Which Great House deserved its Position the Least? | A Song of Ice and Fire
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- Опубліковано 18 кві 2024
- Not all great houses were created equally. When the Targaryens conquered Westeros, some houses were elevated to the status of great house overnight, while others lost their crowns. In this video, we'll take a closer look at which house got the best deal out of Aegon's conquest.
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Thank you all so much for the overwhelming positive feedback! I am very glad you guys like the video. Thank you! And if any of you have suggestions as to what i can cover next: Feel free to let me know!
House Tyrell to the Gardeners of the Reach is like what House Cassel is to the Starks of the North. The Greyjoys are chosen by their people and the Tullys are at the very least, a lordly house. I agree with your list and you deserve a like :)
The Tullys can’t even prevent two of their most important bannermen from immediately declaring war on each other every time there’s a conflict.
Which ones are you talking about, to clarify?
@@kjsdpgijn Blackwoods and the Brackens. As soon as any conflict breaks out they try to get on opposite sides just to kill each other.
@@kevinneutzling8267 Pretty based
and they cant control the freys
@@kevinneutzling8267 During the rebelion both the Blackwoods and Brackens followed Robert and during The war of the five kings they also both declared for Robb its not like they always do it.
Disagree.
The Tyrells had served as loyal and effective stewards for ages, even going so far as to put the Gardener dynasty back together after it fell apart. They have personally ruled as regents many times and overlooked the main keeping of Highgarden.
I strongly agree with you. Well said!
Stewards are always overlooked when in reality they do the most work
The Tyrells never ruled as regents before the conquest, they served as Castellians. The Hightowers, Redwynes and Tarly were interlated power lords under house Gardner who each had a good claim. The Targeryons intentional installed the low nobility Tyrells purely to make the wealthiest and arguably most powerful kingdom waste time and effort in domestic squabbles against the Tyrells instead of uniting and effectively fighting off the Targeryons.
@@lazyidiotofthemonth I’m pretty sure a Tyrell ruled as regent before the conquest but I won’t argue about it
@@lazyidiotofthemonth who do you think was ruling Highgarden while house Peak and Manderly destroyed the gardeners
The Lannisters literally tricked their way into getting a castle💀
Not really, they still have casterly blood. Like baratheons still have durran blood
The Tullys are a literal liability in any war against the Lannister's at their castle and homebase is right next to the Westerland's. The Greyjoy's aren't the strongest house by demesne and constantly prevent the Iron Islands from advancing. The Tyrells, on the other hand despite not being kings, like the other two, earned their position due to good politics and great governance.
How does being a liability in a war against the lannisters impact their claim? A: the houses aren't supposed to fight in post conquest westeros.B: where else would the capital of the riverlands be? Harrenhal? It'll be a liability against the arryns. Seagard? Greyjoys. The twins? Starks. The riverlands is surrounded on all sides, there is no good capital location.
Riverrun is very defensible due to how it's constructed but there isn't really any other choice of capital in the Riverlands. Maybe Harrenhal could have been rebuilt at some point but it would never have happened when the memory of House Hoare was still recent and after that it was more work than it was worth.
The only tullys that were liabilities were hosted tullys children, with each of them making mistakes that cost thousands of lives
@@mappingshaman5280 ok this is a bs claim while yes the riverlands are surrounded they can literally utilize the same defenses as their enemies I mean literally in the south is the black water river blocking them from the reach and stormlands, then we have the western hills where an appropriate fort at their end would stop attacks, the north doesnt do shit so dont need a fort their especially with the twins, and same for the mountains of the moon as for the western hills only rivelrnads hold back the Riverlands under a strong dynasty they could have matched the reach in power
The Tyrells probaly deserve their position the most xD. They have managed to become the strongest House in Westeros through their rulership skills alone even if they had the weakest blood/claim. They literaly used Highgarden's power and politics at 110%.
no they have a rocky standing at best with their lords
Baratheon under Greyjoy? Robert has entered the chat, and Pyke.
Lmao very underrated comment
At the start of the video he says he doesn't counts post-Robert's rebellion achievedments tho.
@@darkphoenix2745 must have missed that thanks
This is looking at the houses from the moment Aegon’s conquest was finished. At that point, the Baratheons just looked like a bunch of upjumped weirdos who were Aegon’s friends.
The Tyrell’s, they surrendered a vacant castle and got to rule of the most powerful kingdom in the seven kingdoms, The Tullys are close seconds but at least they were the first in the riverlands to aid Aegon, plus by picking them youavoid having to choose between the Brackens and Blackwoods and causing the eternal hatred of at least 1 of those houses.
Yeah this is my take as well, and the Tyrells even admit that a ton of other houses in the reach have just as much of a claim to Highgarden as they do, so like, at the outset they just happened to be in the right place at the right time, and just accept the Targaryen rule and bam. Now, they did kind of make up for it in subsequent years, iirc Highgarden was staunchly loyal to the crown thereafter but yeah
@@WatashiMachineFullCycle not really, Mace Tyrell screwed up at the most pivotal Targaryen rebellion, he basically used 60K men to siege 1 castle. Leo Longthorn was cool and really did help the Targaryens against the Blackfyres, and Lyonel Tyrell was the warden of Dorne for Daeron I but he was an ass and got himself killed off.
@@billychops1280Mace was for sure incompetent but I don't think he was doing that on purpose, I just meant that they were always ride or die for the Targaryens, regardless of ability or competency. That counts for something at the least 🤷
@@WatashiMachineFullCycle but they weren’t, at least with Mace they weren’t, Mace followed his kings commands (something no one can fault him for after the war regardless of who won) he also made sure to basically waste non of his troops, not even allowing Randyl Tarly to pursue the Brocken enemy after the battle of Ashford (which is smart because even if the Targs lose after the war his army is large enough on its own to fight off any Invasions into the reach by Robert or Ned or Jon Arryn). He basically just wasted time, either because he was too dumb to realize what was happening or because he was smart enough to know not to overapply his realm. And like I said this was the most pivotal moment in targ history. And the Tyrell’s failed them. The other most vital point were the Blackfyre rebellions, mostly the first 1 and yes Leo Longthorn was a staunch ally and vassal. But that’s basically the only other time the Tyrell’s had to step up. During the Dance, Lyonel Tyrell was a child and so his mom decided not to support either side, so the Tyrell’s escaped having to make a great decision by virtue of the lord being a babe. When Maegor usurped Aegon the Uncrowned the Tyrellls didn’t rise up, nor did they cut down super hard on the faith militant, they again just kinda stood there.
I agree that the besieging of Storm's End by the Tyrells was a ploy to make it look like they were supporting the Targaryens without having to commit to a war they maybe would not win.
It has to be the Tullys. They have their position simply for being the first to declare for Aegon. Many better housed in the Riverlands.
Just like Tyrells, they were bare serving people before they gave castle to Aegon
@@miklu56Tyrrells were way more influential though. There were several times when Tyrrells decided who will rule the Reach.
@@argo9750 no only once and that was after a civil war their have been regencies but the Tyrells were stewards not lords
The Tully’s… they were never kings, never had the strength as an individual house to supplant dominance over Houses Blackwood, House Bracken or House Frey. Also the stupidity of their lords and lady’s in the time frame of the novels or the show does nothing but highlight the Houses unworthiness.
Never making an attempt to inter marry the weakest River lands House (Most likely Tully) with the strongest (Everyone knows it’s the Frey’s) is single handedly why the Young Wolf ultimately lost his life during the war. If Hoster or his equally ignorant father had made attempts to unite houses Tully and Frey, all of Walder Frey’s haggling, stubbornness, tardiness and betrayal could have easily been avoided.
Walders Frey Generation of Frey's are largely a**holes the perfect opportunity problably would have been when Sabitha Vypern was in charge.
At least the Tullys were lords. Tyrells were stewards.
@@veritasinvicta8128 True, but the Tyrell’s did more with marriage alliances leading up to the events of the Novel. For instance Lady Olenna is a Rewyne, Maces wife Lady Alerie hails from house Hightower. Both Houses are probably the strongest houses in the Reach in terms of specific Military power and economic prosperity within the region. The current Tully’s… Edmure, Catelyn and Lisa’s Mother came from a house that’s now extinct. What did the Went’s have to offer house Tully in terms of security via that alliance and Marriage.
@@erikdgreenlund I was referring to the time of Aegon's conquest. By ASIOF the Tyrells are the second wealthiest house in Westeros as the Liege Lords of the Reach.
The Frey's were all disgusting pigs, they were tolerated to the point of them sneaking untold wealth into their house. The Tully's should've just tried to hammer them down but then there's also the fact that No one actually wanted the crossing because it was a freezing damp watery shithole that was rife with drama from every house in the regions lmao
The Lannister's are an Andal house that took the name from the First Men house when an Andal knight married the last female Lannister. Their connection to Lann the Clever is through the female line.
Yes. So the Lannisters are a First men house who have had some help along the line from an Andal lord (ser Joffrey Lydden)
@@theboarandthelion By that logic, house Baratheon is also a first men house, as it is build upon house Durrandon. No of cause not. Just because you adopt another house's words or sigil, does not change it's origin. House Lannister as it is known at the time, is of Andal origin.
Yeah, the current Lannister line is technically House Lydden, patrilineally. The line of the rulers of Casterly Rock was taken matrilineally two times then, interestingly - and they're definitely more Andal now than First Men, as are most houses south of the Neck.
I mean thats not uncommon for some Houses.
@@NielsMulvad your Baratheon example is a bad pick. According to you, this would make House Baratheon a Valyrian house, cause Orys was Valyrian… which simply doesn’t describe what House Baratheon is like.
Also, by your example, the modern House Stark were actually founded by Bael the Bard, not Brandon the Builder.
Easy, House Tully. Tyrells have matrilineal gardener ancestry at least and were known as skilled stewards. So many riverland houses trump the tullys.
I agree with you that they not among the strongest riverlords. But chance would have it they were during the conquest.
same thing for the Tyrells and many houses are related to the gardeners the Tyrells are literally and self admittedly not the best claimants
@@durrangodsgrief6503 Yes but over the centuries during Targaryen rule, many women from the other great houses of the Reach married into house Tyrell. So through their mothers, they also have ancestry from these supposed superior houses. House Redwyne for example are the ancestors of the current tyrells through Olenna, and Hightower through Alerie. Therefore being the best claimants doesn't really matter all that much due to a combination of all of these advantageous marriages that bore progeny and being wardens of the south for so long. House Tully are major lords but not wardens, far poorer than house Tyrell, and cannot manage their vassals(*cough cough* Freys/Brackens/Blackwoods).
Also as I mentioned in my original comment, house Tyrell were close to the Gardeners due to their ancestry. House Tully doesn't even have that. That is why I ranked them as the most undeserving.
So you deserve to rule not based on your own merits, but based on which womb you happen to be born from?
Apart from the fact that is a messeed up morality, it would also mean the Targaryens are actually the least deserving to rule. Literally every other house mentioned here was already reasonably powerful while the Targaryens owned only a rock in Shipbreaker Bay. They had absolutely zero ancestry in Westeros, less than any other house. They just ruled because they burned anyone who stood against them.
It is weird to say that house Targaryan is more deserving of their position then the Starks (as you put the at the top).
One house was a minor house that fled their homelands, and was chilling on an island. While the Starks ruled and continued to rule wisely even after bending the knee. The Targaryen's legitimacy is build upon dragons, and when the last dragon died so did their claim to rule. Which is why they lost more and more power until the rebellion.
Nah I would argue that the house with the most legitimate position, is house Stark.
So true, i would absolutely not give a fuck about the targaryans if they had no dragons😂
They stayed in power for another 150 yrars after losing their dragons, so they didn't need them to rule. The reason they lose so much power is because Summerhault, wich is ironic because if they didn't tried to get more dragons they would've been far stronger than in the canon.
@darkphoenix2745 I would argue they absolutely needed the dragons to rule. Before the overgrow lizards died out the biggest threat to a Targaryen monarch was another Targaryen. Then the Dance of Dragons happen and suddenly your reliant on the loyalty of lords who have their own agendas and ambitions. Summerhall without a doubt weakened the Targaryen cause but the writing was on the wall a long time before that when noble houses backed Daemon Blackfyre to raise his banners in rebellion.
@@jonathonmcclellan4716 I mean, yeah, having dragons helped them to keep the other houses loyal, but that applies for any other house. The fact that each of the noble families have their own agendas and ambitions doesn't means the only way to control them is with dragons. Dragons are the most secure one tho.
@@mansuetoyosoresblonde hair and purple eyes mean nothing to you?!
Given that the Gardeners have just been wiped out and the Tyrells had no means to raise another army to fight the Targs and their dragons, what were they supposed to do? They saved an untold number of lives by bending the knee. Highgarden would have been another Harrenhal. The Tyrells are no less deserving than any of the other houses. In the long run, they seem to have served their kingdom the best. The only time things got bad in the Reach is when the Targs were at each other's throats, Dance of The Dragons and Blackfyre Rebellion.
Putting the Tyrells in charge of high garden was def a smart move on Aegon’s part. He bought this house’s loyalty completely & made their status rely on his legitimacy meaning they couldn’t as easily rebel & default to past claims of kingship as the florents or Redwynes might.
House Martel should be second they were never conquered so that is S Tier level.
Please continue with this content! Love it and you are to say the least good at it, informqtive but not too boring, perfect amount of detail, and so on!
Keep it up❤
Thanks, I think! Assuming that me being the least good at it was a typo haha.
@@theboarandthelionhaha what i meant is that the least i can say is tgat your goof at it!
In that case, thank you very much haha!
Wow I had known it but watching this video only really put it in my face that aegon targaryian raised 5 houses(if you count house targaryian) into king status and they still overthrow their house 300 years later
i might be the only one but i always looked at the kingdoms of westeros as seperate entities. Its just way more interesting this way. All the regions have such a distinct feel to them
always nice to see a good video of a small channel and seeing a subgoal of his has been reached!
Thank you very much for your kind words!
Definitely the Tullys
Except for the stewards to the Gardener Kings. At least the Tullys were lords. I can imagine the Hightowers and others weren't happy about the Tyrell ascension. In fact, Jon Connington supposedly has "Friends in the Reach". Many houses from The Reach were undoubtedly not content with the current situation of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance.
Awesome stuff my friend. Keep up the good work.
I second this!
Thank you both very much for your kind words!
Blessings from the algorithm today i guess 😅 I'm glad i came across you. Very underrated, great videos, keep up the great work my friend
Thank you very much for your kind words! and i'm glad you like my videos.
To quote: “The Tyrells are dogs, they are my liege lords but they are dogs.”
Would otherwise joke the correct flag for house Tyrell is a plain white field.
Hey, really nice content dude! You may not have all the lore down quite as tight as some other channels who are REALLY deep in the weeds, but your presentation, structuring, narration, and editing were all really nice! Subscribed! Hope you get to 1000 subs soon, man! Keep up the nice work. I’m gonna go watch some more of your videos!
Thank you very much for your kind words!
I’d probably geive the Martells a bit of a boost on my own list, as the Rhoynish legacy of the house through Nymeria. Any group that was able to go toe to toe with Valyria at its height for 200+ years deserves a special nod, even if they did lose in the end.
Awesome video with a perfect mix of amazing art
Thank you very much for your kind words!
The Targaryens. Basically got gifted dragons (would have never been successful without them) and yet still manage to screw everything up with infighting and dumb decisions, losing the throne they were basically gifted by being given a superpower.
The Targs squandered there power and dominance at every opportunity so them.
The riverlands if im not mistaken were subjugated by the ironborns by the guy that build harrenhall. The tullies got to "rule" the region cause the bend the knee. Most of of their bannermen are insubordinate and geographically they are the center of every major battle.
I just stumbled across your Channel on my recommended videos I Love A Song of Ice and Fire in Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon I just finished watching your video very knowledgeable and very informative I particularly enjoyed your precise dating of how long the different houses ruled over their perspective regions I've always been a little confused about that how long they ruled their prospective regions how are you able to learn this information if you don't mind my asking I've studied every piece of lore I could find and I've never come across anything indicating specifically how long they've ruled their respective region❤
Firstly, thank you very much for your kind words! For the information i've mainly used The World of Ice and Fire. But even the dates there are not set in stone. The Andal invasion for example could have been 6000 years ago, but also 4000 years ago according to the maesters. For the purpose of this video, I chose 4000 and went with it.
@theboarandthelion you're welcome you put a lot of depth and care and thought into this and I respect and appreciate that it's refreshing to meet devoted fans to A Song of Ice and Fire as much as I am I do vividly recall when I first start watching Game of Thrones about the andal Invaders I can see why you would choose 4000 years instead of 6,000 from my perspective 4,000 years makes sense because of the Citadel and the Maesters so I think that was a great example to use I do enjoy thorough analysis of the world of Song of Ice and Fire and its Mysteries and I'm definitely going to keep watching your videos you're doing a good job making them so keep up the good work!😁
20 more subs, lets go dude!!
Thanks you so much for the support!
Most people here are very biased when it comes to House Greyjoy but they do have a long and proud history despite being vassals for a long time.
When they chose Vickon Greyjoy as their new ruler, they aimed for peace with the greenland because Vickon in particular was very open minded and wise unlike the stubborn Harren the Black
Balon kind of was right seizing the opportunity to declare independence after the Targaryens were gone but his plans were just beyond bad.
Dalton "The Red Kraken" was only a tool for Rhaenyra but she and her council underestimated what Ironborn actually do once they gained independence.
It was the most stupid offer on the blacks part ngl
Agreed! The Greyjoys might not be the typical Westerosi lords, but they have a very rich history.
Martell above lannister and Aryn. Managed to defeat dragons puts them in legendary status. Very deserving imo
The Tullys literally owe their very existence to the Targaryens.
I mean, of the lords paramount, the Baratheons seem to have a strong predisposition towards complete idiocy.
It's a real shame Robert could never work in step with his brothers, because between the three of them they have the qualities of a complete person
You're doing Stannis dirty here haha
@@theboarandthelion the only one I'm really doing dirty is Boremun.
How many times does Jon tell Stannis that Val isn't a princess?
I dunno I wouldn't have such an easy time placing house stark beneath house targaryan. It's a song of ice and fire. Ice comes first. The dragons really weren't up to ruling all 7 kingdoms for more than a few years while the wolves knew their place and did a pretty good job.
Hot take the Targaryens were not the most deserving they litterally took over the world not because they had skill but because luck had caused all of the people stronger than them to die. The starks however that’s a family that deserved its throne
love the video!!
Thank you very much!
Why have I never known that Lannisters originate from the first men
Technically, they’re apparently descended from the first men from the female line, but they’ve married into so many andal houses they probably don’t have much first man blood left
Great content!
Can you please do next which of vassal houses deserve to be a great house. Thanks 😊
Thank you! And I will definitely write it down! Next up Game of Thrones' 5 missing major characters, I have some video's lined up after that but I like the suggestion so I will absolutely make it!
@@theboarandthelion Thanks!
Ranking the houses is a tough ask coz for all GRRM talks about Aragon's tax policy, the nobles barely do any actual ruling
Ruling a kingdom is hard work, problems cropping up constantly and some of them are unavoidable like the truly horrendous weather patterns
Yet, the various Targaryen monarchs and Robert will only ever face problems due to plot
So using the simplest metric (historical achievement) at the bottom would have to be the Tyrells, coz they owe their position almost entirely due to convenience. They were just there. In the 300 years since, they've been able rulers of the Reach, but they only got their position in the first place by being convenient. Not old and respected so won't be a headache for the Targaryens yet strong enough to keep the rest of the Reach in line.
Next lowest. The Greyjoys. Coz they were elected to their position and i love me a democracy (for what this is worth)
Next, the Tullys. I rank them higher coz they were already fighting the Hoares when Aegon first invaded, and attached themselves to him coz it makes good political sense to attach oneself to a dragon rider who's going to conquer you anyway.
Next up, the Baratheons due to the ignominious end of the Durrandons, yet they conquered the Stormlands initially and the Baratheon is literally just a continuation.
The rest of the great houses are roughly similar with the Targaryens coming on top due to the fact that they conquered the whole continent (... eventually)
Bare in mind, that this personal list is for the hyper specific question put in the title, rank which of the great houses deserver their POSITION
Which i took to mean getting there in the first place.
Keeping that position on the other hand. The Targaryens are quite a pathetic dynasty to be honest. Populated by men with horrible political acumen with a bad habit of sexually abusing their preteen sisters/nieces/cousins etc. and forcing their children to marry each other
The best kings are Aegon I, who created it, Daeron II (the good) for being the only normal one, Daeron I, who managed to conquer an enemy, and the rest range from mediocre at best (Daeron II's kids) to sexual predator in dire need of a beating
Jaehaerys I is also extremely overrated by both fandom and GRRM. I haven't read anything about him that actually impresses me. I'd take Aegon I over Jaehaerys I any day.
I LOVE the Tyrells... but I knew they'd probably be at the bottom lol
I think they're a very intriguing great house as well!
The greyjoys. The tyrells and tullys may have less claim to their thrones than the greyjoys to theirs, but at least they weren't constantly starting shit like the greyjoys.
I mean personally I wouldn't put as much importance on the mythic past of some houses but I like the list. I guess would put the Martells higher.
Great video!
Subbed
Agreed! Me too!
Thank you both for your kind words!
The house that immediately came to my mind after reading the title of the video is tyrells
The Tullys. The Tully girls made the realm bleed lol
I think its fairly stupid to just discount that House Baratheon is essentially a House Durrandon expy. They took Durrandon's lands, castle, sigil, words, and daughter, and just slapped Baratheon onto it. If you are going to give Lannister credit for Lann the Clever, you should take the Storm King lineage into consideration for Baratheon. and if you do, having them this low is a joke.
Also, Tully over Tyrell is ridiculous. The Riverlands is the 1900s France of Westeros, just getting their asses kicked every other minute by anyone with more than 7 guys. The Tyrells, while newly appointed, were still Stewards of Highgarden for countless ages, and the Reach was always a powerful kingdom.
If Orys would have taken the Durrandon name, they would probably have tied with House Stark. As it stands now: House Baratheon has only existed for 300 years. The reason they are at the top of the lords paramount is because of their Durrandon history however.
Robert was called Robert Baratheon, not Robert Durrandon. For all intents and purposes, House Baratheon is a new House, and GRRM seems to agree, as he wrote the Baratheons were the youngest of the Great Houses. So, no. Baratheons may have Durrandon blood... but they are not Durrandons.
@@zaja2418 yeah Durrandon blood, Durrandon lands, Durrandon's castle, Durrandon's vassals, Durrandon's words, Durrandon's sigil, etc...... but, nah they're totally new! Come on.
@@KS-xk2so Hey, don't tell me. Tell GRRM who wrote, and I quote:
'The youngest of the Great Houses, born during the Wars of Conquest. Its founder, Orys Baratheon, was rumored to be Aegon the Dragon's bastard brother'.
GRRM considers House Baratheon to be younger than House Arryn, even though the Durrandons were kings thousands of years before the Andals came.
The Andals arrived 6,000 years before Aegons conquest so the the Starks, Lannisters, and Arryns ruled for roughly 6,000 yrs.
arryns where of andal decent when a andali knight wi the kingship. kings of the vale where just a bunch of petty kings battling it out for supremacy before then. they haven’t ruled as long as the starks or lannisters. who actually trace their lines back to the first men.
According to the maesters the exact date is not sure. The Andal invasion took place between 6000 and 4000 years before the conquest. For the purpose of this video, I chose 4000 to calculate the length of rule of the respective houses.
I’m pretty sure the Starks and Lannisters ruled for a few thousand years before the coming of the Andals too.
They both did yes.
Interesting ranking mine would be: 1st Nymeros-Martell for ingenuity, diplomacy & resilience. 2nd Stark for being so resilient for so long, historically iconic. 3rd or 4th Arryn for ancient & cultural significance. 3rd or 4th Targaryen for mostly luck but also the feat of basically uniting Westeros. 5th Lannister oldish but too dependent on plot armour & few legendary accomplishments. 6th Tully for negotiating their way to such a high status from a middling at best rank. 7th Tyrell basically risen to power for symbolic reasons on the part of Aegon. 8th Baratheon piggy backed their way to power off of Aegon then copied durrandons. 9th Greyjoy nobody even cared enough to pick an iron lord, they just left it to the people there to sort themselves out
Good list! Although I especially disagree with the low placing of the Greyjoys. These guys ruled as chosen kings of the Iron Islands for many years!
Honestly targarians. They had magical dragons that were large enough to defeat armies. Not exactly fair
Interesting vid
1) House Tully- No experience at ruling, too many vassals who outclass them in troops, wealth, territory and prestige. Replace them with House Mallister.
2) House Tyrell- Same position as House Greyjoy but as stewards to House Gardener, they would have some experience managing affairs beyond their Domains.
3) House Greyjoy- While Pyke is not the wealthiest, largest, oldest or Prestigeous island they do have the strongest Castle. Also, they were chosen by their own people rather than being appointed by Aegon. While House Tyrell had trouble controlling their vassals in the early Targaryen reign, House Greyjoy maintained absolute control over its vassals.
The Mallister bit is absolutely based.
@@DJayEJay Who else is there? They would never accept the Freys, The Brakens and Blackwoods are a hot potato that should not be handled. It is either the Mallisters or the Mootons.
Nice to see this before RR cause we know who at the top after that
Hands down, House Greyjoy. Before the Targaryens arrival the King of the Kingdom of the Rivers and Islands was determined by who was strongest, who was smartest, who was the nastiest, in the end that was House Hoare. Then Aegon Targaryen came and killed Harren the Black and his sons, divided their kingdom in two, the Riverlands and the Iron Islands, and appointed their new Lords. The Tully's sided with the Targaryens against King Harren and thus earned their gratitude and rule of the Riverlands, but the Greyjoys were pretty much just picked out of a hat. Somebody had to be in charge..... ehhhh.... eeny meeny miney moe. And ever since the Greyjoys continued to plot to reclaim their Kingship.
House Hoare had an hereditary line of sucession, and they became kings thanks to joining forces with the Andals, so they were very much alike the other kingdoms in that aspect.
Isn't house lannister supposed to be an Andal house ?
Originally they were first men, but their male line died out and the Lannister king (King Gerold the 3rd) married his daughter to an Andal lord (Ser Joffrey Lydden) matrilineally.
I do find it funny how slow this world advances, 4000 years is a really long time for any political system to remain let's along 9 separate structures.
That's a very interesting thought. But the Known World seems to change a lot slower than ours.
I'm surprised you didn't put the Martells in top 3. Who could be more deserving of ruling their territory than the house that fought off the Targaryens successfully?
Houses that fought of the Andals, I would say
Good content
i wish house baratheon had more say in the sevenkingdoms hisotry considering via orys they are quiet literally a puesdo cadet branch yet the valyerons managed to hold the second seat
I'd say it would serve better to rank based on the new status quo, ie, lords who can serve (and survive) the Targaryen power structure.
In that regard I'd go Targaryen, Martell (who got to pick their terms), Stark (both maintained the old and adapted to the new power structure), Greyjoy (similar reasons), Lannister (who are independently able to support the crown) and I guess Arryn next, but they feel like the most useless extension of the iron throne. Baratheon, Tully, and Tyrell are all propped up on the backs of dragons. Which depending on your view could make them the most or the least "deserving" in that they owe the crown their allegiance because it guarantees their own power. Which is probably why all those families disintegrated in the civil war (well, the Tyrells on TV, who presumably are not winning the game of thrones in the books but we'll never know).
I would personally put dorne second, They pulled off the near impossible by killing a dragon, It is a feat of legendary proportion considering the period and how hopeless the other houses ended up being
I always thing hightowers deserved to rule the reach instead tayrrals
I agree!
The Tully's themselves can't field as many men as the Vances, their direct vassals and lords with much smaller territory.
House Tyrell were related to the Gardener's through marriage, the female line. They bent the knee because it was the right thing to do.
Yes, but so are all the other houses in the reach, but then with stronger blood ties.
The Baratheons should be 4th place in my opinion, they are the continuation of an old House, like the Lannisters too (they too get the name from the female line)
That's a good point. If Orys would have also adopted the Durrandon name they would be either second or third (tie with the Starks)
@@theboarandthelionyou should make more ASOIAF lore videos man
I'll probably will after seeing this one's reception haha. To be honest with you, I kind of decided this was going to be my last one before this video went live. My other lore video's perform way worse that my Top 5's, House of the Dragon or Spin-off news video's. But I had already written the script and decided to make the video. And I am very glad I did. And thank you for the kind words!
The Starks should be first. Without them, the entire realm would've been flooded with wildlings. And they are not good to defend the kingdom from the true enemy beyond the wall
Martell, Arryn, Stark, Targaryen won supremacy by conquest. Lannister perhaps too. Answer is either Tully, Greyjoy, or Tyrell
Agreed. Although I would say the Greyjoys deserve their place more than the Baratheons.
Definitely the Tyrells, they basically betrayed their kings and then surrendered
You mean their dead kings?
The Tullys
And thats not even close
The tully fr give off habsburg vibes
I'd say House Tyrell, they were literally just stewards and the only reason they were made lord paramount was because somehow none of House Gardener was left in Highgarden and non survived battle, and thus it was they who surrendered castle.
House Tully might be close second but they already had Riverrun and were lords, just not kings, plus fought for Aegon against House Hoare, so actually did work for it.
they ran the entire kingdom in all but name. So why aren't they deserving of the position
They had ran the Reach countless times as regents and literally put House Gardener together again and re-united the Reach after House Gardener fell apart. Further it’s heavily implied that the reason House Gardener didn’t survive, leaving the Tyrell’s in charge of High Garden was because the Tyrell’s had plotted it, convincing the Gardeners to meet Aegon on the battlefield knowing the Gardeners would lose.
There should have been some female Gardeners left, but I guess they married into House Tyrell
@@kidgforce1 if they did they would have the best uncontested claim and be in the same boat as Lannisters and Baratheons George is just bad at writing his histories the gardener extinction makes no sense
The Targaryans were playing the game in sandbox mode, they didn't deserve jack. The Tully's and especially the Martell's really earned it, playing on the hardest difficulty.
"Oh the Lanisters and Stark's were kings longer". Bitch, the Lanisters spawned on a literal gold mine and the Stark's started with hot springs and heated floors, while the rest of the North was freezing to death. They're like the upper middle class kid who became successful by "hustling" at his dad's law firm.
nymeros martell deserve to be equal or above to the starks, they were the only house to go to war with he targaryens and not be crushed and only joined the iron throne when they CHOSE too, not when they were conquered.
If you exclude the tiny and relatively worthless sister islands and the paps, the Aryns ruled over 99% of the vale for 2000 years as they spent 1000 years fighting with the kings of winter for those little islands
I knew it would end up beeing the Tyrells😂
Tully last for sure 😂 im glad to see that everyone in the comments agrees. Tyrrells did a way better job, keeping the reach the most prosperous region and preventing them from splitting in small pieces.
And they do have Royal ancestry Gardner blood.
what is the music name at 3:15?
A Highlander's Tale - Christoffer Moe Ditlevsen
Really underrating House Martell here. The only house not to be allowed their title as a table scrap by the Targaryens are almost a tie with the Greyjoys? The Greyjoys were just one island among many before someone else gave them their chance. Arryn and Lannister were permitted to have their position by another house; the Martells forged theirs on their own. Should matter a lot more than mere longevity.
Not to mention, the Dornish were never conquered by the Dragons. In fact they slayed one of the queens and her dragon. Only came into the fold through marriage which is why they are allowed to retain the titles of Prince and Princesses of Dorne.
@@steviesmith4986 the dornish have the largest plot armor in westeros the idea that a desert kingdom starved of major resources could have those resources bathed in flame for years and not have an economic collapse is dumb
Are you form the Netherlands?
Yes I am
100% Agree with House Tyrell, however House Martell needs to be higher- they have literally been Unbowed, Unbent, and Unbroken- even by Aegon The Conqueror
That is a achievment of the dornish, not house Martell alone
It's nice to see so much Martell love in the comments. I honestly did not expect that.
Thr titles of Lord Paramount only exists for the Houses that were not Kings in control of the Regions. So only the Tyrells, Baratheons, and Tullys have it. Since they needed the extra title to help with their control.
That is absolutely right. I actually thought about making that fact my first short ever haha
House Hightwower or House Florent are the best for the reach
I agree with the Hightowers
Tully and Tyrell
Arryns are the best
It’s the tullys in my opinion
Tyrel ageon the conquer just gave the castle to the maids
I find it funny that you denote worthiness by the history of the family and not the merits of the individual rulers at any given point. House Tyrell with one of the largest armies, the major agricultural producer for Westeros, and good alliances with the Lannisters whilst maintaining an air or neutrality, the relative peace of their realm, and their ability to move from nothing to Top 3 military power on the continent through diplomacy shows their inherent right to rule. Id argue Tyrell 3rd on the merits of lady Olena and house Tully at the bottom. Greyjoy second last. They're military power, ineptitude, and overall lackluster impact on history outside of the immediate area of the iron islands is self evident of that.
Enjoyed the video regardless. Thank you.
Thank you! I could make a video in the future where they are listed on how much they deserve it based on merits in the 300 years that the Targaryens ruled. But for this video: imagine it's 2 AC (187 AC for Dorne). In 2 AC house Tyrell had none of the things you mentioned. Hence why they are last.
@@theboarandthelion I don't want to come off standoffish, but how did they maintain their lands whilst they border 5 of the 8 other kingdoms. Leaving out the vale, iron isles, and the north.
I understand the targaryens wanting to maintain control but the reach is large and with the Lannisters and Baratheons next door..... Seems unlikely. They might not usurp the lands entirely but I have no doubt the Lannisters at least would take a chunk.
To go from stewards to leaders without a coup or major objection is telling in and of itself. And they still maintained agricultural supremacy over the other houses, the reach has always been the agricultural Heartland to my understanding. Between the crownlands and the reach they border every major power except the north(iron isles don't count. They're essentially an extension of the North and house stark could have forced them to bend the knee at any moment). I'm still curious why Aegon didn't marry one of his sisters to house Tyrell to shore up defenses and pressure house Lannister in the west.
King Mern IX Gardener made a terrible decision. Why would you bring all of your heirs with you to a battle, and particularly one against dragons? "Sons and grandsons" implies multiple of each. So why wouldn't you leave at least one back in Highgarden? The Starks have the right of it, with their "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" mentality
very true!
house greyjoy easily deserves a higher spot in this, imo the second spot after house targaryen. They were literally elected by their vassals. it doesnt get much more legitimate
Definetly the Tullys
What former kingdom are the Iron Islands a part of?
The Iron Islands were their own independent kingdom.
At the time of Aegon’s Conquest, the Iron Islands had subjugated and ruled the Riverlands, so that’s why it was the Seven Kingdoms.
House hoare
@@JammesJack-td6gv Do they fall under the Starks, Tullys, or Lannisters?
@@stevencarver-fd8ii before the conquest it was kingdom of isles and rivers as in riverlands and iron islands. House Hoare was in control of iron islands and riverlands.
The Greyjoys deserve their position the most. They start in Game as a poor House only having a fleet that is worth of note. Their "culture" is based on rape and pillage, but they are too weak to do that except in times of civil war. Furthermore they are ruled by an asshat, whose ambition is only matched by his stupidity until a madman takes over.
Even when they had somewhat of an empire they wasted that on building big castle ooga booga wall go high. If the Targaryans hadnt finished them, an uprising would have.
Tullys.
I’d disagree very much with placing the Targaryen’s rule is based solely on a super weapon, and while I don’t disagree that they did conquer everyone else and rule for some time, they crumbled quickly as soon as they had no super weapon. Could a good argument be made for second or 3 ranked sure, but not first in my humble opinion.
Agreed. I would say
1) Stark (which annoys me, since I’m really not a Stark fan)
2) Martell (they beat the dragons, managed to maintain Dornish independence
3) Lannister
4) Arryn
5) Targaryen
6) Greyjoy
7) Tyrell
8) Tully
Since I forgot them, Baratheon at 6, push everyone 6th or below down 1
HAS to be The Tullys. Right?!
gonna say what everyone else is thinking starks should be at the top. why? because they are everyones favorite, and they controled their kingdom longer than anyone else and while yes the targaryians united all 7 kingdoms under them (6 of them in 3 years.) they couldnt have done it without dragons, which isnt really an accomplishment i think they can take credit for unless they had some plan in place to save their dragons from the doom. sounds like they were just lucky to avoid loseing all their dragons and used them to win their battles. if they were able to beat everyone else with actual strategy and politics then yeah id say they deserve their spot but its not really difficult to convince people to bend the knee when you have the equivalent of a medieval nuke. hell they couldnt even fuck with dorn cause the dorns were smart enough to hide so they couldnt burn them with dragons, and they even managed to fucking killed one of the dragons to so yeah id say dorn definetly earned a higher spot on the list and the targarians have no buisness being above the starks in my oppinion
Greyjoy.
Personally I'd swap Greyjoy and Baratheon as the Baratheons earned their place in the conquest.