inb4 all the cognitive load jokes. To anyone wondering about the weird misinformation statement: UA-cam is just as confused as I am. Apparently, it's not something that can just be easily removed (?) and needs to be escalated for someone to look into it. It does seem to be a mistake. I don't say anything that contradicts the misinformation statement and only mention climate change in a list of things that contribute to cognitive load. Maybe Google's AI is a Malenia stan. Who knows. To all the Malenia lovers: You're valid. I'm sure there are lots of ways I could have optimised to make the fight more interactive. I didn't use guides on this one so that I could learn strictly through trial and error and maybe I would have enjoyed it more if I hadn't done so. But I've fought a lot of fights in much the same way and, for me, she doesn't rank among the best. She's not the worst but I've fought her more than any other boss in the game and... I still don't like her. It definitely has a lot to do with how the fight gels with my playstyle more than anything else but I had to be honest about my experience. To all the science nerds: For some reason during the section where I talk about long-term potentiation, I say "When we process information that fires a chemical reaction and neurons zip along our synapses". This is very wrong and I don't know how this made it into the edit because it's not what I wrote in the script. I must have had a big brain fart when recording this and not noticed until just now after uploading it. This is gonna keep me awake for a month. It is not the neurons that zip along our synapses. It is the information. The synapses work as a bridge between neurons and connect them. They are on either side of the "highway". My script says: "When we process information, that fires a chemical reaction IN OUR neurons and that zips along our synapses." This is a very simplistic explanation of a very complicated process and it was meant to provide some brief context of what is happening at a biopsychological level. Biopsychology isn't really my strength but I know better than to say neurons zip along synapses. That's like saying New York travels over the bridge to New Jersey. It's a silly thing to say. Please, please don't use this video to help you with your neuroscience paper. You will be laughed out of the room. At the end of the day, the biopsychological processes are only discussed to demonstrate the neuroscience of learning, and why repetition helps us learn. For the vast majority of people, this slip-up isn't going to matter but it's still incorrect so I wanted to let you know. Thanks for watching the video. Much love. Gred
For my pedagogy degree I had to study and write about some of things you talk about in the video, while your explanations are more somatic than how I think of these things, I think you did a good job explaining learning to the extent you did. I actually got such a flashback to studying for this I dug up an old powerpoint I made to explain repetition to justify daily lesson recaps. I had never really thought of learning in the context of elden ring bosses but obviously you're learning at all times so it makes sense to me. Using the old lingo we used at uni; you are first learning declarative knowledge, turning it into procedural knowledge and gaining fluency and automaticity. I reckon that in regular play, the learning curve is quite different from a challenge run and the effects of learning the fight might make winning seem like a total fluke. When you learn when to dodge the bosses basic combo and when to punish, the fight becomes radically different and might end fast.
about dodging waterfowl, the jumping away trick doesn't only work on medium range, it works at close range as well, I've no hit this fight with a slow zweihander and played aggressively, I was always able to dodge it at close range this way even when I was recovering from an attack.
the idea of your memory 'running out of bandwidth' reminds me of the mental stack in fighting games. it's having to keep track and account of all these different variables like spacing in neutral, mix-ups, 50/50s, jump ins to the extent where certain options that would otherwise be reactable (like drive impact in SF6) aren't reacted to even in the highest level of play. your memory simply doesn't have the space to hold and process all the knowledge available so that things that may seem obvious to dodge or block, aren't done. then we end up beating ourselves up for not doing the so-called 'obvious' 😂. great video!
@@JehrkeFR me too, its honestly kinda wild how similar souls games and fighting games are as learning experiences, even though FGs are so much more unpredictable. mental stack in particular is beating peoples' asses in tekken 8, but i can attest that the deliberate practice/repetition and mental game gred talks about in these videos are monumental in the learning process and enjoyment of any game overall
5:09 Same. I don't know what it is with me, but I tend to have to learn a boss much more closely than others. So it took me 629 attempts to kill Malenia on my first playthrough. (which did drive me a little bit insane) By comparison I only took 320 attempts to kill Consort Radahn, which actually felt almost relaxing. Like there was never this same feeling that he was as insurmountable as Malenia. That's partly due to Waterfowl but also due to her insane complexity under the hood, like the ability to string together combos in basically any way she wants, stagger cancels, frametraps, stance break immunity on certain attacks etc. I did feel that I had an ocean of knowledge checks to get through without even knowing what they were. To anyone saying she's only hard because of Waterfowl: I envy you, because you haven't had to experience as much pain as I have at her hands.
Finally someone else gives Malenia’s moveset the respect it deserves. She isn’t just a one trick pony with waterfowl dance, it an extremely fast paced duel where you have to play around the mixups she can throw at you with proactive dodging and positioning. And that’s honestly what I adore about the fight, it actually feels like two battle hardened warriors pulling out all their tricks to throw the other off their game, Malenia really nails that feeling for me.
This is a great video, like usual. Loved the way you break down the learning process via scientific evidence and clearly explain all of your thought processes.
be wary of long read first off, well done! Good job on both beating the most challenging boss in the game fair and square AND making a banger of a video in the process! You made me realize how video games of all things expose our human psychology. That one bit about how our attention spans are fucked resonated with me so much. Made me want to remember my Malenia runs, too. For some reason, I can't work in short intervals, and binge everything all the time. I beat Malenia three times, no summons, and my second and third victories were done in one long sitting. Even if I'm angry and frustrated, I just can't stop. I want to keep pushing forward. Idk if it's healthy or not. I LOVE Malenia. I remember reaching a small rotting lake inside of the Haligtree, looking down and realizing where exactly am I. I almost reached Malenia. I knew she's a very difficult boss (something something waterfowl) and a legendary figure in lore, so going through the for wall and watching her cutscene made my heart go crazy. I was PUMPED to fight her, and show what defeat feels like. She still is the boss I'm looking forward to fight the most - the atmosphere is unmatched. On my first playthrough, I had a sort of hybrid mage build? Although I did put most of my points into VIG and END, so not much was left for mind and int. Moonveil right hand, regal scepter left hand. Most of my flasks were crimson because I prefer to stay up close and personal. I tried bombing her with everything I had, but it left me empty-handed by the time Phase 2 began. So I went pure physical in phase 1 without changing my build. A katana on katana fight, no AoW, no magic, no bullshit. Second phase though... all bets were off. Malenia with her rot attacks, and me with my magic spam. I didn't learn her second phase at all, I just crushed her with blue magic waves. Took 4 hours in total. Second playthrough was even cheesier. Frenzied pyromancer. Tactical eye laser and a miniature sun to her face. She never dodges frenzied burst, and only dodges the initial cast of flame of the fell god. All that's left to do is to bait her into the explosion. Sometimes she literally just walks into it and falls flat on her ass. I honestly felt bad tossing a blind woman around like that. Still took 2,5 hours. My third run however was by far the coolest. I decided to revisit and perfect my spellblade build. Got myself a carian sorcery sword, which works both a sword and a staff, with low damage being a trade off. This, however, freed up my left hand for a shield. Put carian retaliation on it and began to learn how to parry things. Parrying Malenia gave me a completely new perspective to the fight. Some of her most difficult attacks were the most simple. I kept on trying to parry the kick knowing full well that it's not possible, and I mostly died to her basic sword swings. The one where she swings her katana downwards is SO quick, I don't think I have the reaction time to parry it. And if I miss a parry, I will be open for the next swing, which will most likely kill me. So I ended up either taking this attack to a shield, or dodging. Everything else was straightforward enough once I got the timings down. Parrying allowed me to stay in Malenia's face all the time and never back away. It also made me feel like my character is actually a better swordswoman, Malenia's true match. I still died. A lot. But I beat her kinda??? sorta??? hitless, though I took a couple of hits to the shield. This run definitely wasn't perfect, and i STILL have no idea how to dodge waterfowl up close, I ended up tanking the first flurry with a shield and dodging the secong and third flurries. But it was definitely my best and most fair run against her. Also, I have no idea how people are doing RL1 runs. I think I will go absolutely mad if I have to do most bosses basically hitless. You, good sir, are awesome. Thank you once again for the research you've done, and a great video.
Great video, and congrats on the run! One thing that I find fascinating is the move she does at 30:22, her disengage. This was the move that unlocked the whole fight for me, especially phase 1. Because I realized that I had seen it before back in Sekiro and it made such a strong impression on me and learning it, understanding it for what it is, and capitalizing on it was what helped me beat that game charmless easily after first bashing my head against a brick wall. And sure, there are loads of other bosses in this game that performs the same disengage, but when Malenia did it something triggered in me and I started playing hyper aggressively, much more than you did in your run, and found that I'd get it to trigger more and more when I did. I don't like Malenia and I don't like waterfowl because it makes every other part of her fight harder in the anticipation of it. But in my last run she was more terrified of me than I was of her.
you would be surprised by how much good positioning and jumping will affect the fight even without waterfowl. You can punish her kick by just walking backwards, you can punish her idle by just hitting her, her double swing by getting behind and charging a heavy, jump attack over her small scarlet rot aoe after it "blooms" etc
Hey mate-- me again. Not as much words to give but glad to see you trying the UA-cam thing! I hope that you don't feel discouraged based on views cause I believe the act of expression makes it worth it. Enjoyed this one too, you're well-spoken and thoughtful. :)
What made Malenia fun for me to fight was implementing the Bloody Helice ash of war into my dodge/punish, and then, the big one - the Deflecting Hardtear. To be fair that one made the entire game more fun for me because I'm all about the deflecting playstyle (bet no one could have guessed from my pic), but even with her health regen it was such a fun and engaging way to fight her. I think it's really related to me being able to fight her more on my terms and in a way that I enjoy, because as you say, simply putting all my focus on playing around Waterfowl wasn't enough to be fun.
i think you pretty much can make a video about any topic you find engaging as long as is made in this type of narration hehe. It is very enjoyable wathching a video about learning a boss, a critique of critics or be the psychology of rage but what made it good to me is the way you present it.
First of all, awesome video, i really enjoyed it. I have to admit though, your final conclusion about her pained me a little bit😅. Ive defeated her around fifteen times on my own playthroughs, including at lvl 1, and a lot more often solo as a summon. Shes probably the boss im the most familiar with in the entire game. And i have to tell you, her basic moveset is genuinely incredible. It allows you to just roll backwards safely on most of her combos, but there are countless punish windows that open up once you know how to exploit them, which enables you to really stay aggressive the entire fight, while still being completely safe doing it. My favorite example is her special move where she dashes forward with a triple slash that frametraps you when rolling backwards at medium load, with either a quick or a fast followup slash. The first thing about this move is that you can actually tell from her dash animation which followup she will do, which allows you to either safely roll into the slow one to get a charged attack with a faster weapon, or jump over it with a heavy jump attack when a charged heavy would be too slow. But it really gets crazy with the fast followup. If you roll forwards slightly left of her, then immediately start sprinting, youre able to avoid all five of the possible combo continuations, with four of them being punishable. Finding out these intricate details made the fight more enjoyable everytime i beat her, and i really hope for you to have the same experience. Shes definitely one of my favorite bosses of the entire series, and shes by far the most rewarding to optimize
I learn bosses similarly as you do, and act in a similar chill way when I do. I learn with short sessions. I've done a Malenia RL1 as well and could relate to nearly all of your discoveries (and flinched whenever you did during the final fight). And I've got a very similar opinion about Malenia, which I also developed over my many hours of dying to her. This is a weirdly surreal video. Thanks for making it!
9:46 Really great point. I think the increasing complexity of these games in addition to our cognitive loads definitely influences our perception of difficulty. There was a time when I could come home from school and place all of my focus solely on Dark Souls. Yesterday, I managed to beat Promise Consort Radahn during my hour lunch break and it was a rage-inducing struggle. My alarm was going off in the run that I actually managed to defeat him in. It felt like I just wasn't able to adapt to the fight even though I knew what I should be doing differently. Cognitive load is for sure a massive factor in our performance and ability to adapt.
Love this video! The way you structure your learning process is really cool, and definitely something that could work with other things too, like learning a new piece of music. Looking forward to what you do with the channel!
Vow of the Indomitable made WFD so much easier and fun for me man. I see the appeal in doing the dodge without AOW and all of that, but fighting her RL1 without getting hit was already an enormous challenge, I really felt like I didn't need to make it even harder. I tried the methods you showed and got her multiple times, but vow of the indomitable is just the fucking best lol
@@rayzu4380 bruh I could never got vow of the indomitable to work for me, it doesn’t last long enough, I thought about it, tried it, didn’t work…also I have to quickly switch to shield from 2 handing and maybe that’s why I fuck it up
@@PeterEhik I think you have to use the AoW then roll right after. also shouldn't swapping to your shield automatically stop 2 handing your weapon? just press left on the d pad once.
I remember being really frustrated by Malenia my first playthrough, but each subsequent run and been a lot easier. It's weird how the ability to do better on bosses crystallizes the more time you spend away after getting experience fighting them. A lot of this is down to using the correct tools (cold great stars with wild strikes did WORK).
Great video, I love how you end up connecting our memory usage in videogames to our real life memory usage. How cognitive load can affect our memory not just in games but in real life. Reminds me that I need to stop looking at my phone when work needs to get done lol. I wanted to share my Malenia experience too. On my first playthrough, I was pretty stubborn and basically refused to use anything but my Lordsworn Greatsword (literally the first when I picked up) with no status effects and specifically chose not to use mimic tear like I had for a few bosses before her. The greatsword ended up being pretty good for mini staggers, but it was still a 4 hour slog of about 70 attempts. I didn't know how to deal with waterfowl. In the end, I decided to block it with a greatshield. I would pull it out right when I saw her go up in the air, then switch back to two hand afterwards. I didn't find it to be a fun way to deal with the attack, especially since she healed off of it, but it was consistent. When I did my level 1 run of the game, I decided I wanted to beat her with just a dagger and a parry shield. I tried again to learn to dodge waterfowl. I just couldn't get it consistent. I caved and used bloodhound step (pre-nerf). Even then I had trouble learning the move. Also parrying her is really hard, that quick two piece killed me so much. It took 250 attempts over 3 days. And that was with me practicing in parallel on my NG+ character. After seeing you truly learn on your own how to dodge waterfowl, I want to give it another shot. But at the same time, I feel that fighting Malenia is just about playing around waterfowl, and it's just not fun. But I'll probably give it another shot, some day
Fantastic video! So empowering xD If I may add two pieces of advice that aid the learning process for RL1: 1) Practice with a high HP character that deals minimal damage and has minimal poise. Never kill the boss with that character (unless you can revive them). This results in very long fights where you see everything that can happen. High HP prevents resetting the fight all the time from frequent dying. Talismans should be defensive. The minimal poise is important because it gives you a clear visual clue for your mistakes. 2) For two-phase bosses: have an upgraded weapon ready specifically to end phase one quickly, then switch to your main (un-upgraded) weapon in phase two. Do this step when you understand phase one well enough. There are a few other good tips, but I find these two especially useful.
incredible video as always. malenia is my favorite boss in any of the souls games, maybe outside of gael (his music is just too good) i think she in particular is a boss that only gets more fun the more you understand her moveset, and how to exploit it, where as other bosses feel "cheesed" when you find a weakpoint in there ai (most massive enemies like dragons) she feels rewarding. understanding what moves you can jump over and when you can punish her because shes staggerable was the most enjoyable feeling ive had in these games.
Congrats on a well earned victory. Sometimes they don't scratch the itch for whatever reason but it was still the success of all previous failures and that makes it worthy. If you want the exhilaration of dancing with bosses then try the immortal journey in Sekiro. It's the hardest trial and concurrently the only gauntlet with no reward at the end, other than the satisfaction of knowing you've achieved it. I would absolutely watch that. Subbed.
Imagine if Malania just always started with Waterfoul. I think it could've potentially led to faster learning of the move and people would get good at it way faster, possibly leading to less hate towards the move. Great video Gled, my goat. ❤ Ps i got my computer to run elden ring wahoo!
Problem is 90% of the difficulty in figuring out Waterfowl (on your own) is finding out just how many situations she can do it in and that you have to be ready for it at almost any moment. That's why the most common complaint with Waterfowl, or at least one of the most common, is that it can sometimes be used at times when it'll be undodgeable. Obviously the answer is that you have to avoid committing to attacks when she can use waterfowl, but that means having to relearn parts of a fight you thought you'd already learned whenever she reveals a new situation she can pull it out in, when her pulling the move out is already rare compared to the rest of her moves. I guessed the primary method for dodging waterfowl after the first time I saw it, minus standing still and letting the last attack miss you. That, however, was nowhere near the necessary information I needed to form a methodology for fighting Malenia, and the only way to form that methodology is to fight her over and over and over. Which doesn't have to be the way these games are designed, it's not how Sekiro is designed, for example, Sekiro gives you all the information you need to deal with every attack (minus chip damage from enemies with fire weapons) as soon as you've seen it once.
Lots of good stuff here. When I beat consort (after ten hours) with the same dodge-attack limitation, one of the biggest things was reminding myself between every attempt that I wasn’t going to beat him that session. Took a lot of the pressure off, which took out a lot of frustration. Eventually, despite my insistence that it wasn’t going to happen tonight, I did kill him!
I don't want to spoil this video, because it is amazing, I just want to say when I saw the beginning of 288 I knew wtf was about to go down! Impressive!
Ah! A 39 minutes video of speaking about peak by a peak UA-camr! Finally! An actual use for the UA-cam Notifications bell lol. Honestly, Malenia is still my favorite boss in the Soulsborne series, it's a boss that I would define as "'ENDURE", it is this word that defines her fight in every sense of the word, at the beginning, you feel like you're so weak & insignificant compared to her, then with time, you start to hate her, then despise her, then you begin to internalize her moveset inch-by-inch, you start to understand how to avoid Waterfowl Dance, oh you dodged it successfully with medium-rolls? You thought it was by chance? Well then how about you make it almost consistently? You think you can't do it, but you can, and you see yourself beginning to be in-tune with her perfect flow & dance, now it's like they give you multiple sheets containing musical notes, and then you begin performing them on a Piano in perfect succession, whenever note comes up (as in, her moves), you execute it perfectly, you begin to even predict what her upcoming move is based on your positioning relative to her, as if you know how that music sounds & you begin to execute it without even reading the notes in front of you. She'll always have a special place in my heart, it is a fight that I hope From Software replicate in the future, ofc there are some nitpicks I have with her, some idiosyncrasies & dare I say, a bit too arbitrary accounting of her poise. Waterfowl Dance is a move I grew to despise, but now I kinda like the attack. But overall this fight is pure cinema.
Honestly, I think it would have been a very different video if she did the move in the fight where I killed her lol. But who knows, that's just speculation. I definitely like many other fights much more but I love the presentation and OST. I didn't talk about the art in the fight (not a critique) but there's some really cool stuff in it. Malenia is an iconic character design.
Cool strat. I did a run similar this: zwei, no hit, rl1, forgot to max upgrade it and was too lazy to do so. It fun to see how strategies differ between runs. Most roll out and wait for the combo to end. I said "the more time she's staggered, the less time she can hit me" and just went gung hoe with the posture breaks. I just looked up a guide on how to dodge waterfolw without running away and practiced until it was just another move (even learned to get a rolling r1 during it).
10:57 it wasn't until you explained this that i realize this what i do when I'm frustrated by a move i can't learn. i take off all my armor and force myself to get better at dodging. If i try to tank it, i'll die. its actually how i managed to beat consort radahn so cheers for that!
Bro, I've just started the video but I already need to comment... I too beat Malenia RL1 a long time ago and have since pretty much ignored the encounter. Like you i thought it had some good qualities and some poor. However, I recently had a long discussion with someone about WFD (in the comments of your video actually) and it prompted me to revisit the encounter, again at RL1. Since then I've beaten her at RL1 many times with several different weapons, I've drastically improved at the encounter for example my first RL1 was 15+ minutes and I got hit 3x, since then I've done it hitless in less than half that time with lower damage. The difference is remarkable. After doing this, I will say that while i stand by most if not all of my previous criticisms, the fight has become a favorite of mine and I absolutely love it. It's EXTREMELY addictive and her kit is one of the most engaging and satisfying to deal with in all of gaming all while offering an absurd amount of player freedom and skill expression. I saw a video from OceaTwo where he said that Malenia let's a good player be good and I really think that sums it up well. One of my favorite bosses ever tbh and I'm thankful that fellow argued with me about WFD even if their points were rubbish because it prompted me to revisit the encounter. I'm now working on a RL1 +0, no buffs, AuX, AoW, great runes ECT and when you can match her pace 10+ minutes at a time without being hit there's not much in gaming that feels better TBH.
You guys and Loopine video helped me so much against Waterflow Dance... Thanks I must say. I would never knew the power of running and jumping otherwise.
@ that’s absolutely ridiculous, just another misconception. They’re so plentiful with this game. Malenia’s combo cancels are a big part of her moveset, i love her mixups. Maybe that’s why erlang is my favorite boss ever. His combo flow chart is ridiculous but so so fun
I spent a lot of time trying to beat this fight with parries, hoping that they'd give me an edge. I found that I got to the point where her whole kit is trivial except for waterfowl. I did however love it everytime she throws her sword out to her left and prepares to charge at you, because I know you can parry it and it always felt like a high noon moment. This fight is some of the most fun and deepest misery i've experienced in souls.
Great video! Malenia is my favorite Souls boss, but I get why most people don't enjoy Waterfowl Dance. It could use, like, half a second of extra air time before she starts swinging imo
Even though I love malenia I do agree with some of the criticism in this video, she kinda forces you to bait out waterfowl while being long range, which feels too artificial for me, but the feeling of beating her is unlike any other. Great video, looking forward to see what you do next
To be fair you can dodge it point blank, it goes just about like this: When she acends, lock off the camera and do a 360 around her (she still has collision so make sure your spin is wide enough). Then roll even further in the rotation you were taking and then dodge away from malenia's current position. Lock back on and do a precise roll for flurry 2. Finally, she should go over you, but for safety you can roll forward, wait for your camera to snap back, then roll backwards.
@@Mr.Starlight_gaming yeah that strategy is pretty useful because its not that hard to pull off, but even though its one of the only ways that you can dodge waterfowl at close range, it feels like im abusing the AI and again, artificial. It is a technique that the devs surely didnt know it was possible, but if it works, it works.
You can at point blank range also - Run and time a jump to doge the first attack then roll the rest - Light roll/bloodhound step away away - Shield There's nothing really forcing you to play at range unless that's how you want to fight.
@@tucke3 you don't need to do that at all, you can just run and jump waterfowl even if you're just over a meter away. Even if you're too close for comfort you can still block it with a shield, strength weapon or spell/ash of war.
I feel like the main reason I enjoyed her so much was one because of that mental game you mentioned, it felt really unique to the rest of the game even if her moves are mostly nothing too special the overall fight is, but also because of how I play the game in general It was my first souls game, and really the only other games I had played consistently over the past couple years before hand were minecraft and Genshin (and doom eternal, but that was even farther in the past). Needless to say I struggled at first lol. But before I played, I had heard the whole debate about summons, and since the starter summons are more work than they're worth imo, I just learned the bosses at first. I had so much fun with Margit, even if I probably died an embarrassing amount of times, because I felt that synergy you get when fighting these bosses. Slowly learning the moves and WATCHING myself get better. Then even though Godrick still took me a good chunk of attempts he felt 100 times easier. I continued this well into the game, no summons. I made it into nokron for ranni's quest, got mimic tier and practically spit on it. But then, I entered the fight with those god damn Gargoyles. I'm pretty sure I was under leveled, but at the same time one on one they were a piece of cake, but I could never kill the first one fast enough. It felt as if it was DESIGNED for you to use a mimic tear, and I think I even saw a message that basically meant try mimic tier so I caved, and that broke that synergy because after that any minor inconvenience that damn summon whispered to me like the green goblin mask. It got to the point where when I was approaching Maliketh and had to fight that draconic tree sentinel with no summon, I realized that not only did I lose that synergy, but I was so used to having my summon take the enemy's attention that I was just bad again. It was comparable to my first few Margit attempts. After this I went into Maliketh's arena with the intent of using him to regain that skill- and he is NOT the boss for that. I struggle with him more than Malenia (still better than those godforsaken gargoyles. I prefer the godskin duo I hate those stoney bastards). I continue using mimic tier and not using it, struggling to find a balance, I beat the main game and kill the elden beast, then I make it to the halig tree. After getting about halfway through I realize that I am GARBAGE and that if I can't even make it through the normal enemies, Malenia will make me cry and scream. So I make a deal with myself, before I beat Malenia or even find Mohg, I decide that instead of just rune farming and over leveling myself, I go into new game plus, and use this as an opportunity to relearn my skills. I still use mimic tier from time to time, but since so many of the early game bosses are still stupid easy in NG+, it eased the desire to use mimic tier except for really annoying bosses (THOSE STUPID GARGOYELS) or ones that I didn't really need to get the full experience again like Rykard, and eventually made my way back to the Halig tree. Before I had even started the game, I had made a pact that I would not use mimic tier for her, and I did not. No cheeses, just an honest build. On NG+. And I LOVED it. I got mad a few times, but at that point I just realized I was getting overloaded and would take breaks. At one point I just left her to do something else in the game then came back later. I even did co-op stuff and ended up killing her in someone else's word first lol. But eventually, I did it. And that synergy I talked about with Margit, where I watched myself get better, I don't think there will ever be a boss that perfects that feeling more than Malenia, especially as a first time souls player. I didn't use any stupidly good weapons like rivers of blood or moonviel, but instead I used elenora's poleblade, which is stupid fun to fight her with. The ash does really high stance damage, but it takes a minute to start and she can easily knock you out of it so it still requires patience and thought. No other boss in the game made me feel nearly as accomplished, although I feel like if I didn't use mimic tier on messmer he probably would've given me a similar feeling. Oh and remember how before I said that I went into NG+ before killing Malenia or finding Mohg? Yeah I went through the whole DLC on NG+. I would've given Radahn the same treatment as Malenia but I got to him like two days after his nerf so I felt like there wasn't even a point lol. With mimic tier I beat him in four tries, and the only reason it took that many was because of his absurd damage in ng+ (I had super buff armor, almost all the sculdtree fragments, the physical damage resistance talisman, something else for holy I don't remember what and he still killed me in like 2-3 hits.) I feel like damage with Malenia was much more balanced, even with her high numbers. I was also in NG+ tho so I kinda asked for it from both of them lol
People always say you need to run and jump to avoid Waterfowl, but I’ve always just ran from both the first AND second flurry, then dodged into the third, and away from the fourth. This has worked for me ever since I first mastered the fight. If she’s too close to outrun, I circle her and use her forwards momentum to my advantage by dodging into her at an angle, which is admittedly less successful on average but still keeps me alive most of the time
One way you can dodge the Waterfowl Dance is to run away and jump over the first hit, then dodge/space the rest. Some pitfalls, though: jumping too early will cause you to get hit on the drop, and jumping too late will not give you enough height to move your hitbox out of the way.
great video. Fun and informative. brings back some memories too. I remember using night comet and just being able to remove like... half her health bar while she was just... walking around. And at that point I thought that was too cheesy... and to not ruin my experience I chose to change tactics. What I ended up using was Adula's moonblade and that turned out to be quite a fun choice. Felt fitting too. Waterfowl... yeah, can feel kinda bs... tho it did feel very good to finally dodge. To me, Malenia always felt weirdly fair is spite of all the bs. Idk, everything just clicks. It feels right. And it was fun... in spite of the failure. The one I've not beaten in the entirety of this game is... the final boss of the dlc... and frankly, the main reason for that is... I just don't have anything positive motivating me to move forward besides doing it so I can say I did it. There's a lot I could say about it but I won't overbloat the comment
Just a small bit of advice if anyone hasn't noticed, as far as I can tell, when she's in neutral but she's sidestepping as opposed to walking forward you can always punish her safely with a jump attack. One tiny thing that really helps when you want to fight her aggressively.
I am a huge fan of the malenia level 1 fight. I actually made a save file dedicated to letting me fight her at level 1 when ever I want and I just alt f4 if I win. The way I dodge waterfowl dance seems pretty effective, but takes some practice. If I am at mid to far range, I just run from the first flurry, jumping just before it reaches me. If I am close, I swap weapons to a bloodhound step dagger in my off hand, then just as she starts moving, I use the skill at a specific up and left angle. For the second flurry, I just roll through. The third flurry is interesting because it’s actually easier to dodge on medium load. I play on light load and have for a while, so I forget the medium load dodge, but I think you just roll back. On lightload, you end up rolling too far, so she catches you most of the time. The way I work around this is by not rolling at all. Just before the she lunges at me, I do a weird pivot backwards in a shape resembling a fish hook. That seems to work almost every time. The one catch with this strategy is I have like a 30% chance to get hit with one hit of the flurry. This will not kill you if you are using ritual shield (which I personally recommend as it lets you live one hit in any of the multihits and when combined with the the opaline hardtear you can even live some single hit attacks). I still haven’t come up with an easy, consistent strategy for the clone attack. I run as far back as I can, jumping over clones if necessary, then there are only three attacks left to dodge, and I can’t do it fully consistently, but it’s the best I’ve figured out. Also, just general level one advice, you should pretty much always have the ritual shield talisman and ritual sword talisman equipped, ritual shield lets you live one hit on most endgame attacks and ritual sword is basically just a permanent 15% damage buff when playing at level 1
A weapon with a good tap R2 (Zweihander is my favorite) makes the boss so much fun. The 1.14 tap R2 speed buffs actually helped this fight immensely, there are now a ton of tap R2 openings. For phase 2, you can load up a charged R2 and if she jumps in the air, you can just release the button early to whiff the attack and then dodge and queue another charged R2 after she comes back down as opposed to using an ash of war which locks you into a longer animation. Also the long range no roll waterfowl strafe is super satisfying while also being pretty easy to pull off. The only problem is how passive she is in phase 1, I use fan daggers cause I'm impatient. I still haven't done Malenia RL1 and I want to try but I think I already locked myself out of ritual shield talisman in my RL1 save file and I really don't want to do Niall without it. I still think Consort is harder even after the nerfs but then again I haven't fought consort a lot, while I have fought Malenia a lot because of the interactivity in figuring out which moves are the most optimal and how her hyperarmor works is a lot of fun for me. Still haven't learned the circle dodge though lol
When i did my second RL1, i used the Milady from the DLC since i beat Mogh much earlier, this sword completely shreds her and catches her out very often. Wing Stance was great against her as it closes distance and the fluid movement matching hers was exhilarating. Now Pre Change Consort? Hahah… 600+ attempts and pure frustration using the same weapon, milady helped make things bearable in trying times
My strategy for Malenia at RL1 was basically to stay at middle range and hit her with the R2 attack from Wing Stance every time she completed a combo. Not the most elegant strategy, perhaps, but hey, if the devs wanted to discourage it, they should have given her projectile attacks. But that also gets me to the biggest issue IMO with her design, which is that she's a very easy boss with one "fuck you, I win" move. Everything else she does can very easily be outspaced. Her kick doesn't even have to be dodged, and she's prone to spamming it as a combo starter whenever it misses (which is 100% of the time if you play it right). I'm pretty sure she's the only major boss in the entire game that doesn't have either an instant closer move or a projectile attack with which to force you into melee range and/or heal punish. And if you're a caster build, you can basically spam either Night Comet or another spell that breaks her dodge AI for easy wins.
I always got the feeling and have seen others mention that Malenia was more a Sekiro tier boss in a more Souls style game and it showed. Her move set would have been glorious to learn and parry with Wolf
@ I can see that too, Wo Long has a similar vibe to Sekiro with the parrying and swordplay. Loved Wo Long, but Sekiro was the first game I ever platinumed so its always gonna be a big point of reference for me
@@CassHadleyMusik Yeah fair enough but me and a friend played basically all of Wo Long so other than Nioh 2 it's a big point of reference for us for this game...
Waterfowl is her only problem. In my first play through, I just looked up on how ONGBAL dodges it. But seeing doesn't mean I can execute it. I still have to struggle before I learn it. After beating her and then again in RL1, I have since done many kills with different weapons. I do like her, and I only dislike Waterfowl. To enjoy her fight, I just forget about Waterfowl. If she uses it, I just try my best to dodge it based on my current distance. I already know the tricks but I can't dodge it 100% of the times. If I fail, I just accept death and no longer be bothered by it nowadays. Just think of it as I can ride Torrent with no problem most of the times but death by gravity will still happen sometimes and I won't be bothered by it. The biggest game changer is Deflecting Hardtear from the DLC. It works so well against her normally as well as pretty much solve the Waterfowl issue too. Giant Hunt on any weapon with Deflecting Hardtear are my favorite build against her nowadays. Give it a try when you can and maybe you will like her then.
I use double nagakiba with hoarfrost stomp, when she isn’t doing anything you can do the stomp while she’s outside of its range. This will prevent her from standing around and almost always get her to run into the ice, I think after 3 of these she’s takes bleed like frost damage. Couple this with frost on the nagakibas and do a 2 hand double slash after you dodge attacks
I see a lot of other people sharing their Malenia experiences in the comments, so I guess I’ll do the same. I love this boss. She’s up there with Ludwig and Orphan as one of my favorite Fromsoft bosses of all time, and coming from the woman with a Bloodborne tattoo, that’s a pretty big compliment. I 90% agree with your assessment of her moveset, but while you dislike it, that’s what makes me enjoy it. This is obviously to share my own personal experience, not demean yours, but the fact that Waterfowl exists makes her a better boss to me. All of her other attacks are “easy” to dodge. Simple 3 hit combos you can roll out of, linear slashes and stabs you can see coming and punish effectively. And then, she pulls out the hammer and takes your head off in a single swing. Waterfowl is what defines Malenia, because it takes her from a good boss with an effective, readable moveset, to an amazing boss with that one move that flips how you think about her fight on its head. I like that there are ways to cheese it (frost pots), because it doesn’t necessitate that you learn the attack. But for me, Malenia was always my Elden Ring “goal.” She is the first Elden Ring boss that I didn’t just want to beat, but master. And after seeing legends like LMSH in action, I thought “okay, I’m going to do that.” So, that’s what I’ve been doing. I took off my clothes, put a pot on my head, and picked up a pair of katanas. My primary punish for a lot of her moves has been unsheathe, but I’m also using the rolling or jumping L1 for certain moves. I am not doing an RL1 run right now, but seeing you learn how to deal with Waterfowl shed some insight on how I’ve been struggling with it. Additionally, I think what makes Malenia work is that she’s optional. She’s not a main story boss, or even an easily accessible one. In order to get her, you have to get a secret medallion, light all the lamps in that one evergaol, and go through an entire separate area just to reach her. And then, once you get to her, they put a grace right outside her fog wall. To me, this is Miyazaki saying “you made it. Here she is. Now win.” Whenever I die to Malenia, I never feel like it was outside of my control. I almost never have camera issues in her arena due to it being a wide open circle, there’s nothing that really visually clogs the fight, it’s just you and her in a puddle of water. To me, Malenia is a duel, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. Anyways, enough of me yapping. Thank you to whoever took the time to read this. …She’s also really hot-
Im a malenia apologist and a waterfowl glazer. Getting a feel for waterfowls cooldown gives such a unique push and pull to the fight that I cant find anywhere else. But…. You dont start fighting malenia knowing the cooldown by heart or knowing that the move even has a set cooldown. And you’re probably too caught up learning the rest of her moveset to notice it. So the only time a player knows she will use waterfowl is around 60% health. Past that the move feels entirely random. And since the first burst isn’t dodge-able in the way the second and third are, it creates a uniquely confusing learning experience. Players will fight malenia not knowing that spacing is key to manage waterfowl, trigger her first waterfowl right next to her, try to dodge it, and get absolutely blasted. It isnt entirely unreasonable to assume that since you couldnt dodge the first burst, then you probably cant dodge the second and third bursts. So now they know to keep distance from her, but mistakenly assume they need to be far enough to space the entire move. This does “work” for countering waterfowl, but cripples the players offensive opportunities. But all that solution needs to do is “work” for players to assume thats how they are supposed to deal with it and run with that idea. I think adding a slight glow on her sword to indicate that she can use waterfowl would drastically improve the learning experience while not compromising the threat of the move (especially since knowing the cooldown and throwing a single throwing knife already completely cripples waterfowls threat). After the final burst of waterfowl, the glow would disappear until she can use it again to signify the connection. Since the move would lose its initial random factor, players would be more confident sticking close to her until the glow. The glow would then scare the player away from her, pushing them to distance the first burst by the time she uses the move, but not give them enough time to space the rest. Players are then exactly where they need to be to figure out that they can dodge the rest of waterfowls bursts. I fully believe that waterfowl is incredibly designed when you understand it. But when running into it for the first time, it has a knack for putting players into positions where the solution doesn’t seem possible.
I don't think waterfowl even has a cool down though. I just learned to dodge it (run and jump) and it just stopped being a thing to worry about at all.
20 днів тому+6
Waterfowl doesn’t really have a cooldown functionally. There is an internal cooldown but it’s already done by the time she finishes the move. Her AI just tries to not prioritize using the move directly after but the AI can flat out ignore this and chain waterfowls together.
Waterfowl isn’t too difficult for me to dodge these days anymore. The real problem is her clone attack. For the life of me I can’t figure out how to properly dodge it. If you’re too close to it, I feel like it’s completely undodgeable and you’re always gonna get hit by a clone, maybe two. Spamming light roll works fairly consistently, but there’s no way that’s the intended way to dodge it, is it?
Well, as far as recommendations for other games you can learn, I'd highly recommend getting to the superbosses in Kingdom Hearts 2 and 3 on Critical mode. Those fights are still the best to ever do it and found in an unexpected game for many people.
Amazing video! love the work. As to your last question, I think I'd love to see you play and talk about Armored Core 6 (thats the FromSoftware game I'm currently playing) if you havent already I think you'd personally get a kick out of playing Sekiro, and I'd LOVE to see your takes on the way that FromSoft plays with the psychology of the players of their games. there's such a combat shift between Elden Ring and Sekiro (this is true of the rest of their games as well) and I'd love to see your particular style applied to that shift in psychology. Also give me any sort of longform content dude I got shit to do and games to beat and you're ridiculously encouraging.
@ no doubt! I’m about to finish my second playthrough of Wukong then I gotta play a couple short indies like Animal Well and I’ll be jumping into Elden Ring after that. I played it for like 15 mins at launch after spending 40 minutes creating a character only to realize this game is too big and I’m far too busy for it but now I’m ready lol
This video inspired me to continue my Malenia RL1 tries and I gotta say watching your video whilst playing was really calming in a weird way. Though I have to say in Phase 2 she didnt even get to do Waterfowl, Clone OR a 2nd bloom so I guess I got really lucky. I do agree with most of your points at the end: This fight is severely flawed. Malenia as a presentation is amazing: everything around the fight is perfect, but the fight itself just isnt. I have a honest love-hate relationship with this it. Im always so excited to get to her again and yet everytime she does waterfowl im dreading the few miliseconds im there. To specify what I mean is just the instant she goes up in the air you are expected to be sprinting backwards already, but the time it takes one to realize that you have to decide between running back or getting close to do "the funny strat" shes already started doing it and then its just over. In dark souls 3 when there was an attack that would murder your entire hp bar when not properly dealt with it would be a well telegraphed attack : Midir Laser (both types), Nameless king 2nd (3rd) Phase slam, Demon Prince laser or Meteors, Old Demon King Meteors, etc... Even Elden ring does this: Godfrey ground explosions, Radagon triple slam, Elden Beast Triple Rings, Fortissax to some extent, etc... The thing here is: its well telegraphed and it invokes this fear of something iminent, where as Waterfowl is just a constant fear after 75% hp is gone and theres really nothing you can do except guess when she has it loaded up again. I just dont get why Malenia doesn't necessairly obide by those same standards. Especially in phase 2 when she can do it a lot more often. Because even if you learnt how it works, youd still have trouble dealing with it after hundreds of attempts or kills. (kudos to the dlc for not making this the new standard) Lastly I find it simply baffling that Malenia is still broken mechanically on some levels. I have multiple examples of her instantly going into the defensive stance as if i had done too much damage to her, without even having touched her, or her inconsistently doing the defensive backstep stance thing when Ive done the same exact damage rotation and sometimes she dashes back and sometimes she doesnt. Everytime I did get to finally beat her though? Pure Adrenaline and Ecstasy. Definetly the hardest boss ive beaten in RL1 so far. ONTO THE DLC!!
you only need to be one meter away to run and jump the first flurry of waterfowl, the hit and run strat isn't that difficult if you're not trying to do something stupid like dragon maw, you can also just block it with barricade shield or use miriums vanishing etc.
@@Ghorda9 considering I (AND GRED) was talking about RL1: As Gred says in the video Malenia rewards aggressiveness. My build was Cold Starfist and quite frankly, I NEEDED to be up in her face to even get any damage; Therefore it wasn't possible to even squeeze out that 1 Meter without compromising damage without getting Waterfowled in my face (which i could dodge with the running around strat fairly consistently), but then you are missing my point: Its about the expectation of Waterfowl. Only sorta kinda being able to do damage sometimes is not a viable strategy; its not even a strategy, its just lucky. The hit and run tactic only drags out the fight which means you spend more time each run which you don't want to do, considering concentration levels and attention span per run for an extended amount of time (Gred explains this in the video at 21:00). The longer you need to focus on something the more likely you are to make mistakes. The other options you mention are quite literally not viable for a RL1 run.
@@yeeterdeleter8193 you can definitely squeeze out one meter, you just need to get your hit in and preemptively back out each time. It doesn't matter if you're using starfists or a great sword, this still works. Waterfowl gives you enough time if you're proactive and always assume it's her next move. She also has a ton of openings to get damage in even in phase two.
@@yeeterdeleter8193 It's not even a distance thing TBH. Your hands still have an active hitbox while jumping because the game considers them to be above should height. Star Fists are over if the worst weapons for the run and jump method because of this paired with the fact that you need to be close to her as you mentioned. It's good to have multiple approaches but also to play to the strength of your build. Imo, Malenia is maybe the only boss in the game that's harder with star fists.
The time I learnt that if I didn't want to get frustrated and resent what I was doing I had to stop focusing on winning and just focusing on going through it and learning is really funny, because it wasn't a legendary boss like Malenia or Radahn or an older boss of note like Orphan of Kos or Sword Saint Isshin... It was going through the snowfield to the two asshole tigers in DS2, dealing with those reindeers was threatening to make me tear out hair every run.
funny timing, I just beat Malenia my second time ever. Last time I stunlocked her to death with my mimic tear after four attempts, so I didn't learn any of her moves. This time I beat her solo, but my learning curve was split, as I fought her with deflecting hardtear and guard counters. Waterfowl was also my main concern, of course, but it turned out, you can parry it in it's entirety, if you space each flurry correctly, because otherwise she can dash behind you and negate your deflections. With the UGS and guard counter talisman it was easy to outdamage her life steal. Not anything on the level of a RL1 win, but still felt pretty sick.
As a certified Malenia hater yet ironically a Radahn apologist (even pre nerf all of his attacks seem a lot more intuitive to dodge than Waterfowl ever will to my brain) I gotta commend both the effort behind runs like these, and the brass balls it takes to allow yourself to say you still dislike it, I don't know how heated debates in the challenge run community get but I usually hear more Water Fowl apologists coming from there than anywhere else lol
I really appreciate the word choice on the title. I'm sooooo over the whole clickbait practice and "THE [thing] YOU'VE NEVER [verb'ed] BEFORE” type of titles. we need more individuals, not assimilated minds.
You ask for recommendations for more content like this, and this might be out of left field, but I think that your approach to games, mentality, and the learning process would go wild in Spelunky 2. The journey seems up your alley, you'll find it interesting at the very least. Spelunky 2 is a brutal and wacky game that completely forbids any progress, until you meet the game on its terms, learn its tricks, learn how to execute, and be clever/resourceful enough that you can perform under pressure even when conditions aren't always exactly the same. Spelunky is the game that helped me internalize the goal-oriented improvement mentality that you MUST have for any difficult skill (fighting games, in my case), because it only ever rewards you with progress once you can overcome your frustration, and demonstrate that you've learned something. It can actually teach a stubborn player how to expect failure and see it as a learning opportunity, in a way that I don't see many games pull off successfully. It helps that you don't really "beat" Spelunky, either, much like you don't "beat" any other skill. All of your suffering is intrinsic, as it should be 🙏 In any case, absolute banger content, despite the neuroscience illiteracy. Your video game critique video completely turned my opinion on Elden Ring around overnight. I had a really bad time with DS3, and probably still would bc I'm just not a fan of the boss design, but that gave me a poor perception of Elden Ring as soon as it came out, and I ate up everything that Joseph Anderson and Feeble King were saying about it. I've been watching yours and Loopine's videos, though, and I feel like I get it now. I'm gonna give the game a proper shake one day
I've actually got a list of games I'd like to play for the channel and Spelunky 2 is on it! I've never played Spelunky 1 or 2 so would be keen to check it out. Glad you're interested in checking out the game! It's pretty darn good.
Splendid video! Many new learnings. But I think there is one question to pull one last curtain away to reveal what‘s behind. Would you have started or kept trying the close combat spin movent to counter her waterfowl dance if you had not known about it from an external source?
Probably not. Not sure I would have thought to try it but who knows. I think with enough attempts I might have figured it out like an infinite number of monkeys with typewriters doing Shakespeare but it would take a long while I'd think. I would have most likely just tried to force it at range or thrown frost pots again. But I do think learning from the community is a big part of the game so the obscurity of how to dodge it isn't such as much a concern for me as it is for many.
I might be the only person on the planet that liked waterfowl from the start. I just really wanted to learn how to dodge it and when I learned, I helped so many people.... although it didnt help the hosts dodge it
@@A-Rune-bear I still cant. my strategy has always been run away for the first bit (requires a bit of distance at first) then 2 dodges directly through it. idk about the other methods but that is what worked for me and I stuck to it this whole time. I just make sure to always give her a bit of space between attacks and never let my stamina deplete entirely
For me, I like to move my head to match the boss's movements in order to remember what they're doing and how I need to dodge. It works great for delayed combos like Gaius's 9-hitter.
Glad that waterfowl and other difficult moves in Elden Ring exists to introduce some problem solving into a combat encounter. DS3 movesets were too simple for an already simple combat system.
I think Ds3 did really interesting gimmics, I remember struggling with pontiffs twin and soul of cinder transition’s. But i agree that the combat is simple when compared to bloodborne that came before it.
@matman000000 I figured out a solution on my own that avoided enough damage to survive, that was satisfying enough for me. Definitely an understandable opinion though.
@@matman000000 you don't need outside help, there are lots of different methods and most of them are far more intuitive than the spin strat. The average person would even incorporate an ash of war or blocking if it really troubled them, there are a dozen different ashes of war that can do this in addition to spells, incants, shields and even strength weapons with decent guard boost.
Huh, that’s interesting… Gred doesn’t like fighting her because he finds her moves unfun to dodge, which is the exact opposite of my feelings lol Waterfowl is the worst for sure, and her second phase is DEFINITELY not super enjoyable, but her first phase? With no waterfowl? 😩 it’s the most fun I’ve had fighting almost any boss in game. I think it’s probably because I had to really learn her moves well to live, unlike a lot of bosses before her where getting hit a few times wasn’t as big a deal. Idk her move set just flowed for me, I found being able to dodge and weave through her attacks really satisfying. I was using zwei but I almost never got a poise break lol, played pretty safe It’s times like this I wish there was a way to replay bosses after you beat them once (notgodefroynotgodefroynotgode-), like a menu or arena type area where you can fight certain bosses again. Could be a cool use for the great runes. Obviously this is just my personal desire as I’m too lazy to have to replay all the way to Haligtree just to fight her again, a second play through or NG+ are options sure but sometimes you just get that fever for one boss lol. Great vid!
I actually suck, haha. Smash bros is what I play the most and I'd say I'm a little better than average but not by much. I've tried to learn Street Fighter but my brain hurts from all the moves. Maybe one day I'll give it more of a shot but I'm really not good.
Good video, but the bit about her fight being all about backing off is just not true. During your winning try you constantly miss out on openings when she doesn't have hyper armor and is staggarable out of her attack, you also don't punish her hyper armor, anti-stun lock kick in the second phase, which is the attack that keeps the fight flowing. Still, overall great video, looking forward to more content from you.
Yeah I noticed a lot just from watching it. Honestly I wasn’t expecting to get her when I did. I still had a lot to learn. Again I honestly felt like reloading the save but… yeah. Weird ending I know but.. sometimes that’s the video game!
i havent finished but i fucking love what your saying about remembering which ability to dodge in the moment i am a bit confused about how you said you spent 100 hours on her before but it sounds like you still havent figured out wfd here
I watched LMSH so many times to understand how to dodge. Still can't consistently dodge WFD and that damn forward step slicey move gets me everytime!😤 I also still don't understand the whole move around her to confuse the targeting
The dodge that LMSH does only works as a phantom in co-op because her tracking lags behind. The circle method isn't really confusing her targeting. Bosses often will track you to a certain point then stop. This happens with WFD when you circle around her far enough she will basically stop tracking you momentarily and fly off in the other direction. It is quite difficult to do though and takes some practice. The easiest way to constantly dodge it is to run away and jump the moment she touches the ground. Hope that helps.
Yeah Malenia is definitely harder than Radahn, even prenerf Radahn and it's really because of waterfowl, I'm not yet confident enough for a RL1 playthrough, that tiny health bar is a big concern lol but working my way there, maybe I'll do it but I'm probably not gonna beat Malenia at RL1
I agree with you so much. I want to like malenia but her waterfowl makes the fight reliant on rng. Btw what other fromsoftware games have you played? They are all incredible
@GredGlintstone It's so dystopian how they add those onto everything. This video is clearly not even about climate change, but you mention it once and they have to make sure everyone knows the "correct" view on it.
inb4 all the cognitive load jokes.
To anyone wondering about the weird misinformation statement: UA-cam is just as confused as I am. Apparently, it's not something that can just be easily removed (?) and needs to be escalated for someone to look into it. It does seem to be a mistake. I don't say anything that contradicts the misinformation statement and only mention climate change in a list of things that contribute to cognitive load. Maybe Google's AI is a Malenia stan. Who knows.
To all the Malenia lovers: You're valid. I'm sure there are lots of ways I could have optimised to make the fight more interactive. I didn't use guides on this one so that I could learn strictly through trial and error and maybe I would have enjoyed it more if I hadn't done so. But I've fought a lot of fights in much the same way and, for me, she doesn't rank among the best. She's not the worst but I've fought her more than any other boss in the game and... I still don't like her. It definitely has a lot to do with how the fight gels with my playstyle more than anything else but I had to be honest about my experience.
To all the science nerds: For some reason during the section where I talk about long-term potentiation, I say "When we process information that fires a chemical reaction and neurons zip along our synapses". This is very wrong and I don't know how this made it into the edit because it's not what I wrote in the script. I must have had a big brain fart when recording this and not noticed until just now after uploading it. This is gonna keep me awake for a month.
It is not the neurons that zip along our synapses. It is the information. The synapses work as a bridge between neurons and connect them. They are on either side of the "highway". My script says: "When we process information, that fires a chemical reaction IN OUR neurons and that zips along our synapses." This is a very simplistic explanation of a very complicated process and it was meant to provide some brief context of what is happening at a biopsychological level.
Biopsychology isn't really my strength but I know better than to say neurons zip along synapses. That's like saying New York travels over the bridge to New Jersey. It's a silly thing to say. Please, please don't use this video to help you with your neuroscience paper. You will be laughed out of the room.
At the end of the day, the biopsychological processes are only discussed to demonstrate the neuroscience of learning, and why repetition helps us learn. For the vast majority of people, this slip-up isn't going to matter but it's still incorrect so I wanted to let you know.
Thanks for watching the video. Much love.
Gred
For my pedagogy degree I had to study and write about some of things you talk about in the video, while your explanations are more somatic than how I think of these things, I think you did a good job explaining learning to the extent you did. I actually got such a flashback to studying for this I dug up an old powerpoint I made to explain repetition to justify daily lesson recaps. I had never really thought of learning in the context of elden ring bosses but obviously you're learning at all times so it makes sense to me. Using the old lingo we used at uni; you are first learning declarative knowledge, turning it into procedural knowledge and gaining fluency and automaticity.
I reckon that in regular play, the learning curve is quite different from a challenge run and the effects of learning the fight might make winning seem like a total fluke. When you learn when to dodge the bosses basic combo and when to punish, the fight becomes radically different and might end fast.
about dodging waterfowl, the jumping away trick doesn't only work on medium range, it works at close range as well, I've no hit this fight with a slow zweihander and played aggressively, I was always able to dodge it at close range this way even when I was recovering from an attack.
Peak gaming talk ahead
Time for listening, and therefore enjoying
the idea of your memory 'running out of bandwidth' reminds me of the mental stack in fighting games. it's having to keep track and account of all these different variables like spacing in neutral, mix-ups, 50/50s, jump ins to the extent where certain options that would otherwise be reactable (like drive impact in SF6) aren't reacted to even in the highest level of play. your memory simply doesn't have the space to hold and process all the knowledge available so that things that may seem obvious to dodge or block, aren't done. then we end up beating ourselves up for not doing the so-called 'obvious' 😂. great video!
I was also going to comment about the mental stack lol
@@JehrkeFR me too, its honestly kinda wild how similar souls games and fighting games are as learning experiences, even though FGs are so much more unpredictable. mental stack in particular is beating peoples' asses in tekken 8, but i can attest that the deliberate practice/repetition and mental game gred talks about in these videos are monumental in the learning process and enjoyment of any game overall
5:09 Same. I don't know what it is with me, but I tend to have to learn a boss much more closely than others.
So it took me 629 attempts to kill Malenia on my first playthrough.
(which did drive me a little bit insane)
By comparison I only took 320 attempts to kill Consort Radahn, which actually felt almost relaxing.
Like there was never this same feeling that he was as insurmountable as Malenia.
That's partly due to Waterfowl but also due to her insane complexity under the hood, like the ability to string together combos in basically any way she wants, stagger cancels, frametraps, stance break immunity on certain attacks etc.
I did feel that I had an ocean of knowledge checks to get through without even knowing what they were.
To anyone saying she's only hard because of Waterfowl:
I envy you, because you haven't had to experience as much pain as I have at her hands.
Finally someone else gives Malenia’s moveset the respect it deserves. She isn’t just a one trick pony with waterfowl dance, it an extremely fast paced duel where you have to play around the mixups she can throw at you with proactive dodging and positioning.
And that’s honestly what I adore about the fight, it actually feels like two battle hardened warriors pulling out all their tricks to throw the other off their game, Malenia really nails that feeling for me.
This is a great video, like usual. Loved the way you break down the learning process via scientific evidence and clearly explain all of your thought processes.
be wary of long read
first off, well done! Good job on both beating the most challenging boss in the game fair and square AND making a banger of a video in the process! You made me realize how video games of all things expose our human psychology. That one bit about how our attention spans are fucked resonated with me so much.
Made me want to remember my Malenia runs, too. For some reason, I can't work in short intervals, and binge everything all the time. I beat Malenia three times, no summons, and my second and third victories were done in one long sitting. Even if I'm angry and frustrated, I just can't stop. I want to keep pushing forward. Idk if it's healthy or not.
I LOVE Malenia. I remember reaching a small rotting lake inside of the Haligtree, looking down and realizing where exactly am I. I almost reached Malenia. I knew she's a very difficult boss (something something waterfowl) and a legendary figure in lore, so going through the for wall and watching her cutscene made my heart go crazy. I was PUMPED to fight her, and show what defeat feels like. She still is the boss I'm looking forward to fight the most - the atmosphere is unmatched.
On my first playthrough, I had a sort of hybrid mage build? Although I did put most of my points into VIG and END, so not much was left for mind and int. Moonveil right hand, regal scepter left hand. Most of my flasks were crimson because I prefer to stay up close and personal. I tried bombing her with everything I had, but it left me empty-handed by the time Phase 2 began. So I went pure physical in phase 1 without changing my build. A katana on katana fight, no AoW, no magic, no bullshit. Second phase though... all bets were off. Malenia with her rot attacks, and me with my magic spam. I didn't learn her second phase at all, I just crushed her with blue magic waves. Took 4 hours in total.
Second playthrough was even cheesier. Frenzied pyromancer. Tactical eye laser and a miniature sun to her face. She never dodges frenzied burst, and only dodges the initial cast of flame of the fell god. All that's left to do is to bait her into the explosion. Sometimes she literally just walks into it and falls flat on her ass. I honestly felt bad tossing a blind woman around like that. Still took 2,5 hours.
My third run however was by far the coolest. I decided to revisit and perfect my spellblade build. Got myself a carian sorcery sword, which works both a sword and a staff, with low damage being a trade off. This, however, freed up my left hand for a shield. Put carian retaliation on it and began to learn how to parry things.
Parrying Malenia gave me a completely new perspective to the fight. Some of her most difficult attacks were the most simple. I kept on trying to parry the kick knowing full well that it's not possible, and I mostly died to her basic sword swings. The one where she swings her katana downwards is SO quick, I don't think I have the reaction time to parry it. And if I miss a parry, I will be open for the next swing, which will most likely kill me. So I ended up either taking this attack to a shield, or dodging. Everything else was straightforward enough once I got the timings down. Parrying allowed me to stay in Malenia's face all the time and never back away. It also made me feel like my character is actually a better swordswoman, Malenia's true match.
I still died. A lot. But I beat her kinda??? sorta??? hitless, though I took a couple of hits to the shield. This run definitely wasn't perfect, and i STILL have no idea how to dodge waterfowl up close, I ended up tanking the first flurry with a shield and dodging the secong and third flurries. But it was definitely my best and most fair run against her.
Also, I have no idea how people are doing RL1 runs. I think I will go absolutely mad if I have to do most bosses basically hitless. You, good sir, are awesome. Thank you once again for the research you've done, and a great video.
8:15 to 9:30 killed me, your commentary keeps getting better
I love the knowledge on psychology and memory you’ve shared with me today. Take it easy
fire video. I really love your scripted stuff!! always fun to learn a little while playing/watching your favorite videogames
Great video to play in the background while im doing anything, love your voice
Great video, and congrats on the run! One thing that I find fascinating is the move she does at 30:22, her disengage. This was the move that unlocked the whole fight for me, especially phase 1. Because I realized that I had seen it before back in Sekiro and it made such a strong impression on me and learning it, understanding it for what it is, and capitalizing on it was what helped me beat that game charmless easily after first bashing my head against a brick wall.
And sure, there are loads of other bosses in this game that performs the same disengage, but when Malenia did it something triggered in me and I started playing hyper aggressively, much more than you did in your run, and found that I'd get it to trigger more and more when I did.
I don't like Malenia and I don't like waterfowl because it makes every other part of her fight harder in the anticipation of it. But in my last run she was more terrified of me than I was of her.
Whatever this video is, is what your channel should be about.
you would be surprised by how much good positioning and jumping will affect the fight even without waterfowl. You can punish her kick by just walking backwards, you can punish her idle by just hitting her, her double swing by getting behind and charging a heavy, jump attack over her small scarlet rot aoe after it "blooms" etc
Hey mate-- me again. Not as much words to give but glad to see you trying the UA-cam thing! I hope that you don't feel discouraged based on views cause I believe the act of expression makes it worth it.
Enjoyed this one too, you're well-spoken and thoughtful. :)
What made Malenia fun for me to fight was implementing the Bloody Helice ash of war into my dodge/punish, and then, the big one - the Deflecting Hardtear. To be fair that one made the entire game more fun for me because I'm all about the deflecting playstyle (bet no one could have guessed from my pic), but even with her health regen it was such a fun and engaging way to fight her. I think it's really related to me being able to fight her more on my terms and in a way that I enjoy, because as you say, simply putting all my focus on playing around Waterfowl wasn't enough to be fun.
i think you pretty much can make a video about any topic you find engaging as long as is made in this type of narration hehe. It is very enjoyable wathching a video about learning a boss, a critique of critics or be the psychology of rage but what made it good to me is the way you present it.
Found this channel through the Joseph Anderson video (as I’m sure many did, lol) and am absolutely enthralled by your approach to content!
Wow, thank you!
First of all, awesome video, i really enjoyed it.
I have to admit though, your final conclusion about her pained me a little bit😅.
Ive defeated her around fifteen times on my own playthroughs, including at lvl 1, and a lot more often solo as a summon. Shes probably the boss im the most familiar with in the entire game.
And i have to tell you, her basic moveset is genuinely incredible. It allows you to just roll backwards safely on most of her combos, but there are countless punish windows that open up once you know how to exploit them, which enables you to really stay aggressive the entire fight, while still being completely safe doing it.
My favorite example is her special move where she dashes forward with a triple slash that frametraps you when rolling backwards at medium load, with either a quick or a fast followup slash.
The first thing about this move is that you can actually tell from her dash animation which followup she will do, which allows you to either safely roll into the slow one to get a charged attack with a faster weapon, or jump over it with a heavy jump attack when a charged heavy would be too slow. But it really gets crazy with the fast followup. If you roll forwards slightly left of her, then immediately start sprinting, youre able to avoid all five of the possible combo continuations, with four of them being punishable. Finding out these intricate details made the fight more enjoyable everytime i beat her, and i really hope for you to have the same experience.
Shes definitely one of my favorite bosses of the entire series, and shes by far the most rewarding to optimize
Who knows! Maybe next time it'll click for me but it didn't on this one unfortunately.
@ im glad to hear youre giving her another go, wish you the best👍
Always open to changing my mind overtime 😌
I learn bosses similarly as you do, and act in a similar chill way when I do. I learn with short sessions. I've done a Malenia RL1 as well and could relate to nearly all of your discoveries (and flinched whenever you did during the final fight). And I've got a very similar opinion about Malenia, which I also developed over my many hours of dying to her.
This is a weirdly surreal video. Thanks for making it!
9:46 Really great point. I think the increasing complexity of these games in addition to our cognitive loads definitely influences our perception of difficulty. There was a time when I could come home from school and place all of my focus solely on Dark Souls. Yesterday, I managed to beat Promise Consort Radahn during my hour lunch break and it was a rage-inducing struggle. My alarm was going off in the run that I actually managed to defeat him in. It felt like I just wasn't able to adapt to the fight even though I knew what I should be doing differently. Cognitive load is for sure a massive factor in our performance and ability to adapt.
Love this video! The way you structure your learning process is really cool, and definitely something that could work with other things too, like learning a new piece of music. Looking forward to what you do with the channel!
Vow of the Indomitable made WFD so much easier and fun for me man. I see the appeal in doing the dodge without AOW and all of that, but fighting her RL1 without getting hit was already an enormous challenge, I really felt like I didn't need to make it even harder. I tried the methods you showed and got her multiple times, but vow of the indomitable is just the fucking best lol
@@rayzu4380 bruh I could never got vow of the indomitable to work for me, it doesn’t last long enough, I thought about it, tried it, didn’t work…also I have to quickly switch to shield from 2 handing and maybe that’s why I fuck it up
@@PeterEhik I think you have to use the AoW then roll right after.
also shouldn't swapping to your shield automatically stop 2 handing your weapon? just press left on the d pad once.
I remember being really frustrated by Malenia my first playthrough, but each subsequent run and been a lot easier. It's weird how the ability to do better on bosses crystallizes the more time you spend away after getting experience fighting them. A lot of this is down to using the correct tools (cold great stars with wild strikes did WORK).
Great video, I love how you end up connecting our memory usage in videogames to our real life memory usage. How cognitive load can affect our memory not just in games but in real life. Reminds me that I need to stop looking at my phone when work needs to get done lol.
I wanted to share my Malenia experience too. On my first playthrough, I was pretty stubborn and basically refused to use anything but my Lordsworn Greatsword (literally the first when I picked up) with no status effects and specifically chose not to use mimic tear like I had for a few bosses before her. The greatsword ended up being pretty good for mini staggers, but it was still a 4 hour slog of about 70 attempts. I didn't know how to deal with waterfowl. In the end, I decided to block it with a greatshield. I would pull it out right when I saw her go up in the air, then switch back to two hand afterwards. I didn't find it to be a fun way to deal with the attack, especially since she healed off of it, but it was consistent.
When I did my level 1 run of the game, I decided I wanted to beat her with just a dagger and a parry shield. I tried again to learn to dodge waterfowl. I just couldn't get it consistent. I caved and used bloodhound step (pre-nerf). Even then I had trouble learning the move. Also parrying her is really hard, that quick two piece killed me so much. It took 250 attempts over 3 days. And that was with me practicing in parallel on my NG+ character.
After seeing you truly learn on your own how to dodge waterfowl, I want to give it another shot. But at the same time, I feel that fighting Malenia is just about playing around waterfowl, and it's just not fun. But I'll probably give it another shot, some day
Fantastic video! So empowering xD
If I may add two pieces of advice that aid the learning process for RL1:
1) Practice with a high HP character that deals minimal damage and has minimal poise. Never kill the boss with that character (unless you can revive them). This results in very long fights where you see everything that can happen. High HP prevents resetting the fight all the time from frequent dying. Talismans should be defensive. The minimal poise is important because it gives you a clear visual clue for your mistakes.
2) For two-phase bosses: have an upgraded weapon ready specifically to end phase one quickly, then switch to your main (un-upgraded) weapon in phase two. Do this step when you understand phase one well enough.
There are a few other good tips, but I find these two especially useful.
incredible video as always. malenia is my favorite boss in any of the souls games, maybe outside of gael (his music is just too good) i think she in particular is a boss that only gets more fun the more you understand her moveset, and how to exploit it, where as other bosses feel "cheesed" when you find a weakpoint in there ai (most massive enemies like dragons) she feels rewarding. understanding what moves you can jump over and when you can punish her because shes staggerable was the most enjoyable feeling ive had in these games.
Congrats on a well earned victory. Sometimes they don't scratch the itch for whatever reason but it was still the success of all previous failures and that makes it worthy.
If you want the exhilaration of dancing with bosses then try the immortal journey in Sekiro. It's the hardest trial and concurrently the only gauntlet with no reward at the end, other than the satisfaction of knowing you've achieved it. I would absolutely watch that. Subbed.
Imagine if Malania just always started with Waterfoul. I think it could've potentially led to faster learning of the move and people would get good at it way faster, possibly leading to less hate towards the move.
Great video Gled, my goat. ❤
Ps i got my computer to run elden ring wahoo!
@@jacobholt6347 Nice dude! Might have an RL1 guide for you before long if you want to try that.
Problem is 90% of the difficulty in figuring out Waterfowl (on your own) is finding out just how many situations she can do it in and that you have to be ready for it at almost any moment. That's why the most common complaint with Waterfowl, or at least one of the most common, is that it can sometimes be used at times when it'll be undodgeable. Obviously the answer is that you have to avoid committing to attacks when she can use waterfowl, but that means having to relearn parts of a fight you thought you'd already learned whenever she reveals a new situation she can pull it out in, when her pulling the move out is already rare compared to the rest of her moves.
I guessed the primary method for dodging waterfowl after the first time I saw it, minus standing still and letting the last attack miss you. That, however, was nowhere near the necessary information I needed to form a methodology for fighting Malenia, and the only way to form that methodology is to fight her over and over and over. Which doesn't have to be the way these games are designed, it's not how Sekiro is designed, for example, Sekiro gives you all the information you need to deal with every attack (minus chip damage from enemies with fire weapons) as soon as you've seen it once.
Lots of good stuff here. When I beat consort (after ten hours) with the same dodge-attack limitation, one of the biggest things was reminding myself between every attempt that I wasn’t going to beat him that session.
Took a lot of the pressure off, which took out a lot of frustration. Eventually, despite my insistence that it wasn’t going to happen tonight, I did kill him!
I don't want to spoil this video, because it is amazing, I just want to say when I saw the beginning of 288 I knew wtf was about to go down! Impressive!
Ah! A 39 minutes video of speaking about peak by a peak UA-camr! Finally! An actual use for the UA-cam Notifications bell lol.
Honestly, Malenia is still my favorite boss in the Soulsborne series, it's a boss that I would define as "'ENDURE", it is this word that defines her fight in every sense of the word, at the beginning, you feel like you're so weak & insignificant compared to her, then with time, you start to hate her, then despise her, then you begin to internalize her moveset inch-by-inch, you start to understand how to avoid Waterfowl Dance, oh you dodged it successfully with medium-rolls? You thought it was by chance? Well then how about you make it almost consistently? You think you can't do it, but you can, and you see yourself beginning to be in-tune with her perfect flow & dance, now it's like they give you multiple sheets containing musical notes, and then you begin performing them on a Piano in perfect succession, whenever note comes up (as in, her moves), you execute it perfectly, you begin to even predict what her upcoming move is based on your positioning relative to her, as if you know how that music sounds & you begin to execute it without even reading the notes in front of you.
She'll always have a special place in my heart, it is a fight that I hope From Software replicate in the future, ofc there are some nitpicks I have with her, some idiosyncrasies & dare I say, a bit too arbitrary accounting of her poise. Waterfowl Dance is a move I grew to despise, but now I kinda like the attack. But overall this fight is pure cinema.
😉
her poise is really simple to understand, her aerial and more powerful moves get hyper armour and just like any other boss she recovers over time
@@Ghorda9 Of course! Yeah you’re right.
Honestly, I think it would have been a very different video if she did the move in the fight where I killed her lol. But who knows, that's just speculation.
I definitely like many other fights much more but I love the presentation and OST. I didn't talk about the art in the fight (not a critique) but there's some really cool stuff in it. Malenia is an iconic character design.
@@GredGlintstone Yes absolutely! Still loved the video regardless, sometimes I’m just too passionate I blabber about something too much. 😅
Cool strat. I did a run similar this: zwei, no hit, rl1, forgot to max upgrade it and was too lazy to do so.
It fun to see how strategies differ between runs. Most roll out and wait for the combo to end. I said "the more time she's staggered, the less time she can hit me" and just went gung hoe with the posture breaks. I just looked up a guide on how to dodge waterfolw without running away and practiced until it was just another move (even learned to get a rolling r1 during it).
is the rolling R1 during the second flurry?
Only seen 2 videos so far and they are complete bangers
10:57 it wasn't until you explained this that i realize this what i do when I'm frustrated by a move i can't learn. i take off all my armor and force myself to get better at dodging. If i try to tank it, i'll die. its actually how i managed to beat consort radahn so cheers for that!
Bro, I've just started the video but I already need to comment...
I too beat Malenia RL1 a long time ago and have since pretty much ignored the encounter. Like you i thought it had some good qualities and some poor. However, I recently had a long discussion with someone about WFD (in the comments of your video actually) and it prompted me to revisit the encounter, again at RL1. Since then I've beaten her at RL1 many times with several different weapons, I've drastically improved at the encounter for example my first RL1 was 15+ minutes and I got hit 3x, since then I've done it hitless in less than half that time with lower damage. The difference is remarkable.
After doing this, I will say that while i stand by most if not all of my previous criticisms, the fight has become a favorite of mine and I absolutely love it. It's EXTREMELY addictive and her kit is one of the most engaging and satisfying to deal with in all of gaming all while offering an absurd amount of player freedom and skill expression.
I saw a video from OceaTwo where he said that Malenia let's a good player be good and I really think that sums it up well.
One of my favorite bosses ever tbh and I'm thankful that fellow argued with me about WFD even if their points were rubbish because it prompted me to revisit the encounter.
I'm now working on a RL1 +0, no buffs, AuX, AoW, great runes ECT and when you can match her pace 10+ minutes at a time without being hit there's not much in gaming that feels better TBH.
You guys and Loopine video helped
me so much against Waterflow Dance... Thanks I must say.
I would never knew the power of running and jumping otherwise.
@@JoseViktor4099
Any time my guy, I've had lots of help and advice and I love to pay it forwards!
I love waterfowl dance.
@@Stanzbey69
I agree, I also think that the whole 'wfd is the only difficult thing about her' thing is totally untrue...🙄
@ that’s absolutely ridiculous, just another misconception. They’re so plentiful with this game.
Malenia’s combo cancels are a big part of her moveset, i love her mixups. Maybe that’s why erlang is my favorite boss ever. His combo flow chart is ridiculous but so so fun
I spent a lot of time trying to beat this fight with parries, hoping that they'd give me an edge. I found that I got to the point where her whole kit is trivial except for waterfowl. I did however love it everytime she throws her sword out to her left and prepares to charge at you, because I know you can parry it and it always felt like a high noon moment. This fight is some of the most fun and deepest misery i've experienced in souls.
I really thought about parrying her but decided against it. Next time!
Great video! Malenia is my favorite Souls boss, but I get why most people don't enjoy Waterfowl Dance. It could use, like, half a second of extra air time before she starts swinging imo
1-2 more seconds just for players who are very close to her
Even though I love malenia I do agree with some of the criticism in this video, she kinda forces you to bait out waterfowl while being long range, which feels too artificial for me, but the feeling of beating her is unlike any other. Great video, looking forward to see what you do next
To be fair you can dodge it point blank, it goes just about like this:
When she acends, lock off the camera and do a 360 around her (she still has collision so make sure your spin is wide enough). Then roll even further in the rotation you were taking and then dodge away from malenia's current position. Lock back on and do a precise roll for flurry 2. Finally, she should go over you, but for safety you can roll forward, wait for your camera to snap back, then roll backwards.
@@Mr.Starlight_gaming yeah that strategy is pretty useful because its not that hard to pull off, but even though its one of the only ways that you can dodge waterfowl at close range, it feels like im abusing the AI and again, artificial. It is a technique that the devs surely didnt know it was possible, but if it works, it works.
You can at point blank range also
- Run and time a jump to doge the first attack then roll the rest
- Light roll/bloodhound step away away
- Shield
There's nothing really forcing you to play at range unless that's how you want to fight.
@@tucke3 you don't need to do that at all, you can just run and jump waterfowl even if you're just over a meter away. Even if you're too close for comfort you can still block it with a shield, strength weapon or spell/ash of war.
I feel like the main reason I enjoyed her so much was one because of that mental game you mentioned, it felt really unique to the rest of the game even if her moves are mostly nothing too special the overall fight is, but also because of how I play the game in general
It was my first souls game, and really the only other games I had played consistently over the past couple years before hand were minecraft and Genshin (and doom eternal, but that was even farther in the past). Needless to say I struggled at first lol. But before I played, I had heard the whole debate about summons, and since the starter summons are more work than they're worth imo, I just learned the bosses at first. I had so much fun with Margit, even if I probably died an embarrassing amount of times, because I felt that synergy you get when fighting these bosses. Slowly learning the moves and WATCHING myself get better. Then even though Godrick still took me a good chunk of attempts he felt 100 times easier. I continued this well into the game, no summons. I made it into nokron for ranni's quest, got mimic tier and practically spit on it.
But then, I entered the fight with those god damn Gargoyles. I'm pretty sure I was under leveled, but at the same time one on one they were a piece of cake, but I could never kill the first one fast enough. It felt as if it was DESIGNED for you to use a mimic tear, and I think I even saw a message that basically meant try mimic tier so I caved, and that broke that synergy because after that any minor inconvenience that damn summon whispered to me like the green goblin mask. It got to the point where when I was approaching Maliketh and had to fight that draconic tree sentinel with no summon, I realized that not only did I lose that synergy, but I was so used to having my summon take the enemy's attention that I was just bad again. It was comparable to my first few Margit attempts. After this I went into Maliketh's arena with the intent of using him to regain that skill- and he is NOT the boss for that. I struggle with him more than Malenia (still better than those godforsaken gargoyles. I prefer the godskin duo I hate those stoney bastards).
I continue using mimic tier and not using it, struggling to find a balance, I beat the main game and kill the elden beast, then I make it to the halig tree. After getting about halfway through I realize that I am GARBAGE and that if I can't even make it through the normal enemies, Malenia will make me cry and scream. So I make a deal with myself, before I beat Malenia or even find Mohg, I decide that instead of just rune farming and over leveling myself, I go into new game plus, and use this as an opportunity to relearn my skills.
I still use mimic tier from time to time, but since so many of the early game bosses are still stupid easy in NG+, it eased the desire to use mimic tier except for really annoying bosses (THOSE STUPID GARGOYELS) or ones that I didn't really need to get the full experience again like Rykard, and eventually made my way back to the Halig tree. Before I had even started the game, I had made a pact that I would not use mimic tier for her, and I did not. No cheeses, just an honest build. On NG+. And I LOVED it. I got mad a few times, but at that point I just realized I was getting overloaded and would take breaks. At one point I just left her to do something else in the game then came back later. I even did co-op stuff and ended up killing her in someone else's word first lol. But eventually, I did it. And that synergy I talked about with Margit, where I watched myself get better, I don't think there will ever be a boss that perfects that feeling more than Malenia, especially as a first time souls player. I didn't use any stupidly good weapons like rivers of blood or moonviel, but instead I used elenora's poleblade, which is stupid fun to fight her with. The ash does really high stance damage, but it takes a minute to start and she can easily knock you out of it so it still requires patience and thought. No other boss in the game made me feel nearly as accomplished, although I feel like if I didn't use mimic tier on messmer he probably would've given me a similar feeling.
Oh and remember how before I said that I went into NG+ before killing Malenia or finding Mohg? Yeah I went through the whole DLC on NG+. I would've given Radahn the same treatment as Malenia but I got to him like two days after his nerf so I felt like there wasn't even a point lol. With mimic tier I beat him in four tries, and the only reason it took that many was because of his absurd damage in ng+ (I had super buff armor, almost all the sculdtree fragments, the physical damage resistance talisman, something else for holy I don't remember what and he still killed me in like 2-3 hits.) I feel like damage with Malenia was much more balanced, even with her high numbers. I was also in NG+ tho so I kinda asked for it from both of them lol
I’ve done over 10 runs of Elden Ring and fought her each time. Always got her down within a day max.
People always say you need to run and jump to avoid Waterfowl, but I’ve always just ran from both the first AND second flurry, then dodged into the third, and away from the fourth. This has worked for me ever since I first mastered the fight. If she’s too close to outrun, I circle her and use her forwards momentum to my advantage by dodging into her at an angle, which is admittedly less successful on average but still keeps me alive most of the time
One way you can dodge the Waterfowl Dance is to run away and jump over the first hit, then dodge/space the rest. Some pitfalls, though: jumping too early will cause you to get hit on the drop, and jumping too late will not give you enough height to move your hitbox out of the way.
Yeah I figured that out towards the end of the process but I only included one or two examples of me doing it I think. Definitely helped a lot.
Your content is awesome man:) I'm down for whatever as long as you keep that positivity, it's refreshing. ❤
great video. Fun and informative. brings back some memories too.
I remember using night comet and just being able to remove like... half her health bar while she was just... walking around. And at that point I thought that was too cheesy... and to not ruin my experience I chose to change tactics. What I ended up using was Adula's moonblade and that turned out to be quite a fun choice. Felt fitting too.
Waterfowl... yeah, can feel kinda bs... tho it did feel very good to finally dodge.
To me, Malenia always felt weirdly fair is spite of all the bs. Idk, everything just clicks. It feels right. And it was fun... in spite of the failure.
The one I've not beaten in the entirety of this game is... the final boss of the dlc... and frankly, the main reason for that is... I just don't have anything positive motivating me to move forward besides doing it so I can say I did it. There's a lot I could say about it but I won't overbloat the comment
So crazy to be there when some great youtuber is born.
Like how are those your starter projects.
Hey I’ve got adhd to. I thought this video was so well done and captivating. keep up the uploads please 😁
Just a small bit of advice if anyone hasn't noticed, as far as I can tell, when she's in neutral but she's sidestepping as opposed to walking forward you can always punish her safely with a jump attack. One tiny thing that really helps when you want to fight her aggressively.
also if she runs towards you, you can walk backwards to avoid her kick and punish her with a quick light attack
And in phase 2 when she does her slam attack rot pillar, go behind her to give her a good charged attack
@@A-Rune-bear or jump attack over it if you end up infront instead of behind
Also running attacks are great against her, she taught me how goated they are.
I am a huge fan of the malenia level 1 fight. I actually made a save file dedicated to letting me fight her at level 1 when ever I want and I just alt f4 if I win. The way I dodge waterfowl dance seems pretty effective, but takes some practice. If I am at mid to far range, I just run from the first flurry, jumping just before it reaches me. If I am close, I swap weapons to a bloodhound step dagger in my off hand, then just as she starts moving, I use the skill at a specific up and left angle. For the second flurry, I just roll through. The third flurry is interesting because it’s actually easier to dodge on medium load. I play on light load and have for a while, so I forget the medium load dodge, but I think you just roll back. On lightload, you end up rolling too far, so she catches you most of the time. The way I work around this is by not rolling at all. Just before the she lunges at me, I do a weird pivot backwards in a shape resembling a fish hook. That seems to work almost every time. The one catch with this strategy is I have like a 30% chance to get hit with one hit of the flurry. This will not kill you if you are using ritual shield (which I personally recommend as it lets you live one hit in any of the multihits and when combined with the the opaline hardtear you can even live some single hit attacks). I still haven’t come up with an easy, consistent strategy for the clone attack. I run as far back as I can, jumping over clones if necessary, then there are only three attacks left to dodge, and I can’t do it fully consistently, but it’s the best I’ve figured out. Also, just general level one advice, you should pretty much always have the ritual shield talisman and ritual sword talisman equipped, ritual shield lets you live one hit on most endgame attacks and ritual sword is basically just a permanent 15% damage buff when playing at level 1
Yo that's a great life advice vid, congrats!
A weapon with a good tap R2 (Zweihander is my favorite) makes the boss so much fun. The 1.14 tap R2 speed buffs actually helped this fight immensely, there are now a ton of tap R2 openings. For phase 2, you can load up a charged R2 and if she jumps in the air, you can just release the button early to whiff the attack and then dodge and queue another charged R2 after she comes back down as opposed to using an ash of war which locks you into a longer animation. Also the long range no roll waterfowl strafe is super satisfying while also being pretty easy to pull off. The only problem is how passive she is in phase 1, I use fan daggers cause I'm impatient. I still haven't done Malenia RL1 and I want to try but I think I already locked myself out of ritual shield talisman in my RL1 save file and I really don't want to do Niall without it. I still think Consort is harder even after the nerfs but then again I haven't fought consort a lot, while I have fought Malenia a lot because of the interactivity in figuring out which moves are the most optimal and how her hyperarmor works is a lot of fun for me. Still haven't learned the circle dodge though lol
When i did my second RL1, i used the Milady from the DLC since i beat Mogh much earlier, this sword completely shreds her and catches her out very often.
Wing Stance was great against her as it closes distance and the fluid movement matching hers was exhilarating.
Now Pre Change Consort? Hahah…
600+ attempts and pure frustration using the same weapon, milady helped make things bearable in trying times
Love this channel
My strategy for Malenia at RL1 was basically to stay at middle range and hit her with the R2 attack from Wing Stance every time she completed a combo. Not the most elegant strategy, perhaps, but hey, if the devs wanted to discourage it, they should have given her projectile attacks.
But that also gets me to the biggest issue IMO with her design, which is that she's a very easy boss with one "fuck you, I win" move. Everything else she does can very easily be outspaced. Her kick doesn't even have to be dodged, and she's prone to spamming it as a combo starter whenever it misses (which is 100% of the time if you play it right). I'm pretty sure she's the only major boss in the entire game that doesn't have either an instant closer move or a projectile attack with which to force you into melee range and/or heal punish. And if you're a caster build, you can basically spam either Night Comet or another spell that breaks her dodge AI for easy wins.
I always got the feeling and have seen others mention that Malenia was more a Sekiro tier boss in a more Souls style game and it showed. Her move set would have been glorious to learn and parry with Wolf
To me she and Maliketh feel more like Wo Long Bosses but that's because I've never played Sekiro and probably never will....
@ I can see that too, Wo Long has a similar vibe to Sekiro with the parrying and swordplay. Loved Wo Long, but Sekiro was the first game I ever platinumed so its always gonna be a big point of reference for me
@@CassHadleyMusik Yeah fair enough but me and a friend played basically all of Wo Long so other than Nioh 2 it's a big point of reference for us for this game...
we love learning ❤
Waterfowl is her only problem. In my first play through, I just looked up on how ONGBAL dodges it. But seeing doesn't mean I can execute it. I still have to struggle before I learn it. After beating her and then again in RL1, I have since done many kills with different weapons. I do like her, and I only dislike Waterfowl. To enjoy her fight, I just forget about Waterfowl. If she uses it, I just try my best to dodge it based on my current distance. I already know the tricks but I can't dodge it 100% of the times. If I fail, I just accept death and no longer be bothered by it nowadays. Just think of it as I can ride Torrent with no problem most of the times but death by gravity will still happen sometimes and I won't be bothered by it. The biggest game changer is Deflecting Hardtear from the DLC. It works so well against her normally as well as pretty much solve the Waterfowl issue too.
Giant Hunt on any weapon with Deflecting Hardtear are my favorite build against her nowadays. Give it a try when you can and maybe you will like her then.
I have a little giants hunt action in the upcoming RL1 guide. I make mincemeat outta her, hehe.
I use double nagakiba with hoarfrost stomp, when she isn’t doing anything you can do the stomp while she’s outside of its range. This will prevent her from standing around and almost always get her to run into the ice, I think after 3 of these she’s takes bleed like frost damage. Couple this with frost on the nagakibas and do a 2 hand double slash after you dodge attacks
I see a lot of other people sharing their Malenia experiences in the comments, so I guess I’ll do the same.
I love this boss. She’s up there with Ludwig and Orphan as one of my favorite Fromsoft bosses of all time, and coming from the woman with a Bloodborne tattoo, that’s a pretty big compliment.
I 90% agree with your assessment of her moveset, but while you dislike it, that’s what makes me enjoy it. This is obviously to share my own personal experience, not demean yours, but the fact that Waterfowl exists makes her a better boss to me. All of her other attacks are “easy” to dodge. Simple 3 hit combos you can roll out of, linear slashes and stabs you can see coming and punish effectively.
And then, she pulls out the hammer and takes your head off in a single swing. Waterfowl is what defines Malenia, because it takes her from a good boss with an effective, readable moveset, to an amazing boss with that one move that flips how you think about her fight on its head. I like that there are ways to cheese it (frost pots), because it doesn’t necessitate that you learn the attack. But for me, Malenia was always my Elden Ring “goal.” She is the first Elden Ring boss that I didn’t just want to beat, but master. And after seeing legends like LMSH in action, I thought “okay, I’m going to do that.”
So, that’s what I’ve been doing. I took off my clothes, put a pot on my head, and picked up a pair of katanas. My primary punish for a lot of her moves has been unsheathe, but I’m also using the rolling or jumping L1 for certain moves. I am not doing an RL1 run right now, but seeing you learn how to deal with Waterfowl shed some insight on how I’ve been struggling with it.
Additionally, I think what makes Malenia work is that she’s optional. She’s not a main story boss, or even an easily accessible one. In order to get her, you have to get a secret medallion, light all the lamps in that one evergaol, and go through an entire separate area just to reach her. And then, once you get to her, they put a grace right outside her fog wall. To me, this is Miyazaki saying “you made it. Here she is. Now win.” Whenever I die to Malenia, I never feel like it was outside of my control. I almost never have camera issues in her arena due to it being a wide open circle, there’s nothing that really visually clogs the fight, it’s just you and her in a puddle of water. To me, Malenia is a duel, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. Anyways, enough of me yapping. Thank you to whoever took the time to read this.
…She’s also really hot-
Im a malenia apologist and a waterfowl glazer. Getting a feel for waterfowls cooldown gives such a unique push and pull to the fight that I cant find anywhere else. But….
You dont start fighting malenia knowing the cooldown by heart or knowing that the move even has a set cooldown. And you’re probably too caught up learning the rest of her moveset to notice it. So the only time a player knows she will use waterfowl is around 60% health. Past that the move feels entirely random. And since the first burst isn’t dodge-able in the way the second and third are, it creates a uniquely confusing learning experience.
Players will fight malenia not knowing that spacing is key to manage waterfowl, trigger her first waterfowl right next to her, try to dodge it, and get absolutely blasted. It isnt entirely unreasonable to assume that since you couldnt dodge the first burst, then you probably cant dodge the second and third bursts. So now they know to keep distance from her, but mistakenly assume they need to be far enough to space the entire move. This does “work” for countering waterfowl, but cripples the players offensive opportunities. But all that solution needs to do is “work” for players to assume thats how they are supposed to deal with it and run with that idea.
I think adding a slight glow on her sword to indicate that she can use waterfowl would drastically improve the learning experience while not compromising the threat of the move (especially since knowing the cooldown and throwing a single throwing knife already completely cripples waterfowls threat). After the final burst of waterfowl, the glow would disappear until she can use it again to signify the connection. Since the move would lose its initial random factor, players would be more confident sticking close to her until the glow. The glow would then scare the player away from her, pushing them to distance the first burst by the time she uses the move, but not give them enough time to space the rest. Players are then exactly where they need to be to figure out that they can dodge the rest of waterfowls bursts.
I fully believe that waterfowl is incredibly designed when you understand it. But when running into it for the first time, it has a knack for putting players into positions where the solution doesn’t seem possible.
I don't think waterfowl even has a cool down though.
I just learned to dodge it (run and jump) and it just stopped being a thing to worry about at all.
Waterfowl doesn’t really have a cooldown functionally. There is an internal cooldown but it’s already done by the time she finishes the move. Her AI just tries to not prioritize using the move directly after but the AI can flat out ignore this and chain waterfowls together.
Waterfowl isn’t too difficult for me to dodge these days anymore. The real problem is her clone attack. For the life of me I can’t figure out how to properly dodge it. If you’re too close to it, I feel like it’s completely undodgeable and you’re always gonna get hit by a clone, maybe two. Spamming light roll works fairly consistently, but there’s no way that’s the intended way to dodge it, is it?
@midknight8 personally I just run as far as I can then start dodging once the clones start coming out, usually works.
Video actually made me enjoy doing my French project
Well, as far as recommendations for other games you can learn, I'd highly recommend getting to the superbosses in Kingdom Hearts 2 and 3 on Critical mode. Those fights are still the best to ever do it and found in an unexpected game for many people.
Note, you have to beat 2 Kingdom Hearts games on Critical to get to them, but in reward, you get 27 of some of the best fights in video games.
You know the video's gonna be good when UA-cam put one of their anti-misinformation links underneath.
Haha that's so weird. I only mention climate change is stressful to think about and contributes to our cognitive load. Weird.
Amazing video! love the work. As to your last question, I think I'd love to see you play and talk about Armored Core 6 (thats the FromSoftware game I'm currently playing) if you havent already I think you'd personally get a kick out of playing Sekiro, and I'd LOVE to see your takes on the way that FromSoft plays with the psychology of the players of their games. there's such a combat shift between Elden Ring and Sekiro (this is true of the rest of their games as well) and I'd love to see your particular style applied to that shift in psychology. Also give me any sort of longform content dude I got shit to do and games to beat and you're ridiculously encouraging.
Definitely some content on both of those games ahead at some point for sure!
Ok i have now learned that my social life and responsibilities are a hindrens, and that i must forsake them entirely, to beat Malenia.
Babe wake up new goated souls figure just dropped.
Not now babe, a UA-camr I’ve never heard of uploaded a cool 40 minute thing about a game I’m yet to play!
It’s a good game!
@ no doubt! I’m about to finish my second playthrough of Wukong then I gotta play a couple short indies like Animal Well and I’ll be jumping into Elden Ring after that. I played it for like 15 mins at launch after spending 40 minutes creating a character only to realize this game is too big and I’m far too busy for it but now I’m ready lol
I love this guy
This video inspired me to continue my Malenia RL1 tries and I gotta say watching your video whilst playing was really calming in a weird way. Though I have to say in Phase 2 she didnt even get to do Waterfowl, Clone OR a 2nd bloom so I guess I got really lucky.
I do agree with most of your points at the end: This fight is severely flawed. Malenia as a presentation is amazing: everything around the fight is perfect, but the fight itself just isnt. I have a honest love-hate relationship with this it. Im always so excited to get to her again and yet everytime she does waterfowl im dreading the few miliseconds im there.
To specify what I mean is just the instant she goes up in the air you are expected to be sprinting backwards already, but the time it takes one to realize that you have to decide between running back or getting close to do "the funny strat" shes already started doing it and then its just over.
In dark souls 3 when there was an attack that would murder your entire hp bar when not properly dealt with it would be a well telegraphed attack : Midir Laser (both types), Nameless king 2nd (3rd) Phase slam, Demon Prince laser or Meteors, Old Demon King Meteors, etc... Even Elden ring does this: Godfrey ground explosions, Radagon triple slam, Elden Beast Triple Rings, Fortissax to some extent, etc... The thing here is: its well telegraphed and it invokes this fear of something iminent, where as Waterfowl is just a constant fear after 75% hp is gone and theres really nothing you can do except guess when she has it loaded up again.
I just dont get why Malenia doesn't necessairly obide by those same standards. Especially in phase 2 when she can do it a lot more often. Because even if you learnt how it works, youd still have trouble dealing with it after hundreds of attempts or kills. (kudos to the dlc for not making this the new standard)
Lastly I find it simply baffling that Malenia is still broken mechanically on some levels. I have multiple examples of her instantly going into the defensive stance as if i had done too much damage to her, without even having touched her, or her inconsistently doing the defensive backstep stance thing when Ive done the same exact damage rotation and sometimes she dashes back and sometimes she doesnt. Everytime I did get to finally beat her though? Pure Adrenaline and Ecstasy. Definetly the hardest boss ive beaten in RL1 so far. ONTO THE DLC!!
you only need to be one meter away to run and jump the first flurry of waterfowl, the hit and run strat isn't that difficult if you're not trying to do something stupid like dragon maw, you can also just block it with barricade shield or use miriums vanishing etc.
@@Ghorda9 considering I (AND GRED) was talking about RL1:
As Gred says in the video Malenia rewards aggressiveness. My build was Cold Starfist and quite frankly, I NEEDED to be up in her face to even get any damage; Therefore it wasn't possible to even squeeze out that 1 Meter without compromising damage without getting Waterfowled in my face (which i could dodge with the running around strat fairly consistently), but then you are missing my point: Its about the expectation of Waterfowl. Only sorta kinda being able to do damage sometimes is not a viable strategy; its not even a strategy, its just lucky.
The hit and run tactic only drags out the fight which means you spend more time each run which you don't want to do, considering concentration levels and attention span per run for an extended amount of time (Gred explains this in the video at 21:00). The longer you need to focus on something the more likely you are to make mistakes.
The other options you mention are quite literally not viable for a RL1 run.
@@yeeterdeleter8193 you can definitely squeeze out one meter, you just need to get your hit in and preemptively back out each time. It doesn't matter if you're using starfists or a great sword, this still works. Waterfowl gives you enough time if you're proactive and always assume it's her next move. She also has a ton of openings to get damage in even in phase two.
@@yeeterdeleter8193
It's not even a distance thing TBH.
Your hands still have an active hitbox while jumping because the game considers them to be above should height. Star Fists are over if the worst weapons for the run and jump method because of this paired with the fact that you need to be close to her as you mentioned.
It's good to have multiple approaches but also to play to the strength of your build. Imo, Malenia is maybe the only boss in the game that's harder with star fists.
Millicent’s prosthesis? You bastard!
sorry!
This guy beat Malenia with facts and logic
The time I learnt that if I didn't want to get frustrated and resent what I was doing I had to stop focusing on winning and just focusing on going through it and learning is really funny, because it wasn't a legendary boss like Malenia or Radahn or an older boss of note like Orphan of Kos or Sword Saint Isshin...
It was going through the snowfield to the two asshole tigers in DS2, dealing with those reindeers was threatening to make me tear out hair every run.
omg in the DLC getting to the Putrescent Knight and those dang squirmy laser wormsssssss
funny timing, I just beat Malenia my second time ever. Last time I stunlocked her to death with my mimic tear after four attempts, so I didn't learn any of her moves. This time I beat her solo, but my learning curve was split, as I fought her with deflecting hardtear and guard counters. Waterfowl was also my main concern, of course, but it turned out, you can parry it in it's entirety, if you space each flurry correctly, because otherwise she can dash behind you and negate your deflections. With the UGS and guard counter talisman it was easy to outdamage her life steal.
Not anything on the level of a RL1 win, but still felt pretty sick.
Any wins a good win, dude. Nice job.
As a certified Malenia hater yet ironically a Radahn apologist (even pre nerf all of his attacks seem a lot more intuitive to dodge than Waterfowl ever will to my brain) I gotta commend both the effort behind runs like these, and the brass balls it takes to allow yourself to say you still dislike it, I don't know how heated debates in the challenge run community get but I usually hear more Water Fowl apologists coming from there than anywhere else lol
Very lucky rng in phase 2, not a single waterfowl in sight 🙂
Got one in phase 1 but she did it really far away from me.. so... yeah :(
I really appreciate the word choice on the title. I'm sooooo over the whole clickbait practice and "THE [thing] YOU'VE NEVER [verb'ed] BEFORE” type of titles. we need more individuals, not assimilated minds.
Oh my SCIENCE!!
You ask for recommendations for more content like this, and this might be out of left field, but I think that your approach to games, mentality, and the learning process would go wild in Spelunky 2. The journey seems up your alley, you'll find it interesting at the very least.
Spelunky 2 is a brutal and wacky game that completely forbids any progress, until you meet the game on its terms, learn its tricks, learn how to execute, and be clever/resourceful enough that you can perform under pressure even when conditions aren't always exactly the same. Spelunky is the game that helped me internalize the goal-oriented improvement mentality that you MUST have for any difficult skill (fighting games, in my case), because it only ever rewards you with progress once you can overcome your frustration, and demonstrate that you've learned something. It can actually teach a stubborn player how to expect failure and see it as a learning opportunity, in a way that I don't see many games pull off successfully. It helps that you don't really "beat" Spelunky, either, much like you don't "beat" any other skill. All of your suffering is intrinsic, as it should be 🙏
In any case, absolute banger content, despite the neuroscience illiteracy. Your video game critique video completely turned my opinion on Elden Ring around overnight. I had a really bad time with DS3, and probably still would bc I'm just not a fan of the boss design, but that gave me a poor perception of Elden Ring as soon as it came out, and I ate up everything that Joseph Anderson and Feeble King were saying about it. I've been watching yours and Loopine's videos, though, and I feel like I get it now. I'm gonna give the game a proper shake one day
I've actually got a list of games I'd like to play for the channel and Spelunky 2 is on it! I've never played Spelunky 1 or 2 so would be keen to check it out.
Glad you're interested in checking out the game! It's pretty darn good.
@@GredGlintstone That's awesome, spelunky is super fun and technical, you'll like it. Either way, I'm looking forward to whatever you're cooking 👍
Since you put all this effort into making this video, I can just not put any in this comment: I like Messmer more.
wow that name, very niche but i like it
Splendid video! Many new learnings.
But I think there is one question to pull one last curtain away to reveal what‘s behind.
Would you have started or kept trying the close combat spin movent to counter her waterfowl dance if you had not known about it from an external source?
Probably not. Not sure I would have thought to try it but who knows. I think with enough attempts I might have figured it out like an infinite number of monkeys with typewriters doing Shakespeare but it would take a long while I'd think. I would have most likely just tried to force it at range or thrown frost pots again.
But I do think learning from the community is a big part of the game so the obscurity of how to dodge it isn't such as much a concern for me as it is for many.
Lies of P EL10 no p organ time.....
I might be the only person on the planet that liked waterfowl from the start. I just really wanted to learn how to dodge it and when I learned, I helped so many people.... although it didnt help the hosts dodge it
I deeply hate dodging it close range with all my heart
@@A-Rune-bear I still cant. my strategy has always been run away for the first bit (requires a bit of distance at first) then 2 dodges directly through it. idk about the other methods but that is what worked for me and I stuck to it this whole time. I just make sure to always give her a bit of space between attacks and never let my stamina deplete entirely
For me, I like to move my head to match the boss's movements in order to remember what they're doing and how I need to dodge. It works great for delayed combos like Gaius's 9-hitter.
That’s a good one too! Tapping your foot for rhythm as well.
Im 15 and this is deep
Gred Goatstone
Glad that waterfowl and other difficult moves in Elden Ring exists to introduce some problem solving into a combat encounter. DS3 movesets were too simple for an already simple combat system.
Gael's lightning/distructo discs and Midirs lasers did a good job fixing this how ever
I think Ds3 did really interesting gimmics, I remember struggling with pontiffs twin and soul of cinder transition’s. But i agree that the combat is simple when compared to bloodborne that came before it.
I'd agree if they had a reasonable counter, but waterfowl is just unintuitive BS. There's no way to figure out the dodging without outside help.
@matman000000 I figured out a solution on my own that avoided enough damage to survive, that was satisfying enough for me. Definitely an understandable opinion though.
@@matman000000 you don't need outside help, there are lots of different methods and most of them are far more intuitive than the spin strat. The average person would even incorporate an ash of war or blocking if it really troubled them, there are a dozen different ashes of war that can do this in addition to spells, incants, shields and even strength weapons with decent guard boost.
Huh, that’s interesting…
Gred doesn’t like fighting her because he finds her moves unfun to dodge, which is the exact opposite of my feelings lol
Waterfowl is the worst for sure, and her second phase is DEFINITELY not super enjoyable, but her first phase? With no waterfowl?
😩 it’s the most fun I’ve had fighting almost any boss in game. I think it’s probably because I had to really learn her moves well to live, unlike a lot of bosses before her where getting hit a few times wasn’t as big a deal. Idk her move set just flowed for me, I found being able to dodge and weave through her attacks really satisfying. I was using zwei but I almost never got a poise break lol, played pretty safe
It’s times like this I wish there was a way to replay bosses after you beat them once (notgodefroynotgodefroynotgode-), like a menu or arena type area where you can fight certain bosses again. Could be a cool use for the great runes. Obviously this is just my personal desire as I’m too lazy to have to replay all the way to Haligtree just to fight her again, a second play through or NG+ are options sure but sometimes you just get that fever for one boss lol.
Great vid!
If you enjoy the psychological element of action games this much I highly recommend playing fighting games, I reckon you'd be very good at them
I actually suck, haha. Smash bros is what I play the most and I'd say I'm a little better than average but not by much. I've tried to learn Street Fighter but my brain hurts from all the moves. Maybe one day I'll give it more of a shot but I'm really not good.
Good video, but the bit about her fight being all about backing off is just not true. During your winning try you constantly miss out on openings when she doesn't have hyper armor and is staggarable out of her attack, you also don't punish her hyper armor, anti-stun lock kick in the second phase, which is the attack that keeps the fight flowing.
Still, overall great video, looking forward to more content from you.
Yeah I noticed a lot just from watching it. Honestly I wasn’t expecting to get her when I did. I still had a lot to learn.
Again I honestly felt like reloading the save but… yeah. Weird ending I know but.. sometimes that’s the video game!
i havent finished but i fucking love what your saying about remembering which ability to dodge in the moment
i am a bit confused about how you said you spent 100 hours on her before but it sounds like you still havent figured out wfd here
Thanks! Yeah, I used frost pots and never bothered to learn.
@@GredGlintstone ow yeh, sorry i remember u mentioned that early on
He likes dark souls and has adhd. He's just like me
I love you bro. Smart gamers unite 🤓
I watched LMSH so many times to understand how to dodge. Still can't consistently dodge WFD and that damn forward step slicey move gets me everytime!😤 I also still don't understand the whole move around her to confuse the targeting
The dodge that LMSH does only works as a phantom in co-op because her tracking lags behind.
The circle method isn't really confusing her targeting. Bosses often will track you to a certain point then stop. This happens with WFD when you circle around her far enough she will basically stop tracking you momentarily and fly off in the other direction. It is quite difficult to do though and takes some practice.
The easiest way to constantly dodge it is to run away and jump the moment she touches the ground.
Hope that helps.
Yeah Malenia is definitely harder than Radahn, even prenerf Radahn and it's really because of waterfowl, I'm not yet confident enough for a RL1 playthrough, that tiny health bar is a big concern lol but working my way there, maybe I'll do it but I'm probably not gonna beat Malenia at RL1
2:52 Y-you. Traitor! How could you betray Millicent
Sorry! Gotta get that hand.
@@GredGlintstone 💔
I’d go as far as saying that MOST people that beat Malenia are only doing so because her AI just so happens to not queue up Waterfowl.
I agree with you so much. I want to like malenia but her waterfowl makes the fight reliant on rng. Btw what other fromsoftware games have you played? They are all incredible
Most of them! Still have a couple that I need to catch up on but I'm a big fan.
@ that’s cool. Fromsoftware never misses when making games
How to beat Malenia: solve global warming, bring peace to the middle east and don't die alone.
Why is there a note on this video about climate change? UA-cam needs to knock it off with that.
I’ve been emailing them and apparently there’s literally nothing they can do about it lol
@GredGlintstone It's so dystopian how they add those onto everything. This video is clearly not even about climate change, but you mention it once and they have to make sure everyone knows the "correct" view on it.
THERE'S A FOLLOW-UP TO SWORD DANCE???????
I knoooooooooooooow. fml