Two years ago, prior to buying my used Arctic Fox 22g, I hired an inspector. His report included his surprise/concern not finding an RVIA seal. My research revealed it’s a “pay to play” certification and the other details you shared in this video. I was not at all worried about the “missing” seal and I’m satisfied with the build quality of my Arctic Fox. Thanks for the info!
Excellent summary. We see so many DIY RVers make modifications that are not compliant with NFPA 1192, NFPA 70, ANSI/RVIA LV, etc. These advisory, consensus standards reflect best practices to prevent life and safety issues. DIYers sacrificing safety makes no sense. RV inspectors should always conclude with a determination if the RV remains RVIA seal compliant. RVIA sticker or not, stay safe. Thanks for taking on this topic.
Here is the thing about the RVIA. In order to join, you have to be an already established manufacturer with a manufacturing facility in full operation. So, you essentially have to get your business started and running pretty well with no seals. My opinion is it was a way for the existing manufacturers at some point in time to prevent competition from entering the industry. And that results in poor choice for the consumer, especially as there is consolidation in the industry.
Sounds like this could be grounds for a antitrust lawsuit. Unfortunately though as slow as Government moves it's going to be at least a decade before we see such a challenge
Just an FYI: We have a 24yo motorhome and it has a Silver Seal. Not sure if things have changed in 24 years, probably has, but we definitely have a silver seal on our Bend, Oregon built coach.
That's an overgeneralization. I am a member of a couple of organizations that advocate for me. I would not call it bribery under any circumstance. The best way to blunt the effect of the lobbying groups would be to hire more congressional staff so that they can do the research that regulations require instead of relying on lobbying groups to do that research for them.
Hey, I was out camping and finally was able to watch this video. Thank you for explaining this RVIA tag thing, so much appreciated. Also, your videos are getting REALLY GOOD. I tell all my camper friends to subscribe.
The exclusion of RV’s from lemon laws is shameful. Fixing this would be one area of increased regulation that I would think many consumers would appreciate.
That's for another highly informative video. I stumbled into that realization when reviewing my invoice for our camper. In many ways, the RVIA is just like other standards organizations, including ISO, ASTM, and the Joint Commission. If you're familiar with how those work, then you understand why the RVIA is not that unusual. When I was in manufacturing, the big deal was ISO. All ISO9000 did was confirm that you documented your processes and that they were generally best practice methods. The joke was you could build a concrete canoe and still be ISO9000 compliant.
At least my 40 year old trailer has that sticker. I’ve run into the ten year old rule, but never a sticker inspection. I’ve thought about replacing the galvanized metal skin because I think it’s hard to clean, and it’s 40 years old, but I guess I would have to cut it off and glue it on the new walls. People used to camp in home built trailers all the time and it must have made the lobbyists super mad
No, there is a good reason for it. But as Jason explains, the organization behind it is not necessarily looking out for the consumer. It's a bit conflicted.
RVIA is only to make money for the association. There is no one making sure each unit is built to standard. We had issues with our rig from the getgo. Luckily a service manager at a different dealership went over the rig when we came in with a list of issues and he told use he found 9 issues that were not built or installed in accordance with standards including 3 nails put through water and LP lines. The second dealer completed all issues under warranty. He even tried to get the unit replaced by the OEM, which only failed but they tried to deny most of the repairs. Question now have the RVIA inspectors moved on to Boeing????????
This is really interesting. Checking into it, RVIA is essentially a trade organization used for standardization, lobbying, and safety. I can see why customer service and longevity are left to individual manufacturers since that is outside of their scope. Their site also says the RVTI Certification is the ONLY industry recognized RV tech certification. Does this mean manufacturers and vendors can void your warranty if a tech with any other cert works on your stuff? This could be important to know. I've got an '83 Newman 5th and have never been rejected from a campground. It has a molded plastic RVIA tag screwed right next to the door. I just send pics and a copy of the latest inspection. We have an inspection done to ensure safety and to make sure we are on top of maintenance.
In over 10 years of RVing, I've never met an RVIA certified anything. I guess they don't recognize NRVTA as certified. Makes it easy to void warranties or refuse to do a repair under warranty.
I can see both sides of this argument. On the one hand, just let people do what they want to build their own camper. However, when an amateur-built RV catches fire and it spreads to the others around it, that becomes a problem. I can see where an RV park's insurance company wants to mitigate any risk of having to pay on a claim and this is one way to do it. My RV is about to hit 10 years of age but is garaged and looks brand new. If a park insists on turning me away I will spend my money elsewhere. On the Oregon coast I tried to make a reservation in my 21' Class C and was told that Class Cs had to be at least 25' to stay there. This makes zero sense so I suspect they were just after bigger rigs to charge more money. I stayed at the adjacent park and was happier. My RV was somewhat custom built by a manufacturer and I'm not even sure if I have an RVIA sticker on it. That being said, I drove it for 8 years with a coach battery compartment that had two 6V AGM batteries in series, charging all the time with no venting on that compartment. I installed venting myself when I realized that was wrong and dangerous.
As much as I hate RIVA, at least now they are offering inspections and certification stickers on tiny homes and conversions. This was not true when we built our skoolie or we would have done it, I know I tried. And when we are done with buslife and I have the funds I plan to convert something else and you’d better believe I am getting it certified! Will make life much easier.
My new travel trailer has an RVIA Sticker and a design defect in the freshwater tank where 1/3 of the water cannot be used, or even drained from the tank. I’m still in back and forth with the manufacturer as to whether or not the warranty applies. My question: is it possible to complain to the RVIA if this is a case of not meeting a standard, and will the RVIA do anything as a result of a consumer complaint? Good video. Thanks!
OK RV miles I appreciate you explaining what our VA means but you didn’t answer the question can campgrounds. Keep you out because they don’t have that sticker., I have Earth Romer and I don’t have that sticker
Well technically, I would suspect that being Private Property, the business could make any rule they want. Like denying service to Haitians from Springfield.
They can deny you for any reason they want. As I stated, it’s usually either insurance reasons or to keep what they consider to be junkers out. Somebody that throws a couch in the back of a school bus types.
So if they are protecting you in these new RV's, why are we having such trouble now with frame failures. To top this off why are the manufactures allowed to deny that it even happens?? These frame failures are bad enough that rigs are declared JUNK at very young ages after sale. If you are paying for this sticker then it needs to be checking whats going on in the industry especially now since the frame failures have become more and more noted on rigs built from after the pandemic years. If the RVIA wants to lobby for the protection of the manufacturers, let the manufacturers PAY for the stickers and not the RV buyers.
Actually they are Boeing inspectors who moonlight as RV inspectors when on vacation. Basically the companies self inspect and, having having worked somewhere which pulled this, clean up their act prior to the inspectors arriving. The company I worked at always knew 2 weeks in advance when inspections were scheduled, who the inspectors were and made sure everything was perfect when the inspectors arrived.
I don't really care about the RVIA seal (but I fully understand what people 'think' it means). What I REALLY want to see are LEMON LAWS get put in place for RVs. The RV industry is plagued with junk-manufacturing and lazy builds with most new RVs being sold having to live their first season out-of-commission as the corrupt RV dealer fights with the greedy RV manufacturer as to who is going to handle all the 'warranty work' that is found during the first shakedown trip people take with their new RV (if they even know what to look for, that is). I realize that RV lemon laws would totally bankrupt Thor, but it's absolutely needed. RVs aren't cheap.
Just imagine if RVIA did not exist. It might take a little while, but we have phenomenal RVs because all the junk RV manufactures would go out of business.
The RVIA seal isn't worth the foil it's printed on. I bought a brand new rpod -with the seal- and it had failures in almost every part of the rig. Electrical, plumbing, frame, body, windows, floor, propane. You name it. RVIA is meaningless. Also any forest river product is trash.
Anyone who's ever done any work on an RV "behind the panels" knows that these things are built like absolute garbage. Shoddy plumbing work, terrible wiring, no color coding at all, leaks galore. I've had both class C's and fifth wheels from different manufacturers. It doesn't make any difference. They're all garbage, no pride of workmanship whatsoever. I feel sorry for people who don't have any mechanical inclination, having solely to rely on the monkeys at RV repair shops. These "techs" are no better than the clowns who build them.
💯 u nailed it! @The-Bankster Quality has gone to 💩. It's super sad. And anyone can be hired as an 'rv tech' with zero training or schooling, winging-it on the job learning. Im on my 4th RV, so yeah u gotta be handy cause the monkeys just f* up more in the process of fixing. 😬🙄. And if u get an RV with no problems, I would say go out n buy a lotto ticket u got a horse shoe up your butt! 😂🍻
@@richmanwisco You should probably learn to read and comprehend before commenting. Your rig may be a good value (I said NOTHING about value whatsoever) but it's still built like a piece of trash. I've full timed for almost 5 years now, so I'm pretty sure RVs are for me, fool.
@@richmanwisco Pretty sure they're for me, since I've lived in one full time for almost 5 years now. Glad you find your rig a good value. Pull off a panel and see what you think about craftsmanship, which was the whole point of my post. I said NOTHING about value. Learn to read and comprehend, fool.
@@richmanwisco Did I mention "value" anywhere in my post? If they're not for me, I'm in a world of trouble, because I've been in the game for 30+ years and have full timed for the last 5. Ever done any work to your RV yourself? No? Didn't think so.
The RVIA is a useless organization that does nothing for RV owners. RVIA standards are useless as there is no quality standard to back up any specification.
Two years ago, prior to buying my used Arctic Fox 22g, I hired an inspector. His report included his surprise/concern not finding an RVIA seal. My research revealed it’s a “pay to play” certification and the other details you shared in this video. I was not at all worried about the “missing” seal and I’m satisfied with the build quality of my Arctic Fox. Thanks for the info!
I know of no better independent, fact-driven, balanced reporting on the RV industry than RV Miles. Thank you.
Billions of dollars are spent to buy RVs. Its a shame that there isn't a lobbying firm for RV consumers.
Let's get one going for traditional homeowners and then we can talk about RV consumers.
Excellent summary. We see so many DIY RVers make modifications that are not compliant with NFPA 1192, NFPA 70, ANSI/RVIA LV, etc. These advisory, consensus standards reflect best practices to prevent life and safety issues. DIYers sacrificing safety makes no sense. RV inspectors should always conclude with a determination if the RV remains RVIA seal compliant. RVIA sticker or not, stay safe. Thanks for taking on this topic.
Here is the thing about the RVIA. In order to join, you have to be an already established manufacturer with a manufacturing facility in full operation. So, you essentially have to get your business started and running pretty well with no seals. My opinion is it was a way for the existing manufacturers at some point in time to prevent competition from entering the industry. And that results in poor choice for the consumer, especially as there is consolidation in the industry.
Sounds like this could be grounds for a antitrust lawsuit. Unfortunately though as slow as Government moves it's going to be at least a decade before we see such a challenge
Just an FYI: We have a 24yo motorhome and it has a Silver Seal. Not sure if things have changed in 24 years, probably has, but we definitely have a silver seal on our Bend, Oregon built coach.
👍 Replace the word "lobby" with "bribe" or as they call it "campaign contribution" and you have it .
That's an overgeneralization. I am a member of a couple of organizations that advocate for me. I would not call it bribery under any circumstance. The best way to blunt the effect of the lobbying groups would be to hire more congressional staff so that they can do the research that regulations require instead of relying on lobbying groups to do that research for them.
@@richmanwisco Call it what you want, it boils down to a bribe.
Hey, I was out camping and finally was able to watch this video. Thank you for explaining this RVIA tag thing, so much appreciated. Also, your videos are getting REALLY GOOD. I tell all my camper friends to subscribe.
@@One2Daemon thanks so much!
The exclusion of RV’s from lemon laws is shameful. Fixing this would be one area of increased regulation that I would think many consumers would appreciate.
That's for another highly informative video. I stumbled into that realization when reviewing my invoice for our camper. In many ways, the RVIA is just like other standards organizations, including ISO, ASTM, and the Joint Commission. If you're familiar with how those work, then you understand why the RVIA is not that unusual. When I was in manufacturing, the big deal was ISO. All ISO9000 did was confirm that you documented your processes and that they were generally best practice methods. The joke was you could build a concrete canoe and still be ISO9000 compliant.
At least my 40 year old trailer has that sticker. I’ve run into the ten year old rule, but never a sticker inspection. I’ve thought about replacing the galvanized metal skin because I think it’s hard to clean, and it’s 40 years old, but I guess I would have to cut it off and glue it on the new walls.
People used to camp in home built trailers all the time and it must have made the lobbyists super mad
Thanks for the info. I always wondered about that sticker. I am glad I have one on my 15 year old Navion, for whatever it’s worth.
Sounds like just another junk fee added in against our will!
No, there is a good reason for it. But as Jason explains, the organization behind it is not necessarily looking out for the consumer. It's a bit conflicted.
Buy anything from virtually any company and part of that cost is lobbying costs.
Great video, very informative
Many thanks!
RVIA is only to make money for the association. There is no one making sure each unit is built to standard. We had issues with our rig from the getgo. Luckily a service manager at a different dealership went over the rig when we came in with a list of issues and he told use he found 9 issues that were not built or installed in accordance with standards including 3 nails put through water and LP lines. The second dealer completed all issues under warranty. He even tried to get the unit replaced by the OEM, which only failed but they tried to deny most of the repairs. Question now have the RVIA inspectors moved on to Boeing????????
This is really interesting. Checking into it, RVIA is essentially a trade organization used for standardization, lobbying, and safety. I can see why customer service and longevity are left to individual manufacturers since that is outside of their scope. Their site also says the RVTI Certification is the ONLY industry recognized RV tech certification. Does this mean manufacturers and vendors can void your warranty if a tech with any other cert works on your stuff? This could be important to know.
I've got an '83 Newman 5th and have never been rejected from a campground. It has a molded plastic RVIA tag screwed right next to the door. I just send pics and a copy of the latest inspection. We have an inspection done to ensure safety and to make sure we are on top of maintenance.
In over 10 years of RVing, I've never met an RVIA certified anything. I guess they don't recognize NRVTA as certified. Makes it easy to void warranties or refuse to do a repair under warranty.
Good information. It’s a good thing to understand about what’s going on.
Build standards are there.
RVs just are not built to quality standards.
Venting, i know you said it.
Great presentation as always.
Two friends brought brand new RV’s both leak in the rain . Another has a cracked frame . The older models are built better look nice .
That's debatable. You haven't considered the older ones that were junked long ago.
Thanks for explaining this, i have said this for years.
You're very welcome!
I can see both sides of this argument. On the one hand, just let people do what they want to build their own camper. However, when an amateur-built RV catches fire and it spreads to the others around it, that becomes a problem. I can see where an RV park's insurance company wants to mitigate any risk of having to pay on a claim and this is one way to do it. My RV is about to hit 10 years of age but is garaged and looks brand new. If a park insists on turning me away I will spend my money elsewhere. On the Oregon coast I tried to make a reservation in my 21' Class C and was told that Class Cs had to be at least 25' to stay there. This makes zero sense so I suspect they were just after bigger rigs to charge more money. I stayed at the adjacent park and was happier. My RV was somewhat custom built by a manufacturer and I'm not even sure if I have an RVIA sticker on it. That being said, I drove it for 8 years with a coach battery compartment that had two 6V AGM batteries in series, charging all the time with no venting on that compartment. I installed venting myself when I realized that was wrong and dangerous.
Rvia must be on an indefinite vacation😂
As much as I hate RIVA, at least now they are offering inspections and certification stickers on tiny homes and conversions. This was not true when we built our skoolie or we would have done it, I know I tried. And when we are done with buslife and I have the funds I plan to convert something else and you’d better believe I am getting it certified! Will make life much easier.
Very informative.
Thanks!
My new travel trailer has an RVIA Sticker and a design defect in the freshwater tank where 1/3 of the water cannot be used, or even drained from the tank. I’m still in back and forth with the manufacturer as to whether or not the warranty applies. My question: is it possible to complain to the RVIA if this is a case of not meeting a standard, and will the RVIA do anything as a result of a consumer complaint? Good video. Thanks!
OK RV miles I appreciate you explaining what our VA means but you didn’t answer the question can campgrounds. Keep you out because they don’t have that sticker., I have Earth Romer and I don’t have that sticker
Well technically, I would suspect that being Private Property, the business could make any rule they want. Like denying service to Haitians from Springfield.
They can deny you for any reason they want. As I stated, it’s usually either insurance reasons or to keep what they consider to be junkers out. Somebody that throws a couch in the back of a school bus types.
This may not be want you wanna hear, but it’s private property. Just like your own home, they can keep out who they want.
Ahhhh, what do I do if my sticker is pealing off or has fallen off? Will they send me a replacement?
So if they are protecting you in these new RV's, why are we having such trouble now with frame failures. To top this off why are the manufactures allowed to deny that it even happens?? These frame failures are bad enough that rigs are declared JUNK at very young ages
after sale. If you are paying for this sticker then it needs to be checking whats going on in the industry especially now since the frame failures have become more and more noted on rigs built from after the pandemic years.
If the RVIA wants to lobby for the protection of the manufacturers, let the manufacturers PAY for the stickers and not the RV buyers.
Repairs in a reusable amount of time. How many years is that?
😂 👍🏼🍻
Wait a damn minute. You say they have inspector’s walk the lines and inspecting these units! Are they wearing blindfolds???
A few times a year, and they’re not looking for quality, they’re looking for adherence to the standard.
Actually they are Boeing inspectors who moonlight as RV inspectors when on vacation. Basically the companies self inspect and, having having worked somewhere which pulled this, clean up their act prior to the inspectors arriving. The company I worked at always knew 2 weeks in advance when inspections were scheduled, who the inspectors were and made sure everything was perfect when the inspectors arrived.
I've got NO sticker on my coachmen...funny. I can see why
You sure it didn't fall off?
I don't really care about the RVIA seal (but I fully understand what people 'think' it means). What I REALLY want to see are LEMON LAWS get put in place for RVs. The RV industry is plagued with junk-manufacturing and lazy builds with most new RVs being sold having to live their first season out-of-commission as the corrupt RV dealer fights with the greedy RV manufacturer as to who is going to handle all the 'warranty work' that is found during the first shakedown trip people take with their new RV (if they even know what to look for, that is). I realize that RV lemon laws would totally bankrupt Thor, but it's absolutely needed. RVs aren't cheap.
So, buyers are paying for a trade association to lobby against consumer protections. Sounds reasonable to me.
Just imagine if RVIA did not exist. It might take a little while, but we have phenomenal RVs because all the junk RV manufactures would go out of business.
Yup I call it the BS 💩 sticker lol. 🍻
The RVIA seal isn't worth the foil it's printed on. I bought a brand new rpod -with the seal- and it had failures in almost every part of the rig. Electrical, plumbing, frame, body, windows, floor, propane. You name it. RVIA is meaningless. Also any forest river product is trash.
RVs not built in Elkhart don't have the RVIA stickers. ORV's is one that comes to mind. Built in Oregon.
Our Lance camper was built in Lancaster, California and has an RVIA sticker.
Lazy Daze, built in California for 66 yrs, have RVIA stickers
Anyone who's ever done any work on an RV "behind the panels" knows that these things are built like absolute garbage. Shoddy plumbing work, terrible wiring, no color coding at all, leaks galore. I've had both class C's and fifth wheels from different manufacturers. It doesn't make any difference. They're all garbage, no pride of workmanship whatsoever.
I feel sorry for people who don't have any mechanical inclination, having solely to rely on the monkeys at RV repair shops. These "techs" are no better than the clowns who build them.
I, for one, disagree strongly with your observation. My rig has been an excellent value for money. Ever consider that maybe RVs are not for you?
💯 u nailed it! @The-Bankster Quality has gone to 💩. It's super sad. And anyone can be hired as an 'rv tech' with zero training or schooling, winging-it on the job learning. Im on my 4th RV, so yeah u gotta be handy cause the monkeys just f* up more in the process of fixing. 😬🙄. And if u get an RV with no problems, I would say go out n buy a lotto ticket u got a horse shoe up your butt! 😂🍻
@@richmanwisco You should probably learn to read and comprehend before commenting. Your rig may be a good value (I said NOTHING about value whatsoever) but it's still built like a piece of trash.
I've full timed for almost 5 years now, so I'm pretty sure RVs are for me, fool.
@@richmanwisco Pretty sure they're for me, since I've lived in one full time for almost 5 years now. Glad you find your rig a good value. Pull off a panel and see what you think about craftsmanship, which was the whole point of my post. I said NOTHING about value.
Learn to read and comprehend, fool.
@@richmanwisco Did I mention "value" anywhere in my post? If they're not for me, I'm in a world of trouble, because I've been in the game for 30+ years and have full timed for the last 5. Ever done any work to your RV yourself? No? Didn't think so.
The RVIA is a useless organization that does nothing for RV owners. RVIA standards are useless as there is no quality standard to back up any specification.