Yamcha's Cheating Heart? - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 2!
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- Опубліковано 30 гру 2017
- Dragon Ball Dissection December for 2017 comes to a close with the shocking revelation of Trunks's parentage! Did Vegeta and Blooma need to be his parents? Does this fan-favorite couple work? And what about Yamcha? Does it make sense for him to be cheater? Or did life (ie. Toriyama) just screw him?
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![Japan Doesn't Like Tien [DBG #1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/42HNvl0e26I/mqdefault.jpg)
The fact that Yamcha’s voice actor confronted Toryama about how he handles Yamcha speaks volumes about how much of a whiplash this was.
I wish there were a way to know how the original audience reacted to this, since they were exposed to the original DB content infinitely more than the western one.
Well I just gave my two cents. I was someone that grew up with the series from the beginning instead of starting at Z.
_"I wish there were a way to know how the original audience reacted to this"_
I always wanted to know especially how Yamcha fans and Bulma fans adjusted to being forced apart and how Vegeta fans suddenly had to reconcile being forced into a "romance". How awkward was it? Did people get upset? Were letters written? How long did it take to come up with Vegebul? I'd love to know because everyone was rightly blindsided.
I didn't adjust. It was just absolute crap that happened for Trunks to be there and completely ruined part of why I watched the series to begin with.
Like most people in the west, I was first introduced to Dragon Ball through DBZ. But looking back at this point in the series, even I remember that Bulma and Vegeta becoming a couple came right out of the blue.
I could tell that she and Yamcha were already an established couple and so Bulma joining with Vegeta was unexpected.
But then again throughout the Saiyan and Freeza arcs, Yamcha had been largely marginalised whereas Vegeta had become infinitely popular. So on the other hand Bulma and Vegeta getting together wasn't surprising.
Edward1817: I can understand that, did others around you feel the same way? As much as I'm a Vegebul fan for shallow reasons they're only together to produce another SS because Kami forbid a non-Saiyan fighter be too important let alone be remotely close to Goku in strength again. What I dislike most is Yamcha doesn't just stay weaker, isn't just needlessly smeared but its that he stays a punchline _within_ the series. What the hell did he do to Toriyama to warrant this?
Yeah Toriyama turning Yamcha into a cheater is the sort of thing bad fanfic writers do to get their favorite ship, not something a professional does.
+Born2Run
It’s still equally as contrived and out-of-character for Yamaha, though.
It's like those stupid Harry Potter fanfics that ship Ginny and Malfoy. Making Harry some sort of domineering douchebag even though that's really not as personality at all
Yasuda1986 The fact that there are fanfics that turn Yamcha into not just a heavy cheater, but a domestic abuser, I can see the comparison.
It’s funny you mention that... because Trunks’ whole existence seems like something right out of a fanfic.
The future son of two completely random characters who travels from the future, wields a sword, effortlessly kills a villain who was previously a threat, and has a unique transormstion that was (at the time) a rare one-off thing...
Toriyama didn't even like Vegeta though.
I present part of an official Daizenshuu supplemental interview.
Tsuru (Bulma) : One day, all of a sudden, she married Vegeta and gave birth to Trunks… “Huh? What just happened here?” is how it felt. (laughs)
Horikawa (Vegeta) : There wasn’t even any sort of foreshadowing.
Furuya (Yamcha) : At that time, I just wanted to leave the studio and go home. (laughs)
Tsuru (Bulma) : However, after that, I tried to bring myself to love Vegeta, but… it was a struggle. (laughs)
So all three VAs involved agree it's bullshit.
If this doesn’t prove that Veget x Bulma was a bullshit ship at the start I don’t know what does
Do you have a link to this interview? I want to start using it in discussions, lmao.
@@animationdude9 still better than sasuke x Sakura
@@vandad13 if you're gonna set the bar that low might as well lay down on the ground
When all of your official voice actors (who at this point would probably understand their characters pretty well) think your story beat makes zero sense, you've really messed up.
You know what's even worse MistareFusion? Yamcha was confirmed by Toriyama to "aaaalyways" have bad luck with women, he also confirmed that he *never fully got over his fear of women.* *How can a guy who supposedly cheated be afraid of women?!*
His being fear of women always seemed to be bullshit to me. He had a reputation as a ruthless bandit who had no problems robbing and threatening the lives of children as we saw when he first met Goku. And he had no problem's putting his hands on Chi-Chi either.
Chichi was also a child. As for the rest, that was the joke. He was a ruthless dessert bandit, but couldn't even speak to women. That was the entire point.
Toriyama doesn't think much he just backs over his good storytelling with a truck.
@@Drums_of_Liberation Women and girls are different
Toriyama meant for Yamcha to be Bisexual from the start and he is cheating Bulma with men. Toriyama is actually a prodigy at sentimental writing and he will only be understood in 100 years
As a Yamcha fan since the original Dragon Ball days: *THANK YOU!* This perfectly encapsulates YEARS of frustration with the destruction of Yamcha's character, top of the list being the 'cheating' nonsense.
Also, why was Bulma suddenly okay with being with a training-obsessed guy when Vegeta showed up? She raged if Yamcha took off to train for a month at a time back in the Dragon Ball days, but with Vegeta, it's totally fine for him to go train off-planet for a year or more? Come on now.
Cause she loves Vegeta so much that she is now more understandi-Nah I'm kidding Toriyama just doesn't care.
Because she wasn't with vegeta either lol. When they all meet up to fight the androids they ask where vegeta is and she's like "How should I know? You think I'd live with that jerk?". They didn't have an actual relationship until after the cell games.
wasnt the point of bulmas quest to find a perfect boyfriend...she was so naive about boys she had no idea they had no tails...to her yamcha even looking at another girl meant he was a cheater even if it wasn't true...she was very insecure and sensitive and thus lost hope on men on earth from her first boyfriend..shes that crazy........so in a way theres an irony and growth that she found an alien instead whose gokus rival evil and doesn't pay her attention...at least she knows he snot cheating on her..hes all about the fight... so I guess bulma was always meant to be a bitch..i mean its not like she used goku or oolong or yamcha and was selfish since day 1..oh wait...its sorta her core character trait...also there is a spoiled brat type connection she has to vegeta who like herself works hard to achieve his goals came from money and is a little off their rocker.....he wants to beat goku and while we see that as weird she sees it as a noble goal to become a hero sorta in his own way...by training vegeta is proving he will help the earth so in her eyes hes as big a hero as goku ...
@Zesanactor Over-5 it is true
@@imarealone_0076 Thank you! Finally someone who speaks my language ;)
Toriyama wanted to make Bulma and Vegeta as unpredictable and unexpected as he could. The problem was that it made no sense. Not only was she getting with a killer, who was partly responsble for killing her boyfriend, but she would constantly get at Yamcha for training and not giving her attention, when Vegeta was even worse at that. 😂
On the subject of the whole Yamcha cheats thing, Toriyama has been contradictory towards his role with women for yeeeeears. "He cheats!" says Toriyama. "He has gotten a job at a host bar" He adds. "but wait, he also has never gotten over his fear of women and had terrible luck with them as it was!" He concludes. In spite of Yamcha stating he had a girlfriend by the end of the Cell arc.
For western fans who started with the Z portion and were ignorant of the first half, all they had to go on was Bulma's word and the horrific dub dialogue changes which stated Yamcha cheated on Bulma on the regular AND coming off as arrogant during his fight with the Saibaman. To Z fans, he was ruined the second he was even mentioned, much less shown. And as stated in the video, Bulma is the more likely one to cheat. And her words should be taken with a massive grain of salt. Their relationship was toxic from the beginning. Its no wonder she went for Vegeta, who is a loner and has no interest in mingling or interacting with others. She could have him all to herself AND he wouldn't attract female attention in-universe the way Yamcha did. Besides, how do you justify to your kid that you banged a genocidal and murderous space pirate to conceive them and come out looking like the good guy?
Yamcha, for all the memes and jokes thrown at him, both harmless and mean spirited, has shown himself to be nothing short of a good guy and a great friend. He didn't begrudge Bulma's relationship with Vegeta, he realized that he was the weakest link and opted to take care of his oldest friend instead of being on the battlefield and most of all, it was he who told Trunks about Vegeta going ballistic and wanting to avenge his death. He didn't need to do that. Could've used the opportunity to bad mouth both Vegeta and Bulma to him, but he didn't.
I feel bad for Yamcha and admire him as a character. Dude's gotten a rough hand at life and he's still cheerful and friendly with people. He isn't even among my favourites, but damn. I have to say I always find it odd and even ridiculous when fans try to paint Bulma and Vegeta as this super romantic pairing when it was clearly a one night stand and Vegeta didn't even give two shits about Bulma or baby Trunks during the Cell arc. Its hard to say when he actually started caring about them. The start of the Buu arc made it seem like he tolerated them as opposed to loving them, since Goku's dead and he didn't have a goal to climb towards.
I bet that Yamcha's "cheating" was just some chick recognizing him on the street as that brilliant baseball player and starting to wrangle around him while Yamcha tried getting rid of her but he got seen by Bulma which led to another one of their "Bulma is overreacting" fights. That's the only way I can imagine that going. Yamcha is way too much of a loser with girls to the point where he was unable to pick one up long after splitting with Bulma...
comment is a year old but it still rings so true. i really wouldn't be shocked if bulma did over react like that, and to get back at yamcha, decided to screw vegeta only to then get pregnant. now she HAS to continue the narrative of "yamcha the cheater" to cover her ass and yamcha being such a nice guy, doesn't want to cause trouble for the group so just keeps it to himself what happened. hell, i wouldn't even be shocked if bulma being the one to cheat on him was an open secret.
I'd say that after years of Bulma accusing him with no reason and always fight him and speak bad of him with their friends, he may have had cheated in a moment of emotional distress.
I read the manga, but can't remember it ever being stated that yamcha cheated, only that they broke up. But I read that section over a year ago, so I could be wrong
Yamcha playing baseball is not canon
@@HistoryandReviews It's canon in Super anime. Canon became sort of a meaningless term. To be fair, canon always was a meaningless term since it was invented by the fans for the fans to make better sense of stories they engaged in. With both manga and anime having their own separate canon now, any discussion about canon is utterly meaningless at the moment.
Except for the movies. That shit be motherfucking witchcraft and non-canon forever
My head cannon is that Yamcha kept hearing this weird Lance-like voice in his head telling him to "RUN" at various points in his life and finally took it to heart. Seriously, it did always bother me that Blooma spends from the end of the Saiyan arc to the end of the Namek arc pining for Yamcha to be wished back just to drop him like a hoi poi capsule for a guy who, as you pointed out, is more or less a sociopath who continues along those lines until many MANY humblings in the future. #poordolt
All Toriyama had to do was have Trunks say that Bulma and Yamcha just grew apart as time went on - and realized they weren't right for each other. That way, no one is the bad guy, Yamcha's lovable idiot persona is in tact, and Bulma isn't the victim of any infidelity. It'd just have been 2 adults mutually ending things.
Two adults actually behaving in a mature and responsible manner... where's the drama in that? :-p
@@EmeralBookwise Lmao true. But like Lance says in the video, that's character assassination. Yamcha's just a sleazy asshole in the alternate timeline, and nothing like he's been depicted as previously.
As a complete and absolute yamcha fanboy, this was the most cathartic video I've ever seen. Honestly man, thank you, you don't know how good it felt to see I'm not the only one that noticed how much he got crapped on.
Same, except coming from a fanGIRL
You most certainly are not the only one, I've been stating this very same point for well over a decade with Vegeta fanboys/girls
yamcha memes aside and dbz fans only don't get yamcha was in essence gokus first rival and foe turned good guy martial artist..hes key in the first arc...he was shit on from then on...its pretty sad..dude has no purpose and even his one role of being with bulma fails..smdh
@@razkable Yamcha had so much potential i will never understand why he got pushed to the side so much. He's one of the most interesting character in the franchise and one of the most unique too in terms of fighting style. I'm a big fan of the wolf fang fist.
I wish we could've seen more of him it's really disappointing to see such a character get thrown in the garbage.
@@HeyMomonia heck The seiyuu of yamcha who's also a famous singer wrote multiple songs based around yamcha for crying out loud. Does Vegeta have that? I don't think so. also the wolf fang fist is at least a hand to hand martial arts technique and not some form of ki ball/beam like everyone else's moveset.
As a Yamcha fan I thank you, I got 4 things I want to add:
1. In an interview years later Toriyama implied that Yamcha in fact still has his issues with women. WHich makes this even weirder.
2. Most of the Yamcha is a playboy stuff comes from Funimation. Christopher Sabat has mentioned that he does not like Ymacha and if you compare certain unflattering Yamcha scenes in the dub and in the original Japanese you'll find that Yamcha typically looks a whole lot better in the latter. It's particularly notable because it's only in Dragonball Z and Super, in the first Dragonball anime, they don't really try and skew things like that.
3. I think the anime handles the Yamcha/Bulma/Vegeta thing much better and does so without having Yamcha cheat. It doesn't really make that much more sense but at least it explores it a bit and doesn't try to make Yamcha look as bad.
4. It's notable that Android/Cell arc is seen as a sort of peak in popularity for the show in the west and that it is the arc that really makes Yamcha look bad. It probably does a good deal explaining why Yamcha tends to get a lot of hate in the West, because this stuff is a lot of people's primary exposure to the character.
Isabelle Crawford Yeqh Sabat always goes out of his way to make Yamcha look bad. "Yeah let's go see Yamcha."
Tbf, Sabat is doing for Western fans what Toriyama is doing for the Japanese audience.
In regards to point 4, I think that only applies to people who never gave OG DB a chance.
Like many I started with Z...by the time I got to episode 5 in DB I was sold...but more importantly I found myself asking "how did this awesome character turn into such a wimp later on? He does a few stupid things here but its played for laughs! What went wrong..."
TL:DR I find it hard to believe anyone would flat out hate Yamcha down to his core after watching the entirety (or even just the begining) of DB!
You hi
Bulma flirted with many guys and nothing happens but when yamcha is talking to a woman, bulma loses her shit. I guess trunks only heard one side of a story which ... was bulma's.
If anyone cheated, it would be Bulma. Was trying to get with General Blue while dating Yamcha, she tried to hit on Zarbon DAYS after Yamcha was killed.
She literally tried to hit on Zarbon while the latter was in her path to bring her boyfriend back... That's what makes it even worst.
Yamcha did nothing wrong: the episode.
Only unlike Griffith from Berserk, it's true. Yamcha _did nothing wrong._
As far as Toriyama is concerned Yamach did wrong by existing. Which is cruel irony since he created him in the first place.
@@spartanq7781 I will never understand why toriyama hates yamcha so much.
@@HeyMomonia It's not so much that he hates him. He just doesn't know what to do with him. So he craps on him then fizzles him out like the others.
@@spartanq7781 I always felt like he hated the character. He doesn't do anything important after the first act of db and his character is completely destroyed in z.
Also he never treated any other z fighter as badly as he did with yamcha.
Krillin had a lot of moments in the saiyen and the freeza saga, he also got married to 18 and have a child, piccolo still got awsome fights until he fought 17 after that he became more a mentor figure, tien put up some fight with nappa even though it didn't do much, was there to fight the cyborbs and even got a cool moment stopping cell for as long as he could.
What did yamcha get? Got killed by a saibaman, got stabbed by gero and his girlfriend since he was 16 is going with another man and have a son together.
All he wanted was to get married and have kids but even that he can't have.
I really wish you could prove me wrong on that but yamcha got treated so unfairly for so long (talking about the db era too) that i strongly believe he really dislike this yamcha.
Despite this people say Toriyama hates Vegeta? This point shows he must hate Yamcha.
Nah, that title goes to tien
@@theradionicrevival8068 How though? Tien is far more relevant even today than yamcha
He fought against nappa, fought against the androids with the rest, tried his best to stop cell and was even there for a short moment against buu
You know what yamcha did? Died against a fucking saibaman, almost got killed by gero and lost his love interest.
How does toriyama hates tien more than yamcha again? And these exemples are just in z
@@HeyMomonia yamcha is basically comic relief, which is at least something
Tien is like nothing dude. Trains nonstop and is supposed to be the goku of humans yet gets no new moves, powerups, good fights or even really much screentime or development as a person. All that shit happened mostly in OG DB but after that? Mostly just downhill of getting bodied and spamming his one attack than getting pushed to the back burner. Like deadass even in super, goku literally forgot to even ask tien to be a fighter in TOP, like he basically was just looking for roshi and found tien by luck. Yamcha’s joke status and connection to the rest of the cast at least constantly keeps him relevant.
Tien gets constantly shafted and pushed to the back burner 24/7
Its poked fun at in stuff like fighterZ, he literally has so much potential and like the coolest moves, in a better written series this dude would’ve been something amazing.
It feels as though (to me at least) that tien’s only
Point in inclusion these days is purely just to show how much stronger everyone else is than him.
That could be said for most characters but he definitely got it the hardest compared to the rest. Like he fights multiple times in super and it took til TOP for him to do literally anything substantial.
Yamcha and tien are almost tied in my book but i feel like being used for comic relief is a lot better than barely being used at all and when you ARE used its basically just for fodder.
DBZA’s impact on the franchise can’t be understated cause i swear when i was a kid, dbza didn’t even really exist yet. And most of the kids my age hadn’t seen dragonball so tien was mostly just known to us that guy who died and did basically nothing for the whole series and held back cell for a bit. He wasn’t a bad character to us, just a forgettable nobody
Like i feel like DBZA genuinely did a great job highlighting him as a character and give him more respect and depth than the original canon did and thats sad.
Like can anyone even quote a non dbza tien line from Z or super off the top of their heads?
Like yamcha may be a joke, but he’s so famous/infamous for that that it’s impossible to forget him. He’s quite literally the poster boy for how toriyama handles side characters, for better or worse, it’s something that keeps him at least a constant thing in DB fans minds. But in becoming the poster boy, other neglected characters like tien kinda just live in that shadow which is worse in my opinion.
Being in yamchas shadow is quite literally the worst thing that a character can be reduced to
Sorry for the rant but this stuff genuinely sucks for me cause I actually like tien lmao
Shits sad
@@HeyMomonia like yamchas death pose is one of the most iconic deaths in DB (not for the right reasons) but its been memed to death literally everywhere that even people who havent seen dbz can recognize it.
Thats way more than you can say for most DB characters, especially tien lmao
@@theradionicrevival8068 I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one
I feel like a character with so much potential being reduced as a joke is a worse fate
Tbh i would've rather have yamcha just getting married and have a kid and we could barely see him after that it would be fine at this point
I wish he was still with bulma and had a kid at least i would know he got the happy ending
At least tien has some sort of relevency as a fighter even if it's just to lose and make other look strong
I don't think yamcha had a single fight after the cell saga (outside of the super manga of course)
So not only did yamcha not accomplished his dream to get married and have a family but he lost all relevency as a fighter and became stupid
In the og dragon ball he wasn't necessarly stupid he was more arrogant while fighting
Now he's dumb and weak
Tien is the same character but as a jobber
"I don't care if he can perform cunnilingus in 12 different languages."
cut to a picture of Krillin waggling his tongue.
And now we know why 18 slept with him in the first place.
I'm still not even sure why the reader is supposed to sympathise with Bulma in the first place. She has a history of having poor judgement when it comes to her crushes, from falling for Yamcha when he was still trying to kill them with a sword and later with a rocket launcher, to Zarbon, to Vegeta. It's perhaps one of her most glaring character flaws aside from her temper.
And let's be real, the faithfulness or lack thereof of Yamcha does little to actually justify Bulma hooking up with Vegeta. They are separate events. Yamcha being a bad person does not suddenly make Vegeta anywhere near a sensible decision, and it's even worse in the anime where they also have that scene with Bulma finding the exterminated Namekian village (I think it's the same one Vegeta slaughtered earlier) and the scene back on Earth where Vegeta beats up five-year-old Gohan while Bulma is right there watching it happen.
Lets all just say Toriyama doesn't care about Yamcha. This killed his character so completely he could never recover. He could had just have them separate because of their fighting. That Yamcha and Bulma broke up already. As well as Bulma seeing a soft side of Vegeta. This is so ham fisted it's irritating. Even non Yamcha fans should see it this way.
Just think there are actually people who feel that Goku should have ended up with Bulma instead of Chichi.
those people are single...@@joesinister
I actually always thought bulma was just not into yamcha anymore because I only knew the story of this arc from a videogame letsplay I saw on this plattform(yeah, I never actually watched dragonball as a kid) and I missed certain details. This is the most stupid shit really.
@@joesinister Unlike Yamcha you can make a good argument for why Goku doesn't deserve better
Oh boy, this is gonna be good! Yamcha really did get the short end of the stick in the Cell arc- losing his girl to Vegeta of all people, getting a hole through his stomach by 20, and getting his arm broken by Cell Jr.... Poor dolt. Clarly the plot demanded Trunks have Saiyan heritage, so Vegeta was the most logical choice of parent. I do wish they gave Yamcha more character closure though....maybe pair him up with Lunch? Doesn't make Bulma look like all that great a person either- to reject Yamcha for Vegeta.
Born2Run To be fair, there was really no point for him to be out there, plus it would've left Goku with one less defender, seeing as he was still not recovered from the heart virus. Also, I would argue that ALL of the human characters were made to look cowardly at some point during this arc. Remember Krillin stayed back trembling in his boots after 18's fight with Vegeta, while Trunks, Tienshinhan, and Piccolo were all taken out by 17. Also, when they were asked by Goku whether or not they would use the RoSaT for training, Tienshinhan turned it down, for a very similar reason to what Yamcha gave for not going out to try and fight Cell, which was that even if he trained it wouldn't do him any good anyway.
The latter part of Z was simply ALL about the Saiyans, and the humans were designated fodder the moment Toriyama opted not to have them learn the Kaioken, or even have Dr. Briefs/Bulma build a gravity room for them to use to train in (since Vegeta was clearly monopolizing the one Dr. Briefs built to replace the one that was destroyed on Namek). I've argued many times, often with Vegeta-stans, that there's a HIGH probability that each of the human fighters could've at least become strong enough to fight final form Frieza by the start of the Android saga, if Toriyama had saw fit to give them similar development that he did the Saiyans that whole arc.
Man... you just made me imagine if it was GOTEN coming from the future instead. Wouldn't have been as cool or as interesting as Vegeta's son, but it would probably have made more sense to be honest...
@@Crimson_Titan With Krillen it doesn't make him look pathetic. When refuses to belp against 17 and 18 he's being the reasonable one. Could really blame him for cowering?
@@spartanq7781 I didn't say it was pathetic, my point of bringing it up was to point out how people will openly criticize Yamcha as being a coward for not getting involved against Cell or the Androids. But will ignore the fact that Krillen did pretty much the same thing for the same reason, or will excuse it with an excuse or justification that they won't bother to apply to Yamcha.
@@Crimson_Titan Oh well then good. #Yamchadeservesmore
Did not know the date was the same as Terminator's. That's just too specific to be a coincidence.
I also have trouble believing Yamcha was a cheater. Even if Toriyama decided it, it just makes absolutely no sense. Like, that is one of those plot points that I cannot feasibly accept, no matter how much I try to headcanon it. It feels wrong, honestly. Like, trying to explain it feels wrong. And I don't feel like I can say that for much of the story.
That being said, the one problem about actual discussion I've seen about this is it often kind of goes into demonising territory. Like, demonising Toriyama because he decided to make Yamcha look bad. Or just kind of assuming everything you don't like about the character is some kind of massive conspiracy theory and not just the fickle ideas of an author writing week-by-week without thinking too much about deeper implications for a character he long since stopped caring too much about.
I completely forgot about the cheating aspect. You or I could feasibly come up with any number of tiny story adjustments to make Velma (I don't understand naming ships but can't they do Gotenks style naming rather than some weird Xshipping name that only makes sense within a fandom?) justifiable, but there's a currently airing DB anime doing fanfictions for us. But I can at least praise Toriyama for giving us these questions to ask. If Yamcha showed up as often as the indian boy or Baba, he wouldn't have that defined a personality to break it. That's not an excuse, by far.
While not the best place, here's a thought. What if that trio never came back? I know, I'm so masakoriginal, but after the Freeza arc, the dragon balls are primarily mcguffins for randees staying alive. What if earth dragon balls didn't return after Piccolo's return, and no one came back? Toriyama would need to keep track of less, for one.
dude sonce the first budokai bulma and yamcha had issues, when kid goku first visited Bulma she said he flirts with girls all the time and gets her jealous, once Yamcha overcame his fear of women he was a total playboy, Toriyama mentioned this throughout the series Bulma and Yamcha were always fighting.
I think it's true that Toriyama didn't stop to think about the conflicts of the secondary characters.
Jeff Boxing Just because Toriyama mentioned something doesn't mean it makes sense, or should be taken as gospel. For example, it was never stated that Yamcha overcame his fear of women. In fact, quite the opposite, there are transcripts online right now of an interview Toriyama gave, in which he was asked about that and proudly boasted that the primary reason why Yamcha will never be successful with women is because he still has that fear of them, and that it will never go away.
If we as fans were completely honest with ourselves, then we would admit that the only reason those two characters had issues were because of HER. She was the one we saw in the series constantly flirting with and/or day dreaming about other guys, and she projected that onto Yamcha.
@@JeffPenaify huh you ever read a non VIZ translation if the manga or watch the sub version of the show!?
also Mistare is going by the manga (original version) and not Toeis filler
I feel like one of Toryama's greatest weakness as a writer is general inability to allow characters to fade off into the sunset (save the ones he forgets). He doesn't have anything for your Yamchas and your Tiens, but for some reason he feels the need to constantly keep them around. They don't have to be around for every arc! Or even past their first! Especially when you're just gonna have them literally sit around and do nothing at times.
Well hey Tenshinhan is a very active memer of this arc and is my second favorite character in it. Mostly because he's the only one not stupid enough to trust Vegeta.
@@spartanq7781 i mean he does one thing
@@leaffinite2001 I did say he was quite active. The only time he wasn't was during the Cell games.
@spartanq7781 i guess, though other than the kikoho moment hes basically background fodder like krillin or yamcha, with no chance of being important; except krillin gets his arc with 18. So hes basically just right above yamcha in terms of importance/relevance in the cell/android arc
I've always felt as though Yamcha was treated unfairly not only by fans but Toriyama himself in later arcs, but good god, did you manage to make that point *and then some*. That whole bit on Yamcha's character assassination and lack of support was downright cathartic.
This episode was just breathtaking, and if the next episode is, according to you, *far more controversial* than this one is, then good lord, am I excited.
Adventurous Adventurer Augustus
Lance mentioned in his recent Q&A that he'll get to Goku's odd decisions very soon in DBD, so my best guess is that he'll tackle everyone's foolish decision to let the Androids live despite Bulma's fantastic idea to find Gero's lab and destroy it immediately. I suppose that would ruffle people who (for some reason) insist that selfishness is and always was Goku's single defining characteristic. Even freaking Tenshinhan wanted them to let the Androids go so he could test his strength, even though he's currently fodder!
There is a reason why many use this arc when talking about Goku's actions in super.
"Well, he did this in the Cell Arc." "...I THOUGHT THAT WAS JUST AS STUPID AS WELL!"
Yeah it's probably about them not using the Dragon Balls to find Gero, causing the death of millions
kuribo04
To be fair, Trunks told them when and where the Androids will first show up, and they came ahead of time (by like an hour) to make sure they'd detect the Androids before anyone died. The only problem was that Trunks somehow forgot to mention that the Androids' ki can't be sensed, resulting in the civilians from that city dying unnecessarily.
"Toriyama, master of poop jokes"- that explains super
You did not get the joke...super IS the poo joke, aka: super is so bad sometimes it feels like its shit, and it would make sense if it was a poop joke that toriyama made
My soul knows the truth and the truth is: "Super is bad" and so is GT
okay, not all of super and gt....but most
Don’t forget dick jokes
@@herobrinesblog Except no, Super isn't that bad.
I agree with what you say. The way Toriyama does this to Yamcha is horrible. And if he so much wanted Trunks to be the son of Vegeta and Bulma, there are better ways to do it than to make Yamcha look like the bad guy. He could have made Yamcha and Bulma want different things in life or something, I do not know.
The worst thing is that this does not stop here. u_u
In any case, the best Dragon Ball couple are Gohan and Videl.
Another year ended and with him, another edition of Dragon Ball Dissection December; Thank you very much for all the effort you put into these videos, they are very enjoyable.
Or maybe even say that Yamcha died from Frieza and king cold. Hence not being around when they got together. But that wouldn't explain the current timeline them hooking up.
Spyro Thatd make Bulma look like a piece of shit especially if they broke up on not bad terms
_"Thatd make Bulma look like a piece of shit"_
As apposed to the other times she looks like a piece of shit pining for other men including Goku...while her boyfriend is dead? She's terrible and I love her for it but she would've survived the hit to her character as it fits moreso than it does Yamcha.
+The Dynast Queen What do you mean pining for other men? Thought crimes don't make you look like a piece of shit, ending up with the guy who murdered your previous boyfriend kinda does when you guys didn't even break up over something big.
and yet after all this yamcha seems ok and nonchalant with Bulma. He never was the type to hold a grudge. Bonus points for actually respecting future Trunks. he was the first one to rush over to him when he was shot by cell and he was the one who told him what Vegeta did afterwards which i'm sure tickled him.
I feel that Toriyama just hates Yamcha. Even though Toriyama has a reputation for forgetting characters or underutilizing them, he seems to be purposely out to bury Yamcha. When you look at characters like Puar, Lunch, and Chaozu, Toriyama didn't care about them in the beginning, which is why they're one note characters, and he would even go as far as forgetting Lunch exists. However, Yamcha was a very prominent character right at the start with lots of potential, but Toriyama probably regretted him for some reason, and has been slowly reducing him to a joke as the series progressed in order to kill his relevance to the story. So, Toriyama was a straight up dick to his own character, and Yamcha deserved much better than that.
Also, Vegeta and Lunch together? That works on so many levels. Damn you, Toriyama!
I totally agree with you. No character in dragon ball is treated as badly as yamcha and you can see it very early on where yamcha is either totally outclassed or just isn't there for some dumb reason (looking at you red ribbon arc).
I just like to believe that would outshine the other characters so he made him irrelevant but yamcha is such an interesting and compelling character that he still made it through all that crap somehow.
Sadly, i wish it was as that complex as that. But toriyama has stated (while he likes him now) Vegeta was always the character he liked the least, especially in his early days, but he still manage to treat vegeta with a lot of respect and maturity for his stories.
He made him hateable, but still understandable. So much to the point where you even wind up feeling bad for how he ended up dying to freeza, despite knowing FULL well its exactly what a guy like that deserved. The reason it still hurt was just cause toriyama bothered to put the time in to actually show the journey he was undergoing.
With yamcha? Truthfully, it honestly isn’t that deep. To hate someone, implies that they did something bad enough to gain that label in your mind.
Yamcha had never done anything like that to toriyama or anyone really.
Hating implies you left an impression. With yamcha? Toriyama doesn’t hate him, he just literally doesn’t care about him, like at all.
Throwing him under the bus, literally means nothing to him because he doesn’t care, its just buisness.
Yamcha is like the “meg griffin” of Dragonball. Aka the writers made him the punching bag, less because of any actual personal distaste for the character or who played him and more just because they have literally 0 idea what to do with him, so they just resort to using him for cheap gags.
You could easily argue that thats worst than hating a character tho tbh
Vegeta’s blunt integration into the cast irreversibly damaged the franchise
ka 8 Yeah, the minute Vegeta became Goku#2 was the minute I decided to put the original Dragon ball over Z. The quality degradation and franchise fatigue only gets worse from here
@@rpllrp So would you rather have Raditz be in Vegeta's spot?
@@jonathanhannah4 have nobody in vegeta's spot. if goku needs a rival piccolo is a natural alternative
Y'all niggas are trippin, Vegeta being a part of the cast made Dragon ball even greater than it was. He's one of the best characters
Overall, I feel the character assassination was not only unneeded, but it didn't even work adequately.
Even till this day, I and I imagine many other people saw it more as Bulma being the main instigator here than Yamcha after all these years, so I don't think it even did a good job of not making her look bad. Which is silly a prospect in the first place because I see nothing wrong with making her "look bad". It's Bulma.
She has already been shown to be that kind of person anyway.
So in the end, I just see this as a largely pointless slight on Yamcha's character.
how would you have redone it
I guess by making yamcha cheat bulma loses all her interest in human guys since they are all the same to her after her 1 experience failed showing her irrational nature again so she decides zarbon and vegeta aka aliens are better options cause you can't trust men ..its weird but It justifies her going from a demanding teen who wants a slave husband to a woman whose grown and doesn't need a man really around...she accepts vegetas lack of care...its a sign or maturity I guess..sure its nuts but she went the opposite of before and it worked out...she realized to care about herself and that will draw others to her..she cant want others to care for her
@@N.N01 Literally just have Bulma get jealous again and have a fling with Vegeta. Maybe even have it be that Bulma leaves Yamcha because she feels it isn't fair for him and he deserves better as a form of minor redemption.
It’s funny people tend to see this moment as “Yamcha getting his girl stolen” and not “Yamcha cheating and losing his girl to a better man”. Even when the story wants Yamcha to be the bad guy, it’s hard to see him as anything other than an underdog
@@bageltoo Because there is nothing to show and prove yhat yamcha ever did anything wrong
The only thing we hear is bulma's version which we know she overreacted a lot of the time in the past and accused him of things he didn't do
God damn. I just played the new Dragon Ball Z Kakarot game and there was a whole side quest about Puar making sure all the girls Yamcha hung out with were kept happy while he was dead in the Saiyan Arc. The whole thing made me sick
That was Toriyama pissing on the fans
@@kikihideout4966 bastard
#Yamchadidnothingwrong
#JusticeforYamcha
+Romulus Numa
#Yamchaneedsabetterwriter
I'm sorry, I'm tired...I'mma go get some sleep...-_-
#Yamchaneedslesshate
It doesn't help that in the old Funimation dub he sings "cat loves food" just before this point.
@Wolf king yamcha, the human beyond gods No they was referencing that line. How the hell does everyone forget that? No wonder people defend that dub. They forgottent how bad it is.
@Zesanactor Over-5 The old dub is trash. There I said again. Kai is the good dub.
Man, I never thought about how Yamcha as a character, is completely tossed aside by the Trunks thing.
Also, Bulma kinda went for Zarbon too.
She thought he was a good guy it's not the same thing
@@ifeanyiozoh5735 She thought that based on his looks; it's still a wandering eye
@@ifeanyiozoh5735 she thought he was good cause he was wearing the same outfit as the guys who killed her friends and boyfriend and been killing the Namakians?
@@guess6635 Face, not outfit; she thought he was good because he was a pretty boy
@@shadowrose8907 the outfit should be enough to know where their Allegiance are. That's why Dende was scared when he saw Krillin with it on thinking he was one if Frieza's men
In regards to all this "Yamcha cheat on Bulma" nonsense, I just go along with the head-canon that Bulma just told Trunks that Yamcha cheated on her right before she hooked up with Vegeta, and he's just repeating her story.
This is my headcanon as well although I understand why yamcha fans would be upset
Oh, no doubt. I'm not much of a Yamcha fan (I'm a Kuririn guy myself), but MistareFusion is on the mark about this being a character assassination. The fact that the voice actor asked Toriyama to explain himself is pretty telling that this is _supremely_ out-of-character. And all of this is immediately followed by Yamcha getting jobbed to hell by Gero and pretty much giving up altogether. He's relegated to being a background character afterward, and he never accomplishes his dream of getting married. Poor dolt.
So conclusively Bulma saw Yamcha with another girl, who could have been a mere stranger passing by on the streets. Bulma then had another of her episodes. Yamcha tried to defuse the situation. She jumped to conclusions and convinced herself AND HER SON that Yamcha was a cheat?
That's it! I'm starting a movement!
#IStandWithYamcha
This episode really represents my frustration with a lot of later dragon ball. All the great supporting characters from the first half get thrown to the side for guys with yellow hair. Yamcha personifies it better than anyone.
Agreed. Toriyama should have done more to keep the non-Saiyan characters relevant. Like have them learn the Kaioken and Genkai Dama. They were on King Kai's planet long enough and no explanation is given for why they didn't learn those techniques. Unless we go with Team Four Star's explanation that Yamcha mispronounced kaioken as kayoken.
Vegeta, in particular, seems to steal a lot from the older supporting cast. Goku's rival? Nope, not the martial artist prodigy from the other school, nor the reformed demon prince with a much better redemption arc, both of who seem to specialize in combat skills that differ from the hero's. Instead, we get Vegeta.
The guy Bulma marries, and their kid plays an important role in a time travel story, complete with story interaction with their father in the past? Nope, not Yamcha, dude who wants to get married. We don't get a story of Yamcha coming into his own confidence due to fighting to insure his son doesn't inherit a destroyed future. Instead, Vegeta, a guy who it takes the whole arc just to not ABUSE his son. (Such wonderful character development).
Deuteragonist of the Dragon Ball plotline, someone who can always be juxtaposed against Goku? Nope, not the plucky every man and best friend, whose been there from the beginning and could provide a very DIFFERENT thematic angle for Dragon Ball. Gotta be another Super Saiyan. Oh, that means Gohan? Nope, Gohan's too "nerdy" to "carry a story" (lack of imagination, much?). It's gotta be another meathead. Not just any meathead too, but a genocidal one too.
Kill off Vegeta on Namek, and the rest of the cast has MUCH more freedom to grow as characters. Heck, they can absorb much of what Vegeta gets later in the series, and might even come across MORE naturally than the current genocidal, blue spandex wearing meathead we got.
But, hey, fans want their edgy "anti-hero." Bah!
Hey there, I just wanted to say I loved your analysis here. I'm the author of Dragonball Z Elsewhere, a sidestory about Yamcha that I intended to fit neatly into the DB canon. All the points you addressed were ones I had observed and considered before starting writing back in 2003 and I thought you did an excellent job with this. Thank you!
Hey, RMK! Wasn't expecting to see you on UA-cam; as always, I wish I could like things more than once!
I know this is late but I'm a big fan man
I can't wait for you to cover the Tournament of Power in 2024. Great job Lance.
That's gotta be the most realistic prediction for a video release. I mean, compared to the predictions i normally see for TFS release dates.
insert clip of kaiser claiming they were gonna get out one episode a month
Blackenfist could say the same about you dude 😂
Well he did already. As of now anyway.
Bloogeta all the way!
But we should all consider...
Laungeta.
ethan brown super saiyan blugeta
And Urangeta too :P
Actually, it would be "Lungeta." Her name is "Lunch," not "Launch."
My boi yamcha dodged a bullet. Bulma was really going deep for men who have committed genocides for most of their life, till the point she saw them (Zarbon and Vegeta).
I can't wait for Goku to beat Jiren with calculus!
I really liked this episode, and now I have a great new phrase! Character assassination--also known as Akira Toriyama's favorite pasttime.
Take all the time you need for DBD, and I wish you great health in the new year.
Sounds like Ron the Death Eater
Ron The Death Eater only applies for fanfics.
Not that it matters. Vanilla TV Tropes has become so stricken with bullshit bureaucracy. It even nuked the Neglectful Precursors page's point. It's been holding to "my way or the high way" administration bullshit as well. You can even get banned because they didn't explain their fucking incompetence, or even because you *SIMPLY MADE GRAMMAR ERRORS ON A WIKI THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE FREE-SPIRITED*. Oh, and also, they think that Commander Red isn't vile enough to be a Complete Monster. They also think Roger Retinz from Ace Attorney isn't disgusting enough for that either. Yeah, good God they have some aneurysm-inducing arrogance.
Don't know the Ace Attorney example, and I wouldn't have thought Red had enough screen/page time to be that vile; Evil Is Petty, certainly, but...*shrug* their overly-PC safe space crap is definitely tiresome, I agree with that. That's why I don't go anywhere near the administrative fora; I'll stick to the writer's block board, and pretty much only for my own questions. The sad part about the admins is they seem to have even gotten WORSE since Fast Eddie stepped down, and there were no shortage of people calling him dictatorial as it was....
Thank you. If you're wondering about the Ace Attorney example, I'll provide about him on the next post with spoiler space, a different reason for multi-posting than the 10K character limit on comments. As for Commander Red, he should definitely qualify if he's going to have an entire army use violence so that he could gain a few inches of height with an artifact that could be put to more creative use. Alas, he and Tao Pai Pai got cut because Dragon Ball Z upped the ante by so much. Doesn't DBZ change the tone so drastically from the original DB to begin with?
So BastardEddie has stepped down and the site got worse? Wow. Just wow. That's what happens when you promote the damned hive minded bullshit. redd(sh)it is equally abhorrent about this stupidity too, by the way. I can get some nonsense would have to be cleaned up, but good GOD do they go about it the wrong way, and seriously, they want to be arrogant about it to boot. Sadly, the TV Tropes alternatives have been overrun by these shitty admins too. Of course, as long as people want any excuse for complacency, these sites and their admins will never be called out properly. At least I know I'm not alone thinking there's some painful problems.
As for Roger Retinz, here's what makes him vile (after the spoiler space, since it's spoilers for the case "The Magical Turnabout" from Spirit of Justice)
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Retinz's backstory is that 13 years prior to the case that involves him, he, as the real Mr. Reus, a fire illusionist part of Troupe Gramarye, had been ordered by his boss Magnifi Gramarye to not perform on stage upon seeing Retinz running into an accident, and then Retinz went to perform anyway, which resulted in Magnifi firing Retinz. Doesn't sound too bad? Well, I'm getting to that. See, Retinz would go on to be producer for Take-2 TV, which allowed him to provide things like girls in bikinis wrestling each other, bets on scandals, hidden camera pranks, mockery of failures, and other such trash TV, because he's interested in making sure everything is loud, flashy, and trashy to draw attention, even though it's an easy argument that all he adds is the trash. Still, that he is a TV producer almost sounds like the perfect opportunity to simply find a way to get revenge of Magnifi Gramarye in a legal AND creative way, don't it?
Oh, and here's a *_VERY_* important detail to how God awful Retinz is within the backstory: 2 years before the case, Retinz had a chance encounter on one of his shows with Manov Mistree, who had revealed his admiration of Mr. Reus--yes, Mr. Reus specifically, not the same Troupe Gramarye who had sent him off to live in disgrace, even trying to Unperson him--unaware of Retinz's identity as such. Retinz revealed as much to Mistree in return and groomed Mistree to be his successor. You just know Retinz would prove to be an awful piece of shit with this in mind.
Well, that brings us to the case's present day, where Trucy Wright, Magnifi Gramarye's biological granddaughter who is a chipper 17 year old girl able to handle multiple jobs as a magician and also as the de-facto deputy head of the Wright Anything Agency, was providing one of her magic shows, one that would reintroduce the character of Mr. Reus to the world. Suddenly, in the middle of the show, Manov Mistree was shown dead, because what had happened was apparently Trucy didn't swap the swords properly, but eventually there would be a case that Trucy intentionally didn't swap the swords, which would fall under first-degree murder. In the attempts by the Wright Anything Agency's defense attorneys to figure out what is going on, they interviewed Retinz, who already proved himself to be a chauvinistic magician hater interested in ratings dynamite, incidentally also calling the DAs hypocritical money-grubbers (THE IRONY). Soon after that already disgusting interview, Retinz would find the DAs again to inform them that due to the show cancellation, the Agency is liable for $3,000,000, and before the shock of that ridiculous sum could finish setting in, Retinz announced that he was "gonna run Troupe Gramarye and everybody associated with it into the ground." Not long after that, the DAs would end up overhearing a conversation between Retinz and a suddenly unpleasant Bonny de Famme, the latter being Trucy's assistant and until that point apparently a pleasant girl, with Bonny acting like she was running the show while Retinz just indicated lust toward her. That wouldn't change what happens with the next bit of involvement with Retinz, who acts on the $3M contract without it having been processed through court and forecloses on the Wright Anything Agency office, while also having Take-2 TV pull yellow journalism on the DAs, causing it to get surrounded by a mob violent enough to break windows. Oh, and did you know that there's carbon paper that was within a clipboard with a secret opening involved in this whole mess, found shortly after the ridiculous liability came up?
Yeah, read that last paragraph alone, without any of the backstory context. That covered only the Investigation Phase and that was more than enough to put Retinz into Hate Sink territory. The backstory context make how awful he truly is clear: Roger Retinz murdered his own clearly loyal successor, and did so in a manner where he tricked Betty de Famme, the twin sister of Bonny who is the unpleasant one between the twins and the actual angry red herring character of the case, into committing manslaughter under contract and under the pretense of a hidden camera prank on Trucy. Was the murder to set up a ratings stunt as the TV producer he became? Was it to traumatize Trucy Wright as the vengeful former member of Troupe Gramarye? They're both possible motives and they're both absolutely awful, but here is one that Retinz himself, when you have the bitch on the witness stand, implies is the real one and it is even worse: that he is a solo act, and any assistants would just be potential loose ends. Even though Retinz clearly chose to have a successor. Hell, murdering your own loyalist for arbitrary reasons is one of the WORST things a person can do in my book. Retinz did that and other bites of sadism with NO concern of the death penalty until he was completely caught red-handed for everybody to clearly see, while trying to traumatize Trucy horribly and frame her for crimes worthy of capital punishment.
It's just nice to see that Retinz was brought down by THREE bites of his own sadism, namely Retinz bringing in hecklers during the trial phase who Trucy overcame, which convinced Bonny de Famme to give a video tape intended to be a present to her from a Take-2 TV cameraman who by the way actively focused rather actively on her--said video tape made it clear that the public one was indeed conveniently edited, forcing Retinz onto the witness stand; the fake contract business, which allowed forgery to be linked to "evidence" against Trucy and proved Retinz had a motive against Trucy; and of course, Retinz trying to film Trucy's suffering during trial recess attempting to mock her happiness, which forced him to use sleight-of-hand to escape punishment and ultimately got him outed as the real Mr. Reus, which destabilized his location alibi leading to him being caught tampering with the crime scene.
See how awful Retinz is? Ace Attorney's heinous standard of 1 murder for variable reason and 1 frame up to avoid upwards of capital punishment for the murder is easily smoked by this scumbag, never mind that he's a Knight Of Cerebus as well. I ask again: how is he not heinous enough for the Complete Monster trope?
Best intro ever!
I think i am one of the only people who watch both of you.
Nice seeing you here
The first time I ever saw Dragon Ball Z when I was seven I always assumed Yamcha was supposed to be a sort of dark comedy character.
So the first time I saw DB I was pretty shocked.
Yamcha would be so hot if he was a real guy.
Tina Ho A 6 foot, muscular guy who often has long hair, harass and mysterious scars, and is described as having boyish good looks? Yamcha sounds more like the love interest in a romantic series aimed at women, come to think of it.
sonikku956: _"Yamcha sounds more like the love interest in a romantic series aimed at women, come to think of it."_
I always felt that was the joke of his character, he should have no issue with women but due to his fear he does. But nah forget that still present fact he's totally a cheater, can't be trusted at all unlike the most trustworthy best girlfriend ever Bulma!
@@HibikiTehMan I miss the old bulma... she was so entertaining
She's becoming more bland and boring everytime it's crazy
And all of that so she can fit the narrative of good housewife to vegeta
@@sonikku956 No
@@HibikiTehMan He is NOT a cheater
Oh no that foreshadowing at the end to the sudden change of Gohan not wanting to hurt Cell to SSJ2 Gohan torturing Cell, but in the past had no trouble of fighting to kill. Cant wait...
Maybe Vegeta could've ended up with Bulma's sister Tights who of course always existed in continuity :P
I always thought Yamcha should of ended up with Tights.
That would be weird, dating a girl for sooooo many years and then ending up with her younger, hotter sister lol.
Tights is older. Though she still looks quite nice somehow. Guess she gets it from her ageless mother.
This would have been great, Bulma and Yamcha could have a Goten like child (Yamcha looks like Goku so thats why Goten does) then Trunks would be his cousin.
Leon O'Grian I also agree with that, it would've been awesome to see.
I remember as a kid when this arc first came to Toonami (which was the first Dragonball arc I watched since Namek, skipping the Garlic Junior filler arc entirely), I watched the episode where Trunks revealed his parentage, and I was like, "NO. BAD TORIYAMA. SHAME ON YOU."
So even as a kid, I knew it was...not the greatest writing.
how did you know the creators name that early on?
Even back then, it was fairly easy to find on the Internet. Plus, it was in the end credits of every episode.
What kid reads the credits? half the time they were squashed to the side so an ad could tell you what the next is. I only knew about Toriyama because I read the manga and his names one of the only ones on the thing, I certainly wouldn't have thought or cared to look it up online.
Um... *raises hand* Clearly I did.
Yeah, but didn't you also originally learn about the plot of Dragonball through online reviews? That's not exactly the norm. And while I appreciate you giving me this much attention, I was mostly asking to learn more about Jared Lord's comment, and your speculation isn't really getting me anywhere with that.
I didn't remember the Yamcha cheating thing at ALL so this video caught me by surprise. I somehow fooled myself into remembering that Blooma just dumped him but no... this is the poorest of poor dolt moments I've ever seen indeed.
And yet Toriama still insists Yamcha is bad around women even in Super, so how did he manage to cheat? Like which is it? Was he raped, and chose to play it off as he cheated instead of admitting what happened? (Not to make light of rape, sorry not my intention)
Woah...
Talk about not being out-of-place for Dragonball.
Poor dolt.
The fact is Yamcha being a "playboy" is never shown, or even hinted at, in all of Z, Super, or even GT... That workout scene that was shoved into the anime was just Yamcha reacting to women the same way he has since he first laid eyes on Bulma, by getting totally flustered to the point of not even talking strait... So again I ask, how did he cheat?
Yamcha being raped is totally plausible to me but honestly it had to be a lie to justify Bulma's stupid -but hot- one night stand or an overreaction that Yamcha, being the guy he is, didn't want to harp on. Or simply Toriyama didn't think anything through for the billionth time so we're stuck filling in the gaps. Either way he did Yamcha wrong and I ain't even a fan yet I can't look at it any other way.
I mean, in your defense, there was that one episode of Super where Master Roshi borderline assaults that witch girl, and no one does anything about it (Goku plays it off). So, it could very well be a possibility that Yamcha was treated with a similar lack of seriousness.
@@kmgyening what
The idea of Yamcha cheating is definitely a product of Toriyama's discovery writing biting him in the ass.
You know....the Yamcha cheating thing never say right with me, but even worse...why does no one ever consider the fact that Bulma may have just lied to her son?
We're quick to say Toriyama wrote Yamcha OOC, but Bulma has been accusing Yamcha of cheating since she's been with him and was always shown to be wrong about that. So....why are we supposed to suddenly take her word as fact? Trunks got that reason from Bulma; he doesn't know Yamcha. Any knowledge he has about anyone comes from Bulma and Gohan. So, why are we so sure what he said is true?
CyanideFilledCandy
This is addressed in the video: 17:28
@@nightcrawler1377 Bull
"Last time, Freeza got cut in half...again."
"Trunks did his best to lend Freeza some of his ki so that he could survived on his own..."
lol
As a huge Yamucha fan I must say this video felt like therapy! Happy new year.
Yamcha did nothing wrong. MistareFusion convinced me XD
+TheMetallingOne
I get your reference, but this is kind've literal... Toriyama should've done more to give reason as to why Bulma would bang Vegeta... I mean Hell, Toei added in filler where she nurses Vegeta back to health during his training. Although it made it look like Bulma was the cheating one and not the---- Oh my GamiKai... O_O
Look dude, I get your joke, but after what I just typed I'm literally convinced Yamcha did nothing wrong.
DemonicRemption i was not joking tho. i agree
Trunks probably went back too far in the past and had a run in with ranfan
That should of been who Vegeta banged and should be Trunk's mother. Hell I would bang her.😉
@@spartanq7781 me too
@@therandomduder8610 I see your one of culture.
it's actually funny because trunks gets with my who is older than Goku
Kudos, you've pretty much nailed my thoughts on DB to this point (you were a bit to harsh on the Piccolo arc tho, imo), and this episode about Yamcha was absolutely on point. Can't shake my head enough on Toriyama's character assinations.
Also, how the group so casually "accepts" Vegata has always bothered me.
Actually, Evil Lunch + Vegeta would be a much better choise for Trunk's parents. I'm pretty sure Toriyama chose Bulma + Vegata 'cause of popularity.
Also, since Toriyama forgot about Launch...
I got into DB with the Cell Games arc of the Android Saga and Yamcha seemed perfectly fine, so when I went back to the first episode and heard he'd cheated, I couldn't help raising an eyebrow. And going throughout the rest of the series, I didn't hear any mention of cheating at all, nor did I see a guy who'd done anything to deserve all his misfortunes. And honestly, TFS only made it worse; they played up hisButt-Monkey status so much that even seeing him get thrown a bone in the DB ShortZ was hard for me to buy. And hell, even when he earned praise from Beerus in that baseball episode of Super, they still did it in a way that referenced one of the most humiliating moments in his life. Yamcha really did deserve so much better, and this is why I'm not a fan of Butt Monkeys.
But also, I'll never be okay with this idea that being afraid to die is somehow cowardly. If anything, I have more respect for people who show that their basic survival instinct is functional. Shit, I think it's more admirable that he made the decision to go out there despite knowing he could never take Freeza in a fight.
Yamcha is one of my favorite characters everytime i watch this my heart breaks, he deserves so much more
Bulma would probably lie about Yamcha cheating because she felt bad because she did it
Having the woman essentially go *_"Yeah Vegeta is awful but....I was horny! What was I supposed to do? Not bang Vegeta? COME ON!"_* was maybe too much so instead a good guy is needlessly ruined while a selfish brat and a psycho are "rewarded".
And I type that as a Vegebul fan (YES IT SOUNDS BETTER!) because deep down even most of us know Bulma is the terrible undeserving one and that Yamcha did nothing wrong except put up with her crap for so long. Still love you though, woman!
Hey Vegeta stopped killing so it's okay!
Until he killed that trucker who was never revived but I'm sure he will never do anything like that every again let alone on a larger scale cause he has been tamed by Bulma's -vagina- love!
To be fair, that was only in the anime. Wanna know what was in the anime _and_ the manga? Vegeta practically bragging about massacring a Namekian village (the one that didn't get revived) and Bulma flirting with him only a few minutes later.
Man I'm always a bit confused when people mention these anime-only scenes (I mostly only read the manga). For a moment I stand there trying to think if I'm crazy for forgetting these crazy moments Toei made up. Thankfully there's always someone pointing out it's not something from the manga lol
@@danielquinlan2457 that trucker dies in the manga too lol
As someone who read the german Version of the manga, I am so glad the translaters noticed too how stupid it is for Yamcha to be a cheater. So they just make Trunks say that Yamcha left Bulma... that fits soooo much better for both of their characters. Considering how much she shittalked him during the Saiyan and Freeza Arcs, it makes perfect sense for him to go: "I am done with your bullshit". It gives Yamcha a lot more dignity there and him having a new girlfriend at the end of the Android Arc fits and since the cheating never comes up again, it's not a retcon either and fits into continuity. As for the actual phrasing, my headcanon is that Yamcha probably just met up with a girl casually, probably a friend and then Bulma saw them, made assumptions and saw it as cheating. or maybe Future Bulma misrememberd things as second option.
This is what TV Tropes calls an "informed attribute" or more specifically, "Informed Wrongness." It was obviously shoehorned in simply because Vegeta had been built up as a deuteragonist and had more significance to the plot at this point. I'm glad to see somebody else admit that.
By the way, what do you mean that the next episode is going to me the most controversial one? Is it because Goku decides to wait for the Artificial Humans/Cyborgs/Androids instead of following Bulma's advice to take Doctor Gero out now? Or worse, because all of his friends go along with it after being so terrified of Freeza?
Can't it be both?
Love how Mistare is defending Yamcha like this is a court case.
I really feel sad for yamcha because he haven't earned anything in his life .
1- He has never win a match in any tenkaichi budokai tournament .
2 - he lost bulma to vegeta and he have become single for the rest of his life .
#makeyamchagreatagain
Yet he still try and try again.
Also he still hangs out with his friends despite being treated like shit.
Only puar is really by his side.
He has Puar, though.😂
practically the only one who never betray him
Yamcha is my favorite character and it pains me to see what Toriyama does to him constantly. This obviously is the biggest example of the character getting fucked over, but there are other occasions too, which carry on to this day. In Super, the characters treat him like garbage. Even in Yamcha's baseball filler episode Bulma says "baseball is all he's good at". And in the pre-tournament of power episodes they make a joke out of how nobody invites poor Yamcha in both the anime and manga versions. And it honestly pains me that when Buu can't join the tournament everyone thinks they're doomed and can't think of anyone else they could possibly bring, eventually resorting to bringing Freeza of all people instead of their old friend. It's disgusting honestly.
How is that any less disgusting than the fact that Yamcha's cowardly ass never even bothered to show up to help fight Freeza's forces yet Roshi who had been severely out classed for years still went out there to fight despite the odds.
Tien left Yamcha behind and Yamcha didn't like that as you would know from the baseball episode where Yamcha leaves Tien behind as payback.
TekTheNinja I feel your pain, man. Yamcha is my favorite character too. If Toriyama truly wanted to toss him to the side, than I wish he had at least gave him some sort of meaningful send-off. Hell, he never accomplished his dream from the very first arc. :(
Actually, I liked how the manga did it better since he was about to be recommended, but the phone call made her completely forget what she was talking about. That sort of thing happens to me all of the time and seemed to fit well with the humor here.
I agree, also i find it very out of character for goku to not invite yamcha and instead search for freeza.
Goku always had a lot of respect for yamcha as a fighter we can see that in their first tournament when yamcha fight roshi.
I hate what goku has become. I miss his old self.
Yamcha is no cheater, but Bulma? I can see her cheating alot
I don't even think Yamcha actually cheated on her, I think Bulma really is just that terrible.
To be fair, this is the author that:
forgot Launch existed
forgot Tao Pai Pai existed
forgot Goten existed
forgot that there was 3 Super Saiyan Forms rather than 2
thought 18's hair was purple
forgot that he designed Broly
forgot that Animal People were integrated into Earth society (outside of a select few named characters)
doesn't plan the story ahead - he just makes up stuff as he went along (such as creating 17, 18 & Cell's forms because his editors didn't like the current big bad, created Super Saiyan form so he didn't have to ink Goku's hair every week, etc)
Although the series brings a lot of joy and entertainment, it's probably best not to take Akira Toriyama's words seriously when he forgets so many details about his own franchise - including Yamcha's love life (or struggle with it).
Cell arc tried to convince people they didn't like Yamcha in a similar vein to how the ToP is now trying to convince people they don't like Tenshinhan. I don't think either attempt really stuck. Yamcha almost did but the fanbase memeing him into joke oblivion almost feels like a coping mechanism for the contrivance.
Git the heck outta town! The guy went up against villains way stronger than him and still managed to save everyone's bacon three times.
Ultimapeanvt, you obviously just hate any character that doesn't have a high power level judging by your other comments.
And while characters find different ways to help out, no one besides Tenshinhan had high impact plays in the thick of battle from such a relatively low level. Dude set Cell so far back that Krillin, Vegeta, and Trunks all had to majorly drop the ball for Cell to achieve perfect form. Citing that other characters in fiction do this sort of thing isn't a very compelling argument. Supporting cast members providing support doesn't exactly diminish their impact. Otherwise your love for other characters would be just as unsubstantiated. In terms of accomplishing a lot more as you say, I'm not sure many supporting characters aim higher than saving the main hero and saving the planet's get out jail free card. Guy's just got titanium balls.
People were pissed about Tenshinhan's actions.......Yamcha has been a meme since 2008.
Tenshinhan had a complete character arc, nothing about him is inconsistent. He's arrogant, then humbled, and finally leaves his past behind him. Pretty clear cut. I can see how you might find him boring afterwards but he's used pretty sparingly overall and tends to be an admirable, proactive character. His part is critical in Piccolo Daimao. Since Goku is preoccupied, Krillin is dead, and Yamcha is out of commission, we need to see the escalation of the present threat from someone's perspective. Muten Roshi being the only one knowledgeable enough of Piccolo to act as a threat, then dying, makes the situation way more dire than it'd be had it been Tenshinhan who died there instead.
The fact that Krillin, Trunks, and Vegeta screw up isn't the point so much as Tenshinhan didn't. Of course, I don't begrudge any of those screw ups, as they are some of the most well-justified in a saga full of contrivances. There's nothing lazy about paying service to a long benched character by giving him the opportunity to shine without stepping over his limitations. You're slapping an adjective in front of something in hopes that it will magically make it so. Out of the supporting cast, Piccolo had the most economic use of his skills post-Namek, but Tenshinhan also had some nice moments that fans remember fondly with good reason, albeit small.
It seems like you've allowed outside fan discussion like, "Who is the strongest human?" or, "Could (weak character in later saga) beat (strong character from past saga)?" to influence how you feel about the character. I never put any stock in that sort of stuff, and while Tenshinhan isn't my favorite side character over guys like Krillin, Piccolo, or Muten Roshi, I don't see any strong evidence to actively dislike him.
I always found it odd that Eighter never appeared in the Android Saga or beyond that, he could've been a great help and it would've been interesting to see his interaction with 16.
I don't remember Yamcha ever cheating on Bulma so I guess it was omitted on the dub. But if she ever said that I would've assume Bulma is just jumping to conclusions because she always has -also she needed an excuse to bang Vegeta- *And* if he ever did I would assume it was Bulma's fault somehow
As a writer for drama and romance genre, what Toriyama did was a massive asspull and deliberate jerkassery for Yamcha, considering he's consistently a nice guy with even gynophobia before. I understand that this is an action manga and Toriyama probably doesn't like writing romance but damn, that relationship could've been foreshadowed and developed a little.
It also sorta feels like a dick move towards the actors as well. They probably would have loved to depict Yamcha and Bulma falling out of love with each other and what led them to stay friends regardless. And with how talented Toru Furuya and Hiromi Tsuru are the scenes were practically guaranteed to be great. Oh well. Missed oppurtunities.
Going back to Dragonball in respects to the late Toriyama, this was the one section of the story that actually was outright "bad".
I love Trunks, him and Gohan are actually my favorite characters in the series. But harming Bulma's character to force Trunks into the story wasn't the way to do it.
Toriyama made Bulma go out with an abusive toxic person (who hasn't reformed at all at this point) as breeding stock to introduce new Super Saiyan characters into the story. Like you said, he didn't have to have Trunks be Bulma's son in order to introduce a powerful new time traveler. If this 'was' the angle they wanted to go, they needed a better explanation. Maybe if Vegeta saved Bulma's life, or something like that.
But shonen manga just has a tendency to use women as plot devices to advance the story not care about the characterization or motives of those women. Sakura from Naruto is another example.
According to you on Twitter, this and your next episode will be your most controversial ones (so far)
Color me HYYYYYYPED
To be honest one of the only jokes in DBZA I don’t like are the “Yamcha sucks!” jokes, especially when that series already has two great characters that are constantly in misery in the form of Vegeta and Krillin. The reason why the bad luck for Vegeta is funny is because he deserves it, and the reason why that joke is funny with Krillin is because the series still respects Krillin which allows us to want Krillin to succeed
No yourself.
Oh God WHYYYYYY?! You just had to put the image of Baba and Vegeta having sex in my head??!!! WHYYYY?! *CRIES*
lol
Well to be fair Trunks is not an unbiased narrator. He probably learned about Yamcha being a cheater from Bulma who always thought Yamcha was cheating on her. For all we know Yamcha never cheated on her and it's simply what Bulma believes and tells herself to make herself feel better for cheating on Yamcha.
Hey man Trunks didn't see it all he did was tell the story he heard from Bulma
TO ALL THE PEOPLE HERE:
Let's us NOT forget, that most of this was done, directly or not, to make bulma look good at the end, sorry, but she never came off as a likeable character to me, may even say that she was before her convenient portrayal as a mother in the cell arc, as, kinda bad, even if these series was more about the action, things didn't make sense in characterization, and I always found, then and now, stupid and unfair that this was done in the first place, even made worse by some filler scenes after Frieza, toriyama flip flopping (among many other of his issues), the Funimation revisioning, and Toriyama buying into the memes with the basketcase that was most of Super, and this is coming from someone who has still respect to Dragonball, I am Mexican for crying out.
I didn't even ever heard of the Toru Furuya anecdote before!
So to add to 9:30, this was just to have people forced in to giving simphathy to bulma by taking it away from yamcha, without her really earning it! in spite of what had happened and what WE SAW before.
I always wanted to take this out of my chest!
Thanks for making this!
Thank you. Honestly this one instance is my biggest reason for not liking Blooma. Yet Chi-Chi is the one who gets hated on. As for Yamacha this made me feel so bad for him that it made me like him. Hell Vegeta and Blooma hardly ever interact despite this. It makes her look like a idiot and such a horrible person. To sleep with a murderer of a galactic scale. One who was partly responsible for Yamacha's death. When he was her boyfriend. Yet no sooner is he back alive she leaves him for a monster.
As much as I love the game’s interpretations and ideas to fill in gaps and give smaller characters extra screen time and development, DBZ: Kakarot’s interpretation on Yamcha is just painful to watch as nearly all sub-stories that focus on him laser focuses on his implied cheating habits, showing him date multiple girls at the same time.
It’s really sad to see such a well-meaning and brave character be forcibly turned to a tragic sad sack.
Budokai 3 already implied that he was a cheater. There was a part in Goku's storymode where he tells Yamcha off for talking to another girl and saying Bulma will be upset, and Yamcha said he was just seeing if she needed help.
Heh, I love the fact that you gave 12 minutes of analysis of Bulma-Yamcha. Totally unexpected, but I've always been sympathetic to poor Yamcha. Maybe his career as a baseball player is what brought about his increased popularity with the ladies, but always figured Bulma's side of the story was only one version of the true events.
Yamcha was successful with the ladies since he got in the city back in the original dragon ball. Bulma was already really jealous and even broke up with him. And since he was still weird around women and was in his first relationship he didn't know how to react and tried to wait it out.
I really feel bad for him he never did anything wrong she was just being a bitch.
Why do you still only have ten thousand subscribers? Damn the youtube algorithm.
Because unfortunately, contrary to popular belief, popularity and quality don't truly conflate. The world just isn't fair :/
Because most DB fans just want to argue about power levels and look at cool fights instead of looking critically at the story or look at any substantial content related to Dragonball.
@@brabbit330 I hate that. If the series was nothing but fighting it would get tedious quickly. It is my main problem with the Freeza fight.
Well it’s official. Goku has ultra instinct due to his impressive calculus skills
This is final nail in the coffin for Yamcha. He has already been sidelined now he loses all importance. The way Toriyama treats this guy is so unfair. Yamcha is not a bad character. The way Toriyama treats him however is bad.
I’ve been waiting for this topic to be tackled ever since DBD started and oh boy did it not disappoint. Thank you for so BRILLIANTLY articulating one of the biggest problems in Dragon Ball Lance. You freakin’ rock 👍🏽👍🏽.
This video was incredibly cathartic, thank you, Yamcha deserved so much better than to have his character screwed over so often and so intensely.
And we're back to the video that got me to watch your entire series thus far, kudos once again on your work, I completely agree with everything you said here and am both frustrated and saddened at Yamcha's treatment.
Ppl love bulma x vegeta bcuz the potential there is actually awesome; a generic old fashioned (kinda sketchy tbh) "civilized woman tames a brute" love story, but the brute is a terrifying space warrior, and the civilized woman isnt a gentle lady civilizing the brute; shes actually an asshole too! But shes still human, and teaches him to be human. Thats all great!
But man, none of that actually happens in dragonball! Vegeta never really warms up to her until supplementary material like gt and super, and their relationship is basically just a marriage forced by a child born from a one night stand. Its a plot device, and honestly none of the characters involved are really respected by the narrative; yamcha just gets it by far the worst :(
That isn’t great
Yep
I guess I never payed too much attention to Cell Arc because I always thought Bulma was the cheater and Yamcha the "poor dolt". I too would rationalize that we're only getting Bulma's side of the story, which would be extremely biased.
I do that a lot for Dragon Ball, assuming the opposite of what the author tries to force. Makes the story more interesting.
WE ARE THE YAMCHA FANBASE TOGETHER WE ARE STRONG
... alone we get blown up by saiberman
I'm not really a Yamcha fan but I have to say that its weird that Toriyama had Bulma and him break up over cheating instead of just drifting apart. Bulma already had to wait for Yamcha to be wished back for a year which before he died he spent all of his time training for the saiyans arrival for 6 months and if they were fighting before that then it makes perfect sense that they would break up since they've spent a year and a half apart and even then weren't exactly a happy couple before when behind closed doors. There is no real reason that it has to be anyones fault in my mind at least.
Even worse for a garbage character like Vegeta, how worthless
I am pleased that you speak in depth about certain things that almost no one says about the series. I don't know much English, but I hope you understand my message. Good video.
Your English is perfect. Thank you!
"Androids?"
"Actually the correct translation would be Artificial Humans--"
"Androids!"
I got the reference.
Great analysis, thanks for all the hard work putting these together! Happy New Year!
Best video ever.
Listens without watching? OMG, he knows I exist!
Thanks for redoing your playlists btw
:]
I never realised that the Yamcha cheating thing originated here. I guess I always read into Bulma's outburst at the start of the Saiyan arc. I just checked it and i was surprised that its not explicitly said. Poor Yamcha.
You sir, made a great point.
I always thought this part was really off for Yamcha and it was Bulma being the unfair one. As you said she did have a history of recklessly falling in love to any man she sees even if she how awful they were so it was hard to swallow that it Yamcha's fault that led her to sleep with Vegeta.
Another well done episode! I’m so happy that someone remembered poor Yamaha and just how badly he and just about everyone else was mishandled in this arc just so the plot could happen.
That’s probably going to a running theme for this arc: Characters acting out of character so that some plot convenience can happen.
I have a feeling that the “controversy” next episode is going to have something to do with everyone choosing the least logical thing to do after hearing Trunks’s warning and letting the androids become active.
And I love hearing your controversial opinions. So I’m really excited for the next episode.
Been subbed since the early Red Ribbon Saga Dissections, and I can't ever wait for the next episode lolol They're so well made!
This guy really knows his stuff, impressive. Even down to terminator influences
As a Yamcha fan myself I can relate to how you feel.
Best way to end 2017, watching you! Another fantastic episode and Dragon Ball Dissection December.
I know this is old but seriously, thank you
I was a yamcha fan for the lingest time and couldn't understand why he was treated so horribly and this explained it so well to me
Thank you for helping me understand
Yamcha being written out of dragon ball was the best thing to happen to him. Now i can imagine him playing Baseball and be happy away from all the martial art stuff. I have never seen Super so please tell me he just got the Launch treatment, please. poor guy deserves better people around
no
@@rpllrp Just go with the DBZA short about Yamcha where he retires from baseball and becomes extremely wealthy.