I think it’s because every other character’s flaws are treated as funny jokes in the writing but Pam’s character flaws are usually written as regular story.
That makes so much sense! It's like when dwight says racist stuff or admits that his Family were nazis, it's supposed to be funny. When Pam cries after a fight with Jim she's being "manipulative" and deserves to be cheated on.
This absolutely. From my perspective, Pam's flaws are way more real. They're shown in an ugly light and she's not exactly a funny character so it rubs me completely the wrong way. Used to really like her character but I'm on my 20 something-th watch through of the show and I cannot stand her now. Edit: Pam and Jim are supposed to be the "normal" ones, but that makes them come across as EXTREMELY condescending. That bothers me. Also, Pam behaves badly and is almost never punished or even called out for it. She does a lot of pretty ugly things and is simply not likeable to me. And of course, Jim is head over heels in love with her and decides to always go the extra mile while she is showered with praise from him despite her messed up behavior and blandness. That's just it to me. It's hard to believe someone IS THAT in love with her because she is so boring and not really even all that good of a person.
If there’s a character that should be getting hate it’s Phyllis. She can be very manipulative and rude and it’s hidden by her matronly depiction in the show.
Pam is probably the most human of all the characters. She gets things wrong, she feels stuck, she feels undeserving of happiness so pushes Jim away. She finds her voice and confidence but sometimes uses it badly as it's new to her. And Karen was a typical rebound. That's on Jim.
People don't like women gaining confidence. Jenna Fischer actually spoke about how she'd be approached and told that her character was so unlikeable after leaving Roy because she was more demanding with what she wanted. It's really quite silly.
Idiots don’t, not people. Most people including me love Pam. And most of the people who hate her take a surface level approach to the show, or just don’t pay attention.
I always felt like Jim and Pam were the gateway for the viewers into the ridiculous world of The Office. The other characters are caricatures, while Jim and Pam are 'real' people. Therefore, the viewers offer up less forgiveness for outrageous behavior for those two. The other characters can do and say crazy things but we can forgive them for it. In that light, when Pam is being a bit outrageous, the viewers take offense to it. They don't like that person because they see her as a person, not just a character.
And the show was 100% aware of that too! Which is why we have moments like the daycare interview sequence, which seemed very specifically written to show people from the "outside" interacting with Jim and Pam and not finding them anywhere as pleasant as they might seem when compared to the more outlandish office characters.
She acts like a human being, she's imperfect. She fucks up...like a real human being. People hate seeing themselves on TV. That's why series with shallow and flat characters are conquering Netflix.
Underrated comment. "Chosen-one superwomen" are dominating current entertainment media. Women with zero imperfections, absolutely no flaws, and infinite unearned skills are everywhere in shows and movies. Perfection is 100% shallow and flat as unnuanced villains wanting to destroy the world because evil does that.
My thoughts exactly. Roy's behavior throughout the early seasons is also clearly abusive and as someone who's been in Pam's shoes, it's easy to get emotionally caught up with someone who shows you even the tiniest sliver of kindness, and to do so without realizing you've actually caught feelings. It's not an excuse for an emotional affair, but it's an explanation outside of "pam bad". As a victim of emotional abuse incredibly similar to the telling bits we see about her dynamic with roy, and as someone who is therefore in quite a few support groups, a LOT of her behavior is very similar to that of emotionally abused women. And as far as her lying goes... her lies aren't exactly problematic for the most part. For example: boyfriend is worried boss will ruin meeting --> boss asks girlfriend about meeting --> girlfriend lies about meeting ; her "lie of omission" with roy at the bar also isn't exactly a lie considering she comes clean in private, when it's appropriate to do so. Throughout the whole series, Pam makes a lot of morally good and morally bad/meh choices, but overall I think she's one of the few characters in the show actually concerned with being a good person and improving herself. The bonfire confession I think is a great example of her trying to be more open and honest with the people around her, and to be confident, but the delivery is poor and inappropriate (as it would be when a shy person is trying to advocate for themselves as their feelings).
Jenna Fischer has said the casting director of the show told her "dare to bore me" at her audition, so I think she gave the performance she was told to give. She's not my favorite character, but the show needed a normal person like her for contrast. The show would have suffered from her absence.
I think that's why people hate her. They see themselves in her. She's a normal person who did really messed up things. Dwight, Michael, and the rest of the characters were characters. They were so ridiculous that when they did horrible stuff, you couldn't take it seriously. It was funny cause it's so removed from reality. 🤷🏽♀️ Just my opinion on the matter.
Pam’s indecisive, scared, and impulsive. But she’s also hopeful, confident, and kind. But in the end, Pam is human. Nobody is completely good or bad but something is between
Yeah but by the end of the show she gets very condescending, acting like she’s above others when she is also at fault. In the beginning of the show it was less apparent.
Yes, but Roy didn’t help the situation. He took Pam and their relationship for granted. I think the biggest problem with the Pam/Roy relationship is that they had been together since high school. So even though P&R were now adults their relationship didn’t grow with them, at least not with Pam. It took them to be with other people to have adult relationships, especially Roy.
"pam led roy on for years" are you JOKING she literally wanted to marry his stupid ass even though he dragged their engagement out for literal years, not to mention how many signs of different kinds of abuse he shows lmfao
Whenever people mention Roy becoming a better person after he and Pam broke up, some tend to think that she was holding him back due to his relationship afterwards. I tend to think that he learned from his mistakes and took those lessons to his next relationship and that is why it appears to be healthier.
I don’t really see how SHE was holding him back considering she’s the one who wanted to get married and better their relationship and he’s the one who stayed stagnant…it’s weird
i think there’s a lot of dislike for Pam because while she can be the one in the wrong sometimes, Jim is almost never painted as the bad guy. I kind of liked when Jim was co-managing with Michael because you finally got to see more of his flaws and awkward moments. It reminds us that Jim is flawed too, and let’s not forget it takes two to tango. Pam gets some hate for her interest in Jim when she was engaged to Roy, but Jim was also making moves on a woman who he knew was engaged. But overall, the audience sees Jim as such a good guy, that in comparison, Pam’s flaws stand out more. We don’t see a lot of it because it’s off-camera, but Pam does make a lot of sacrifices too with staying home to raise the kids. I think it was important to make Pam’s flaws more apparent to the audience, so they could expand on her as a character instead of just chalking her up to be “Jim’s wife” after they got together.
yep i dont quite understand why people hate pam, but personally i am annoyed at jim, because when both him and pam do something wrong, he rarely gets any consequences, and he's always painted more sympathetically because he is technically the co-main character
@@cunix3433no, people hate both, this was just conveniently left out to call the haters sexist. this video isn't an honest explanation of why people hate pam (and jim) at all
I think It says a lot that people like Pam in the firsts seasons when she is your regular quiet shy girl next door and then people hate her when she becomes confident, speaks for helself and developes her own personality
She literally never speaks for herself, thats the most annoying part. She wants evryone to read her mind. Although i feep like she made up for everything she didnt do right in the last episode
idk how you could read the beach outburst as cringe. it was a character finally developing the confidence to say what she had been feeling for a long time. it was a moment of growth and the action that led to her and jim finally getting together.
There was something that would inevitably push them together, her actions made it happen and he decided he would leave Karen because, while she was great, was a rebound and Jim wanted to be with Pam not Karen. It’s sad, but it’s what happens.
I want to mention that I didn't understand Pam's part in the Athlead story arc until I became a parent. Pam has been having to watch TWO young children, a baby and a toddler all by herself for either the entire weekend, or even more after Jim starts going part time at his regular work. That is not just a small inconvenience, that is INCREDIBLY difficult. Along with that, they already planned a life out in the suburbs with their kids. Moving to Philly also means moving away from their support network and family (which all live in Scranton), which means they would have to find new childcare! All this not even knowing if the company would even work out. MOST start ups fail. And it's only because we know it succeeds that we retroactively hate Pam for holding Jim back from it. I feel like people online seem to forget Jim and Pam have kids. They aren't a young childless couple who can just take huge risks and uproot their lives without really deeply considering it and planning for it.
Thank you, exactly this. What did people think Pam was doing all week when Jim was partying in Philly? Drinking wine and complaining woefully? No... she had to look after two children by herself, which she didn't sign up for..
Yep! People like to compare it to Jim "allowing" her to go to NY for art school and fully supporting her in that and not acknowledging the fact that they weren't even engaged yet, until she was gone, so there weren't a hundred things on the line for them like when he was at Athlead. She was rightfully upset and cautious about the move and leaving her job and he was incredibly selfish and almost threatening with his ultimatums.
@@blazingapparition2687 yep. They talked about her applying, he was aware of it being a thing, and the NY art program was only for 3 months. It had an end date. They didn't have kids, weren't engaged initially, didn't have a house and mortgage. Jim going off to Philly, they have 2 small children, a house, they're married, Jim made family affecting decisions without talking to his wife about it and she was left to have to look after the kids, the house, and work full time while Jim is off doing his thing.
How does anyone attribute Roy's off screen growth as pam holding him back??? It's clearly pam finally severing toes with him that he realized he was a terrible person.
I read the Roy's growth as a parallel to Pam's arc following their breakup of how neither of them were willing to grow out of their boxes at the beginning of the series; they were highschool sweethearts who were engaged for years and never bothered to grow from that. I am not discouraging marrying your highschool sweetheart and certainly not encouraging in wild acts during your twenties (like Ryan), but the scenario clearly did not work out well for Pam and Roy.
Pam in the beginning, while with Roy, was shy and careful and scared. When she got with Jim she became confident and happy. You can't hate her for that. She went from a bad, abusive relationship to a great, supportive one and her personality changed. That happens in real life and is a sign of happiness. If you hate her for that, you're hating on a character having confidence in herself.
@@Tanaconasaperson when he found out she kissed jim, he literally broke all the alcohol in the bar, and almost punchs jim, thats not something a not abusive person would do in a sitution like that
She was just annoying at times. I didnt really like when they made her compulsive to a fault. Jim had to sit and respect her marriage/relationship but once he got in one she disregarded him & karen feelings and just said i love him deal with it. She quit the job with michael but then once she realized it was dumb she blamed him when she knows how he operates and no one forced her to do it. Ik characters grow just those instances felt like bad writing other than that she was fine.
She didn't evolve she became a totally different person. She wanted to follow her dream that would lead to nothing Jim being a fool allowed and when it was time for him to follow his dream that would actually lead to something she objected.
Ngl Pam is more relatable than Jim and goes through arguably the biggest character development on the show. She’s a top character on the show imo and integral to the plot
I find her more human than Jim. He seems wooden at times and not relatable at all. I relate more to Dwight and have come to respect him more and dislike Jim less for wasting more time than Michael with his kid-like pranks
@@fawneckman9297 A lot of people seem to think Jim is peak character development. I love the guy but getting down to it he's very unrealistic tbh. He barely changes as the show goes on and never truly develops past the "office idiot" personality. The only times he actually shows a more real side is anytime Pam is involved
@@Trinket_Master I think he developed, going from someone who was staunchly non-committal with regards to his job and life in general, to someone who was more committed, around Season 6 (they didn't need to add the line about Jim only slacking when things were good. He was pretty much past that point). After that, Jim found himself in a rut again, before taking a chance on something new and inspiring, and when he found some success at the new venture, he gave it up for his family. And, while he could be annoyed by Dwight, Jim showed that he would go so far as to wrestle him to the ground, to prevent Dwight from unfairly losing his job, though Season 2 showed that Jim cared much more than he let on (starting with taking Dwight to the ER, after he got a concussion)
A big reason why Pam is really hated is Jim. Everyone thinks that Jim is too good to be true for her and he settled for less when he left Karen. In all the grand gestures by Jim people really forget all the subtle sacrifices Pam made everytime to be with him too! Pam is also one of the most intuitive characters throughout the show she always knew when someone wasn't in their best of moods and tried to make it better on her end which is something she rarely got from others!
Nobody thinks that, he IS too good for her. It’s no mystery he loves her more than she loves him. 9/10 “cute” moments they have together it’s him doing something for her. Him coming to her rescue, him being the hero. Whereas without her, he wouldn’t be missing out on anything bc she does nothing
@@ctorreyou literally reiterated what I said, Jim's gestures were so big and eye catchy for the audience that nobody cared when Pam would silently make a lot of sacrifices like when he left to make his own company she handled everything back home on her own without once losing patience as oppose to Jim, she even left her art career because long distance was becoming hard on their relationship along with the fact that she didn't see results. I'm not saying that she deserves a lot of recognition for it but to some extent it explains the hate. Not to forget the way their relationship progressed was also a very true representation of what real life relationships are, most times one partner secretly makes sacrifices that the world does not see.
No i hated her when she always whine about her job, and when Jim finally got a job he loves and has huge potential, she didnt support him and decide to stay at the job she used to hate, because it makes her comfortable. To the point he had to quit the job for her. She’s so pathetic. One little thing that makes her uncomfortable she’ll play victim.
When Pam said she wasn’t sorry for what she said at the campfire, I didn’t interpret that as her being a bitch. I interpreted that as her being confident enough to stand by what she said because it was her truth. She realized that she has the right to voice how she feels, even if it makes others uncomfortable. She even said that the fact that he was with Karen was fine and she just missed his friendship. She didn’t lie about her romantic feelings for Jim, but she also didn’t try to break Jim and Karen up either. Karen interpreted it as bitchy because she sees Pam as a threat to her relationship and was simply scared, as Karen is human as well. Pam deserves to say how she truly feels after keeping it inside for years and settling for less. She didn’t deserve the abuse from Roy when she lied to him. She was learning to be more honest with herself and others. I love Pam’s character arc in the first three seasons. It shows how human she is. She is unique because she knows that she’s flawed unlike the many other characters that are comically detached from reality. I can personally relate to her and the lessons she’s learned.
Like an overlap is hard. Especially when Roy and Pam had so many problems. It's to her credit that she gave Roy a chance even after a two year engagement and even tried to speak with him after the pepper spray incident. And not try to poach Jim as if he was a free beach chair. She even kinda made friends with Karen. Planned a fun party with her. And Karen didn't deserve to live with a guy who only liked her. She cried for two weeks and met a man who married her for her. Not because she was cool. She became a high powered manager and seems happy to be a mother and a boss. It sucks to get out of relationship. But even Roy was bettered because he broke up with the wrong person. Comically so. This is probably the most realistic example of cheating in the series and really technically wasnt cheating, just people treating each other poorly while going through stressful turmoil. Jim's bad reaction to unrequited love Pam's indecision because of bad relationship in her past. Roy's explosive anger at facing his flaws and Karen being blindsided and naively hoping that all of Jim's red flags are work arounds if you apply enough ultimatums. They all became better people.
I don't know that you can say Pam held Roy back. He clearly held her back when it came to pursuing art. I think Roy's growth came from finding his passion after the break up. Their relationship was one of familiarity and safety, not love or passion. From what we were shown, Roy never showed any desire to do anything and clearly put his relationship with his brother above Pam.
But she didn’t really pursue her art interest either. She failed in the course she was taking and came back running to Jim. I personally dont hate Pam but I do think she is a loser. Just a good looking loser. I feel like Jim liked her coz of her loser ness.
I love Pam, she's mostly great. The only ones I really hated were Ryan, last season Andy and Gil. I didn't hate Michael but I probably would if he was my boss
I honestly had no idea that Pam was so hated, she's one of my favorite characters in the show (I'm on Season 4) and she's part of what makes The Office one of the best sitcoms ever
She was my 2nd favorite character behind Michael until the forced drama between her and Jim (I never liked jim) in season 9 where I couldn’t stand her, not sure if you are aware but something big happens at the end of season 7, sure there were some good episodes after but that’s where the show should have ended.
I think the reason Pam’s imperfection seems to stick out more is because she’s not cluelessly stupid in a way the other characters are most of the time. You can write off Michael, Dwight, Andy, and many of the others as being too unaware of themselves to realize what they’re doing is wrong or dumb. But since Pam is portrayed as more “normal” with a greater sense of what’s socially acceptable, it makes the times she does similar actions as the others more out of left field. Another good (and properly done) example of this is Ryan - he was also portrayed in the same way in the early seasons, which is why he was rightfully hated once he started screwing things up with Dunder Mifflin in Season 4.
Agree with you all the way up to the point that Ryan however intentionally was taking on the pantheon of a corporate shill. That is to say he was intentionally conducting himself as the a cold corporate operator and was largely the "villain" foiling the objectives of the "hero / protagonist" (Michael) and the little people (the Scranton staff). Pam was rarely intentionally mean, or to the degree that she was it was mostly reflective of interpersonal conflicts that we all have with rivals (Karen and others she may have conflicted with from time to time). Also Ryan was easy to dislike because he was a clout chaser from the beginning who was overly self-assured, as oppose to Pam being way easier to sympathize with as she was very self-consciously and overly self-unassured. She was even walked over and somewhat humiliated for having a low level job (clerk) and then poorly performing when she got a higher level job (sales rep). She was annoying at times and the bad guy in a couple situations; but all the characters were.
I have always loved Pam. She lacks courage and charisma and is a little self-centred at times but she is always trying to be braver and battles with her flaws and doesn’t try to be anything other than herself. I think that’s pretty cool.
I dont hate her too much. I mean i just didnt like the way she treat Jim. Im still thinking he deserved better. Pam never did something for Jim, he left his job and girlfriend and she didnt even ask him to go out or something. She is so cute but alone
@@anothergg2692 she left art school for him, took care of both their kids practically alone while he was pursuing his dream and moved to Philly so Jim could continue pursuing it
As someone who has always been the quiet one growing up and put up with "friends" who constantly walked all over me, I loved seeing Pam in the 3rd season. Making little changes all the way through and slowly standing up for herself more and more until Beach Games. It's such a great thing to see, especially as it happened over time. There are some moments where I don't always like how she acts, but that sums up every character in the show! I also find she is so relatable when she breaks down to Jim, saying she's scared that she isn't enough for him, I'm sure so many people can relate to that feeling, and to see her finally overcome that insecurity at the end shows her growth. I get why some people don't like her though.
Literallyyyy People get mad at her for breaking down about things to jim and being scared about making changes like athleap, but most people in a relationship have probably had those fears I myself know BOTH me and my boyfriend have talked to eachother about boundaries and things were not ready for, or being scared were not enough, and I usually always cry when we have those conversations Doesn’t mean we don’t eventually grow past it and become better, it’s BEST that she tells jim these things, cause if she holds it in, it’ll only create more doubt, which will lead to way worse. Besides, Pam eventually was ready for the changes she was scared of, and soon they moved on to better things, she just needed some time
@@pacrat190 exactly this! It's a pretty normal thing in a relationship where you have a good level of communication, when you have worries like that (which are normal) it's good to talk them over, get back on the same page. It's not manipulative or wrong, it's compromising. I think people forget that Jim went behind Pam's back with Athlead, they had agreed he wouldn't be a part of it... then he secretly was a part of it... they agreed to invest a small amount of savings in it... he threw ALL their savings into it when they had two young kids and a mortgage (ultimately it worked out as the company was a hit, but a lot of startups fail so this was a huge risk). Add in Pam being exhausted juggling a full time job, raising two young kids and their house, and Jim being over worked and tired from travelling between two jobs, it's no wonder tensions were high between them! But in the end she turned it around and did her big Jim gesture at a time when she was actually happy and excited to move and go for it!
Pam was a cheater, liar, manipulative, feminists, from beginning to end. She didn't develope and if that is relative to your life? Your life needs new choices lol.
Roy didnt care about her, what she wants, how she feels, he mostly just put her in some position and she didnt know how to defent herself. It was just old school love without knowing what is love. But than Pam seen it in Bob Vence or what is his name. He truly love Phylis and Pam wanted the same and she realized she has nothing like it with Roy. She only kissed once and then she breaked up with Roy. Thats why he changed until she came back. IT will happend to any Roy and thats totally ok. He was like pain in ass and than people like him hate her, poor boy. Action = reaction
"Beauty in the ordinary," I think Pam was given this line because she embodied the show more than anyone else. She's ordinary but she's beautiful. We've probably all known someone like her at some point.
In a cast full of characters that are morally questionable at best and blissfully unaware of it, Pams character was constructed to be the opposite of that, the self-aware yet shy voice of reason. If she slips and messes up, the viewer is much more unforgiving with that. She and her actions are being held to a much higher standard and its almost comical how much that differs from what we expect of most of the other characters. Pam in this series is being treated as the typical big sister archetype where she is granted little to no room for failure. I am very wary of people who are passionately hating on her.
Yes, at first. But she stops being shy and becomes smug and arrogant. Which is fine, but not when the show insists on systematically vindicating her for being smug and arrogant. That's how you kill comedic characters. Not understanding this is why American comedies are generally significantly less funny than British comedies. Americans always start rewarding their funny and oblivious characters too much, which makes them not funny immediately. Chandler, Leslie Knopes etc. Very few American comedies avoid this stupidity entirely. Seinfeld, Larry Sanders and Arrested Development are the only TV shows that really come to mind. The Office did it with nearly all its characters. Even Dwight had his lunacy increasingly validated. But the worst two are Jim and Pam, or Smug and Smugger as i call them. Comedy is an exaggerated personal tragedy. If you let sentimentality reign it is impossible to make comedy at all. All you can do then are cheap gags and puns, which aren't really funny if it's the only thing you do.
I wonder why this is. I'm quite similar to her yet oddly enough I despise her. I think everyone else's personality is so outrageous that you're unable to apply normal standards to them. You end up accepting them just as they are, but with Pam, she's the only 'normal' one in the show, so you're forced to apply your standards to her. I think also, everyone one the show seems to transcend their position in life - you don't think of any of them as 'office workers', their personalities have elevated them to a completely different level, whereas Pam perfectly represents that mundane, mediocre, keeping your head down and getting on with it mentality that anyone watching is completely repulsed by, probably because that's what they're trying to escape by watching the show.
also, people LOVE to bring up the office administrator thing, even though Pam got paid, she actually did things to help the office. (resolution board, planned events, etc.). HOWEVER, they forget that the assistant to the regional manager/assistant regional manger thing came with a pay raise (jim says this when micheal makes him his #2 in season 3) and jim said in season 5 (when he was talking to Charles Minor) that no real responsibilities came with the job title. so pam was doing things and getting paid (as she should) while jim was doing nothing and getting paid. but yeah lets trash pam
Absolutely one of the worst human beings alive. She always wanted jim to find something to be inspired by, something to make him want to express himself. But as soon as he did and it started getting hard for her, she tried to take it all away from him. Terrible wife, terrible mother, nothing but a spoiled, selfish, little girl
@@RabidDisposition Why would Pam want to risk her family for a dream that may fly or not. Jim didnt tell her about investing their savings and just decided to pursue this job leaving her to pick up the slack. Would be different if they hadnt started a family. Why was she a bad mother? She is the only one on the show who consistently felt bad when others when they were hurting! I like how you can ignore what other characters did that was way worse. Your definition of spoiled is way off as only Jim spoiled her and that was because he adored her.
At least she didn't complain about a microwave smelling like popcorn, complain someone should clean it, then ignore the fact she was the one making popcorn.
Man, it's even better. She was using the microwave in the break room during their lil club meeting to make popcorn because the OTHER microwave smells like popcorn
@TRILL FISH Honestly I think Phyllis is just a bitch. Even before Pam took her clients when Phyllis found out she was dating Jim she called her a slut and accused her of giving Jim special treatment over the rest of the sales team.
@@InitialPC I think Phyllis just is a generally nice person with a dark side. But I like that someone her age and look can' have more depth then a popped monocle.
I think people don't mind when characters who aren't the protagonist do bad things. Everybody loves creed and he probably killed people and steals everything. People don't hate angela who routinely cheats. Pam is supposed to be a realistic character and is a protagonist. So when they do things "bad" we hold them more accountable
@@derekfurst6233 Actually, I think it might be more that "the series tells us this character is a horrible person, the things they do is horrible and so we don't need to mention it because we all understand that's the case" as opposed to "the series is telling us that this character is good and we should like them, but when we examine the things they do-- they aren't so good." It's often the protagonist that gets framed as likable and so you are correct that it is usually going to be that character where the disconnect happens. But it can be a minor character that gets framed as being "good" but then doesn't live up to that moral standard and would be very frustrating to the audience.
I think that's what it comes down to. If you dislike pam I get it. But the way people zero in on her as if she's the only person on the show who's messed up or does awful things is just weird. I do think some of it is rooted in sexism. Because people view everything through the lens of how the men in her life were affected without understanding her motivations. Whereas when some of the male characters do something wrong, people are more understanding of that character. When dwight has affairs with angela over and over people sympathize with dwight as being hopelessly in love and endearing. When pam is in love with jim while hes with Karen, shes a homewrecker and morally bankrupt. When other characters lie, people just accept as part of the arc or the joke. When pam lies, she's some sociopathic pathological liar. Again I think its because people view pam entirely through the lens of this manic pixie dream girl that is supposed to just make jim happy and never have any flaws or motivations or ambitions of her own. They don't view her as a character, just an object for Jim's affections
I used to hate Phyllis for what I believe was sexism because whilst I didn't consciously change my mind, I became indifferent to her as just a person, whereas in the past I used to associate her with a certain type of annoying mom figure. I believe the sexism is rooted in younger people, usually men, being told constantly that making difficult choices and "nagging" are undesirable traits but never told why those traits occur. They're usually not exhibited in young women because of lack of responsibility and young women generally getting whatever they want, so they have the privilege of acting more masculine without consequences. Older women are labelled as annoying.
Although part of the frustration might be the idea that the perfect girl should be flawless, and Pam is painted as a straightman. There's a lot to it. There's also excessive love for Jim, or Walter White in the case of Skylar
Dude saying it's sexism is a cop out. I personally didnt enjoy Pam she subconsciously reminded me of girls ive dated so i just kind of shut her out of my mind. But yeh i didn't hate her like some other people do, just wasn't fond of her.
i don't really hate her but i hate some of the actions she makes, the ONE MAIN DECISION is kissing jim while she's still in a relationship with roy. i know he was neglectful but all that is thrown out the window when she kissed jim back.
@@legatelanius1465 I mean she broke it off with Roy like right after Granted she really should’ve told Roy the first time they broke up rather than later on, but at least she broke it off like that night Tho she definitely was emotionally cheating on Roy, tho for their whole relationship it was accidental because she didn’t develop feelings for jim(that she realized were romantic) up until pretty close to when he left
well it's complicated not to "hold back" your partner when his new career move is basically leaving you alone with 2 kids and a full-time job in another city. he had a family and several responsabilities but acted like he was a teenager with nothing to lose. also it wasn't even something safe, i mean, most start ups fail within a few years. also, i don't think she held Roy back from anything. she wanted to get married and grow in life but he never took anything seriously. i don't know, maybe they were just not right for each other and did better after separating
Why did she get hate for "holding Roy back" when he wouldn't arrange a marriage date also Jim moving away was ruining their relationship who would want that srsly people act like life is so simple
@@benjaminjohnson235 right? she even tried getting back together with him but he just wouldn't take her seriously. it's great that he found someone else who was the right one for him, and so did she
She could have moved. She didn't like anyone from work anyways. If she moved Jim would be there always. Jim was gone for a few days out of the week. Not to mention her job was just a minimum wage job that was becoming obsolete. Any other job would have been the better because atleast she can move up, but naah. If she did move Jim would have been able to help her. Apparently you can't take risks or work hard for your families future or struggle for a bit while coming up, according to you guys, smh. She saw Jim was happy and thriving even being quirky and funny again. She was so insecure that that made her give him an ultimatum. She almost cheated on him and basically made him quit his dream job or else she'd divorce him. She acts like the man was out there committing crimes or using drugs or cheating. Nope he was working two jobs for their families future, lmao.
@@cloudyns they had kids and a whole life in Scranton, it's not that easy lol. she was alone with their kids for 80% of the week, she was exhausted. I get it that he was doing it for his family and etc but it was a pretty risky move and Pam never liked risks. you're telling me you'd be ok taking care of your kids while your partner is in another state playing basketball with his idols? come on. and it's not about being insecure, it's about being overwhelmed and exhausted. and he wasn't being quirky and etc, he was being completely divorced from reality at times. remember that scene where he yells at her on the phone because she couldn't record Cece's play? that's fucking exhausting, no wonder she gave him an ultimatum
I think the nature of cringe humor. That they create a moment of such emotional vulnerability that no one knows how to react. So that the audience feels as weird as the people in the scene. A socially appropriate response would be unlikely for something so shocking, and not gotten a laugh when he jumped the fence and moved to south america.
Oh Fuck no...Toby isn't even someone who'd be harmful to Pam. And Jim has done tooo much for their relationship already.Pam just existed while Jim did everything
I've been made more pro Pam because the concentrated hate on her while turning a blind eye to the far worse acts of the other characters is ridiculous.
Yeah a lot of the things she does that makes people hate her someone else also did and arguably was worse. Her flirting with Jim while dating Roy (or staying with Roy knowing she has feelings for Jim) Jim dates Katy and Karen basically to try use them to get over Pam and then dumps them in horrible ways when he suddenly realizes it isn't working. She lies to become office manager. Ryan lied and his lie meant that he became Kelly's superior, despite her running her department alone for years. Pam's job didn't do that. People say Jim supported Pam going to art school but she didn't support his dreams. Totally different situations. They were not even engaged, no kids, no mortgage and MOST IMPORTANTLY Jim was aware every step of the way. He knew she applied, knew when she got in and knew how long she'd be gone. Jim and Pam agreed that he wouldn't take the job and then he went behind her back, took the job, hid it from her and then she was expected to pick up the pieces for an unknown time period. I just think it's weird these points make people hate her when they are pretty mild compared to other characters
The thing is, most of the other characters aren’t written to be liked. Pam on the other hand is sort of a “good guy” on the show - so her misdeeds stick out more. Me, I just really dislike how she basically made Jim give up his dream job. And to be managed by Dwight of all people…
@@izzynobre Pam did want Jim to have his dream job that's she was willing to move to Texas so he can have it. When it came to Philly and and taking the job there Pam was understandably upset because because Jim didn't handle the situation well at all. Plus because of his job in Philly, Jim was putting his family on the back burner. Also the show was about the characters being in Scranton so if Pam had left to be with him then they wouldn't have been on the show. Pam was written to be more normal, and real, than the other characters,but that doesn't necessarily mean nicer. Also it was Jim's own fault by having to work under Dwight because Jim was offered the regional manager position and he turned it down.
@@melchiorviguiedesplaces8184 The most toxic compared to normal people you mean? Cause many of their coworkers would be fired within their first year just by being their normal selves. Michael obviously would be.
I have empathy for Pam’s character. Her fiancé didn’t treat her with the utmost respect and called her his girlfriend. He didn’t make an effort in their relationship as much as she needed emotionally. She wanted her relationship to work out with Roy, but knew deeply she was in love with Jim. In later seasons, she was a new mother with a husband that didn’t tell her he had invested in a company and was rarely home because he often worked. She wanted him to be happy with his job, but I understand why she didn’t want to pack up and leave her hometown for a completely new environment. Throughout the seasons she works on personal growth. For example, standing up for herself, finding confidence, and realizing she’s good enough for Jim. I find her personal struggles to be realistic. She’s not perfect, but no one is.
@@jhonklan3794Michael was sleeping with a married woman after she told him she was married, Dwight and Angela slept together while she was engaged to Andy, Oscar was sleeping with Angela’s husband, and Stanley was having an affair too. I’m just saying that people rarely bring them up but talk a lot about the Pam and Jim kiss
Failed in art. Broke off the engagement with Roy. Flirted shamelessly with Jim while being engaged. Overreacted by slapping and insulting the boss just cos her mother was dating Michael. Became fat and unlikable in later seasons. Failed saleswoman. Stopped Jim for pursuing his dream job. She was likeable at the beginning, don't get me wrong, but later became so terrible when she started having her own voice and opinion.
@@sidmenon8470 “Failed in art” - Literally won an art contest, painted for Scranton “ Broke of the engagement with Roy” - An engagement that was made three years ago with no wedding in sight (until Roy finally came the conclusion that an engagement shouldn’t be that long) - It was showed that Roy and Pam were not that good for each other and his and her character developed after their final break up “Flirted shamelessy with Jim” - She didn’t see it as flirting and felt uncomfortable when people marked their talking as such and even distanced herself when things went too far( I mean the episode were they are in Dwight’s karate club) - Jim also still had feelings for her even though he was with Karen “Overreacting and slapping her Boss cuz he was dating her Mother” - First of all imagine your boss with your mother or father - Then imagine someone like Michael with your Mother and Father - She slapped Michael not only because he was dating her mother but also that he broke up with her on her birthday “Became fat and unlikeable in later season” - For the first one I have no words. Straight up insulting people for being fat is just awful - In later seasons she got character development and became more confident ( if that’s what you hate about a woman okay👀) “ Failed Saleswoman” - That is actually true, she had the worst numbers besides Andy “ Stopped Jim for pursuing his dream Job” - Carried her Job, art career and family alone while Jim was at Philadelphia even though Jim didn’t talk with her on anything before but she still agreed with it and made it possible for him - In the end she talked with Daryl to make it possible for Jim to have his dream job again, sold the house and moved with him and the Kids to Philadelphia Look Pam isn’t my favorite Character either but the points you made are so dumb and I have to ask did you even watch the fucking show ??
From the beginning Pam wasn't supposed to be interesting, or funny, or smart. She was meant to be boring. While casted Jenna Fischer was literally asked to be boring. Though it doesn't mean she can't have some of that simple sweetness in her It always surprised me how people villainize her for flirting with Jim while engaged with someone so abusive with literal violent tendensies as Roy. She even was the one to blame for voilent outburst Roy has like what the actual fuck?? I also like the fact that Jim can flirt with someone who's engaged and it's fine, but Pam become a bad person for being on the other side of that. I mean all the characters are pretty messed up but Pam always gets all the hate because she's the most relatable and vulnurable of them all
Angela had a full on affair with Dwight while with Andy, and cheated on the Senator with Dwight too but somehow Pam is the worst? 🥴🙄 Smh I'm done with the Pam hate, she is flawed but she is not a bad person. Jim kissed her once and then she called off her wedding! Roy treated her like dog shit and flirted with many girls all the time. He sucked so bad, and he was was abusive and violent but somehow Pam is the one to blame? Roy didn't give a shit about Pam, and she was confused about her feelings for Jim. She never made moves on Jim while she was with Roy, and he kissed her once then broke it off with Roy. I'm not saying it was right but people act like she was the worst when she wasn't. Michael, Angela, Ryan, Roy, Todd Packer, Jan, Meridith I can go on and on!
FYI, titular isn't just a synonym for main character. "Titular character" means "the one the title refers to." The Office doesn't have any titular characters.
Personally, I loved the character of Pam. I think that she is possibly one of the most well written, realistic characters ever made. Sure, did she do some questionable things? Yes. But she’s only human. Now, everyone is entitled to her own opinion, but I feel like most of the reasons people say they hate her are pretty much bullshit and unfair.
Her jokes don't land she almost eats spoiled yogurt and almost dressed up as Hitler in NY gave Meridith lice cheated on Roy and he had to spend all the Jetski money to fix the damage at Pour Richards because of her indescretion also lost his job and got fat she quit art school lied about being office administrator to Gabe got banned from Chilis for over consumption didn't get any beans with her frizzy haired head shot didn't give Angela a save the date initially to her wedding put her weight on the scale when they were trying to win vacation days when it was family only and helped Ryan steal shoes from the bowling alley. That's a lot of bad in a lady imo lmao
@@noveaubleu702 “that’s alot of bad in a lady” If I looked at a decade of your life, deliberately cherry picked and often misconstrued a bunch of random minor offenses, I have no doubt that I could make you look about as bad. Same with pretty much fucking everybody except for like, Jesus. Humans have flaws. I think it’s kind of creepy how you seem to have went to go and research this much shit to try and defame a fucking fictional character. Like, some of this stuff I don’t even remember at all.
@@elijahfordsidioticvarietys8770 it was a light hearted joke and you actually made it weird I didn't go and research I liked a comedy and have seen them. Go watch the show all that stuff happened. I didn't have to do research.The whole show was based around Pams evolution but whatever you obviously didn't get me joking thats your problem
@@noveaubleu702 “it was a light hearted joke” Yeah, no it wasn’t. I mean, what the fuck is that joke even supposed to be? You hate Pam. “I didn’t have to do research.” Yes. You definitely remembered all that obscure Office trivia off the top of your head, and it also didn’t take you like a whole hour to write it down.
So. Let me get this straight. Jim knowingly chases after a woman that he knows is engaged to another man, but yet the woman is solely to blame? Ok. Jim buys his parents house for him and Pam to live in, but does not ask Pam for her opinion, but Pam is manipulative? Jim uses their money to buy into a business, but does not consult with Pam, and doesn't tell her immediately, yet Pam is a liar? Ok. Jim starts a relationship with Karen, and doesn't tell her he is still in love with Pam, and again, Pam is the liar? Ok. The sad fact is, most of the women that don't like Pam is because they like Jim, regardless of the afore mentioned issues. Most men don't like her because how dare she not get with Jim immediately. How about we hold everyone to the same standards, and stop expecting more from women.
They're both at fault, Jim for being a disrespectful simp who is deliberately trying to ruin an engagement, and Pam for being super flirty and clearly having feelings for him and stringing him along
Wow, I really loved Pam. I loved her arc from "visibly nervous and shy" to "confident and self assured". I think she definitely went through some rough parts, but I think everyone does. Everyone makes mistakes, and try to justify them after with some not great actions. I sure as hell have done that in the past, and even though I'm working on it, I'm sure I'll make mistakes in the future. I could see myself in Pam, and respected the hell out of her by the end. (She also really made me giggle some times)
The person that made this video is just a misogynist and has no idea what they’re talking about. The whole video was basically “I liked Pam when she was quieter and didn’t speak out about what she wanted” and saying that she led Roy on, when HE was the one that was postponing the wedding. Like come on
Yeah I didn't like her at first because she was mean but also played the victim. I don't mind if she is a little ruthless as long as she doesn't try to play the victim like the first couple of seasons.
@@zeaferjones1404 when was Pam ever mean? And when did she ever play the victim? I’m genuinely curious cause I haven’t rewatched the show in years lol. Only clips from time to time.
Unpopular opinion: Jim is the real villain and not Roy, Jim destroys a upcoming wedding bc he keeps flirting with pam. Pam cancels the wedding and then Jim is hitting on Karen. Jim is always picking on dwight but when it’s reversed. He is almost acting like a little child. Jim wanted to be regional manager. But because Micheal is already the manager, he defends his position ofcourse. During the call Micheal has with corporate Jim is almost crying lol. So during the time Jim is co manager he totaly changes to a manager that is very full of himself. Jim didn’t let Pam to achieve her art dreams etc. But totally started a business without saying Pam so she just needs to accept it.
@user-ri9hx2cc6k but it was very clear the she didn't love Roy. And I understand why Jim would want to try and replace michael as he was not good at being manager but was great at sales
@@gator_productions not only that but roy sometimes treated her like garbage, jim didn't let pam to achieve her art dreams? when Jan told her that there was an opening in design in NY he went crazy and didnt let her go, he was an A-hole the entire time with her, i dont like Pam either, but that was a toxic relationship
All the Pam haters make me like her even harder. She's the most real character on the show faced with decisions that would affect her life. She's flawed and thats what makes her real. She's not someone who did the right thing 100% of the time. No one in real life is. She wasn't an over exaggeration of a caricature like they did to Kevin or Meridith. (Whos only characteristic became being fat and stupid and a nymphomania drunk) Pam had character development. Like you said in the video, she was shy, timid and didn't stand up for herself in the beginning but she later gained that confidence. She might had done things I didn't agree with but life is making some bad choices and learning and growing from them. That's why I like Pam.
Lol. She is the worst even if you like her. She almost destroyed roy's life. I am pretty sure jim is gonna leave her. This type of women don't deserve good men
People hate her because her character development and personality was portrayed more maturely than others. If this was real life, Dwight shooting Stanley with a tranquilizer, Jan making Michael get multiple vasectomies, Michael injuring Daryl and running over Meredith, the multiple affair arcs, are way objectively worse than what Pam has done but are viewed as comedic relief so it’s acceptable. Not to mention, Pam is greatly sexually harassed and objectified in the show.
Pam is a human being, always a joy to watch. I didn't find her beach outburst cringe, she finally stood up for herself which is very hard to do when you aren't used to it. As a person with a fear of confrontation I really enjoyed that moment. Watching her discover her voice and become more assertive was very inspiring to me. Also, I always hated how people treated Pam. Most think she sleeps around and is like Meredith in that way just because she looks more appealing than the other women in the office. The fact that people hate her so much is a tragedy.
Let's not forget that Roy tried to discourage Pam from going for the graphic design training in New York. Roy changing after the breakup wasn't because she was holding him back, he is not a victim of her complacency, it's also possible that he changed because he probably realized that he had some unhealthy behaviours and traits which made him lose Pam and his job, he learnt and grew. Earlier on, Pam tried to convince Jim to take a better paying job, but he chose to stay. (The job in Maryland)...she did care about his professional development. When they were married she just wanted to be more involved in the decision making process...Jim often made moves that would affect them both without involving her, like when he invested their savings without consulting her, it worked out but it also easily could have failed, she wasn't trying to hold him back and she even compromised by letting go of her own perspective to reason the way Jim did about spontaneous decision making (hence the final decision to sell the house). Same with Roy when she decided not to go to New York after he gave her his reasons for why he thought it was a bad idea.
I LOVE pam. She is honestly who I aspire to be, kind, persistent, and loving. She is so sweet and funny, and I just love her character. I can't remember the name of the actress for the life of me, but she did an astounding job
She is simply the most easy-on-eyes, improvisatory, constantly evolving and compassionate character on the show. None of the viewers I know have ever said anything negative about her. The title and contents of the video literally come as a surprise.
She is why i watched the series even though I know Michael Dwight and Jim are funnier Pam is the heart and emotion of the show and Jenna is a great actress!
I feel like the argument "pam held jim back" is short sighted and misogynistic. They had two children together which are equally jims responsibility but pams just expected to deal with it and raise them on her own whilst jim is in philly whilst holding down her own full time job. The reason it was a decision THEY discussed is because it was a decision that would massively affect them BOTH arguably it would affect pam the most. So I just dont see this argument as valid, is she just supposed to drop everyrhing to support Jims dream? She is a person too and has her own life to think about and the lives of both their children. If Jim was unhappy with their decision he should have told her. imo although following your ambition is important once you create a family you have to start thinking as a unit to some extent, Jim is in the wrong here as far as i'm concerned.
Misogynistic? Jim supports her dream to be an artist, but Pam didn’t support him to build a company. A company that was actually working pretty successfully. Now, obviously they didn’t have kids when Pam wanted to do art, but seriously, it’s misogynistic to think a wife should support her husband and Vice versa even when it’s not easy?? That’s a stretch. My real issue with Pam doesn’t start and end there though. While her not supporting him wasn’t a cool move, it was understandable. The big issue is when she told him she did support him but then resent him anyway. The show was brain dead at that point anyway, so it makes sense they did a character assassination instead of just ending the show, but I’m shocked how people will take Pam’s side and say Jim is the bad guy. They both made mistakes, but only one made genuine attempts to resolve the issue.
@@jcltheutuber9146 The issue isn't that Jim went to philly. It's the lack of communication and the assumption that she should just deal with the kids herself (would also point out that they didn't have kids when pam went to art school and he didn't know pams mum would be able to help out when he made the decision). I didnt say Jim was misogynistic or that its mysogynistic to support your SO. Misogynistic of viewers to blame those episodes on Pam considering she wasn't the one who went and made a huge life decision that would affect them both without talking to Jim first.
I completely agree, once you're married and you have more than one child, your decisions don't just affect yourself personally it affects both yourself and your whole family. Those risks can be good or bad so it wasn't bad that this MARRIED couple made a decision together instead of apart and without the consideration of their children
@@jcltheutuber9146 You're comparing it to a time they weren't married and didn't have children and could take all the risk they wanted? No. Not the same in any aspect. Jim was behaving like a dbag and held his prior support against her as an ultimatum. That isn't what good husbands do. Karen was a rebound and nothing more. Jim treated her badly and she deserved better than him which is exactly what she got marrying someone else.
i listened to the podcast ep where jenna talked about peoples hatred for pam and WOW IS SHE RIGHT as SOON as pam gains a voice, some confidence, so GODDAMN SELF-ESTEEM people turn their backs on her. eventually she stopped thinking of herself the way roy made her feel and began looking through jims eyes, the man who treated her how she deserved to be treated, and people blame her. lets put this to bed ( thats what she said). PAM IS A STRONG WOMEN WHO WAS FINDING HERSELF IN THE FIRST SEASONS AND BELIVES IN HER CAPABILITIES AND PEOPLE SHOULD RESPECT THAT. to turn you back on her just because she is flawed like everyone else in the world shows how flawed YOU are. sorry, i have VERY STRONG FEELINGS ABOUT MY BELOVED PAMMY. thank you for coming to my tedtalk.
But not all criticism against Pam can be waved off due to that, I'm sure that there are some people who dislike her character for those reasons but there are other reasons as to why she's not very likeable. 1) Cheated on Roy with Jim, I mean I don't think I need to explain why cheating's wrong. 2) Got angry at Jim when he got upset about not seeing Cece's play. Sure the guy was out in Philly for a job he loved but it wasn't a selfish endeavour as he really wanted to help his family with it, yet even after pressuring pam and asking her if she could work a camera and her laughing it off, she failed to do so. Oh and she picked up a call during a play, like, pick up the call 2 minutes later after you walk out at the very least smh. I'm not saying that being a single mother for a few months isn't very difficult but it's not like Jim was on vacation lol 3)Pam knew that Athlead took off during that scene with Darryl but didn't say anything, I mean the whole reason she was hesitant was cause she was "signing off to be unhappy for an unknown amount of time" but she ignored that for her own reasons, which is backwards to what she says and what the show says. 4) If I was Karen in that fire-walk scene I'd be pissed! Can you imagine what that must've felt like? At the very least Pam should've talked to Jim about that privately lol. 5) Did not communicate with Jim at all, especially when she cried. Roy and pam's relationship had 0 communication and the moment Jim steps out to Philly she starts to hide things again and Jim has to find out from the mic guy that she cried which is quite a big deal. You could argue to an extent that she did it to make Jim feel better about not being there but as a viewer watching this I really felt like she went back to her old Pam-ways of being meek and letting the world pass her by, this was one of the moments she needed to stand up and voice her true opinions but she didn't. The only times I actually did like her were when she found her own voice like after the break-up with Roy or in the final episode where she sells her house.
@@thusharanup4906 1.) Jim kissed her unexpectedly and she immediately called off her wedding with Roy and broke up with him afterward. Then when they got back together she even told Roy about kissing Jim. 4.) Sure, Karen had a right to be pissed but Pam had just done the fire walk right before that scene, she was basically high on adrenaline at that point and not exactly in the perfect state of mind. Your points 2, 3, and 5 just come down to the extremely poor writing of season 9 as the writers wanted to create unneeded drama between Pam and Jim. Alot of those events were out of character for them as you touched on in your fifth criticism. However, let's not pretend that Pam was completely in the wrong because that just isn't the case. Just because Jim was trying to help his family doesn't change the fact that Pam was forced to become a single parent for months while Jim was off in Philly. She should've recorded the play (and would've if it weren't for the contrived events) but the problem for her was that Jim wasn't and hadn't been there while she had to take care of their kids alone all that time. She was supporting his dreams by being a single mother to two young kids but she needed Jim home and got mad at him for not being there even though she chose that path. Jim was trying to chase his dreams and provide a better life for his family but made life harder for his family by doing so. Neither of them was completely wrong nor right.
@@wayothefro3249 You're right, nobody was "right or wrong" but only one person got angry and that was Pam, Jim chose to empathise at that moment and back off but Pam charged forward with little to no care for the work that Jim's been doing. For point 1, Pam herself admits that she kissed Jim back in the bar with Roy, if you look at that scene and think that Pam in no way violated Roy's trust as his fiance multiple times then I think you're nuts lol. And waiving off points because they were "bad writing" and "out of touch" for the character makes no sense, by that logic any character who's done any number of bad actions could be deemed moral as the bad things they did only amounted to "bad writing" or some other force beyond their control, the writing done for Pam is her character and the character borne of that writing is at a lot of the times in the wrong.
@@thusharanup4906 That's just bad logic. As you said yourself in point 5, Pam regressed her character to her old meek self for seemingly no reason. That's bad writing. However, you can't use that argument whenever a character does bad things *if* they are in character. When Dwight wears a gun around the office, that's in character because it was already established that he has no problems with weapons in the office and we know that when he's in a position of power he gets an inflated ego. When Angela preaches about morals to other characters despite her own heinous actions, that's in character because we know she's a stuck-up person who's always done that. When Pam seemingly doesn't communicate for no reason despite having spent seasons building up her ability to speak her mind (and having her do so up until that point), that's bad writing. I never said Pam didn't violate Roy's trust but she was still kissed unexpectedly by Jim. She kissed back but she is also the one who stopped the kiss and didn't let things go on with Roy afterward which is something most cheaters wouldn't do. The fact that she also told Roy about it when they got back together despite not having to do so is also a testament to her character. She was in the wrong for kissing Jim back but also did good things through her handling of everything during and after the kiss.
@@wayothefro3249 I disagree, I judge the character on how it is presently written and not on how I assume the character should act, her regressing to a meek personality can't just be ignored by me. And for your second paragraph, you yourself admitted that Pam was in the wrong for breaking Roy's trust and the fact that she did the decent thing by telling him isn't some "testament to her character", I think it's something that should be expected as the obvious thing to do, if your partner broke off your engagement by kissing someone back would you commend their character? It's expected at the very least. I mean if you compare her to other characters, she's probably one of the more moral and good people but personally, because of how the show treats her and her actions, I dislike a lot about her.
I love Pam, she's the main reason I watched the show. She's lovable, adorable, relatable, and just all round great. How anyone could hate her is a mystery to me.
Pam and Jim are representations of what happens if you drop two pretty normal people onto an island with completely idiotic or crazy people. In other words they are characters that represent the viewer. If you hate Pam or Jim, you hate yourself.
@@Otto-WebbI remember that was mentioned in the show that Pam thinks she's better than the rest by Meredith (I think?) and that Jim had an air of superiority. I never noticed that(? I mean, Andy, Dwight, Michael, Jan, Ryan, Kelly and Angela had huge egos. Also I saw a comment in the video that said Pam had narcissistic traits. But the thing is everyone has them, it needs to be something that significantly affects your life or other's lives to be considered Narcissism. People like Jan or Ryan do fit that because they use people, Pam didn't considerated Roy's feelings and I'm not defending her for that since it also made slightly hate her for not just being direct, but it obviously was a mistake and not a behavioral pattern. She has empathy and worries about the people around her, and she's selfish, but I would say like a standard person(? Sorry for bad grammar I don't speak English very well
Note: In her audition, they asked Jenna to be as boring as possible. Jim is not perfect even though the show shoots near that mark to bring an "aaaw" from the audience. But why should pam be perfect? She lies sometimes, which is not good, but who doesn't? She is insecure, who hasn't ever been? She can't decide between risking and stability, who doesn't? (Especially women) She's one of the most realistic characters. P.s. Especially women, while looking for a relationship, think about the duality between risking and having stability, either emotional or financial.
Its true that her audition she was told to be boring as possible, but I think the writers changed the character by season 2. As they did with Michael. Pam was also written to show the growth of a young adult, not just the gender role. She has relatable growing pains for both genders as well as professional and personal struggles.
i don’t get how people hate pam for being a “liar” considering that every single character in the show lied at some point to someone else. not to mention that jim uprooted their entire life without telling her and even saying how he didn’t take the job when he in fact did. but he doesn’t get any hate for that? they had two children and relatively stable jobs of course she wouldn’t wanna leave especially after her husband lied. AND he bought a house without telling her right after they started dating. michael also consistently lies to his staff and partners the entire show but again no one hates on him for that? pam was the most realistic character on the show. the beach scene was weird i’ll give them that and i can’t help but sympathize with karen for it, but honestly isn’t most of that on jim for playing with karen’s feelings? i mean for god sake he even broke up with Katy in the second season in the worst way ON A BOAT. but pam was in an unhappy engagement where she had no self confidence and was scared to take any risks it’s why she stayed as a receptionist, until she started dating jim. when he confessed she was terrified to lose a friendship with him so she chose the SAFE option. was it the right option? no roy was terrible to her but to her it was the logical choice so she wouldn’t be left with no one so seeing someone she was clearly in love with dating someone has gotta hurt especially since the last time they saw each other was when he confessed his love for her. as someone who was also in a relationship that made me feel like i wasn’t worth much, i relate so much to pam and i don’t get any of the hate she gets meanwhile jim is considered constantly in the right.
yes a completly agree. even after she already broke up with roy you could see how lonely she became. JIm left because he coudnt take it anymore and she was left all alone, which was exactly what she was afraid of the entire time. Roy was terible and for the entire relationship she was inseciour, sad, unsure, shy and unconfident person. I dont get how people hate on pam for not being able to make choices and being scared, and just forget that she was in an abusive realtionship for three years, where every single one of her ideas or dreams would be just called stupid. pam grew a lot as a person and i relate to her a lot.
And we generally understand that all of the other characters are awful people, too. I don't understand why Pam should get a pass just because she's the lead woman. Even Jim is a self-important bully with zero work ethic.
"He bought a house without telling her right after they started dating" - It's right after they started dating, it's not like they were about to be engaged at that time.
This whole realm of the office fanbase leaves me absolutely flabbergasted every time I see it. I can’t comprehend how you can watch this show and hate pam, but not hate everyone else. I mean, if you’re in that boat, that’s totally fine, have your opinion and I respect that, I just can’t understand it personally. Like you sort of hinted at in this video, almost everyone else in the entire cast commits objectively worse actions, in most cases many times over. To me, the one really bad thing pam does is kiss Jim at the dundies when she’s drunk. At casino night, Jim kisses her so how is that reflective of her character? And then everything after that is just her being a normal person… like people who hate her for lying about office administrator or not wanting Jim to move for athlead (or athleap, whichever it is at first haha), those are such normal understandable human things! Are we gonna hate pam for telling a lie but not hate Dwight for having multiple affairs and constantly degrading others? Just doesn’t compute for me. Pam defense squad, assemble!!! (This is all in lighthearted fun btw) 😊
Yeah how dare a confused insecure young woman have a troubled relationship and so have complicated feelings for her best friend. Shes like mid twenties.... MAYBE. How many people did you date in your twenties? It's hard not to have an overlap. The fact she was confused about Jim instead of just stealing him from Karen. She waited until like three months at the firewalk before she had her aWkward meltdown. Heck when I was in high-school I knew girls who would go back to the same guy three times and end up married to a college boyfriend.
Elizabeth Lee Karen also knew that Jim had feelings for Pam and yet she made the choice to stay with him. Karen took a risk of getting hurt and it caused her to get burned.
I do hate all of them The more and more you watch it, the more you notice how shitty they all are in their own ways. Having said that, i still love the show and every character just as much as i hate them because theyre all pretty great characters in the end. Thats what good characters do, make you really love and/or hate them.
Oh man, I kinda love the beach games outburst. It seems to perfectly fit her annoyances and she finally gets the confidence to tell everyone what is bothering her after walking over the coals. Not that cringy at all, mostly sappy sure.
When Pam had to redo her classes in art school she would have had to be away from Jim for a few weeks or months, but she gave that up to work a thankless job just to be with him. When Jim gets the athlead job in another city he is unwilling to give that up and lies about it. They also have CHILDREN! Pam is not only upset about their relationship but how this will affect their children who Pam takes care of in a house Jim bought without asking her. Also about Roy, she wasn’t holding him back, he just felt that Pam wasn’t worth changing for. I have friends who have been with men like this, who thinks everything is fine and it’s the woman who is making up problems where there aren’t any, when in reality they gaslight, they don’t take responsibility and they don’t take the other persons feelings into consideration. They are adult children who never had any reason to have to grow up.
People taking accountability for their own actions & also people being considerate of others is EXTREMELY rare & doesn’t really exist much anymore. You summarized that beautifully though.
Pam’s hate-ability stems from the fact that she’s the least animated, and the easiest to relate to on a personal level. People who hate Pam are insecure because they have similar parts of their personality that they’re ashamed of.
Id say it's quite the opposite, I can't stand when people have the obvious right choice and bad choice, and then go for the bad choice. I'm not thinking of anything specific here, but that's what Pam is to me, someone who's too meh and dumb to make the right choices, and instead of realizing it's her own fault, she feels like there's nothing she could've done. It's not that she's the least animated, she's just the least fun, most boring and mediocre human in the whole show. I love Ryan way more, he might be a scumbag, but he isn't boring, and he owns his mistakes and suffers for them. Pam gets bailed out every time she makes bad choices just because she acts like a victim, those are the worst kind of people, even though, on paper, they might be nice.
actually, you're defending her/yourself. People justify her behavior because she sucks like you. You criticizing her would you ALMOST being able to acknowledge your own short-comings and actually WORK to overcome them yourself. But you creatures have no hope. So, you defend bullshit and criticize criticism so that you don't have to do shit about yourself. Even Christianity is just like this. God committed suicide for me so can I do whatever the f I want with my life and it's cool. It is a teenage MO at best. I don't care what you say; we don't hire people like you to do anything more than file papers or answer phones.
I am finally watching The Office for the first time, currently just started season 8. I love Pam! She's in my top 3 favourite characters I had no idea there was any hate for her at all
After listening to Office Ladies podcast, I liked hearing Jenna Fischer's take on the "Pam hate." She feels it is rooted in misogyny; people preferred the shy, weak Pam because she was easy to walk all over. But as her character develops she gains a backbone and is no longer a doormat, and people can tend to hate that especially in women. I know from experience in my own life, people (family in particular) do NOT take it well when you go from a pushover to someone with healthy boundaries, and I think the Pam hate is the haters projecting that.
I couldn't figure out exactly why I didn't like Pam once she "got her voice", but I doubt it was misogyny. I like Karen's character. She was fairly assertive and spoken out. I liked Leslie from Parks and Recs. She was a go-getter and ambitious and not afraid to use her voice. Same thing with Elenore from The Good Place all throughout that show. I don't dislike strong female characters and their voices...I just disliked Pam.
@@crimson8076 it’s possible to dislike a character that has some admirable qualities. I like other female characters with the same admirable qualities. Disliking one woman does not mean that I dislike all women. Pam “finding her voice” wasn’t the only change that happened to that character over the course of the show. I just didn’t like the other changes or perhaps how she used that voice.
That's the easiest most convenient lazy excuse as to why someone could dislike someone. It's giving yourself an out and putting more blame on others rather than simply admit their are things about that character people will hate that range far beyond their sex. Basically the people the hated Packer must have just been misandry and that's it, it just shows more about them than understanding him etc etc.
Also, for Roy part, pay attention that he got his life on order only when Pam chicken out from their wedding.. And he did everything to get her back.. As soon as they started dating from Phyllis's wedding onwards, he got lazy ass and ignored her completely,AGAIN. She spotted that and as soon as she told him the truth about the kiss with Jim, he flipped.. She saw his true face. I like that episode beacuse it truly presents how many, many wrong relation ships develops in life.. And how people make choices for the wrong reasons (like Roy wanting Pam back just for pure fact to win her back,not to be with her).
Of the main characters, Pam is probably the least morally problematic, her main sins being flirting while engaged, making interest in an attached guy clear, and lying to get a job. She is also often shown trying to be nice to people in a way most of the other characters never are. The only other generally morally good characters are Jim (endless pranking and flirting with an engaged woman), Oscar (affair with married man), and Stanley (multiple affairs and a general disdain for his wives). Oh, and Toby, but honestly he is sidelined so much I don't really count him as top tier, plus no matter how moral he is, he negates it by being a total doormat. As for her holding Jim back, well, her reasons are very understandable. When Pam goes to art school, she specifically states now is a good time to do this, before she's married or has kids or even a mortgage. Art school is also only supposed to be 6 weeks, then she comes back to Scranton and Jim, presumably to find work locally. It is in no way a disruption to Jim and Pam's general life trajectory. If Jim had gotten his business opportunity in Season 4, prior to them having serious roots there (no house, no kids, Pam still a receptionist) she probably would have gone with him with no fuss. (Of course then there would be no show, so...) But Jim wants to move his wife and 2 children to a much larger city where they do not have any family or friend support (any parent will tell you that is a BIG thing with 2 young kids), and where it's almost certain Pam will have to take a MUCH less good job at least at first, since she kind of lucked into the one she has, not to mention selling their house and finding a place to live in a much more expensive location. That is a MUCH bigger ask on Jim's part, and I'm not surprised she balks and has problems with the idea, and it's a huge testament to how much she loves him that she eventually agrees. Its such a paradox on a show like this that over the top characters who do over the top horrible things are beloved, but regular people characters who act like regular people get so much hate. Or really, just the regular woman.
Not to mention the Doyleist (metafiction reason) that the season 8/9 twist was a rehash of plots that were done already and much more impactful. In Season 4 after almost 3 seasons Jim is given a choice between Pam and job. And with all the drama building up to that season. The relationship with Karen, the fight with Roy. It had a lot of build up, it was good tension and it ended in a heartfelt romantic way. Likewise the artschool plot had been hinted out in season one. Drawn out over all those season it took a whole two seasons to unfold, and in the end it had a twist ending too. And because most of this stuff came to ahead in season4 and 5 it was woven into the continuity and played off each other. Out of no where... a guy plops down a macguffin about a vague sport marketing business (Something that Jim never talked about with a bunch of guys from school we have never even seen on the show. Likewise a boom mike operator we never saw. And its just plopped down like a fart. Dramatic conflict in a comedy is fine as comedies are usually defined by how they wrap up in the end. But that drama still has to act like drama. It has to be established paid off earned. If you want a twist in the last part of the story... its a bad idea. Because there is no pay off even if you write the best dramatic dialogue, or have a bunch of clever writing. So having a bunch of things thrown on screen we are supposed to have known about... its very weak writing. And since the business is so vague and not important... why should we relate to Jim. We knew how much Art meant to Pam because of her struggles to create art and learn her education. it was a good twist. We know how much Jim adored Pam so it made sense but it was still a good twist. Maybe if we saw what Jim was doing other then sitting in a cool office with Darryl. Maybe have him do what he was doing at work. His business just didn't seem believable or interesting. And the Boom mike guy was literally hidden until then. I mean it could have been a good twist... but he only was in two episode...and in the second one the guy hits on Pam. And instead of the inevitable revelation of the characters true fellings... we get a flashback. as crass as any flashback episode of the Fresh prince. No one learned or revealed anything... it was excuse for flashbacks.
The lying to get a job is such a hustle though I really respect her for that.. imagine being sick of doing what you do everyday, not wanting to be a menial receptionist again, and seeing an opportunity and just grab it. That took guts and I really respect her for that.. I saw some people were angry that she turned down that other job in Philly, but can these people mot see she didn't wajt to be a receptionist again? Especially to someone as eccentric as Micheal?!
@@juileegokhale3531 exaaaaaaactly. She HATED her job as a receptionist. Always has. And definitely didn't love dealing with Michael. So to do basically exactly that again?? While Jim gets to do his dream job? Why should she have to be miserable to make it easier for him? And yeah I thought it was awesome she got her job like that. She saw an opportunity and went for it and was lucky enough to get it. Ryan just made himself a position too and used Kelly to get it. At least Pam was filling a role, not just making herself someone's boss.
You're fucked in the head if you think that. She's a homebreaker and a cheater, if you don't think that's morally problematic then I'm not sure what is. She literally commited fraud, is a delusional hack and always tries to claim moral highground in whatever argument she has. She's hated because she has the most universaly despised traits, most of you people find her appealing because you fucks can relate to the trashcan of a character that is Pam Beesly. The problem isn't even with her being morally corrupt or not, it's the fact that she holds everyone except herself to a higher standard, and she tries to present herself as someone that should be universally liked. It's not only fucking annoying, it's a straight up reason to hate someone. Every person in The Office more or less has a realization about their flaw, some form of it at least, but not Pam. She's one of the characters that fails straight on her face because no one in her demeanor is redeemable and the only reason why so many Office fans eat her shit up is because she romanced the golden boy of the Office, Jim, who's your dime a dozen "too cool to care" pranksters. Give me a fucking break you people will eat every cookie cutter shit people will throw at you.
I read the argument once that in her beach games outburst she said "I called of my wedding for you" and not "because of you" and that it is the same. It is not. "Because of you" means because he made her realize the flaws in her relationship to Roy. "For you" would mean that she expected things from Jim but she didn't. So overall I think people who hate Pam just miss minor details that show that she is not the worst.
Yeah. What she is saying is "Because of you, I realized that I wasn't happy with Roy." What "For you" implies is "I called off my wedding because I wanted to be with you instead. Which isn't what she says. She even says that she's sad that they aren't even friends anymore. Implying that she just wants friendship with him, even if they never did end up together. Huge difference.
This just feels extremely unfair. Pam is PERFECTLY written in my opinion. One arc where the fumbled a bit and that's it. All the hate is really doing is holding up a mirror to the people who want her to be the pillar for her man. They obviously thought her character through, a hell of a lot more than Angela, but the difference is, one gives in to the classic damsel formula, while the other is complex and so much more human than TV show puzzle piece. She's not written to fit in with the story, but rather to challenge it's traditional ways. All the Pam haters need some therapy. And tell your mom you love her ffs
@@snoozyq9576 People who can actually read and understand english usually get the impression from the FIRST sentence that I am stating an opinion and not inferring a fact. The second sentence clarifies that pretty well so your illiterate assumption here is just ironic gold.
reminds me of the hate for skylar white from breaking bad. no one is perfect and they do a good job of portraying that in these shows (tho breaking bad is infinitely darker lol)
All of the major mistakes Pam made, Jim was at least equally culpable. It was more his job than Pam's to protect his relationship with Karen, and instead he allowed Pam to get away with saying inappropriate things on the beach. He also chose to stay "friends" with her knowing that there was something there. Jim was an awful partner to Karen because it was his job to put Pam in her place and he didn't do it. And I'd like to see how Pam haters react to their own spouses waiting until after they've had two babies and bought a house to suddenly decide to uproot their life for a new career venture. Jim had years to do something new without it affecting Pam, and he waited until he set roots with Pam to do it. His fault. Pam was rational to 'hold him back', she didnt sign up for that. I'm not saying you're a misogynist if you hate Pam, but I am saying that you should reconsider some things if you don't *also* hate Jim.
this is an interesting take. I'm not jumping on the hate pam bandwagon, but this swings too far in the other direction. Jim is not great either, but why is 'staying friends' with someone the most horrible thing someone can do? I'm not saying people string people along willingly, or that its a one way track; both parties are responsible, but i would argue Jim's right decision (the decision to set firm boundaries) which he genuinely tried to do, is harder than Pam just not trying to cross the line. And what do you mean about having two kids and a career change? A marriage is about team work, Jim let Pam go when she wanted to make a huge career choice like that. Not to mention he supported her decision to pursue it. If I decided one day that I've had enough, my partner would see my desire to do it, and be the guiding voice. If my partner could not see my passion about a career switch. So what if he had years to switch? Would you switch careers without a savings, house, stable income? How unfair is it to ask someone in their mid 20s, early 30s to make a jump like that? Many people do it, why is it such a reprehensible choice? Of course its unfair to ask the other spouse to support a career switch, but this is a career led by desire. If you cant see that as a spouse, shame on you for putting your needs in front of their inner desires. Stablility and risk taking should be made with empathetical reasoning. Rational to hold him back? What? I am a musician, and if I am stuck at a dead end job, but didnt have the means to rise above it, or havent realized my potential, or the cards werent right, why would I make my choice anytime else? Listen, I am empathetic for people's Pam/Jenna hate, and you are right to think that is driven by misogyny. You are also right to think Jim is not so sparkling as a character himself, made evident by several character flaws. But your criticisms are downright apathetic and blame burdening. There are more apt criticisms of Jim, in the office. These aren't a powerful argument. Putting my aside my personal qualms about your points.
@@kavyeshkaviraj well i believe she didn’t fail art school because we never seen her fail she just said it. she has very good artistic skills. she just didn’t want to tell him cause he told her to come the right way. when she was with roy her only escape was art school and now that she’s with Jim she realized that she didn’t need the escape and she wanted to be with him and when he took that job from Philly she was upset the didn’t want to stay with here as much as she did to him she is only human with human emotions and the moment on the beach she was venting it’s okay if he set boundaries but she’s entitled to her own emotions so i don’t think u have 100% valid points
Exactly. Not only did he uproot their lives with two kids (leaving her to raise them alone while he worked in a different state), he also drained their savings to invest in the company without asking her. Yikes
@@autumnaltumn Draining money from their savings account without asking her is something I definitely Jim was wrong in doing, however the uprooting of their lives I feel would have been bad even if he had not done it. I am speculating now but I feel like he stayed at some point start to resent her because he did not take the take the opportunity to try something he has always wanted to do. I am not saying he was right in doing so but I feel like anyway they were bound to go through a rough patch.
I agree that the whole “i like pam when she keeps quiet and doesn’t stand up for herself, but when she’s not like that anymore i hate her!!” thing totally reeks of misogyny. i also wanna point out though that the criticism of the season 9 arc seems misogynistic to me as well. i’ll explain briefly: the main criticism is that she’s keeping jim from the life that he wants. but why are his dreams more important than hers? she makes it very clear that she is happy with her life. her friends and family are close and she likes her job. she is comfortable and enjoying life. again, why are jim’s desires MORE important? not to mention the fact that he, against her will, forces her into a position where she is essentially the full time parent and constantly exhausted and unhappy. despite this, she puts on a happy face for jim. imagine if instead, pam was the one who wanted to pull jim away from scranton. i guarantee if that was the situation, these fans would hate her for that too. as you mentioned, pretty much every character in the show is awful in some way. so many characters have affairs, sexually harass people, are racist/sexist, etc. but somehow pam is the most hated person in the show. interesting... :|
NO. you're 100% off base. Jim fully supported her dreams to got to art school, away in New York. When Jim wants to try something, she doesn't support him.
@@Phoenix-pm2qr art school & the philly job were EXTREMELY different situations and if you watched the show you should understand. I am NOT “off base.”
@@Phoenix-pm2qr Pam went to art school because she was together with Jim, who totally supported her decisions, when before she couldn't because Roy always belittled her work and never believed in her. She was not happy in her relationship with Roy so she wanted to pursue her talent believing that it will make her happy. When she finally did got a chance to go to art school, she realized that it wasn't for her and then she came back because she finally was with someone that made her happy and came back.
honestly i used to hate her character, but now that im rewatching i honestly think she's really a great character. She supported Jim with his dream even though he jumped into it without her, (after agreeing that he wouldn't/didn't want to) and she ended up moving her family to Houston for his dream. Meanwhile Jim was being pretty selfish and unsupportive of her and his family. He said he was doing his dream job for them but it was honestly for him, no i can't blame him... who doesn't want to have a dream job? But i just feel he was a bit of a jerk to her when she was his biggest support. She balanced raising kids, her job, and her artistic ambitions without much support from him while he was in Philly. Yes, she has flaws but for the most part she's a strong woman that knows what she wants and worked very hard for it, even if it means in the end sacrificing her comfort and her dreams for Jim's. Also in points you were making where she is being strong and assertive, you called her emotional and crazy.
If anything that sacrifice is what made pam grow. She was NEVER willing to sacrifice comformity before. It's having a family what finally made her grow. Jim however always procrastinated his ambition to work on something he was more qualified for. He made His sacrifice first when he decided to stay with her for so long. If Jim was that selfish, he would have taken the corporative position. His ideal life was always reaching that ambition, but having Pam with him to do so would make it worth. Otherwise it would be an life goal fulfiled with no heart.
@@denisehead6680She had her mother that helped her, they had a baby sitter and she had also Jim's help. Maybe she should have asked his help more often.
@@denisehead6680 Right. Like Jim could have partially lived in Philly when starting the company and stayed focused on his job if Pam wasn't there for the kids. They both worked hard for their family.
I finished watching the show a few days ago and just found out that some people hate Pam.... WHAT? How? She's like the best person in the entire show and she has great development too
1) Cheated on Roy with Jim, I mean I don't think I need to explain why cheating's wrong. 2) Got angry at Jim when he got upset about not seeing Cece's play. Sure the guy was out in Philly for a job he loved but it wasn't a selfish endeavour as he really wanted to help his family with it, yet even after pressuring pam and asking her if she could work a camera and her laughing it off, she failed to do so. Oh and she picked up a call during a play, like, pick up the call 2 minutes later after you walk out at the very least smh. I'm not saying that being a single mother for a few months isn't very difficult but it's not like Jim was on vacation lol 3)Pam knew that Athlead took off during that scene with Darryl but didn't say anything, I mean the whole reason she was hesitant was cause she was "signing off to be unhappy for an unknown amount of time" but she ignored that for her own reasons, which is backwards to what she says and what the show says. 4) If I was Karen in that fire-walk scene I'd be pissed! Can you imagine what that must've felt like? At the very least Pam should've talked to Jim about that privately lol. 5) Did not communicate with Jim at all, especially when she cried. Roy and pam's relationship had 0 communication and the moment Jim steps out to Philly she starts to hide things again and Jim has to find out from the mic guy that she cried which is quite a big deal. You could argue to an extent that she did it to make Jim feel better about not being there but as a viewer watching this I really felt like she went back to her old Pam-ways of being meek and letting the world pass her by, this was one of the moments she needed to stand up and voice her true opinions but she didn't. The only times I actually did like her were when she found her own voice like after the break-up with Roy or in the final episode where she sells her house. Sure she's human and compared to the other characters she is moral but these things can't just be fully ignored lol
I didn't hate Pam. She had flaws like other characters. I personally did enjoy her less as the show went on. Never hated, though. The thing Jenna said about it being a misogyny thing is such a disingenuous copout, however. That in itself is so stupid that I now like her less.
Yes! I love how, when she's still enthusiastic about the idea of Michael seeing someone, she asks "Who?" a couple of times in a perky tone -- then, after the penny has dropped, she asks it again, only in a shocked, wounded way, dreading the answer and yet needing to know.
I really relate to Pam, I spent 10 years being unhappy with someone a lot like Roy and finally decided to leave and pursue a happier life. I finally found my Jim. A couple bones I need to pick with people who hate on Pam: Jim decided to start at a new startup company and invest without being fully honest with her. It was in another city and they had two young children. If I were her, I wouldn’t have been totally on board with it at first either. Now when it comes to Karen, she was absolutely a rebound. And that is shown by Jim being very wishy-washy throughout their relationship. (Yes I listen to the office ladies podcast lol) I think Jim had no business entering another relationship because he clearly wasn’t ready for it. He still loved Pam and that relationship with Karen would never worked with a start like that. I might be biased, but I love Jam!
I didn't know people hated her until I finished the show. Like you said near the end, everyone in this show is a horroble human, very annoying or very incompetent. Singling out one character for it and not having that character be Michael who did the worst things out of all of them and possibly ruined the future of like 20 children in one shot is very unfair
The arc of Jim pursuing his business always made me sympathise with Pam because OFF CAMERA she is taking care of two toddlers while juggling a full-time job
"Makes the people around her better" - Right. That's why she forcefully broke Jim and Karen's relationship. Or wait, that's why she wanted to have a new chair, instead of getting a new copier that would benefit EVERYONE in the office, not just her. She is a narcissistic self-centered liar. Not to mention she is very jealous of Jim and that's mostly because of her own insecurities, because it is very well established that Jim would only love her.
@@sadiqabbaszade4789 1) She didn’t break up Jim and Karen. She had her outburst on the beach expressing how she missed their friendship, and then she was content with Jim doing whatever he wanted after that. It was Jim who broke up with Karen for her. 2) Um, the chairs would have been for everyone. Not just her. Everyone would have been benefitted, so I don’t quite understand your argument. Also, plenty of other people wanted new chairs as well. It makes no sense just to single her out. 3) In an office with an inept and offensive boss and rude and uncaring coworkers, idk how you can single her out as a narcissist. So many other characters have traits far worse than her minor insecurities.
I think the reason why she’s hated is she’s probably the most relatable. People see what they hate or themselves in Pam. It’s painful to watch her. They see Jim and that’s how they like to see themselves. When they see Pam they see someone unhappy about their decisions who does nothing to remedy her situation. Who puts things off, never takes any chances because she’s comfortable to a certain degree. But I also think she might be the one character that has the most meaningful growth, the one that had to work on themselves the most
That makes sense. But wouldnt that make people like characters more? I might not make sense but most of the time people like relatble characters right? So i really wonder why they hate pam.
I don't know, to me it was Andy the one who had to work on himself the most. he even started as one of the most justifiably hated characters to one of the most beloved. and part of that came because the character accepted his pasts mistakes and tried to grow out of them. Even helping Michael not becoming a lover to cheater because he was cheated once. Pam hate doesn't seem to come because of her actions, but because of her "too good to be real " personality. And is part of her flaws. since she isn't a saint., but does her best to pretend she's miss nice girl, and often pisses off her coworkers when she tries too hard
Nope, I’m a flawed person but I’m not nearly as whiny, annoyingly insecure or accountability lacking as she is. Y’all should just accept that not everyone loves the dream girl of the office
1) Cheated on Roy with Jim, I mean I don't think I need to explain why cheating's wrong. 2) Got angry at Jim when he got upset about not seeing Cece's play. Sure the guy was out in Philly for a job he loved but it wasn't a selfish endeavour as he really wanted to help his family with it, yet even after pressuring pam and asking her if she could work a camera and her laughing it off, she failed to do so. Oh and she picked up a call during a play, like, pick up the call 2 minutes later after you walk out at the very least smh. I'm not saying that being a single mother for a few months isn't very difficult but it's not like Jim was on vacation lol 3)Pam knew that Athlead took off during that scene with Darryl but didn't say anything, I mean the whole reason she was hesitant was cause she was "signing off to be unhappy for an unknown amount of time" but she ignored that for her own reasons, which is backwards to what she says and what the show says . 4) If I was Karen in that fire-walk scene I'd be pissed! Can you imagine what that must've felt like? At the very least Pam should've talked to Jim about that privately lol. 5) Did not communicate with Jim at all, especially when she cried. Roy and pam's relationship had 0 communication and the moment Jim steps out to Philly she starts to hide things again and Jim has to find out from the mic guy that she cried which is quite a big deal. You could argue to an extent that she did it to make Jim feel better about not being there but as a viewer watching this I really felt like she went back to her old Pam-ways of being meek and letting the world pass her by, this was one of the moments she needed to stand up and voice her true opinions but she didn't. The only times I actually did like her were when she found her own voice like after the break-up with Roy or in the final episode where she sells her house. The only times that Pam's likeable is when she decides to stand up for herself, breaking up with Roy, selling the house, taking the dive to go to art school; all those are great things for her. But she doesn't progress beyond that until the very last episode and I just find that disappointing, especially in the fifth point I said, old pam would've said nothing and went about her day but I really expected new and stronger pam to do something about that.
Yeah...hating cheaters isn't misogyny, being a cheater apologist is being accepting of emotional abuse though. She's not a great person and anyone who broad brushes people with valid criticisms of her character probably has a lacking character themselves. Pretty toxic.
pam has emotional responses to things that are important to her. we all have jokes that we think are hilarious that don't land great. people need to look at both sides of the story. i see where they come from with the points, and some are correct. but a lot of the points on why pam 'sucks' have flaws. the kiss at the dundies was more than likely an accident, as she kissed michael on the cheek before she went to hug jim. but the fact that jim was in love with her made him overthink everything, and some of the audience think it meant more than a drunken kiss out of sympathy. casino night; that was all jim. she stood there and said "i can't" as he confessed his love to her. obviously when jim comes back, pam's excited and is going to hug him. they were best friends, for at least several years before the doc came in, and you see that the episode they talk on the phone. they have a friendly, joking convo after months of no talking. and to add to pam's side, she didn't know jim and karen were dating when he walked in there for the first time since casino night. beach games was a totally honest thing. it was a little embarrassing, but you can't keep everything inside, especially something like that. and to be fair, her main point was that she missed their friendship. the line about how she broke off her wedding because of jim was a little strange, but it definitely brought the entire thing into perspective about how she missed that friendship. jim asked pam out. it was spur of the moment, and totally not pam's fault at all. she didn't know what had happened in new york, with the job nor with karen. with athleap/athlead; they had two young kids, so she had a massive right to say no. after a second discussion, she was ok with jim going to philly BECAUSE she thought he was still keeping something from her. and obviously, when you're at home with no partner and have two young kids, it's tough as hell. pam has a right to get mad that jim's not there, because they did originally agree that he wouldn't do it, or when she did agree, that he'd do it from scranton. brian's a complex plot point. if you know someone who is filming your entire life, the intimate moments and the terrible ones, you're gonna become close friends, if not like family. if you see someone you know crying, you're obviously going to help comfort them; it's human natural. lunch with jim, brian and supposedly alissa probably wasn't the smartest move on pam's part, but you can see that jim and pam were comfortable with brian, and they were friends off camera. it's a classic crush story too; it literally has the same plotline that jim and pam have at the start of the series. brian's in love with one of his friends that he works with that is married but is having relationship problems. jim would comfort pam every single gd day at work about roy and how much she was trapped in that relationship. it's the same thing, just pam doesn't like him. but anyway, i think i covered every point you make in this. if you read this monstrosity, thank you.
Because she acts quite often hypocritical and judgemental. She looks down on others with Jim when she also has flaws herself. She tries to gossip about Dwight and Angela in the early on as a "secret office romance", when Phyllis confronts her, she shuts the topic off. Looks down own "dorky people", but feels offended when she herself is a dork for people like Danny. The stuff she does when Jim is with Karen is quite unethical and manipulative. We see a similar situation with Erin and Andy when Andy is with Jessica, but at least Erin is honest and actually tries to move on by going to Florida. The dishonesty of Pam is quite annoying but that is something she has in common with Jim. The way Jim and Pam act is like teenagers with all those obvious lies. They are okay with Stanley cheating on her wife, but the moment when they think Michael may be cheated on suddenly they are intrusive and the "private life boundaries" are forgotten. She appears to one of the good ones, but she is not a geniunely good person like Holly or Karen. She only has empathy towards people she is close to. I think overall you feel that Pam is not really a good person, but more like a mean girl with confidence issues. She is quite and shy, you kind of expect her to be kind, so as an audience it is surprising that she is much more cynical and egoistical than she appears to be.
At times I hate all the characters yet I love them as well. That’s the beauty of the Office. With that my least favorite regular character has always been Andy Bernard, he was brought in to hate in season 3, he moves in on Angela in seasons 4 and 5, has a toxic relationship with Erin, and cumulates the show with his 3 month cruise and vindictive nature toward David Wallace and the other employees.
I liked Andy for a brief period when he and Erin first got together, after that it was all downhill, also I agree I hate basically everyone at some point in the show
I think the writers did a good job of making andy a likable character after his initial run and when he first becomes regional manager. But they just completely sabotaged his character in the last season
@@vinnye930 yeah Erin and Andy ruined his character. It should have either been more awkward or less. Like it wasn't a big deal Andy was a big loser and in his forties and incompetent in romance and Erin was naive and 20. The only episode that was believable or interesting was that episode where Erin has a panic attack when she finds out her 40 year old boyfriend might have had a relationship. That was so stupid and naive and ovrr the top it was funny again. Mostly it played out like Sean Connery dating Catharine Zeta Jone dating in that movie, gross and out of touch. To pretend that the age gap wasn't the primary obstacle in that relationship. For a good version of this... look at Bojack Horseman. Not normally funnier then the office. Mr Peanutbutter and Pickles had a believable May December Romance and I was upset they didn't get together. And they actively cheated on each other...without consent and Weirdly later with consent. Because it addressed the actual concerns. Like couldn't they actually write it like it would have been based on their characters.
@@shady_the_one Look I try not to judge. There are not only good age gap relationships, but great depictions of them. April and Andy from Parks and Rec. It has to be a good relationship. If not its just disgusting. I tend to agree with you and it really lost my respect for Andy Bernard. Whyh was he being not only a loser now, but a creep. But in successful age gap relationships both parties need to be mature. Especially the younger of the pair. And both were not. Its only more obvious and gross with Erin because she's so much younger and even more naive. Its not likely if you are not mature yourself you will be in any successful relationship and that ruined Andy for me that he thinks it would be a good idea. Or that he wouldn't be trying to find someone who admires him for himself and not because he's a mediocre adult instead of a teenager. I didn't like Andy after he went after Erin. Like I would have respected him more for being attracted to him then dumping her. At least that would be believable and cringey.
I just fricking love Pam. She started being a voiceless person with a shy personality, but with time she grows so much. She's the only woman Dwight calls a friend, because she has ever been by his side. Roy just get a better life because of the horrible time they had together. She was always by Michael side too, even when nobody believe in him, like when he opens the MSPC. She became an important and necessary character for the others. And, come on guys, that part Jim - pam - Karen, AS IF SHE WAS FORCIN HIM TO DO ANYTHING. You only do what you want, so it's a problem for Jim too.
Besides Erin, I always though Pam had the best morality in the show, but not in a way that made her unrealistic, she had a very realistic good quality to her while still having her flaws
The "problem" with Pam begins with the fact that she is the only female lead in the main cast (in other words, she is one of the four main characters of the office). Although not a problem in and of itself, I believe it became a problem in later seasons as they basically put many different "types" of women into the Pam Beesly character. One thing I really didn't like about her in later seasons, which I've come to understand better as I get older, is when she doesn't support Jim with his business idea. When I got older, though, I found out that MOST women don't 100% support their husband/boyfriend's business ventures. Why? Because there is risk. And women hate risk. Moreso when it is monetary or a deep time sink. Basically, Pam resembled mostly positive female traits in the beginning of the show and then displayed quite a few negative female (or human) traits in the later half of the show. I always despised her "growth" to office administrator. I love her character, HATE the execution of that idea. Pam is literally lying her way towards the top while creating a position for herself to leech off the company (as her work as "admin" is not necessary in the slightest). Absolutely putrid. Still love the character. Just don't like the second half of The Office. Incidentally, fellas, I think you will find that quite a few men are "held back" by their girlfriend/wife. Don't let that be you. It wasn't till I got older that I heard all of the stories (and saw them happening in real time) of women holding back the men around me. One of the weirdest things I experienced over time.
The people who say they hate pam basically are saying they hate the whole premise of the show she's literally an integral part of the show she's the "normal" one her reactions to the actions of weird people around her is exactly what's funny about the show it's a mockumentary if pam doesn't exist in the show the whole concept of mocking will be ruined
I imagine the root of people's hatred for her is that they view everyone other than Jim and Pam as not real people, just characters with one specific quirk. Pam and Jim are the only real people, so any little flaw gets maximized in their eyes.
Exactly! Obviously people like Andy and Dwight are more annoying and even psychopathic. But nobody sees them as real people. Pam and Jim do come across like real people, but they are still pretty terrible.
Exactly. It's pointless to compare Pam to obviously unlikeable characters who are clearly written to be disliked. Angela is overtly mean and judgemental, Packer is a crude, grotesque bully, Jan is a highly erratic narcissist, Oscar is a smartypants know-it-all who thinks himself above the commonfolk etc. Pam/Jim are presented as good/sane/normal people and the moral anchor of the show, so any immoral behaviour is seen in that context. Creed getting that woman fired to save himself and then stealing the money from her card is just a gag because Creed is an insane hobo wearing a business suit, but if Pam or Jim did the same thing, in moral terms it would be seen in the same way as somebody doing it in the real world.
@@NotQuiteFirst In the original Tim and Dawn were supposed to represent the viewer, as regular ordinary people stuck workng in an office with terrible co-workers. The US version expanded on this. Jim and Pam are supposed to be relatable and everyone else represents a different kind of annoying co-worker. Only Jim and Pam ever offer moral judgments (the rest are just busy being self-centredly awful) which is probably why they get the most moral criticism from the viewers.
Pam is the most human and relatable character on the show. She grew from a people pleaser who didn't know how to properly advocate for what she needed to someone who was kind of bad at doing that once she tried. To someone who was late in the game as a person who knew how to express herself.
“The series presents us with a snapshot of humanity. It’s messed up, broken, bored, flamboyant, in anguish, in love, working, relaxing to comment on everyday life” is the best way i would’ve described The Office and why I think in its own way, is what makes it genius.
Creed: *is unashamed of his plethora of crimes and disregard for social standards Fans: "lmao love him such a fun goofy guy" Pam: *has very relatable and human flaws, sometimes resulting in a struggle between her own needs and her desire to do right by others in which she makes a choice she later regrets Fans: "FKN BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII-"
Bc he doesn’t try to hide that he’s a bad person. She’s given so much screen time and is so boring that the most interesting thing about her is the relationship drama she’s in
Because Pam is a phoney and hides behind her sweet girl act. Also if you have common sense you’ll know that creed and Dwight were unrealistic characters while Pam was portrayed as one.
Yes exactly!😂 I mean c’mon, Angela hid from Dwight that her kid was his for like 2 years, she cheated profusely, deliberately tried to get people fired, and even Oscar deported! But let’s focus hate on Pam!🤷🏻♀️😂 I agree with most, it’s because she’s very real compared to other characters. And I think hating Pam is telling of how some people view women and their actions in real life, precisely because she was so real. I mean, Kelly faked a pregnancy to get a date ffs!😂
She's great and cause she feels like a real person. I've worked with girls that have a lot of similarities with Pam. Characteristics that are very cool. Subtle, dry humor. Little in-jokes. Confusion on how to handle office politics when people start becoming toxic... She's a romantic and holds out for love. That is also what I think Jon kracinski saw in her that made him fight for what her character stood for and likely what he wrote to her at the end when they shared a private note that made her cry. Here's to Pam and the lovely ladies like her that brighten the offices without fanfare or wild theatrics, just good, hard-working people finding a way to get along.
I think it’s because every other character’s flaws are treated as funny jokes in the writing but Pam’s character flaws are usually written as regular story.
That makes so much sense! It's like when dwight says racist stuff or admits that his Family were nazis, it's supposed to be funny. When Pam cries after a fight with Jim she's being "manipulative" and deserves to be cheated on.
This absolutely. From my perspective, Pam's flaws are way more real. They're shown in an ugly light and she's not exactly a funny character so it rubs me completely the wrong way. Used to really like her character but I'm on my 20 something-th watch through of the show and I cannot stand her now.
Edit: Pam and Jim are supposed to be the "normal" ones, but that makes them come across as EXTREMELY condescending. That bothers me. Also, Pam behaves badly and is almost never punished or even called out for it. She does a lot of pretty ugly things and is simply not likeable to me. And of course, Jim is head over heels in love with her and decides to always go the extra mile while she is showered with praise from him despite her messed up behavior and blandness. That's just it to me. It's hard to believe someone IS THAT in love with her because she is so boring and not really even all that good of a person.
Exactly what I was thinking throughout the video. I don't hate her but her and Jim are generally given the more leeway for their bullshit
because she’s normal
@Laura oh u mean when they fought and she went crying to another man.. oh right she's so in the right
If there’s a character that should be getting hate it’s Phyllis. She can be very manipulative and rude and it’s hidden by her matronly depiction in the show.
This is so true!
there is enough hate for all of them
true, she could be such a bitch sometimes
Agreed! When you pay attention she is really not a good person at all, it's kind of odd almost how easy it is to miss
exactly!!! I hate that no one talks about this. phyllis is straight up rude and terrible very often.
Pam is probably the most human of all the characters. She gets things wrong, she feels stuck, she feels undeserving of happiness so pushes Jim away. She finds her voice and confidence but sometimes uses it badly as it's new to her. And Karen was a typical rebound. That's on Jim.
Lord knows, I’ve done that before
i agree
People don't like women gaining confidence. Jenna Fischer actually spoke about how she'd be approached and told that her character was so unlikeable after leaving Roy because she was more demanding with what she wanted. It's really quite silly.
@@blazingapparition2687 Really sad, hey.
Idiots don’t, not people. Most people including me love Pam. And most of the people who hate her take a surface level approach to the show, or just don’t pay attention.
I always felt like Jim and Pam were the gateway for the viewers into the ridiculous world of The Office. The other characters are caricatures, while Jim and Pam are 'real' people. Therefore, the viewers offer up less forgiveness for outrageous behavior for those two. The other characters can do and say crazy things but we can forgive them for it. In that light, when Pam is being a bit outrageous, the viewers take offense to it. They don't like that person because they see her as a person, not just a character.
And the show was 100% aware of that too! Which is why we have moments like the daycare interview sequence, which seemed very specifically written to show people from the "outside" interacting with Jim and Pam and not finding them anywhere as pleasant as they might seem when compared to the more outlandish office characters.
@@DodaGarcia That is a really great scene to recall. So true! He says something like "Maybe you guys aren't as charming as you think you are"
Very well put
EXACTLY. We need media comprehension classes STAT.
It's pretty clear to me that Roy wasn't being held back by Pam, but being dumped by Pam for good was the catalyst he needed to grow.
They held each other back
Yeh they were bad for each other. Two people being bad for each other doesnt necessarily mean they're bad people though.
@JXA yeah she did… she went from quiet, insecure, very passive, to someone more confident, outspoken, and fun
He was never held back he probably just wanted to better himself so he would get any girl ever again
@@Blyt03 no. She held him back. Roy was good.
Had no idea she was hated. Legit one of my favourite characters on the show 🤷♂️
why? she is her looks and nothing more
@@imascrew6218 you're a screw and nothing more
It appears that there are some morons who don't understand the show at all...
@@imascrew6218 That is the EXACT OPPOSTIE of what she is, shit for brains.
Ikr? She’s awesome.
She acts like a human being, she's imperfect. She fucks up...like a real human being. People hate seeing themselves on TV. That's why series with shallow and flat characters are conquering Netflix.
Underrated comment. "Chosen-one superwomen" are dominating current entertainment media. Women with zero imperfections, absolutely no flaws, and infinite unearned skills are everywhere in shows and movies. Perfection is 100% shallow and flat as unnuanced villains wanting to destroy the world because evil does that.
My thoughts exactly. Roy's behavior throughout the early seasons is also clearly abusive and as someone who's been in Pam's shoes, it's easy to get emotionally caught up with someone who shows you even the tiniest sliver of kindness, and to do so without realizing you've actually caught feelings. It's not an excuse for an emotional affair, but it's an explanation outside of "pam bad". As a victim of emotional abuse incredibly similar to the telling bits we see about her dynamic with roy, and as someone who is therefore in quite a few support groups, a LOT of her behavior is very similar to that of emotionally abused women.
And as far as her lying goes... her lies aren't exactly problematic for the most part. For example: boyfriend is worried boss will ruin meeting --> boss asks girlfriend about meeting --> girlfriend lies about meeting ; her "lie of omission" with roy at the bar also isn't exactly a lie considering she comes clean in private, when it's appropriate to do so.
Throughout the whole series, Pam makes a lot of morally good and morally bad/meh choices, but overall I think she's one of the few characters in the show actually concerned with being a good person and improving herself. The bonfire confession I think is a great example of her trying to be more open and honest with the people around her, and to be confident, but the delivery is poor and inappropriate (as it would be when a shy person is trying to advocate for themselves as their feelings).
thank you, I hated that people don't consider her a good character, when she is so two dimentional
Every human being acts like a human being. Yet somehow people dislike each other.
True
Jenna Fischer has said the casting director of the show told her "dare to bore me" at her audition, so I think she gave the performance she was told to give. She's not my favorite character, but the show needed a normal person like her for contrast. The show would have suffered from her absence.
She acts like a person who only leaves the house when she goes to work or the store. That's not a normal person
Yea I think Jenna Fischer is just genuinely a boring person
@@thirteen34. wouldn't matter, because you don't see Jenna Fischer. You only see Pam Beesly.
@@diagonal_wound5577no, she doesn't, you just have poor judgement and media literacy
I think that's why people hate her. They see themselves in her. She's a normal person who did really messed up things.
Dwight, Michael, and the rest of the characters were characters. They were so ridiculous that when they did horrible stuff, you couldn't take it seriously. It was funny cause it's so removed from reality. 🤷🏽♀️ Just my opinion on the matter.
Pam’s indecisive, scared, and impulsive. But she’s also hopeful, confident, and kind. But in the end, Pam is human. Nobody is completely good or bad but something is between
Yes thank you! Imagine if we judged real humans in our life like this lol or ourselves. People make mistakes!
Yeah but by the end of the show she gets very condescending, acting like she’s above others when she is also at fault. In the beginning of the show it was less apparent.
Yes, but everyone on the show was that way, especially at the end.
Idk man, if I was Roy and my fiancé left me for a co worker I’d be upset with her too.
Yes, but Roy didn’t help the situation. He took Pam and their relationship for granted.
I think the biggest problem with the Pam/Roy relationship is that they had been together since high school. So even though P&R were
now adults their relationship didn’t grow with them, at least not with Pam. It took them to be with other people to have adult relationships, especially Roy.
"pam led roy on for years" are you JOKING she literally wanted to marry his stupid ass even though he dragged their engagement out for literal years, not to mention how many signs of different kinds of abuse he shows lmfao
One thing Roy had going for him was he was much more handsome than Jim. 🙂
@@bridget1540 Are you joking
@@tristanneal9552 no
@@bridget1540 you got to be
@@bridget1540 BWHHAHAHAHAHWHWHAHAH good joke, bud
Whenever people mention Roy becoming a better person after he and Pam broke up, some tend to think that she was holding him back due to his relationship afterwards. I tend to think that he learned from his mistakes and took those lessons to his next relationship and that is why it appears to be healthier.
I dont see how she even could hold him back really
I think there was a part of him that really disliked her but stayed because it was the easy/comfortable things to do.
@@starlightwhispers6781 to me it looked like he just needed to lose big time to learn his mistake.
@@ankina86 Lose what exactly?
I don’t really see how SHE was holding him back considering she’s the one who wanted to get married and better their relationship and he’s the one who stayed stagnant…it’s weird
i think there’s a lot of dislike for Pam because while she can be the one in the wrong sometimes, Jim is almost never painted as the bad guy. I kind of liked when Jim was co-managing with Michael because you finally got to see more of his flaws and awkward moments. It reminds us that Jim is flawed too, and let’s not forget it takes two to tango. Pam gets some hate for her interest in Jim when she was engaged to Roy, but Jim was also making moves on a woman who he knew was engaged. But overall, the audience sees Jim as such a good guy, that in comparison, Pam’s flaws stand out more. We don’t see a lot of it because it’s off-camera, but Pam does make a lot of sacrifices too with staying home to raise the kids. I think it was important to make Pam’s flaws more apparent to the audience, so they could expand on her as a character instead of just chalking her up to be “Jim’s wife” after they got together.
People love to hate women tbh
yep i dont quite understand why people hate pam, but personally i am annoyed at jim, because when both him and pam do something wrong, he rarely gets any consequences, and he's always painted more sympathetically because he is technically the co-main character
I agree he can be an asshole sometimes @@cunix3433
OFC Jim is flawed, he often comes off like a bully. Thats why we rooted for Dwight when he kept throwing those snowballs at him.
@@cunix3433no, people hate both, this was just conveniently left out to call the haters sexist. this video isn't an honest explanation of why people hate pam (and jim) at all
I think It says a lot that people like Pam in the firsts seasons when she is your regular quiet shy girl next door and then people hate her when she becomes confident, speaks for helself and developes her own personality
She literally never speaks for herself, thats the most annoying part. She wants evryone to read her mind. Although i feep like she made up for everything she didnt do right in the last episode
@@benstewart8576 she speaks for herself when it comes to Ryan, at least.
Uh oh the society
Yeah I think that does say a lot…..
@@emperorthylord where is the lie tho
idk how you could read the beach outburst as cringe. it was a character finally developing the confidence to say what she had been feeling for a long time. it was a moment of growth and the action that led to her and jim finally getting together.
oh my god, thank you for saying this! that is one of my favorite moments in the entire show
There was something that would inevitably push them together, her actions made it happen and he decided he would leave Karen because, while she was great, was a rebound and Jim wanted to be with Pam not Karen. It’s sad, but it’s what happens.
Crazy because that was one of my favorite moments for her lol
I'm sorry but tbh it was very out of place and forced and pretty much a plot convenience. Not to mention, cringe.
She’s a worm 🪱
I want to mention that I didn't understand Pam's part in the Athlead story arc until I became a parent. Pam has been having to watch TWO young children, a baby and a toddler all by herself for either the entire weekend, or even more after Jim starts going part time at his regular work. That is not just a small inconvenience, that is INCREDIBLY difficult. Along with that, they already planned a life out in the suburbs with their kids. Moving to Philly also means moving away from their support network and family (which all live in Scranton), which means they would have to find new childcare! All this not even knowing if the company would even work out.
MOST start ups fail. And it's only because we know it succeeds that we retroactively hate Pam for holding Jim back from it.
I feel like people online seem to forget Jim and Pam have kids. They aren't a young childless couple who can just take huge risks and uproot their lives without really deeply considering it and planning for it.
Thank you, exactly this. What did people think Pam was doing all week when Jim was partying in Philly? Drinking wine and complaining woefully? No... she had to look after two children by herself, which she didn't sign up for..
Agreed!
Yep! People like to compare it to Jim "allowing" her to go to NY for art school and fully supporting her in that and not acknowledging the fact that they weren't even engaged yet, until she was gone, so there weren't a hundred things on the line for them like when he was at Athlead. She was rightfully upset and cautious about the move and leaving her job and he was incredibly selfish and almost threatening with his ultimatums.
@@blazingapparition2687 yep. They talked about her applying, he was aware of it being a thing, and the NY art program was only for 3 months. It had an end date. They didn't have kids, weren't engaged initially, didn't have a house and mortgage. Jim going off to Philly, they have 2 small children, a house, they're married, Jim made family affecting decisions without talking to his wife about it and she was left to have to look after the kids, the house, and work full time while Jim is off doing his thing.
i 100% agree!
How does anyone attribute Roy's off screen growth as pam holding him back??? It's clearly pam finally severing toes with him that he realized he was a terrible person.
I read the Roy's growth as a parallel to Pam's arc following their breakup of how neither of them were willing to grow out of their boxes at the beginning of the series; they were highschool sweethearts who were engaged for years and never bothered to grow from that. I am not discouraging marrying your highschool sweetheart and certainly not encouraging in wild acts during your twenties (like Ryan), but the scenario clearly did not work out well for Pam and Roy.
they were each other foils.
That relationship was never meant to work.
Severing toes?!
@@AK-wb2ww Sure. Everyone I've ever severed toes with realized they were a terrible person.
Wow not you making up shit. Try it on a toilet instead.
Pam in the beginning, while with Roy, was shy and careful and scared. When she got with Jim she became confident and happy. You can't hate her for that. She went from a bad, abusive relationship to a great, supportive one and her personality changed. That happens in real life and is a sign of happiness. If you hate her for that, you're hating on a character having confidence in herself.
I hate that when she started seeing Jim she became a total bitch and one of the main characters, she just uses Jim
@@Rainer_ow umm how?
Abusive?? What?
@@Tanaconasaperson when he found out she kissed jim, he literally broke all the alcohol in the bar, and almost punchs jim, thats not something a not abusive person would do in a sitution like that
@@Rainer_ow You need to get some pussy bruh. Seriously thats not being a bitch its standing up for yourself
I never thought people hated Pam. I thought she was the most relatable character in the show. Evolving,growing like any other character
She was just annoying at times. I didnt really like when they made her compulsive to a fault. Jim had to sit and respect her marriage/relationship but once he got in one she disregarded him & karen feelings and just said i love him deal with it. She quit the job with michael but then once she realized it was dumb she blamed him when she knows how he operates and no one forced her to do it. Ik characters grow just those instances felt like bad writing other than that she was fine.
@@Emmanny also she was basically cheating on Roy the whole time, emotionally, and even kissed Jim, women ☕️
Yeah I’m pretty sure that’s why people hate her lol, no one wants to see their own flaws on TV.
She didn't evolve she became a totally different person. She wanted to follow her dream that would lead to nothing Jim being a fool allowed and when it was time for him to follow his dream that would actually lead to something she objected.
@@Emmanny Shes still a woman it makes complete sense she would blame everyone else for her problems.
Ngl Pam is more relatable than Jim and goes through arguably the biggest character development on the show. She’s a top character on the show imo and integral to the plot
I find her more human than Jim. He seems wooden at times and not relatable at all. I relate more to Dwight and have come to respect him more and dislike Jim less for wasting more time than Michael with his kid-like pranks
I see what you did there
@@fawneckman9297 A lot of people seem to think Jim is peak character development.
I love the guy but getting down to it he's very unrealistic tbh. He barely changes as the show goes on and never truly develops past the "office idiot" personality.
The only times he actually shows a more real side is anytime Pam is involved
Boo! Tomatoes! Boo boo
@@Trinket_Master I think he developed, going from someone who was staunchly non-committal with regards to his job and life in general, to someone who was more committed, around Season 6 (they didn't need to add the line about Jim only slacking when things were good. He was pretty much past that point). After that, Jim found himself in a rut again, before taking a chance on something new and inspiring, and when he found some success at the new venture, he gave it up for his family.
And, while he could be annoyed by Dwight, Jim showed that he would go so far as to wrestle him to the ground, to prevent Dwight from unfairly losing his job, though Season 2 showed that Jim cared much more than he let on (starting with taking Dwight to the ER, after he got a concussion)
A big reason why Pam is really hated is Jim. Everyone thinks that Jim is too good to be true for her and he settled for less when he left Karen. In all the grand gestures by Jim people really forget all the subtle sacrifices Pam made everytime to be with him too! Pam is also one of the most intuitive characters throughout the show she always knew when someone wasn't in their best of moods and tried to make it better on her end which is something she rarely got from others!
Nobody thinks that, he IS too good for her. It’s no mystery he loves her more than she loves him. 9/10 “cute” moments they have together it’s him doing something for her. Him coming to her rescue, him being the hero. Whereas without her, he wouldn’t be missing out on anything bc she does nothing
So true as she is the one true compassionate character and thats why Jim Dwight and Michael think so much of her! Fact!
So true when she made that book for him that was the sweetest gift ever
@@ctorreyou literally reiterated what I said, Jim's gestures were so big and eye catchy for the audience that nobody cared when Pam would silently make a lot of sacrifices like when he left to make his own company she handled everything back home on her own without once losing patience as oppose to Jim, she even left her art career because long distance was becoming hard on their relationship along with the fact that she didn't see results. I'm not saying that she deserves a lot of recognition for it but to some extent it explains the hate. Not to forget the way their relationship progressed was also a very true representation of what real life relationships are, most times one partner secretly makes sacrifices that the world does not see.
No i hated her when she always whine about her job, and when Jim finally got a job he loves and has huge potential, she didnt support him and decide to stay at the job she used to hate, because it makes her comfortable. To the point he had to quit the job for her. She’s so pathetic. One little thing that makes her uncomfortable she’ll play victim.
When Pam said she wasn’t sorry for what she said at the campfire, I didn’t interpret that as her being a bitch. I interpreted that as her being confident enough to stand by what she said because it was her truth. She realized that she has the right to voice how she feels, even if it makes others uncomfortable. She even said that the fact that he was with Karen was fine and she just missed his friendship. She didn’t lie about her romantic feelings for Jim, but she also didn’t try to break Jim and Karen up either. Karen interpreted it as bitchy because she sees Pam as a threat to her relationship and was simply scared, as Karen is human as well. Pam deserves to say how she truly feels after keeping it inside for years and settling for less. She didn’t deserve the abuse from Roy when she lied to him. She was learning to be more honest with herself and others. I love Pam’s character arc in the first three seasons. It shows how human she is. She is unique because she knows that she’s flawed unlike the many other characters that are comically detached from reality. I can personally relate to her and the lessons she’s learned.
If she is a bitch for doing it at the campfire Jim is even worse for doing it while she was planning a wedding
Like an overlap is hard. Especially when Roy and Pam had so many problems. It's to her credit that she gave Roy a chance even after a two year engagement and even tried to speak with him after the pepper spray incident. And not try to poach Jim as if he was a free beach chair. She even kinda made friends with Karen. Planned a fun party with her. And Karen didn't deserve to live with a guy who only liked her. She cried for two weeks and met a man who married her for her. Not because she was cool. She became a high powered manager and seems happy to be a mother and a boss. It sucks to get out of relationship. But even Roy was bettered because he broke up with the wrong person. Comically so.
This is probably the most realistic example of cheating in the series and really technically wasnt cheating, just people treating each other poorly while going through stressful turmoil. Jim's bad reaction to unrequited love Pam's indecision because of bad relationship in her past. Roy's explosive anger at facing his flaws and Karen being blindsided and naively hoping that all of Jim's red flags are work arounds if you apply enough ultimatums. They all became better people.
I never liked Pam, BUT that campfire scene is my favorite scene of her, and was proud that she finally spoke up
@@Darceyab Jim didn’t do that in front of a dozen other people and Roy like Pam did in front of a dozen people and Karen.
It was wrong because she made Karen uncomfortable. If she would’ve spoken to him in private what she said would’ve been fine.
I don't know that you can say Pam held Roy back. He clearly held her back when it came to pursuing art. I think Roy's growth came from finding his passion after the break up. Their relationship was one of familiarity and safety, not love or passion. From what we were shown, Roy never showed any desire to do anything and clearly put his relationship with his brother above Pam.
Came to comment this! Roy was the one who help pam back.
Held*
But she didn’t really pursue her art interest either. She failed in the course she was taking and came back running to Jim. I personally dont hate Pam but I do think she is a loser. Just a good looking loser. I feel like Jim liked her coz of her loser ness.
Who doesn't care about their brother more than their girl lol
She failed art school and couldn't be bothered to continue another 3 months to pass.
I love Pam, she's mostly great. The only ones I really hated were Ryan, last season Andy and Gil. I didn't hate Michael but I probably would if he was my boss
What About Todd Packer?
@@Polk277 Todd F. Packer is a pain in the butt but I didn't really hate him. Probably because I think David Koechner is hilarious
I'm with you in almost everything dude. Except for Packer. I really hated Packer.
I might be spacing hard, but who is Gil?
@@Van9fromOuterSpace Gil was Oscar's boyfriend, he only appeared a handful of times
I honestly had no idea that Pam was so hated, she's one of my favorite characters in the show (I'm on Season 4) and she's part of what makes The Office one of the best sitcoms ever
That's bc people usually hate Pam after season 5ish. But I don't get it either, obviously she's not perfect but there's no reason to HATE her.
Yeah finished the series, still love her lol@@elisa_csrn
She's my favorite character, only watched to the end because of her
She was my 2nd favorite character behind Michael until the forced drama between her and Jim (I never liked jim) in season 9 where I couldn’t stand her, not sure if you are aware but something big happens at the end of season 7, sure there were some good episodes after but that’s where the show should have ended.
@@elisa_csrnshe was literally too playful with jim while still being with someone else i’m on season 2 rn and i already don’t like her
I think the reason Pam’s imperfection seems to stick out more is because she’s not cluelessly stupid in a way the other characters are most of the time. You can write off Michael, Dwight, Andy, and many of the others as being too unaware of themselves to realize what they’re doing is wrong or dumb. But since Pam is portrayed as more “normal” with a greater sense of what’s socially acceptable, it makes the times she does similar actions as the others more out of left field. Another good (and properly done) example of this is Ryan - he was also portrayed in the same way in the early seasons, which is why he was rightfully hated once he started screwing things up with Dunder Mifflin in Season 4.
Spot on 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Nice observation.
Nah, it's easier to just say misogyny. 🙄
Agree with you all the way up to the point that Ryan however intentionally was taking on the pantheon of a corporate shill. That is to say he was intentionally conducting himself as the a cold corporate operator and was largely the "villain" foiling the objectives of the "hero / protagonist" (Michael) and the little people (the Scranton staff). Pam was rarely intentionally mean, or to the degree that she was it was mostly reflective of interpersonal conflicts that we all have with rivals (Karen and others she may have conflicted with from time to time).
Also Ryan was easy to dislike because he was a clout chaser from the beginning who was overly self-assured, as oppose to Pam being way easier to sympathize with as she was very self-consciously and overly self-unassured. She was even walked over and somewhat humiliated for having a low level job (clerk) and then poorly performing when she got a higher level job (sales rep). She was annoying at times and the bad guy in a couple situations; but all the characters were.
@@LembeckIsStaying it’s not tho so why say it
I have always loved Pam. She lacks courage and charisma and is a little self-centred at times but she is always trying to be braver and battles with her flaws and doesn’t try to be anything other than herself. I think that’s pretty cool.
Yes. I think she's the kind of person America tends not to get, given the enormous emphasis this society puts on self-confidence.
She is just dumb and stupid and very selfish. She destroyed jim's life. I think their Marriage won't even last long.
That's why she's one of my favorites. She grows so much throughout the show, from meek and submissive to outgoing and confident.
I dont hate her too much. I mean i just didnt like the way she treat Jim. Im still thinking he deserved better. Pam never did something for Jim, he left his job and girlfriend and she didnt even ask him to go out or something. She is so cute but alone
@@anothergg2692 she left art school for him, took care of both their kids practically alone while he was pursuing his dream and moved to Philly so Jim could continue pursuing it
As someone who has always been the quiet one growing up and put up with "friends" who constantly walked all over me, I loved seeing Pam in the 3rd season. Making little changes all the way through and slowly standing up for herself more and more until Beach Games. It's such a great thing to see, especially as it happened over time. There are some moments where I don't always like how she acts, but that sums up every character in the show! I also find she is so relatable when she breaks down to Jim, saying she's scared that she isn't enough for him, I'm sure so many people can relate to that feeling, and to see her finally overcome that insecurity at the end shows her growth.
I get why some people don't like her though.
Season 3 belonged to Pam.
Couldn’t agree more
Literallyyyy
People get mad at her for breaking down about things to jim and being scared about making changes like athleap, but most people in a relationship have probably had those fears
I myself know BOTH me and my boyfriend have talked to eachother about boundaries and things were not ready for, or being scared were not enough, and I usually always cry when we have those conversations
Doesn’t mean we don’t eventually grow past it and become better, it’s BEST that she tells jim these things, cause if she holds it in, it’ll only create more doubt, which will lead to way worse.
Besides, Pam eventually was ready for the changes she was scared of, and soon they moved on to better things, she just needed some time
@@pacrat190 exactly this! It's a pretty normal thing in a relationship where you have a good level of communication, when you have worries like that (which are normal) it's good to talk them over, get back on the same page. It's not manipulative or wrong, it's compromising. I think people forget that Jim went behind Pam's back with Athlead, they had agreed he wouldn't be a part of it... then he secretly was a part of it... they agreed to invest a small amount of savings in it... he threw ALL their savings into it when they had two young kids and a mortgage (ultimately it worked out as the company was a hit, but a lot of startups fail so this was a huge risk). Add in Pam being exhausted juggling a full time job, raising two young kids and their house, and Jim being over worked and tired from travelling between two jobs, it's no wonder tensions were high between them!
But in the end she turned it around and did her big Jim gesture at a time when she was actually happy and excited to move and go for it!
She PURPOSEFULLY ruined Jim and Karen's relationship.
I genuinely really loved Pam throughout the show. She had the best character development and she was just so relatable.
I think best character development goes to Dwight since he goes from crazy psychopath to relatable nice rational guy
@@ZipZap43 I agree 👍 💯
Pam was a cheater, liar, manipulative, feminists, from beginning to end. She didn't develope and if that is relative to your life? Your life needs new choices lol.
I think this is why so many men hate her. She's an average woman. 😢
Roy didnt care about her, what she wants, how she feels, he mostly just put her in some position and she didnt know how to defent herself.
It was just old school love without knowing what is love. But than Pam seen it in Bob Vence or what is his name. He truly love Phylis and Pam wanted the same and she realized she has nothing like it with Roy. She only kissed once and then she breaked up with Roy. Thats why he changed until she came back.
IT will happend to any Roy and thats totally ok. He was like pain in ass and than people like him hate her, poor boy. Action = reaction
"Beauty in the ordinary," I think Pam was given this line because she embodied the show more than anyone else. She's ordinary but she's beautiful. We've probably all known someone like her at some point.
Pam is NOT beautiful. Stop it.
@@torachan23 read through your other comments on this channel, you seem miserable and fr a super hater. Find a hobby
@@torachan23 in attractive ness terms?
@@torachan23 I don't think they meant attractive wise
@@torachan23 she is you’re obviously blind
In a cast full of characters that are morally questionable at best and blissfully unaware of it, Pams character was constructed to be the opposite of that, the self-aware yet shy voice of reason. If she slips and messes up, the viewer is much more unforgiving with that. She and her actions are being held to a much higher standard and its almost comical how much that differs from what we expect of most of the other characters. Pam in this series is being treated as the typical big sister archetype where she is granted little to no room for failure. I am very wary of people who are passionately hating on her.
Nailed it. Exactly my thoughts.
creed is the worst "worst" for sure and nobody talks about him.
Yes, at first. But she stops being shy and becomes smug and arrogant. Which is fine, but not when the show insists on systematically vindicating her for being smug and arrogant. That's how you kill comedic characters. Not understanding this is why American comedies are generally significantly less funny than British comedies. Americans always start rewarding their funny and oblivious characters too much, which makes them not funny immediately. Chandler, Leslie Knopes etc. Very few American comedies avoid this stupidity entirely. Seinfeld, Larry Sanders and Arrested Development are the only TV shows that really come to mind.
The Office did it with nearly all its characters. Even Dwight had his lunacy increasingly validated. But the worst two are Jim and Pam, or Smug and Smugger as i call them. Comedy is an exaggerated personal tragedy. If you let sentimentality reign it is impossible to make comedy at all. All you can do then are cheap gags and puns, which aren't really funny if it's the only thing you do.
I wonder why this is. I'm quite similar to her yet oddly enough I despise her. I think everyone else's personality is so outrageous that you're unable to apply normal standards to them. You end up accepting them just as they are, but with Pam, she's the only 'normal' one in the show, so you're forced to apply your standards to her. I think also, everyone one the show seems to transcend their position in life - you don't think of any of them as 'office workers', their personalities have elevated them to a completely different level, whereas Pam perfectly represents that mundane, mediocre, keeping your head down and getting on with it mentality that anyone watching is completely repulsed by, probably because that's what they're trying to escape by watching the show.
Yes, that passion should be saved for Angela
also, people LOVE to bring up the office administrator thing, even though Pam got paid, she actually did things to help the office. (resolution board, planned events, etc.). HOWEVER, they forget that the assistant to the regional manager/assistant regional manger thing came with a pay raise (jim says this when micheal makes him his #2 in season 3) and jim said in season 5 (when he was talking to Charles Minor) that no real responsibilities came with the job title. so pam was doing things and getting paid (as she should) while jim was doing nothing and getting paid. but yeah lets trash pam
Jim was probably saying that to mess with Dwight
@@jackofalloff Then why did he say it to Charles Miner when Dwight wasn't there to hear it?
@@InitialPC He never told charles that he gets paid more he just told him that there are no responsibilities with the job
@@InitialPC minor I hardly know her!
@@Misslastate2001
Badum tss
I honestly don’t get why people hate her,
She’s probably one of the most human characters
People hate humans
No one likes a girl that puts two men wrapped around her finger and cannot make up her mind on who to be with
shes a terrible one:/
Absolutely one of the worst human beings alive. She always wanted jim to find something to be inspired by, something to make him want to express himself. But as soon as he did and it started getting hard for her, she tried to take it all away from him. Terrible wife, terrible mother, nothing but a spoiled, selfish, little girl
@@RabidDisposition Why would Pam want to risk her family for a dream that may fly or not. Jim didnt tell her about investing their savings and just decided to pursue this job leaving her to pick up the slack. Would be different if they hadnt started a family. Why was she a bad mother? She is the only one on the show who consistently felt bad when others when they were hurting! I like how you can ignore what other characters did that was way worse. Your definition of spoiled is way off as only Jim spoiled her and that was because he adored her.
At least she didn't complain about a microwave smelling like popcorn, complain someone should clean it, then ignore the fact she was the one making popcorn.
Man, it's even better. She was using the microwave in the break room during their lil club meeting to make popcorn because the OTHER microwave smells like popcorn
popcarn
@TRILL FISH how so
@TRILL FISH Honestly I think Phyllis is just a bitch. Even before Pam took her clients when Phyllis found out she was dating Jim she called her a slut and accused her of giving Jim special treatment over the rest of the sales team.
@@InitialPC I think Phyllis just is a generally nice person with a dark side. But I like that someone her age and look can' have more depth then a popped monocle.
Phyllis does the same shit and nobody says anything 🤷♂️
I know it makes me so mad Phyllis did alot more bad things then pam
Oh, Phyllis is an awful person. Along with Ryan and Kelly. Almost forgot about Stanley.
I think people don't mind when characters who aren't the protagonist do bad things. Everybody loves creed and he probably killed people and steals everything. People don't hate angela who routinely cheats.
Pam is supposed to be a realistic character and is a protagonist. So when they do things "bad" we hold them more accountable
@@derekfurst6233 Actually, I think it might be more that "the series tells us this character is a horrible person, the things they do is horrible and so we don't need to mention it because we all understand that's the case" as opposed to "the series is telling us that this character is good and we should like them, but when we examine the things they do-- they aren't so good." It's often the protagonist that gets framed as likable and so you are correct that it is usually going to be that character where the disconnect happens. But it can be a minor character that gets framed as being "good" but then doesn't live up to that moral standard and would be very frustrating to the audience.
Phyllis is my least favourite character 👍
I think that's what it comes down to. If you dislike pam I get it. But the way people zero in on her as if she's the only person on the show who's messed up or does awful things is just weird. I do think some of it is rooted in sexism. Because people view everything through the lens of how the men in her life were affected without understanding her motivations. Whereas when some of the male characters do something wrong, people are more understanding of that character. When dwight has affairs with angela over and over people sympathize with dwight as being hopelessly in love and endearing. When pam is in love with jim while hes with Karen, shes a homewrecker and morally bankrupt. When other characters lie, people just accept as part of the arc or the joke. When pam lies, she's some sociopathic pathological liar. Again I think its because people view pam entirely through the lens of this manic pixie dream girl that is supposed to just make jim happy and never have any flaws or motivations or ambitions of her own. They don't view her as a character, just an object for Jim's affections
I used to hate Phyllis for what I believe was sexism because whilst I didn't consciously change my mind, I became indifferent to her as just a person, whereas in the past I used to associate her with a certain type of annoying mom figure. I believe the sexism is rooted in younger people, usually men, being told constantly that making difficult choices and "nagging" are undesirable traits but never told why those traits occur. They're usually not exhibited in young women because of lack of responsibility and young women generally getting whatever they want, so they have the privilege of acting more masculine without consequences. Older women are labelled as annoying.
Although part of the frustration might be the idea that the perfect girl should be flawless, and Pam is painted as a straightman. There's a lot to it. There's also excessive love for Jim, or Walter White in the case of Skylar
THIS!!!!!!
Dude saying it's sexism is a cop out. I personally didnt enjoy Pam she subconsciously reminded me of girls ive dated so i just kind of shut her out of my mind. But yeh i didn't hate her like some other people do, just wasn't fond of her.
💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯
There are people who hate Pam? She's freakin awesome! Very real and human like character and she inspired me to speak my mind more.
i don't really hate her but i hate some of the actions she makes, the ONE MAIN DECISION is kissing jim while she's still in a relationship with roy. i know he was neglectful but all that is thrown out the window when she kissed jim back.
@@legatelanius1465 that happens all the time
@@nicoservin2870 what happens all the time?
@@legatelanius1465 I mean she broke it off with Roy like right after
Granted she really should’ve told Roy the first time they broke up rather than later on, but at least she broke it off like that night
Tho she definitely was emotionally cheating on Roy, tho for their whole relationship it was accidental because she didn’t develop feelings for jim(that she realized were romantic) up until pretty close to when he left
I can’t believe people actually like her 😒😒
well it's complicated not to "hold back" your partner when his new career move is basically leaving you alone with 2 kids and a full-time job in another city. he had a family and several responsabilities but acted like he was a teenager with nothing to lose. also it wasn't even something safe, i mean, most start ups fail within a few years. also, i don't think she held Roy back from anything. she wanted to get married and grow in life but he never took anything seriously. i don't know, maybe they were just not right for each other and did better after separating
Why did she get hate for "holding Roy back" when he wouldn't arrange a marriage date also Jim moving away was ruining their relationship who would want that srsly people act like life is so simple
@@benjaminjohnson235 right? she even tried getting back together with him but he just wouldn't take her seriously. it's great that he found someone else who was the right one for him, and so did she
@@Vitoria-ji6tq exactly!!
She could have moved. She didn't like anyone from work anyways. If she moved Jim would be there always. Jim was gone for a few days out of the week. Not to mention her job was just a minimum wage job that was becoming obsolete. Any other job would have been the better because atleast she can move up, but naah. If she did move Jim would have been able to help her. Apparently you can't take risks or work hard for your families future or struggle for a bit while coming up, according to you guys, smh.
She saw Jim was happy and thriving even being quirky and funny again. She was so insecure that that made her give him an ultimatum. She almost cheated on him and basically made him quit his dream job or else she'd divorce him. She acts like the man was out there committing crimes or using drugs or cheating. Nope he was working two jobs for their families future, lmao.
@@cloudyns they had kids and a whole life in Scranton, it's not that easy lol. she was alone with their kids for 80% of the week, she was exhausted. I get it that he was doing it for his family and etc but it was a pretty risky move and Pam never liked risks. you're telling me you'd be ok taking care of your kids while your partner is in another state playing basketball with his idols? come on. and it's not about being insecure, it's about being overwhelmed and exhausted. and he wasn't being quirky and etc, he was being completely divorced from reality at times. remember that scene where he yells at her on the phone because she couldn't record Cece's play? that's fucking exhausting, no wonder she gave him an ultimatum
Jim should get at least some hate for continually not standing up for Pam. He said nothing when Toby put his hand on her knee…
*That's the joke*
I think the nature of cringe humor. That they create a moment of such emotional vulnerability that no one knows how to react. So that the audience feels as weird as the people in the scene.
A socially appropriate response would be unlikely for something so shocking, and not gotten a laugh when he jumped the fence and moved to south america.
*Central America
SAME
Oh Fuck no...Toby isn't even someone who'd be harmful to Pam. And Jim has done tooo much for their relationship already.Pam just existed while Jim did everything
I've been made more pro Pam because the concentrated hate on her while turning a blind eye to the far worse acts of the other characters is ridiculous.
Austin Green
I agree. They have all treated each other badly.
Yeah a lot of the things she does that makes people hate her someone else also did and arguably was worse.
Her flirting with Jim while dating Roy (or staying with Roy knowing she has feelings for Jim)
Jim dates Katy and Karen basically to try use them to get over Pam and then dumps them in horrible ways when he suddenly realizes it isn't working.
She lies to become office manager.
Ryan lied and his lie meant that he became Kelly's superior, despite her running her department alone for years. Pam's job didn't do that.
People say Jim supported Pam going to art school but she didn't support his dreams. Totally different situations. They were not even engaged, no kids, no mortgage and MOST IMPORTANTLY Jim was aware every step of the way. He knew she applied, knew when she got in and knew how long she'd be gone. Jim and Pam agreed that he wouldn't take the job and then he went behind her back, took the job, hid it from her and then she was expected to pick up the pieces for an unknown time period.
I just think it's weird these points make people hate her when they are pretty mild compared to other characters
The thing is, most of the other characters aren’t written to be liked. Pam on the other hand is sort of a “good guy” on the show - so her misdeeds stick out more.
Me, I just really dislike how she basically made Jim give up his dream job. And to be managed by Dwight of all people…
@@izzynobre
Pam did want Jim to have his dream job that's she was willing to move to Texas so he can have it.
When it came to Philly and
and taking the job there
Pam was understandably upset because because Jim didn't handle the situation well at all.
Plus because of his job in Philly, Jim was putting his family on the back burner.
Also the show was about the characters being in Scranton so if Pam had left to be with him then they wouldn't have been on the show. Pam was written to be more normal, and real, than the other characters,but that doesn't necessarily mean nicer.
Also it was Jim's own fault
by having to work under Dwight because Jim was offered the regional manager position and he turned it down.
@@melchiorviguiedesplaces8184 The most toxic compared to normal people you mean? Cause many of their coworkers would be fired within their first year just by being their normal selves. Michael obviously would be.
I have empathy for Pam’s character.
Her fiancé didn’t treat her with the utmost respect and called her his girlfriend. He didn’t make an effort in their relationship as much as she needed emotionally. She wanted her relationship to work out with Roy, but knew deeply she was in love with Jim.
In later seasons, she was a new mother with a husband that didn’t tell her he had invested in a company and was rarely home because he often worked. She wanted him to be happy with his job, but I understand why she didn’t want to pack up and leave her hometown for a completely new environment.
Throughout the seasons she works on personal growth. For example, standing up for herself, finding confidence, and realizing she’s good enough for Jim. I find her personal struggles to be realistic. She’s not perfect, but no one is.
Exactly
she cheated on him tho, no justification for that.
@@jhonklan3794Michael was sleeping with a married woman after she told him she was married, Dwight and Angela slept together while she was engaged to Andy, Oscar was sleeping with Angela’s husband, and Stanley was having an affair too. I’m just saying that people rarely bring them up but talk a lot about the Pam and Jim kiss
Failed in art.
Broke off the engagement with Roy.
Flirted shamelessly with Jim while being engaged.
Overreacted by slapping and insulting the boss just cos her mother was dating Michael.
Became fat and unlikable in later seasons.
Failed saleswoman.
Stopped Jim for pursuing his dream job.
She was likeable at the beginning, don't get me wrong, but later became so terrible when she started having her own voice and opinion.
@@sidmenon8470
“Failed in art”
- Literally won an art contest, painted
for Scranton
“ Broke of the engagement with Roy”
- An engagement that was made three years ago with no wedding in sight (until Roy finally came the conclusion that an engagement shouldn’t be that long)
- It was showed that Roy and Pam were not that good for each other and his and her character developed after their final break up
“Flirted shamelessy with Jim”
- She didn’t see it as flirting and felt uncomfortable when people marked their talking as such and even distanced herself when things went too far( I mean the episode were they are in Dwight’s karate club)
- Jim also still had feelings for her even though he was with Karen
“Overreacting and slapping her Boss cuz he was dating her Mother”
- First of all imagine your boss with your mother or father
- Then imagine someone like Michael with your Mother and Father
- She slapped Michael not only because he was dating her mother but also that he broke up with her on her birthday
“Became fat and unlikeable in later season”
- For the first one I have no words. Straight up insulting people for being fat is just awful
- In later seasons she got character development and became more confident ( if that’s what you hate about a woman okay👀)
“ Failed Saleswoman”
- That is actually true, she had the worst numbers besides Andy
“ Stopped Jim for pursuing his dream Job”
- Carried her Job, art career and family alone while Jim was at Philadelphia even though Jim didn’t talk with her on anything before but she still agreed with it and made it possible for him
- In the end she talked with Daryl to make it possible for Jim to have his dream job again, sold the house and moved with him and the Kids to Philadelphia
Look Pam isn’t my favorite Character either but the points you made are so dumb and I have to ask did you even watch the fucking show ??
From the beginning Pam wasn't supposed to be interesting, or funny, or smart. She was meant to be boring. While casted Jenna Fischer was literally asked to be boring. Though it doesn't mean she can't have some of that simple sweetness in her
It always surprised me how people villainize her for flirting with Jim while engaged with someone so abusive with literal violent tendensies as Roy. She even was the one to blame for voilent outburst Roy has like what the actual fuck?? I also like the fact that Jim can flirt with someone who's engaged and it's fine, but Pam become a bad person for being on the other side of that.
I mean all the characters are pretty messed up but Pam always gets all the hate because she's the most relatable and vulnurable of them all
thank you! Roy was definitely abusive to her and I can’t believe others don’t recognise this
@@australianctzen yes!
Yep, she was meant to be more like the The Office UK's 'Pam'.
Angela had a full on affair with Dwight while with Andy, and cheated on the Senator with Dwight too but somehow Pam is the worst? 🥴🙄 Smh I'm done with the Pam hate, she is flawed but she is not a bad person. Jim kissed her once and then she called off her wedding! Roy treated her like dog shit and flirted with many girls all the time. He sucked so bad, and he was was abusive and violent but somehow Pam is the one to blame? Roy didn't give a shit about Pam, and she was confused about her feelings for Jim. She never made moves on Jim while she was with Roy, and he kissed her once then broke it off with Roy. I'm not saying it was right but people act like she was the worst when she wasn't. Michael, Angela, Ryan, Roy, Todd Packer, Jan, Meridith I can go on and on!
I don’t dislike her cause of that
FYI, titular isn't just a synonym for main character. "Titular character" means "the one the title refers to." The Office doesn't have any titular characters.
the office is the titular character
Was gonna make the same comment
UNDERRATED COMMENT
Please, all women are titular characters. Some men too unfortunetly
Psh. Get a load of Cornell over here.
Personally, I loved the character of Pam. I think that she is possibly one of the most well written, realistic characters ever made. Sure, did she do some questionable things? Yes. But she’s only human.
Now, everyone is entitled to her own opinion, but I feel like most of the reasons people say they hate her are pretty much bullshit and unfair.
Her jokes don't land she almost eats spoiled yogurt and almost dressed up as Hitler in NY gave Meridith lice cheated on Roy and he had to spend all the Jetski money to fix the damage at Pour Richards because of her indescretion also lost his job and got fat she quit art school lied about being office administrator to Gabe got banned from Chilis for over consumption didn't get any beans with her frizzy haired head shot didn't give Angela a save the date initially to her wedding put her weight on the scale when they were trying to win vacation days when it was family only and helped Ryan steal shoes from the bowling alley. That's a lot of bad in a lady imo lmao
@@noveaubleu702 making so many bad points I don’t have time to refute them all isn’t a good argument.
@@noveaubleu702 “that’s alot of bad in a lady”
If I looked at a decade of your life, deliberately cherry picked and often misconstrued a bunch of random minor offenses, I have no doubt that I could make you look about as bad. Same with pretty much fucking everybody except for like, Jesus. Humans have flaws.
I think it’s kind of creepy how you seem to have went to go and research this much shit to try and defame a fucking fictional character. Like, some of this stuff I don’t even remember at all.
@@elijahfordsidioticvarietys8770 it was a light hearted joke and you actually made it weird
I didn't go and research I liked a comedy and have seen them. Go watch the show all that stuff happened. I didn't have to do research.The whole show was based around Pams evolution but whatever you obviously didn't get me joking thats your problem
@@noveaubleu702 “it was a light hearted joke”
Yeah, no it wasn’t. I mean, what the fuck is that joke even supposed to be? You hate Pam.
“I didn’t have to do research.”
Yes. You definitely remembered all that obscure Office trivia off the top of your head, and it also didn’t take you like a whole hour to write it down.
So. Let me get this straight. Jim knowingly chases after a woman that he knows is engaged to another man, but yet the woman is solely to blame? Ok. Jim buys his parents house for him and Pam to live in, but does not ask Pam for her opinion, but Pam is manipulative? Jim uses their money to buy into a business, but does not consult with Pam, and doesn't tell her immediately, yet Pam is a liar? Ok. Jim starts a relationship with Karen, and doesn't tell her he is still in love with Pam, and again, Pam is the liar? Ok. The sad fact is, most of the women that don't like Pam is because they like Jim, regardless of the afore mentioned issues. Most men don't like her because how dare she not get with Jim immediately. How about we hold everyone to the same standards, and stop expecting more from women.
This. You're so right
This is why I always include JIM in my Pam hate. They don't make each other better.
They're both at fault, Jim for being a disrespectful simp who is deliberately trying to ruin an engagement, and Pam for being super flirty and clearly having feelings for him and stringing him along
100% agreed
So. Let me get this straight. @malebovinwmamure is a sexist
Wow, I really loved Pam. I loved her arc from "visibly nervous and shy" to "confident and self assured". I think she definitely went through some rough parts, but I think everyone does. Everyone makes mistakes, and try to justify them after with some not great actions. I sure as hell have done that in the past, and even though I'm working on it, I'm sure I'll make mistakes in the future. I could see myself in Pam, and respected the hell out of her by the end. (She also really made me giggle some times)
The person that made this video is just a misogynist and has no idea what they’re talking about. The whole video was basically “I liked Pam when she was quieter and didn’t speak out about what she wanted” and saying that she led Roy on, when HE was the one that was postponing the wedding. Like come on
@@muffinator1239 Damn right
Yeah I didn't like her at first because she was mean but also played the victim. I don't mind if she is a little ruthless as long as she doesn't try to play the victim like the first couple of seasons.
@@zeaferjones1404 when was Pam ever mean? And when did she ever play the victim? I’m genuinely curious cause I haven’t rewatched the show in years lol. Only clips from time to time.
Her character was adorable. There seems to be ridiculous named videos for everything on youtube.
pam is my all time favourite office character. People hold her (and Jim) to a different standard because they're the most "normal".
Jim is just awful.
Unpopular opinion: Jim is the real villain and not Roy, Jim destroys a upcoming wedding bc he keeps flirting with pam. Pam cancels the wedding and then Jim is hitting on Karen.
Jim is always picking on dwight but when it’s reversed. He is almost acting like a little child.
Jim wanted to be regional manager. But because Micheal is already the manager, he defends his position ofcourse. During the call Micheal has with corporate Jim is almost crying lol. So during the time Jim is co manager he totaly changes to a manager that is very full of himself.
Jim didn’t let Pam to achieve her art dreams etc. But totally started a business without saying Pam so she just needs to accept it.
@@Bugsbunny-ph3jt You're proving my point.. You could do this with any character, all you did was point out everyone of his faults.
@user-ri9hx2cc6k but it was very clear the she didn't love Roy. And I understand why Jim would want to try and replace michael as he was not good at being manager but was great at sales
@@gator_productions not only that but roy sometimes treated her like garbage, jim didn't let pam to achieve her art dreams? when Jan told her that there was an opening in design in NY he went crazy and didnt let her go, he was an A-hole the entire time with her, i dont like Pam either, but that was a toxic relationship
All the Pam haters make me like her even harder. She's the most real character on the show faced with decisions that would affect her life. She's flawed and thats what makes her real. She's not someone who did the right thing 100% of the time. No one in real life is. She wasn't an over exaggeration of a caricature like they did to Kevin or Meridith. (Whos only characteristic became being fat and stupid and a nymphomania drunk)
Pam had character development. Like you said in the video, she was shy, timid and didn't stand up for herself in the beginning but she later gained that confidence.
She might had done things I didn't agree with but life is making some bad choices and learning and growing from them. That's why I like Pam.
Keep this same energy when it comes to people you hate in real life, not just fictional characters you get triggered from hearing people don't like.
@@torachan23 bruh shut up
It reminds me of Michael saying “Im gonna start dating her even harder.” 😂😂😂
@@torachan23 LMAO Dude
Lol. She is the worst even if you like her. She almost destroyed roy's life.
I am pretty sure jim is gonna leave her. This type of women don't deserve good men
People hate her because her character development and personality was portrayed more maturely than others. If this was real life, Dwight shooting Stanley with a tranquilizer, Jan making Michael get multiple vasectomies, Michael injuring Daryl and running over Meredith, the multiple affair arcs, are way objectively worse than what Pam has done but are viewed as comedic relief so it’s acceptable. Not to mention, Pam is greatly sexually harassed and objectified in the show.
Pam is a human being, always a joy to watch. I didn't find her beach outburst cringe, she finally stood up for herself which is very hard to do when you aren't used to it. As a person with a fear of confrontation I really enjoyed that moment. Watching her discover her voice and become more assertive was very inspiring to me. Also, I always hated how people treated Pam. Most think she sleeps around and is like Meredith in that way just because she looks more appealing than the other women in the office. The fact that people hate her so much is a tragedy.
Let's not forget that Roy tried to discourage Pam from going for the graphic design training in New York.
Roy changing after the breakup wasn't because she was holding him back, he is not a victim of her complacency, it's also possible that he changed because he probably realized that he had some unhealthy behaviours and traits which made him lose Pam and his job, he learnt and grew.
Earlier on, Pam tried to convince Jim to take a better paying job, but he chose to stay. (The job in Maryland)...she did care about his professional development. When they were married she just wanted to be more involved in the decision making process...Jim often made moves that would affect them both without involving her, like when he invested their savings without consulting her, it worked out but it also easily could have failed, she wasn't trying to hold him back and she even compromised by letting go of her own perspective to reason the way Jim did about spontaneous decision making (hence the final decision to sell the house).
Same with Roy when she decided not to go to New York after he gave her his reasons for why he thought it was a bad idea.
Also she accepted Jim s decision to buy his parents house in a positive way. She was a pretty good partner.
Watching Pam crying in the interview completely destroyed me
@@sr9279 bru jim used his money to buy his house 💀 wether or not pam wanted it, it was jims money lol
Also they had two young children! Of course she doesn’t want big changes right now, she just had another baby
I LOVE pam. She is honestly who I aspire to be, kind, persistent, and loving. She is so sweet and funny, and I just love her character. I can't remember the name of the actress for the life of me, but she did an astounding job
Maybe you would know if you watched the video.
Jenna Fischer
She is simply the most easy-on-eyes, improvisatory, constantly evolving and compassionate character on the show. None of the viewers I know have ever said anything negative about her. The title and contents of the video literally come as a surprise.
She is why i watched the series even though I know Michael Dwight and Jim are funnier Pam is the heart and emotion of the show and Jenna is a great actress!
Pam is just boring, and she purposefully ruined Jim and Karen's relationship.
I feel like the argument "pam held jim back" is short sighted and misogynistic. They had two children together which are equally jims responsibility but pams just expected to deal with it and raise them on her own whilst jim is in philly whilst holding down her own full time job. The reason it was a decision THEY discussed is because it was a decision that would massively affect them BOTH arguably it would affect pam the most. So I just dont see this argument as valid, is she just supposed to drop everyrhing to support Jims dream? She is a person too and has her own life to think about and the lives of both their children. If Jim was unhappy with their decision he should have told her. imo although following your ambition is important once you create a family you have to start thinking as a unit to some extent, Jim is in the wrong here as far as i'm concerned.
Misogynistic? Jim supports her dream to be an artist, but Pam didn’t support him to build a company. A company that was actually working pretty successfully. Now, obviously they didn’t have kids when Pam wanted to do art, but seriously, it’s misogynistic to think a wife should support her husband and Vice versa even when it’s not easy?? That’s a stretch. My real issue with Pam doesn’t start and end there though. While her not supporting him wasn’t a cool move, it was understandable. The big issue is when she told him she did support him but then resent him anyway. The show was brain dead at that point anyway, so it makes sense they did a character assassination instead of just ending the show, but I’m shocked how people will take Pam’s side and say Jim is the bad guy. They both made mistakes, but only one made genuine attempts to resolve the issue.
@@jcltheutuber9146
The issue isn't that Jim went to philly. It's the lack of communication and the assumption that she should just deal with the kids herself (would also point out that they didn't have kids when pam went to art school and he didn't know pams mum would be able to help out when he made the decision).
I didnt say Jim was misogynistic or that its mysogynistic to support your SO.
Misogynistic of viewers to blame those episodes on Pam considering she wasn't the one who went and made a huge life decision that would affect them both without talking to Jim first.
Misogynistic?? 😂😂😂
I completely agree, once you're married and you have more than one child, your decisions don't just affect yourself personally it affects both yourself and your whole family. Those risks can be good or bad so it wasn't bad that this MARRIED couple made a decision together instead of apart and without the consideration of their children
@@jcltheutuber9146 You're comparing it to a time they weren't married and didn't have children and could take all the risk they wanted? No. Not the same in any aspect. Jim was behaving like a dbag and held his prior support against her as an ultimatum. That isn't what good husbands do.
Karen was a rebound and nothing more. Jim treated her badly and she deserved better than him which is exactly what she got marrying someone else.
i listened to the podcast ep where jenna talked about peoples hatred for pam and WOW IS SHE RIGHT as SOON as pam gains a voice, some confidence, so GODDAMN SELF-ESTEEM people turn their backs on her. eventually she stopped thinking of herself the way roy made her feel and began looking through jims eyes, the man who treated her how she deserved to be treated, and people blame her. lets put this to bed ( thats what she said). PAM IS A STRONG WOMEN WHO WAS FINDING HERSELF IN THE FIRST SEASONS AND BELIVES IN HER CAPABILITIES AND PEOPLE SHOULD RESPECT THAT. to turn you back on her just because she is flawed like everyone else in the world shows how flawed YOU are. sorry, i have VERY STRONG FEELINGS ABOUT MY BELOVED PAMMY. thank you for coming to my tedtalk.
But not all criticism against Pam can be waved off due to that, I'm sure that there are some people who dislike her character for those reasons but there are other reasons as to why she's not very likeable.
1) Cheated on Roy with Jim, I mean I don't think I need to explain why cheating's wrong.
2) Got angry at Jim when he got upset about not seeing Cece's play. Sure the guy was out in Philly for a job he loved but it wasn't a selfish endeavour as he really wanted to help his family with it, yet even after pressuring pam and asking her if she could work a camera and her laughing it off, she failed to do so. Oh and she picked up a call during a play, like, pick up the call 2 minutes later after you walk out at the very least smh. I'm not saying that being a single mother for a few months isn't very difficult but it's not like Jim was on vacation lol
3)Pam knew that Athlead took off during that scene with Darryl but didn't say anything, I mean the whole reason she was hesitant was cause she was "signing off to be unhappy for an unknown amount of time" but she ignored that for her own reasons, which is backwards to what she says and what the show says.
4) If I was Karen in that fire-walk scene I'd be pissed! Can you imagine what that must've felt like? At the very least Pam should've talked to Jim about that privately lol.
5) Did not communicate with Jim at all, especially when she cried. Roy and pam's relationship had 0 communication and the moment Jim steps out to Philly she starts to hide things again and Jim has to find out from the mic guy that she cried which is quite a big deal. You could argue to an extent that she did it to make Jim feel better about not being there but as a viewer watching this I really felt like she went back to her old Pam-ways of being meek and letting the world pass her by, this was one of the moments she needed to stand up and voice her true opinions but she didn't.
The only times I actually did like her were when she found her own voice like after the break-up with Roy or in the final episode where she sells her house.
@@thusharanup4906 1.) Jim kissed her unexpectedly and she immediately called off her wedding with Roy and broke up with him afterward. Then when they got back together she even told Roy about kissing Jim.
4.) Sure, Karen had a right to be pissed but Pam had just done the fire walk right before that scene, she was basically high on adrenaline at that point and not exactly in the perfect state of mind.
Your points 2, 3, and 5 just come down to the extremely poor writing of season 9 as the writers wanted to create unneeded drama between Pam and Jim. Alot of those events were out of character for them as you touched on in your fifth criticism.
However, let's not pretend that Pam was completely in the wrong because that just isn't the case. Just because Jim was trying to help his family doesn't change the fact that Pam was forced to become a single parent for months while Jim was off in Philly. She should've recorded the play (and would've if it weren't for the contrived events) but the problem for her was that Jim wasn't and hadn't been there while she had to take care of their kids alone all that time.
She was supporting his dreams by being a single mother to two young kids but she needed Jim home and got mad at him for not being there even though she chose that path. Jim was trying to chase his dreams and provide a better life for his family but made life harder for his family by doing so. Neither of them was completely wrong nor right.
@@wayothefro3249
You're right, nobody was "right or wrong" but only one person got angry and that was Pam, Jim chose to empathise at that moment and back off but Pam charged forward with little to no care for the work that Jim's been doing.
For point 1, Pam herself admits that she kissed Jim back in the bar with Roy, if you look at that scene and think that Pam in no way violated Roy's trust as his fiance multiple times then I think you're nuts lol.
And waiving off points because they were "bad writing" and "out of touch" for the character makes no sense, by that logic any character who's done any number of bad actions could be deemed moral as the bad things they did only amounted to "bad writing" or some other force beyond their control, the writing done for Pam is her character and the character borne of that writing is at a lot of the times in the wrong.
@@thusharanup4906 That's just bad logic. As you said yourself in point 5, Pam regressed her character to her old meek self for seemingly no reason. That's bad writing. However, you can't use that argument whenever a character does bad things *if* they are in character. When Dwight wears a gun around the office, that's in character because it was already established that he has no problems with weapons in the office and we know that when he's in a position of power he gets an inflated ego. When Angela preaches about morals to other characters despite her own heinous actions, that's in character because we know she's a stuck-up person who's always done that. When Pam seemingly doesn't communicate for no reason despite having spent seasons building up her ability to speak her mind (and having her do so up until that point), that's bad writing.
I never said Pam didn't violate Roy's trust but she was still kissed unexpectedly by Jim. She kissed back but she is also the one who stopped the kiss and didn't let things go on with Roy afterward which is something most cheaters wouldn't do. The fact that she also told Roy about it when they got back together despite not having to do so is also a testament to her character. She was in the wrong for kissing Jim back but also did good things through her handling of everything during and after the kiss.
@@wayothefro3249 I disagree, I judge the character on how it is presently written and not on how I assume the character should act, her regressing to a meek personality can't just be ignored by me.
And for your second paragraph, you yourself admitted that Pam was in the wrong for breaking Roy's trust and the fact that she did the decent thing by telling him isn't some "testament to her character", I think it's something that should be expected as the obvious thing to do, if your partner broke off your engagement by kissing someone back would you commend their character? It's expected at the very least.
I mean if you compare her to other characters, she's probably one of the more moral and good people but personally, because of how the show treats her and her actions, I dislike a lot about her.
I love Pam, she's the main reason I watched the show. She's lovable, adorable, relatable, and just all round great. How anyone could hate her is a mystery to me.
She is my fav character- adored her from day one
Pam and Jim are representations of what happens if you drop two pretty normal people onto an island with completely idiotic or crazy people. In other words they are characters that represent the viewer. If you hate Pam or Jim, you hate yourself.
Both have an air of superiority for no reason
or your idiotic and crazy
@@Otto-Webbthe reason is they think they are normal and most people they work with are not .
@@Otto-WebbI remember that was mentioned in the show that Pam thinks she's better than the rest by Meredith (I think?) and that Jim had an air of superiority. I never noticed that(? I mean, Andy, Dwight, Michael, Jan, Ryan, Kelly and Angela had huge egos.
Also I saw a comment in the video that said Pam had narcissistic traits. But the thing is everyone has them, it needs to be something that significantly affects your life or other's lives to be considered Narcissism. People like Jan or Ryan do fit that because they use people, Pam didn't considerated Roy's feelings and I'm not defending her for that since it also made slightly hate her for not just being direct, but it obviously was a mistake and not a behavioral pattern. She has empathy and worries about the people around her, and she's selfish, but I would say like a standard person(?
Sorry for bad grammar I don't speak English very well
@@Otto-Webb You have this impression because they react to other people's crazy things, just like we react to the office
Note: In her audition, they asked Jenna to be as boring as possible.
Jim is not perfect even though the show shoots near that mark to bring an "aaaw" from the audience. But why should pam be perfect? She lies sometimes, which is not good, but who doesn't? She is insecure, who hasn't ever been? She can't decide between risking and stability, who doesn't? (Especially women)
She's one of the most realistic characters.
P.s. Especially women, while looking for a relationship, think about the duality between risking and having stability, either emotional or financial.
you had me until “especially women”.
Agree to disagree, then?
@@asmrtpop2676 female conditioning is a real thing
@@asmrtpop2676 he's not saying only female but preferably mostly women let's be fr
Its true that her audition she was told to be boring as possible, but I think the writers changed the character by season 2. As they did with Michael.
Pam was also written to show the growth of a young adult, not just the gender role. She has relatable growing pains for both genders as well as professional and personal struggles.
i don’t get how people hate pam for being a “liar” considering that every single character in the show lied at some point to someone else. not to mention that jim uprooted their entire life without telling her and even saying how he didn’t take the job when he in fact did. but he doesn’t get any hate for that? they had two children and relatively stable jobs of course she wouldn’t wanna leave especially after her husband lied. AND he bought a house without telling her right after they started dating. michael also consistently lies to his staff and partners the entire show but again no one hates on him for that? pam was the most realistic character on the show. the beach scene was weird i’ll give them that and i can’t help but sympathize with karen for it, but honestly isn’t most of that on jim for playing with karen’s feelings? i mean for god sake he even broke up with Katy in the second season in the worst way ON A BOAT. but pam was in an unhappy engagement where she had no self confidence and was scared to take any risks it’s why she stayed as a receptionist, until she started dating jim. when he confessed she was terrified to lose a friendship with him so she chose the SAFE option. was it the right option? no roy was terrible to her but to her it was the logical choice so she wouldn’t be left with no one so seeing someone she was clearly in love with dating someone has gotta hurt especially since the last time they saw each other was when he confessed his love for her. as someone who was also in a relationship that made me feel like i wasn’t worth much, i relate so much to pam and i don’t get any of the hate she gets meanwhile jim is considered constantly in the right.
yes a completly agree. even after she already broke up with roy you could see how lonely she became. JIm left because he coudnt take it anymore and she was left all alone, which was exactly what she was afraid of the entire time.
Roy was terible and for the entire relationship she was inseciour, sad, unsure, shy and unconfident person.
I dont get how people hate on pam for not being able to make choices and being scared, and just forget that she was in an abusive realtionship for three years, where every single one of her ideas or dreams would be just called stupid.
pam grew a lot as a person and i relate to her a lot.
And we generally understand that all of the other characters are awful people, too. I don't understand why Pam should get a pass just because she's the lead woman. Even Jim is a self-important bully with zero work ethic.
"He bought a house without telling her right after they started dating" - It's right after they started dating, it's not like they were about to be engaged at that time.
PERIOD !!!!!!!
Wait this is random but Pam is a lot like Rachel so why does Rachel get away with it but Pam gets hate
This whole realm of the office fanbase leaves me absolutely flabbergasted every time I see it. I can’t comprehend how you can watch this show and hate pam, but not hate everyone else. I mean, if you’re in that boat, that’s totally fine, have your opinion and I respect that, I just can’t understand it personally. Like you sort of hinted at in this video, almost everyone else in the entire cast commits objectively worse actions, in most cases many times over. To me, the one really bad thing pam does is kiss Jim at the dundies when she’s drunk. At casino night, Jim kisses her so how is that reflective of her character? And then everything after that is just her being a normal person… like people who hate her for lying about office administrator or not wanting Jim to move for athlead (or athleap, whichever it is at first haha), those are such normal understandable human things! Are we gonna hate pam for telling a lie but not hate Dwight for having multiple affairs and constantly degrading others? Just doesn’t compute for me. Pam defense squad, assemble!!! (This is all in lighthearted fun btw) 😊
Yeah how dare a confused insecure young woman have a troubled relationship and so have complicated feelings for her best friend. Shes like mid twenties.... MAYBE. How many people did you date in your twenties? It's hard not to have an overlap. The fact she was confused about Jim instead of just stealing him from Karen. She waited until like three months at the firewalk before she had her aWkward meltdown.
Heck when I was in high-school I knew girls who would go back to the same guy three times and end up married to a college boyfriend.
Elizabeth Lee
Karen also knew that Jim had feelings for Pam and yet she made the choice to stay with him.
Karen took a risk of getting hurt
and it caused her to get burned.
I do hate all of them
The more and more you watch it, the more you notice how shitty they all are in their own ways.
Having said that, i still love the show and every character just as much as i hate them because theyre all pretty great characters in the end. Thats what good characters do, make you really love and/or hate them.
I think its because she is portrayed as a good guy unlike the others.
@@chuckp1506 I think we can all agree that the only true good characters who never did anything wrong were Nate and Hank (rip)
She was the best. She had the most subtle humor in a show that was often overly cartoonish.
Oh man, I kinda love the beach games outburst. It seems to perfectly fit her annoyances and she finally gets the confidence to tell everyone what is bothering her after walking over the coals. Not that cringy at all, mostly sappy sure.
When Pam had to redo her classes in art school she would have had to be away from Jim for a few weeks or months, but she gave that up to work a thankless job just to be with him. When Jim gets the athlead job in another city he is unwilling to give that up and lies about it. They also have CHILDREN! Pam is not only upset about their relationship but how this will affect their children who Pam takes care of in a house Jim bought without asking her.
Also about Roy, she wasn’t holding him back, he just felt that Pam wasn’t worth changing for. I have friends who have been with men like this, who thinks everything is fine and it’s the woman who is making up problems where there aren’t any, when in reality they gaslight, they don’t take responsibility and they don’t take the other persons feelings into consideration. They are adult children who never had any reason to have to grow up.
exactly! i 100% agree with you
Let's not gloss over Pam gaslighting Roy in to thinking she wasnt encouraging an inappropriate relationship with a colleague for years
People taking accountability for their own actions & also people being considerate of others is EXTREMELY rare & doesn’t really exist much anymore. You summarized that beautifully though.
Pam should not have quit art school for a realtionship, most of all when it was just for 3 months, she is just lazy
Pam’s hate-ability stems from the fact that she’s the least animated, and the easiest to relate to on a personal level. People who hate Pam are insecure because they have similar parts of their personality that they’re ashamed of.
She's the most human character, almost everyone else is cartoonish
Id say it's quite the opposite, I can't stand when people have the obvious right choice and bad choice, and then go for the bad choice. I'm not thinking of anything specific here, but that's what Pam is to me, someone who's too meh and dumb to make the right choices, and instead of realizing it's her own fault, she feels like there's nothing she could've done.
It's not that she's the least animated, she's just the least fun, most boring and mediocre human in the whole show. I love Ryan way more, he might be a scumbag, but he isn't boring, and he owns his mistakes and suffers for them. Pam gets bailed out every time she makes bad choices just because she acts like a victim, those are the worst kind of people, even though, on paper, they might be nice.
actually, you're defending her/yourself. People justify her behavior because she sucks like you. You criticizing her would you ALMOST being able to acknowledge your own short-comings and actually WORK to overcome them yourself. But you creatures have no hope. So, you defend bullshit and criticize criticism so that you don't have to do shit about yourself.
Even Christianity is just like this. God committed suicide for me so can I do whatever the f I want with my life and it's cool. It is a teenage MO at best. I don't care what you say; we don't hire people like you to do anything more than file papers or answer phones.
@@radhiadeedou8286 I see myself in Pam in a lot of ways. Not her dating history but her basic nature and she is one of my favourite characters
Totally agreed
I am finally watching The Office for the first time, currently just started season 8. I love Pam! She's in my top 3 favourite characters I had no idea there was any hate for her at all
After listening to Office Ladies podcast, I liked hearing Jenna Fischer's take on the "Pam hate." She feels it is rooted in misogyny; people preferred the shy, weak Pam because she was easy to walk all over. But as her character develops she gains a backbone and is no longer a doormat, and people can tend to hate that especially in women.
I know from experience in my own life, people (family in particular) do NOT take it well when you go from a pushover to someone with healthy boundaries, and I think the Pam hate is the haters projecting that.
yes, it all becomes black and white if you don't find the right answer.
I couldn't figure out exactly why I didn't like Pam once she "got her voice", but I doubt it was misogyny. I like Karen's character. She was fairly assertive and spoken out. I liked Leslie from Parks and Recs. She was a go-getter and ambitious and not afraid to use her voice. Same thing with Elenore from The Good Place all throughout that show. I don't dislike strong female characters and their voices...I just disliked Pam.
@@Buttonmstr then im sorry you're a misogynist :/
@@crimson8076 it’s possible to dislike a character that has some admirable qualities. I like other female characters with the same admirable qualities.
Disliking one woman does not mean that I dislike all women.
Pam “finding her voice” wasn’t the only change that happened to that character over the course of the show. I just didn’t like the other changes or perhaps how she used that voice.
That's the easiest most convenient lazy excuse as to why someone could dislike someone. It's giving yourself an out and putting more blame on others rather than simply admit their are things about that character people will hate that range far beyond their sex. Basically the people the hated Packer must have just been misandry and that's it, it just shows more about them than understanding him etc etc.
Also, for Roy part, pay attention that he got his life on order only when Pam chicken out from their wedding.. And he did everything to get her back.. As soon as they started dating from Phyllis's wedding onwards, he got lazy ass and ignored her completely,AGAIN. She spotted that and as soon as she told him the truth about the kiss with Jim, he flipped.. She saw his true face. I like that episode beacuse it truly presents how many, many wrong relation ships develops in life.. And how people make choices for the wrong reasons (like Roy wanting Pam back just for pure fact to win her back,not to be with her).
Omg you are so racist.
PERIODT
Of the main characters, Pam is probably the least morally problematic, her main sins being flirting while engaged, making interest in an attached guy clear, and lying to get a job. She is also often shown trying to be nice to people in a way most of the other characters never are. The only other generally morally good characters are Jim (endless pranking and flirting with an engaged woman), Oscar (affair with married man), and Stanley (multiple affairs and a general disdain for his wives). Oh, and Toby, but honestly he is sidelined so much I don't really count him as top tier, plus no matter how moral he is, he negates it by being a total doormat.
As for her holding Jim back, well, her reasons are very understandable. When Pam goes to art school, she specifically states now is a good time to do this, before she's married or has kids or even a mortgage. Art school is also only supposed to be 6 weeks, then she comes back to Scranton and Jim, presumably to find work locally. It is in no way a disruption to Jim and Pam's general life trajectory. If Jim had gotten his business opportunity in Season 4, prior to them having serious roots there (no house, no kids, Pam still a receptionist) she probably would have gone with him with no fuss. (Of course then there would be no show, so...) But Jim wants to move his wife and 2 children to a much larger city where they do not have any family or friend support (any parent will tell you that is a BIG thing with 2 young kids), and where it's almost certain Pam will have to take a MUCH less good job at least at first, since she kind of lucked into the one she has, not to mention selling their house and finding a place to live in a much more expensive location. That is a MUCH bigger ask on Jim's part, and I'm not surprised she balks and has problems with the idea, and it's a huge testament to how much she loves him that she eventually agrees.
Its such a paradox on a show like this that over the top characters who do over the top horrible things are beloved, but regular people characters who act like regular people get so much hate. Or really, just the regular woman.
Not to mention the Doyleist (metafiction reason) that the season 8/9 twist was a rehash of plots that were done already and much more impactful. In Season 4 after almost 3 seasons Jim is given a choice between Pam and job. And with all the drama building up to that season. The relationship with Karen, the fight with Roy. It had a lot of build up, it was good tension and it ended in a heartfelt romantic way. Likewise the artschool plot had been hinted out in season one. Drawn out over all those season it took a whole two seasons to unfold, and in the end it had a twist ending too. And because most of this stuff came to ahead in season4 and 5 it was woven into the continuity and played off each other.
Out of no where... a guy plops down a macguffin about a vague sport marketing business (Something that Jim never talked about with a bunch of guys from school we have never even seen on the show. Likewise a boom mike operator we never saw. And its just plopped down like a fart.
Dramatic conflict in a comedy is fine as comedies are usually defined by how they wrap up in the end. But that drama still has to act like drama. It has to be established paid off earned. If you want a twist in the last part of the story... its a bad idea. Because there is no pay off even if you write the best dramatic dialogue, or have a bunch of clever writing. So having a bunch of things thrown on screen we are supposed to have known about... its very weak writing. And since the business is so vague and not important... why should we relate to Jim. We knew how much Art meant to Pam because of her struggles to create art and learn her education. it was a good twist. We know how much Jim adored Pam so it made sense but it was still a good twist.
Maybe if we saw what Jim was doing other then sitting in a cool office with Darryl. Maybe have him do what he was doing at work. His business just didn't seem believable or interesting. And the Boom mike guy was literally hidden until then. I mean it could have been a good twist... but he only was in two episode...and in the second one the guy hits on Pam. And instead of the inevitable revelation of the characters true fellings... we get a flashback. as crass as any flashback episode of the Fresh prince. No one learned or revealed anything... it was excuse for flashbacks.
The lying to get a job is such a hustle though I really respect her for that.. imagine being sick of doing what you do everyday, not wanting to be a menial receptionist again, and seeing an opportunity and just grab it. That took guts and I really respect her for that.. I saw some people were angry that she turned down that other job in Philly, but can these people mot see she didn't wajt to be a receptionist again? Especially to someone as eccentric as Micheal?!
@@juileegokhale3531 exaaaaaaactly. She HATED her job as a receptionist. Always has. And definitely didn't love dealing with Michael. So to do basically exactly that again?? While Jim gets to do his dream job? Why should she have to be miserable to make it easier for him? And yeah I thought it was awesome she got her job like that. She saw an opportunity and went for it and was lucky enough to get it. Ryan just made himself a position too and used Kelly to get it. At least Pam was filling a role, not just making herself someone's boss.
I think Andy is the Office character that deserves hatred if hatred had to be placed 😄
He was insanely annoying from the very beginning.
You're fucked in the head if you think that.
She's a homebreaker and a cheater, if you don't think that's morally problematic then I'm not sure what is. She literally commited fraud, is a delusional hack and always tries to claim moral highground in whatever argument she has. She's hated because she has the most universaly despised traits, most of you people find her appealing because you fucks can relate to the trashcan of a character that is Pam Beesly. The problem isn't even with her being morally corrupt or not, it's the fact that she holds everyone except herself to a higher standard, and she tries to present herself as someone that should be universally liked. It's not only fucking annoying, it's a straight up reason to hate someone. Every person in The Office more or less has a realization about their flaw, some form of it at least, but not Pam. She's one of the characters that fails straight on her face because no one in her demeanor is redeemable and the only reason why so many Office fans eat her shit up is because she romanced the golden boy of the Office, Jim, who's your dime a dozen "too cool to care" pranksters. Give me a fucking break you people will eat every cookie cutter shit people will throw at you.
I read the argument once that in her beach games outburst she said "I called of my wedding for you" and not "because of you" and that it is the same. It is not. "Because of you" means because he made her realize the flaws in her relationship to Roy. "For you" would mean that she expected things from Jim but she didn't. So overall I think people who hate Pam just miss minor details that show that she is not the worst.
exactly
Yeah. What she is saying is "Because of you, I realized that I wasn't happy with Roy." What "For you" implies is "I called off my wedding because I wanted to be with you instead. Which isn't what she says. She even says that she's sad that they aren't even friends anymore. Implying that she just wants friendship with him, even if they never did end up together. Huge difference.
I actually found Pam quite relatable so I found her character growth somewhat inspiring to watch
This just feels extremely unfair. Pam is PERFECTLY written in my opinion. One arc where the fumbled a bit and that's it. All the hate is really doing is holding up a mirror to the people who want her to be the pillar for her man. They obviously thought her character through, a hell of a lot more than Angela, but the difference is, one gives in to the classic damsel formula, while the other is complex and so much more human than TV show puzzle piece. She's not written to fit in with the story, but rather to challenge it's traditional ways. All the Pam haters need some therapy. And tell your mom you love her ffs
Well said!
Fully agree
If you disagree then it must be unfair I guess
@@snoozyq9576 People who can actually read and understand english usually get the impression from the FIRST sentence that I am stating an opinion and not inferring a fact. The second sentence clarifies that pretty well so your illiterate assumption here is just ironic gold.
reminds me of the hate for skylar white from breaking bad. no one is perfect and they do a good job of portraying that in these shows (tho breaking bad is infinitely darker lol)
All of the major mistakes Pam made, Jim was at least equally culpable. It was more his job than Pam's to protect his relationship with Karen, and instead he allowed Pam to get away with saying inappropriate things on the beach. He also chose to stay "friends" with her knowing that there was something there. Jim was an awful partner to Karen because it was his job to put Pam in her place and he didn't do it. And I'd like to see how Pam haters react to their own spouses waiting until after they've had two babies and bought a house to suddenly decide to uproot their life for a new career venture. Jim had years to do something new without it affecting Pam, and he waited until he set roots with Pam to do it. His fault. Pam was rational to 'hold him back', she didnt sign up for that.
I'm not saying you're a misogynist if you hate Pam, but I am saying that you should reconsider some things if you don't *also* hate Jim.
this is an interesting take. I'm not jumping on the hate pam bandwagon, but this swings too far in the other direction. Jim is not great either, but why is 'staying friends' with someone the most horrible thing someone can do? I'm not saying people string people along willingly, or that its a one way track; both parties are responsible, but i would argue Jim's right decision (the decision to set firm boundaries) which he genuinely tried to do, is harder than Pam just not trying to cross the line. And what do you mean about having two kids and a career change? A marriage is about team work, Jim let Pam go when she wanted to make a huge career choice like that. Not to mention he supported her decision to pursue it. If I decided one day that I've had enough, my partner would see my desire to do it, and be the guiding voice. If my partner could not see my passion about a career switch. So what if he had years to switch? Would you switch careers without a savings, house, stable income? How unfair is it to ask someone in their mid 20s, early 30s to make a jump like that? Many people do it, why is it such a reprehensible choice? Of course its unfair to ask the other spouse to support a career switch, but this is a career led by desire. If you cant see that as a spouse, shame on you for putting your needs in front of their inner desires. Stablility and risk taking should be made with empathetical reasoning. Rational to hold him back? What? I am a musician, and if I am stuck at a dead end job, but didnt have the means to rise above it, or havent realized my potential, or the cards werent right, why would I make my choice anytime else? Listen, I am empathetic for people's Pam/Jenna hate, and you are right to think that is driven by misogyny. You are also right to think Jim is not so sparkling as a character himself, made evident by several character flaws. But your criticisms are downright apathetic and blame burdening. There are more apt criticisms of Jim, in the office. These aren't a powerful argument. Putting my aside my personal qualms about your points.
@@kavyeshkaviraj well i believe she didn’t fail art school because we never seen her fail she just said it. she has very good artistic skills. she just didn’t want to tell him cause he told her to come the right way. when she was with roy her only escape was art school and now that she’s with Jim she realized that she didn’t need the escape and she wanted to be with him and when he took that job from Philly she was upset the didn’t want to stay with here as much as she did to him she is only human with human emotions and the moment on the beach she was venting it’s okay if he set boundaries but she’s entitled to her own emotions so i don’t think u have 100% valid points
Exactly. Not only did he uproot their lives with two kids (leaving her to raise them alone while he worked in a different state), he also drained their savings to invest in the company without asking her. Yikes
@@autumnaltumn Draining money from their savings account without asking her is something I definitely Jim was wrong in doing, however the uprooting of their lives I feel would have been bad even if he had not done it. I am speculating now but I feel like he stayed at some point start to resent her because he did not take the take the opportunity to try something he has always wanted to do. I am not saying he was right in doing so but I feel like anyway they were bound to go through a rough patch.
Jim was a bad boyfriend to both Katie and Karen
Pam is one of my favorite characters. I had no fucking idea people hated her
I agree that the whole “i like pam when she keeps quiet and doesn’t stand up for herself, but when she’s not like that anymore i hate her!!” thing totally reeks of misogyny. i also wanna point out though that the criticism of the season 9 arc seems misogynistic to me as well. i’ll explain briefly:
the main criticism is that she’s keeping jim from the life that he wants. but why are his dreams more important than hers? she makes it very clear that she is happy with her life. her friends and family are close and she likes her job. she is comfortable and enjoying life. again, why are jim’s desires MORE important?
not to mention the fact that he, against her will, forces her into a position where she is essentially the full time parent and constantly exhausted and unhappy. despite this, she puts on a happy face for jim.
imagine if instead, pam was the one who wanted to pull jim away from scranton. i guarantee if that was the situation, these fans would hate her for that too.
as you mentioned, pretty much every character in the show is awful in some way. so many characters have affairs, sexually harass people, are racist/sexist, etc. but somehow pam is the most hated person in the show. interesting... :|
yes!! this
NO. you're 100% off base. Jim fully supported her dreams to got to art school, away in New York. When Jim wants to try something, she doesn't support him.
@@Phoenix-pm2qr art school & the philly job were EXTREMELY different situations and if you watched the show you should understand. I am NOT “off base.”
@@Phoenix-pm2qr they didn’t have kids then, weren’t married, didn’t live together… completely different
@@Phoenix-pm2qr Pam went to art school because she was together with Jim, who totally supported her decisions, when before she couldn't because Roy always belittled her work and never believed in her.
She was not happy in her relationship with Roy so she wanted to pursue her talent believing that it will make her happy.
When she finally did got a chance to go to art school, she realized that it wasn't for her and then she came back because she finally was with someone that made her happy and came back.
honestly i used to hate her character, but now that im rewatching i honestly think she's really a great character. She supported Jim with his dream even though he jumped into it without her, (after agreeing that he wouldn't/didn't want to) and she ended up moving her family to Houston for his dream. Meanwhile Jim was being pretty selfish and unsupportive of her and his family. He said he was doing his dream job for them but it was honestly for him, no i can't blame him... who doesn't want to have a dream job? But i just feel he was a bit of a jerk to her when she was his biggest support. She balanced raising kids, her job, and her artistic ambitions without much support from him while he was in Philly. Yes, she has flaws but for the most part she's a strong woman that knows what she wants and worked very hard for it, even if it means in the end sacrificing her comfort and her dreams for Jim's. Also in points you were making where she is being strong and assertive, you called her emotional and crazy.
If anything that sacrifice is what made pam grow.
She was NEVER willing to sacrifice comformity before. It's having a family what finally made her grow. Jim however always procrastinated his ambition to work on something he was more qualified for. He made His sacrifice first when he decided to stay with her for so long. If Jim was that selfish, he would have taken the corporative position. His ideal life was always reaching that ambition, but having Pam with him to do so would make it worth. Otherwise it would be an life goal fulfiled with no heart.
When did she work hard?
@@MirandaRiddleyou must not have two very young children, a full time job and no one to help you.
@@denisehead6680She had her mother that helped her, they had a baby sitter and she had also Jim's help. Maybe she should have asked his help more often.
@@denisehead6680 Right. Like Jim could have partially lived in Philly when starting the company and stayed focused on his job if Pam wasn't there for the kids. They both worked hard for their family.
I finished watching the show a few days ago and just found out that some people hate Pam.... WHAT? How? She's like the best person in the entire show and she has great development too
1) Cheated on Roy with Jim, I mean I don't think I need to explain why cheating's wrong.
2) Got angry at Jim when he got upset about not seeing Cece's play. Sure the guy was out in Philly for a job he loved but it wasn't a selfish endeavour as he really wanted to help his family with it, yet even after pressuring pam and asking her if she could work a camera and her laughing it off, she failed to do so. Oh and she picked up a call during a play, like, pick up the call 2 minutes later after you walk out at the very least smh. I'm not saying that being a single mother for a few months isn't very difficult but it's not like Jim was on vacation lol
3)Pam knew that Athlead took off during that scene with Darryl but didn't say anything, I mean the whole reason she was hesitant was cause she was "signing off to be unhappy for an unknown amount of time" but she ignored that for her own reasons, which is backwards to what she says and what the show says.
4) If I was Karen in that fire-walk scene I'd be pissed! Can you imagine what that must've felt like? At the very least Pam should've talked to Jim about that privately lol.
5) Did not communicate with Jim at all, especially when she cried. Roy and pam's relationship had 0 communication and the moment Jim steps out to Philly she starts to hide things again and Jim has to find out from the mic guy that she cried which is quite a big deal. You could argue to an extent that she did it to make Jim feel better about not being there but as a viewer watching this I really felt like she went back to her old Pam-ways of being meek and letting the world pass her by, this was one of the moments she needed to stand up and voice her true opinions but she didn't.
The only times I actually did like her were when she found her own voice like after the break-up with Roy or in the final episode where she sells her house.
Sure she's human and compared to the other characters she is moral but these things can't just be fully ignored lol
I didn't hate Pam. She had flaws like other characters. I personally did enjoy her less as the show went on. Never hated, though. The thing Jenna said about it being a misogyny thing is such a disingenuous copout, however. That in itself is so stupid that I now like her less.
My favorite comedic moment from Pam is when she finds out Michael is dating her mother.
She was so into it when she thought he was dating some other coworker's mother. Ohh how the turn tables...
Yes! I love how, when she's still enthusiastic about the idea of Michael seeing someone, she asks "Who?" a couple of times in a perky tone -- then, after the penny has dropped, she asks it again, only in a shocked, wounded way, dreading the answer and yet needing to know.
Never understood why she was so upset.
@@billp4 LOL
She was physically disgusting though when angry
I really relate to Pam, I spent 10 years being unhappy with someone a lot like Roy and finally decided to leave and pursue a happier life. I finally found my Jim. A couple bones I need to pick with people who hate on Pam:
Jim decided to start at a new startup company and invest without being fully honest with her. It was in another city and they had two young children. If I were her, I wouldn’t have been totally on board with it at first either.
Now when it comes to Karen, she was absolutely a rebound. And that is shown by Jim being very wishy-washy throughout their relationship. (Yes I listen to the office ladies podcast lol) I think Jim had no business entering another relationship because he clearly wasn’t ready for it. He still loved Pam and that relationship with Karen would never worked with a start like that.
I might be biased, but I love Jam!
I didn't know people hated her until I finished the show. Like you said near the end, everyone in this show is a horroble human, very annoying or very incompetent.
Singling out one character for it and not having that character be Michael who did the worst things out of all of them and possibly ruined the future of like 20 children in one shot is very unfair
Craig Robinson was fine.
The arc of Jim pursuing
his business always made me sympathise with Pam because OFF CAMERA she is taking care of two toddlers while juggling a full-time job
Seeing this video honestly really surprised me. To me Pam always was the one character i could identify the most with. She just seemed so real
She’s literally my favorite character she’s so endearing and fun and makes the people around her better. I can’t believe people hate her.
"Makes the people around her better" - Right. That's why she forcefully broke Jim and Karen's relationship. Or wait, that's why she wanted to have a new chair, instead of getting a new copier that would benefit EVERYONE in the office, not just her. She is a narcissistic self-centered liar. Not to mention she is very jealous of Jim and that's mostly because of her own insecurities, because it is very well established that Jim would only love her.
@@sadiqabbaszade4789 1) She didn’t break up Jim and Karen. She had her outburst on the beach expressing how she missed their friendship, and then she was content with Jim doing whatever he wanted after that. It was Jim who broke up with Karen for her. 2) Um, the chairs would have been for everyone. Not just her. Everyone would have been benefitted, so I don’t quite understand your argument. Also, plenty of other people wanted new chairs as well. It makes no sense just to single her out. 3) In an office with an inept and offensive boss and rude and uncaring coworkers, idk how you can single her out as a narcissist. So many other characters have traits far worse than her minor insecurities.
@@sadiqabbaszade4789 WHAT 😂.
@@sadiqabbaszade4789 her wanting something for herself makes her a narc??? LMAO
@@spacebar9733 yes
I’m surprised you didn’t roast Jim for essentially bullying Dwight
get over it I think dwight himself was Ok with that..so find another ways to waste others time
@@hoseinsharif4203 just stating a fact
@@austinwilwayco what you call fact is just sth that you found on youtube.they all did awful things and you know it
na na na what you mean lol dwight’s worse than Jim fasho
Idk man Dwight was ahole to Jim and Jim was a ahole to Dwight so...
I think the reason why she’s hated is she’s probably the most relatable. People see what they hate or themselves in Pam. It’s painful to watch her. They see Jim and that’s how they like to see themselves. When they see Pam they see someone unhappy about their decisions who does nothing to remedy her situation. Who puts things off, never takes any chances because she’s comfortable to a certain degree. But I also think she might be the one character that has the most meaningful growth, the one that had to work on themselves the most
That makes sense. But wouldnt that make people like characters more?
I might not make sense but most of the time people like relatble characters right? So i really wonder why they hate pam.
@@crow5326 people hate Ted Mosby too so, i don t know its because they show the worst defaults of people and relatable ones
I don't know, to me it was Andy the one who had to work on himself the most. he even started as one of the most justifiably hated characters to one of the most beloved. and part of that came because the character accepted his pasts mistakes and tried to grow out of them. Even helping Michael not becoming a lover to cheater because he was cheated once. Pam hate doesn't seem to come because of her actions, but because of her "too good to be real " personality. And is part of her flaws. since she isn't a saint., but does her best to pretend she's miss nice girl, and often pisses off her coworkers when she tries too hard
So she’s The Office’s Shinji Ikari? Damn, never thought of that...
Nope, I’m a flawed person but I’m not nearly as whiny, annoyingly insecure or accountability lacking as she is. Y’all should just accept that not everyone loves the dream girl of the office
I love Pam! I see myself in her and I still see misogyny in people's hate towards her.
@@firelordkushroll ?
1) Cheated on Roy with Jim, I mean I don't think I need to explain why cheating's wrong.
2) Got angry at Jim when he got upset about not seeing Cece's play. Sure the guy was out in Philly for a job he loved but it wasn't a selfish endeavour as he really wanted to help his family with it, yet even after pressuring pam and asking her if she could work a camera and her laughing it off, she failed to do so. Oh and she picked up a call during a play, like, pick up the call 2 minutes later after you walk out at the very least smh. I'm not saying that being a single mother for a few months isn't very difficult but it's not like Jim was on vacation lol
3)Pam knew that Athlead took off during that scene with Darryl but didn't say anything, I mean the whole reason she was hesitant was cause she was "signing off to be unhappy for an unknown amount of time" but she ignored that for her own reasons, which is backwards to what she says and what the show says
.
4) If I was Karen in that fire-walk scene I'd be pissed! Can you imagine what that must've felt like? At the very least Pam should've talked to Jim about that privately lol.
5) Did not communicate with Jim at all, especially when she cried. Roy and pam's relationship had 0 communication and the moment Jim steps out to Philly she starts to hide things again and Jim has to find out from the mic guy that she cried which is quite a big deal. You could argue to an extent that she did it to make Jim feel better about not being there but as a viewer watching this I really felt like she went back to her old Pam-ways of being meek and letting the world pass her by, this was one of the moments she needed to stand up and voice her true opinions but she didn't.
The only times I actually did like her were when she found her own voice like after the break-up with Roy or in the final episode where she sells her house.
The only times that Pam's likeable is when she decides to stand up for herself, breaking up with Roy, selling the house, taking the dive to go to art school; all those are great things for her. But she doesn't progress beyond that until the very last episode and I just find that disappointing, especially in the fifth point I said, old pam would've said nothing and went about her day but I really expected new and stronger pam to do something about that.
Yeah...hating cheaters isn't misogyny, being a cheater apologist is being accepting of emotional abuse though. She's not a great person and anyone who broad brushes people with valid criticisms of her character probably has a lacking character themselves. Pretty toxic.
Interpreting people's criticisms as misogyny is you projecting your own biases onto Pam.
@@basedmongoloid2278 especially when Angela was the most amoral character on the show and people don't seem to care about her
pam has emotional responses to things that are important to her. we all have jokes that we think are hilarious that don't land great. people need to look at both sides of the story. i see where they come from with the points, and some are correct. but a lot of the points on why pam 'sucks' have flaws.
the kiss at the dundies was more than likely an accident, as she kissed michael on the cheek before she went to hug jim. but the fact that jim was in love with her made him overthink everything, and some of the audience think it meant more than a drunken kiss out of sympathy.
casino night; that was all jim. she stood there and said "i can't" as he confessed his love to her.
obviously when jim comes back, pam's excited and is going to hug him. they were best friends, for at least several years before the doc came in, and you see that the episode they talk on the phone. they have a friendly, joking convo after months of no talking. and to add to pam's side, she didn't know jim and karen were dating when he walked in there for the first time since casino night.
beach games was a totally honest thing. it was a little embarrassing, but you can't keep everything inside, especially something like that. and to be fair, her main point was that she missed their friendship. the line about how she broke off her wedding because of jim was a little strange, but it definitely brought the entire thing into perspective about how she missed that friendship.
jim asked pam out. it was spur of the moment, and totally not pam's fault at all. she didn't know what had happened in new york, with the job nor with karen.
with athleap/athlead; they had two young kids, so she had a massive right to say no. after a second discussion, she was ok with jim going to philly BECAUSE she thought he was still keeping something from her. and obviously, when you're at home with no partner and have two young kids, it's tough as hell. pam has a right to get mad that jim's not there, because they did originally agree that he wouldn't do it, or when she did agree, that he'd do it from scranton.
brian's a complex plot point. if you know someone who is filming your entire life, the intimate moments and the terrible ones, you're gonna become close friends, if not like family. if you see someone you know crying, you're obviously going to help comfort them; it's human natural.
lunch with jim, brian and supposedly alissa probably wasn't the smartest move on pam's part, but you can see that jim and pam were comfortable with brian, and they were friends off camera.
it's a classic crush story too; it literally has the same plotline that jim and pam have at the start of the series. brian's in love with one of his friends that he works with that is married but is having relationship problems. jim would comfort pam every single gd day at work about roy and how much she was trapped in that relationship. it's the same thing, just pam doesn't like him.
but anyway, i think i covered every point you make in this. if you read this monstrosity, thank you.
...VERY well said, Mate🙌🙌🙌🙌
You had me at "it's human natural" XD
Because she acts quite often hypocritical and judgemental. She looks down on others with Jim when she also has flaws herself. She tries to gossip about Dwight and Angela in the early on as a "secret office romance", when Phyllis confronts her, she shuts the topic off. Looks down own "dorky people", but feels offended when she herself is a dork for people like Danny.
The stuff she does when Jim is with Karen is quite unethical and manipulative. We see a similar situation with Erin and Andy when Andy is with Jessica, but at least Erin is honest and actually tries to move on by going to Florida.
The dishonesty of Pam is quite annoying but that is something she has in common with Jim. The way Jim and Pam act is like teenagers with all those obvious lies. They are okay with Stanley cheating on her wife, but the moment when they think Michael may be cheated on suddenly they are intrusive and the "private life boundaries" are forgotten.
She appears to one of the good ones, but she is not a geniunely good person like Holly or Karen. She only has empathy towards people she is close to.
I think overall you feel that Pam is not really a good person, but more like a mean girl with confidence issues. She is quite and shy, you kind of expect her to be kind, so as an audience it is surprising that she is much more cynical and egoistical than she appears to be.
At times I hate all the characters yet I love them as well. That’s the beauty of the Office. With that my least favorite regular character has always been Andy Bernard, he was brought in to hate in season 3, he moves in on Angela in seasons 4 and 5, has a toxic relationship with Erin, and cumulates the show with his 3 month cruise and vindictive nature toward David Wallace and the other employees.
I liked Andy for a brief period when he and Erin first got together, after that it was all downhill, also I agree I hate basically everyone at some point in the show
I think the writers did a good job of making andy a likable character after his initial run and when he first becomes regional manager. But they just completely sabotaged his character in the last season
@@vinnye930 yeah Erin and Andy ruined his character. It should have either been more awkward or less. Like it wasn't a big deal Andy was a big loser and in his forties and incompetent in romance and Erin was naive and 20. The only episode that was believable or interesting was that episode where Erin has a panic attack when she finds out her 40 year old boyfriend might have had a relationship. That was so stupid and naive and ovrr the top it was funny again. Mostly it played out like Sean Connery dating Catharine Zeta Jone dating in that movie, gross and out of touch. To pretend that the age gap wasn't the primary obstacle in that relationship.
For a good version of this... look at Bojack Horseman. Not normally funnier then the office. Mr Peanutbutter and Pickles had a believable May December Romance and I was upset they didn't get together. And they actively cheated on each other...without consent and Weirdly later with consent. Because it addressed the actual concerns.
Like couldn't they actually write it like it would have been based on their characters.
@@elizabethlee2136 wait wtf? Erin was literally old enough to be Andy's daughter?
@@shady_the_one Look I try not to judge. There are not only good age gap relationships, but great depictions of them. April and Andy from Parks and Rec. It has to be a good relationship. If not its just disgusting. I tend to agree with you and it really lost my respect for Andy Bernard. Whyh was he being not only a loser now, but a creep.
But in successful age gap relationships both parties need to be mature. Especially the younger of the pair. And both were not. Its only more obvious and gross with Erin because she's so much younger and even more naive. Its not likely if you are not mature yourself you will be in any successful relationship and that ruined Andy for me that he thinks it would be a good idea. Or that he wouldn't be trying to find someone who admires him for himself and not because he's a mediocre adult instead of a teenager. I didn't like Andy after he went after Erin. Like I would have respected him more for being attracted to him then dumping her. At least that would be believable and cringey.
I just fricking love Pam. She started being a voiceless person with a shy personality, but with time she grows so much. She's the only woman Dwight calls a friend, because she has ever been by his side. Roy just get a better life because of the horrible time they had together. She was always by Michael side too, even when nobody believe in him, like when he opens the MSPC. She became an important and necessary character for the others. And, come on guys, that part Jim - pam - Karen, AS IF SHE WAS FORCIN HIM TO DO ANYTHING. You only do what you want, so it's a problem for Jim too.
Sinto sua paixão através da tela kkkkk
She was a cheater, if you are fine by it lmfao IDK what to say
She was good when she was voiceless and a bit attractive. Later she became a disaster
Besides Erin, I always though Pam had the best morality in the show, but not in a way that made her unrealistic, she had a very realistic good quality to her while still having her flaws
Erin did not have good morality she was a pretty trash person.
The "problem" with Pam begins with the fact that she is the only female lead in the main cast (in other words, she is one of the four main characters of the office). Although not a problem in and of itself, I believe it became a problem in later seasons as they basically put many different "types" of women into the Pam Beesly character. One thing I really didn't like about her in later seasons, which I've come to understand better as I get older, is when she doesn't support Jim with his business idea. When I got older, though, I found out that MOST women don't 100% support their husband/boyfriend's business ventures. Why? Because there is risk. And women hate risk. Moreso when it is monetary or a deep time sink.
Basically, Pam resembled mostly positive female traits in the beginning of the show and then displayed quite a few negative female (or human) traits in the later half of the show. I always despised her "growth" to office administrator. I love her character, HATE the execution of that idea. Pam is literally lying her way towards the top while creating a position for herself to leech off the company (as her work as "admin" is not necessary in the slightest). Absolutely putrid. Still love the character. Just don't like the second half of The Office.
Incidentally, fellas, I think you will find that quite a few men are "held back" by their girlfriend/wife. Don't let that be you. It wasn't till I got older that I heard all of the stories (and saw them happening in real time) of women holding back the men around me. One of the weirdest things I experienced over time.
Good points
I never thought she had a lot of hate, she is my favourite character, I liked her simple but memorable personality
"memorable personality "
lmao..
LOOOOOOOOOOOL
lol
Jim could make out with a cardboard cutout and nothing would change.
The people who say they hate pam basically are saying they hate the whole premise of the show she's literally an integral part of the show she's the "normal" one her reactions to the actions of weird people around her is exactly what's funny about the show it's a mockumentary if pam doesn't exist in the show the whole concept of mocking will be ruined
@@whitenoise8619chill
I imagine the root of people's hatred for her is that they view everyone other than Jim and Pam as not real people, just characters with one specific quirk. Pam and Jim are the only real people, so any little flaw gets maximized in their eyes.
Exactly!
Obviously people like Andy and Dwight are more annoying and even psychopathic. But nobody sees them as real people.
Pam and Jim do come across like real people, but they are still pretty terrible.
It's because they're boring. Not that deep.
Exactly. It's pointless to compare Pam to obviously unlikeable characters who are clearly written to be disliked. Angela is overtly mean and judgemental, Packer is a crude, grotesque bully, Jan is a highly erratic narcissist, Oscar is a smartypants know-it-all who thinks himself above the commonfolk etc.
Pam/Jim are presented as good/sane/normal people and the moral anchor of the show, so any immoral behaviour is seen in that context. Creed getting that woman fired to save himself and then stealing the money from her card is just a gag because Creed is an insane hobo wearing a business suit, but if Pam or Jim did the same thing, in moral terms it would be seen in the same way as somebody doing it in the real world.
@@NotQuiteFirst In the original Tim and Dawn were supposed to represent the viewer, as regular ordinary people stuck workng in an office with terrible co-workers. The US version expanded on this. Jim and Pam are supposed to be relatable and everyone else represents a different kind of annoying co-worker. Only Jim and Pam ever offer moral judgments (the rest are just busy being self-centredly awful) which is probably why they get the most moral criticism from the viewers.
True that
Pam is the most human and relatable character on the show. She grew from a people pleaser who didn't know how to properly advocate for what she needed to someone who was kind of bad at doing that once she tried. To someone who was late in the game as a person who knew how to express herself.
Pam’s campfire outburst is genuinely my favorite character moment for her
“The series presents us with a snapshot of humanity. It’s messed up, broken, bored, flamboyant, in anguish, in love, working, relaxing to comment on everyday life” is the best way i would’ve described The Office and why I think in its own way, is what makes it genius.
I adore Pam! She is the most realistic character by far.
Creed: *is unashamed of his plethora of crimes and disregard for social standards
Fans: "lmao love him such a fun goofy guy"
Pam: *has very relatable and human flaws, sometimes resulting in a struggle between her own needs and her desire to do right by others in which she makes a choice she later regrets
Fans: "FKN BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII-"
Yea because people like people who are straight up and own their shit. Pam is just as flawed but hides behind that meek exterior
Bc he doesn’t try to hide that he’s a bad person. She’s given so much screen time and is so boring that the most interesting thing about her is the relationship drama she’s in
Because Pam is a phoney and hides behind her sweet girl act. Also if you have common sense you’ll know that creed and Dwight were unrealistic characters while Pam was portrayed as one.
Yes exactly!😂 I mean c’mon, Angela hid from Dwight that her kid was his for like 2 years, she cheated profusely, deliberately tried to get people fired, and even Oscar deported! But let’s focus hate on Pam!🤷🏻♀️😂 I agree with most, it’s because she’s very real compared to other characters. And I think hating Pam is telling of how some people view women and their actions in real life, precisely because she was so real.
I mean, Kelly faked a pregnancy to get a date ffs!😂
@@snoozyq9576 pam wasn't 'just as flawed'💀💀
She's great and cause she feels like a real person. I've worked with girls that have a lot of similarities with Pam. Characteristics that are very cool.
Subtle, dry humor. Little in-jokes. Confusion on how to handle office politics when people start becoming toxic...
She's a romantic and holds out for love.
That is also what I think Jon kracinski saw in her that made him fight for what her character stood for and likely what he wrote to her at the end when they shared a private note that made her cry.
Here's to Pam and the lovely ladies like her that brighten the offices without fanfare or wild theatrics, just good, hard-working people finding a way to get along.
I love the character development of Pam. A lot of the other characters have the opposite and we’re dumbed down