Circuit trouble - joining a circuit at a UK uncontrolled airfield
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- Опубліковано 25 чер 2016
- The Flying Reporter shows how he joins a busy circuit at an uncontrolled airfield in the UK.
Peterborough Connington is a busy airfield with an air-ground radio operator. In the UK, this class of aerodrome means pilots make all the decisions, after receiving aerodrome information from the radio operator. The operator, is not a 'controller'.
Having followed the published procedure, and faced with a busy circuit with aircraft arriving directly onto downwind, I found it difficult to integrate. My eyes were also letting me down, because I couldn't see most of the joining traffic. At one point I thought I must have navigated to the wrong airport!
On arrival, the staff were extremely helpful. The food was freshly prepared with a smile.
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That was so frustrating! I’m sure VERY few GA pilots would have gone around to the overhead twice, that was some superior airmanship. Thanks for those videos, I am on a CPL IR course in the UK and I am finding your videos very helpful in comprehending GA procedures in the UK. Will stay tuned!
Instablaster...
There really (REALLY) needs to be more videos like this. Especially for new or training pilots, it is really important to see that things like this are not only acceptable, but preferred. You are so right that the PPL training misses out of lots of real world situations with circuit joining, especially if you training out of an airport which is primarily a flight school.
The recent Watsonville midair collision reminded me of this video as a counterexample of excellent decision making.
In my opinion if fixed wing light aircraft pilots didn't fly such bloody massive circuits it would be a damn sight easier, you're not in an airbus and should be able to land in the event of an ending stopping in the circuit. Too many drag the plane in with power when you should be able to just glide in controlled. I have nearly 30 years of fix wing aircraft hours and now fly gyrocopters... now thats a tight circuit !! Sadly circuits getting wider means having to scan further than an aircraft is visible to the naked eye so tighten em up !!
True, if the wind is light and favourable gliding from base shouldn't be a problem
Really enjoyed this, I think you made the right choice climbing back into the overhead if you weren't visual!
Thanks Ben.
Very good video. It highlights how difficult it is to see other aircraft even if they are supposed to be in the vicinity. I am new to this channel but enjoy the honest portrayal of how fraught flying can become especially when you are on your own. I haven't got there yet having only had a couple of lessons. Keep the videos coming they are gold dust to us learners.
Thanks Michael. Keep up the training.
Thankyou for that video,as a new pilot I enjoyed how you showed not to panic and be patient and also if necessary ask! You are a very honest and experienced pilot who is a pleasure to watch, and as one person quoted "gold dust" for new and old aviation enthusiasts.Thankyou.
Thanks Graeme.
Connington was my first ever x country land away during training. Had never been there before and vividly remember joining the OH and then somebody on the RW to take off jammed their radio on and it wouldn't go off for ages. The radio operator certainly gave them a roasting 🤣
I learned at a flying school based in Bournemouth’s controlled airspace but working every weekend at their base at Sandown IOW. Terrific training getting used to controlled and uncontrolled airspace every weekend. A summer Saturday at Sandown really tested your airmanship - not unusual to be sharing the circuit with 3 or 4 other aircraft.........
Just starting out in my PPL journey. Your videos are a great tool and its great to see such an honest appraisal of events. Keep the content coming.
Thanks for watching.
Excellent video! Really shows the importance of accurate position reports and great airmanship in an uncontrolled airport. I think this also showed how stressful things can get but you showed how to say calm and safe! Thanks for the method around calculating decent. I’m just about to complete my final X solo in New Zealand. Have a look at NZPP- NZNS- NZLE-NZOM - NZPP.
Another outstanding video - totally feel your pain, and your decision not to descend dead side until visual was a great example of Airmanship. Nothing has freaked me out more than being at an uncontrolled field, hearing other traffic calls but not being able to get visual with them, especially when downwind. Great stuff!
Thanks Julian.
Yup, if you're going to err, do it on the side of caution. "If in doubt, chuck it out".
Just found this video. Thanks so much for sharing, I felt your frustration in the cockpit as I well remember as a student pilot trying to join at an unfamiliar airfield (air ground radio) with 5 + aircraft all joining or in the circuit. I nearly turned around and flew for home airfield. In the end stuck it out and eventually got into the circuit but it was so nerve racking. Some fields with air ground radio are really helpful, some not so.
Consistently good airmanship and highly watchable footage. Subscribed.
Cheers John. That's a kind comment.
Awesome video in so many ways .... great advice, insightful observations, honest and humble, clear and very helpful. It must have taken you a long time to do the video editing but the result was well worth the effort. Intense. Much appreciated
Thanks Liam.
Thanks Jon this is a great example of not only a well prepared competent PIC but more importantly good sound airmanship.
Cheers wtrofoz.
Thank you for your kind comment.😊
Great candid video.
Peterborough-Conington was part of my qualifying cross country. Loved your honest video. Many happy landings :)
+sheffair1 you too. Thanks.
Another top video Jon! For calculating descent I was taught a similar rule of thumb but time based, and based on a GS of 120KTS and 500fpm. I do number of thousand feet x 2 = mins required to descend. So if I need to lose 4000 feet, I'd descend (4 x 2) = 8 mins prior, so I take my ETA and minus the descent duration and go off my watch. If I'm descending into an airfield I'll add 2 mins to that so I'm at height at the 3nm boundary and not on top of the runway. Oh and I loved the "swapping wheels for wings" bit, funny!
Thanks my friend. Good tip...there are loads of these nuggets of info out there.
Busy circuit! Good video as usual, well edited and informative. Well done Jon.
Thank you my friend.
Another great video, clearly demonstrates the importance of good decision making. If something doesn't feel right..it probably isn't. You could also say that the one joining downwind should have been a little aware of your position.
Thanks Colin. Bear in mind that the other joiner may have been able to see me, and have decided that there was enough space to slot in ahead of me. Because I couldn't see them, I wasn't taking the risk.
A master class in airmanship at a busy airfield I would say. Really good videos.
+354dw thank you.
Excellent video on why I take an extra pair of eyes along for the flight ! Keep up the reporting,thanks,Al.
Sadly, only had one pair that day - hence, didn't see very much of use :(
Your advice on when to start the decend is a fair comment,Like you said I can't recall that exercise during my training either,cheers
Great video I felt every moment of your concern on the position of other aircraft you can get drawn in to the pressure of this and end up in trouble, you stayed out and went in when you felt it was safe.
In my opinion its so important for pilots to give others a good picture of where they are at all times especially if its busy, local pilots should call visual reference points so that visitors can easily identify where the traffic is. thanks for sharing this video it was great to watch.
Thanks for the comment Lars.
Very well done indeed and don’t blame your eyes ! That pilot joining downwind needs a shake. You were already in the overhead and had priority. That’s the whole point of an overhead join, it keeps things as safe and orderly as possible.
It’s compounded when pilots extend various legs of the circuit and that messes the whole thing up.
all about that transition from car to aircraft - love it!
+The Virtual Airline Pilot boom.. good for a giggle.
Excellent - just like the real,thing! Love your channel 10/10.
Really appreciate the honesty of your vids - you could've easily edited out all the messy stuff to serve a spitshined video and present yourself like the Uberpilot (like so many others do) but instead you really show what an average pilot experiences. And by the way IMHO it sometimes takes bigger balls to choose the safer option and expose yourself to potential comments from other flyers than to just plow through and hope for the best. I totally agree with your handling of the situation. Thanks for the videos.
+mauersegler79 that's kind of you, thank you.
Great informative video mate. I've just started training at Denham and am 5 hours in. I find that other aircrafts paint schemes can play a huge part in not seeing traffic in the circuit. At Denham we have the M25 lakes and trees, some types really blend in.
Good lesson; better to be safe than sorry. I recently landed at Conington on my QXC - except with lowering cloud base at 1800 feet, joining from south on 28 LHC at a busy time, and not having kept east of the A1(M) - was very tricky doing the standard overhead join! I ended up doing 1 orbit outside the circuit and a go-around on my first landing attempt (I use the word "landing" in its broadest possible meaning as 300 ft over the threshold isn't really an attempt!). Conington is a great place to land though, everyone there is friendly and helpful. Keep the videos coming, really enjoy them all.
They were certainly very friendly and helpful there. Never wrong to go around! Fly safe.
Very good airmanship there Jon. Sherburn is also A/G and really keeps me on my toes, well done 👍🏼
Thank you Daniel.
Great landing considering your stress levels. You didn't look a happy bunny on the ground. Personally, I'd have flown off somewhere about five miles out of downwind, orbited and waited for it to all calm down. I was late downwind a fortnight ago when someone else called "late downwind". I was looking, looking, looking, bum getting squeaky before I saw him way over on a final. Some pilots just do not know where they are
Great job!! Ace landing too. Flying vfr is very challenging especially at uncontrolled aerodrome. My personal preference is to fly IFR from and to controlled airports. Waaay less stressful.
I'm a student pilot about to go solo. Thanks for the vids, they are so helpful, this one especially. Thanks!
Red Heavy thanks for watching.
Gosh! Have to echo other comments about delaying descent due to lack of visuals. I was getting really stressed just watching this (Fitbit showing 85bpm) and am impressed on how you managed to keep your cool in this situation.
Well done.
Thank you.
I also use the calculation mentioned in your video to calculate the top of descent. To calculate the rate of descent you do ground speed / 2 and multiply the answer by 10. It works for Concorde or a PA28. Great channel!
Thanks Jack. They both work well.
EGSF was where i learned to fly, so when i moved to Cambridge i found it quite daunting having the fomalities of a controlled environment. Your experience sort of reminded me of my solo X country landing at Gamston, got disoriented as to which end of the runway to cross from dead side, so i stayed there until my head was sorted. it can happen to the best on occasion. I still find RT a little intimidating on times, however, your videos are a great help when it comes to the out of the ordinary procedural work. Thinking ahead is the greatest tool you can have in your flying armoury.
I remember my QXC, I made sure that I had a pretty good idea of the wind at the landing site before I left home (I asked when I PPR'd) , and I briefed the overhead join using the Pooley plates to ensure that I had been through the deadside descend in my head before taking off. I also had a good think about how that would look if the wind and runway changed by the time I got there. After landing, had a cuppa whilst I did the same for my next destination. I'd prefer not to add to the workload by working it out on arrival.
Awesome. First of your videos I've watched. Looking forward to watching more. Great information - especially for a student pilot.
+Dave Colgate thanks Dave. Remember though, to check anything you want to apply, with your instructor first, as I may be not necessarily always right!
Nice to see - flying in tomorrow. Thanks for wearing a weatherspoons plate too ;)
Thank you so much for sharing your videos, I am going through same struggles !!! L great demos of human factor in aviation . For the distance I run the math estimates and here’ what is gave me : 2times Altitude loss with tail wind, 3 times in xwind and 4times in full headwind
Hi John - great video and you always impress me with your 'safety first' attitude to flying. One question - why do you put the Carb heat to 'cold' at 500'? I was never taught to do this in a PA28 as there have been incidents of engine icing developed within those final few hundred feet and if you need to Go Around - it takes a split second to put the Carb heat from 'Hot' to 'Cold'.
Great Video. I did all my NPPL training at EGSF in the early noughties and qualified in June 2004. I’m an avid follower now and enjoy your excellent presentations.
Really enjoyed watching this video! I like the flying tips!
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching.
Great video! Conington certainly has an intersting circuit pattern! I havent been there since my QXC
Thanks. it's different, but not difficult. it's just dealing with other joiners, who want to come in directly, rather than overhead.
Well done Jon, got there in the end. Conversely, I used to be more intimidated by full ATC airfields because I learned from uncontrolled strips. As others have said, Sherburn in Elmet is a good AD to practice this kind of flying at. If you want to improve your aircraft spotting skills, try gliding. It's also great fun and will improve your confidence within the circuit. Looking forward to next vid!
Thanks Tom. I'm not sure what was up with my eyes that day!
Really good decision to stay away from the traffic in the pattern... Well done!
Enjoyed the video. I thought you was going to succumb to the advice of the A/G controller, you didn't, safety first, loved it!
Thank you Matthew.
Excellent. Well done.
Hi Jon - really enjoying the videos and comments from fellow flyers - great way of sharing experience and learning. I flew into EGSF a while back and would suggest that there is nothing wrong with your eyes - spotting multiple light aircraft from the overhead that have joined downwind, on base or final 1000' below, against a patchwork of fields is no easy task. In my humble opinion you are not visual at a busy time, you did absolutely the right thing in holding overhead. I also recall (and it was a while back), that in published info and in PPR call, overhead join was preferred and requested. As this is an airfield without full ATC, it does make life tricky if one follows that join process along with other arrivals joining at various points downwind. Having all traffic arrive overhead must make management safer at busy times perhaps. All the best.
Thanks Seamus. It is hard isn't it. I'm going to the opticians next week!!!!
Thanks Seamus. It is hard isn't it. I'm going to the opticians next week!!!!
Really enjoyed this many thanks
Fenland is a great airfield to visit for some huge skies. BTW, did you borrow James May shirt? ;) Always love your video because I'm going to start my PPL soon at EGLD
+peanuts2105 good luck with your training. Thanks for watching.
Great video really professionally made, I can tell you put a lot of time an effort in to them. How do you record the narrating part of the video? Really liked your tip no one taught me that during the PPL either. I felt your pain during the circuit but always best to be safe rather than sorry. I remember the 1st time I flew in to Elstree as a new PPL, I was in the circuit on base leg but the aircraft turning final was too close to me so I told them I would do one orbit for spacing. It felt like the aircraft on downwind and the controller were making a mockery of my decision, I did feel a bit embarrassed, stressed at the time but as soon as I landed I knew it was the correct decision.
Thanks Rasa. To record the commentary, I have a mic and a usb adapter for it. When you qualify as a PPL, some expect you to know everything, when in reality, you know next to nothing! People can be quick to judge.
Very informative video. I sometimes operate the A/G radio at my home field and we always advise (not instruct) Join Overhead. It can be very difficult to see other aircraft in the circuit, especially as some pilots fly a much larger pattern than you would expect...Almost a cross country sometimes! As the A/G operator it is very hard to resist the temptation to give traffic information but you absolutely must not as you haven't the skills or the equipment to enable you to keep track of all the aircraft. But there are times when I have done it in the interests of safety as did the Conington radio man in your video.To calculate an approximate rate of descent to maintain a 3 degree glide path, multiply your groundspeed by 5. E.G. 3 deg = app 300ft/mile and 60 knots (1 NM/ min) x 5 = 300
Thanks. It was an interesting flight, and I need to fly more to A/G fields to become more accustomed.
Love this channel and this video in particular for several reasons:
- Difficulty of flying intro uncontrolled airfields: I had the opposite experience - flying almost exclusively into and out of uncontrolled airfields, I was quite nervous flying into a controlled airport the first time precisely because I was not in control but knew I had to follow the controller’s instructions, not knowing what those would be. Very interesting to see the other perspective and thank you for the honest views.
- Brexit: Great to see a a flying vid actually shot on Brexit day. I bought my G-registered Cessna 172 on Brexit day. Having purchased the necessary pounds the day before, I learned the hard way how *not* to do foreign currency trading in that 24 hour window. Still can’t believe the timing of my purchase although I don’t regret making the purchase for a second. Apart from that, Brexit is extremely sad for continental Europeans such as myself!
Your videos are very professionally done, fun to watch and very educational for fellow aviators - so many thanks for sharing them.
Thanks for the comment. A controversial video this one. Some like it, some hate it. I'm getting more and more at ease with the uncontrolled environment now. But you're right...it all comes down to where you trained I think.
Have my first lesson at comptan abbas soon cant wait.
Brilliant video, absolutely brilliant :)
Thank you so much.
Great video Jon but can you tell me, did you draw those circuit diagrams on the sheet of paper that is attached to the control colum or are they from poolies or some other such publication?
I think they're from pooleys.
Only going on what we heard but the radio calls from the other aircraft didn't seem to help matters. You stayed calm and didn't let yourself make any mistakes. Great video and I think this should be made a training video of how a uncontrolled circuit can be very demanding. Keep the great videos up 😊
+Kevin Hill Thanks Kevin.
well done ,learning a lot from you. :)
Thanks. Glad to be of help. Thanks for watching.
Remember when my classmates and I had to fly to Connington for our QXC. 6 of our aircraft plus the Connington traffic lead to a lot of confusion. I decided to go up to 2000feet overhead to figure out what was going on and then join the circuit pattern. This was all after struggling to find the airport cause it can be a bit tricky with just charts. You can bet we gave our self lots of departure separation for the next leg 😂 Good ole PPL days
Lovely video!!
Thank you Tom!
4000’ divided by 500fpm is 6,,,and I fly at 120kts in the decent which is 2 miles per min, so that’s 12...same result as you but I’ve always used this method. Or is it the same method? Great film. Good airmanship.
Great video... I'm a new PPL and cant remember covering decent distances fully. I am sure i covered it in ground school, but realistically would have been good to do some decent practice from higher than 2-3,000...
Thanks. I like you, did all of my training at about 2000ft.
Yes I really wish u could make another video explaining this .... When getting to the uncontrolled airfield . How do I get the sense of where all the traffic is. And also wheb joining the traffic or when I have to look out when someone is practicing their maneuverer or when I have to get out there to practice
You basically rely on other pilot reports in the aerodrome circuit. There are the standard reporting places, and as long as pilots report at those places, everyone knows where they are. In addition, when flying anywhere near an aerodrome, you have to keep a very good lookout, and expect aircraft to pop up where you least expect them.
Hey. Very good series. The soundtrack is so good! (1:32) I was wondering how many flight hours have you logged on? Cheers
+Geonordis thank you. I have 250 hours total.
You're a natural ;)
Conington was on my QXC literally the day after this was filmed haha. Also, I know the pilot of G-WACU because he was doing his Dual QXC that day and I instantly recognised his voice!
nice work. i faced something similar except a plane was taking off whilst i was turning onto join crosswind, so i orbited to the right and back onto crosswind, avoided the aircraft and then followed circuit to land.
Thanks. Normally, if joining crosswind, any aircraft taking off usually climb to 500ft and stop climb until passing the upwind end of the runway, thus avoiding any crosswind traffic. At least, that would be good practice. Obviously, they have right of way, so if they were going to climb into the circuit, and you don't think you could space ahead of them, then the delaying action you describe would work.
I am based in Conington and I agree, a bit cowboy land ! used to fly in controlled ATZs...
I think one of the variations amongst both GA pilots and GA airfields is the length of their crosswind and base legs as well as the point at which GA pilots declare that they are downwind. Looking at this month's Pilot magazine Quiz, the point at which a pilot should inform that he is downwind is when abeam the upwind end of the runway. That should tell anyone joining or in the circuit, where they should look to find that traffic but that will be dependent on how wide the downwind pilot has made their circuit.
I used to fly at Old Sarum many years ago and circuits were quite tight. Other airfields I visited used much wider circuits perhaps because locally based pilots were using landscape features as turning points rather than turning downwind when they had reached circuit height on the crosswind leg. Just a thought but I agree completely that when in doubt, go around.
Appreciate you sharing this video. So the wind was 180 at 12 and you landed on runway 28? So you had a slight tailwind?
A tail wind of 0.24 of a knot, yes.
At 12:22 another aircraft is requesting to enter downwind. Either this is a slip of the tongue or he has no idea that he is not in controlled airspace. Perhaps the guy on the ground should have been more explicit about his inability to respond to requests for the sake of everybody in the pattern?
14:12 "Make your standard descent please I will keep you advised"? "Continue your normal approach" Surely he can't do that???
I find the A/G stations vary on the info, some are quite helpful by giving you details of circuit traffic information, others give you very little. '...two in the circuit, one currently overhead....' as opposed to simply'...circuit is active...' It doesn't really bother me but sometimes when you've only just tuned into the frequency the communication made by the pilots on the same frequency is missed, a bit of current traffic in circuit status by the A/G can be very helpful both for situational awareness and planning overhead times. Enjoyed watching your videos.
+Sam Tyrrell I try to listen in to an a/g fairly early to build up a picture of what's going on. I'm not sure it's the a/g operator's responsibility, but I agree, some do provide good info on first call. Thanks for watching Sam.
Love the tip of the week.
Cheers.
The only time I was scared was when the one ahead downwind flew straight into the lowering cloud base and I lost sight. They didn't report Base nor Final and I found them 200ft below me own my own final. I wish people were clear about their circuit position.
Great landing, 54kts?
hey from 2019, hawarden in cheshire is pronounced har-den, doing my ppl and just subbed for more flying vids
TomHolmez12 - Beat me to it.
I'm still a student out of a controlled airport and never been to uncontrolled/radio airport. It seems like the air to ground operator just causes more hassle than it's worth! Do you find it easier at uncontrolled airports where pilots talk to one another, rather than a radio operator that can't really do anything? Or is it useful to have the radio?
It all comes down to what you're used to. I trained at an aerodrome with very good ATC. I'm less confident at AFIS and A/G aerodromes where the pilot is in charge in the air. Flying at both requires different skills...and I need more experience at the non-controlled aerodromes.
A good eye opener to people who never get to do this, flying into a A/G airfield can be overwhelming sometimes.... I very rarely join overhead for that exact reason. Flying out of Headcorn I have no choice but to join downwind but in a low wing aircraft I believe thats easier than joining overhead.
phil0510 I agree. I think you get used to the types of joins you do at your training base....in my case full ATC. I find a/g daunting. Others will have the opposite problem I suspect.
If that "rotary-wing" traffic you could not see was a gyro, I'm not surprised. They're tiny little insects and bloody difficult to spot from as little as 1000ft away.
I fly a gyro and the most comforting thing I hear on the radio is, "visual with the gyro".
Good video, keep to the centre line when on the runway, easy to go off the runway otherwise.
Supporter here - What do you do if there’s more than 1 aircraft in the overhead at the same time?
You slot into position, giving spacing, judging when best to begin your descent deadside. Courtesy would suggest, the earlier arrival goes first, however if you are nearer the descent position and there was enough space behind, there’s no rule saying you can’t descend first.
My first flight was from Conington some 10 years ago. I didn't know anything back then but I find it surprising that Conington is uncontrolled despite the local road signs calling it "Peterborough Airport".
I've watched a fair few GA videos of late and this has got to be the most bonkers uncontrolled airfield video I've seen to date. It's mad O_O
+ryan2390 'Uncontrolled' is a term I use. Technically, it's an Aerodrome with an Air -Ground radio station. There are three types of civil Aerodrome in the U.K. Even pilots struggle, sometimes, to understand how they differ. It will be licensed etc, but the pilots make all the decisions on the ground and in the air at Connington.
It's probably quite obvious I don't hold a pilots license (as much as I'd like one) but I have picked a few things up here and there. I suppose to a degree I'm used to listening to Redhill tower keep the pattern there running smoothly and safely so to see this sort of thing is a surprise. Is there a limit on how much traffic an aerodrome can handle before needing a full ATC service?
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Most appreciated =)
I'm not sure. A/G aerodromes are common, and generally work very well. I was very cautious that day, and lack experience at this type of strip.
It's funny, but when I was learning to fly at Dunkeswell in the westcountry I had no problems joining at an uncontrolled airfield but,I would have been bricking it dealing with all that controlled airspace around London.
I know Tim. It all depends what you are used to/trained with.
wow after watching a few of your videos it seams to me it is easier to join with full atc
All been there Jon..... I flew past Springfield, illinois airport on my first solo after a being distracted for a second.....to which the approach controller asked " November 44960...... Are you looking for your own runway or planning to use the one everyone else is using?"......
I would say ( i am a brit expat with 309 hours who ,earned to fly over here) that the uncontrolled radio calls are pretty inconsistent in the UK vs the US......this felt very chaotic to me! Great video though.
FYI, I fly an archer....... I. Use descent needed ( thousands feet) x 2 ( 500 ft per minute = minutes required)... Then x 2 again => distance at 120 knots ( i.e 2 per minute)...... So x 3 would be a bit tight for me!
Thanks for the comment Andy. We're always learning!
I think you backed yourself into a psychological corner well before you arrived in that circuit. It’s difficult not be disoriented by the radio, but I always trust my eyes. If the area I want to fly into can be seen to be clear, it is. Tighter circuits help too. As for the traffic behind you... you just have to rely on them not fly into you. It’s disconcerting, but that’s how it is.
It's important for everyone to give accurate position reports, especially on the initial call, when overhead and descending deadside, and situational awareness is ruined by idiots joining downwind or final without accurate range information. Circuits are usually far too large making lookout more challenging. It's always nice when pilots report who they can see in the circuit. It's a failure in instruction standards, not the fault of the airfields as a general rule. People expect to be operate like a car driver, not to show courtesy to fellow pilots. It's all about forming a mental picture of where everyone is. The chap on the ground should not be issuing instructions at all if A/G and is merely confused the responsibility chain.
I truly hate hearing downwind report out of the blue. My reaction is always to climb back overhead. At my home aerodrome we have different circuit heights for microlights and for cat A, I have to look everywhere to track who’s where. Add to that student pilots sometimes making their calls late. Climbed back overhead twice today.
John, I enjoy all your vids and especially this. Why? Because I trained - indeed am still training - at aerodromes with only air to ground radio, and was nervous before my first arrival at one with full ATC (Coventry). How would I cope with all those instructions when I am used to just being given information? Answer: fine - just read (almost) everything back and act accordingly! Your experience was the other way round; you were worried about the need to make all the decisions yourself because you trained with full ATC - although in practice it's always the pilot's call, isn't it? Anyway, hoping for my first solo landaway at Conington this weekend and have been revising the circuit and overhead join diagrams. Circuit depends on day of week and time of day as well as (obviously) runway in use; gee thanks. And don't get me started on when an OHJ isn't an OHJ, because I don't understand and I'm not sure any instructor I've ever had does either. Brilliant though they all have been/are.
+Robin Hoggard thanks Robin. It's funny how this happens. I don't know which is the best training environment. Both full atc and a/g Aerodrome have their ups and downsides. I am still very cautious approaching a non controlled circuit. When I was training, the unpredictability of variable circuits, or multiple runways would keep me awake at night. Now I fret over the multitude of noise abatement procedures, which at aerodromes with variable circuits and multiple runways can be tricky to visualise...I tend to avoid aerodromes that make it over-complicated. Good luck with your solo.
Should've gone to Sibson ;)
I always leave carb heat on while descending on final due to possible abort landing & go around----need for full power without carb ice!
Very good. www.jonhunt.net/hrf_faq/carb-heat-questions/
Victor Palamar *
I wonder if the ground operator had mentioned the type of aircraft for the other traffic would it have helped?
Maybe. Fact is, I wasn't seeing very much at all, so I don't know.
My thinking was along the lines that if you had been given some sort of clue as to the type of aircraft, your brain would be "prepped" to seeing a certain shape. I think in these types of situations every bit of information helps.
Great video! Am guessing you know that Conington has a weird-shaped overhead join pattern (for noise abatement)? Perhaps makes it tricky to know where to look if others don't quite get their positioning correct or time their radio calls properly?? ( www.aerolease.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/overheadjoin28r.jpg )
Best to be at pattern altitude about 5 miles out. Inter xwind, downwind or base. Report where and what you are doing. Much easier to see other traffic when they are on the horizon. Its two dimensional instead of three! My two cent from the west of Ireland .
I am still a student and have flown here on a lesson. An interesting point is that Connington has very specific joining procedures. It uses a "kind of sort of modified" overhead join. You can find them here: www.aerolease.co.uk/?page_id=66. It would explain why you weren't seeing aircraft where you expected them to be.
And this is what i flew. Very few others were flying the overhead join.
This was dunkeswell the other day 😂
nice vid ! how many hours have you logged?
Thank you. About 220.
I know this is almost a year old Jon, but an interesting video nonetheless. In my short experience (I am now doing my QXC) many fail to let people know in 'better' detail where they are in the joining and circuit procedure at busy times. This does involve a little more R/T but gives more precise info as to where you/they are in the circuit.
Picking up from what my instructor passed on to me: For the join, I call G-XX is overhead (2,000 feet) for runway...; G-XX descending dead-side right hand, runway..; G-XX is crosswind (1,000 feet), right hand, runway... G-XX is late downwind, right hand, runway...; And if anyone else is in the circuit I will call "turning base" to identify where I am in the procedure, then of course final.
I think many forget that not only should we be telling ground ops where we are, but more important at busy times, telling others where we are. It's at these ground radio ops locations this becomes much more of a pronounced issue as many are more use to ATC controlled ops being a two-way comms matter not as it should be an omni comms matter. The others communicating in your example gave the minimum and were fairly unhelpful - hence your apprehension.
Thanks for your videos Jon - a great help to me and others no doubt.
Thanks. To be fair to all the pilots in this video...I'm very cautious...other's might have just descended into it. They're based there, and used to joining how they do. I'm also not very practised at integrating into a non-controlled circuit.
Nice job, can't say the guy on the ground was much use!😝..
+Simon Woodward Thanks. i wouldn't go that far. It's a/g there, so they can only give information...Qnh/runway details etc.
Sounded like GWC was requesting to join downwind at 12:20
He was giving instructions at 14:13 "Make your standard descent please"
my local airfield and flight school
The age old carb heat debate, off at 500ft, or leave on..... I leave it on, reason, engines working anyway and should idle with it on (worth checking on the ground prior to take off), work load already high on final why make it higher (though worth doing a 'red, blue three green' check), chance of icing if it cools slightly then go around power suddenly pulls more cold air in, and easy enough to set to cold if on go around or touch and go anyway (though more so in a Cessna, just stick your thumb out!) Would love to know the reasons for setting it cold...
Hi Aaron. When and how to use carb heat is a subject that will fill pages and pages on the forum. I revert to what I was trained to do. I also follow the guidance from the CAA. The reason I was trained to turn it off on short final is to make sure the aircraft is ready for a go-around. There is a lot to do during a go-around, and go-arounds if not executed properly, can result in an accident. Making sure I'm concentrating on controlling the aircraft properly on the go-around, rather than fumbling for the carb heat lever, is the main reason why carb heat comes off at about 500 ft. Also, in a go-around, carb heat can be forgotten, robbing you of power.
500ft is when I check I'm in a stable approach. So, my short final checks are CCCC Runway Clear, Clearance obtained, Carb heat Cold, I'm Confident (stable). It works for me, but may not be appropriate for everyone, everywhere, in every airframe. Stick to what you were trained to do.
The UK CAA safety sense leaflet says : Unless otherwise stated in the Pilot's Operating Handbook or Flight Manual, the HOT position should be selected well before power is reduced and retained to touchdown. On some engine installations, to ensure better engine response and to permit a go-around to be initiated without delay, it may be recommended that the carb hot air be returned to COLD at about 200/300 ft on finals.
This often causes debate in pilots from other countries, who due to their climate, have different carb heat methods.
I hope that answers your question.
Indeed many hours of discussion can be had on this topic and everyone will be correct, and I think your right that climate comes into it too. When looking at the C172 check list, the down wind check insists you heat the carb, but return to cold (though again if I'm doing a tight circuit and want to start decending at the end of down wind I leave it on). It hasn't got a final approach check, but the go around check is 1) Throttle-full correct yaw 2) Carburettor Heat-cold, thus assuming it was previously left hot, but then to the contrary the after landing check is 1) Carburettor Heat-cold (if necessary). Again I go by my training but think it's time I refreshed my memory with the POH.
At my airfield (grass strip) we were told to set Carb heat to COLD about 200-300ft from touchdown. The reason being the hot setting allows unfiltered air to pass into the engine so would allow grass cuttings / mud / leaves etc to potentially have free access into the engine internals.
Good point :)