Even though it is quite expensive for an ordinary C64 fan, I am very delighted to see such products entering the market. Actually, it is unbelievable a computer 40 years old still get upgrades 😄 Thanks for the review Jan, so far the best review I have watched.
Me, too. Although, I bought a custom remake motherboard of the original A4000D from a well known guy in Denmark who specialises in these boards, but it cost a king's ransom and still had mostly the original chips from Commodore. Nevertheless, it was a very professional remake (Chucky) and the components were soldered perfectly. If you've got the cash, almost anything is possible.
@@milk-it Minor quibble, Chucky (John Hertell) is Swedish. But his remakes are amazing feats of reverse engineering and knowledge. The A2000 board was a five layer board.
I get the appeal of the EVO64, as it seems like a decent replacement C64 board. However I struggle to see the point of the pre-amp options (especially the Triode64). Maybe that says more about me than the target market. Either way, it's great to see people are still pushing the C64's architecture to new limits over 40 years since it was released.
Did you actually look into any of the module or component prices before commenting? Curious to know what you think it should cost for a brand new C64 design that incorporates ClearVideo64, MixSID Stereo, RePROM64, MOS8701 replacement, SRAM upgrades, a Nutube VFD and other audio grade components?
This is much better review of the EVO64 then the 8bitGuy, the sound was brilliant you could hear the different very quickly almost like CD quality. Great stuff.
The 8bitGuy hasn’t put up a quality video in years, all his videos are short, include little information or steps and most topics are boring. He used to be a youtube pro, now just a youtube bore. david Murry made his money on his super niche software projects, so now he spends his time in his computer shed cleaning his gu n e s.
Thanks! Yup, the different SIDs all sound great in their own right. I particularly like the muffled and flawed qualities of the 6581s but as you said, together they sound just awesome. :D
Together they have such a fat sound. The subtle differences in envelope response time, filter cutoff slope, etc yield the same kind of slight differences between each side that many fancier synthesisers spend ages meticulously programming in.
17:49 Fortunately, unlike the 8bitguy, Jan didn't reverse the SID and VIC chips when installing them in their sockets on the EVO board. I did not expect anything else from Jan. (Neither did I expect anything else from the 8bitguy... 😂🤣)
The moment I cringed a bit was when he blamed his own mistake on the EVO creators. It is obvious which direction the ICs go into the board from the pictures in the documentation (even though it is not explicitly mentioned separately).
As for the Aries zif sockets it is a bit impractical that they don’t have a direction marker. On the other hand, it allows you do decide what end you want the lever in. I used them when I build my sixtyclone 250407, and theynallowed me to have all the caps on the topside, while replacing all large ICs with these zifs.
$1000 for a tube amp? It's a lovely project, but that is absolutely insane, I've got a little desktop tube amp (MC 84-C) with 6 tubes that costs less. Sorry, I don't want to be "that guy" but I think the pricing for this one is a bit aggressive. Cool project, but a little much for me.
They are using studio grade components on that tube board afaik, so it's not really comparable with a consumer grade product (which I assume your preamp board is). Effects rack tube preamps for recording studio applications are usually in a similar price range (and well above that). I think they are definitely marking up the price to make a bit of an income from all the work they put into this but I would guess it's not as hilarious as it seems. It IS super over the top connecting something like that to a humble C64 but I kind of love the insanity of it (although I would definitely not be able to pay 1000USD for it).
You can get quite similar results with a "simple" dual SID setup. The overtones that the NuTube adds are very subtle (albeit lovely, in my opinion). :)
You did a real justice to demonstrating the sound in the EVO64 board! I upgraded my pre-order to include not only the NuTube64, but the Triode64. I've still got my original C64 which works flawlessly, and the demonstration you provided here gives more depth of sound and clarity without distortion compared to the original. The rest of the deep dive into the configuration is much appreciated and sadly lacking from another UA-camr's video I recently watched. Danke Dir!
Milk-it, Send an email to Darrell and explain your position. I have some different ways to to the triode64 and I might need some extra ears for testing. Are you in USA ?
Yeay! Thanks for the mention. When I was contacted at the beginning of the EVO64 project, it was and still is a great honor for me that someone is taking inspiration from my design files :)
Bwack. While there is little or nothing left of your original project. I want to OPENLY thank you for bringing me back to the old EE hobby. I`m EE but I work as materials scientists developing materials for optics and electronics. Thank you BWACK, you rewinded my age of a couple of decades. Stefano.
You contributed so much to the scene over the years, it's just amazing. You actually deserve many more shout outs than you get, I guess. :D Thanks for all your work and especially for making it publicly available so others can use it and expand on it (like with the EVO)!!
Jan, this is an outstanding review, much more in-depth than another one made by someone who shall remain nameless! I have never owned a C64, but enjoy seeing content related to it, both repair videos and ones such as this, showcasing modern interpretations. I am not an audiophile, so am not qualified to comment on whether the $500 and $1000 add-ons are worth the money. Obviously you were impressed, and I give kudos to the creators for satisfying a niche market. I wish them success. I also look forward to your followup video where you create a synthesizer.
Thanks! I tried to do the EVO justice. As I said, I would probably not buy it if I hadn’t gotten the review unit myself. But I’m sure there are people who have enough cash and who can make good use of it! I ordered a MIDI cart in the meantime for the synthesizer project, hope to start with that soon. :)
That is SO cool! I'm really curious about the NuTube itself as it seems to be a miniaturised version of a real valve. But wow, the price, and I AM one of those crazy audiophile types...! However, I thought, I need a case for that. So I looked in my Commodore crate (parts, but I remembered I had a C64C and a C128 in there that I needed to look at). I thought that the C64C case might be nice to use. SO, I brought it down and decided to test it first. So, remembering what you said, measured the voltages first (which were fine) and powered on the machine after that. Fully expecting it not to work. But it did... And it kind of looks quite nice. Keyboard is perfect, perhaps a big discoloured. Still, open it I shall, so I flipped it over. Ah, made in West Germany. Wow, that brings me back memories of wanting to travel to Berlin when the wall fell, but okay. And for me, this is the very first C64 that I've seen in the past 10 years or so that hasn't been opened before (seal is in tact) and still works fine. Of course, I don't come across many, but I thought it was quite cool! So I'll have to go look for another case, and I'm going to make this my first restoration project. Cool! Will use your videos to see what to replace of course!
You could say that. It’s VFD "tubes" that are used to resemble a real tube/valve sound. Works pretty well in this case. The same technique is used in a plethora of outboard preamps and audio effects devices.
Good Lord, that's AMAZING. I'm a long time C64-Enthusiast - I 've caught the IT Virus on a C64 as a Child. So, I'm so going to get one. *gg* Besides, Qa'pla!
Its great folks are making these brand new mb, just keeps the c64 alive for the future. the tube pre amp is a tad overkill esp for 500 quid, but im sure it’ll find a niche buyer market. Would definitely be interested in an Amiga 1200 board. 😅
This is very cool. I am tempted but like you I already own too many C64s. My original breadbin and original C64c from back in the day still work. I have 2x ICS64S (which is one of my favorites) a Sixtyclone and a Reloaded Mk1. I am not sure what I would do with another one. haha. Great review and I think they will sell quite a few of these even if the price is premium.
This got me thinking about how dual SIDs work. I know the C64 memory map has the SID registers repeated 32 times, so I suppose when Commodore designed the machine they maybe thought that they could support as many SIDs as they could get on the board (up to 32), and maybe they weren't sure how many channels they would be able to design into the single SID chip, they might be able to "multi-core" the SID so-to-speak. But then the actual C64 only has the single SID chip select line supported, so you can't just slap in another SID without changing more of the chip select circuitry (U15 chip selects the SID when the appropriate address lines are being accessed?). I assume these new boards have designed in the multi SID support? and I also assume that it's possible to put more than 2 in, but I've never noticed anything about triple SIDs or quadruple SIDs?
It's probably not that they intended to put multiple SIDs in, but more that they just simplified the address decoding for a few chips (the same decoder also selects the colour RAM). Each of the devices (VIC included) is given a 1K block of memory to live in as a result of the colour RAM needing that much space. I guess they could have decoded further, but that would require more chips.
It will since there are still chips that has no modern replacements. And you get into the ship of Theseus if you use HW emulation for the sid and vic2. But then there are cycle perfect emulators, so maybe by that token it will never die.
48:37 "But you probably have something else to do" Trust, me. Anyone that watches your channel does NOT have anything else to do and could also listen to SID music all day long :D
@51:10 Me! :) Great video! The most thorough evaluation yet. This is the only reproduction board I've actually wanted to get my hands on. There is so much OG equipment out there, it's easy to put together a C64. This is truly unique. Take the most interesting thing about the Commodore 64 and turn up to 11. I'm just jealous of you UA-camrs getting to play with it before me. :)
Saw the 8-bit Guy's review of this board. The main board is excellent and is definitely worth considering for any C64 fan who wants to have a future-proof machine with modern components. The sound cards though - Ouch! I know it is impossible to make a valid comparison over UA-cam due to sampling, compression and reconstruction but seriously?! However you process it in the machine this is still 80's vintage 8-bit sound generation. You might as well connect your NAD amplifier to a gramophone! $500? 😲 $1000? 🤣
The available preamp modules are a niche offering for enthusiasts that want to experience them. They're not required for base functionality of the board. The cost for the modules is a reflection of the very high quality components, as well as the time and effort it takes to assemble, calibrate and test each module by hand (yes each is handmade). We're not expecting to sell tons of them, but we really wanted to have them for ourselves and to share them with others that might share a similar interest.
@@C64EVO I am sure that the cost of the boards reasonably reflects the time and expense required to develop and produce them and I applaud your achievement. My doubt is whether it was really necessary (or sensible) to spend this amount of time, money and energy developing and building modules to amplify 80's 8-bit sound in the first place! The 8-bit Guy's final verdict was that the VFD module produced little if any improvement over the basic board and certainly did not justify paying $500 for. I suspect that the same will apply doubly to the $1000 board. Producing it for yourselves is one thing and offering it for sale is the next step, but in a time of global financial crisis the prices do seem rather laughable.
Giving all due respect to David (The 8-Bit Guy), we love his contributions to the retro world, however he made it quite clear that he does not consider himself to be an effective judge of something as subjective and personal as audio quality. His attempt at a putting together a quantifiable set of measurements was quite limited. Comparing the waveforms actually has no meaningful relationship to the sound character, which needs to be experienced to be appreciated. I don't think David would disagree with anything I've said there. You'll notice that Jan is sharing a quite different subjective experience in this video, which we certainly did not ask him to do. Other than providing him with the board, we did not otherwise sponsor or attempt to influence his opinions in any way. Obviously we think it would be great if others choose to experience and enjoy the preamp modules in the same way that we do, but leaving them as a separate option makes this a personal decision for each hobbyist.
I laughed at the "I wish!" regarding the "& Team" - I think most people assume youtubers who produce great content like your channel have a production studio or many people behind the scenes. It takes years and years of working tirelessly usually entirely on your own to get to a point where a team is involved even after moderate success on this platform.
Yeah, I guess there's quite a few people assuming the UA-camrs have a team to work on the videos. I don't know any UA-camrs from the retro realm that have a team really. Some have a family member helping out but these channels are single person endeavors for the most part (even the ones that are orders of magnitudes bigger than mine). And it's definitely a lot of work to tackle at my humble "level" already. :D
That thing is a dream machine. I actually bought similar low pro zif sockets for OG 64 project but after looking at how good this NEW board looks I kinda don’t want to waste them on the old green PCB. 🤔
Die Idee des EVO Board ist so etwa wie die, als ob man an einen alten Opel Kadett einen Satz an modernen Ferrari Teilen montieren plus einigen Extra Gimmicks schrauben würde. Sicherlich irgendwie originell, aber irgendwie....
Looks very nice! You obviously figured out what way the VIC-II was supposed to go :) Wonder why they did not replace the color ram (2114) with something newer? Looking forward to the recapping video in 2063 :)
This is a great project that I have been following for some time. Every extra feature that is put in the board is a great choice, it contains most of the essential fixes / enhancements that were implemented to old C64 in time. I only have 2 criticisms; first being the price. I understand the effort and time that went into the project, and I am aware of the parts quality used. I also understand that considering the expected sales number, they had to make it a bit pricey to cover everything, but still, not an easy money to pay from a hobbyist's perspective. Second is the decision to embed a modern PLA replacement on board. No one, even the creator can guarantee 100% compatibility for a modern replacement. There should have been another ZIF socket for the PLA and the choice of placing an original PLA or any of the modern replacements in that socket should have been left to the end user. Other than these two, I think it is the best modern C64 board ever created so far, and I don't expect that there will ever be something better.
Bora. The QAPLA was moved off board with a small square socket to allow me to change CHIP, to add funcitonalities (in the EEPROM) and to be able to play with more possible waiting states in production SRAMs. Compatibility is always goal. I promise you that when your QAPLA dies, you will have a replacement, ready to take its job.
I think the Evo64 is a great project because it does answer the question about what the Commodore 64 would have been like if higher quality components were used in its manufacturing. I love that it further extends the life of the 1980s platform. I wonder what the next steps are... as in, where do we go from here? This almost demands that the platform get extended further. Some kind of expectation for Dual SID and with the new VIC replacement that also extends the C64s capabilities, I would like to see some sort of... not quite next gen C64 but something that we can all enjoy, no matter the vintage of Commodore 64... Perhaps I am babbling...
A friend of mine also recorded this cover of mine with a dual SID Setup, this is ua-cam.com/video/Vs9yEVEPUvU/v-deo.html great when you need more than 3 voices.
I have a brother-in-law that is a musician. The cost might stop me, but I am kinda curious if he would enjoy receiving one of these as a gift. I'm curious what music making software exists that would take advantage of the fancy dual sid hardware.
They did fix a few layout issues and minor HW bugs. What Jan has is pretty close to the final version. But I think the whole project is an exercise in futility. The stated goal of reproducing the C64 with tube amps and fine-tuned video circuitry is a masturbatory exercise. The video and audio will never look/sound as good as we remember it, because memories are unreliable and change every time they are accessed, so no modern day reproduction can compete with nostalgia. And making an "audiophile" C64 is just laughable, on so many levels. But people are free to spend their money on this finely crafted wank.
I did feel the sound on the EVO64 lacked distortion and had a depth, which were missing from the original C64 that I fired up just after watching this video. I'm parting with my cash for the EVO64, mainly because I want to support the rebuilders and keep such projects alive.
@@milk-it Go for it. I in no way intended for anyone to not buy it, if they feel it is worth it. Just that some of the distortion was what I appreciated, and that the concept of an audiophile C64 is deeply silly, again to me. Tastes will always differ.
@@OscarSommerbo I don't disagree with the point about the concept of an audiophile C64 being silly, that does seem somewhat overblown for an 8-bit system! Nevertheless, I still think the huge effort made by the developer deserves a tick.
Yes, the 8580 has some flaws of the previous versions fixed. It's generally a lot cleaner sounding than the 6581. Both have their pros and cons I think. A matter of taste. The SID was superior to pretty much everything else at the time I think, mostly due to the fact that it was designed by Bob Yannes who was a synthesizer designer really and had not designed any ICs before. So it was a kind of a happy accident that he started designing something more ambitious than usual because he lacked the knowledge about the restrictions (afaik he originally planned to design the SID with a lot more voices and filters but had to downsize it to 3 channels in the end). :)
I have a mint looking c64 and floppy drive. The caps need replacing but I can tell I'm the first person in it. I have the original manual too. I don't want it. All I want is around 50 bucks to pack it while the person pays shipping. I have no where to put it
Yes - you can use a jumper or dip switch to enable the second SID to listen on $DE00. Separately, you can also enable $DF00. The default addresses that reach the second SID are $D420 and $D500.
Ich bin mal auf der Suche nach einem Hardwareentwickler. Ich habe ein Selbstbau-Projekt in Planung, daß im Gegensatz zu dem Ding hier echte neue Funktionen mitbringt und zudem kaum etwas kostet.
As a musician I don't think I am the target audience for the amp, we use studio reference monitors over consumer speakers to hear every bit of articulation and detail, so if you are using a 64 to natively write music on or as an instrument like you mentioned you want the most accurate reference point, a 64 plugged into reference monitors. The tube amp is removing some of the clarity and ability to hear the detail in how extremely fast the sid chips parameters change. If I did specifically want this tube sound afterwards there is a plethora of options including nutube pedals and preamps from Korg or something like an Elektron analogue heat which is going to give you a tonne of control and options that you can use on all your gear. It might make more sense for people who have no need to invest in studio gear but want a smoother more glued sound from their 64. That said it looks like a great board and the amps are totally optional, so win win for everyone.
Good point! I was thinking that it would make sense in a live setup for musicians or as a standalone synth in a recording setup (which is probably what I’m going to use it for primarily). Definitely not for everybody but I don’t think that’s the intention of the project. ;)
Much better than 8 Bit Guy's _(or as I prefer to call the gun loving Texan foolhardy man who knows nothing of anti-static wriststraps, "Howdy Arabia")_ brief 20 minute video that spent too much time advertising his own rubbishy game.
The SID is solid state. It has digital and analog solid state circuitry, and because it's MOS, low quality, with the fidelity of a good AM radio. Tacking an outrageously expensive tube amplifier at the end of the solid state audio chain is ridiculously stupid. Tubes cannot improve the sound. You're better off using a TL082 JFET Op-Amp (used in very high quality audio designs). That chip and surrounding circuitry would cost about $15 US. A bit of truth here though... Tubes (valves) introduce distortion that audiophiles consider quite pleasing. This is due to their very high impedance nature. They favor mid-range frequencies and thus makes it seem vocals jump out. Due to their high impedance nature, low frequency response can suffer without an extremely robust tube and power supply. Many tube designs can also emit hum, although here there is likely a switching inverter to achieve the needed high voltage minimizing that. Clipping distortion in tubes is spongy as they are not high-ampere devices. The power supply will sag when the audio "punches" or has instant high output bursts, although the sag occurs throughout the output range. Put a scope on a tube amp power supply and watch it sag at normal volume and high volume. This tends to cause "warm" sound. It's just distortion, but gentle. Solid state devices are typically low impedance, and their circuits are relatively low voltage but much higher amperage than a tube design. Solid state will typically reach essentially a brick wall when their power supply is taxed. This makes clipping quite harsh. However, a good solid state design (with FET and JFET designs) will be able to reproduce a frequency response flat across the audio spectrum, and distortion values barely measurable. Really good valve amplifiers will typically be %2 - %0.1 distortion and solid state can be as low as %0.001. This is all an over-priced gimmick like Monster Cable speaker wire. It's your money... whatever.
That's an opinion I guess. Coming from an audio engineering background myself, I know that tube preamps can make all the difference. The harmonic distortion they add has a positive effect on the perceived sound for many people, no matter what the original sound source is. I used (real) tube preamps for a lot of vocal recordings and on many other tracks in the studio, sometimes even running whole mixes through tubes to make them blend together better. A very common thing to do these days in professional audio work is to use tube preamps in conjunction with a digital recording environment to make things sound more "natural". It's definitely not audiophile snake oil as you frame it. On the other hand, some speaker wires are. Also, the way you talk about the quality of the SID's output is bordering on blasphemy. ;P In the end, as with all things regarding audio, it's a matter of taste.
@@JanBeta Like I said "distortion that sounds pleasing". I know it sounds counter-productive, but to the human ear, the distortion tubes introduce sound pleasing, "warm", "open" etc are used as good descriptions of this phenomenon. If I am doing a voice-over, I want to sound "radio talk show", I would use tube pre-amplifiers to give the '50s AM radio warm sound for my voice. Ever notice how the "tube sound" can be pronounced on older recordings and most especially radio broadcasts? Tube has a specific purpose, although due to their rarity today, quite expensive. You can simulate the "tube sound" without a tube. Use FETs, JFETs and make their power supplies spongy (resistor / capacitor / resistor). Keep the entire circuit high impedance throughout the chain with a relatively high voltage and low amperage supply. You can use metal film resistors in series with the stages to help maintain the "weak" amperage of the signal itself as well. Keep it strictly a voltage amplifier (like a tube). I'd be willing to bet you could fool a tube fanatic with a simulated FET and JFET audio voltage amplifier with a spongy power supply. It would be "blasphemy", but highly possible. My peeve here is to tack on a ridiculously expensive gimmick on an already poor quality signal generated by a cheap MOS SID. SIDs fail because their low quality bi-polar transistors suck. This is Commodore we are talking about here, the kings of cheap. SID was a technological marvel, cheaply made, in the 1980s, and using cheap quality silicon.
What about the microphonics! I guess everything a valve amp can do a DSP and lookup table could do but it's probably more direct to use valves instead of all the extra mathematical and software engineering that would have to be done to emulate valve characteristics.
The SID is not a sound reproduction device that needs to reproduce sound as accurately as possible. Its job is to generate pleasing sounds. Therefore adding pleasing sounding distortions is IMO a good thing. Still, I think tubes are a bit overhyped: They may sound more pleasing when overdriven, but under normal drive, they don't do amplification better than a transistor. The sound fragments sound like perfectly normal SID sound to me, not better, not worse.
Those DIP switches are removable. They sit on top of standard headers so that an auto-switching module like the Keyman64 can be added to control ROM changes if that’s desired
I would guess it does that because of the slight phase variations between the different SID models. The early implementations of surround sound were using phase-shifting to get the additional channels. Not quite sure if that is still used for the modern digital Dolby surround stuff but it probably still is implemented in most surround devices. :D
to hear the beste difference between the original and the nutube version, you should make another video with only one SID because you use a different SID chip on every channel, i can't really compare the difference...!
Oh, I think the way it works is that it's just "listening" to the standard addresses that the regular "physical" dual SID mods usually use. The FPGA allows for two SIDs to be emulated at once. The ARMSID is able to do the same. It's just a matter of running an extra connection to the output jack to get the stereo effect. :)
Sure a project from die-hard C64 fans with the idea of bringing almost every modern mods and tweaks in that you can have. However, the C64 has turned 40 last year and I think that it is sure worth trying such a project from a creative point of view, but personally, I wouldn´t want it. I am doing fine with my box standard system with new caps and the "usual" stuff from back in the day....BTW: there is a Pioneer multimedia system "SPH-EVO64DAB - Car Entertainment Multimedia Receiver" available...sure doesn´t have anything in common with this piece of hardware...
I sold my C64 to finance an Amiga 500. The Amiga was fantastic and helped me to move forward in computing, but I never felt the sense of wonder, excitement and discovery that went with the 64. I never thought that I would see the day when we actually had a choice of new implementations to choose from! Happy days again.
Yes, it fits both. Although there seems to be a slight positioning issue with the audio jack on the preamp board if you put it in a C64C case (the connector doesn't quite line up with the cutout in the case but you can work around that by using slightly smaller standoffs for the preamp board). Breadbin case fits 100% fine.
In the 8-Bit Guy's video, he had to change the stand-offs and physically re-drill one of the screw holes in the board because it was the wrong size. For such an expensive product, they didn't seem to do a lot of testing.
yes perfectly on the C64. Jack audio: no problem. The production version of the nutube64 has pads for the jack ABOVE and BELOW the board so you can put the plug wherever you want.
You really need to build one of them ATX64 boards that are developed by a German. It is like a Sixtyclone, but taken in a completely different direction.
I actually have the C64 tower board from the creator of that one here but didn't get around building that yet! The ATX64 is something I'm super interested in, too. I think I'm going to get one of those sometime!
@@JanBeta We are not that many who own a fully build one. Personally I am figuring out how to create a case from scratch for my ATX64.... But you should really do it. Build yours. It is a wierd an unique machine. If you do it, then perhaps mod the ROM's to fitt your build, like I did with the info screen at the top, when powering on.
I like those kinds of project, but I also wonder with all the replacement parts that aren’t really made like the originals, do we just move closer and closer to distributing something really similar to an FPGA implementation, but distributed across a traditional board?
We have made quite a bit of effort to remain as faithful to the original system architecture as we thought made sense, given what's possible to have produced today, in small batches.
@@C64EVO No doubt about that and I’m not criticizing your efforts, in fact I appreciate them a lot! I just wonder about the differences to FPGA implementations, especially because they also keep on getting better 😊
In addition to replacing all of the original ceramic disk capacitors, there are also quite a few caps being used in the audio signal path, to provide smoothing consistency.
Tom, I`m proud of it, and I still think I did not go all way I should have. When you put the ultra-low-noise 5V step-down there is ABSOLUTELY no hum in the speakers. And the new ultra-low-noise 24-36 step up - which I use to drive - and overdrive - the nutubes is even better.
I'm sure you want to hear Jan's response to that question, but I can add that the mounting solution that has been implemented for EVO does already include vibration dampening, which should resist microphonics under basic movement conditions, like using the keyboard. It would take a more abrupt and deliberate type of system jostling to cause any discernible microphonic noise to enter the signal.
1) no if you type on the C64 2) no if you tap the board 3) yes if you tap the nutube. The device is NOT mounted flush with the board but elevated of 2-3 mm, to reduce vibration. As the guy below says, it is possible to put a foamy support and a flex connector
Even though it is quite expensive for an ordinary C64 fan, I am very delighted to see such products entering the market. Actually, it is unbelievable a computer 40 years old still get upgrades 😄
Thanks for the review Jan, so far the best review I have watched.
If someone makes an equivalent Amiga board I'm there
there are... but you must put your's components... :D
Bob’s Bits Tindie.
Me, too. Although, I bought a custom remake motherboard of the original A4000D from a well known guy in Denmark who specialises in these boards, but it cost a king's ransom and still had mostly the original chips from Commodore. Nevertheless, it was a very professional remake (Chucky) and the components were soldered perfectly. If you've got the cash, almost anything is possible.
@@milk-it Minor quibble, Chucky (John Hertell) is Swedish. But his remakes are amazing feats of reverse engineering and knowledge. The A2000 board was a five layer board.
@@OscarSommerbo True.
I get the appeal of the EVO64, as it seems like a decent replacement C64 board. However I struggle to see the point of the pre-amp options (especially the Triode64). Maybe that says more about me than the target market. Either way, it's great to see people are still pushing the C64's architecture to new limits over 40 years since it was released.
Over the Top are the Prices too ^^
Did you actually look into any of the module or component prices before commenting? Curious to know what you think it should cost for a brand new C64 design that incorporates ClearVideo64, MixSID Stereo, RePROM64, MOS8701 replacement, SRAM upgrades, a Nutube VFD and other audio grade components?
Vic II and the Sid Chips would make a great band name
SID VICious !!!
@@techdatamexico4530 darn, I was going to say that.
This is much better review of the EVO64 then the 8bitGuy, the sound was brilliant you could hear the different very quickly almost like CD quality. Great stuff.
Agreed, Jan does amazing deep dives.
The 8bitGuy hasn’t put up a quality video in years, all his videos are short, include little information or steps and most topics are boring. He used to be a youtube pro, now just a youtube bore. david Murry made his money on his super niche software projects, so now he spends his time in his computer shed cleaning his gu n e s.
I cannot say which SID is ultimately better, but I’m amazed at how great they sound together. Great video as well.
Thanks! Yup, the different SIDs all sound great in their own right. I particularly like the muffled and flawed qualities of the 6581s but as you said, together they sound just awesome. :D
I would really like for them to incorporate this into VICE.
Together they have such a fat sound. The subtle differences in envelope response time, filter cutoff slope, etc yield the same kind of slight differences between each side that many fancier synthesisers spend ages meticulously programming in.
I was not expecting the sound to be that different in stereo, wow!
17:49 Fortunately, unlike the 8bitguy, Jan didn't reverse the SID and VIC chips when installing them in their sockets on the EVO board. I did not expect anything else from Jan. (Neither did I expect anything else from the 8bitguy... 😂🤣)
The moment I cringed a bit was when he blamed his own mistake on the EVO creators. It is obvious which direction the ICs go into the board from the pictures in the documentation (even though it is not explicitly mentioned separately).
I was watching and noticed, that too! Die Deutschen sind sehr aufmerksam ;-).
@@JanBeta Ganz genau. Er hätte besser aufgepasst sollen.
Unsubscribed and i am not watching 8bitguy videos for quite a time, so it proved again my decision was correct! 😂
As for the Aries zif sockets it is a bit impractical that they don’t have a direction marker. On the other hand, it allows you do decide what end you want the lever in. I used them when I build my sixtyclone 250407, and theynallowed me to have all the caps on the topside, while replacing all large ICs with these zifs.
Oh my G! NuTube sounds so awesome! Thanks for this video Jan.
The only incompatibilty of the EVO64 that I know of is the one between my wallet and how much these boards sell for.
$1000 for a tube amp? It's a lovely project, but that is absolutely insane, I've got a little desktop tube amp (MC 84-C) with 6 tubes that costs less. Sorry, I don't want to be "that guy" but I think the pricing for this one is a bit aggressive. Cool project, but a little much for me.
They are using studio grade components on that tube board afaik, so it's not really comparable with a consumer grade product (which I assume your preamp board is). Effects rack tube preamps for recording studio applications are usually in a similar price range (and well above that). I think they are definitely marking up the price to make a bit of an income from all the work they put into this but I would guess it's not as hilarious as it seems. It IS super over the top connecting something like that to a humble C64 but I kind of love the insanity of it (although I would definitely not be able to pay 1000USD for it).
@@JanBetaaudio foolery, snake oil salesmen.
@@JanBeta studio grade components without proper shielding next to video generation circuitry ;-)
First time i heard nutube,
its INSANE!!
I wish i had one :(
I would spent countless hours watching and listening to demos
You can get quite similar results with a "simple" dual SID setup. The overtones that the NuTube adds are very subtle (albeit lovely, in my opinion). :)
You did a real justice to demonstrating the sound in the EVO64 board! I upgraded my pre-order to include not only the NuTube64, but the Triode64. I've still got my original C64 which works flawlessly, and the demonstration you provided here gives more depth of sound and clarity without distortion compared to the original. The rest of the deep dive into the configuration is much appreciated and sadly lacking from another UA-camr's video I recently watched. Danke Dir!
Milk-it, Send an email to Darrell and explain your position. I have some different ways to to the triode64 and I might need some extra ears for testing. Are you in USA ?
Wow! The two different SIDs in stereo is amazing!
Also, great video to start the weekend with. Enjoying with a large mug of coffee. Thanks as always Jan!
Yeay! Thanks for the mention. When I was contacted at the beginning of the EVO64 project, it was and still is a great honor for me that someone is taking inspiration from my design files :)
You have inspired MANY of us and will continue to do so for years and years to come!
Bwack. While there is little or nothing left of your original project. I want to OPENLY thank you for bringing me back to the old EE hobby. I`m EE but I work as materials scientists developing materials for optics and electronics. Thank you BWACK, you rewinded my age of a couple of decades. Stefano.
You contributed so much to the scene over the years, it's just amazing. You actually deserve many more shout outs than you get, I guess. :D Thanks for all your work and especially for making it publicly available so others can use it and expand on it (like with the EVO)!!
Jan, this is an outstanding review, much more in-depth than another one made by someone who shall remain nameless! I have never owned a C64, but enjoy seeing content related to it, both repair videos and ones such as this, showcasing modern interpretations. I am not an audiophile, so am not qualified to comment on whether the $500 and $1000 add-ons are worth the money. Obviously you were impressed, and I give kudos to the creators for satisfying a niche market. I wish them success. I also look forward to your followup video where you create a synthesizer.
Thanks! I tried to do the EVO justice. As I said, I would probably not buy it if I hadn’t gotten the review unit myself. But I’m sure there are people who have enough cash and who can make good use of it! I ordered a MIDI cart in the meantime for the synthesizer project, hope to start with that soon. :)
That is SO cool! I'm really curious about the NuTube itself as it seems to be a miniaturised version of a real valve. But wow, the price, and I AM one of those crazy audiophile types...!
However, I thought, I need a case for that. So I looked in my Commodore crate (parts, but I remembered I had a C64C and a C128 in there that I needed to look at). I thought that the C64C case might be nice to use.
SO, I brought it down and decided to test it first. So, remembering what you said, measured the voltages first (which were fine) and powered on the machine after that. Fully expecting it not to work. But it did... And it kind of looks quite nice. Keyboard is perfect, perhaps a big discoloured.
Still, open it I shall, so I flipped it over. Ah, made in West Germany. Wow, that brings me back memories of wanting to travel to Berlin when the wall fell, but okay.
And for me, this is the very first C64 that I've seen in the past 10 years or so that hasn't been opened before (seal is in tact) and still works fine.
Of course, I don't come across many, but I thought it was quite cool!
So I'll have to go look for another case, and I'm going to make this my first restoration project. Cool! Will use your videos to see what to replace of course!
it is NOT a mere "lovely" system...it is a majesticly wonderfull system!!! I love ittttt!
That is a very kind thing to say. Thank you
The best video on EVO64 on the Internet hands down! Klasse gemacht!
The big "chip" with the glass window and the two glowing laghts is the real tubes.
You could say that. It’s VFD "tubes" that are used to resemble a real tube/valve sound. Works pretty well in this case. The same technique is used in a plethora of outboard preamps and audio effects devices.
A C64 mainboard for individualists. Nice that there is. C64 Alive. Thanks for the test 👍😎
What a thorough awesome review Jan!!! I really appreciate the comparison to reloaded.
Good Lord, that's AMAZING. I'm a long time C64-Enthusiast - I 've caught the IT Virus on a C64 as a Child. So, I'm so going to get one. *gg* Besides, Qa'pla!
QAPLA`
Its great folks are making these brand new mb, just keeps the c64 alive for the future. the tube pre amp is a tad overkill esp for 500 quid, but im sure it’ll find a niche buyer market. Would definitely be interested in an Amiga 1200 board. 😅
This is very cool. I am tempted but like you I already own too many C64s. My original breadbin and original C64c from back in the day still work. I have 2x ICS64S (which is one of my favorites) a Sixtyclone and a Reloaded Mk1. I am not sure what I would do with another one. haha. Great review and I think they will sell quite a few of these even if the price is premium.
This got me thinking about how dual SIDs work. I know the C64 memory map has the SID registers repeated 32 times, so I suppose when Commodore designed the machine they maybe thought that they could support as many SIDs as they could get on the board (up to 32), and maybe they weren't sure how many channels they would be able to design into the single SID chip, they might be able to "multi-core" the SID so-to-speak. But then the actual C64 only has the single SID chip select line supported, so you can't just slap in another SID without changing more of the chip select circuitry (U15 chip selects the SID when the appropriate address lines are being accessed?). I assume these new boards have designed in the multi SID support? and I also assume that it's possible to put more than 2 in, but I've never noticed anything about triple SIDs or quadruple SIDs?
The board is clearly supporting 2 physical SIDs, although if using an ARM2SID or FPGASID, it should be possible to support even more
It's probably not that they intended to put multiple SIDs in, but more that they just simplified the address decoding for a few chips (the same decoder also selects the colour RAM). Each of the devices (VIC included) is given a 1K block of memory to live in as a result of the colour RAM needing that much space.
I guess they could have decoded further, but that would require more chips.
Really enjoyed this Jan! Thank you for all the detail.
👍 👍 👍 Great video! Although I prefer the genuine retro computers...
I generally do, too. I kind of love the fact that there are new boards these days though. :D
@@JanBeta For sure, it's interesting to watch it!
Cool, C64 will never die 🥳
It will since there are still chips that has no modern replacements. And you get into the ship of Theseus if you use HW emulation for the sid and vic2. But then there are cycle perfect emulators, so maybe by that token it will never die.
Updated May 6th 2023: Latest testing video of the near production-ready Triode64 module
ua-cam.com/video/7wuVNfKDYXw/v-deo.html
48:37 "But you probably have something else to do"
Trust, me. Anyone that watches your channel does NOT have anything else to do and could also listen to SID music all day long :D
@51:10 Me! :) Great video! The most thorough evaluation yet. This is the only reproduction board I've actually wanted to get my hands on. There is so much OG equipment out there, it's easy to put together a C64. This is truly unique. Take the most interesting thing about the Commodore 64 and turn up to 11. I'm just jealous of you UA-camrs getting to play with it before me. :)
you do not need to wait that long. We already have some boards and nutube64 are coming as we speak
Saw the 8-bit Guy's review of this board. The main board is excellent and is definitely worth considering for any C64 fan who wants to have a future-proof machine with modern components. The sound cards though - Ouch! I know it is impossible to make a valid comparison over UA-cam due to sampling, compression and reconstruction but seriously?! However you process it in the machine this is still 80's vintage 8-bit sound generation. You might as well connect your NAD amplifier to a gramophone! $500? 😲 $1000? 🤣
The available preamp modules are a niche offering for enthusiasts that want to experience them. They're not required for base functionality of the board. The cost for the modules is a reflection of the very high quality components, as well as the time and effort it takes to assemble, calibrate and test each module by hand (yes each is handmade).
We're not expecting to sell tons of them, but we really wanted to have them for ourselves and to share them with others that might share a similar interest.
@@C64EVO I am sure that the cost of the boards reasonably reflects the time and expense required to develop and produce them and I applaud your achievement. My doubt is whether it was really necessary (or sensible) to spend this amount of time, money and energy developing and building modules to amplify 80's 8-bit sound in the first place! The 8-bit Guy's final verdict was that the VFD module produced little if any improvement over the basic board and certainly did not justify paying $500 for. I suspect that the same will apply doubly to the $1000 board. Producing it for yourselves is one thing and offering it for sale is the next step, but in a time of global financial crisis the prices do seem rather laughable.
Giving all due respect to David (The 8-Bit Guy), we love his contributions to the retro world, however he made it quite clear that he does not consider himself to be an effective judge of something as subjective and personal as audio quality.
His attempt at a putting together a quantifiable set of measurements was quite limited. Comparing the waveforms actually has no meaningful relationship to the sound character, which needs to be experienced to be appreciated. I don't think David would disagree with anything I've said there.
You'll notice that Jan is sharing a quite different subjective experience in this video, which we certainly did not ask him to do. Other than providing him with the board, we did not otherwise sponsor or attempt to influence his opinions in any way.
Obviously we think it would be great if others choose to experience and enjoy the preamp modules in the same way that we do, but leaving them as a separate option makes this a personal decision for each hobbyist.
I bought a Mega65 so that is toy enough for awhile, very expensive
I laughed at the "I wish!" regarding the "& Team" - I think most people assume youtubers who produce great content like your channel have a production studio or many people behind the scenes. It takes years and years of working tirelessly usually entirely on your own to get to a point where a team is involved even after moderate success on this platform.
Yeah, I guess there's quite a few people assuming the UA-camrs have a team to work on the videos. I don't know any UA-camrs from the retro realm that have a team really. Some have a family member helping out but these channels are single person endeavors for the most part (even the ones that are orders of magnitudes bigger than mine). And it's definitely a lot of work to tackle at my humble "level" already. :D
Thank you for going into so much detail about the audio. Very informative and sounds awesome!
another entertaining, fascinating and interesting and educational(!) vid - thanks so much
Jan that cut on your thumb looks bad. Make sure you cover it up so you will get no infections .Great vlog Jan
Oh, it's nearly healed now. It looked worse than it was, just a surface scratch really. :)
From Klingon Qapla' (“success”).
Indeed!
Hallo Jan,
ich freue mich über das neue Bord. Wo oder wie bekommt man die "Nullkraftsockel" sind sehr klein. Danke für eine antwort.
Weiter so
Die Sockel sind von Aries: www.arieselec.com/product/10018-low-profile-zif-test-socket/
That thing is a dream machine. I actually bought similar low pro zif sockets for OG 64 project but after looking at how good this NEW board looks I kinda don’t want to waste them on the old green PCB. 🤔
The ZIF sockets are nice indeed. I have to source some of those for future projects. :D
Die Idee des EVO Board ist so etwa wie die, als ob man an einen alten Opel Kadett einen Satz an modernen Ferrari Teilen montieren plus einigen Extra Gimmicks schrauben würde. Sicherlich irgendwie originell, aber irgendwie....
Nice one. For me my dream is an Posished Geos Type OS in the ROM.
Excellent review, Jan! Very detailed, now i can’t wait to get one of those boards! 😂
Thanks! I tried my best to look into every aspect. It’s an awesome new take on the glorious C64 indeed. :D
"I'm not going to bore you with sound examples". Please do, I love SID. 🎶
Looks very nice! You obviously figured out what way the VIC-II was supposed to go :) Wonder why they did not replace the color ram (2114) with something newer? Looking forward to the recapping video in 2063 :)
The color RAM may get the SMD treatment is a future board revision… After all, it is EVOlving…
Glad @JanBeta you got the board to test, I have a special idea and will send you a PM. I'm curious to see how this board behaves.
Not my vibe, but great review of a great product.
Eccellente motherboard,C64 al top!
This is a great project that I have been following for some time. Every extra feature that is put in the board is a great choice, it contains most of the essential fixes / enhancements that were implemented to old C64 in time. I only have 2 criticisms; first being the price. I understand the effort and time that went into the project, and I am aware of the parts quality used. I also understand that considering the expected sales number, they had to make it a bit pricey to cover everything, but still, not an easy money to pay from a hobbyist's perspective. Second is the decision to embed a modern PLA replacement on board. No one, even the creator can guarantee 100% compatibility for a modern replacement. There should have been another ZIF socket for the PLA and the choice of placing an original PLA or any of the modern replacements in that socket should have been left to the end user. Other than these two, I think it is the best modern C64 board ever created so far, and I don't expect that there will ever be something better.
The production board that will ship on Feb 15th has a modular and removable QAPLA’ (PLA).
Bora. The QAPLA was moved off board with a small square socket to allow me to change CHIP, to add funcitonalities (in the EEPROM) and to be able to play with more possible waiting states in production SRAMs. Compatibility is always goal. I promise you that when your QAPLA dies, you will have a replacement, ready to take its job.
@@auro1999 But still no provisions to use a genuine PLA?
You need to cover up that gash! Looks painful!
Looks worse than it is, it's just a surface scratch really (I tried to modify some furniture and slipped with the saw...). :D
@@JanBeta You'll have to reset the plant accident counter :-(
I think the Evo64 is a great project because it does answer the question about what the Commodore 64 would have been like if higher quality components were used in its manufacturing. I love that it further extends the life of the 1980s platform. I wonder what the next steps are... as in, where do we go from here? This almost demands that the platform get extended further. Some kind of expectation for Dual SID and with the new VIC replacement that also extends the C64s capabilities, I would like to see some sort of... not quite next gen C64 but something that we can all enjoy, no matter the vintage of Commodore 64... Perhaps I am babbling...
Higher quality? the many original c64's have survived 40+ years now. It's incredible for a computer designed to last 4-5 years.
Great video, Jan! As always!!
The dual Sid sounds really awesome.
Thank you!!
Thank you for this video, first time I have heard audio from a double sid setup.
A friend of mine also recorded this cover of mine with a dual SID Setup, this is ua-cam.com/video/Vs9yEVEPUvU/v-deo.html great when you need more than 3 voices.
First, I understood "the Evil 64 Team" 😆😜 But for sure, it's not!
They are not very evil as far as I can tell! :D
More C64 power!
I have a brother-in-law that is a musician. The cost might stop me, but I am kinda curious if he would enjoy receiving one of these as a gift. I'm curious what music making software exists that would take advantage of the fancy dual sid hardware.
I'd love to think that the 'QAPLA' label is a Star Trek Klingon reference! 'SUCCESS!'
Spot on! docs.google.com/document/d/1FS7WOKs4T5evn5urdY_PP3zLMoXYe2qxybZdXSJ7aDo/edit?usp=sharing
@@C64EVO Love it!
They did fix a few layout issues and minor HW bugs. What Jan has is pretty close to the final version. But I think the whole project is an exercise in futility. The stated goal of reproducing the C64 with tube amps and fine-tuned video circuitry is a masturbatory exercise. The video and audio will never look/sound as good as we remember it, because memories are unreliable and change every time they are accessed, so no modern day reproduction can compete with nostalgia. And making an "audiophile" C64 is just laughable, on so many levels. But people are free to spend their money on this finely crafted wank.
You don't need to buy it. ;) To each his own. ^^
You can get it without that x-ray generator tho
I did feel the sound on the EVO64 lacked distortion and had a depth, which were missing from the original C64 that I fired up just after watching this video. I'm parting with my cash for the EVO64, mainly because I want to support the rebuilders and keep such projects alive.
@@milk-it Go for it. I in no way intended for anyone to not buy it, if they feel it is worth it. Just that some of the distortion was what I appreciated, and that the concept of an audiophile C64 is deeply silly, again to me.
Tastes will always differ.
@@OscarSommerbo I don't disagree with the point about the concept of an audiophile C64 being silly, that does seem somewhat overblown for an 8-bit system! Nevertheless, I still think the huge effort made by the developer deserves a tick.
now some big fans, water cooling and RGB lights everywhere :)
Looks like this board is making the rounds
many rounds. There are 10 of them, all perfectly working.
Love my CPC's but yeah I have to admit that SID is superior over AY... 8580 seems produces nicer sound than 6581
Yes, the 8580 has some flaws of the previous versions fixed. It's generally a lot cleaner sounding than the 6581. Both have their pros and cons I think. A matter of taste. The SID was superior to pretty much everything else at the time I think, mostly due to the fact that it was designed by Bob Yannes who was a synthesizer designer really and had not designed any ICs before. So it was a kind of a happy accident that he started designing something more ambitious than usual because he lacked the knowledge about the restrictions (afaik he originally planned to design the SID with a lot more voices and filters but had to downsize it to 3 channels in the end). :)
@@JanBeta thanks, didn't know about this
| Awesome ! | :3
thanks
These boards seems to be making it around to the channels. I am very happy with my MK2 but the EVO64 looks cool.
What the hell? a dueling scar on your hand? you're not meant to duel with soldering irons!! 😂
Oh, it wasn't a soldering iron but a saw (and me being not cautious enough). Healed nearly completely in the meantime though! :D
@@JanBeta A saw? That seems to be somehow worse than a soldering iron tbh. "Jan's a lumberjack and he's ok..."
I have a mint looking c64 and floppy drive. The caps need replacing but I can tell I'm the first person in it. I have the original manual too. I don't want it. All I want is around 50 bucks to pack it while the person pays shipping. I have no where to put it
Cool. Only miss the green board. I think it would be much nicer if the board were the traditional green instead of this ugly black coat.
will that dual Sid use $DEOO address ?
Yes - you can use a jumper or dip switch to enable the second SID to listen on $DE00. Separately, you can also enable $DF00. The default addresses that reach the second SID are $D420 and $D500.
Ich bin mal auf der Suche nach einem Hardwareentwickler. Ich habe ein Selbstbau-Projekt in Planung, daß im Gegensatz zu dem Ding hier echte neue Funktionen mitbringt und zudem kaum etwas kostet.
As a musician I don't think I am the target audience for the amp, we use studio reference monitors over consumer speakers to hear every bit of articulation and detail, so if you are using a 64 to natively write music on or as an instrument like you mentioned you want the most accurate reference point, a 64 plugged into reference monitors. The tube amp is removing some of the clarity and ability to hear the detail in how extremely fast the sid chips parameters change. If I did specifically want this tube sound afterwards there is a plethora of options including nutube pedals and preamps from Korg or something like an Elektron analogue heat which is going to give you a tonne of control and options that you can use on all your gear. It might make more sense for people who have no need to invest in studio gear but want a smoother more glued sound from their 64.
That said it looks like a great board and the amps are totally optional, so win win for everyone.
Good point! I was thinking that it would make sense in a live setup for musicians or as a standalone synth in a recording setup (which is probably what I’m going to use it for primarily). Definitely not for everybody but I don’t think that’s the intention of the project. ;)
ZIF sockets are made by Aries Electronics.
This has been the best review so far.
Thanks! :)
Much better than 8 Bit Guy's _(or as I prefer to call the gun loving Texan foolhardy man who knows nothing of anti-static wriststraps, "Howdy Arabia")_ brief 20 minute video that spent too much time advertising his own rubbishy game.
Great video. Where did you get the C64 A/V adapter at 35:00? Are you happy with it?
The SID is solid state. It has digital and analog solid state circuitry, and because it's MOS, low quality, with the fidelity of a good AM radio. Tacking an outrageously expensive tube amplifier at the end of the solid state audio chain is ridiculously stupid. Tubes cannot improve the sound. You're better off using a TL082 JFET Op-Amp (used in very high quality audio designs). That chip and surrounding circuitry would cost about $15 US.
A bit of truth here though... Tubes (valves) introduce distortion that audiophiles consider quite pleasing. This is due to their very high impedance nature. They favor mid-range frequencies and thus makes it seem vocals jump out. Due to their high impedance nature, low frequency response can suffer without an extremely robust tube and power supply. Many tube designs can also emit hum, although here there is likely a switching inverter to achieve the needed high voltage minimizing that. Clipping distortion in tubes is spongy as they are not high-ampere devices. The power supply will sag when the audio "punches" or has instant high output bursts, although the sag occurs throughout the output range. Put a scope on a tube amp power supply and watch it sag at normal volume and high volume. This tends to cause "warm" sound. It's just distortion, but gentle.
Solid state devices are typically low impedance, and their circuits are relatively low voltage but much higher amperage than a tube design. Solid state will typically reach essentially a brick wall when their power supply is taxed. This makes clipping quite harsh. However, a good solid state design (with FET and JFET designs) will be able to reproduce a frequency response flat across the audio spectrum, and distortion values barely measurable. Really good valve amplifiers will typically be %2 - %0.1 distortion and solid state can be as low as %0.001.
This is all an over-priced gimmick like Monster Cable speaker wire. It's your money... whatever.
That's an opinion I guess. Coming from an audio engineering background myself, I know that tube preamps can make all the difference. The harmonic distortion they add has a positive effect on the perceived sound for many people, no matter what the original sound source is. I used (real) tube preamps for a lot of vocal recordings and on many other tracks in the studio, sometimes even running whole mixes through tubes to make them blend together better. A very common thing to do these days in professional audio work is to use tube preamps in conjunction with a digital recording environment to make things sound more "natural". It's definitely not audiophile snake oil as you frame it. On the other hand, some speaker wires are. Also, the way you talk about the quality of the SID's output is bordering on blasphemy. ;P In the end, as with all things regarding audio, it's a matter of taste.
Back in your box Rich
@@JanBeta Like I said "distortion that sounds pleasing". I know it sounds counter-productive, but to the human ear, the distortion tubes introduce sound pleasing, "warm", "open" etc are used as good descriptions of this phenomenon.
If I am doing a voice-over, I want to sound "radio talk show", I would use tube pre-amplifiers to give the '50s AM radio warm sound for my voice.
Ever notice how the "tube sound" can be pronounced on older recordings and most especially radio broadcasts? Tube has a specific purpose, although due to their rarity today, quite expensive.
You can simulate the "tube sound" without a tube. Use FETs, JFETs and make their power supplies spongy (resistor / capacitor / resistor). Keep the entire circuit high impedance throughout the chain with a relatively high voltage and low amperage supply. You can use metal film resistors in series with the stages to help maintain the "weak" amperage of the signal itself as well. Keep it strictly a voltage amplifier (like a tube).
I'd be willing to bet you could fool a tube fanatic with a simulated FET and JFET audio voltage amplifier with a spongy power supply. It would be "blasphemy", but highly possible.
My peeve here is to tack on a ridiculously expensive gimmick on an already poor quality signal generated by a cheap MOS SID. SIDs fail because their low quality bi-polar transistors suck. This is Commodore we are talking about here, the kings of cheap. SID was a technological marvel, cheaply made, in the 1980s, and using cheap quality silicon.
What about the microphonics!
I guess everything a valve amp can do a DSP and lookup table could do but it's probably more direct to use valves instead of all the extra mathematical and software engineering that would have to be done to emulate valve characteristics.
The SID is not a sound reproduction device that needs to reproduce sound as accurately as possible. Its job is to generate pleasing sounds. Therefore adding pleasing sounding distortions is IMO a good thing. Still, I think tubes are a bit overhyped: They may sound more pleasing when overdriven, but under normal drive, they don't do amplification better than a transistor. The sound fragments sound like perfectly normal SID sound to me, not better, not worse.
DOOD!
Nice new c64 board .love the filtering on board 😊
I'm not sure what was changed but a quality of this video is much better compared to your older videos.
Oh, I didn’t really change anything recently. I put a lot of work into this one, maybe that shows. :D Thanks!
Why didn't they make it a C128?
This video makes me want to buy a reloaded
Then this one hour long advertisement has functioned well!
The link is in the video description, too! ;)
Amazing looking board!
EDUUUU Cuanto tiempo sin leerte tio! Desde que me quité de Twitter... 😅
@@thefunkdroid2777 hombre!! claro, ya no te juntas con la plebe :)
Why are the dipswitches above the SIDs on small PCBs?
Those DIP switches are removable. They sit on top of standard headers so that an auto-switching module like the Keyman64 can be added to control ROM changes if that’s desired
because they are temporary and act like jumpers. THere will be a remote control and a keyboard switcher, eventually.
can I have a free board too T.T I'm poor.
44:49 The new tube tracks trigger my surroundsound on my home theater!
I would guess it does that because of the slight phase variations between the different SID models. The early implementations of surround sound were using phase-shifting to get the additional channels. Not quite sure if that is still used for the modern digital Dolby surround stuff but it probably still is implemented in most surround devices. :D
How about a compare to the similar "Reloaded MK2" ?
Um, did you watch the video?
to hear the beste difference between the original and the nutube version, you should make another video with only one SID because you use a different SID chip on every channel, i can't really compare the difference...!
Yes, good point!
The FPGA Sid uses Dual Sid can you explain that sometime
Oh, I think the way it works is that it's just "listening" to the standard addresses that the regular "physical" dual SID mods usually use. The FPGA allows for two SIDs to be emulated at once. The ARMSID is able to do the same. It's just a matter of running an extra connection to the output jack to get the stereo effect. :)
Sure a project from die-hard C64 fans with the idea of bringing almost every modern mods and tweaks in that you can have. However, the C64 has turned 40 last year and I think that it is sure worth trying such a project from a creative point of view, but personally, I wouldn´t want it. I am doing fine with my box standard system with new caps and the "usual" stuff from back in the day....BTW: there is a Pioneer multimedia system "SPH-EVO64DAB - Car Entertainment Multimedia Receiver" available...sure doesn´t have anything in common with this piece of hardware...
I sold my C64 to finance an Amiga 500. The Amiga was fantastic and helped me to move forward in computing, but I never felt the sense of wonder, excitement and discovery that went with the 64. I never thought that I would see the day when we actually had a choice of new implementations to choose from! Happy days again.
Does this fit in the C64C case as well as the “breadbin” ?
Yes, it fits both. Although there seems to be a slight positioning issue with the audio jack on the preamp board if you put it in a C64C case (the connector doesn't quite line up with the cutout in the case but you can work around that by using slightly smaller standoffs for the preamp board). Breadbin case fits 100% fine.
In the 8-Bit Guy's video, he had to change the stand-offs and physically re-drill one of the screw holes in the board because it was the wrong size. For such an expensive product, they didn't seem to do a lot of testing.
Yeah, that board definitely looks to be better fitting in a bread bin case. ;)
@@domramsey well, it IS based on assy 250407 - and that's bread bin suited. ;)
yes perfectly on the C64. Jack audio: no problem. The production version of the nutube64 has pads for the jack ABOVE and BELOW the board so you can put the plug wherever you want.
You really need to build one of them ATX64 boards that are developed by a German. It is like a Sixtyclone, but taken in a completely different direction.
I actually have the C64 tower board from the creator of that one here but didn't get around building that yet! The ATX64 is something I'm super interested in, too. I think I'm going to get one of those sometime!
@@JanBeta We are not that many who own a fully build one. Personally I am figuring out how to create a case from scratch for my ATX64....
But you should really do it. Build yours. It is a wierd an unique machine. If you do it, then perhaps mod the ROM's to fitt your build, like I did with the info screen at the top, when powering on.
Now I have to go research this. Why do I get the feeling reading this comment is going to cost me several hundred bucks 😂
@@Retrocomputernerd From personally making one ATX64, then yes it will become expensive. 🙂
I like those kinds of project, but I also wonder with all the replacement parts that aren’t really made like the originals, do we just move closer and closer to distributing something really similar to an FPGA implementation, but distributed across a traditional board?
We have made quite a bit of effort to remain as faithful to the original system architecture as we thought made sense, given what's possible to have produced today, in small batches.
@@C64EVO No doubt about that and I’m not criticizing your efforts, in fact I appreciate them a lot! I just wonder about the differences to FPGA implementations, especially because they also keep on getting better 😊
Who every designed this board went crazy with the capacitors...
In addition to replacing all of the original ceramic disk capacitors, there are also quite a few caps being used in the audio signal path, to provide smoothing consistency.
Tom, I`m proud of it, and I still think I did not go all way I should have. When you put the ultra-low-noise 5V step-down there is ABSOLUTELY no hum in the speakers. And the new ultra-low-noise 24-36 step up - which I use to drive - and overdrive - the nutubes is even better.
Its not a c64, its not a c64 - thats it
That’s why the video title says that it’s a replica. Still pretty close to an original c64 though. ;)
A working C64 is a lot cheaper atound here.
Obviously, yes.
talk about stating the obvious.
O rly?
@@TheKnobCalledTone. Indeed.
NuTubes are known to be microphonic. Does tapping the board affect the noise?
I'd buy one of the aftermarket mounting solutions, just to be sure.
I'm sure you want to hear Jan's response to that question, but I can add that the mounting solution that has been implemented for EVO does already include vibration dampening, which should resist microphonics under basic movement conditions, like using the keyboard. It would take a more abrupt and deliberate type of system jostling to cause any discernible microphonic noise to enter the signal.
@@C64EVO oh good!
1) no if you type on the C64 2) no if you tap the board 3) yes if you tap the nutube. The device is NOT mounted flush with the board but elevated of 2-3 mm, to reduce vibration. As the guy below says, it is possible to put a foamy support and a flex connector
@@auro1999 nice