@@reptile1687the Bible says clearly to have righteous judgement meaning we should be able to know something is a sin and make rules so the church can stay away from sin. You may believe it’s judgmental but if you think our “judgement” is bad you are NOT ready for the judgement of God. You have accepted the sinner as we should but you have also accepted the sin which Jesus never did. Praying for you to believe in the truth.
@@braedanmitchell3794 the bible also says let those whon have not sinned throw the first stone, and since the bible says we all are born in sin, none of us have never sinned, so you cant cast judement on sinners when you yourself haved sinned bjust by being born
@@braedanmitchell3794 and how do you know what is the truth, there are hundred of different religions all over the world who would all tell me that theirs is the real truth, so why should i take yours over theirs?
Kind of disagree here. The Liberal wing (ironically) barred the African Methodists from voting the first time, through a technicality. They have recently barred Africa AND Asia from voting on American policies at all. The conservatives didn't run, they were politely asked to leave using the bylaws.
Exactly. Instead of starting their own church where they could practice whatever they wanted they joined and slowly corrupted the Methodist church and pulled the “If you don’t like it, then leave.” to the conservative side. Not to mention those in positions of power either lacked the means or the spine to stop this nonsense long before it took hold. Those of us as conservatives had no way to remove these bad people from their power position. It’s a failure of the system as much as it’s a failure of those practicing the sin.
@@MoonMoverGaming it was definitely discussed. But no the official involuntary exodus was in response the barring of the African Methodists. I would suggest checking your source, because mine was first hand.
I don't agree. He says conservatives are cowardly for leaving. I wouldn't want to associate with a church body where almost half clearly don't read the bible. You don't bend scripture to fit the whims of modern society. It's very clear what Jesus and God thought of the institution of marriage. I'd just leave and start over again too. It's the opposite of cowardly.
You are entirely wrong on this one. The conservatives won the issue regarding the book of discipline, but the progressives just ignored it. They continued to affirm SSM and LGBT clergy in spite of the book of discipline, all the way to the top. Conservatives weren't "uncaring" for their heritage, they didnt "give up", the very standards of the church became meaningless, there was no longer a point in fighting it.
As someone who’s been following the situation closely, I completely agree with you But one point of argument that could be made is if the conservative has the majority, Why didn’t they have the topics executives? And couldn’t they have waited until they got a chance to place some of their own at the top? But again, I do agree with you. And let’s not forget shady, and Down, right disgraceful it was that They did not change the number of delegates from 2020 Just so they Could make sure that the mass exit would help the liberals
But that's not outrageous enough. The stats prove it, the timeline proves it, basic logic proves it, but apparently we're just supposed to ignore that.
@@ammsgod1764 - Conservatives wanted to grow churches and do missions and sometimes move up in leadership. The liberals lived to control processes. They took control of the seminaries generations ago, played politics, controlled agendas and conversation. Plus as a group we were like cats who refused to be herded.
@@user-lu9mf7wk7v Makes sense. I just think that there would have been a long hard thought way that conservatives could have taken control of the seminaries and leadership. With that being I would not have gone that route. I would have left and split also.
Catholic here, praying for all my Protestant brothers and sisters. Take heart! Matthew 10:22 “You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
I'm a cradle Methodist and I just cannot strengthen a church preaching a false gospel. I'm going to visit both a Lutheran Missouri Synod congregation near me, and a Catholic. If those go against marriage which is essentially a sacrament, I will abandon them because I won't strengthen them. We're in deep trouble in general. I am 41 so I don't have 40 years to find out you can't kick out heretics as Redeemed Zoomer can. I need a solid church foundation for a family today, not in 20-50 years. If I drop dead, they need a church home that isn't gay.
I think your characterization of the conservatives retreating after winning is a bit one-dimensional. Sure, the conservatives won that vote, and the book of rules remained unchanged. But the church organization failed to enforce their rules; a practicing homosexual could still be ordained because the UMC wouldn’t enforce their own rules. So yeah, the conservatives won the vote, but they really didn’t win. The recent decision changes nothing in the UMC.
@@g.williams2047 Has nothing to do with that. The progressives just ignore anything not in their favor and most of those in power are either against or don't enforce traditional Christian values. There's no battle to even be fought. It's already over.
It's not that progressives don't take their faith seriously, it's that they find different aspects of it to be more meaningful and it is typically based on biblical evidence. To list one example, the word *arsenokoitai* which is typically attributed to homosexuality has several scholar disagreements on what it actually means. Check out the RSV translation of 1 Corinthians 6:9 if you don't believe me
Arsenokoitai has several scholar disagreements on what it means which is why there's a prevalence in people "moving toward" affirming gay people. I suggest you look into the historical context for same-sex acts back then because it was very different than nowadays. Also for an example of varying interpretations, check out 1 Corinthians 6:9 for one interpretation. Many of these interpretations existed before the word homosexual was added to the bible.
@@tobiasrieper8368 Jesus said: "From the beginning of creation, God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one flesh." He was talking about marriage, it's male and female. Aren't his words enough? Take the whole bible, gay marriage wasn't even something to consider whether it was right or wrong because that was more than obvious. Haven't you read when Paul in 1 Corinthians 5 mentions a guy who was sleeping with his dad's wife? Isn't the Bible clear enough? Jesus didn't condemn the women caught in adultery, but he said "Go and sin no more".
God’s Word is TRUTH… in 2008, I was a gay-identified man, in a committed, monogamous same-sex relationship, active in an affirming church, then found myself in an ICU where the medical team classified me clinically dead after a 22-minute flatline. I experienced death, judgement and hell. When I couldn’t take any more demonic torment, I cried out in repentance, “Jesus!” and I heard the Savior say, “I am here.” At that moment, I saw with my eyes the Wind of the Holy Spirit fill my ICU and with great power, He pick up Satan and the demonic and blew them out of the room. On that day, my life changed, the redemptive Blood of Jesus cleared my mind, and completely healed and restored every failing organ. Glory to God!
....Damn yall really need to make better stories and propoganda pieces. Since the medical team classified you as dead, that means they did not bring you back(using the shocks). And we KNOW that the longest a heart has ever been "dead"(i.e flatlined) and came back is 4 minutes 20 seconds. Bluntly speaking, if what you are saying is true you would have been a miracle that would have had WORLD fame in the news, and this would have 100% made it in the web. So if you were really dead for 22 minutes, it would have been published online, and since then it would have also been available on the net, which it is NOT So stop lying
So our aim should be to preserve a dead denomination? Why is that battle so important? The heritage of Wesley survives outside of the UMC. The UMC is not the priority to keep afloat. the Gospel is the priority.
Zoomer with all due respect, I think you're wrong about conservatives running away from the mainline churches. Conservatives are not able to get into positions with any sort of influence due to corruption at the upper leadership of the church; and are actively persecuted and driven out by the liberals in the denomination whenever they object. What options does a minister or a bishop have when their own denomination ousts them & their congregations for simply trying to hold the christian faith?
The plan of the Reconquista is to reinforce the conservative minorities so that they outlive the dying liberals. Eventually the conservatives will outlive the liberals and be able to retake the denomination.
No, that doesn't make sense. Can you not imagine a time where the upper leadership was not "corrupt" against the liberals? At some point they had all the cards stacked against them.
I like a lot of your takes and views but I think you're completely off the mark when it comes to the Methodist church specifically. The conservatives won at the 2019 conference, but they lost when it actually came to enforcing what the conference ruled. The progressive faction of the church did what progressive do and ignored the conference's rulings. They did what progressive do and installed progressives in positions of power and then undermined the will of the vast majority of the people of the organization they're in. The problem isn't that conservatives are cowardly, it's that they abide by rules, and it's hard to fight an enemy who won't abide by rules that you are bound to play by. Which is what this whole issue is about: when you actually follow what the bible says and submit to authority, you're in a disadvantage when people who don't believe in the Bible (e.g. progressives in church). Our church joined the Global Methodist Church, which let us keep our pastor, and our church, and all our resources, plus pay lower dues, plus stop giving money to the UMC. We did what we believed to be Biblically correct, and as a result, we're not supporting a secular organization larping as a church. It's not like you say, where we're now meeting in a strip mall. An average church goer at my church wouldn't know anything changed other than the vote we took.
Yeah you’re absolutely right. Zoomer is off base as an outsider looking in. Most churches that disaffiliated saw the writing on the wall and chose to get out while still maintaining their property, congregation, resources and homes, because that leniency is completely gone now. The NC bishops where I’m from have been especially bad and nasty about disaffiliating churches. The ship was already sinking, the conservatives were basically given an ultimatum.
This is why I'm glad the Catholics define this as one of the sins that cry to heaven to vengeance. Yes, you'll get priests and bishops that vehemently fight this, but ultimately the church can never truly "affirm" sin.
@@igorlopes7589 I think you also have to remind yourself that this was in response to German bishops and giving an asthma would not help the situation only cause further division, but I do agree that the ambiguous messaging is something to be criticized. Fact the matter is sinners can be blessed, but that presupposes that they are in a repentance-state wanting to come back to the truth of sexuality.
@@user-ku1kz4gz8q Exactly, the only problem with Fiducia is that it doesn't say word for word that repentance and a commitement to chastity are needed for the blessing. The same issue with Amoris Laetitia, actually
As someone who has attended a methodist church that switched from UMC to GMC, there is one thing missing about this video, which is how methodists run their churches. Everything is run like an organization. Pastors are regularly swapped between churches at a methodist church, same with staff... Are you starting to see the problem? With UMC, if the higher ups are affirming of heresy, they will just throw out whoever disagrees with them, or move them constantly. The ruling never mattered. With GMC, pastors were able to stay at their churches and actually preach the Bible rather than politics and worldy views on sex and gender.
I was told to leave the UMC about 15 years ago because I said homosexuality is a sin. I suppose I could have stayed but the "pastor" had the final say. BTW, that "pastor" is now in the PCUSA..
Homosexuality isn't a sin, and leverging it as one is bad because it has tangible negative impacts on real people. If you can't be an accepting, loving member of a community, that community has the right to ask you to leave.
Me and my family were asked to leave our United Methodist Church a few years ago because of this. They fired the best youth pastor I ever had for the same reason. It was either agree or be asked to leave/get fired.
We pulled away from the UMC because at the time in 2019 the UMC was already set up for the progressives to win the vote, we only began to leave because if we did not take action after our vote had already been submitted on the issue, we would've be at the liberty of the denomination to take our church building away effectively starting us over from square one and we would have to gather wherever the Lord led us to until we got a new church building again. We and our pastor fought tooth and nail to try to overturn the vote within the denomination and our church even did a vote within the church itself once the progressives had won the vote and by a near unanimous vote being 1 against, we voted to secede from the denomination to follow in line with what the word of God says. We still love our brothers and sisters no matter if they are following a sinful path, but we will not remain in a denomination running full throttle into a woke/progressive future where they would have full legal authority to revoke our church from us at any point in time based on those same sinful views they voted into the denomination which are contrary to the word of God.
@@annb9029 For now our church is nondenom until we decide what denomination we will join next. Originally we were considering the United Wesleyan Church, but I'm not sure what we are considering at this current moment.
Hey Zoomer! I appreciate all of your videos, and this one hits home as the UMC church I grew up in split about a year ago due to this LGBT issue. It was very hard for a lot of churchgoers. While I do wish that the conservative group had been able to stay and try to effect positive change, I just want to say I think this issue is a bit more nuanced than what you have shared in thie video. For example, the church held a vote on whether to stay United Methodist or leave. Leaving got more votes because most churchgoers were traditionalists, but it did not meet a 2/3 majority, so the church remained a UMC. This prompted the split where conservative members left to start a new congregation. I would not be surprised if this happened in many different churches. Also, the United Methodist leadership has the right to move pastors around to whatever church they wish, which could cause a conservative congregation to get a very liberal pastor with no say-so. IIRC, we also had a pastor who "left" the church (was forced to resign) due to disagreement on this issue. As others have stated, the progressives in overall church leadership have taken over, which makes it extremely difficult for traditionalists to get a foothold in leadership positions to actually make changes. Just wanted to add some extra context from personal experience. Perhaps the Young Methodists For Tradition will have success. I really appreciate the content you are putting out there Zoomer! Finding channels like yours has really helped me better understand theology and church history. God bless!
1 Corinthians 5:13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.” If God tells to expel the immoral believer, we need to leave a fellowship in which immoral are the majority and have control. Paul also said in 2 Corinthinians to not be unequally yoked, so we shouldn't be partnering with people who act live unbelievers.
One hard part about this is that Methodist pastors are moved periodically, and the individual churches don't get much say in who their next pastor will be.
@@matheuscaneta1194 2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?
@@matheuscaneta1194 "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them;" (Ephesians 5:11). I don't really have time to give a long list and had no intentions on getting into a theological debate in the UA-cam comments section. If you want to see a defense of this position, then look up the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster on separatism.
Don't confuse politics with worship. Do not confuse my desiring to not be in fellowship with people that have differing beliefs with cowardice. Politically, conservatives need to grow a backbone.
My family was kicked out of a UMC several years ago over the same issue. My parents now meet with 3 former members of the congregation at one of their houses for church every Sunday, one of my siblings attends a non-denominational church, and I attend an EPC church.
A good friend of mine, a former UMC pastor, left his position after they allowed in a gay bishop to lead the organization (I think in 2014 or so). He didn’t like the direction and left instead of pushing back, too. A downward spiral ever since.
@@TheVioletArmy a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
@@TheVioletArmy a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
Staying in these heretical churches is dangerous to new believers and non believers. It gives the impression that you approve of the heretical teachings. In the amount of time it would take conservatives to reconquer these churches, countless people will have been deceived into thinking lgbtxyz lifestyles are compatible with Christianity. It's better to abandon these heretical churches and loudly declare them heretical. Other denominations need to loudly disown them and claim they are no longer Christian if they preach blasphemous and dangerous theology.
@@Anonymous-zm8bn You actually can change it. First of theres no such thing as transgender. If you have XX chromosomes you are a woman regardless of what you call yourself or how you you dress and if you have XY chromosomes you are a man. Period. Let go of your delusion and repent and turn from your sins, which includes you lying and saying you are the opposite sex when you're not. That's how you become a Christian.
The problem was that the conservative won the vote , but the ruling was disregarded by rebellious clergy. They just kept on consecrating gay bishops. So conservatives had to leave, and separate.
While I'm all for trying to fight and save one's Church; there is also times when one should seek a better fit; as not all battles are winnable. Now there needs to be a long game played, which the progressives have done for decades. I just don't see that coming about within many congregations, as there is a heavy handed push from many organizational structures. I was once a methodist, but even before these latest events I had shifted away as it became more social than scriptural.
Key component of every denomination that's name starts with UNITED it's synonymous with PROGRESSIVE. Most of those in Canada started celebrating ''same sex weddings'' the minute it became legal here in 2005.
(Former) United Methodist here, went to church yesterday 5/5/24 and upon hearing the news, I knew it was my last service. I’m not anti lgbt but I do oppose political changes made to church doctrine. I worry about what they’ll do next so I’m not sticking around to find out.
You have to be anti-alphabet mafia in order to be Christian. You have to hate sin, but not people. Otherwise it is treating sin as joke, and what Jesus did as meaningless.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,” It was already prophesied that many churches and believers would fall away from God, calling good evil and evil good. Don’t be deceived by clever arguments or by the coming anti-Christ’s signs and wonders, which will also be performed by the False Prophet. Remember that God promises his followers that the pain of tribulation will be nothing compared to the reward he gives to those who are faithful to Him and His son, Jesus Christ. God bless, Christ is King 👑
They did the biblical thing, unlike Redeemed Zoomer here. You will be punished for having been in any kind of fellowship with such an organization. We are called to leave apostate dead denominations with their ecclesiastical darkness behind, whether we like it or not (and the UMC is dead, there is nothing left to save. It has been passed over to judgement long ago).
@@hilohilo9539 If that’s not so called biblical way then why haven’t you told the Spanish & the Portuguese to give up when their land is under Muslim occupation for 800 years ?.
7600 congregations have left . . . many more want to but are stuck due to financial or administrative reasons . . . this will be the impetus for thousands more.
For as much as you give flack to Nondenoms (such as my church and I can send links if you'd like) are growing and fostering great communities. I don't know why you have such disdain for other styles in the "big C" Church at large. Is it not just as good to spread the gospel (so long as it's true and not heretical) no matter which music/hymns are sung, or the architecture, or the dress code? And maybe (almost certainly) this is an outlier, but my Nondenom church was founded in the 1830s, so the argument of "they don't have staying power" I don't see playing out. As of post-covid, we have record baptisms and growth across the board on levels we haven't seen in decades, even when we've stood firm talking about transformers, LGTV community, Israel, Sex & Dating, etc.
I'm not a Methodist but I have family members who are in the Methodist church. From what I understand, the time to fight for conservatives was years ago. Even though they won the vote back in 2019, most positions in authority we're occupied by liberals who refused to acknowledge the vote. The conservatives left because they couldn't really do anything and if they stayed, then the liberals would make it hard for them to leave. I know you think that they needed to fight in 2019. I'm curious to hear your opinions on how they would have been able to do that. Thoughts?
@@beachgirl5316Been saying it for a few years now, while the secular views the church as “declining”, I see a beautiful refinement of Gods true church and elect in the West that will be brighter than ever before after it!
Zoomer, you have been calling conservatives who left their denominations cowards. What did conservatives who stayed do for the last 80+ years? Most conservatives and conservative churches stayed and now they have become problems...not reformers. Seems that conservatives who left are doing better than those who stayed in. Still calling them cowards?
He wants to save the institutions, which isn’t bad per se. However, he is way too willing to fellowship with very suspect people. When an organization shows such blatant disregard for the Bible, one should consider the spiritual health of his family and get them out of there, not for his own sake but so that the souls of the weaker are not damned because you were trying to saved buildings and ignoring the heresies they were absorbing.
@@g.williams2047 I agree. I like Zoomer and his efforts, however, it is too late for PCUSA and his approach is too "pansy". Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) conservatives were able to retake the denomination because they were able to nip liberals early, but more importantly they went HARD. These are the actions SBC conservatives (only took like 6 or 7 pastors and they went in blazing) took. First, they took back the seminaries. o They convinced major donors and board to support them o They fired all professors who would not subscribe to the inerrancy of the bible o All professors who will not teach Reformed Baptist confessions (Calvinistic) were fired o Informed female seminary students that SBC seminaries will NOT support them to be pastors Churches o Told all female pastor led churches that they cannot be part o Affirmed the male and female relationships and no gay pastors Confessions o Added in the SBC Statement of Faith that women cannot be pastors o Inerrancy of the bible is a must They were will be take the loss. About 20-25% of the churches left, but the remain SBC grew three times within 10 years. Those who left formed another denomination and they are championing LGBTQ causes now when they were warned that they are headed that way before the split. Zoomers passive and pansy way will NEVER work.
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son of daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:24-37) The Church Visible is not exempt from this. Christendom, the Household of Faith, does not magically avoid the consequences of this warning from Christ himself. This is exactly the kind of thing this passage is talking about, and why I fundamentally disagree with the idea of 'blaming' the Faithful who part ways with the heretic and the apostate for why denominations are falling to heresy and apostacy. It is not the faithful who flee from the face of evil that are to blame, but the failure of Church Discipline that these ideas were not expelled from these denominations. It is a failure of the men called to be Shepherds, under the Great Shepherd. And when the supposed Shepherd is leading the flock astray, it is in the best interest of the Flock to find a faithful and true Shepherd. "Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night." (Psalm 1:1-2) "Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols?" (2 Corinthians 6:14-16a) If we are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers in our home lives, how much less should we tolerate ourselves to be so in our Churches? The Apostles warn throughout the New Testament to have nothing to do with those who teach what is contrary to Word of God, especially when it is in the guise of being 'righteous', in very firm and uncompromising terms. And if those in error refuse to listen to correction, and the Faithful have not the authority to cast them out from their midst, or worse, are subject to their authority, then there is no guilt or shame in removing yourself from under that authority. "If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it our and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell." (Matthew 5:29-30) If this hard teaching of Christ applies to our bodies as individuals, how much more so does it apply to the body of the Church Invisible? For there is no special holiness in a great earthly lineage of church buildings or historic institutions. These are the product of man, and as subject to corruption and sin as any other institution. And we see this in places like the UMC, where the rot was not cast out, where the shepherds went astray with their flocks. Christ promised to preserve his Church and his Word. He did not promise to preserve the man-made organizations associated with his Church, or spare them from the consequences of our fallen nature. "Ecclesia Semper Reformanda" is not a call to cling to historic legacies, institutions, traditions, or buildings; but a call to stay faithful to the Law and Gospel, in the form the Scriptures teach us.
I think at some point you have to shake the dust from your feet and leave them to God's judgement, it is not possible to save everyone for the kingdom, we must keep going forward. Run the race brothers and sisters.
They affirm gay marriage because the word arsenokoitai, the word commonly attributed to homosexuality by evangelicals, doesn't have a clear set in stone meaning. It's been a topic of debate by many scholars. Check out 1 Corinthians 6:9 RSV for an example of one interpretation of it. There's more to it but that's a summary
@@tobiasrieper8368 I know the arguments over the word, my conscience has also been created by God, and the concept that homosexuality or other sexual perversion is at all acceptable to a God who created both man and woman (because man was lonely) is personally disgusting and undeniably existentially perverted. I am convinced that anybody who argues from the theologically liberal side to this has cursed the Spirit and is eternally damned. So be it.
@@tobiasrieper8368 I don't know a single person with a decent head on their shoulders who somehow reads any ambiguity on whether or not homosexuality is affirmed. It is beyond clear from multiple places in scripture that it is sin.
@@pcdeltalink036 First of all, humongous ad-hominem. Secondly, I responded to something similar in another comment so I'll re-paste it here: The word malakoi is a word that translates "soft" or "mentally weak." In the ancient world, it was commonly used to describe the effeminancy of boys who allowed themselves to be used for gay practice. Gay sex back then was about power and dominance, which explains why it would be condemned. There was no concept of modern sexual orientation back then and it had no influence on the text since it wasn't even thought up yet and also why the modern condemnation of homosexuality is, as you said, recent. Here are various examples of 1 Corinthians 6:9 translations to give you an idea: RSV: *"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts"* NRSV: *"Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes,[a] men who engage in illicit sex[b]"* Erasmus 2nd Edition (Martin Luther's Bible): *"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Don't let yourself be seduced! Neither the fornicators, nor the idolaters, nor the adulterers, nor the sissies, nor the molesters"* [a] and [b]: Meaning of Greek uncertain (Source: BibleGateway.com) Source for Erasmus original German translation: textus-receptus.com/wiki/1_Corinthians_6:9#German These are just a few examples, and it's written right there in the footnotes that the Greek meaning is uncertain. Something that we don't know the exact meaning of cannot be preached as irrefutable doctrine.
While I am no longer part of the SDA church, they taught about from a Historicist perspective on the 7 churches of Revelation. We’re in the midst of Laodicea, AKA “Neither Hot nor Cold.” Many Conservative churches preach Principle with no love, and many Liberal churches preach love with no principle. We are no longer hot nor cold; we are lukewarm. We are fulfilling prophecy. We’re close to the end. Stick it out, Brethren.
Gotta say I don’t like the thumbnail. Ran away? No, we left a doomed denomination that follows the ways of the world and decides the Bible can change based on what is popular or current. We saw the writing on the wall at the last general conference when conservative views were just barely upheld by a mere handful of votes. 97% of my church voted to leave Methodism and the increasingly sinful views they uphold.
Its great how people in the comments are justifying the Methodists decision by quoting scripture "Jesus says to love us, judge not, etc." But also dont seem to remember that even the devil quoted scriptures to make his argument...
So, either we discard all scripture, or we use the scripture in conjunction with the historical and literary context in order to not be deceived by Satan. And in the literary context, the word used by Leviticus that is often translated into English as homosexual activity is miškevē, which is only other used in Genesis 49:4 (making it a hapax legomenon), which deals with homosexual incestuous behavior. Therefore, it makes the most sense to take this scripture, in combination with other scripture about loving one another from the Lord God Jesus Christ, to be able to complete the picture of how the Bible treats homosexuality. The Bible is very open to interpretation, so it can be hard to figure the entire picture out.
Of course, and it's easy to twist Scripture to make it fit your worldview. My point was just that people love when the Holy Bible says "Judge not" but always seem to forget the parts where it says "Sin not".
@@m.hendricks6325 of course, you ignore my explanation on how the Bible has deep context and you jump straight back to me 'twisting scripture'. i told you, this isn't a sin, i just gave an explanation as to why.
So sad. Churches can leave but the UMC claims ownership of their church buildings, personages etc even though the UMC has contributed absolutely nothing in the construction and maintenance of the buildings. Will wind up costing a lot of money to leave. Lots of the members have been attending services within their walls for many generations and are centers of their communities. Of course the conference doesn’t care.
I understand your sentiment, and do not necessarily disagree with it. However, I think many conservatives are not merely single men and women, and don't want their children/families growing up in a household who says 'this is how the church should be, and what they believe' while going to a denomination that has completely flips that. Many conservatives are simply trying to find the best church, who offers real bread, to feed their families with - if the congregation they attend doesn't provide bread - why would they stay and risk the development of their families?
I went to United Methodist when growing up (not super consistently but we went somewhat regularly, did Sunday school for couple years) but haven't been to church in many years. Been wanting to go back and was just thinking about trying the United Methodist church that's close to me, but ehhhhhh... maybe not. I am not interested in any progressive BS. Think it's worth just going anyway and seeing how that particular church is?
Yes because it's good to get an all around understanding of why people believe what they believe. If you get the chance, ask them why they believe that their interpretation is biblically correct and see how they reply
RZ quick question but let's say I'm writing a paper on Project Reconquista. Do I need to contact you in any shape or form for this or can I just like do it? It's not an in-depth paper, just maybe a section or two. I know in the nondenom video I may have come out a bit aggressive but that was never the intention.
To the OP... bro, the GMC saw where it was all going, and they were right. The general conference had a thing where they were introducing themselves with their pronouns. You can not win an argument with stupidity. They bowed out... and good on them.
How do you become part of a church denomination that is liberal while also not supporting their libertalism? Like, join a conservative parish? I've always been part of a non denominational church since attending church regularly again, so I am completely ignorant of the politics involved.
Umc controlled who was the pastor. So they could tank a conservative "parish" by flooding it with liberal leadership until the conservatives and conservative leaning just pick up and leave.
You can't stop people from believing what they want to believe. If the majority wants to be wrong, and you loudly disagree with them, the only thing you will accomplish is to be called a bigot.
I was looking at the Operation Reconquista map. I am from Canada (east of Toronto along the lake) and wanted to look at churches on your list. I noticed there are only Presbyterian and Anglican Churches but none around where I live, even though there are both of those types of churches nearby. Correct me if I'm wrong but surely those two aren't the only denominations or specific churches that are true to the gospel??
To say that they are the only two true denominations is wrong. All main Protestant churches are good. I’m personally very militantly against the paganism of Rome and the Eastern church this I would not join either of them.
Conservative Methodists oughta just rejoin the Anglican church. It's the best thing for unity, and it's what Wesley himself would've wanted. Im sure the ACNA or something like it would accept the methodist churches
How is TULIP compatible with the Ontological argument, as there must be a greates way of treating someone which means treating everyone the same, so either universalism, universal damnation, or arminian soteriology?
Universalism is incompatible with the Ontological Argument, because a God who punishes evil is greater than a God who does not. A God who has mercy is greater than a God who does not. How do you reconcile these? The Incarnation of Christ. He is punished on behalf of the faithful. That way, no sin goes unpunished. A God who controls everything that is good is greater than a God who does not control everything that is good. That means that all virtue and goodness is credited to God, and none else.
Why isn't leaving the exact thing a faithful Christian should do? Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth. If this is the case, then either same-sex marriage is true and conservatives need to change or the UMC was never the Church at all.
no, that doesn't make sense. Suppose the entire leadership changed their mind and voted conservative, that would then restore the truth. So just because it was voted for at this current time doesn't make it the "true" definite truth, therefore your reasoning doesn't hold up.
@@onleynin The point is that the Church can't fall into this sort of error. So either this is a legitimate development of doctrine and conservatives need to get on board or this is a grave error and the whole thing was rotten from the start.
@@dewaldt8104 Its odd that the UMC is called protestant. They have no role in it. Nothing to do with Luther, calvin or any of the goofy solas, It roots are catholic anglicism. No part with Luther et al. No idea why they allowed themselves to be associated with it.
I have a question I think I've been getting lukewarm or backslidden. For the past month What's your advice on getting out of this state And really getting on fire for God Sometimes it's hard for me To read my bible Or talk to God Because when I mess up or sin I just feel like I can't talk to him about it And I just dig myself into a hole
I have the same problem quite often, you just got to remember that at the end of the day, we are all sinners, and we got to get back up and try again, God is ever forgiving and never turns away those who seek him.
You already have the answer, communicate with God through prayer, and read His Word. It sounds like you want a way to persevere. Practice what you already know to be true. You are in a spiritual battle. Tell yourself the truth. Read the Bible as if you're curious about what's in it. The Spirit helps. You might not feel on fire at first. Tell Him you want Christ with no pre conception of how your life unfolds. You are building a relationship with Christ. Congratulations !🙏
If you feel like this need to be "on fire for god" is causing you stress, maybe take a break from religion. Focus on the other things in your life until you feel better. Or just go talk to a therapist.
yeah the sin was rape and hostility towards outsiders, the two angels being disguised as men made no difference as the same wouldve happened if the angels were disguised as women
@@reptile1687but the men rejected Lot’s daughters, if they wanted to, they would have taken Lots Daughters instead. but they did not. They instead insisted on having sex with the angels. This homosexuality was a part of their sins.
Are you sure the sin in question was homosexuality or rather *the violation of sacred hospitality*, something that was considered the ultimate evil in the ancient world? Remember Lot offered one of his own daughters to suffer instead of himself. It was only in light of this that Mosaic Law prohibited "laying with men as with women", something you seemed to view as sacrosanct. They essentially confused homosexual SA with homosexuality as a whole. Hence, every homosexual (and by extention every non-straight person) to date needlessly suffered for the actions of a few. That is not just. Let me say it again, the crime was rape and violation of sacred hospitality, not merely "being gay." That said though, there are examples of true sodomy in the world. Men who actually force themselves on other men deserve your derision, not men who fall in love with each other and want to live happy lives together. Remember, Jesus worked with people the Pharisees considered unclean, like prostitutes, lepers, criminals and tax payers... of all things. Should we deny gay people salvation and forgiveness simply because they are gay - or, by extention, denying X people salvation and forgiveness simply because they are X?
@@PetroBeherha I appreciate you responding, so let me answer. 1. Yes and No, though you are correct in the view of hospitality, the lord still punishes homosexuality. In Leviticus 20:13 both men are punished for the sin of homosexuality. If it was just standerd old rape, it would make no sense to punish the rape victim as well, especially sense, by the logic of the story of Sodom and Ghommorah, God is clearly shown punishing those who rape. Even by Old Testament standards, punishing the victim as well is cruel. This is also the case with 1st Corinthians 6:9, where people argue that Paul is talking about boy sec slaves and their rapists, if that was the case, that is horrible. Imagine being used for some old man’s pleasure as a CHILD, and being damned to hell. No God punishes those who indulge I their own desires and pleasures, this also involves gay couples as well, as much as that may hurt to hear. There are many examples of Christians who have gay thoughts, but do not indulge in them. They can often be found in the comments of videos that discuss this topic. If you have the time I would try to find a “Gay-Celibate Christian”, as I might try to do myself. And you are correct that Jesus hung around the poor and the sinners, but they repented of their ways and left changed. Jesus healed the sick, both physically, and spiritually. I hope that answers your questions. Thanks for the discussion. Edit: and to add to your last question, WE cannot deny salvation to anyone, unless we lead them from the faith, or hide the gift of salvation from them. None are truly denied salvation. Though neither I, nor you, or anyone truly deserve salvation, all need it, and it is open to all, including gay people, including drug addicts and porn addicts and alcoholics, murderers, adulterers and including me and You. But we must produce works according to salvation, which means rejecting our former passions and desires. This is not easy, I struggle with this as any other Christian does, but ultimately we have comfort In our lord and savior Jesus Christ, through whom we are forgiven.
It's not even a church at this point it's just a demonic congregation. I pray for these people. "Father, Forgive them. They don't know what they're doing."- Luke 23:34.
Arsenokoitai has several scholar disagreements on what it means which is why there's a prevalence in people "moving toward" affirming gay people. I suggest you look into the historical context for same-sex acts back then because it was very different than nowadays. Also for an example of varying interpretations, check out 1 Corinthians 6:9 for one interpretation. Many of these interpretations existed before the word homosexual was added to the bible. There's quite a few other reasonings, but you just attributing it to demonic influence is purely ad-hominem and plainly not a good way to approach disagreement
We dont have time to "fight back". If a church turns against God, we leave and join another with biblical values. Nothing to do with retreat. You cant just waste years fighting against a clear majority just let them have it and move on
@@redeemedzoomer6053"Retreating" from what? Pointless titles and organizations made by man? If you "win" your battle then God gains nothing. No more people are going to be saved because of it. In fact, you could argue that fewer would end up saved because the effort you spent trying to "win" that battle could have instead been spent on preaching the gospel to people.
@redeemedzoomer6053 sincere question. If you were raising a family would you continue to take them to one of these churches that openly embrace sin or would you "retreat" to a more orthodox one?
@@briansardinas1359 Zoomer, its going to be a pain when your daughter ( should you ever have one) Comes home from sunday school and tells you that the purple haired church lady sunday school teacher says that her best friend at sunday school is a divorced trans man is her best friend's mommy. Good luck. Good luck unwinding that and contradicting everything she will be taught every week. did not Jesus say if they won't hear your words kick the dust of their town off your feet?
I am an agnostic trying to learn a bit about religion. I have some questions to make: 1- Where in the Bible was specified that Homosexuality is sinful? 2 - What should a christian do if they find that a person isn't straight? I'm just curious, I have a "spiritual but not religious" mother who always told me that there isn't anything like condemnation of homosexuality in the Bible, but I just want to hear from a proper Christian.
Just like having sex with a girlfriend homosexuality is a sin because it falls under the umbrella of sex before marriage. The bible says sex is lust unless it happens between a husband his wife and a wife and her husband. Christians are to do nothing except pray for the person because at the end of the day every human is a sinner whether it be a luster, a liar, a thief, a hypocrite or even a heretic. No human is perfect except Jesus as he was the living incarnation of the invisible god. The condemnation of homosexuality in the bible comes from a old testament verse specific to a time period (Ancient Israel) and only for ancient Israel since it falls under Mosaic law which isn't really translatable properly because its from ancient Semetic Hebrew being translated to a downgraded version of Latin (English) but it basically says that if a man is found to have had sex with a max like he would to a woman he should be put to death, the problem is the entire chapter is full of stuff like this and they all use the same word which is basically a one sided word for intercourse which is actually translated as rape several times and the idea of it being forceful lines up with the Mosaic law Moses established where sexual assault is punishable by death
Absolutely shameful. Failure to follow Christ leads to nilihism for the church. We don't need to continually bow to people who love sin and gulit-trip us into accepting it so we can gain members.
Cowards? Really? I'll pass on the heresy of liberal theology, thanks. The Church is made of people, not the brick and mortar of beautiful old architecture and the glory of what used to be. I commend your passion; your courage for going down with a sinking ship, but you sling way too many unnecessary insults at good Christians who simple don't fit within your narrow perspective of how to best serve God.
I'm inclined to agree that conservative mainline congregations should disaffiliate themselves from mainline denominations where heresy or grave error is preached, but I'm not a mainliner in the first place. I think there's enough foundation to his argument that mainline conservatives should do some soul-searching about it, and about the possibility of cowardice, but my view is that for many/most the result of that soul-searching will be "it's time to leave".
@@JonBrase Well said. My mom has been a member of her local Methodist church for nearly 70 years. To see the church, she loves go down this path breaks her heart. She lives in a small rural community, mostly conservative, but things are changing. Her line in the sand is if the pastor starts pushing and preaching this new agenda, if so, she'll have a tough decision to make. One thing is certain though, no matter what she decides, the Lord knows she's no coward and that's all that really matters.
@@JonBrase Yeah if the majority affirms (and may well eventually try to force) their liberal and sinful views on the conservatives then there is no choice but to leave.
Thank you for these. As a Southern Baptist, I’m seeing a push to move our denomination leftward again. I’m thankful for the faithful brethren who are fighting this. While I’m not Methodist, my MIL is. Her church is one of the ones that left the UMC to become independent (they’re a rural church which runs about 15 attendees per week at most). Their reasoning was based heavily on O’Sullivan’s law. When they saw the other churches leaving, knowing they didn’t matter enough to have representation at the district level much less the denominational one, they elected to leave the UMC knowing this was about to happen. What does one do when a member of a faithful congregation that’s too small to even influence the denomination at the local level? While a member of UMC, they had to share their pastor with 3 other churches due to their size; these pastors were always either seminarians or retirees and almost always liberal theologically - the one who wasn’t was actually a retired Southern Baptist because no one else was willing at the time to pastor these churches- especially since the other 3 churches were liberal among their congregation.
@@Protestant_Paladin440 If it was the true Church then the gates of hell would not have prevailed against it. This just shows that it is a false church
The UMC was not enforcing violations since 2016. The churches that left realized this. They saw the writing on the wall. If they had stayed, the changes would still have happened, and they would have been forced to stay in the UMC. The deadline to leave was before the general conference. Host: To paint this action as possible, simply because the conservative theological churches left the UMC is looking at this too simplistically - not factual.
Global Methodist Church. Also known as Operation Deconquista.
I thought the Global Methodist church is who left the UMC, or just the ones that stand opposite of the UMC
@@RW-zh7kl The answer is yes. I expect they will follow the UMC in a few years because they are not going to stand really hard and fast about it.
@@redink71that is a clueless comment . . . they took the money and talent with them.
They may still be egalitarian though, meaning it’s just a matter of time…
@@RW-zh7kl2:07
Affirming same sex marriage in the church is . . . Kinda gay
and denying same sex maqrriage is kinda homophobic and judemental
@@reptile1687the Bible says clearly to have righteous judgement meaning we should be able to know something is a sin and make rules so the church can stay away from sin. You may believe it’s judgmental but if you think our “judgement” is bad you are NOT ready for the judgement of God.
You have accepted the sinner as we should but you have also accepted the sin which Jesus never did. Praying for you to believe in the truth.
@@braedanmitchell3794 the bible also says let those whon have not sinned throw the first stone, and since the bible says we all are born in sin, none of us have never sinned, so you cant cast judement on sinners when you yourself haved sinned bjust by being born
@@braedanmitchell3794 and how do you know what is the truth, there are hundred of different religions all over the world who would all tell me that theirs is the real truth, so why should i take yours over theirs?
@@braedanmitchell3794 also love the sinner, hate the sin was said by ghandi
Kind of disagree here. The Liberal wing (ironically) barred the African Methodists from voting the first time, through a technicality. They have recently barred Africa AND Asia from voting on American policies at all. The conservatives didn't run, they were politely asked to leave using the bylaws.
Racists.
Exactly. Instead of starting their own church where they could practice whatever they wanted they joined and slowly corrupted the Methodist church and pulled the “If you don’t like it, then leave.” to the conservative side. Not to mention those in positions of power either lacked the means or the spine to stop this nonsense long before it took hold. Those of us as conservatives had no way to remove these bad people from their power position. It’s a failure of the system as much as it’s a failure of those practicing the sin.
Not very progressive of them
The split happened before that.
@@MoonMoverGaming it was definitely discussed. But no the official involuntary exodus was in response the barring of the African Methodists. I would suggest checking your source, because mine was first hand.
This church is no longer a church it’s a self help organization.
Which is why we need to take it back for Jesus. Same with the PCUSA, and ELCA, and the Episcopal Church, and the CofE.
wasnt it always that?
And that's a bad thing why?
@@mcambell-sd4cn Because they no longer believe in Christianity.
Wow I thought the church was about helping people. I guess Christians aren’t good for that
hot take: Christ is awesome
Hot take: 2+2=4
Not a hot take
Hot take: water is refreshing
Better than being a lukewarm take. =)
Unironically, this is a hot take in today’s society.
The global Methodist church surrendered quicker than I commented
What?
Its almost like they are french
Yet you still weren't first, scam bot.
I don't agree. He says conservatives are cowardly for leaving. I wouldn't want to associate with a church body where almost half clearly don't read the bible. You don't bend scripture to fit the whims of modern society. It's very clear what Jesus and God thought of the institution of marriage. I'd just leave and start over again too. It's the opposite of cowardly.
And I thought this was going to be a France joke
It's not the church, it's the ungodly people who occupied the church. Christ's followers wouldn't go against God deliberately.
The people are the church
Peter
@@JesusisLord756exactly! 😂
I thought being kind was a Christian thing but guess not
Womp womp
@@BelBelle468 Being kind doesn't mean approving what's clearly a sin.
You are entirely wrong on this one. The conservatives won the issue regarding the book of discipline, but the progressives just ignored it. They continued to affirm SSM and LGBT clergy in spite of the book of discipline, all the way to the top. Conservatives weren't "uncaring" for their heritage, they didnt "give up", the very standards of the church became meaningless, there was no longer a point in fighting it.
As someone who’s been following the situation closely, I completely agree with you But one point of argument that could be made is if the conservative has the majority, Why didn’t they have the topics executives? And couldn’t they have waited until they got a chance to place some of their own at the top?
But again, I do agree with you. And let’s not forget shady, and Down, right disgraceful it was that They did not change the number of delegates from 2020 Just so they Could make sure that the mass exit would help the liberals
But that's not outrageous enough.
The stats prove it, the timeline proves it, basic logic proves it, but apparently we're just supposed to ignore that.
The heritage is the sane as Catholic, then Episcopal. Bigotry is wring.
@@ammsgod1764 - Conservatives wanted to grow churches and do missions and sometimes move up in leadership. The liberals lived to control processes. They took control of the seminaries generations ago, played politics, controlled agendas and conversation. Plus as a group we were like cats who refused to be herded.
@@user-lu9mf7wk7v Makes sense. I just think that there would have been a long hard thought way that conservatives could have taken control of the seminaries and leadership. With that being I would not have gone that route. I would have left and split also.
Catholic here, praying for all my Protestant brothers and sisters. Take heart! Matthew 10:22 “You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
Right on! I knew I wasn't the only Catholic that enjoyed Redeem Zoomer!
I'm a cradle Methodist and I just cannot strengthen a church preaching a false gospel. I'm going to visit both a Lutheran Missouri Synod congregation near me, and a Catholic. If those go against marriage which is essentially a sacrament, I will abandon them because I won't strengthen them. We're in deep trouble in general. I am 41 so I don't have 40 years to find out you can't kick out heretics as Redeemed Zoomer can. I need a solid church foundation for a family today, not in 20-50 years. If I drop dead, they need a church home that isn't gay.
@m.hendricks6325 there's at least 3 of us.
Amen! May God be with you my Catholic friend in Christ❤
@@m.hendricks6325Definitely not alone. Another Catholic here and I too enjoy Zoomer.
I think your characterization of the conservatives retreating after winning is a bit one-dimensional. Sure, the conservatives won that vote, and the book of rules remained unchanged. But the church organization failed to enforce their rules; a practicing homosexual could still be ordained because the UMC wouldn’t enforce their own rules.
So yeah, the conservatives won the vote, but they really didn’t win. The recent decision changes nothing in the UMC.
@@g.williams2047 Has nothing to do with that. The progressives just ignore anything not in their favor and most of those in power are either against or don't enforce traditional Christian values. There's no battle to even be fought. It's already over.
May the Lord save them from their sin.
And us from ours.
@@ZachareyQuintana-qi4td Amen.
Amen
Amen. I sin too and don’t want any priestly figure telling me my sins are ok. They should help me to sin no more and ask forgiveness
It's not that progressives don't take their faith seriously, it's that they find different aspects of it to be more meaningful and it is typically based on biblical evidence. To list one example, the word *arsenokoitai* which is typically attributed to homosexuality has several scholar disagreements on what it actually means. Check out the RSV translation of 1 Corinthians 6:9 if you don't believe me
More like the crystal methodist church
underrated comment
"Charles we need to cook"
"Sounds dope Mr. Wesley"
idk I haven't watched that show
"Pastor Heisenberg, we gotta preach the Blue Covered Book"
"Bless it, Jesse!"
Savage
Man can change his laws, but God's laws don't change no matter what man thinks
Amen
"Your word, Lord, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens." Psalms 119:89 NIV
Arsenokoitai has several scholar disagreements on what it means which is why there's a prevalence in people "moving toward" affirming gay people. I suggest you look into the historical context for same-sex acts back then because it was very different than nowadays. Also for an example of varying interpretations, check out 1 Corinthians 6:9 for one interpretation. Many of these interpretations existed before the word homosexual was added to the bible.
@@tobiasrieper8368 Jesus said: "From the beginning of creation, God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one flesh." He was talking about marriage, it's male and female. Aren't his words enough? Take the whole bible, gay marriage wasn't even something to consider whether it was right or wrong because that was more than obvious. Haven't you read when Paul in 1 Corinthians 5 mentions a guy who was sleeping with his dad's wife? Isn't the Bible clear enough? Jesus didn't condemn the women caught in adultery, but he said "Go and sin no more".
Apostasy
God’s Word is TRUTH… in 2008, I was a gay-identified man, in a committed, monogamous same-sex relationship, active in an affirming church, then found myself in an ICU where the medical team classified me clinically dead after a 22-minute flatline. I experienced death, judgement and hell. When I couldn’t take any more demonic torment, I cried out in repentance, “Jesus!” and I heard the Savior say, “I am here.” At that moment, I saw with my eyes the Wind of the Holy Spirit fill my ICU and with great power, He pick up Satan and the demonic and blew them out of the room. On that day, my life changed, the redemptive Blood of Jesus cleared my mind, and completely healed and restored every failing organ. Glory to God!
So you’re not gay anymore?
@@joleaneshmoleane8358 What do you think?
@@joleaneshmoleane8358 the Holy Spirit radically encountered the stronghold of perversion and delivered me. Glory to God!
@@CrossAndWindMinistries
Unless you are no longer gay, how do you know it's because of that?
....Damn yall really need to make better stories and propoganda pieces. Since the medical team classified you as dead, that means they did not bring you back(using the shocks). And we KNOW that the longest a heart has ever been "dead"(i.e flatlined) and came back is 4 minutes 20 seconds.
Bluntly speaking, if what you are saying is true you would have been a miracle that would have had WORLD fame in the news, and this would have 100% made it in the web. So if you were really dead for 22 minutes, it would have been published online, and since then it would have also been available on the net, which it is NOT
So stop lying
So our aim should be to preserve a dead denomination? Why is that battle so important? The heritage of Wesley survives outside of the UMC. The UMC is not the priority to keep afloat. the Gospel is the priority.
underrated comment. i would ask the same to the reconquista.
💯💯
Zoomer with all due respect, I think you're wrong about conservatives running away from the mainline churches. Conservatives are not able to get into positions with any sort of influence due to corruption at the upper leadership of the church; and are actively persecuted and driven out by the liberals in the denomination whenever they object. What options does a minister or a bishop have when their own denomination ousts them & their congregations for simply trying to hold the christian faith?
Great point!
Precisely. That is something Zoomer refuses to account for. If one side has all the power, they can easily remove any opposition before it rises up.
Good point. Conservatives winning all those votes had no practical effect. The Progressives simply ignored the policies and consolidated their power.
The plan of the Reconquista is to reinforce the conservative minorities so that they outlive the dying liberals. Eventually the conservatives will outlive the liberals and be able to retake the denomination.
No, that doesn't make sense. Can you not imagine a time where the upper leadership was not "corrupt" against the liberals? At some point they had all the cards stacked against them.
I like a lot of your takes and views but I think you're completely off the mark when it comes to the Methodist church specifically.
The conservatives won at the 2019 conference, but they lost when it actually came to enforcing what the conference ruled. The progressive faction of the church did what progressive do and ignored the conference's rulings. They did what progressive do and installed progressives in positions of power and then undermined the will of the vast majority of the people of the organization they're in.
The problem isn't that conservatives are cowardly, it's that they abide by rules, and it's hard to fight an enemy who won't abide by rules that you are bound to play by. Which is what this whole issue is about: when you actually follow what the bible says and submit to authority, you're in a disadvantage when people who don't believe in the Bible (e.g. progressives in church). Our church joined the Global Methodist Church, which let us keep our pastor, and our church, and all our resources, plus pay lower dues, plus stop giving money to the UMC. We did what we believed to be Biblically correct, and as a result, we're not supporting a secular organization larping as a church. It's not like you say, where we're now meeting in a strip mall. An average church goer at my church wouldn't know anything changed other than the vote we took.
Yeah you’re absolutely right. Zoomer is off base as an outsider looking in. Most churches that disaffiliated saw the writing on the wall and chose to get out while still maintaining their property, congregation, resources and homes, because that leniency is completely gone now. The NC bishops where I’m from have been especially bad and nasty about disaffiliating churches.
The ship was already sinking, the conservatives were basically given an ultimatum.
I had a front row seat to this watching my church trying to leave the denomination the last few years. You are 100% correct.
Yes. I like zoomer's reconquista project but there's a lot from this specific situation that he doesn't understand.
@@jacquedegatineau9037And apparently has no interest IN understanding. As to a lot of the commenters.
Maybe if we could have all acted in perfect unison, but that would be asking too much of real life Christians and churches.
In such circumstances running away from your problems is no different than surrendering to them. And those problems will come for you inevitably.
Hey, it’s the history dude! What’s up?
@@Ihni2000 The usual, pal. How’s it going for you?
Woah, the history dude is a christian as well. Nice!
@@MonsieurDean It’s going. I’ll admit I’m pretty burned out, looking forward to the summer.
Strange to see you here. God bless.
This is why I'm glad the Catholics define this as one of the sins that cry to heaven to vengeance. Yes, you'll get priests and bishops that vehemently fight this, but ultimately the church can never truly "affirm" sin.
Based
The advantages of Dogmas and Anathemas. The worst we can get is Fiducia allowing ambiguous blessings
@@igorlopes7589 I think you also have to remind yourself that this was in response to German bishops and giving an asthma would not help the situation only cause further division, but I do agree that the ambiguous messaging is something to be criticized. Fact the matter is sinners can be blessed, but that presupposes that they are in a repentance-state wanting to come back to the truth of sexuality.
@@user-ku1kz4gz8q Exactly, the only problem with Fiducia is that it doesn't say word for word that repentance and a commitement to chastity are needed for the blessing. The same issue with Amoris Laetitia, actually
W move by their church but they gotta get Francis outta there he’s going the way or elca and the Methodists here
As someone who has attended a methodist church that switched from UMC to GMC, there is one thing missing about this video, which is how methodists run their churches. Everything is run like an organization. Pastors are regularly swapped between churches at a methodist church, same with staff... Are you starting to see the problem? With UMC, if the higher ups are affirming of heresy, they will just throw out whoever disagrees with them, or move them constantly. The ruling never mattered. With GMC, pastors were able to stay at their churches and actually preach the Bible rather than politics and worldy views on sex and gender.
Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
yeah redeemed zoomer doesnt know anything, glad we agree
@@reptile1687dude why do you hate Zoomer
This time, m8, they clearly know what they are doing
Oh yes they do.
They're agents. They know exactly what they're subverting as they always do.
I was told to leave the UMC about 15 years ago because I said homosexuality is a sin. I suppose I could have stayed but the "pastor" had the final say. BTW, that "pastor" is now in the PCUSA..
Exactly. It is not "retreatism" if they already have all the power. The reason we keep losing is the fact we keep letting these infiltrators inside.
Homosexuality isn't a sin, and leverging it as one is bad because it has tangible negative impacts on real people. If you can't be an accepting, loving member of a community, that community has the right to ask you to leave.
@@rorybriscoe7769 Leviticus 20:13
God hates homosexuality so much that it is an abomination
Homosexuals will burn in hell if they do not repent
It is an abomination though.@rorybriscoe7769
@@rorybriscoe7769 You are incorrect.
Me and my family were asked to leave our United Methodist Church a few years ago because of this. They fired the best youth pastor I ever had for the same reason. It was either agree or be asked to leave/get fired.
They #Did u n ur Family a #HUGE favor 🎉
We pulled away from the UMC because at the time in 2019 the UMC was already set up for the progressives to win the vote, we only began to leave because if we did not take action after our vote had already been submitted on the issue, we would've be at the liberty of the denomination to take our church building away effectively starting us over from square one and we would have to gather wherever the Lord led us to until we got a new church building again. We and our pastor fought tooth and nail to try to overturn the vote within the denomination and our church even did a vote within the church itself once the progressives had won the vote and by a near unanimous vote being 1 against, we voted to secede from the denomination to follow in line with what the word of God says. We still love our brothers and sisters no matter if they are following a sinful path, but we will not remain in a denomination running full throttle into a woke/progressive future where they would have full legal authority to revoke our church from us at any point in time based on those same sinful views they voted into the denomination which are contrary to the word of God.
Are you a global Methodist now the conservative branch
@@annb9029 For now our church is nondenom until we decide what denomination we will join next. Originally we were considering the United Wesleyan Church, but I'm not sure what we are considering at this current moment.
@@annb9029 just a bit less liberal.
Hey Zoomer! I appreciate all of your videos, and this one hits home as the UMC church I grew up in split about a year ago due to this LGBT issue. It was very hard for a lot of churchgoers.
While I do wish that the conservative group had been able to stay and try to effect positive change, I just want to say I think this issue is a bit more nuanced than what you have shared in thie video.
For example, the church held a vote on whether to stay United Methodist or leave. Leaving got more votes because most churchgoers were traditionalists, but it did not meet a 2/3 majority, so the church remained a UMC. This prompted the split where conservative members left to start a new congregation. I would not be surprised if this happened in many different churches.
Also, the United Methodist leadership has the right to move pastors around to whatever church they wish, which could cause a conservative congregation to get a very liberal pastor with no say-so. IIRC, we also had a pastor who "left" the church (was forced to resign) due to disagreement on this issue.
As others have stated, the progressives in overall church leadership have taken over, which makes it extremely difficult for traditionalists to get a foothold in leadership positions to actually make changes.
Just wanted to add some extra context from personal experience. Perhaps the Young Methodists For Tradition will have success. I really appreciate the content you are putting out there Zoomer! Finding channels like yours has really helped me better understand theology and church history. God bless!
Heretics going to heretic. No surprise here.
homophobe being homophobic, no surprise there
Conservatives and Liberals are heretics on the same level
1 Corinthians 5:13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.” If God tells to expel the immoral believer, we need to leave a fellowship in which immoral are the majority and have control. Paul also said in 2 Corinthinians to not be unequally yoked, so we shouldn't be partnering with people who act live unbelievers.
One hard part about this is that Methodist pastors are moved periodically, and the individual churches don't get much say in who their next pastor will be.
You can always just switch which church you go to
Can confirm. My father was a professional United Methodist pastor for twelve years, and he was reassigned four times during that stretch.
hot take: ecclesiastical separatism is biblical.
Yes a Christian shouldn’t be in fellowship with pagans. It’s dangerous.
what verses you use to base your case ?
@@matheuscaneta1194 2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?
@@matheuscaneta1194 "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them;" (Ephesians 5:11). I don't really have time to give a long list and had no intentions on getting into a theological debate in the UA-cam comments section. If you want to see a defense of this position, then look up the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster on separatism.
Don't confuse politics with worship. Do not confuse my desiring to not be in fellowship with people that have differing beliefs with cowardice. Politically, conservatives need to grow a backbone.
They're called conservatives because they can only maintain or lose what they try to conserve lmfao, defeat is in the name
They were predestined to do that, Zoomer.
My family was kicked out of a UMC several years ago over the same issue. My parents now meet with 3 former members of the congregation at one of their houses for church every Sunday, one of my siblings attends a non-denominational church, and I attend an EPC church.
Soooooooo #WONDERFUL 🎉
God's word never changes. Those who desecrate the Church will come to regret it on Judgment Day. I pray they repent immediately.
AMEN AMEN AMEN 🎉💯
A good friend of mine, a former UMC pastor, left his position after they allowed in a gay bishop to lead the organization (I think in 2014 or so). He didn’t like the direction and left instead of pushing back, too. A downward spiral ever since.
yeah he's a retreatist
sounds like hes a bigot who wants to live in the past
@@reptile1687define "bigot"
@@TheVioletArmy a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
@@TheVioletArmy a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
such a simplification and misrepresentation of what happened. And I am not even a United Methodist
Staying in these heretical churches is dangerous to new believers and non believers. It gives the impression that you approve of the heretical teachings. In the amount of time it would take conservatives to reconquer these churches, countless people will have been deceived into thinking lgbtxyz lifestyles are compatible with Christianity. It's better to abandon these heretical churches and loudly declare them heretical. Other denominations need to loudly disown them and claim they are no longer Christian if they preach blasphemous and dangerous theology.
What should I do if I'm a trans girl and want to become a christian? I can't change that I'm trans, it already settled within me
@@Anonymous-zm8bn You can still be one, although some may consider it a sin. But we all have some sort of sin, no one is perfect.
@@Anonymous-zm8bn You actually can change it. First of theres no such thing as transgender. If you have XX chromosomes you are a woman regardless of what you call yourself or how you you dress and if you have XY chromosomes you are a man. Period. Let go of your delusion and repent and turn from your sins, which includes you lying and saying you are the opposite sex when you're not. That's how you become a Christian.
The problem was that the conservative won the vote , but the ruling was disregarded by rebellious clergy. They just kept on consecrating gay bishops. So conservatives had to leave, and separate.
While I'm all for trying to fight and save one's Church; there is also times when one should seek a better fit; as not all battles are winnable.
Now there needs to be a long game played, which the progressives have done for decades. I just don't see that coming about within many congregations, as there is a heavy handed push from many organizational structures.
I was once a methodist, but even before these latest events I had shifted away as it became more social than scriptural.
Key component of every denomination that's name starts with UNITED it's synonymous with PROGRESSIVE.
Most of those in Canada started celebrating ''same sex weddings'' the minute it became legal here in 2005.
Even the United church of Pakistan?
(Former) United Methodist here, went to church yesterday 5/5/24 and upon hearing the news, I knew it was my last service. I’m not anti lgbt but I do oppose political changes made to church doctrine. I worry about what they’ll do next so I’m not sticking around to find out.
You have to be anti-alphabet mafia in order to be Christian. You have to hate sin, but not people. Otherwise it is treating sin as joke, and what Jesus did as meaningless.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,”
It was already prophesied that many churches and believers would fall away from God, calling good evil and evil good. Don’t be deceived by clever arguments or by the coming anti-Christ’s signs and wonders, which will also be performed by the False Prophet. Remember that God promises his followers that the pain of tribulation will be nothing compared to the reward he gives to those who are faithful to Him and His son, Jesus Christ. God bless, Christ is King 👑
AMEN AMEN AMEN 🎉
Brave conservatives, bravely ran away!
They did the biblical thing, unlike Redeemed Zoomer here. You will be punished for having been in any kind of fellowship with such an organization. We are called to leave apostate dead denominations with their ecclesiastical darkness behind, whether we like it or not (and the UMC is dead, there is nothing left to save. It has been passed over to judgement long ago).
@@hilohilo9539true to an extent, during st maximos's time he and his folIowers were the only orthodox with the church yet they didnt schism.
@@hilohilo9539 If that’s not so called biblical way then why haven’t you told the Spanish & the Portuguese to give up when their land is under Muslim occupation for 800 years ?.
7600 congregations have left . . . many more want to but are stuck due to financial or administrative reasons . . . this will be the impetus for thousands more.
Actually many conservatives spent decades trying to bring renewal to the UMC. They did not cut and run at the first challenge.
Come join the catholics, brothers. Let's stick to reforming a single church.
For as much as you give flack to Nondenoms (such as my church and I can send links if you'd like) are growing and fostering great communities. I don't know why you have such disdain for other styles in the "big C" Church at large. Is it not just as good to spread the gospel (so long as it's true and not heretical) no matter which music/hymns are sung, or the architecture, or the dress code?
And maybe (almost certainly) this is an outlier, but my Nondenom church was founded in the 1830s, so the argument of "they don't have staying power" I don't see playing out. As of post-covid, we have record baptisms and growth across the board on levels we haven't seen in decades, even when we've stood firm talking about transformers, LGTV community, Israel, Sex & Dating, etc.
What'd Israel do to you specifically?
what were they in 1830? Non doms are marketing. nothing more.
75% of the time, non denominationals are just Independent Baptists.
I'm not a Methodist but I have family members who are in the Methodist church. From what I understand, the time to fight for conservatives was years ago. Even though they won the vote back in 2019, most positions in authority we're occupied by liberals who refused to acknowledge the vote. The conservatives left because they couldn't really do anything and if they stayed, then the liberals would make it hard for them to leave. I know you think that they needed to fight in 2019. I'm curious to hear your opinions on how they would have been able to do that. Thoughts?
God is showing the tares among the wheat , exposing the churches to his true sheep.
@@beachgirl5316AMEN AMEN, Sister 🎉
@@beachgirl5316Been saying it for a few years now, while the secular views the church as “declining”, I see a beautiful refinement of Gods true church and elect in the West that will be brighter than ever before after it!
@@AlignWithJesus amen , praise Jesus
There's a Methodist in the madness.
Somewhere, John and Charles Wesley are weeping.
The UMC is full of woke culture 😢
Zoomer, you have been calling conservatives who left their denominations cowards. What did conservatives who stayed do for the last 80+ years? Most conservatives and conservative churches stayed and now they have become problems...not reformers.
Seems that conservatives who left are doing better than those who stayed in. Still calling them cowards?
He wants to save the institutions, which isn’t bad per se. However, he is way too willing to fellowship with very suspect people. When an organization shows such blatant disregard for the Bible, one should consider the spiritual health of his family and get them out of there, not for his own sake but so that the souls of the weaker are not damned because you were trying to saved buildings and ignoring the heresies they were absorbing.
@@g.williams2047 I agree. I like Zoomer and his efforts, however, it is too late for PCUSA and his approach is too "pansy". Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) conservatives were able to retake the denomination because they were able to nip liberals early, but more importantly they went HARD.
These are the actions SBC conservatives (only took like 6 or 7 pastors and they went in blazing) took.
First, they took back the seminaries.
o They convinced major donors and board to support them
o They fired all professors who would not subscribe to the inerrancy of the bible
o All professors who will not teach Reformed Baptist confessions (Calvinistic) were fired
o Informed female seminary students that SBC seminaries will NOT support them to be pastors
Churches
o Told all female pastor led churches that they cannot be part
o Affirmed the male and female relationships and no gay pastors
Confessions
o Added in the SBC Statement of Faith that women cannot be pastors
o Inerrancy of the bible is a must
They were will be take the loss. About 20-25% of the churches left, but the remain SBC grew three times within 10 years.
Those who left formed another denomination and they are championing LGBTQ causes now when they were warned that they are headed that way before the split.
Zoomers passive and pansy way will NEVER work.
@@g.williams2047 Exactly, by fellowshipping in that way with people who are clearly going against the Bible you are tacitly endorsing the behavior.
@@pcdeltalink036 It's a very dangerous path to go down. The staring into the abyss cliché is definitely applicable.
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son of daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:24-37)
The Church Visible is not exempt from this. Christendom, the Household of Faith, does not magically avoid the consequences of this warning from Christ himself. This is exactly the kind of thing this passage is talking about, and why I fundamentally disagree with the idea of 'blaming' the Faithful who part ways with the heretic and the apostate for why denominations are falling to heresy and apostacy.
It is not the faithful who flee from the face of evil that are to blame, but the failure of Church Discipline that these ideas were not expelled from these denominations. It is a failure of the men called to be Shepherds, under the Great Shepherd. And when the supposed Shepherd is leading the flock astray, it is in the best interest of the Flock to find a faithful and true Shepherd.
"Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night." (Psalm 1:1-2)
"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols?" (2 Corinthians 6:14-16a)
If we are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers in our home lives, how much less should we tolerate ourselves to be so in our Churches? The Apostles warn throughout the New Testament to have nothing to do with those who teach what is contrary to Word of God, especially when it is in the guise of being 'righteous', in very firm and uncompromising terms. And if those in error refuse to listen to correction, and the Faithful have not the authority to cast them out from their midst, or worse, are subject to their authority, then there is no guilt or shame in removing yourself from under that authority.
"If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it our and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell." (Matthew 5:29-30)
If this hard teaching of Christ applies to our bodies as individuals, how much more so does it apply to the body of the Church Invisible? For there is no special holiness in a great earthly lineage of church buildings or historic institutions. These are the product of man, and as subject to corruption and sin as any other institution. And we see this in places like the UMC, where the rot was not cast out, where the shepherds went astray with their flocks.
Christ promised to preserve his Church and his Word. He did not promise to preserve the man-made organizations associated with his Church, or spare them from the consequences of our fallen nature. "Ecclesia Semper Reformanda" is not a call to cling to historic legacies, institutions, traditions, or buildings; but a call to stay faithful to the Law and Gospel, in the form the Scriptures teach us.
Great point!
AMEN AMEN AMEN 🎉🎉🎉
@@SantaFe19484💯💯💯💯💯💯💯
I actually think that Americans when shit hits the fan, will not bother to use their weapons to fight.
This is just facts
Muh persecution fetish
Nice self report.
It is one thing to give the other cheek, but blasphemy requires correction.
I think at some point you have to shake the dust from your feet and leave them to God's judgement, it is not possible to save everyone for the kingdom, we must keep going forward. Run the race brothers and sisters.
They affirm gay marriage because the word arsenokoitai, the word commonly attributed to homosexuality by evangelicals, doesn't have a clear set in stone meaning. It's been a topic of debate by many scholars. Check out 1 Corinthians 6:9 RSV for an example of one interpretation of it. There's more to it but that's a summary
@@tobiasrieper8368 I know the arguments over the word, my conscience has also been created by God, and the concept that homosexuality or other sexual perversion is at all acceptable to a God who created both man and woman (because man was lonely) is personally disgusting and undeniably existentially perverted. I am convinced that anybody who argues from the theologically liberal side to this has cursed the Spirit and is eternally damned. So be it.
@@tobiasrieper8368 I don't know a single person with a decent head on their shoulders who somehow reads any ambiguity on whether or not homosexuality is affirmed. It is beyond clear from multiple places in scripture that it is sin.
@@pcdeltalink036 First of all, humongous ad-hominem. Secondly, I responded to something similar in another comment so I'll re-paste it here:
The word malakoi is a word that translates "soft" or "mentally weak." In the ancient world, it was commonly used to describe the effeminancy of boys who allowed themselves to be used for gay practice. Gay sex back then was about power and dominance, which explains why it would be condemned. There was no concept of modern sexual orientation back then and it had no influence on the text since it wasn't even thought up yet and also why the modern condemnation of homosexuality is, as you said, recent. Here are various examples of 1 Corinthians 6:9 translations to give you an idea:
RSV: *"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts"*
NRSV: *"Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes,[a] men who engage in illicit sex[b]"*
Erasmus 2nd Edition (Martin Luther's Bible): *"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Don't let yourself be seduced! Neither the fornicators, nor the idolaters, nor the adulterers, nor the sissies, nor the molesters"*
[a] and [b]: Meaning of Greek uncertain (Source: BibleGateway.com)
Source for Erasmus original German translation: textus-receptus.com/wiki/1_Corinthians_6:9#German
These are just a few examples, and it's written right there in the footnotes that the Greek meaning is uncertain. Something that we don't know the exact meaning of cannot be preached as irrefutable doctrine.
While I am no longer part of the SDA church, they taught about from a Historicist perspective on the 7 churches of Revelation. We’re in the midst of Laodicea, AKA “Neither Hot nor Cold.”
Many Conservative churches preach Principle with no love, and many Liberal churches preach love with no principle. We are no longer hot nor cold; we are lukewarm.
We are fulfilling prophecy. We’re close to the end. Stick it out, Brethren.
Why did you leave?
@@aaron5508 update: Still part of the church. Decided not to leave just yet.
@@funtimefreddy4204 thanks for taking the time to respond. Hope it works out. I was just interested because the Adventists have many Intriguing views.
Will the UMC outlaw the Old Testament story about Sodom and Gomorrah?
Lol
No they will just never mention any kind of Sin, or redemption, or sanctification, or grace. And they are going to have to use a new bible.
Gotta say I don’t like the thumbnail. Ran away? No, we left a doomed denomination that follows the ways of the world and decides the Bible can change based on what is popular or current. We saw the writing on the wall at the last general conference when conservative views were just barely upheld by a mere handful of votes. 97% of my church voted to leave Methodism and the increasingly sinful views they uphold.
They were talking about splitting in 2002 before I left the church and the ministry program. I'm honestly surprised it's taken this long.
Instead of forcing every church, they could have left it up to the local church.
Its great how people in the comments are justifying the Methodists decision by quoting scripture "Jesus says to love us, judge not, etc." But also dont seem to remember that even the devil quoted scriptures to make his argument...
So, either we discard all scripture, or we use the scripture in conjunction with the historical and literary context in order to not be deceived by Satan. And in the literary context, the word used by Leviticus that is often translated into English as homosexual activity is miškevē, which is only other used in Genesis 49:4 (making it a hapax legomenon), which deals with homosexual incestuous behavior. Therefore, it makes the most sense to take this scripture, in combination with other scripture about loving one another from the Lord God Jesus Christ, to be able to complete the picture of how the Bible treats homosexuality. The Bible is very open to interpretation, so it can be hard to figure the entire picture out.
Of course, and it's easy to twist Scripture to make it fit your worldview. My point was just that people love when the Holy Bible says "Judge not" but always seem to forget the parts where it says "Sin not".
@@m.hendricks6325 of course, you ignore my explanation on how the Bible has deep context and you jump straight back to me 'twisting scripture'. i told you, this isn't a sin, i just gave an explanation as to why.
So sad. Churches can leave but the UMC claims ownership of their church buildings, personages etc even though the UMC has contributed absolutely nothing in the construction and maintenance of the buildings. Will wind up costing a lot of money to leave. Lots of the members have been attending services within their walls for many generations and are centers of their communities. Of course the conference doesn’t care.
When I read about this on the news, I immediately thought of all the stuff you said in your videos about this exact thing. You were right all along.
Didn't Martin Luther and John Calvin retreat from a church?
Nope, Luther was excomungated and persecuted by Rome. Need to study more.
No, the church outcasted Luther, he wanted to help "fix" the Catholic Church but was then basically kicked out.
@@pedroguimaraes6094..after he retreated from the church and caused a revolution. Luther didn't want to cause a revolt, but he did.
@@Xyntelvidsafter he tried it.
Luther was kicked out, Calvin retreated.
I understand your sentiment, and do not necessarily disagree with it. However, I think many conservatives are not merely single men and women, and don't want their children/families growing up in a household who says 'this is how the church should be, and what they believe' while going to a denomination that has completely flips that. Many conservatives are simply trying to find the best church, who offers real bread, to feed their families with - if the congregation they attend doesn't provide bread - why would they stay and risk the development of their families?
I went to United Methodist when growing up (not super consistently but we went somewhat regularly, did Sunday school for couple years) but haven't been to church in many years. Been wanting to go back and was just thinking about trying the United Methodist church that's close to me, but ehhhhhh... maybe not. I am not interested in any progressive BS.
Think it's worth just going anyway and seeing how that particular church is?
Definitively! It might be one of the many conservative churches left in the denomination
Probably worth it.
You can find conservatives in liberal denominations and liberals in conservative denominations.
Yes because it's good to get an all around understanding of why people believe what they believe. If you get the chance, ask them why they believe that their interpretation is biblically correct and see how they reply
RZ quick question but let's say I'm writing a paper on Project Reconquista. Do I need to contact you in any shape or form for this or can I just like do it? It's not an in-depth paper, just maybe a section or two.
I know in the nondenom video I may have come out a bit aggressive but that was never the intention.
To the OP... bro, the GMC saw where it was all going, and they were right. The general conference had a thing where they were introducing themselves with their pronouns.
You can not win an argument with stupidity. They bowed out... and good on them.
How do you become part of a church denomination that is liberal while also not supporting their libertalism? Like, join a conservative parish? I've always been part of a non denominational church since attending church regularly again, so I am completely ignorant of the politics involved.
Depends on the denomination involved, but yes, join a conservative congregation.
Umc controlled who was the pastor. So they could tank a conservative "parish" by flooding it with liberal leadership until the conservatives and conservative leaning just pick up and leave.
Wesley would be disgusted
You can't stop people from believing what they want to believe. If the majority wants to be wrong, and you loudly disagree with them, the only thing you will accomplish is to be called a bigot.
Then take it as a compliment.
I was looking at the Operation Reconquista map. I am from Canada (east of Toronto along the lake) and wanted to look at churches on your list. I noticed there are only Presbyterian and Anglican Churches but none around where I live, even though there are both of those types of churches nearby. Correct me if I'm wrong but surely those two aren't the only denominations or specific churches that are true to the gospel??
To say that they are the only two true denominations is wrong. All main Protestant churches are good. I’m personally very militantly against the paganism of Rome and the Eastern church this I would not join either of them.
@@g.williams2047Your "church" is quite literally a bastardized byproduct of the Roman "pagan" Church.
Well shit, glad our church left the UMC when it did.
Edit: Wesley is violently convulsing in his grave as we speak.
Conservative Methodists oughta just rejoin the Anglican church. It's the best thing for unity, and it's what Wesley himself would've wanted. Im sure the ACNA or something like it would accept the methodist churches
Yes, and the Anglican Church should just rejoin the Catholics.
Or just become Southern Baptists ;)
@@zacharysilver911 then the roman catholics should just rejoin the orthodox, simple as
Global Methodist church is the conservative branch
Anglicans just confirmed Gay clergy. So no help there. The archbishop of canturbury now leads a minority of Anglicans.
I am UMC. The Centrists and Progressives joined together to do God's will in loving All! This was the best conference we have had for a long time.
But what actually is the benefit of staying in the organisation after they become liberal? Why not move to a conservative one instead
How is TULIP compatible with the Ontological argument, as there must be a greates way of treating someone which means treating everyone the same, so either universalism, universal damnation, or arminian soteriology?
TULIP's not real
Universalism is incompatible with the Ontological Argument, because a God who punishes evil is greater than a God who does not. A God who has mercy is greater than a God who does not. How do you reconcile these? The Incarnation of Christ. He is punished on behalf of the faithful. That way, no sin goes unpunished.
A God who controls everything that is good is greater than a God who does not control everything that is good. That means that all virtue and goodness is credited to God, and none else.
@@Protestant_Paladin440very well said
Why isn't leaving the exact thing a faithful Christian should do? Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth. If this is the case, then either same-sex marriage is true and conservatives need to change or the UMC was never the Church at all.
Exactly
no, that doesn't make sense. Suppose the entire leadership changed their mind and voted conservative, that would then restore the truth. So just because it was voted for at this current time doesn't make it the "true" definite truth, therefore your reasoning doesn't hold up.
@@onleynin The point is that the Church can't fall into this sort of error. So either this is a legitimate development of doctrine and conservatives need to get on board or this is a grave error and the whole thing was rotten from the start.
@@jdotoz sure it can, have you read anything paul wrote?
@@onleynin Show me.
PREACH! And in every facet of society, especially society and politics. Always observed this but could never articulate it. Well done.
Straightest Methodist church
Although raised Methodist I no longer consider myself such. I am still Wesleyan and will forever hold the early Methodist church in very high regard.
Then technically, you’re still a Methodist lol. Actually read the bible and become Reformed
@@hydra8845OK, but the bible doesn't affirm calvanism.
Are you global Methodist now
@@annb9029 I moved 2 years ago and after some church shopping now attended a Congregationalist church
@@dewaldt8104 Its odd that the UMC is called protestant. They have no role in it. Nothing to do with Luther, calvin or any of the goofy solas, It roots are catholic anglicism. No part with Luther et al. No idea why they allowed themselves to be associated with it.
Based Africa
I have a question I think I've been getting lukewarm or backslidden. For the past month What's your advice on getting out of this state And really getting on fire for God
Sometimes it's hard for me To read my bible Or talk to God Because when I mess up or sin I just feel like I can't talk to him about it
And I just dig myself into a hole
I have the same problem quite often, you just got to remember that at the end of the day, we are all sinners, and we got to get back up and try again, God is ever forgiving and never turns away those who seek him.
You already have the answer, communicate with God through prayer, and read His Word. It sounds like you want a way to persevere. Practice what you already know to be true. You are in a spiritual battle. Tell yourself the truth. Read the Bible as if you're curious about what's in it. The Spirit helps. You might not feel on fire at first. Tell Him you want Christ with no pre conception of how your life unfolds. You are building a relationship with Christ. Congratulations !🙏
Try to surround yourself with people who are strong in their faith. This has helped me in the past when I've struggled.
Go visit an Orthodox liturgy.
If you feel like this need to be "on fire for god" is causing you stress, maybe take a break from religion. Focus on the other things in your life until you feel better.
Or just go talk to a therapist.
I'll try to be braver from now on, thanks for the video
In the beginning there was the word... Not the church
The definition of a reprobate mind now has a photo of UMC next to it. Sad but a bit funny - next they will publish their own bible.
Conservative Catholicism in America is gaining ground every day. Not all Christianity in the USA is collapsing into progressive unorthodoxy.
And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous...
yeah the sin was rape and hostility towards outsiders, the two angels being disguised as men made no difference as the same wouldve happened if the angels were disguised as women
@@reptile1687but the men rejected Lot’s daughters, if they wanted to, they would have taken Lots Daughters instead. but they did not. They instead insisted on having sex with the angels. This homosexuality was a part of their sins.
Are you sure the sin in question was homosexuality or rather *the violation of sacred hospitality*, something that was considered the ultimate evil in the ancient world? Remember Lot offered one of his own daughters to suffer instead of himself. It was only in light of this that Mosaic Law prohibited "laying with men as with women", something you seemed to view as sacrosanct. They essentially confused homosexual SA with homosexuality as a whole. Hence, every homosexual (and by extention every non-straight person) to date needlessly suffered for the actions of a few. That is not just.
Let me say it again, the crime was rape and violation of sacred hospitality, not merely "being gay."
That said though, there are examples of true sodomy in the world. Men who actually force themselves on other men deserve your derision, not men who fall in love with each other and want to live happy lives together.
Remember, Jesus worked with people the Pharisees considered unclean, like prostitutes, lepers, criminals and tax payers... of all things.
Should we deny gay people salvation and forgiveness simply because they are gay - or, by extention, denying X people salvation and forgiveness simply because they are X?
@@PetroBeherha I appreciate you responding, so let me answer.
1. Yes and No, though you are correct in the view of hospitality, the lord still punishes homosexuality. In Leviticus 20:13 both men are punished for the sin of homosexuality. If it was just standerd old rape, it would make no sense to punish the rape victim as well, especially sense, by the logic of the story of Sodom and Ghommorah, God is clearly shown punishing those who rape. Even by Old Testament standards, punishing the victim as well is cruel.
This is also the case with 1st Corinthians 6:9, where people argue that Paul is talking about boy sec slaves and their rapists, if that was the case, that is horrible. Imagine being used for some old man’s pleasure as a CHILD, and being damned to hell.
No
God punishes those who indulge I their own desires and pleasures, this also involves gay couples as well, as much as that may hurt to hear. There are many examples of Christians who have gay thoughts, but do not indulge in them. They can often be found in the comments of videos that discuss this topic. If you have the time I would try to find a “Gay-Celibate Christian”, as I might try to do myself.
And you are correct that Jesus hung around the poor and the sinners, but they repented of their ways and left changed. Jesus healed the sick, both physically, and spiritually.
I hope that answers your questions. Thanks for the discussion.
Edit: and to add to your last question, WE cannot deny salvation to anyone, unless we lead them from the faith, or hide the gift of salvation from them. None are truly denied salvation. Though neither I, nor you, or anyone truly deserve salvation, all need it, and it is open to all, including gay people, including drug addicts and porn addicts and alcoholics, murderers, adulterers and including me and You. But we must produce works according to salvation, which means rejecting our former passions and desires. This is not easy, I struggle with this as any other Christian does, but ultimately we have comfort In our lord and savior Jesus Christ, through whom we are forgiven.
@@PetroBeherha When Jesus forgave He said "go and sin no more". Do you think that would fly in these times?
It's not even a church at this point it's just a demonic congregation. I pray for these people. "Father, Forgive them. They don't know what they're doing."- Luke 23:34.
This is where every Protestant church that isn’t low church is going towards unfortunately
Congregation jumpscare
Arsenokoitai has several scholar disagreements on what it means which is why there's a prevalence in people "moving toward" affirming gay people. I suggest you look into the historical context for same-sex acts back then because it was very different than nowadays. Also for an example of varying interpretations, check out 1 Corinthians 6:9 for one interpretation. Many of these interpretations existed before the word homosexual was added to the bible. There's quite a few other reasonings, but you just attributing it to demonic influence is purely ad-hominem and plainly not a good way to approach disagreement
AMEN AMEN AMEN, Brother 🎉
@@KM-oy5yh I’m a man but amen 👍
We dont have time to "fight back". If a church turns against God, we leave and join another with biblical values. Nothing to do with retreat. You cant just waste years fighting against a clear majority just let them have it and move on
it literally is retreatism tho
@@redeemedzoomer6053"Retreating" from what? Pointless titles and organizations made by man? If you "win" your battle then God gains nothing. No more people are going to be saved because of it. In fact, you could argue that fewer would end up saved because the effort you spent trying to "win" that battle could have instead been spent on preaching the gospel to people.
Hey, Redeemed, tell me about the Alamo again? They didn't retreat, but I don't remember them winning.
@redeemedzoomer6053 sincere question. If you were raising a family would you continue to take them to one of these churches that openly embrace sin or would you "retreat" to a more orthodox one?
@@briansardinas1359 Zoomer, its going to be a pain when your daughter ( should you ever have one) Comes home from sunday school and tells you that the purple haired church lady sunday school teacher says that her best friend at sunday school is a divorced trans man is her best friend's mommy. Good luck. Good luck unwinding that and contradicting everything she will be taught every week.
did not Jesus say if they won't hear your words kick the dust of their town off your feet?
In the GMC's defense, they did only win the vote by just over 50 percent.
I am an agnostic trying to learn a bit about religion. I have some questions to make:
1- Where in the Bible was specified that Homosexuality is sinful?
2 - What should a christian do if they find that a person isn't straight?
I'm just curious, I have a "spiritual but not religious" mother who always told me that there isn't anything like condemnation of homosexuality in the Bible, but I just want to hear from a proper Christian.
Just like having sex with a girlfriend homosexuality is a sin because it falls under the umbrella of sex before marriage. The bible says sex is lust unless it happens between a husband his wife and a wife and her husband. Christians are to do nothing except pray for the person because at the end of the day every human is a sinner whether it be a luster, a liar, a thief, a hypocrite or even a heretic. No human is perfect except Jesus as he was the living incarnation of the invisible god.
The condemnation of homosexuality in the bible comes from a old testament verse specific to a time period (Ancient Israel) and only for ancient Israel since it falls under Mosaic law which isn't really translatable properly because its from ancient Semetic Hebrew being translated to a downgraded version of Latin (English) but it basically says that if a man is found to have had sex with a max like he would to a woman he should be put to death, the problem is the entire chapter is full of stuff like this and they all use the same word which is basically a one sided word for intercourse which is actually translated as rape several times and the idea of it being forceful lines up with the Mosaic law Moses established where sexual assault is punishable by death
So would it be correct to say the church has gone apostate? Not the people persay, but the organization itself?
That would make any reformation apostate
Anathema. Let them be under God's curse then.
Its not necessarily a political battle but a spiritual one.
Church is supposed to be for EVERYONE!
It is. As the old saying goes, "God loves you as you are, but He loves you too much to let you stay that way."
Absolutely shameful. Failure to follow Christ leads to nilihism for the church. We don't need to continually bow to people who love sin and gulit-trip us into accepting it so we can gain members.
Look at the timeline. This "cut and run" narrative is GREAT for outrage....it's just lacking in accuracy....and proximity to reality.
"Who guilt-trip us into accepting sin" That's exactly what they do! I've never seen it better said.
Cowards? Really? I'll pass on the heresy of liberal theology, thanks. The Church is made of people, not the brick and mortar of beautiful old architecture and the glory of what used to be. I commend your passion; your courage for going down with a sinking ship, but you sling way too many unnecessary insults at good Christians who simple don't fit within your narrow perspective of how to best serve God.
I'm inclined to agree that conservative mainline congregations should disaffiliate themselves from mainline denominations where heresy or grave error is preached, but I'm not a mainliner in the first place. I think there's enough foundation to his argument that mainline conservatives should do some soul-searching about it, and about the possibility of cowardice, but my view is that for many/most the result of that soul-searching will be "it's time to leave".
@@JonBrase Well said. My mom has been a member of her local Methodist church for nearly 70 years. To see the church, she loves go down this path breaks her heart. She lives in a small rural community, mostly conservative, but things are changing. Her line in the sand is if the pastor starts pushing and preaching this new agenda, if so, she'll have a tough decision to make. One thing is certain though, no matter what she decides, the Lord knows she's no coward and that's all that really matters.
@@JonBrase Yeah if the majority affirms (and may well eventually try to force) their liberal and sinful views on the conservatives then there is no choice but to leave.
Guys i am a free methodist now, i cannot do this anymore i have tried.
Thank you for these. As a Southern Baptist, I’m seeing a push to move our denomination leftward again. I’m thankful for the faithful brethren who are fighting this.
While I’m not Methodist, my MIL is. Her church is one of the ones that left the UMC to become independent (they’re a rural church which runs about 15 attendees per week at most). Their reasoning was based heavily on O’Sullivan’s law. When they saw the other churches leaving, knowing they didn’t matter enough to have representation at the district level much less the denominational one, they elected to leave the UMC knowing this was about to happen. What does one do when a member of a faithful congregation that’s too small to even influence the denomination at the local level? While a member of UMC, they had to share their pastor with 3 other churches due to their size; these pastors were always either seminarians or retirees and almost always liberal theologically - the one who wasn’t was actually a retired Southern Baptist because no one else was willing at the time to pastor these churches- especially since the other 3 churches were liberal among their congregation.
Is there an Episcopal branch/website?
yes www.episcopalrenewal.org/
@@redeemedzoomer6053 How about Baptist and Lutheran?
@@redeemedzoomer6053 What are all the Denomination Websites?
Or maybe convert to the one true church! 🇻🇦✝️
No. We need to heal the sickness of our Church, we need to reform!
@@Protestant_Paladin440 reform again and again until the end of times , that seems to be how you guys roll
@@Protestant_Paladin440 If it was the true Church then the gates of hell would not have prevailed against it. This just shows that it is a false church
@@alfredusmagnus dude hell isnt real, you guys are the only ones who want to believe its real
@@reptile1687 Hell isn't real according to whom? 16th century heretics?
The UMC was not enforcing violations since 2016. The churches that left realized this. They saw the writing on the wall. If they had stayed, the changes would still have happened, and they would have been forced to stay in the UMC. The deadline to leave was before the general conference. Host: To paint this action as possible, simply because the conservative theological churches left the UMC is looking at this too simplistically - not factual.
Who is surprised😂😂😂😂