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The Big, Dumb Ending - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Freeza Arc Part 13!
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- Опубліковано 17 вер 2017
- The Freeza Arc comes to a close... and completely derails. New powers that are never explained, plans that are explained but make no sense, and everything rushed through so quickly the author hopes you'll never notice. But is it enough to damage the arc as a whole? We review the rest of the arc and finally settle its position in the Dragon Ball pantheon.
In before the deluge of comments saying, "But in the anime they address the things you're talking about!" Because people, for some reason, think I've never seen the anime before...
Yeah, the manga version seems much more rushed, the anime fleshes certain things out. (which can be said for arcs like the Saiyan arc too) Of course in this arc, sometimes the filler can be way too overdone.
I imagine the Buu Arc is going to be the 1/10 if only because the manga adaptation of that is so bare bones that even Kai had to add tons of filler to pad out the run time.
MistareFusion I honestly think it's because he needed the energy to get off the planet. Not to survive.
Isn't it funny how the anime had to fix Toriyama's screw ups? Well I should say they TRIED to fix his screw ups which ended with mixed results. Some filler is good and makes some characters feel more real but a lot of it's just added padding to fights.
space jesus you just used my faviroute term
Hey lance, at least goku's ki blast didnt send frieza back in time.
Hahaha, this is true. Thank heaven for small miracles.
Please! Everyone knows that ki blasts send you to another dimension!
@@TylerCharlesFisher Other World IS another dimension...
@@mitchfletcher2386 Ocean dub was just foreshadowing.
"Worst ending in the entire series"
*Zeno erases Zamasu and Trunks' timeline from existance only for Trunks to get a new one*
This is Dragon Ball. That's Dragon Ball Super. Different series. ^_^
So are we ever going to get a dissection on Super? Is it worth it?
+Yunus Ahmed With Super it would be more of an autopsy
kuribo04 ...I don't get it. Why wouldn't it be a dissection?
I'm curious about that too.
I wouldn't really count on it, not anytime soon anyway, that's for sure. It'd probably be a massive workload for him, and given the sizeable likelihood that he doesn't enjoy Super all that much, also perhaps kind of a chore to do. Maybe if it was done in big batches? I'd love to see a dissection on it someday.
When Super Saiyan hair still looked like hair and not pieces of metal or stiff bananas
When Super Saiyan hair looked like stiff bananas and not like a flash animation failure. It's all downhill from here.
You hair that made him look like a troll doll in this arc right?
Blame modern Yamamuro for that
Finally, banana hair is over!
SonGoku: Hey i just fought you, and this is crazy. But here's my ki blast, so kill me maybe.
Spectacular
"YOU FOOOOL! COULDN'T YOU TELL I WAS JOKING?"
I like how Freeza mocks Goku for this. Though it only serves to make the stupidity more apparent.
Oof! It's like 2012 all over again.
The biggest thing I dont understand is why Vegeta didnt just kill everyone that could compete on earth when they were going to use the earth dragonballs, then wish for immortality. Theres no way that he had changed in that short of a time-span to which he wasn't going to consider it. The only person I could see defeating him is piccolo, and even then he could just wait for the dragon to be summoned, then yell out his wish before the others.
This.
One more fight at the end of the story between Piccolo and Vegeta after he knocks out and/or kills Gohan *While* Goku was still fighting Frieza would have been the sickest shit *Ever*
Earth's Dragon Balls would be inert for a year and he would have to face all the namekians plus Piccolo and Gohan. Doesn't seem like a smart choice even for Vegeta's later standards and regarding Porunga he doesn't speak namekian. Even if he wins and then thinks there'll be no consequences cause he assumed Goku died he'll be basically trapping himself on Earth. I think it's rather logical that Vegeta waited and got a grasp of the situation at hand and after that it wouldn't benefit him in the slightest starting another confrontation knowing Goku's alive. The most strange thing is how almost nobody in the main group has a problem accepting Vegeta after everything he did and that he didn't really reformed he just pacted a truce out of convenience and he just doesn't retaliate cause it would end badly for him.
I can't believe that I've never once stopped to consciously consider how abrupt and contrived the ending to this arc is. I guess it just goes to show how difficult it can be to deliver a satisfying payoff to something that has gotten such an insane amount of buildup.
Also, while I initially thought that Cell was going to get the 3 and Majin Boo would get the 1, after I thought about that for a bit, I now think that Cell is going to be at the bottom of this list. Considering how much the next arc is influenced by Toriyama's editor instead of Toriyama himself, and how the tone will be far more serious in keeping with that of the Freeza arc rather than a mix of modern and classic Dragon Ball, I just don't see Cell surpassing Boo.
In the Boo arc, it seems like Toriyama just tosses out an abundance of new concepts to see what sticks, and while some of those ideas fail, and I'm personally not a huge fan of the somewhat flippant tone of the arc, there's still more going on with it. The Cell arc, by comparison, seems far more formulaic - like there isn't as much heart put into it. Just my personal thoughts given your comments thus far.
It really is a tough case to make. Both arcs are pretty mediocre compared to what other shows have done, hell, they're mediocre compared to what *Dragon Ball* had done before. Yet they still have their own redeeming elements. At that point, it mainly comes down to what aggravates you more.
The Cell arc seems far less eventfull. Probably beacuse most of the fights take place at the same place and we just revisit alot of the same areas from before.
IMO the Buu arc starts of really great, it's comfy and you get a real feel of family between the characters, Gohans superhero shenanigans and Trunks vs Goten are just delightful to me and despite the action being pretty poorly executed there were still a few great moments for Vegeta.
Pretty much my argument why buu arc is 3 and cell arc is 1. The editors (primarily) pretty much decided who would be the main antagonist of the Cell arc while Majin Buu arc is pretty much set
I can see now that honestly Toriyama's editor was his real crutch though because Toriyama clearly needed his ideas source checked and altered before they could work without the on-spot contradictions that came from just Toriyama spit-balling his plot devices. Its why the Cell arc at the least of it plot-wised felt more streamlined than the other Toriyama helmed arcs, (and leagues more coherent than the awful Zamasu arc). The Boo arc was a safe in between, as yes it has certain hiccups in it, but the amount of reasonable silliness in it while having weight in the plot was what made it feel like dragonball at heart, to its strength where as the Freeza arc has so much implied philosophy that in execution a lot of the actions done didnt really make sense when put together. Granted the Cell arc in its process was forgettable but it at least felt like it had direction unlike most of the other arcs after the Saiyan Saga.
"Is goku space Jesus now?" -- Great video lance
Toriyama turns him into space Jesus. Then gets mad that Toei took inspiration from it. I don't get Toriyama. He makes it worse i.e. Minus. Oh Toriyama you make so much sense.
Toriyama admires Bardock story. Also Toriyama: retcons Bardock🙃
@@bryanc7094 To be clear, Toriyama only said he incorporated the "theme" of the Bardock special. His retcon was fair. DBM patched up the issue for why Goku was sent away right before the planet's destruction.
@@spartanq7781 That scene wasn't a big deal. Goku just gave Frieza enough energy to survive/escape the blast. It's not like he fully healed him to where he regenerated Frieza's lower body.
@@TonyMishima92 THANK YOU! This guy in the video obviously doesn't get it.
yes the saiyan arc is the only arc were wounds meant anything in DBZ. The Vegeta fight is by far the best of the entire series.
That's what he said in that arc. I agree. This arc takes it away. Cell and Majain Boo (especially the latter) use absurd regeneration. Which makes fights feel unimportant until the story decides it's over. Those arcs and the latter half of this one boil down to who has the most power? It gets subverted at least in a good way at the climax to the Boo arc. So at least there is that.
I'm gonna call Cell at 3 and Buu at 1. Cell is unfocused to be sure but it pulls off satisfying payoffs for several characters whereas Buu is like this perpetual string of blue balls until the very last second. Each twist in Cell at least mixes things up and adds a new layer to the story while Buu is just another groan-inducing moment that makes this already long ass arc even longer. Cell's progression from sneaky cheeki breeki to begging for his life pathetically to finally the ultimate (if bland) opponent is a more fun read/watch than Fat Buu's progression to Buuhan.
Yes, Mr. Buu and Mr. Satan's relationship is cute, and Vegeta's character arc ending are nice but the latter required them to reset Vegeta a bit. He got his final serving of humble pie in the Cell arc when he watched his son die, seeing him relapse into villainy via midlife crisis was a clever idea but ultimately left a bad taste in my mouth. To me, it felt like Vegeta's development was done, but Toriyama wanted another high stakes Goku v Vegeta fight, so we got evil Vegeta again. That fight is great, one of the series' best(though it's not really featured in the manga), but then we find out about Super Saiyan 3. A blue balling so hard that it retroactively blue balls you on the satisfaction of a previous fight.
Side note: It probably takes MistareFusion insane willpower to not immediately jump into the comments and divulge his thoughts on the Cell vs Buu debate.
Oh, definitely.
Damn I have a feeling that this comment is more or less gonna be what Lance says when he Dissects the Majin Vegeta Scenario
@@Pokemonleafmon :)
Congrats on your prediction!
@@MistareFusion layered two words right there
Wow, congratulations on finishing the first of the big three arcs. I really admire and appreciate all the hard work you put into this series. Much of your criticisms are things that always bothered me about this arc, ever since I first saw it as a child. And most of it stayed this way even after reading the manga and finally being able to watch the Japanese version.
And I found it very frustrating how it was usually ignored by the larger fandom. So seeing it being pointed out in such a professional manner feels rather satisfying.
You know what I just realized? _Piccolo, Yamcha, Tien, and Chiaotzu never learned the kaio-ken or spirit bomb._ That's baffling. We never see them attempt or even mention these things, and some of these characters were in situations where it seems like they really would've used it. Like when Tien attacked Buuhan or when they fought Cell or the Cell Jrs, why didn't they use the max kaio-ken they could do? Why didn't King Kai teach these things to them? It would've been nice to see that still get used even if it wouldn't amount to much instead of ceasing to exist after Super Saiyan was introduced.
See, this is why the video games hold a special place in my heart, Ten and Yamcha(not Piccolo unfortunately but hey Orange Piccolo) have Kaioken in some games because it just makes sense!
I'll defend this ending on a more thematic standpoint like Goku giving Freeza some energy out of pity.
I'm kind of surprised you didn't mention Dende, Nail and the Namekians in your final breakdown. I mean, if you're talking about missed opportunities, they were it. Perhaps the only characters who would be able to stick around and add something to the series, and they end up dying off-screen, dying on-screen, and going to places unknown pretty much off-screen. And I'm sure lots of people have said it already, but I assumed the whole 'Goku giving ki to Freeza' was less stopping him from dying and more giving him the energy to move on his own so he could potentially escape the planet if he found a ship or something. If you're bleeding to death, you'd bleed to death no matter how much ki someone gave you.
It'll be fun going to DB TV. At the very least, we can save some time before you get into the Cell Arc and probably break my heart by pointing out the flaws of post-Freeza Dragon Ball even though it's honestly the most interesting part of the series to me. Ah, well. Maybe I'll be able to figure out why I like it by the time we get to it.
MozillaVulpix That's true. I always thought removing the Namekians was pointless since Dende comes back anyway during the Cell arc and the other Namekians play a big role at the end of Buu.
It also would've been cool to see Nail or the other Namekians have a bigger role in the Freeza arc. Even if they can't fight, maybe they could've used special magic abilities like telepathy or creating illusions to throw off Freeza or something.
Idk. It just seems odd that Vegeta pointed out that Namekians have "strange magic abilities" in the Saiyan arc, but we only ever see them use healing or normal martial arts. They don't use other magical abilities as far as I can tell.
The way I see Goku's acceptance of himself is that he accepted himself in the Saiyan arc, then fully accepted himself in the Namek arc, which allowed him to figure his way around his limits as a Saiyan in the Android arc. Here's my analysis on the matter:
In the Namek arc, Vegeta reveals to Goku while dying at the hands of Frieza the truth behind Planet Vegeta's (Saiyan planet) destruction, that it was Frieza who destroyed the planet. Goku, although still hating both Vegeta and the Saiyans, couldn't help but respect Vegeta for crying and begging to him, because of how hard it must've been for someone as prideful as Vegeta to do it. It was a level of pride Goku can relate to being a Saiyan himself, because it wasn't Vegeta liking the Saiyans which Goku can never do that filled his emotions, but it was how the Saiyans were the source of Vegeta's own pride, of what he is. And although Goku has opposing beliefs to Vegeta, he wanted to share Vegeta's pride out of respect. Meaning, taking pride in himself and his own beliefs as a Saiyan raised on earth. That's why Goku choose to fight for the Saiyans, because Frieza enslaving the Saiyans was an insult to what Goku is. This marked Goku's full acceptance of who he is to the point that he's willing to defend it.
During the fight with Frieza, Frieza pointed out how hypocritical it is to fight for the Saiyans despite how evil they are. With Goku responding with that's what led to their demise. This showed that although Goku was willing to defend the Saiyans, he's still doesn't defend them based on how right or wrong they are, but by what they actually are. Goku himself still believes being a Saiyan can led to him doing wrong things, but still accepted it rather than trying to defend how right it is to do it.
Goku believed his presence was creating real danger for those he loves hence why he decided to stay dead, which was him finding an equilibrium between his desire to fight vs his desire to protect the earth which he was only able to do by accepting himself like he did in the Saiyan arc. If he continued to celebrate what he is (after King Kai told him in the Saiyan arc) by being overly proud of the perks being a Saiyan provided, he would've ignored his limitations due to his proudness and ended up thinking he doesn't need to stay dead and can happily defend against any strong threats that shows up. If he continued to loath what he is (After Radtiz told him) he would've referred to himself only as an earthling and not own up to what he is which would've lead to him not thinking too much on his limitations by ignoring what being a Saiyans means for him, leading to him not thinking the earth is better off without him. Accepting himself like he did was the result of his purity that was strengthened throughout his arc, the purity that is the central point of who he is no matter how much it conflicts with his feelings. His pure desire to fight.
Also how is Goku able to refuse Dende's wish to bring him back to Earth? When Dende wished everyone but Goku and Freeza from Namek to Earth it happened instantaneously. Porunga didn't ask each individual person whether or not they wanted to leave.
The same thing happens in the next arc with King Kai being able to reject Yamcha's wish for Cell's victims to be resurrected. Again, when Shenlong resurrected Goku during the Saiyan arc it was automatic.
Every new DBD is a great moment
I'm gonna call it right now:
3 - Majin Buu Arc
1 - Artificial Humans Arc
Joshua Yule he's confirmed he thinks buu > cell on other platforms actually
Yeah, that is probably what's going to happen. Given the things that bother him the most in these analysis videos there is no way the mess that the Androids/Cell arc is won't be bottom 1. Unless MistareFusion absolutely loves Gohan or something.
Cell arc has a ton of issues when you really analyze it
Joshua Yule Nope. The GohanxVidel relationship, Vegeta's redemption, Mr Satan and fat Boo's friendship, the humor and the final Genki Dama are what elevate Boo over Cell in my opinion.
I would hope Cell is #3 and Boo is #1. The Boo arc is very disjointed: Super Saiyan Bargain sales, major plot contrivances. The plot literally changing its mind and setting up a fake ending 3 whole times with Gotenks , Gohan, and Vegetto before coming to an actual ending. SSJ3 coming out of literally nowhere with no build up at all. Vegeta being a total jackass as Majin Vegeta, killing innocent people and being responsible for the whole Boo outcome (at least in the Cell Arc it was semi explained why he did what he did, as bad as it was). Boos absurd transformations, pulling out the absorbing out of his ass. The ending with Uub being super random, Goku ditching his family to train a random kid. Majin Boo's ball just HAPPENING to be on Earth of ALL places out of ALL the planets in the solar system. Honestly, the Boo Arc made sense up until Babidi's spaceship, then everything was a huge mess.
I love the way you rate the arcs it's very honest. Most people would say the Freeza arc or Cell arc are the best just because they are popular.
I still question how Goku could just say no to a wish being made on him.
Apparently the dragons ask people first and then they can say no or yes. It makes no sense.
@@spartanq7781 I know it's GT but... well in GT Goku had no choice in becoming a kid again. But then it's GT, so it didn't have Ultra Kami Toriyama making the decisions.
The only wish I can think of in the original Dragonball that you'd think would also potentially give people a choice would be making everyone forget Majin Boo.
Oh wait, when everyone got moved off Namek, Gohan and Vegeta were surprised and confused at first.
The *only* way I can reasonably explain how Goku could refuse the wish, is that whole thing about a dragon being capped by the power of their creator. A now Super Saiyan Goku vastly eclipsed Kami by that point.
But still, it just feels far too glossed over, even TFS couldn't come up with an explanation that's not a joke.
@spartanq7781 But what doesn't make sense is that the dragon didn't ask everyone else who he transported to earth if they wanted to.
@ShaimingLong i mean... it is a joke
It isn't a great excuse, but it is a joke
I just realised that in essence Freezer is just Tao Pai Pai all over again...
both are the strongest enemy of an army, in an arc about the hunt of the dragon balls,
both wears pink (well freezer didn´t wear pink but still his skin is pink in three forms)
both kills someone throw him away in the air (Bora and Krillin) with the presence of Goku and a child (Upa and Gohan)
both are strongest than Goku until he gains a power-up (Karin´s wáter and Super Saiyan transformation)
both were defeated after that power-up
both begs Goku for mercy
both were forgiven by Goku, just to attack him almost immediately
both apparently end up dying in the arc of their introduction
both returns later with an older member of their respective family and with mechanic new parts of their bodies to get revenge
both end up being defeated by a more serious fighter that later fights Goku
both have their last manga appearances in an arc with a green final villain and both returns two times in the anime
True
Only difference is that Freeza actually had character, where Tao Pai Pai is probably one of the most boring villains in the original manga.
Another awesome video. I can't wait to see where you rank the next 2.
i can't wait for you to deal with the return of Tao P- er i mean Freeza.
Your jokes just reigns it in that twice Goku supposedly killed a villain. Then suddenly there not dead and return as a cyborg. To then get defeated be another character. Even though Goku could have easily taken them out by that point. I hate it in both instances. The two should of just died. Cold could have came to Earth without Freeza for the same effect.
Well, that was a fun ride. As for future arcs, the Cell arc is one of my favorites, so I'm a little disappointed that at this point it can't score better than a 3. I'm interested to hear your opinions, though!
@16:20: I've always thought Goku's flip flopping mindset was a result of Goku trying not to lose his original self/sanity in the new Super Saiyan form. As in, the conscious pure Goku mind fighting within himself with the unconscious Super Saiyan primal mind.
As an aside, I've always like Goku''s facial expression in @5:17 when he finishes Freeza- shows his sympathetic ' human' side coming through despite the primal Super Saiyan attributes.
That's what I've always thought as well. We see later in dragon ball that Goku has more control over the super Saiyan form, but here it looks like he's struggling to keep control of himself. That is what I've always thought the flip flopping meant
It's either that or Toriyama never really thought too deep into it and just had another case of bad writting. Just like when he said that frieza'd be uncontrolable in his final form....
Even if he was controlling his "human" side...first try?! You'd think he'd need a training arch to get a hang of super saiyan....but again, bad writting or coincidence? Though choice....
herobrinext9 he was away for a year to master it, and he didn't. He did manage to however gain somewhat of a handle over it
I'm talking about how he managed to use it perfectly with no set-back in the fight against frieza, when fireza him-self had trouble using his final form 100% without getting tired. You know how stupid it is for an MC to master something first try, no conseguences? Can you see how lazy it is? If it's bad writting in the Force Awakens when Rey mastered the force on the get go then it's lazy here. If the writting says he can't control him-self just to show him doing it, then it's bad writting. There is no excuse
Big dumb ending? This is going to be good.
The Patrolman Well he's not wrong
@@disneyandweeb591 Even as a kid I thought this ending was so dumb.
Damn, I never expected the Cell arc to be in the Top 3 Worst Dragon Ball arcs. But again, you've pointed out some problems about the Freeza arc that I never really noticed. And this is the kind of analysis or review that I like: the ones that make me think, not the ones that necessarily match my opinion. You can tell that Toriyama was really desperate sometimes to get things moving, thus unbalancing the arc. Rushing plot points at times, tedious crap on others.
I don't know anymore, but there's no chance in hell that the Buu arc is going to be better ranked than the Cell arc. The Cell arc tells a story, the Buu arc tells a series of fights and power ups without any substance. But knowing Dragon Ball Dissection, I could be wrong about this lol.
Now that I think about it, the Freeza arc was pretty underwhelming in way that could have needed an editor onto revise or correct, because of Toriyama's habit for just skimming things or dragging out things during writer's block. Even while considering its good build up after the Saiyan arc, I can see why it on an objective retrospect, a lot of its flaws come from the bad shortcuts taken in it along with its jerky pacing problems, but then the worsening later have of it having the constant contradictions between character personalities and the Dragonballs. The reason I can respect this review is because it actually deconstructs the arc as a story in how well it flows, without the biases of the fanboy drivel and "turn your brain off and enjoy the ride" arguments used to invalidate criticism, just because to them seeing the transformation of Super Saiyan, or dick-riding Vegeta is all that matters to them. Pretty much like the usual stuff from most of the fandom. Its one thing to enjoy the arc for its passable strengths, but its another thing to judge its literary quality based on your hype or nostalgia-diddled memories.
Congrats getting here Lance another great job explaining the story telling aspects with objectivity and with love as a fan of the franchise; you've definitely helped looked at the franchise in a different way flaws and all. Love Dragon Ball and this was the video series it needed! Can't wait for the 23rd budokai tv edition!
I'm glad he was able to give an unbiased objective analysis, because the fanbase seems quite incapable of that most of the time.
This arc ends so unsatisfyngly and abrupt. Leaving so many plot threads like Vegeta open. This series clearly was never intended to end here. Now if more time was spent on it and Vegeta remained dead or turned good then I can see it. The way it is this couldn't work as the end.
Toryama said that he never intended to end the series at the end of the freeza arc. However he also stated that he wanted to end the series earlier than what he did
@@guilhermefranco2930 Really? How early? After Goku defeated Piccolo Jr?
@@cliffbot638 Toryama never stated when exactly. Just did he originally planned to make it shorter
@@guilhermefranco2930 He did, and two times actually.
The first was right after the Dragon Balls were used by Pilaf, (well Oolong) leaving the manga as nothing different than the rest of his one-shots such as Dragon Boy, Sand Land, etc.
The second was when the anime staff told him to choose a new name for the series, in which he replied "Dragon Ball Z", why? Because the Z means that he's close to ending the story.
Yeah, that last one didn't hold itself up very much huh?
But it means that Toriyama *probably* intended to end it all after the Saiyan arc.
@@Dexuz wow I completely forgot the first one
Your writing & insight is so dang good this series is just endlessly entertaining!
I just realized, this arc could've ended a lot sooner if the heroes had used logic when making their wishes on the Namekian Dragonballs.
Namek Wish #1: Revive Piccolo, and leave him at Kaio's.
Namek Wish #2: Teleport all the good guys and the corpses of slain Namekians to Earth.
Then use Earth's Dragonballs to revive dead Namekians. They would all revive on Earth and avoid being killed again by Freeza or his men.
They could've avoided fighting Freeza altogether if they'd used their heads instead of wishing Piccolo into the fight.
That gets much worse in the next arc.
Except Goku came to namek specifically to fight Freeza
thats a good plan but i also accept using wish 2 and 3 to wish Goku and Gohan immortality
The way Vegeta's character arc develops (particularly in how it contrasts and relates to Goku, as you mentioned) throughout the time when we first meet him to his death against Freeza is honestly beautiful.
Thank you so much for your work on these videos, i absolutely love them.
I think Son Goku was the most consistent during Dragon Ball. In Z he became too battle crazy. He always enjoyed fighting but until King Piccolo it was just sport if you will. Goku during the Z era is a bi-poler, battle crazed and jolly nice guy. It can be jarring.
WolfFistProductions I learned a new word this week to explain Goku's inconsistent character writing: Flanderization.
It's when one character trait gets exaggerated to the point where it becomes their ONLY trait. Goku went from being a guy who liked fighting but also cared about his friends and family, to being a guy who willing endangers people around him just so he can get a good fight.
brabbit330 In the Buu arc that seems to be fixed.
@@Prodigy396 no
At some point people really do come off as apologist due to defending a scene just because "they" don't question it.
While not having a problem with energy sharing, the scene in question just doesn't make any sense because it's not even consistent with how energy sharing was shown to work just a few chapters earlier. Why would having Ki give Freeza the endurance to withstand being literally a floating torso losing blood with his organs hanging out? He was barely hanging onto life anyway because fiction, but it really should've been left at that.
I defend the mercy scene not because I don’t question it, more because I’m able to forgive it. Even as a kid I questioned logic behind frieza surviving being cut in half and how a little bit of energy could save him...but I wasn’t too bothered by it because it lead to some great character and thematic moments between him and Goku. It’s kind of like how fans of Terminator 1 & 2 give the movies a pass for having confusing or contradictory time travel logic, but crucify the other sequels for the same mistakes. If the trade off is a good enough story, a few stumbles in the writing can be forgiven.
WE DID IT! The end of frieza arc and the beginning of my favourite arc, the androids, it's sad to know you dislike it already but hey, different people have different tastes, still loving your dissection, let's hope it won't take centuries to go through the cell arc :D
Been waiting this episode so I could watch the entire arc in one go. Great analysis as always!
Man am I looking forward to the years ahead for the Android and Boo arcs as well as DBDTV, this is my favourite Dragon Ball channel on youtube, I haven't gotten such food for thought about Dragon Ball from anywhere else! Keep up the fantastic work.
11:07 This line kinda sparked a bit of creative shonen writing in me.
I agree with the portion of fans that say that Yamcha, Tienshinhan, Piccolo (and Chaozu if you care lol) should have learned the Kaioken and Genkidama to keep them somewhat relevant for a bit longer. I like that idea but there's always the concept of Kaioken being redundant or impractical, and essentially run its course in terms of plot usage in the Saiyan saga.
So what if we did something similar to what Vegeta did in the Moro arc. And have the lads learn some new technique that Goku doesn't, or even better
What if they learned/came up with a combination of the Kaioken and Genkidama, name it something like the Genkiken or something like that.
The way it'd work would be combining the life energy sharing aspect of the genkidama, and the power up of the kaioken, without the intense strain on the body. So let's say, Tien, Chiaotzu and Yamcha (I'd imagine piccolo wouldn't be into having any sort link with these 3 guys he doesn't know) activate this technique, They have some sort of link whereby their Ki is in some sort of conceptual "pool", where any one of them at a time can dip into that pool and use energy from the other two fighters. So it's like for a particular instance one fighter is using the power of 3. It could be a cool way to represent the bond of trust and comradery between these human fighters set up over all the years. while also allowing them to somewhat feasibly keep up in terms of power.
I could imagine them fighting, let's say Android 20 or something, Krillin's power spikes for an instant as he attacks, and then drops, you see yamcha's spike shortly after, and so on. i could even see a villain finding a potential counter by taking the risk of tanking a hit from the powered up fighter for the oppurtunity of eliminating one of the weakened one.
I know for a fact Toriyama would never have implemented something like this bc he likes to keep his fights simple and streamlined, and more power to him for it he's the millionaire here. But yeah this was just a fun stream of consciousness concept writing exercise on a 6 year old video.
edit/extra:
it would also better separate them from the more loner Saiyans style of fighting. It could also demonstrate the inginuinity of these human martial artists by having them come up with new techniques using ki that no saiyan would have ever come up with (being that all vegeta's moves are really strong beams or balls of energy). It would feasible for them to learn this while Goku didn't, as they were able to train in a group and therefore come up with group techniques. Now that i think about it, it could even explain how in this very Namek arc, Piccolo randomly introduces the idea of sharing ki with comrades. While he wouldn't've learned it to the degree of the humans due to being more of a loner, he could have still learned the basic principles of simply giving or transferring. and THAT could even set up Goku healing Freeza near the end. Like he observes Piccolo use the energy lending, or even has Piccolo use it on him once to boost him, and since he has a proclivity for picking up techniques quickly. That's plausible as we see even in Super, that Freeza uses that energy lending on Goku in the ToP, likely having learned it from Goku using it on him back on Namek. But yeah like i said Toriyam-sensei doesn't care much holistic power systems so i'm sure this is really fanficky sounding. but hey I embrace that.
The Freeza arc is definitly sonething else. I'm glad I could watch these dissection videos to help understand the series as a whole, and especially this arc, in greater detail. Thank you.
Holy crap it's the ending! Feels like forever since you began covering this arc it now feels weird to see you cover something else!
So how does the Garlic Jr. Arc rank? 15/10, right? :^)
Concept was cool, better than majority of the movies to be sure.
When you think about it, it had pretty high stakes and there were no fallbacks. Goku and Vegeta were out of sight and Piccolo's life was in danger, thus putting the Earth Dragon Balls in jeopardy. Instant Transmission wasn't a thing yet, so Namek's Dragon Balls were (for now) forever gone. It was all up to Gohan and Krillin to save the day. Despite its flaws, at least it set up proper stakes, which is something the franchise will fail to do almost completely from here on out.
Pure Rage Uh, new namek still existed. Dragon balls were there
+Demitri Sackor
But no one knew where it was (because it wasn't where the original Namek was) and Instant Transmission wasn't a thing yet. That's why the Namekian Dragon Balls were "gone" (i.e. out of the heroes' grasp). Within the scope of the arc, the stakes were set up pretty well.
I'll concede that. I will admit that I do like the idea of a powerful villain coming along that's not necessarily stronger than the strongest hero, but still challenging enough for the people who are still around.
That said, Garlic opening the Dead Zone AGAIN is pretty dumb considering how well that worked out the first time.
That Paris is Burning reference was a 10/10, Thanks for another great episode!
Yay, someone actually got that! I almost cut that part out because I didn't think there was any way anyone would understand it.
Thanks so much for this, a hurricane's about to hit and It's great that I got finish watching this arc's dissection.
Yeah...the 'giving you energy' thing Goku pulls is an incredibly stupid one-off. The fact that it is a one-off makes it even worse. If it was something unique to super saiyans and was used again in the future....at least you could ARGUE that it is a new trait. It would actually be substantiated a bit by the fact that SS Goku revived a dead bird in Cooler's Revenge.
But considering that it remained as a one-off....it really should not have happened, and it instead should have been played up in a 'Freeza is so tough and powerful that even after being chopped in half he used his last bit of life to try and kill Goku' kind of way...as opposed to a scenario where he begs Goku for energy, gets it, THEN tried to kill Goku. It just should have been Freeza's own power and hatred and clinging to life and a last-ditch effort of his own to take Goku out with him.
7:28-7:40 I hated this solution. It was so stupid. And the whole time I was screaming that this whole problem is stupid begin with. There are 2 obvious solutions. 1st you have 3 wishes!! So use one to revive them and a second one to teleport them to earth. Or even easier, they can just wish Namek back and then resurrect them.
If the intro for the android saga is not unmei no hi tamashi vs tamashi I riot Jajajaja
Great video as always dude
Interesting points Lance. I never thought about things in this arc that way. Great video as usual 👍🏽👍🏽.
UA-cam has not failed me this time, now I'm on time to an episode of dissection
Great video as always!
I can't wait 'till you review the Buu arc, it's my personal favorite but I know it's not really good :D
"I guess he keeps all of his ki in his legs then"
i laughed at that harder than I should have
I will defend a few points as I did in the forums:
The whole Goku sharing Ki with Freeza with a supposed blast looked a lot different in the Anime where it was more of an wave-like energy than a visible blast so that explains why many fans have hardly been quite up in arms about it. In addition, it seemed to not so much keep him from dying so much as delay it. Who's to say Freeza's still not in constant pain over the loss of his, well, everything?
I mean, you could argue that it could've worked on Goku with Piccolo and/or Krillin but given his gaping chest wound, they wouldn't have made it in time most likely.
There's also how Goku's essentially showing Freeza less so mercy so much as pity, adding on how the dude's just not worth putting down he's so pathetic. The once great tyrant of the universe, now a complete wreck. Freeza could've tries to float on away but instead he was once again the instrument of his demise. So I personally appreciate the poeticness despite how flimsy the basis of it admittedly is.
As for how rushed the resurrections are... yes, as far as the Manga goes, it feels like an author just wanting to get it done. It's weird because as a writer, I would've wanted to take it easy with the next few chapter before going into a whole new story arc. You know, have just a chapter where the character celebrate their return. Hell, I could've easily seen the Manga showing the Namekians adjusting to Earth life. It always feels like Toriyama could've stood to make some filler of his own if only to destress after a major ongoing story. Maybe his editors feared readers getting bored or something but that's neither here nor there.
I think what makes the arc a fan favorite despite the flaws would be how the Freeza battles are put to animation. There's something about action in motion compared to sequential art that always gets people favoring the latter. I properly saw the arc on DBZ Kai so a large part of the dragging filler was avoided and even the slugfests were fun to watch. Speaking of Kai, I appreciate it kept the filler of Gohan trying to keep Freeza on Namek as it goes boom. Even if Goku came back, it was nice to see addition development for who's essentially the secondary protagonist of the Z era.
5 years late, but you put "sequential art" after Animation making it the "latter", which means you've accidentally said that people prefer sequential art, despite arguing for Animation .
holy shit, I was LITETALLY just thinking about when the finale would air. Thank you for answering my oddly specific dreams!
I kind of just assumed that the ki blast didnt "heal" Freeza exactly. Its just that it restore his energy and with his extreme survivability (being able to breathe in space and all) that thats all he needed to survive in that instance.
Although now that im confronted with this in more depth, i guess theres no reason that Goku should have assumed that to all be the case. Idk
Another killer video Lance. glad you made it through alright despite all the florida madness. Love DBD as it completely flips this series I love on it's head and makes me analyze other media critically as well. Can't wait to see how the coming months turn out and my heart goes out to you when thinking about dealing with the comments section once the Cell Games rolls around. Can't wait for the next one.
This is the first time I saw that you can actually see Frieza's intestines hanging out after he was cut in half, damn
Everytime a new DBD is posted I re-watch the entire DBD series it's basically a tradition at this point.
I swear I've just found this channel n I've been rewatching it at least 5x this month
Goku's ki blast reviving Freeza is beyond stupid. Why the hell is this suddenly a thing in this series? Toriyama should had Goku leave Freeza. That way Freeza surviving and arriving on Earth would have a far greater impact. Goku would also not look like a moron sparing someone he threatened to kill earier.
200 chapters is just two arcs? The funny thing is both of them could have been the shortest arcs. Had the characters been smart. As you pointed out at the beginning of the Cell arc. They get another chance to end the arc early in the Boo arc. At least there they attempted to end it quickly.
Excellent work as always and yeah I agree with pretty much all your points, Goku's change and Sayian Heritage, inconsistent behavior though wow it is worse than I thought, how rushed and messy it feels, it was nice Yamcha got something to do, also Vegeta being the one to suggest that rankles me cos it feels like forcing him to be relevant.
Thank for all your hard work!
Well about Vegeta it's worse than that. He has no reason suggesting the idea in the first place. He should jump at the opportunity to kill everyone. He promises to do so when he returns to Earth. Freeza is already defeated so there is nothing keeping their fragile alliance. So not only is it a way to make Vegeta relevant it also ignores the fact that he is still evil. A lot of people seem to think for whatever reason he was suddenly good but he wasn't at this point.
Goku's head plastered over White Mage Refia's official art is one of the funniest things I ever saw in my life.
I love the naturally logical questions that always follow implications in the series. For example, King guys dominion over planets and his portion of the galaxy and how it really works in the grand scheme of things
Great stuff as always Lance.
Man, I'm scared to see where you'll put the Cell Arc.
Wow the whole ki blast thing thing never even occurred to me. Holy shit that blew my mind lmaooo
Notice when Tien died in the saiyan saga he had no shirt but on King Kai's planet he has a tank top lol
Amazing video. Tyvm, you are the best db youtuber out there.
Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoy my work!
I do, and opens my eyes to things I haven't considered before. Your contribution to the DB community is unique. I also like too somewhat lesser extent Hail Zeon and Mozilla Vulpix, but not so much the others like Geekdom, Qaaman, LSM & co (they aren't "bad," they just don't leave a positive lasting impression like you do) . I agree whole-heartedly with your comments on Goku's ability to 'heal' Freeza and how poorly that was written, for example, and the implications that arise from it for the story. I don't think Toriyama is an exceptional writer, and unfortunately he has & had little incentive to reverse his trend and improve the story for the more mature portion of his audience.
On a separate note, back in DBD The Saiyan Arc Part 3 @6-8 minutes, you referred to Piccolo telling Gohan "If he is going to blame anything, blame his fate." What followed was GOLD, and exemplifies what you are capable off :D. Further along the story, this concept of fate Vs the individual is reinforced in the anime dub when Piccolo tells Kuririn ".. for the first time Vegeta's fighting for someone other than himself... controlling his own fate." It ALWAYS tears me up. Point is, keep up the brilliant work for you open people's eyes more then Toriyama can - thank you immensely. Lengthy replies, I am truly sorry!
Ah the library! You're one of the most literate people I've ever met :D A PhD in readin'!
I'm loving the series so far! But I've gotta know, will you stop after Buu? Or will you go on to cover Super, either the anime or the manga?
“I hope there’s never a name for Yoda’s species”
Damn, sorry the Mandalorian mighta ruined that for you.
Tell me Freeza's not called a "Phrygian" now
I thought it was a Parseegian?
@@BagOfMagicFood I just consider him an Arcosian....and I know that's a dub term, but I couldn't care less.
@@mitchfletcher2386 the problem is not only that term is dub only but characters shown in that flashback look nothing like frieza's race
I think I have to agree that Vegeta should have remained dead after Freeza killed him, as much as I enjoy Vegeta as a villain, he makes little sense to me as a father, husband, anti-hero, whatever. I didn't use to feel this way, but nowadays its hard not to think of Vegeta as the Sasuke Uchiha of Dragonball, i.e. the asshole who gets away with unforgivable crimes because the main character likes having him around and the leading lady has a thing for him. I mean, I DO believe in redemption, I DO believe in second chances and forgiveness, but there IS a limit to how much evil someone can do before all of that becomes completely out of the question. Vegeta committed genocide on an intergalactic scale, not just on Freeza's orders, but because he WANTED to do so, because he personally enjoyed killing people and destroying planets for fun & to prove his princely saiyan superiority, so how is this guy worthy of not only being allowed to remain on earth, but settle down and start a family with Bulma, Goku's oldest friend?! He doesn't even have Piccolo Jr.'s excuse of being his dad's reincarnation, i.e. he paid for his past crimes with his previous life and is now a different person, who despite starting out evil, doesn't really get around to doing as much wickedness as his dad/past self because he focused all his attention on killing Goku, his dad's killer. Piccolo's redemption made sense, Vegeta's, not so much....I mean, if Freeza hadn't been in the way, & he hadn't been distracted by Goku and the obsession to become a super saiyan, he would have certainly assumed the role of intergalactic tyrant in Freeza's stead given the chance. Sorry for the long comment, its just an aspect of the character I've grown critical of over the years, and it doesn't help that there are WAY too many saiyans and super saiyans as time goes by either.
No need to apologize. I completely agree.
Definitely with you here, maybe if we actually saw why he's tolerated by the Namekians and Bulma and saw him actually change but 99% of Vegeta's character development is off-screen so even the big moments don't really land to me cos all I see is the same arrogant, consequences dodging jerkass suddenly displaying emotions we never saw before. Plus, yeah it undercuts his pretty moving death which otherwise worked very well and jams him into this role at the expense of his own character, Bulma's, Yamcha's and kind of everyone's really.
@@vazak11the characters in DB generally don't care, see how nobody is really bothered by zeno being the greatest genocider to ever exist
This is a show were millions of dead people can be wished back to life. That's why Vegeta's crimes aren't taken THAT seriously by the others.
@@vazak11 what consequences did he ever dodge?
It's great how you make notice things that probably many (including me) have not noticed before. Keep it up!
I had my doubts, but still, I had previously commented that The Freeza arc would get the five position.
Okay, here's my prediction:
3. Majin Boo arc
1. Cell arc
Plot twist: There is a tie.
Feel welcome to tell me if I am wrong after everything is over.
Goddammit.
Lol, I saw the thumb nail and thought that you had Goku in a KKK outfit LOL
In a world with the Clothes Beam and randomly generating psychic powers, I'm not about to question a life-sustaining ki blast.
Fun fact: Toriyama rushed the ending because all he cared about was getting to the initial Super Saiyan transformation for the sole purpose of utilizing a Bruce Lee visual reference. He outright said that he lamented that he had to write an actual fight afterwards, so it's no wonder it was so slapdash.
As for the loss of physical impact, that's definitely a major flaw for me, but that's just a natural consequence of battle powers growing so great in martial arts fantasy. Look at just about any story in the wuxia and especially xianxia genres, which greatly informed Dragon Ball's whole style. Xianxia stories fall into the exact same trap of having cosmically powerful martial artists fighting each other in weightless, zero-damage battles. It's not exactly a good trope, but it's expected.
I may be in the minority here but the Freeza arc has always been my least favorite story arc. As messy as the Buu arc gets, we at least get various changes in locations to add a sense of variety (the tournament, Babidi's spaceship, the Room of Spirit and Time, Kaioshin's planet) and I love how Vegeta's character arc was wrapped up. It's still messy as hell and goes on for way longer than it should but I still get more enjoyment out of that arc whereas I'm always bored every time I read the Freeza arc. Great job as always!
Did I just miss it or did you not talk about Frieza being inspired by land sharks, who were a big problem in Japan around this arc's time? Or was that information revealed after the dissection of this Arc? Not a big loss, just curious about your opinion on that.
The moments I remembered most fondly and distinctly from this arc were definitely the Vegeta fights, while Goku's were blurred. So this evaluation has been insightful.
Can't wait to see things go more down hill in the future.
Hey, I really like your your videos and your points make me think of dbz manga with a whole different point of view
As a fan, I'll admit I'm bias and like the arcs regardless but these videos, visually and commentary wise are great !
Hey Lance, I had a question for you. How is Kuririn and Gohan sharing energy with Piccolo different from Goku sharing the Genkidama with Kuririn? The Genkidama is at least partly ki, right?
Well, what makes that different (and more plausible) to me is that it's neither Goku nor Kuririn's personal ki to begin with (well, maybe a tiny portion of it is Kuririn's genki). It's gathered from other sources and doesn't really belong to any one person. So it's not even like other ki attacks that are essentially a person gathering up their own ki and focusing it into something destructive. So given that relatively unique nature of the attack, I can accept that it's something that can be passed from person to person.
But more importantly, and tying in with the fact that it's not ki that "belongs" to any one person, they are only sharing the attack. Kuririn doesn't get stronger. He doesn't recover from anything. He's not replenished. He's just holding onto a ball.
i always figured goku's ki blast only gave frieza some energy to try and escape from namek himself. frieza was simply exhausted.
Juh...Goku warning Frieza about dodging and giving him life saving energy.
Wow you opening my eyes here.
Whoa,did the healing ki blast inspire the healing Kamehameha from Dragonball Evolution?!
7:31 I just noticed that tiny Vegeta in the background of Bulma talking has his old armor on.
20:45 Goku's spaceship was based on a Saiyan spaceship which could have been technology from Frieza's forces. Or maybe it was made by Tuffles, I am not good at keeping Dragon Ball canon straight.
As for how Goku could figure out how to operate it; Goku is the son of the brilliant scientist Bardock. Science and technology are in Goku's genes. Why do you think Bardock choose to save Goku and not Raditz, leaving Raditz to fend for himself? Because he saw that one day Goku would be a brilliant scientist capable of operating any spaceship. Goku's passion for science and studying has been a common thread in Dragon Ball all since the first episode, where Goku is seen studying the four star Dragon Ball. And in Dragon Ball Z we follow Gohan's endeavor to follow in his father's footsteps and become the greatest scientist ever.
I have 2 questions:
Are you going to do DBD for Jaco the Galactic Patrol Man?
Are gonna do DBD for Dragon Ball Super?
Also, great video man!!!
„And will never be seen again.“
And then came Super. Ha!
Though, it wasn‘t Toriyama‘s idea.
Glad you're doing okay after Irma
Thanks!
Just one thing: given how the High Elder died on Namek previously and left his body, but kept it when he died on Earth, that leads me to believe that the Kami of Earth just did granted it to him, since that’s his jurisdiction, and unlike when the High Elder first died, he was well informed of the situation on Namek by then.
Hey UA-cam recommended your newest video just got to here have to say other than top 3 being swiped around a bit I'd have to agree
9:12 So Vegeta changed to the padded armor when no one was looking again?
Are you gonna do the android arc?
So the Freeza Arc got #5 huh? That doesn't surprise me, the real question is what is going to get #1. Now I personally prefer the Android Arc to the Buu Arc, but having watched all of your videos, I've got a sneaking suspicion that the Android Arc may be your least favorite.
You made some valid criticisms here, some that I never really thought about, but I feel like you glossed over some of the really great thematic/character moments in the final moments of the Goku vs Freiza fight.
As a kid and even now, I was able to forgive the ridiculousness of frieza surviving being cut in half because of all the other things going on around it. The tense anxiety of the planet about to blow up, the apocalyptic setting, but especially the entire mercy scene.
After all the suffering he caused, frieza had the audacity to beg for Goku’s help. When Goku does spare some energy, Frieza IMMEDIATELY gloats about how despite winning the fight, Goku will die with the planet and he will escape. And when Goku turns his back, Frieza foolishly attacks him again. This truly is Frieza at his most desperate, pathetic and all round despicable; in this moment you can just feel how horrible of being he really is.
On the other hand, this whole namek ordeal has Goku pushed to the limit physically, emotionally, mentally...he had never been in a fight like this up to this point and. How often does Goku walk away from a fight with a boss villain in this kind of manner. I’m not talking about like the “I’m too weak but here’s my son” cell fight. Here, he was fully capable of ending Frieza but walked away from it twice because it wasn’t fun or thrilling anymore. Frieza was weaker and beneath him. That final look he gives says so much too.
The entire scene speaks volumes about both characters and I absolutely love the themes at play. I can’t believe you just gloss over it. Sure it was weighed down by some dumb stuff like the out of nowhere energy medicine, but it gave us such great moments in return. Your video was already pretty long, but you could’ve been a little more fair.
I appreciate your comment and your own perspective. I thought I at least touched on some of those elements you mentioned, but I'm afraid I don't have time at the moment to go back and watch the video to check. Perhaps they did get overshadowed, but part of me wants to say that's simply because the contrivances used to get to that point for me smother any deeper meanings Toriyama might have been trying to include.
I do definitely recall addressing the idea of Goku pushed to the brink here. Like I said, I just don't get that impression from this fight. The scenery does its best to outwardly portray a planet at the brink. But I feel Goku seems far more pushed to his limits against both of the Piccolos and Vegeta. This fight has never felt as impactful to me as those earlier examples. When Goku walks away from the fight, I neither feel he's a man pushed physically or emotionally to his limits. And of course, like I also recall saying in the video, none of that is helped by Goku's high level of inconsistency on display. Is he a warrior of rage? Driven by bloodlust? Determined to avenge his friend? Champing at the bit for a good fight? These all seem to come and go as the plot demands making it difficult to get a bead on Goku's motives at the end. It really just ends up feeling like a riff on the oft-used idea in fiction of a hero showing mercy only for the villain to abuse it, making it justifiable that the hero finishes the villain off.
The ideas all work well enough on a technical level, even if the execution is so illogical as to totally ruin it. But even discarding that, it never really impacted me all that much. I'm glad it does for you, though.
The 2nd part of dragon Ball has not aged well. Its going to get much worse from here on out.
Zz Batson You mean the saga where Krillin tien and yamcha surpass goku doing the same training he did for 3 and we qas stronger than them back then. Where all the villains have become brain dead because we all know nappa could have won if he wasn't stupid. Oh and all of the times goku lost and worked to increase his strength were retconned to biological orders.
The saiyan saga started many of dragon Ball's problems
Sif 90 you mean when he was wearing weighted clothing and you do know that drum was the ome that beat tien
Sif 90 nappa didn't kill anyone! Yamcha died because he let his guard down against a saibaman. Chiaozu blew himself up and tien kikohoed himself to death. The only person he killed was piccolo but that wasn't on purpose. He had the power, why didn't he use it?
And don't also surpassed piccolo and raditz, come to think of it, how did piccolo get that strong. Now I still love every part of dragon Ball but you have to admit toriyama did not plan thus out.
as much as I love freeza and namek I gotta admit...the show has started getting worse from how good it just was..its gonna become shit now that goku's arc is essentially over as a character...
"Paris is burning" reference? I wonder if you would review a RPDR "Dragon Ball" ball... Now I want a RPDR Japan
Finally someone gets it!
To be fair, in one of the panels you showed it does say that Porunga moved the Namekians and their dragon balls to a new planet. It doesn’t say anything about creating a new one, so by what the text says I can only assume they just wished to go to an uninhabited planet. 🤷🏻♂️
And now Freeza can shoot medicine out of his hands. That's gotta piss you off.
Oh yea Super used that too. Freeza had no business in that tournament. They just won't let him stay dead.
Honestly thought this would be ranked at 3, with cell at 5 and buu at one. But with the problems of the arc that you identify here, I'm actually not sure if the cell arc will take 3 or 1, given a lot of the problems of the Freeza arc are only amplified in the cell arc. I'm very interested to see those videos coming forward. Keep up the good work Lance! I am a huge Dragon Ball fan and a huge fan of this series.
And nobody fks with the white mage