her (she originally had trauma from being a war journalist which is why she only feels safe sleeping in motels - bc she’s constantly on the move, bc “staying in one place for too long” makes her feel subconsciously unsafe. It MAKES sense but it got cut soooo) I gotta be honest, I don’t hate what the Doc chapter tried to be, as I actually think the fight scene and the concept of making Madison’s journey about trauma and how she can’t stop getting herself involved in these situations is a very interesting idea, but the problem is that it’s always so gratuitous and oddly meaningless, and she never really reflects on those events past a super shallow throwaway line. I think they really needed to keep the Taxidermist chapter in the main game and give Madison survivor’s guilt to fuel her story, so The Doc would awaken the trauma she got from that chapter. Also it really sucks that Madison always has to play dead and bait SA for her to overpower The Doc when she beats the shit out of him in the fight, yet with the Taxidermist - a man twice his size and strength, she simply can use a chainsaw and kill him without any weird gratuitous tricks, which was a pretty unique approach. The deaths in the Doc chapter are also really gratuitous and I think it should’ve been a double kill scenario to make it more tragic and less fetish fuel
Like I get wanting to tell a story with sensitive subject matter, but I feel like I've seen "Thing portrays SA really bad" like 500 times and "Thing portrays SA really well" 0 times that I can remember. It just seems like more trouble than it's worth.
With Maddison it COULD have been shown the mix of reporting horrors or her own past manifesting into her fears. All very logical for a news reporter reporting on killers who are yet to be caught. Its almost like there could have been so many ways to give that scene meaning and give the pervs their kicks. It isn't a psychological leap to make some conclusions about her. I think that serves to make it all the more infuriating.
I think that you can write about dark topics but do your best to not to just do it for shock value or in a disrespectful way. I don't mind I Spit On Your Grave or Hard Candy. Some things are better left implied instead of shown in my opinion. Not saying that's always the case of course.
19:17 there are in fact far worse games out there than this. Though normally you're the victim instead. You can find people playing them on youtube heavily censored of course. You cannot even name them in the comment sections for obvious reasons. Heck one of which released on Steam.
There is a mass amount of visual light novel or dating simulator games produced in japan that contain romanticized SA scenes (many using minors). I hate the fact that these games are so globally available that you can buy them on steam. "Song of Saya", is a visual novel game containing scenes of straight up p3d0filia. In fact, the version of Song of Saya on US Steam is not even the original version because the real one is not CENSORED.
Yes Ellie was traumatised from that I mean she killed hunters , FEDRA and other people and I actually felt for her even my grandma was watching gameplay that time she acknowledge how strong that girl is , She is so well written well until part 2 and fear and hunger well its just disturbing fantasy even for a rpg maker like I was shocked when you go to dungeons ... well you know them brutes and debuff
Edit: I made a cut around the 11 minute mark of this video because it was getting flagged. You'll know it when you see it.
Gents I'm so conflicted about this video. I've basically spent the last 3 weeks researching S.A. scenes, talking about S.A., playing S.A scenes and editing S.A. I'm burnt out on this topic but I still a lot more I could talk about but let's start with changes I had to make to this video.
1. This video got flagged and age restricted multiple times and UA-cam was being vague about why its being flagged so I had to record parts of the video to censor myself more l. This was probably the most frustrating part of making this.
2. After watching a video by Drew Good enough called Everybody wants to waste your time and in the video he talks about some content being inflated to make the video as long as possible. I do not think I did this on purpose but I think my video could be condensed down to make a better and more concise video. So here's some the content that was taken out
I shortened the cultural sensitivity section. I think this section is important because it defines why this a topic even worth covering but I don't talk about any game until I get to the tomb raider segment which can be jarring for me to only start talking about video games about 7 minutes into the video. So I cut down the part before the tomb raider discussion.
3. What is now the heavy rain section used to be the narrative implementation section. For everyone of Madisons weirdly written scenes I talked about a topic and another female character. For sleepless nights I talked about sexualisation and how madison is a “sexy” plot device. Then I compared her to Tifa who is sexualised but still has a personality. For the doc chapter I talked about how villains do bad things and S.A. can be one of those things. But the way it's handled in heavy makes it seem like shallow shock value nonsense. Then I compared it to the last of us but this became its own section. This kinda why I sort of jump from the doc to s*xy girl without discussing it further. And lastly the s*xy girl chapter I used to talk about the femme fatale archetype and compared Madison to Ada Wong and Bayonetta. All of these discussions were meant to show how you don't need to use S.A. as a clutch for writing about women's struggles and character development. But I felt this ultimately became about “Writing women in games”. So I removed all of it but this still leaves this section feeling a bit longer than it should.
4. I removed a kind of bonus section where I talked about Male S.A. in games. We all know about the complicated way Male S.A. is treated in media , basically a joke. I found examples of the tired rape jokes we see in TV and film. This was the intro then I transitioned into more serious discussions: Far Cry 3(Citra SAing Jason and Buck SAing Keith), F.E.A.R. (ALMA!?) and the swamp scene from RDR2. This I mostly removed because I want to cook on it more and if I made it its own video about Male S.A. in media then I can talk about Denji(CSM) which would completely elevate the topic.
This original video had about a 50 minute runtime.
Also feel free to drop your opinion on this video as it. I approached this video from my experiences and understanding so there might be some oversights. One problem I did catch is the fact that my pronunciation is a bit spotty in some parts. I'm working to improve this for future videos and I provided the Closed Captions for this video but I initially uploaded the wrong file and yt says it will take a bit for it to update to the new one.
If you're interested in looking into male S.A. in media, there's a channel called Pop Culture Detective thag has multiple GREAT videos on the subject, I really recommend them. He only focuses on film and TV though, so you'd have plenty of room to expand on them by including games.
this guy never fails to have pure superficial & reductive stances against for the subject matter of 'how games handle X' videos.
@@godzillazfriction Instead of pointless trash talking, why don't you provide some constructive criticism? What would you like to see in this type of video? What should he have expanded upon? Where exactly does he fall short?
yes yess yesss...
gotta love the 'male' sa & separate as it's own entity... funny how ppl talk & criticise 'exploitation'. already giving amazing examples for the (preassumed) well-worthy (sarcasm) [INSERT] criticism of 'male' sa such as Jason Brody & yada-yada.
@@comradecatbug5289enough with the [INSERT] criticism... there's no point in it.
just stating what it is.
if you want more elaboration from me then check another comment thread.
Mouthwashing is another game that handles SA extremely well. Jimmys assault of Anya is never outright said but most definitely canon when you read between the lines. Anya’s difference in attitude between Curly and Jimmy is like night and day. I’m probably not putting it the best but Mouthwashing has seriously got to be one of my favorite games ever created
How good is this game actually. I might just make a video on it
@@not_456 It’s seriously amazing. I would love to see a video on it from you, I cannot recommend it enough.
@@not_456I think it’s a masterpiece tbh. Especially with how it deals with Anya’s SA and the subtle but coherent message of listening to victims and how their voice is often drowned out by others(such as the perpetrator).
@@not_456 its absolutely fucking amazing. its well worth you playing and well worth a video. It's only 2 hours. SERIOUSLY consider it. Honestly my game of the year.
Anya's SA being something the perpetrator barely acknowledges or feels remorse for but is also blatantly the inciting incident for everything that happens after is also a big plus. Not to mention great implied commentary on enablers and how even with the best of intentions, inaction out of favouring someone can still cause adverse effects across the board.
God, Joel saying Baby Girl after the event always hits me the hardest and then the pain in Joel's voice...
Hearing her crying in fear downright fucked with me
As a victim of S.A. and avid fan of Fear and Hunger, I don't get easily triggered by these topics, in videogames at least, but it still makes me uncomfortable in cases like Heavy Rain , where it feels like S.A. even sexualized, rather than to add something to the story or complexity of the character. That's something that I love about F&H, that it's so crude in its subject matters, but all that violence and heavy topics have a meaning and purpose in the game, you're supposed to be traversing the place where evil itself resides, so of course you can expect that everything will be out to get you in various ways, including S.A.
I really liked your take on this! I read the comment you pinned and I don't think that the video was vague or that it has to be more concise, it can be a heavy/complex subject so it's normal that you need to showcase various examples of it to be able to convey your point. This is the first video that I watch from you, instantly subscribed :)
What happen sorry if it makes you uncomfortable
Im sorry that happened to you
@@igotkidsquandledingle1388Don't ask people that.
Agreed, I don't dislike the subject exactly, I'll often dive into it for the catharsis even, but it pisses me off when it's used to be edgy or it's just pointless. This is a big deal, it should be treated as such, you know? Don't cheapen this shit by treating it like it's nothing. Though oddly enough fetish games like Rape Play where it's so obviously meant to be sexualized doesn't bother me, because it's honest? The purpose there is to cater to fetishists who want to play out that role - cool. I'm not gonna play it, but I'm not missing out on anything, because there's no amazing game there for me to miss out on, its entire purpose is to get people off with this specific kink and it's open and honest about it from the title to the credits. I'm far more uncomfy with stuff like Detroit: Become Human which doesn't *have* SA but does have that same "I just wanna see a pretty lady struggling against being tied up by a man she's vulnerable to" scene (from the same writer as Heavy Rain none the less) than I am with the fact that some people get off to simulated rape and make games/movies/etc. about it.
@@igotkidsquandledingle1388 Dude just look it up
Silent hill 2 is another game that does it well with Angela s character without even showing you or blantly telling you
Yes
There's more focus on how Angela feels and how the trauma manifests.
But the monster ''abstract daddy'' and the room they are in is quite blatant in what it's trying to tell you.
@hallakazam yeah In a sense that's true plus the monsters in my opinion are apart of her human psyche so i feel like it makes sense that they say daddy because like why wouldn't you have monster about the person who did that to you but In my opinion it's still way better than them just showing you the sa silent 3 explores such theme's better than the second game which no way talks about for some reason
And it’s incredibly sad seeing her blame herself for something that objectively isn’t her fault
@@AmirysMewen Yes, it's sadly common among SA survivors.
Just like victim blaming.
Tbh, he puts TLoU on a pedestal and is not gonna convince a lot of people cause of LoU2 drama.
F&H2 actually handles SA way better and in a more nuanced way. The character of Daan is heavily implied to have been hurt by his parents in this way - they were bunnymasks, worshippers of Sylvian, and "taught him" Sylvian magic. Daan's entire story, and his moonscorched form (forms the characters take during the termina festival that represent the worst aspect of themselves, or the aspect they're most insecure or afraid of being) is pocketcat, who is a predator. His narrative is literally about the cycle of abuse.
Daan breaks my heart.
Daans story makes me so sad everytime 😭😭
daan went through it dude that poor guy
I've seen people discusing whose story is worse, if Daan's or Levi's, but I honestly think Daan got it waaay worse... At least Levi is still young and has new chances in life.
Oh God... I didn't even realize how his parents would teach him magic. That's so disgusting of them...
S.A. in David Cage games is like porn fantasy that pretends itself to be high art and meaningful in its messages.
It has nothing to do with the story and is forgotten just as abruptly as it’s introduced. Is David insensitive or just incompetent?
Perhaps he’s just addicted to trying to appear profound? Problem is, he takes himself too seriously and fall flat every time.
David Cage is a hack writer and also a huge asshole. Elliot Page played one of his characters (before he transitioned) in one of Cage's games and his contract stated there would be no nude scenes. Elliot's face and body would be scanned and turned into a 3d model and animated with mocap. David Cage hired a body double and had a nude model made anyway. I just think its for his own gratification and nothing more.
@@francisco646He's extremely sexist. Like, flagrantly, openly, and proudly sexist.
@@francisco646 I mean I'm pretty sure he's just into it. The women even look similar.
@@francisco646 i... i think its both. he's insensitive bc he's into it and he's also just, like, generally incompetent when it comes to trying to write meaningful, cohesive storytelling.
If anybody wants to play fear and hunger but doesn’t want to experience the SA scenes, there is a mod that takes out only the visual r word scenes, and keeps in the mentions of it, but also there are mods that take out everything related to SA
I love the game and I don’t think it handles SA wrong but I know that these type of scenes would be really detrimental to my mental heath
I always wonder why that option does not exist for movies, because in my mind having to edit movies so that certain acts remain implied and not visually acted out has to be less complicated than programming all that on a game, no?
@@corneliahanimann2173mods are easy and free. All it takes is one person to dedicate some free time to upload a mod that removes scenes. Then anyone who wants the censored version can choose to do so. Movies would have to censor for mass release or have two separate screenings.
Movies and tv wont censor themselves because they dont care. I mean a lot of games dont either but you cant censor a movie unless you bought it on dvd or something and they released a specific censored version but...modding just makes everything personalized.
I think that’s mostly in the first game. The creator toned it down it for the 2nd after agreeing some of it leaned into more of shock value
Still Heard the sounds though xD so is better just run away from this abomination and killed by something that focus on killing
What I’ve noticed watching people react to the winter arc in The Last of Us and David specifically is that a lot of men did not pick up on the fact he was a predator until even after the huge fight at the end. Even with the sound of his zipper, how he talks to Ellie, everything, some don’t realize it but most women playing it or watching it knew immediately because most of us had an encounter with someone who was exactly like David
never played TLOU, but have been planning to and still plan to do so, but yeesh. I knew someone like this David character who seemed normal but was actually a creep. His name was also David and I hope he rots in the slammer (if the police ever catch him) or/and hell.
@ if you watched the show it’s well done too, and my point still stands on men not really noticing he’s a creep. But yeah, hope that David you know rots in hell
@@connyaaaa5555 He’s a predator based on what? Just jumping to conclusions because the game forces you not to like him? He’s the bad guy in Joel’s story, not in David’s or his community’s story
@ he’s literally a cannibal, and in the show you can see him reach down for his pants and unzips them, and says the struggle is the best part and you’re telling me he’s not a predator?
@@connyaaaa5555 I kinda mean at the beginning, he helped get Ellie medicine, but that makes him bad apparently. Her negative attitude made him act worse later on, Joel and Ellie being untrustworthy caused it.
I think it’s interesting (in a way) that the Fear and Hunger “bleeding anus” debuff effectively never goes away (unless you become another person entirely or are healed by a god). You can’t treat it like you can regular bleeding. Feels like it’s reflecting the idea that the effects of rape never go away, it’s something you’ll have to carry with you always.
Alice Madness Returns is a game I'd say also handles SA (specifically CSA) well, if anyone wants to look into that.
What's CSA??
@@boringface1803 Child SA
@@boringface1803child sexual assault
@@boringface1803 child...
@@boringface1803SA but the C stands for Child
glad TLOU was mentioned, it's one of my favorite representation of SA in games. ellie was clearly affected by it later in her life and it didn't just go away after a few moments, a lot of media does that instead of showing the long term effects that it has on the brain
Just cause she's a lesbian doesn't mean it was a byproduct of her S.A. Still making lesbains characters in a post-apocalyptic world seems out of place. They even had a dude in the second game. Just be there to give the pair a baby, then later was killed and discarted like he didn't exist.
I also love how subtle it was and how his intentions slowly became clear. SA isn't always right in our face
I really REALLY appreciate the part about the perfect victim and using Terry Crew's case as an example. I think we have this image that the SA victim must be a woman, usually white, young, fragile, and 'pure'. In reality, people from all demographics, all personalities, and different histories are susceptible to being harmed by another person. This video reminds me of another controversial topic of who the artist should create for, and whether its right to not allow artists write about certain topics. I think my stance of all of this aligns with my interpretation of your message (correct me if im wrong), where engaging with certain topics is fine AS LONG AS the consequences of its dissemination, if tactfully handled. I think depicting sensitive topics, especially trauma inducing events, can be so empowering for people who are living in those realities. I also think that video games and art both reflect our culture and influence it. I wont say that it is the chief cause, but people notoriously muddle fiction and fact. When combined with other cultural or social sources, video games may become this implict endorsement of horrible things. I think thats what creators should be aware of. To reiterate your point, art is received and interpretated within a culture, so the author must be mindful of the intention and execution of messages.
Hate when it's inconsequential and does nothing for characterization. Why even have it atp
Heavenly Delusion pissed me off for this exact reason.
For shock value.
Director's barely disguised fetish or shock value
Why have normal violence for the same reason?
@@Garl_Vinlandso entertainment. I mean honestly if violence and maiming upon unwitting fictional characters is ok I really struggle to justify how SA is not in the same boat. Every single justification in the tv tropes page for "rape is a special kind of evil" kinda doesn't make sense for an out of universe perspective on the media itself.
The only thing is that rape is pathetic while violence comes from power, so a rapist is realistically speaking not a cool character for any irl person. But that's not the argument, now, is it?
Idk, it's strange and I don't like people's immediate and aggressive knee-jerk shut down of the topic. It feels dumb.
Poor maddison was done dirty. The nightmare could have actually been used to establish her character. Like maybe she is a survivor, and thus has frequent nightmares and insomnia. This could have lead to something. But instead its like..there. For what purpose? It seems like it was just there for shock value
Genuinely feels like: "this scene is getting a little boring, what can we do to spice it up?!".
@@Chaosian It’s almost as if the game had too many slow moments and it needed something fun to happy
Why does it need a purpose? It’s a fun action sequence that doesn’t turn out to be true, throws you off guard thinking this character can be out the game immediately but they back peddle and keep it as a fun dream, smart idea
@@CodPatrol I think the car chase in Goldeneye was pretty fun, myself. I don't think it should be inserted into the middle of Schindler's List though.
@@Chaosian When is Heavy Rain about SA though? Nobody said Heavy Rain can’t have action sequences to have in between the slow looking for clues parts
My main grievances with Berserk is that while male characters SA is being portrayed as this impactful horrific thing most female SA is over the top and explicitly shown which is giving more shock value for the sake of shock value most of the time.
That's why i respect Fear & Hunger: both men and women are SAd and it's shocking and gruesome and brutal. No character being a man or a woman won't escape this horror.
Also, Cassandra's assault is treated as a motive for Guts. It isn't explored how Cassandra's traumatized from.
@mysteriousdestiny6672 I understand what you mean, it does sometimes feel like cascas SA affects guts more than it affects casca. I dont think Casca is completely written off though. Her reactions when she is braindead show how deeply it affects her, as well as in the most recent chapters. But as much as I love berserk, I always thought cascas condition due to SA was a lazy, unrealistic portrayal, that gave all the angst to Guts instead of showing how a good person like casca would have to deal with that. This is just my critique though, I love berserk. Guts is also a victim of SA obviously, and hw always appeared like a slave/object to Griffith also. Seeing Guts journey through that, and being a flawed, yet amazing person is powerful
I kinda agree. Guts character arc around SA is a really good portrayal of long term trauma, but a lot of the other SA involving women feels very voyeuristic. Some of the manga panels during the eclipse scene are unnecessary but i think the movie is the worst when it comes to this.
@@not_456 i think the scene with Griffith when he washes himself in the lake (after we know that he was forced into sехual relationships to fund the Hawks) is also a great representation of SA. It's subtle, deep and emotional. Yet when Charlotte is being SAd by her own father the story didn't spend a lot of time to shown her trauma even if it supposed to be also extremely tragic. Like both important men in Charlotte's life are either using (Griffith) or abusing (her father) her.
And yeah, when i see women getting r*ped in most of the media i ALWAYS think "it would NEVER be depicted in THAT way if this character was male".
Fear & Hunger at the other side said MAKE 👏 R*APE 👏IN 👏 DARK 👏 FANTASY 👏 EQUAL. Which is extremely bold, is uncomfortable for many people but also unapologetic and i kinda respect that.
I think that Casca’s was just way too gratuitous and long. It also seemed slightly, fetishy in the way it was drawn. It literally goes on for pages. And I know that it was more of a power dynamic with Griffith and Guts, that Griffith was just trying to hurt Guts as much as possible and show him how powerless he was. Also the fact that Griffith tried to get with her after they rescue him and she just isn’t into it at all and rejects him, his ego and confidence was just destroyed because she always looked at him like a god, so I think that was another motive. I do like that the journey afterwards is about fixing her mind and getting her to a good place again, but the actual scene itself was very uncomfortable and I’m a massive Berserk fan and think it’s one of the best stories ever written. I do agree her SA could have been done much more emphatically. It’s always been the one thing that I think could have been done differently.
I’d say with Fear and Hunger, SA is basically yet another terrible fate that can befall your character.
It works because it’s another thing on a long list of ways a run can come screeching to a halt, which includes stepping on a rusty nail. The world of dungeon is a miserable place, where you will suffer and it’s just a question of how. It’s not got special attention drawn to it, it’s just a horrid reality of the world.
i think the problem most people have with it is that when you reach that point, you don't know it actually fits the world. It's so much out of nowhere when it first hits you most people (including me) just think(/thought) it's trying to be edgy.
@eadbert1935
To be fair, there's a lot of different ways to get your first game over.
Mine was hanging about trying to find loot in the initial area and becoming a chew toy. I also remember finding the brain-like creature before the guards, so I sort of guessed things were off.
Getting the guard fight and screen as your first encounter would be off putting, but it does show you to pick your fights. I think it's appropriate to have, though maybe not as a first encpounter .
@@eadbert1935 I mostly agree. I think the fact that that can be your first death in the game could be a serious turn off. Though, the later scene with the elite guard is way worse if you get that one, imo. Fantastic games, though, great stories.
As a survivor of multiple CSA's, F&H and Mouthwashing have become very near and dear to my heart. If you haven't already, I'd highly recommend checking out Mouthwashing. That game has one of the best SA depictions I've ever seen and all the characters are extremely well written.
Awesome vid and i totally agree! the inclusion of challenging topics isn't the issue, its how they are implemented and if its done with respect and in service of the character and story. The best depiction I've seen by far is Astarion from BG3. its all told from the perspective of the survivor focusing on the effects of abuse. not the spectacle. SA is never shown of the character, only the effects of it. and his past and any current issues never happen in a way the player cant change. in fact the only time you meet his abuser is when you have the chance to stop him. there was never a time it felt voyeuristic. it was very respectful and nuanced. Plus, you don't get many stories about male survivors and the effect it can have on a person and you also very rarely get a depiction of an imperfect victim with flaws. it all lead to SA being something the audience could truly empathise with in a way that wasn't framed to titillate or reduce the character
Everyday I'm reminded that I should play Baldurs Gate 3. This seems like a perfect inclusion to the sequel of this video.
The usual reasons I can't stand how S.A. is portrayed in media like GOT and Witcher because it's often framed in a manner meant to be salacious rather than the brutal assault it is, or is just there as motivation for another character in the classic 'women in refrigerators' trope. I think what gets me the most is when there is a female protagonist in media that is trying to be "adult" or "grim dark" its almost already assumed that she is going to be victimized in this way, and while it may not be unrealistic depending on what kind of world the story is set in, it doesn't have to be made a meal of nor is it a "requirement" to give character to depth to often female characters. Basically saying to exist as woman you must expect to be SA-ed and get over it as quickly as the scene ends because that's just how the world works. fdAnd that's not even getting into how male victims are under represented and often written off as SA is usually seen as crime done by men to women.
That's why 40k is in my opinion one of the golden standards of 'grimdark', seeing as it created the phrase.
Sure, Slaanesh exists, but a significant amount of women in 40k die horribly in less fetishy ways via the Sisters of Battle, so it evens out.
Plus, I love the balls on GW to have an all female faction, and then make them arguably the most evil group in the Imperium aside from the Inquisitors.
@@isengarde9490 I only know 40k through reputation, but I know for grimdark its one of the favorites and all the usual unpleasantness discussed before is certainly an option; I've read a few RPG Horror Stories on Reddit that attest to that, but boundaries at the gametable and a GM who doesn't have fetish usually solves that. If I could just show my age here for a minute, I would say even Conan the Barbarian handles the topic better, the original Robert E. Howard short stories, films, and Conan Exiles, and the Hyborian Age from Weird Tales is some of the original grimdark. In the case of Exiles everyone regardless of gender goes through all the gore without the fetishism like 40k, and skimpy armor the doesn't actually protect anything is for all genders... in the case of the original stories the detailed, loving descriptions of Conan's chest and arms can take up a whole paragraph while the women are usually described in a sentence.
I haven't watched the Game of Thrones TV show but wow the show must have screwed up bad if that's what you got from it. In the books on-screen S.A. is a very rare occurrence and when it does happen it's definitely _not_ played for titillation. It's also never treated as a "requirement" for female character depth or as something to be expected for female characters in general.
The female character writing in A Song of Ice and Fire is honestly one of its best aspects. Judging from your comment it sounds like the show really let them down. That's disappointing.
@@DreamyAileen Well when they added in SA scenes where their weren't before, I', giving the show runners the side eye for sure. Emilia Clarke has given more than a few interviews where she talks about how uncomfortable she and Jason Momoa were to the point that it felt like exploitation.
But what burns me the most is that even though GOT is clearly fantasy, people will try and justify the gratuity with "it's based on the Middle Ages so that was normal" ... I can tell you as a reenactor and educator that there was nothing normal about being randomly SA-ed while going to buy eggs on Tuesday in the 14th century. If the court and church records are anything to go on, people responded to violent crime very much the same way we do now.
@@jodieg6318 On the one hand, it’s kind of nice to know that most people have always been basically decent and indignant at violent crime
On the other, it’s depressing to know that things really haven’t changed 😭
19:18 the people behind rapelay also made koikatsu party... No wonder they have a rapey janitor feature in that game..
I am the janitor
@blastermaster5039 ☝🤓
@@LeonS.kennedyswife
yes
e
s
@@blastermaster5039🙁
ew
Angela from Silent Hill 2 will always be my favorite SA representation.
I wonder if many had experiences like me where it was their first media that represent SA. I feel like it helped me understand what good representation is or what I would hope so when it comes to the topic.
Another game that fits well into this subject is Haunting Ground. You play as a young woman who is being perused constantly by people who want to rape or kill her. The atmosphere of the game makes the player really feel the impending dread and anxieties of what might happen.
(Spoiler warnings for those who don’t know the game - it’s well worth it)
I also like that you had a female villain (Daniella) as well as Debi - who saw her as a big doll and playing rough is what causes a game over. You had Lorenzo who appears old (yet is still a threat) and young (attractive adult male - though I personally thought he looked a bit like a prick lol) yet his treatment wasn’t any different. He was still a monster to fear.
I think a personal shock for me was being British and also scaredy like Fiona… and us both being like “DAD?!” At Ricardo (whilst he looks like her dad, he also looks a lot like mine 😭 My dad’s a good man, a bit grumpy, but a good man, so I really felt a connection to Fiona throughout. Including used to owning a German Shepard… I miss her 😢)
imo i don’t think haunting grounds is well done. pretty much the entire game is centered around fiona’s s/a and they give her very weird bonus outfits, give her no character depth and made her have very weird physics. capcom (i think that’s who made it if i remember correctly) is absolutely terrible at writing women without bringing up their looks/body. i haven’t seen it in awhile but in the ending i don’t remember her having a huge reaction? there’s no hg2 so i can’t really judge but it’s just not done well story wise
@@pupplioa Agreed. The whole game just weirldy sexualises her and it made me extremely uncomfortable.
One main issue when depicting sexual assault in videogames and any media is not matter how grotesque, abominable and horrible such act is shown, there is always someone in the world who would jerk off with it.
And ironically many videogames such as Heavy Rain where is supposed they take this matter seriously turns out the creator David Cage is acussed of sexual harassment, so not only they don't understand but also there are part of the problem.
That's why many times the best depictions don't show the act itself, but the aftermath, where you see the pain of the victims and the hubris of the perpetrators.
I feel like SA is one of those examples where the "Show, don't tell" doesn't really work in the story's favour.
@@Sagarathias I don't think it's that, more that what you choose to show is telling. If you're choosing to show a pretty lady with big boobies crying beautifully, complete with money shots, nudes, and a dude thoroughly enjoying himself, then you're not showing a crime you're showing porn, you know?
@@Sagarathias Mouthwashing proves that Show, don't tell DOES work-- but it's not the SA you have to show, it's how garbage the perpetrator is and how it harms the victim and how a "you should all get along and not rock the boat" mentality enables that kind of atrocity, as well as denial when the perpetrator is your friend leading to the victim being further hurt.
Basically it's not the ACT you should show instead of telling, it's the IMPACT of it, and the truth of why it happens (it's never out of lust or sex, it's a matter of power, of control).
Off topic but do I spy a corrin pfp? 🤨🤨🤨🤨
But why are you letting these hypothetical people live in your head rent-free? Why are the reactions of these imaginary people more important than artistic integrity? Notice how you don't do the same for violence in media. Most people wouldn't care if someone watches gratuitous gore in fiction and finds it satisfying, some would even say it's the point. This all boils down to American culture being somehow simultaneously incredibly desensitized to violence and incredibly puritanical about anything sexual. I wish this wasn't the dominant perspective that repeatedly gets regurgitated online and more people acknowledged how arbitrary this cultural double standard is.
Baldurs Gate 3 has a very sensible way of dealing with SA in Astarions story. It is not explixitly shown, but the aftermath and dealing with it, is very well done
I was going to mention this one. It's not explicitly shown but the fallout/aftermath of the SA was done well.
As someone who was SA’d as a child, I always appreciate media that can portray that topic well.
Pretty much all of my favorite games have topics of SA in some way. Fear and Hunger and Mouthwashing are the most obvious ones, but even games like Bloodborne and RDR2 feature it or similar topics (Arthur can get assaulted/r*ped, and Bloodborne features pretty much forcing women to give birth to eldritch horrors).
Games/movies/shows that are unable to portray it well, or sexualize assault, are just games I avoid for my own safety. It’s already hard seeing it in social media and art, but to just watch it or play through it is another form of pain.
I never really thought about Heavy Rain having S.A., since it’s not like r@p£ in the most common sense of the word, but having to remove her clothing for a creep is S.A.
Though I do know her character is sexually exploited, I think a lot of her character was removed (I know the first nightmare part was alluding to her time war correspondent in Iraq and I think she was caught up in something that causes her insomnia) and I think that hurts her character. I think she’s actually got more character than people give her credit for (she helpful, she’s tough, she’s resourceful), but I think she’s held back by David Cage-isms.
I also know the blackouts Ethan had actually gameplay of them and not just fade to black, but they were tied into supernatural things where he and the killer (not going to spoil the game) are telepathically connected, but they took it out to keep with the more realistic to tone of the game (which is a little sad, since I think at least one blackout dealt with the kids victims of the killer and drowning, which I wish was kept in.
I also know Persona 5 (Royal) has S.A. in it and it hits hard (especially inspired by true stories), but then the game sexualizes one of the characters (she’s a main party member) that was sexually harassed by the teacher who was S.A.ing other characters. And all the while, I think her story is supposed to be she’s gaining back her sexuality and empowering herself, but gets treated like a sex symbol that is known more for her beauty in the game, rather than her skill and other qualities. But I mean the game also wants us to pity a magical cat that gets pissed off when one character calls him useless unintentionally, all the while the cat calls this person stupid throughout the whole game, but only the guy should have to apologize…and don’t get me started on Kanji and Yosuke from Persona 4 (Golden)…
eroge game evenicle had the best representation of sa i ever seen.
it shows despair after sa, abandonment by society, showing only a physical shelter isn't enough without therapy, aversion to intimacy and negative association with intimacy and at the end finally overcoming it.
some of these elements don't get full attention they deserve but overall as a eroge it did better job then most other media out there.
ooh, your analysis about how it fits into fear & hunger is really interesting and not something i’d thought of! i had a similar experience of almost dropping the game bc of the graphic sexual assault scenes (and the more. consensual sexual horror too tbh) made me feel nauseous, but ended up sticking with the game and really liked it otherwise. i still definitely have mixed feelings about it (and am REALLY thankful those things are toned down a lot in the sequel), but i can respect it as an artistic choice
speaking of the sequel-not sure if you’ve played it, but fear & hunger termina handles it in a subtler (i.e. less graphic), but still really effective way, especially with the dialogue/boss fight of one specific (returning) character. god that fight makes my skin crawl…
on another note, haunting grounds is another game worth mentioning-since it’s a survival horror that’s kind of *about* the threat of sexual assault, along with general misogyny/objectification
Yeah, I remember how the creator of Heavy Rain said he wanted to bring maturity in video games but his games on what is mature are usually executed in a very shallow way.
Games like Omori, Mother 3, and even Undertale - games that at first glance look like quirky fun kid's games - (and yeah, there is quirkiness to them), but they also come with some pretty heavy topics that they handle gracefully in a mature manner. Leaving something for the players to think about and maybe even cry over the story they experienced.
Not sure if the guy behind Heavy Rain really pulled that off with most players.
David Cage is a pretentious blowhard who thinks including “mature themes” in a work automatically makes that work profound.
I’m Toby Fox’s biggest hater and I really despise how he handled the ludonarrative themes in his games, but even I can admit he’s a more mature storyteller than a hack like Cage.
The camera work in Madison's nightmare sequence says it all about what that scene is for. Cinematography speaks.
Alice: MR and mouthwashing are really good games that handle the topic of sa well!!
Yes bc they dont actually show it in ATMR
The thing about SA that most people don't think about, is that it's just another way for people to hurt each other. People have been hurting each other since the dawn of time, and we spare no one. Everyone is capable of acting of their own accord, and everyone risks being subjected to someone else's actions. It just... happens. I don't know why people do it, even being a survivor myself. I've only ever known about living with the weight of those experiences.
I feel as though people fixate too much on the act itself, instead of the root of the problem. that there is some kind of fascination and intrigue at knowing what people have been subjected too. It feels as though it's perpetuating the issue, instead of addressing how this kind of trauma impacts a person.
The emotions are enough to completely rewire you. I STILL feel ghosts of powerlessness, shame, and even shock. Those feelings can come from any trauma that humans are subjected to... the only difference is what we attach it to, and how we adapt afterwards. And that's the issue. It isn't an exploration of trauma for some people, it is an exploration of a compromising situation.
Overall: I feel that what I've just said above has been my issue with SA in art for so long. I'm tired of hearing voyeur's ideas of exploring such an invasive trauma- that they themselves were lucky enough to never deal with.
Your video reminded me of a specific character in Skyrim. One of the characters and one the Dragonborn's possible followers who is a vampire named Serana is a victim of S.A. Later on in the story, the game acknowledges her trauma and unlike most other female followers in the game, Serana can't be married and when asked about it, instead tells the player she'd feel more comfortable remaining friends. She never explicitly states why, but you can make the connections on your own, plus some other facts about her life. I think this was a good move on Bethesda's part. It would feel crass to have Serana go through all the pain she went through and then end up accepting marriage just like that anyway. On the opposite, it reminds me of how Madison just moved on after getting kidnapped and almost possibly S.A'd. Many people feel sad they can't marry Serana but it just makes sense and is realistic writing by all means.
Played an otome game about a girl and a socially awkward guy that ended with her dressing him up as a girl and him SAing her to "show her that he's actually a man".
Damn thing traumatized me.
Omg I remember that game.
I played it when I was a teen and it felt so out of place, considering it seemed aimed at young girls.
Granted, it was the "bad ending" but still- too much for a seemingly innocent click game.
😰😰😰
@@Callisto171 Exactly! That came out of nowhere!!
what the fuck kind of ending is that,, how the hell did you find it??
@gracieisbored9191 Well, I played the game and chose the options that had me dress him up as a girl.
At the end of it, he goes like, "You wanted to make me a girl. Now I'll show you how much of a man I am," before it's alluded to that he SAs her.
I do not know why, but I thought you would bring up the hinted S.A in Life is Strange with the character Kate Marsh and how it lead to the setup to Mark Jefferson's character. That game also has problems, but that part was not something I got first or 5th time around seeing people play the game, and it took someone making a post about it and pointing out how the only way for Kate to have a certain photo, and us to never see it for story or plot reasons could connect to Mark so much. We don't see his work fully until the MC we play has is forced to have pictures taken of in a moment of no consent. And in the game we also know he is the reason for drugs being used in the school for parties from students. As well as the game also bring up a really weird thing of Rachel who is 18-19...being in a relationship with a 32 year old guy, and the game never really addressing his age or that fact. But then again it seems that French guy's who make video games are fucking weird with young girls I swear.
Another good game about the topic of S.A is silent hill 2 remake. I always had problems with the original game and how Angela was written with that past mindset of why she looks the way she dose, but the remake fixes a lot of it, and treats it a bit better to the point of being down right too emotional and real in some parts. Hats off to the people who made it, cause they fixed by biggest problem with a nearly perfect game.
As for David Cage this is not his first time with this. All his games suffer from this. If a woman has short hair, and a small frame, then they will be sexuilized, and my gosh. Remember what Elliot Page went thought before pre-transition by this guy? They had a nude model be made for all shower scenes of the game, when Elliot's contract said no nude scenes regarding there body, and David was just being weird about it. And there character being put in S.A situation. Like WTH? Plus the moment where he found out that thy where trans they will keep misgendering him, and just be a dick when addressing him to other people. Oddly enough he was a HUGE fan and begged him to be apart of the game, and the moment they found it they where trans he just hated them. As if you know...he sexuilized a man, and disgusted with that, but has not come to that realization yet, and is like, "Eww, your one of those?" and with how he lives up his butt I do not think he will ever see or realize that.
As a side not. Just want to say this. That one fear game was a game I remember so clearly when my old guy friend's from school would talk about it. They where shocked over how the story just...did that. Not only that but a lot of guys wondered why that was a thing or even why it was put in the game. They where not shocked. Just confused and baffled by the whole thing. Some, couldn't even understand why someone like her would S.A a guy for that reason.
On the topic of S.A and how weird the game is with it. Catharine is a good Example of it! We are told by the game, shown that Vincent is being S.A by a woman who he can not remember sleeping with. and the game is like, "Well it still counts as cheating!" and what is worse about the game is that he is in this hell because he didn't 'Make a kid and settle down'. That is it. And you find out in the game he suffers from huge parent issues, cause his mom left him to run away with to be with a man, and he had to grow up fast as a result of it. He didn't eat most days, due to relying on her so much. This poor guy. Also in game you find out there is a guy who suffers so highly from woman dating him or being with him because of his own S.A regarding his mom. And when you know the context of all the guys in there, because they couldn't settle down is very gross and mishandled so poorly due to japanese views.
Other then that. Glad you talked about this, cause I was oddly thinking about this with the talk of how one certain game hints at a character's S.A, and how people are being dismissive of it, since it doesn't say they where flat out. Hints from the story be damned. Same with Genji from CSM. I realize he sadly suffers from people thinking that as well.
Adding to Atlus' poor handling of SA, I love persona 5 to death but how it treats Ann Tamaki was downright disgusting. Her surviving from Kamoshidas abuse and almost losing her best friend due to the same reason was such a pivotal component to her character. Yet we see the game shamelessly giving out fan service by objectifying her (a minor too!!) and not really bringing it up later on in the game. It's honestly terrible how they treated the topic and her character. It's again this distillation of cultural views on women and sexual assault that really holds back the story and writing. I wouldn't say this is unique to Japan, especially given the examples in the video, which just shows how big of a problem this is. I really hope Atlus does better bc I do love their stories.
@@tqoth902 oh no I agree. Like i love the first dungeon on how messed up it is, but has missed potential. Like us finding out from the book puzzled what happened to her friend, "The queen" in that one room left me speechless, cause a lot of people didn't pick up on, that the room in question TELLS YOU what happened to her with the hints in the room. The MC doesn't comment on it that much, nor do the characters. It really sets in with you when the player stand in there and looks through the room in question.
But then Ann getting her awakening was just a miss. I get they where trying to do it where, "She is a woman in power so sex equals power or whatever" but no. She is not Bayonetta. She is a highschooler who has never had a relationship before and never been with someone romantically so she has no idea about any of that. It really dose feel like a writer's barely disguised fetish or them not understanding how to write a female highschooler with out being weird about it.
@tqoth902 I feel like P5 has a major problem where the first arc writes checks that the rest of the story can't cash. It wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants Ann to both be obligatory Lovers Arcana fanservice, and also a survivor who gains the strength to fight her abuser. It uses Kamoshida as an example of power dynamics being taken to their worst outcome, and also has Kawakami as a romance option. I like Kawakami but you see the hypocrisy. It's like the plot forgets the specifics of what Kamoshida did, beyond him being a bad guy.
And yeah, Maxi's right, too. Although I could see the idea of the outfit from the perspective of "Ann is a model, her natural beauty can be weaponised", it crumbles when you consider that Ann's still a teen. She's not a femme fatale and scenes which show her trying to tap into that come off as deliberately awkward
I never considered how Vincent himself was S.A'd in Catherine. I feel like a lot of it gets obfuscated by the story placing emphasis on how him and Katherine are in a rut, and how seemingly perfect Catherine is. I'd say Atlus has a uniquely poor take on S.A regarding male victims, given the almost constant trope of Neo Persona games (3, 4, 5) including an older teacher who falls for our invariably younger protagonist.
I think what upsets me the most is when comics, games, anime, ect. use SA as personal growth moment. When men need character growth they fight a really hard enemy. But for women it's commonly SA. Then they'll have a scene with the woman staring out into the horizon and maybe cry a little and then they brush it off like it never happened!!! That's NOT how to show a woman growing and developing as a person!
There’s a comic for the character Ghost from Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 (2009) about his life before the games. He was sent on a mission to capture a cartel leader named Manuel Roba, who also had pr*stitutes. Roba captured Ghost, tortured him, brainwashed him, and had the prostitutes SA him. Other men that Roba brainwashed also SA’d him as well. I feel like it’s rarely talked about, and I think it was maturely handled.
Yes, I really like how the comics handled it and it's kind of ridiculous to think that CoD comics were more respectful and insightful than most of depictions nowdays. And the fact that we see Simon struggle with the trauma after and has nightmares that make him feel awful is depressingly realistic. Maybe I'm biased because Simon is one of my favourite characters ever but those comics are just very well written in general, at least when it comes to exploring trauma.
Brother, i mean this, you DESERVE more subs. you hit every nail on the head of the topic and had huge nuance to your approach and discussion.
we NEED more creators like you, congrats on the subs this video will inevitably bring!
Such a great video, man. I like that you also pointed out your own biases and faults towards SA.
Super high quality vid dude.
Good Shit👍
Great video as always bro.
Appreciate it bro!
Another game that I think handles the topic of s.a. (csa to be more specific) pretty well is a rpg game called dreaming mary, not many people know about it but its pretty good
Manlybadasshero played it years ago. Very good
Yeah. That game and Misao still haunt me. I swear rpg maker horror games can tell the most heartbreaking stories with the "simplest" of graphics.
6:17: Those guys haven't played any Silent Hill game where symbolic references to such topics exist especially Silent Hill 3.
Silent hill 3 dives deeper into it even silent hill 2 explores it with Angela s character and it's subtle
@@Ricky-f1m Technically all four original games do to some degree.
The first tackled forced pregnancy with Alessa and Lisa being sexually exploited by Kaufmann, the second well you know, the third was bloody open about it and the fourth did something too.
Solid video! I appreciate how in-depth you went in explaining common criticisms and concerns.
Fear & Hunger broadened my horizons for how I might explore this subject matter in my own art, to vent my own frustrations and healing journey. I tied myself in knots thinking of coded ways to portray this violence, because I didn’t think there was a responsible way to portray it directly. I was afraid to look this monster in its eyes. Maybe I don’t have to be.
I think one confounding factor is that different audiences require different amounts of horror to get the necessary reaction. For audiences who are safe from SA, they might require the most extreme depictions; for survivors, Ellie’s scene might spark as visceral a reaction as any scene in Fear & Hunger, because it’s able to latch onto existing traumatic memories.
Im ngl, I hate SA in games, especially when it’s just for story plot/shock factor (looking at you “horror” games) it’s no unnecessary for many stories, every time I find a normal looking game with random SA for plot I always get annoyed
SA is never necessary and many times sudden, so is it being used for shock value or is it making a statement.
Why can't SA be discussed in stories, but murder can?
@@StrawberryCocoaPowder same fucking reason why murders actually go to jail and rapists still have best friends for life
@@Car-x4c murderers can also get away with it though. My point is that I don't think there's topics that should be off-limits in stories. As long as they're accurate and written in good faith, I don't see the issue with discussing SA in a game.
Bruh people like you needa stay out the gaming community with that shit. Horror games are meant to be disturbing.
Never thought I'd hear about Rapelay twice in the same year.
This is probably one of the best takes on fear and hunger ive seen
Rule of Rose is also a game that depicts CSA (underrated horror game but not a masterpiece, definitely has some jank but I recommend emulation if you're interested. Im not going in depth about the game or the subject matter, theres plenty of good videos on YT that do)
Holy fuck, Clara the Mermaid….
the line you said , "and one of them happens to me one of my favorite game" , to transition to ✨ The Last of Us ✨ .... made me tear up ! send a shiver down my spine ! oh man 😢
sorry for lowering the viewer watch statistics i really appriciate this video but can't stomach finishing it, i hope to see some of your other videos on my suggested feed :)
Don't worry about it.
A great job looking into this heavy subject. I know you had to cut half of it, but even still you did amazingly. I'm excited to see you grow.
It is crazy how some still try and defend Rapelay.
Literally who???
@@Hyp3rSonic it's more like a "eh japan has worse than that, this is nothing you snowflakes" arguments that I see some people use
@Peacepinkhair that's because the Japanese are weird
@@herrforehead3745 Japan really does have worse, but damn, this ain't an argument to defent whatever the hell Rapelay is-
🍇 roleplay? it's pretty easy to defend though
Mouthwashing handles it really well, even though it’s not the main focus of the story.
the story pretty much is STARTED with that???????
It is one of the main two factors that set the story in motion and is heavily pushed again and again trough symbolization. I agree that it handles it well but have to disagree on it not being one of the main focuses of the game. It is just addressed in less flashy and jarring ways, which also lead to it going over the head of a lot of people.
i feel like one of mouthwashing's main talking points WAS anya's sexual assault and the violation of her body. i feel like that was one of the main plot points of mouthwashing and how rape culture seeds itself into mundane life as a whole.
@@ter2364 I mean it's kinda second to steering into the asteroid and you don't get to connect A and B until a few hops in when you figure out why you start the game steering in the asteroid.
technically no, but because anya haunts the narrative, so does the story of jimmy’s sa of her
This was a really interesting video, media analysis for games is so important especially when it comes to darker/more complex topics. Subscribed, especially after hearing that you’ll be making a video about Dragon Age Origins next.
I find myself agreeing with your thoughts, although honestly I do struggle with Fear and Hunger’s depiction. I feel torn because I do agree with what your point: I don’t think it’s just for shock value, it contributes to the overall themes and environment of the game, it speaks to the cruelty of primal human behavior or at least an aspect of it. It doesn’t glorify rape nor sexualize it, it presents it as the disgusting cruelty it is. From an artistic perspective I can see and respect that, a lot more than I can with most depictions of S.A.
I suppose part of my personal issue is if it needed to specifically be shown , like do I need to see rape actually literally happen? I guess I just prefer implication or abstraction, like I’ve always preferred how SH2 did it with Angela where it was still horrific and clear what happened but it was abstract enough to where I could understand and empathize with Angela without having to see her actually get raped. Perhaps seeing it would’ve been a more visceral moment but I think that the shock possibly could’ve blunted the empathy and deep sorrow I felt, the act itself would’ve overshadowed the emotional and mental pain that act had caused.
Obviously this is just my opinion, I’m not saying Fear and Hunger did it wrong, I can appreciate Fear and Hunger’s raw unflinching brutality with the subject, I just don’t entirely agree with it. Again, well done video that gave me some food for thought.
F&H overdoes it a lot in my opinion. It feels a little too edgy sometimes. F&H2 on the other hand actually has a very nuanced way of handling the topic with characters who had been through sa but it is never graphically depicted. Seems like the developers took the criticism to heart.
@@9eishitasharma501 I think there NEEDS to be some depictions that take a baseball bat full of nails and swings it at your head violently, metaphorically speaking.
Kinda like how that one arc in Violence Jack also did it (Evil Town's arc) in the manga. It was brutal, it was deeply uncomfortable, and that's the point, it wants you to recoil and flinch from it because it forced you to see it. Contrast the Violence Jack manga's take with the OVA's-- OR RATHER DO NOT EVER WATCH THE OVA Evil Town UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE DISGUSTED BY THE ANIMATORS' CHOICES. The OVA basically chose to go the voyeuristic, fetishy, wtf is wrong with the animators and people who wanted it to be depicted as a normal titillating hentai scene this is literally two mass gang r**e scenes?! and it's given me the ability to realize that, yeah, there's a world of difference between showing it as brutal, and showing it as some perverse supposed-to-be-titilating way.
it might not be the best way (and F&H2 did choose a very good way to tackle the subject again), but I think that it's also... an acceptable way, to portray it. Sometimes you need it to NOT be subtle, to not have the ability to filter it out and look away. F&H1 was visceral as a game experience. F&H2 was cerebral, and part of it was that if you've played F&H1 first, F&H2 uses what the first game taught you to add the extra anxiety, the lurking threat of a more overt attack, and then refuses to ever difuse that ratcheting feeling of waiting for the brutal other shoe to drop to get into your head-- which is very fitting for the deity involved in F&H2's central plot.
And if you know that F&H2 doesn't handle it like F&H1 did and feel relieved, isn't that a bit of a meta commentary on a horrible truth? "At least I don't have to see it here. I can look away from it and be fine just knowing it happened." when someone who's gone through it doesn't have that courtesy. The memory stays. Forever. Even if you can forget it, you'll remember it sometimes.
(maybe I'm attributing more skill than the F&H creator has, but I do think that there's something important about how the first game centered on openly attacking your character and even attacking the player through the absolutely unfair mechanics, while the second game concentrates more on trying to lure you into screwing up and covertly attacking you, and the ways that the SA gets handled isn't a reaction to criticism, but was always going to be the point of it-- there's no madness in open assault, just clear-minded darkness and evil.)
but this is all just an essay of my opinions, mind.
First of all great video man there's no way that you only have 1k subs with such hard work on every video. Also the video doesn't feel like a drag at all because every section it's well put in nothing it's vague or just filler (if you wanna call it that way).
Even for a video that talks about SA it delivers the message about the topic in a very sensitive way. Top notch 10/10 new sub bro waiting for the male sa video, i know somebody already tood you about the videos that talk about it on tv so no point on saying it again.
Just golden content
appreciate the intro, you did a lot of work
if you wanna talk about THE WORSE SA in a game
its dragon age origins, it doesnt show it but the character that we find in the deep roads said that the darkspawn, the game monsters that we face, took her friend away fed her their tainted flesh and blood *freaking r...ped her* 😮💨 and turned her into a broodmother a female darkspawn that, you guessed it, gives birth to darkspawn. Holy molly this game is freaking dark
This is why they will never bring back broodmothers too. Not only because they wanted to move away from misogyny (which is why no one makes fun of Hawke or the Inquisitor for being a woman), the mere existence of broodmothers mean the grey wardens would never accept women.
Though a dev tried to retcon the broodmothers thing and tried to pretend it was never meant to be SA
@@fifthdominion why would the existence of broodmothers mean the grey wardens would never accept women? Even though becoming a warden and being turned into a broodmother both entail using tainted blood, they're still two VERY different processes. Do mean like risk of potential capture? Because I imagine female grey wardens, especially those looking to make their final stand in the Frostback Mountains would rather take their own life than risk capture and potentially being turned into broodmares.
I agree that the treatment of gender in DAO is sometimes conflicting - like the game states that women are treated as relative equals and are well respected, but sexism and themes of SA (towards women) are very much present. Do you mean women being barred from the grey wardens because of societal ideas of gender roles and/or chivarly that sees women as more vulnerable and therefore bars them from the frontlines to "keep them safe"? Because that is one of the reasons women were and still are prevented from being active frontline combatants in militaries in the real world.
@@fifthdominion I remember that! They tried to backtrack and say "oh, Darkspawn aren't made that way" or something, but it's pretty obvious from that entire section of the Deep Roads with Hespith... I don't necessarily hate the Broodmother backstory since I feel that it was handled respectfully (as a horrific and traumatizing incident that was made worse by the fact that Branka ALLOWED IT TO HAPPEN), but a lot of other games do not manage to address S.A. in a tasteful or comprehensively respectful manner.
@@fifthdominion I honetly think women grey women couldn't be turned in broodmother beacuse thr blight ritual but the darkspawn would try anyway until the blight become too much and woman wander looks like darkspawn too
That was probably the most horrified I've ever been at a video game. Funny how I've never remembered it whenever DA:O is mentioned, but as soon as I see the Broodmother brought up...
The leadup was so well done. Through those tunnels echoed the ravings of a woman gone mad, constantly reciting her poem, vaguely describing how the women were taken and violated, and eventually turned. Turned into what...?
And at the end of those tunnels I found the Broodmother. I was so sickened. I suddenly understood what it all meant. I understood that the Darkspawn could not be allowed to live. This could never be allowed to happen again. They all had to die.
Now she does feast, as _she's_ become the beast.
I feel like the goal of fear and hungers SA is very un-emotional, your character isn't supposed to react to the things that happen in the dungeon, it's a strategy game where things like SA startle you but it won't change the characters in an emotional way, another example of this is how you can just saw of a limb without any care becausr at the end of the day thr characters are just tools for the players strategy to play out
I disagree, personally I see it as them succumbing to the madness of the dungeon as no matter what ending you get your characters always seem to have been emotionally changed for the worse do to their experiences in the dungeon, everything that happens in the dungeon is just too overwhelming to deal with all at once and it's not for nothing that the game has a litteral mind meter wich actively decreases the more time you spend in that horrible place, characters can literally have mental breakdowns if their mind gets too low so they do react to it but it's sortoff like encountering so much horrible stuff all at once that you don't really react to it individually and just see it as a giant cluster of awfulness until it becomes too much and you reach your breaking point
@@pandabanaan9208 Really this is only a factor for Cahara, as he canonically does the A ending while the rest do the S endings. Cahara also has a higher chance of getting the Guard SA scene than other characters, this is likely because when you play as another character the first time you meet Cahara is him in a prison cell which implies he actually did get SA'd. This is pushed further by his motives for being there, his pregnant wife is a prostitute and he's trying to get enough money so he can get her out of that and they can live peacefully together. Unfortunately for him, he completes the A ending and helps create the God of Fear and Hunger with his only reward being the God gives him a quick peaceful death, his wife is now doomed to never seeing him again and living her life as a prostitute, who knows what happens to the child. His story focuses very much around horrors in the more sexual nature.
D'arce also likely has a SA experience with the Cave Dwellers due to her antagonizing them, as they're mostly peaceful unless provoked. Her story is mainly the horrors of love(?), she's only there to save Le'gard who is literally Griffith and ultimately he's dead by the time she finds him. Her love for him is so strong she resurrects him, helps him achieve his "god-hood" and that's it, she's a side character to Le'gard's story.
Enki more or less suffers through the horrors but not actually give a crap. He defies the cost of becoming a New God and keeps all the benefits, ultimately being essentially the more knowledgeable man in the world and is still alive by FaH2, just not seen in game. Pretty sure most of his trauma came from what happen to his sister before the game starts.
Ragnavaldr experiences the horrors trying to find Le'garde, seeking revenge for him killing Rag's family, finds he's already dead and decides that none of these horrors should be allowed to live. Dude is basically Doom Slayer, kills every monster he can find to the point that monsters are considered myth by the time of FaH2. He has the title of God of Ultra Violence while being 100% human, he took the horrors and made them cease to exist. Also canonically he adopts Moonless who is best dog and his family lineage exists all the way into FaH2.
Out of all the canon endings, Cahara is the one who goes through the worst of it. The dungeon was so bad for him that by the end of his canon ending, the God of Fear and Hunger told him he's suffered enough and killed him. D'arce likely suffered a lot of trauma from the dungeon, but she's so unimportant to the overall lore nobody knows what happened to her afterwards.
@chadachi3970 I see we're you are coming from but firstly just because the other endings aren't canon doesn't mean they don't matter, since most of the non character specific endings mention how it broke you mentally this seems to have been a theme miro was going for when he wrote the first game
secondly I think it's noteworthy that enki and rag were the ones to not be effected as harshly as the others, ragnvaldr had already witnessed horrors in his backstory and seen his village slaughtered, and even then I wouldn't consider him going on a murder spree to seek out and kill every monster a healthy development since he is still holding onto that wrath he felt towards legarde, it's more like he was already a bit unwell before entering the dungeon and coming there didn't change that, the god of ultra violence as he would eventually be known was doing the world a favor but the fact he has ultra violence in his name probably says enough about his mental health after dedicating his life to fighting abominations, enki on the other hand, well he is anything but normal, he was raised in a dark cult and you can easily tell based on his behavior, though honestly I personally feel like enki was already a bit screwed up just by the conditions he was born into since as far as I can tell he doesn't seem that effected by the events around his sister meaning the dark priests had already effected his mind to a good extend as if you take advantage of her sparing you and have enki kill her when she is off guard he doesn't seem remorseful over it, as it stands enki seeks enlightenment and knowledge rather then human connections and since he was already entangled with darkness from childhood it makes sense he would really be the only one who wouldn't get worse after his time in the dungeon at least in his S ending were he with the help of nosramus discovers the true path to enlightenment rather then the new gods
@@pandabanaan9208 my point is that the game doesn't make the player get emotional with the characters. For example, when you chop off a character's arm in fah neither you or the character is gonna be sentimental about that but maybe if it was a game like tlou and you had to cut off your character's arm it would be much more emotional and personal. It's the difference between playing as if the character is someone you emotionally care about and the character being someone you control. As for the ending, yea they have feelings and stuff but the ending text isn't integrated gameplay it's well... Ending text. There is nothing wrong with this i mean its just like that because its a strategy rpg. Fah has a debuff called depression whilst games like tlou have you see how the character might feel depressed because fah isn't a story (it has story but u know what I mean)
Don't get me wrong the characters go through hell and it's shown in the end but it's not how the gameplay is meant to work, the gameplay is purely strategic
@@chadachi3970 I don't think there is a "canon" for fah, like it exist we just don't know what it is, I think cahara died taking the girl to become the god of fear and hungers as we know ragnavalder and enki survived and we know that d'arce probably helped le'garde ascend. In other words I don't think you can say he survived in his Canon ending imo
Another great video essay on a touchy, but important topic; well done
I'm a bit surprised that Misao wasn't mentioned.
omg I almost forget about Misao for a sec!
i agree,did Misao handle it poorly????
Agree
@@shaichan9211 I wouldn't say so. I mentioned it because it was a major part of the narrative that really helped show a new angle to the horror.
I don't get how most people can be shocked at the S.A. in Fear & Hunger. I think its portrayal is rather childish in most situations, what with the brief but explicit 2 frame animation and the loud blood farting that comes afterward.
Ironically, the dev drew the line at child S.A. but did a very good job at putting that disturbing image in your head.
I think the shock is split between ‘just being amazed it was included at all,’ and ‘getting legitimate flashbacks from it.’ The inclusion of bleeding at a mechanical level is an unusually intimate and specific detail that could prompt traumatic memories.
It’s not necessarily a moral judgement. We just can’t always control how hard these depictions hit us. It’s like when war veterans get set off by happy fireworks shows.
@Densoro Yeah, I didn't mean to speak for people who get triggered by this content.
More so, the people who think the game's inclusion of S.A. makes it "so much more dark and brutal." Meanwhile, I just think, "What makes this so different to the many sleazy monster rape flash games?"
You’re right. Most of it is pretty shock value-ish which im glad the creator toned down for the 2nd game so it’s not obnoxiously in your face
and also to add, the sa parts basically just serve as “oohh creative brutal nasty death” for the game so theres no character trauma involved exactly. character backstories in F&A that involve SA is different tho (i mean one difference obviously is they dont die from it right afterwards)
@@johnskelington I don't really want to delve into this topic, but here goes...
I think there's a big difference between fantasy "rape" and someone actually being sexually violated. Unless you're talking about something different, those sleazy monster rape flash games you mentioned are made for the purpose of porn. Everyone playing them understands the context they're in. You play a sexy girl and your objective, or at least your side objective, is to get fucked by all the different monsters blocking your path. There are no lasting consequences and the girl is depicted as enjoying the act, or at least not terribly inconvenienced by it. It's all make believe, although I could certainly see an argument made for the potentially incredibly dangerous views those games might impress upon their audience, about how women will eventually be into it etc.
Some people like to role play rape scenes. Some people even like to role play being raped. I really doubt those people would enjoy being actually raped without their consent, in a situation where they're actually in danger. So while I can certainly understand your dislike towards games that use these topics for entertainment, for me it's fairly easy to understand why the inclusion of rape in F&H was so shocking. It was depicted as traumatizing, both physically and psychologically. It was made horrific and real. My guess is that most men won't really understand the gravity of sexual assault until they see what it's like to be a victim.
I'm sorry for the long post, and I'm sorry if I came across as combative. I just wanted to get this off my chest. And now I'd rather leave this subject for another day.
I feel Mouthwashing is another good example of nonsexualized, good, realistic display S.A. and it's impact on a victim that isn't said directly, but definitely evident once all the pieces fall into place. Also such a good game generally
Keep it up bro
24:00 Tourist, exhibit A
Excellent video! You deserve more subscribers.
I think in general, video games are expected to be "satisfying" more than other forms of art do, due to it's game nature and the expectations we have of a game : to be fun and bring the player satisfaction for resolving the situations they are faced with. It's interactibility also makes it feel different, as a player of video games has more agency in the story being told than a movie watcher.
I am passionate about disturbing art, and adament about the fact art doesn't always have to bring positive emotions. My introduction to this was Otto Dix's Skat Players, a disjointed collage artwork representing injured, amputated, roughly fixed up WWI veterans playing cards. I first hated how ugly it was and how uncomfortable it made me, and grew to love it for the attention brought to details and how these details told a very gruesome, sad, despairing story about these men who lost their ability to enjoy life in a senseless war. Art is about conveying a message, trying on someone else's perspective on a subject, and sometimes these messages are bleak, cynical, desperate. They are hard to take in and yet so true, vivid and important that a good realization of it will feel like a punch to the guts.
I guess that's how video games have more expectations put on them when it comes to sensitive subjects, because you can't be as cynical if you want the end result to be somehow satisfying. As a recent art form, it also hasn't yet built as much credibility in the public eye as an interactive form of art that can be used to pass strong messages, rather than just an enjoyable hobby.
It's worth noting that if you fail the QTE in that Tomb Raider scene, the guy simply kills Lara.
23:22 heyyy bud... you think uh... you think you mightve forgotten to pixelate somethin here?
I think Silent Hill 2 is an interesting case of S.A. being baked into the worldbuilding and narrative of a game. Angela and her plot is the most obviously explicit in the game but its also a major theme of James' too.
Ellie in the tv show nearly broke my heart in that scene. Never been so relieved to see someone get hit by a machete.
I felt your last video was a little undercooked (probably because there is already a lot of good stuff on the subject), but I really like your nuanced and level-headed takes here. Keep it up.
I wish I could've seen the cut cultural sensitivity section. That aside, great video.
Omg ive literally looked all OVER the place for this vdeo, I watched it some time ago and then I wwanted to watch it again but I COULD NOT for the life of me find it again!
i really wish you talked about silent hill 2 in this video, it has some of the best representation i’ve seen. if you haven’t played the game yet, you should. both the original and the recent remake are amazing (and stand-alone, so you don’t have to play the first.)
3:25 why is there a random hollow knight clip?
It used to be a clip from season 3 of the The Sopranos but it got flagged so i just replaced it with the first thing i found
@ oh, ok. Thanks
i love funger, but if you are sensitive to SA, i probably would NOT play it. The scene this guy is talking about is rare and hidden early in the game, but here is the thing, the dungeon isn't just a dungeon, and it goes really deep. And down in the deep there are SOME HORRIFIC creatures that DO HORRIFIC things if you die to them, and its guaranteed(harvestman). So just be prepared if you are going to play the game blind.
I was a die hard tomb raider fan until the reboot. And it was the comments of "you want to protect her" that made me never want to support it
Bro, screw the 500 subs, you deserve more :)
Coulda had a whole chapter on David Cage.
Fair warning, I'm about to YAP.
Great video, as with any sort of topic I think any form of media should be able to cover SA, but the way some writers handle it can be pretty terribly done. Obviously if a game's entire premise is around being some kind of hentai plot then they're clearly not taking it seriously, but some writers (like with heavy rain) will take a mildly serious game and insert SA as some kind of weird light hearted joke moments with none of the actual seriousness the topic should be handled with.
I do like how Fear and Hunger handles it though, the game itself explores all manner of horror and the truth of the matter is that SA is a form of horror that some people face. The game has body horror, mutilation, eldritch, everything really so it makes sense that sexual horror is also something the game includes.
Even FaH2 which toned down a lot on the SA stuff explores sexual horror in characters like Daan and Marina, the former's parents being in a sex cult and the latter being a trans character. They (along with all human characters) later in the game have "monster" forms if not saved which tie into sexual horror relating to their character, the monster forms in the second game relating to the character's darkest fears of how people see them. Abella if played as also has a scene where if she sleeps in a particular bed, another character will attempt to SA her and leads straight into a fight (she wins and literally busts his balls).
Only thing to point out in the Fear and Hunger portion is that the gods are separated into groups which are the Old Gods, Ascended Gods and New Gods.
(This really has little to do with the actual video topic, so it's just a lore thing for anyone interested.)
Old gods are more like eldritch beings like Cthulu or Yog-Sothoth, just the presence of them is enough to cripple the mind and this is shown in ending B where even if you win... you die. These gods are Sylvian, Gro-goroth, Vinushka, Rher and God of the Depths, the last one is dead at this point though.
Ascended gods are All-mer and the God of Fear and Hunger, they're humans who truly ascended to god hood rivaling the power of the old gods. All-mer is basically Fear and Hunger Jesus and the God of Fear and Hunger is tied to ending A of the game, which is canon for 1 character.
New gods are explicitly only in Fear and Hunger 1, they're humans are have obtained godlike powers but their minds become distorted and embody what their soul type is. They are far below the Old and Ascended gods in terms of actual power.
At first glance I thought this was titled "San Andreas in other games"
Beyond Two Souls was absolutely atrocious. There is an attempted SA scene, but there are some devastating voice clips recorded and available on the web. Apparently in the early draft the player was able to just let it happen instead of the game now locking you into fighting off the assailants. Considering that, the fact that that the main character had fully modelled nude body and that Elliot Page's childhood photos were used without his consent... Yikes. Oh and the main character is underage at that point too.
ALSO, when the mc has a traumatic flashback of when it near happened and starts crying and freaking out, the game's main love interest (a piece of shit through and through that the narrative just expects you to like anyway) JUST WALKS OUT ON HER WITHOUT A WORD BECAUSE 'NO SAX? I'M OUT.' Doesn't even ask what's wrong, just leaves.
To be fair from the boyfriend's perspective, she was normal up to that point and has ghost superpowers. If I was the dude and a girl I know could kill me in 2 seconds started freaking out mid conversation. I would leave too.
@@almalone3282 but it's not her powers, it's Aiden. And to lead to the scene you need to have Aiden not do anything at all, otherwise Ryan leaves mid-dinner. And he knows cause he was the military guy who took her to the training grounds from the lab.
@kiroava6277 *The girl I'm dating is spiritually connected to a ghost monster who could kill me in 2 seconds*
Yea, my point still stands. Leaving is a completely reasonable thing to do in that situation.
@@almalone3282 why are you so keen on excusing a fictional character from a badly written video game made by a creator who has a history of objectifying women? You're right, you probably wouldn't stay, but I dare say you wouldn't even date a girl who is this dangerous. Point is, at no point did Ryan ever showed being afraid of Jodie nor Aiden, not while being the military tough guy, not on the missions, not after the truth about Somalia came out. The only reason he left was because she was initially willing to sleep with him but suddenly wasn't. This is literally the 'mixed signals' excuse.
@@almalone3282 Coward, I guess. I'd be more worried that she's upset and I did something wrong than thinking I'M GONNA DIE FUCK RUN FOR YOUR LIIIIIIIIIFE if my GF broke down and her murderghost started acting out thinking I'm going to hurt her. I'd back away (and stay far away from escape routes), but I'd be trying to help talk her down, not being a POS that ditches MY GIRLFRIEND WHO'S PANICKING AND CRYING.
I constantly hyperfixate about the Madison portrayal because honestly she’s such wasted potential and The Doc/Sexy Girl are both so abysmal when it comes to trauma and sexual horror. If you want something awesome for Madison, just check out the Taxidermist chapter as that one is somehow peak fiction and covers sexual horror respectfully enough. And not only that but it’s a WAYY better intro for her than Sleepless Night, bc that chapter is just cut content backstory that explains nothing for her (she originally had trauma from being a war journalist which is why she only feels safe sleeping in motels - bc she’s constantly on the move, bc “staying in one place for too long” makes her feel subconsciously unsafe. It MAKES sense but it got cut soooo)
I gotta be honest, I don’t hate what the Doc chapter tried to be, as I actually think the fight scene and the concept of making Madison’s journey about trauma and how she can’t stop getting herself involved in these situations is a very interesting idea, but the problem is that it’s always so gratuitous and oddly meaningless, and she never really reflects on those events past a super shallow throwaway line. I think they really needed to keep the Taxidermist chapter in the main game and give Madison survivor’s guilt to fuel her story, so The Doc would awaken the trauma she got from that chapter.
Also it really sucks that Madison always has to play dead and bait SA for her to overpower The Doc when she beats the shit out of him in the fight, yet with the Taxidermist - a man twice his size and strength, she simply can use a chainsaw and kill him without any weird gratuitous tricks, which was a pretty unique approach. The deaths in the Doc chapter are also really gratuitous and I think it should’ve been a double kill scenario to make it more tragic and less fetish fuel
Editing is great 👍
Like I get wanting to tell a story with sensitive subject matter, but I feel like I've seen "Thing portrays SA really bad" like 500 times and "Thing portrays SA really well" 0 times that I can remember. It just seems like more trouble than it's worth.
Why do i feel like i saw this video before?
With Maddison it COULD have been shown the mix of reporting horrors or her own past manifesting into her fears. All very logical for a news reporter reporting on killers who are yet to be caught. Its almost like there could have been so many ways to give that scene meaning and give the pervs their kicks. It isn't a psychological leap to make some conclusions about her. I think that serves to make it all the more infuriating.
This whole time I thought David was just a cannibal
i dont think implemented is the best word lol
Lacey’s games talks about some of it too.
I mean, does it make sense to compare niche fetish porn with dramatic stories?
I think that you can write about dark topics but do your best to not to just do it for shock value or in a disrespectful way. I don't mind I Spit On Your Grave or Hard Candy. Some things are better left implied instead of shown in my opinion. Not saying that's always the case of course.
I think the dream from heavy rain was to explain why she checks into the hotel. Idk why it had to be weird tho
19:17 there are in fact far worse games out there than this. Though normally you're the victim instead. You can find people playing them on youtube heavily censored of course. You cannot even name them in the comment sections for obvious reasons. Heck one of which released on Steam.
Very eloquently spoken.
There is a mass amount of visual light novel or dating simulator games produced in japan that contain romanticized SA scenes (many using minors). I hate the fact that these games are so globally available that you can buy them on steam. "Song of Saya", is a visual novel game containing scenes of straight up p3d0filia. In fact, the version of Song of Saya on US Steam is not even the original version because the real one is not CENSORED.
wish this video was out when mouthwashing was released tbh (pensive emoji)
My dumbass really thought bro was gonna talk about San Antonio till I clicked the video
Yes Ellie was traumatised from that I mean she killed hunters , FEDRA and other people and I actually felt for her even my grandma was watching gameplay that time she acknowledge how strong that girl is , She is so well written well until part 2 and fear and hunger well its just disturbing fantasy even for a rpg maker like I was shocked when you go to dungeons ... well you know them brutes and debuff