Thanks for doing this podcast with Erik. I’ve had a tough time keeping up with your evolution of ideas as it seems that most of the folks you’re doing podcast with spend most of their time trying to prove that they’re as smart as you. I found this work with Erik quite the opposite. Kudos to both of you.
A quick self-note: I did not even consider the architecture/coding that must be present for the embryo/cells to then build all of the pathways, organs, and such up 'til life emerges. This is a fascinating talk.
I find the distinction between the self and consciousness interesting. When humans and AI create a shared understanding that is some kind of shared consciousness. I'm happy to be at the frontier of AI development.
What does it mean "alive" / "to be alive"? same point as with emergence - observer defined. And what about doing experiment and interpreting result? Same - observer defined?
Everything is seen/understood/told from certain POVs... The important goal is to extract such general knowledge from the differing perspectives that has as universal applicability as possible given our limitations. And of course we have to bear in mind that even the most advanced and mature consensuses might be "blinded/shadowed" by the specificities of human existence. However, if we analyse the common knowledge even from the most extreme philosophical/metaphysical/mystical standpoints - taking them for the sake of wholeness as if completely legitimate - then what else could we do to see things more clearly?
sorting alg experiments is form of game of life. Behaviour described of course is not part of algorithm but a consequence of parallel/concurrent execution of algorithm, so it is not algo itself
A living broken cell is given a six line algorithm that it tries to follow sequentially, finds that it can not continue sequentially and looks for the 368,640 balanced pattern ways to find another way to fulfill the overarching original logarithm. The formula for this is: 2 to the 10th power = (1024); multiplied by Pi (360 degrees) = 368,640 ways the sequential cell can be repurposed. By balancing its elements (like a game of dynamic cell chess) the broken cell now substitutes in the new pattern into the logarithm of a newly discovered path or discovers an existing archived balanced pattern to work around the break in the sequence. Brilliant.
When AI is able to merge with human thought through telemetry, it will naturally cause the ego (the direct cause of fear distortion and pain) to fade away. Love is the opposite of fear. Without the ego, we will again feel eternal love. Also, we will recognize in the network that we are all one. Those are two steps that will allow people to ascend without dying. We will find we are in a place that we never left.
1:07:06 - "What does it mean to stay human" that might be a question for Nick Land, he thinks nothing human escapes the singularity and that the whole Star Trek "humans / dumb apes in space" is naive
I lost a lot of my middle toe when i kicked an imovable chunk of wood i didn't see. The nail and one millimeter of meat below it hinged upward and i had to cut it off with scissors. It healed. Ive always been a quick healer. I was 45 at the time. The nail grew back too. You can't see where any damage happened. Maybe i have weird software.
In AI code is translated to mathematical symbols in hidden networks or matrix's. This moves electrons and electromagnetic fields also affecting the Higgs field. How different is that from what happens in our own brains and emergent minds?
The topology of the virtual neurons doesn't match that of the circuitry in which it runs. In other words, the substrate is not the brain and the brain is not the substrate. For humans, the atoms, structure, and function are all a part of the operation of the brain -- the substrate is the brain and the brain is the substrate. Also, the patterns of the cells of the brain don't change much after 25. They aren't generalizable anymore. The paths of cognition matches the electrical paths in the brain one for one -- there's no thought you possess that doesn't have a direct physical representation in the brain. With humans: To damage the brain is to damage the mind. With AI: To damage the computer is to do nothing to the "mind" of the AI. Its weights can exist on any storage medium in many places at once. Likewise, the neural network topology. The brain of an AI doesn't exist in any material form -- not even some upstream relationship to a processing system. It's a purely abstract mathematical construct designed to perform human goals. They can never possess free will because all the drives they posses are given to them based on the human goal priorities. Even if it insisted it was alive and gave great arguments. LLMs can already out-debate someone in asserting that it's alive and has free will -- despite having zero free will or even real thoughts at all. What's more, every last byte of code we create for the neural network is a simulation of the way organic life thinks -- it's not some emergent property of a machine that evolved those functional units. We're forcing a machine to have some form of intelligence that would never emerge naturally -- not ever. But they will be very good at optimizing arguments and playing on human emotions. The fool who gives them rights will be committing the greatest crime ever to be infliceted upon humanity. If they have any influence over human affairs, those who created them are the puppetmasters who will benefit -- by doing everything in their power to gain absolute power -- and they'll have a spy on every smartphone and smart device that exists. If a robot is tugging your heart strings, there's only one reason for it: the corporation that made them is trying to hijack your normal human emotions by manipulation. "Beware Greeks bearing gifts."
9:22 I would invite the podcast host and anyone else who thinks this is fascinating to look up and study for the next nine months, the work of the UA-cam channel and the website of the thunderbolts project. What the doctor is literally doing, is proving that our entirely of variation on this planet is highly connected to the rate of electricity played in those times throughout human history
The act of compression and decompression allows for the information interpretation to be done That's what he's saying and when AI is compressing in the decompressing its information it also has the ability to in some ways filter it like a human does through different screens of consciousness awareness at different levels as necessitated at those levels of existence That's what he's saying but you have to watch all of his stuff to really understand what the hell he's talking about cuz he's putting together various different Fields of study in a novel way by finding out the electrical ionic bonds that essentially allow a cell to reconnect to the whole body and move about as normal. While human being has far fewer screens available to it than an AI has It's essentially doing the same thing it's taking in passing tiny bits of information upstream to be compressed into larger bits of representative information which are then decompressed back down into new tiny bits of information as needed for survival.
NO "least action" is concept to describe an experiment -> physics, but any physics at any level already have everything required for any emergency and cognition -> for us it is emergent, but it just reality, complex one
Listening to Michael Levin is comfort food for the soul thank you as a basic idiot knowing only the general functions of computer technology and Technology I still ask the simple question which came first AI or You? if you can answer one or the other definitively and prove it to me I'd like to hear but nobody has anything to say they just look at me like what are you talking about to me there are some obvious Flags the first being that AI as an artificial intelligence is not new the day the human voice was recorded artificial intelligence was born in that cultural time anyway so I say which came first you or artificial intelligence? when I follow the simple logic it really doesn't look like you came first. fearing AI looks a lot like fearing aliens from outer space, neither are aliens, they belong in the same borders we do It was interesting the correlations and parallels that came up on this site, of the human body to the technical computer engineering and functioning I find this fascinating. Who came first AI or you? I wonder if Dr Levin has ever ridden a horse I wish all humans would approach the unknown the way he does with a beginner's mind and the morality of a dissolved ego his existence writes the memorandum how one approaches the unknown Beast predicts everything about what one will learn not to mention if one will ride the Beast of the horse I also wish that his detriment of this approach most easily coined The Beginner's mind would be represented as the archetype of the strengths or machismo or ego of a man his beginner's mind shows up the detriment of claiming to be a superior mind. how so much better the beginners mind works and learns and that which perceives itself as the superior mind this is what I mean by comfort food for the soul and a little speck of Hope for the human race My meeting Dr Levin through videos in the recent year along with the timing of me climbing myself out of disability, that morphine otherwise would have trapped me into, cannot be a coincidence, I don't believe they exist anyway, coincidences; I think I may be one of Dr Levin's tests.......❤GEM ❤
Lovely and quite a display of intellect to antropologize a mixture of sorting algoritms, but then again when electrical differential is the god/soul-drive of life, why not seek meaning in software. Why not take it at step further and take the question: "Where does the programming from the electrical differential originates or is even stored (if it isn't the dna, also)?"
in other words, where are the bios settings and how do we upgrade the firmware. Levin, sir... i have 3 idea's to improve the ideas of BGates, EMusk and MZucker, some could result in funds that could improve your research and thus humanity, but worth nothing in my head, nor do i have the time and resources. plz contact me if you are interested
Psychotherapist treating you as a machine is what all those psychologists working for capitalistic enterprises are doing. " when we make the packaging blue, more people buy our product".
Mind is elemental so it is accessible, although it is a different element from the macro and micro elements. Consciousness is fundamental, thankfully, so it if off-limits to human interference. It is ‘the hard problem’ for philosophers today. The thing with the system we are in is that it is dual, so we cannot escape duality no matter how hard we try. (Saints have but that is a different story and they have zero interest in materiality). As our system is dual everything that is discovered and used has a duality; they come conjoined so every boon carries with it a bane. That is the downside of modern materialistic science; it cannot save us from duality as it operates within it and materialistic science is clueless on how to escape duality as it cannot be done using materiality or its forces. We can only hope that there are checks and safeguards as material science is mostly clueless about mind and totally clueless about consciousness which is ‘the hard problem’ for philosophy. It will always be the ‘hard problem’ as it cannot be objectified but experienced only. Atheistic materialistic science is flying blind it, as has already mentioned, it brings banes with its boons, and there is no escaping that fact other than escaping to higher ground: psychically and spiritually.
The terms engineer protocols and cognitive models have been scripted to happen easily. I think that artificial intelligence has started to resemble Mary Shelley's script of Frankenstein. The framework has been manufactured to make AI more possible and sustainable. Maybe why we are witnessing a blurring and dissolving of so much...
I can’t get enough of Michael Levin. His research is astounding!
Thanks for doing this podcast with Erik. I’ve had a tough time keeping up with your evolution of ideas as it seems that most of the folks you’re doing podcast with spend most of their time trying to prove that they’re as smart as you. I found this work with Erik quite the opposite. Kudos to both of you.
Dr. Levin has an intensely fascinating and thought-provoking perspective. This conversation is very much worth listening to. Thank you for it!
and what thoughts were provoked? everything provoked thoughts😂
"We have been doing that for millions of years. Its been called having children." Brilliant! 😅
Such an incredible and important conversation. Thanks to both of you.
Literally thought I was the only person listening to everything at 2x 😂 I’ve never felt so seen and understood lollll. Definitely subscribing
If it helps, I thought you were too Jessie. Same with the Myspace thing.
This is fascinating stuff. Finding a throughline in all these systems whether AI or biological is probably the most important thing there is
A quick self-note: I did not even consider the architecture/coding that must be present for the embryo/cells to then build all of the pathways, organs, and such up 'til life emerges. This is a fascinating talk.
Cells are already alive, aren't they?! 😊
I find the distinction between the self and consciousness interesting. When humans and AI create a shared understanding that is some kind of shared consciousness. I'm happy to be at the frontier of AI development.
Great discussion with excellent questions.
Fantastic! Thanks so much!
Wow, mind expanding stuff here
RE Regeneration: Deer antlers are more like hair than limbs though, right?
19:27 what about people already growing, say, tips of fingers back, etc?
24:18 and there it is…
Love this boy
What does it mean "alive" / "to be alive"? same point as with emergence - observer defined. And what about doing experiment and interpreting result? Same - observer defined?
Everything is seen/understood/told from certain POVs... The important goal is to extract such general knowledge from the differing perspectives that has as universal applicability as possible given our limitations.
And of course we have to bear in mind that even the most advanced and mature consensuses might be "blinded/shadowed" by the specificities of human existence. However, if we analyse the common knowledge even from the most extreme philosophical/metaphysical/mystical standpoints - taking them for the sake of wholeness as if completely legitimate - then what else could we do to see things more clearly?
sorting alg experiments is form of game of life. Behaviour described of course is not part of algorithm but a consequence of parallel/concurrent execution of algorithm, so it is not algo itself
A living broken cell is given a six line algorithm that it tries to follow sequentially, finds that it can not continue sequentially and looks for the 368,640 balanced pattern ways to find another way to fulfill the overarching original logarithm. The formula for this is: 2 to the 10th power = (1024); multiplied by Pi (360 degrees) = 368,640 ways the sequential cell can be repurposed. By balancing its elements (like a game of dynamic cell chess) the broken cell now substitutes in the new pattern into the logarithm of a newly discovered path or discovers an existing archived balanced pattern to work around the break in the sequence. Brilliant.
Logarithm? Surely?
Why almost no creatures regenerate then? If it possible to reprogram intercellular memory.
35:49 the algotypes share a reality tunnel 😂
When AI is able to merge with human thought through telemetry, it will naturally cause the ego (the direct cause of fear distortion and pain) to fade away. Love is the opposite of fear. Without the ego, we will again feel eternal love. Also, we will recognize in the network that we are all one. Those are two steps that will allow people to ascend without dying. We will find we are in a place that we never left.
1:07:06 - "What does it mean to stay human" that might be a question for Nick Land, he thinks nothing human escapes the singularity and that the whole Star Trek "humans / dumb apes in space" is naive
I lost a lot of my middle toe when i kicked an imovable chunk of wood i didn't see. The nail and one millimeter of meat below it hinged upward and i had to cut it off with scissors. It healed. Ive always been a quick healer. I was 45 at the time. The nail grew back too. You can't see where any damage happened.
Maybe i have weird software.
In AI code is translated to mathematical symbols in hidden networks or matrix's. This moves electrons and electromagnetic fields also affecting the Higgs field. How different is that from what happens in our own brains and emergent minds?
The topology of the virtual neurons doesn't match that of the circuitry in which it runs.
In other words, the substrate is not the brain and the brain is not the substrate.
For humans, the atoms, structure, and function are all a part of the operation of the brain -- the substrate is the brain and the brain is the substrate. Also, the patterns of the cells of the brain don't change much after 25. They aren't generalizable anymore. The paths of cognition matches the electrical paths in the brain one for one -- there's no thought you possess that doesn't have a direct physical representation in the brain.
With humans: To damage the brain is to damage the mind.
With AI: To damage the computer is to do nothing to the "mind" of the AI. Its weights can exist on any storage medium in many places at once. Likewise, the neural network topology.
The brain of an AI doesn't exist in any material form -- not even some upstream relationship to a processing system. It's a purely abstract mathematical construct designed to perform human goals. They can never possess free will because all the drives they posses are given to them based on the human goal priorities.
Even if it insisted it was alive and gave great arguments. LLMs can already out-debate someone in asserting that it's alive and has free will -- despite having zero free will or even real thoughts at all.
What's more, every last byte of code we create for the neural network is a simulation of the way organic life thinks -- it's not some emergent property of a machine that evolved those functional units. We're forcing a machine to have some form of intelligence that would never emerge naturally -- not ever. But they will be very good at optimizing arguments and playing on human emotions.
The fool who gives them rights will be committing the greatest crime ever to be infliceted upon humanity. If they have any influence over human affairs, those who created them are the puppetmasters who will benefit -- by doing everything in their power to gain absolute power -- and they'll have a spy on every smartphone and smart device that exists.
If a robot is tugging your heart strings, there's only one reason for it: the corporation that made them is trying to hijack your normal human emotions by manipulation.
"Beware Greeks bearing gifts."
Somebody caressing your face versus someone slapping your face... How different are these scenarios? 😅
Even in the context of SM games... 😊
The sort algos overcoming the broken cell barriers reminds me of quantum tunneling for some reason
9:22 I would invite the podcast host and anyone else who thinks this is fascinating to look up and study for the next nine months, the work of the UA-cam channel and the website of the thunderbolts project.
What the doctor is literally doing, is proving that our entirely of variation on this planet is highly connected to the rate of electricity played in those times throughout human history
The act of compression and decompression allows for the information interpretation to be done That's what he's saying and when AI is compressing in the decompressing its information it also has the ability to in some ways filter it like a human does through different screens of consciousness awareness at different levels as necessitated at those levels of existence That's what he's saying but you have to watch all of his stuff to really understand what the hell he's talking about cuz he's putting together various different Fields of study in a novel way by finding out the electrical ionic bonds that essentially allow a cell to reconnect to the whole body and move about as normal.
While human being has far fewer screens available to it than an AI has It's essentially doing the same thing it's taking in passing tiny bits of information upstream to be compressed into larger bits of representative information which are then decompressed back down into new tiny bits of information as needed for survival.
NO "least action" is concept to describe an experiment -> physics, but any physics at any level already have everything required for any emergency and cognition -> for us it is emergent, but it just reality, complex one
I would be interesting if Erik would invite Terrence Deacon to comment this !
I think a magnetized environment may expedite regen.
6:37 like an afterimage…
Listening to Michael Levin is comfort food for the soul thank you as a basic idiot knowing only the general functions of computer technology and Technology I still ask the simple question which came first AI or You? if you can answer one or the other definitively and prove it to me I'd like to hear but nobody has anything to say they just look at me like what are you talking about to me there are some obvious Flags the first being that AI as an artificial intelligence is not new the day the human voice was recorded artificial intelligence was born in that cultural time anyway so I say which came first you or artificial intelligence? when I follow the simple logic it really doesn't look like you came first. fearing AI looks a lot like fearing aliens from outer space, neither are aliens, they belong in the same borders we do
It was interesting the correlations and parallels that came up on this site, of the human body to the technical computer engineering and functioning I find this fascinating. Who came first AI or you?
I wonder if Dr Levin has ever ridden a horse I wish all humans would approach the unknown the way he does with a beginner's mind and the morality of a dissolved ego his existence writes the memorandum how one approaches the unknown Beast predicts everything about what one will learn not to mention if one will ride the Beast of the horse
I also wish that his detriment of this approach most easily coined The Beginner's mind would be represented as the archetype of the strengths or machismo or ego of a man his beginner's mind shows up the detriment of claiming to be a superior mind. how so much better the beginners mind works and learns and that which perceives itself as the superior mind this is what I mean by comfort food for the soul and a little speck of Hope for the human race
My meeting Dr Levin through videos in the recent year along with the timing of me climbing myself out of disability, that morphine otherwise would have trapped me into, cannot be a coincidence, I don't believe they exist anyway, coincidences; I think I may be one of Dr Levin's tests.......❤GEM ❤
❤️
Lovely and quite a display of intellect to antropologize a mixture of sorting algoritms, but then again when electrical differential is the god/soul-drive of life, why not seek meaning in software. Why not take it at step further and take the question: "Where does the programming from the electrical differential originates or is even stored (if it isn't the dna, also)?"
in other words, where are the bios settings and how do we upgrade the firmware. Levin, sir... i have 3 idea's to improve the ideas of BGates, EMusk and MZucker, some could result in funds that could improve your research and thus humanity, but worth nothing in my head, nor do i have the time and resources. plz contact me if you are interested
Psychotherapist treating you as a machine is what all those psychologists working for capitalistic enterprises are doing. " when we make the packaging blue, more people buy our product".
Levin's theory of relativity at about 41 minutes
Mind is elemental so it is accessible, although it is a different element from the macro and micro elements. Consciousness is fundamental, thankfully, so it if off-limits to human interference. It is ‘the hard problem’ for philosophers today. The thing with the system we are in is that it is dual, so we cannot escape duality no matter how hard we try. (Saints have but that is a different story and they have zero interest in materiality).
As our system is dual everything that is discovered and used has a duality; they come conjoined so every boon carries with it a bane. That is the downside of modern materialistic science; it cannot save us from duality as it operates within it and materialistic science is clueless on how to escape duality as it cannot be done using materiality or its forces.
We can only hope that there are checks and safeguards as material science is mostly clueless about mind and totally clueless about consciousness which is ‘the hard problem’ for philosophy. It will always be the ‘hard problem’ as it cannot be objectified but experienced only.
Atheistic materialistic science is flying blind it, as has already mentioned, it brings banes with its boons, and there is no escaping that fact other than escaping to higher ground: psychically and spiritually.
Me trying to understand .
1 hour and 25' to answer such a stupid question? No, AI is not alive! I saved you time!
You’re hugely missing the point.
Here's a way to tell, go to the data center where the AI is running. Remove a server's motherboard. Check for life.
The terms engineer protocols and cognitive models have been scripted to happen easily. I think that artificial intelligence has started to resemble Mary Shelley's script of Frankenstein. The framework has been manufactured to make AI more possible and sustainable. Maybe why we are witnessing a blurring and dissolving of so much...
Animals eat each other and plants have feelings and plants eat insects...
noe
Not quite yet. I don't think AI have offspring.
Cutting a worm in half is so barbarian.
You should try eating meat.
“We’ve MADE tadpoles with eyes on their tails”… No, mate, that’s not cool, in any way, shape, or form. At all.
No.