San Martin: What you need to know before buying
Вставка
- Опубліковано 17 тра 2024
- San Martin and other homage / replica brands are proving to be very people. Especially since their quality has steadily improved. How good are they? How do they keep the costs so low and what are you missing out on?
Enjoy
To all viewers: Please be polite. Homage and Replicas bring out strong opinions both for and against those watches but also the watches they are emulating. Share your thoughts, but do so respectfully.
Cheers.
For inquiries and collabs: twtw.mike@gmail.com
You have become the only watch channel I need in my life. Your videos feel more like a contemplation of life through the lense of watches. I really appreciate that.
Dude, this sounds like a bromance! ❤
The thinking mans's Pete McConvill
Him and Jeff Mcmahon
Glad you enjoy my videos 😀😀
I've been anti-homage until very recently.
Last year I purchased and quickly let go of a Tudor Pelagos 39. I enjoyed the watch for the summer, but it was not perfect for me to keep around: the glossy black dial on a tool watch didn't feel right; I wanted a date window; it had no no inner-chapter ring like on the normal Pelagos; and there is no blue option - all of this made it feel lackluster and a bit underwhelming to wear, especially for the price.
I recently discovered San Martin makes a well-regarded Pelagos 39 homage that comes with the chapter ring, option for date at 3 or 6, in gorgeous dark FXD blue or even a nice green, and in both titanium or stainless steel. I jumped right on it.
It just arrived last week and I'm very impressed. The bezel is snappy and perfectly lined up. The movement is plenty accurate for Seiko standards. And most importantly, it feels and looks great on wrist.
To me, San Martin beat Tudor at their own game in making the dream Pelagos I've always wanted. I'm a happy customer and will keep an eye out for their future releases.
That watch is San Martins best homage. And as you say, mix both the P42 and P39 together, to make the best of both worlds. A true homage watch, not a copy, as many seem to think a homage watch is. 🙏🙌
If the Pelagos 42 has the matt tool look, the dial, the date and the blue you want, just get the Pelagos 42 🤷♂️
@@GM-ii8gs "just get" a $4,000 oversized and outdated watch with no t-fit clasp or their new movement. I'm good.
Without a real Tudor there will be no Tudor pattern copies.
I feel the same way about my blue enamel San Martin "Ranger," they took the Tudor design and didn't replicate it, they improved it with applied indices and a variety of dial colors and a 38mm case (instead of the 39mm). They are doing a good job of listening to the market's reaction to watches and making the tweaks many of us want in their homage offerings.
I’ve got a San Martin BB58 homage in my wrist right now. I’ve really been enjoying it, while also understanding full well what it is and what it isn’t.
I grew to love the BB designs over the past year and I am saving up for one… but with my current income it will take me a few years to be able to afford the real thing! In the mean time, I am happy with what I’ve got.
I do want to pay more for the superior movements. I find value in the craftsmanship and quality of the original. But I’m limited by what I can afford right now, so I am happy to have an affordable option in the mean time.
And that is the winning comment. Bravo. Kudos to you and enjoy these watches for what they are. Eventually you might be fortunate enough to enjoy the real one. I am rooting for you!!
As an owner of a san Martin BB pro homage i will also add, that it is an effective way to get into GMT watches. And it keeps time better than an orient or Seiko at the same price. And most of the time when I wear my BB homage I just enjoy the fact that this watch gets things done.
Just don’t expect too much “craftsmanship and quality” from the original. I sometimes buy San Martin homages to “test drive” the originals before getting them and, aside from the movement, I’ve never found big differences in quality and finish.
Literally my only quibble with that is not going all the way with it. Like, if you don't care about the movement, then don't care about the movement, you know? Save your money and get a quartz. ESPECIALLY if it's a closed case back. You can get a smooooth sweep in a high beat quartz movement nowadays if that's a problem, but if you're buying a crap movement anyway, why care. A quartz will be more accurate, and infinitely less likely to break. Insisting on a mechanical/automatic movement when you have to say 'the movement isn't great but I don't care about the movement' makes no sense. Save your money. Like, they should be offering a quartz version of every one of their watches. There are cheap movements that are super cool looking. But if it isn't one of those cool looking ones, I don't understand why you'd bother, you know?
Excellent sentiment 😀
Interesting topic and video. Would like to add 2 things. 1) San Martin is not a watch “factory”. They assemble watches with parts made from other sub-suppliers. Yes, they spec many of the items to their requirements, but they just assembly the watches. 2) An homage doesn’t needs to be 100% alike the “original” to be a great homage. That’s actually the point, it’s supposed to take inspiration from the original and create their version of it. So when so many do not like the look of the helium escape valve, it’s fine to remove it. Same with rivets on the bracelet. Also it’s fine to use generic clasp. It’s suppose to be a homage and not a replica bar the brand name.
💯. To make it clear: when you buy a San Martin, you buy parts which cost SIX TIMES less + no service. They buy parts from elsewhere, put them together, and call it San Martin.
The point I don’t agree with is “I feel I support the designer and the engineers” when buying from big corporations, I worked enough in the corporate world to know it’s not exactly like that, it’s why I started collecting micro/independent watches, there it is true.
Truth. Thinking that buying from corporate is somehow “supporting designers and engineers “ is naive and a bit altruistic and delusional.
Whatever someone wants to tell themself to romanticise their own decisions is fine by me. The influence of marketing is powerful and the less spoken on matter of projecting an ethos to mask wanting to align with a particular narrative or brand via ideology is revealing as to the intoxicating influence of corporate shill and marketing.
No doubt - that there's a big difference between supporting the little guy vs supporting the conglomerate 😀
One supports "local economy" FIVE times more by choosing it over corporations
A friend of mine is a watchmaker in an authorized warrant service shop. His shop is authorized to provide warrant services on behalf of Richemont and Audemars Piguet. (Actually, they are the only one in Brazil).
He told me San Martin provides an excellent cost-benefit. In the middle range, I own Tag Heuer, Seiko, Hamilton. I would like to purchase a Panerai. But those crazy bastards raise their prices at each 3 months. It is getting impossible. Experts say that US and China are still buying a lot of their production yet. The last ten years were crazy for the watch industry.
Thanks for sharing - Interesting insights 😀
Your clarity, humility and total absence of prejudice is not seen on any other UA-cam channel, on any topic. Especially considering that you do have the money to buy luxury watches. Greetings from Argentina.
I can actually hear the ass-kissing sounds all the way over here in America
Mike,
Thank you for this thoughtful presentation.
One point I would like to bring up, that wasn’t discussed in the video, is the fact that the majority of watches sold around the globe are not purchased by watch enthusiasts. Overwhelmingly, consumers look for watches that are reasonably priced and reasonably reliable. The vast majority of consumers are not interested in brand history or watch movements. If you lose a $10,000 Rolex, you’re probably not going to replace it anytime soon. Lose a San Martin, and you can replace it today.
Something to think about.
Let alone if you're average customer could name a watch brand besides Casio (or possibly Rolex)
@@matricious Good Point. 👍👍👍
Very well put👌🏻!
Thankfully, for those that do care about history or originality, there are brands that give us that at the same price point. You don't have to choose between worrying about loosing the watch and getting an original design.
@@dhshatzer
What other brand offers the same level of quality and finishing
( at the same price )
Of a San Martin SN0129G
Or the new SN0130G.
There are none that come to mind.
If I’m missed a brand or two, please chime in. As far as I can tell, San Martin dominate the under $500 watch market in terms of quality with their bracelets and case finishing.
Baltany does unique homages and does a good job of using the right movement for the watch.
Baltany is an awesome brand. And it's probably the only chinese watch company whose name I don't really mind.
True … bought the „1921“ recently… brilliant executed, for a fraction of the VC price, ✌️
@@SunsetSheen Right, 90% of these need rebranding, Imagine pulling up anywhere in a “Gigididi” 😂
Their Tudor homage watches used to have the rivet bracelet, it wasn’t even fake, they were actual rivet screws. Their customers told them not to use the rivet bracelet as they didn’t want it. As nice as it is, I have two.
Your statement on original designs is the reason I became a fan of Aragon watches. Extremely affordable, good quality and original designs
I love them but usually too big
The two worst things about homage watches. 1) People that think it's basically Rolex or whatever brand minus the movement. 2) People that look down on others who buy them. I think homage watches are great. They can get people interested in watches and can provide a really solid watch for the price if you don't care about brand. I started off with Squale, San Martin, and Steinhart. I've sold them all and now own Tudor and Grand Seiko. To me, I think the best middle ground between high end and cheap are Seiko SPB line especially in the secondary market. Great video as always.
Agreed. However, Squale is a legitimate brand in its own right. If you choose one of their original designs. They have heritage and legit dive lineage.
I also moved away from Steinhart to Omega
But the lines are blurry. Plenty of people accuse Tudor of being a poor copy of Rolex
I have a Sub of late 80s vintage. I have a BB 54 and a Pelagos. Both newer vintange. Both Tudors blow away my Sub. Now I concide the comparison is apples to oranges. However, if we take a new BB at $3600 vs. a Sub at $12,000, well, it really is a no-brainer. The Tudor is a better option. I love my Sub, but they are not worth the price or headache to procure a new one. I absolutely LOVE my Pelagos. I don't think you need to choose one over the other. They are both legit brands with storied histories. For me, though, if I was going to drop $15,000 on a watch, it isn't going to be a Sub. Perhaps another model Rolex, but more likely another brand, which truly represents $15,000 value and quality. But that is just me. I own and wear what I find interesting. Be that a Casio or Rolex, and I could care less what others think. I am also a huge fan of Casio and Citizen. I have and wear much more expensive watches, but in the end, they just satisfy an itch. My current itch is an Omega Deville Tresore.
Agree. But i would love if microbrands in general avoid homages or styles that remind you of high end watches. I don't have any Studio Underdog watch because they are sold out every time i try to buy them, but the guy who designs them is really daring and honest; in fact, the Chinese are now imitating his watches. I love microbrands that try something relatively new; that's why i have a humble Mr Jones Mare Adesso, a Moels & Co, and a couple of colorful Farers that someone described, accurately, as children's watches. I would never buy anything that looks like a Tudor or a Rolex. In fact, i would never buy a real Rolex either: spending 10K on a watch is pure madness.
Fully agree. You eventually outgrow homages. I started with the Steinharts of the world and ended up with the real deals. There is no substitute.
Best and most thoughtful analysis on homage brands that I’ve seen on UA-cam. 😊
Thank you .😀
Interesting Chanel! I'm 75 years old had over 18 watches mostly Swiss brands from Rolex to Maurice Laxcrois, Junghans, Citizen and Seiko Dive watches(I was a Dive Instructor) and my experience they all break after a while and need service if you can obtain the spare parts? Eventually, I gave most away to my Family including my wife some were Gold watches. Now at my age, I want convenience and own a G-shock and a Fossil Pathfinder ( not the best brand )booth Eco-solar drive a point that was important to me and affordable and for the next 10 years no hassle. I did the rabbit hole it was fun for a while.
Thanks for stopping by 😃😃
As usual you open the window of the stuffy room that is inhabited by the majority of UA-cam watch reviewers.
Your videos are so impartial and balanced and above all intuitive. Its like having a lecture in business studies ( but way more entertaining)
They currency that you are dealing with here is trust. Youvare earning it by the bucket load.
Appreciated. I'm trying my best here... 😀😀
I'll be honest, I HAVE the money to buy an Omega or a Rolex (if Rolex were available at retail) but I CANNOT justify spending that money on a watch. I have other, much higher priorities like a wife who doesn't work, a son with special needs, a mortgage that I dream of paying off early, putting petrol in my car, putting money into my retirement fund etc - they will always come before an expensive watch.
In other words, while I have the money, I do NOT have so much that $10k, $15k or $20k is an insignificant amount to me. Even nice Seiko's cost thousands these days! Wearing a San Martin lets me enjoy the look and feel of a watch I love, without feeling like I'm trying to deceive anyone and without neglecting much more important priorities.
One day I will probably purchase an expensive Swiss watch but that day is still some way off.
Fantastic video mate, I enjoyed it immensely and I appreciate you being so fair. Well done.
I am sorry my friend but if you have a mortgage then you don’t have the money for a Rolex
Rolex are available at retail..they are just not available to you...Which is exactly the reason I will always buy Rolex. They keep the riff raff from buying retail. Learn the game son...
Really? People that have mortgages don't own Rolex watches? Are you sure about that?
@@thetruthhurts7500Sure. Except I don't believe you buy Rolex watches.
I'm watching this video for the 3rd time, coming back to it every couple of weeks
It really gives me an understanding of what the Chinese brands offer and don't offer
I have zero issue with homages. I think in many places it's quite frankly crazy to be wearing five figures on your wrist. In those instances a homage makes total and complete sense to me. Nevermind additional uses like figuring out what you like, getting into the watch game, etc.
Nobody care if you have any "issues" with homage watches because nobody cares about you period. That's the whole point. You are meaningless and so is your watch choice.
I think the thing we need to remember here is that every watch enthusiast is at a different point in their watch collecting.
Homage brands allow a first-timer access to designs and ideas that would normally take years to achieve. How are you supposed to know what you like or what your style is without trying on or buying an homage?
If the barrier for entry to “good design” and “quality” is several thousand dollars, then watch making and the entire industry is destined to fail.
Homage brands are the lifeblood of the industry. They drive people into the watch world and then, maybe not now but eventually, those people will stick around long enough to spend serious money on a very serious and original watch.
Or not. But either way, homage brands are good for the hobby.
Case in point:
I thought I was a dive watch guy. Had only homage watches or original design dive watches for the bulk of my collection. I bought the Pagani Design Speedmaster Homage for like $65. And suddenly it hit me; I’m a Chrono guy. I freaking love a Chronograph. On paper, it wasn’t for me. But in the metal, on the wrist, wearing it day in and day out I realized what it was all about.
So I passed that watch along and bought a Speedmaster. You could have given me 100 years of watch collecting, and I never would have bought a Speedy. But getting to try one out for a low cost of entry in an homage immediately convinced me to buy the real thing. Because I finally got it and understood what it would feel like to have one without having to drop $5,000 on a watch I wasn’t sure I would love.
@@douglascheesman Great point!
This, it is how i got into watches, i didn't want to spend 500 bucks on a Seiko or something else. Ended up with a Speedy chrono mechaquartz from pegani design for ~130.
It is a great way to develop your tastes in watches, i didn't know if i would enjoy a hand-wind movement as winding it everyday could be a chore. So bought a Hroudland and loved it, the clicking of the mech when you turn it is a really nice feeling. Also realised i didn't enjoy integrated bracelets/butterfly clasps.
You get ideas of what fits you, what doesn't without spending a lot of money, while still getting decent movements that will last.
@@TheNoe123212321 Very true.
For me I believe homage and replica brands have a place and I tend to believe that it's not just a "parasitic" relationship but actually a "symbiotic" relationship.
Homages / Replicas cannot exist without the original. There has to be something desirable that not everyone can attain.
But on the other hand. The existence of the replica validates the desirability of the original. 😀
Very well stated. I think people get this argument wrong a lot on both sides (anti-homage and anti-luxury), neither are bad, they just offer different things and it comes down to preference and what you find important. For me I have both, (to be fair the expensive stuff I own I've received as gifts, the cheap stuff I bought myself). But I find I wear the cheaper stuff more often (more micro-brands than Chinese homages, but I have some of those too). I own 3 San Martin watches and all of them are shockingly good and I really like all of them. My current favorite watch is a San Martin, which took a Tudor design (39mm Ranger) that I've always liked and fixed the stuff I didn't like about it (printed dial and lack of color choices, and San Martin took the case down to 38mm). This thing is GD beautiful! I like the applied indices better than the printed dial on the Tudor and the blue enamel dial is amazing and changes the look dramatically from the black Tudor. Nobody would mistake this thing for a Tudor (and I wouldn't want them to). Buy what you like and enjoy!
I have a San Martin with sellita movement,and it runs within COSC parameters. It is a 62MAS homage that even improves the original watch and of course the official Seiko reissues that are oversized and are extremely expensive limited editions.
I own Omega, Breitling, DOXA, Christopher Ward and others at various price points. The bronze San Martin homage of the Captain Willard I own was cheap and looks fantastic. Would I buy a Captain WIllard at the current price of approx. £1000? Not a chance. So, the San Martin scratches an itch and I enjoy wearing it. I feel very differently, however, about my Omega Seamaster, Breitling Colt Chrono and DOXA Sub 300. These watches have heritage and lots that the homages simply don't and it's not even necessarily anything tangible. There's plenty of room for both homage and original watches. I love both for lots of completely polarised reasons. Thanks for another fantastic video.
Christopher Ward? LOL
@@thetruthhurts7500dang you’re such a letdown man 🤣
Love watching your channel...such a soothing voice describing my passion for watches...funny how youtube brings out the best in normal everyday people, great stuff👍👍😁😁
Thanks for watching!😀
I don’t see a reason to pay 1000s of dollars for a good watch. I like to use the watch in the ocean, at the beach or at work. I want a companion I can take everywhere and if time has come letting have its rest. With expensive watches I’d give them more attention and I don’t want that. Plus most expensive watches fulfill the purpose of flexing in general or getting attention from watch lovers - a very niche group of people.
One day you will...You just need some time to grow up.
San Martin have been making original design lately and they're good. The finishing on their watches are better than most "swiss" brands and even better than seikos
grateful！😊
Seikos are garbage
I did pull the trigger and buy a san martin. It was the zulu timer homage and I absolutely love it. The finishing, the bracelet quality, the regulation they do to the movement and the premium materials they use.
So bottom line is, ur getting far more for far less. Keep up the good work and looking forward to more of your videos.
Absolutely a pleasure to watch your videos, share your experience and the tone of your voice makes them great to listen !
thanks 😀
I am not interested in inflated Swiss prices, expensive marketing hype, mystical histories, expensive stores and huge profits. I want a quality watch at a fair price. Why should I care that Rolex lied about going to the top of Mount Everest?
I have only one San Martin, their interpretation of the Tudor Ranger.
For me it’s a weird situation, this specific watch is not a homage, as the San Martin has so many differences from the Tudor: is 36mm, has applied indices, shows a different case structure and even uses different polishing techniques.
In my opinion this one is an entirely different watch from the Tudor, with just what I would like from the Ranger, but that Tudor doesn’t get to produce.
Watches like this one, for me, are an improvement to the original watch and not a homage, and if they continue delivering as well as they do with this one, I would keep buying them.
A homage watch does not mean it should be a 1:1 copy. It’s a watch that takes inspiration from the original and creates a version from it. So the SM 36mm Ranger is absolutely a homage watch, in the best way. It’s a good example of what a homage watch really is. 🙏
Just wait a decade or two until the Chinese really hit the mark with in-house movements. Assuming build quality and finishing continues to advance, too. We saw the Japanese revolution of the late 60s and 70s with the coming of quartz, and we may perhaps be on the verge of a new revolution. This time centered on Chinese advances sufficient to challenge Swiss luxury brands. True Swiss luxury brands, not just entry and mid-level. Only time will tell. No pun intended. I, for one, welcome that challenge. It can only benefit us as owners and enthusiasts.
Grand Seiko have proven that a Japanese watch company can be every bit as good as most Swiss watchmakers if not better than most.
There is no reason that a Chinese watchmaker cannot do the same thing fairly quickly if they had the desire to enter the luxury scene.
Amazing presentation again. No other channel explains the intricacies of the watch business like this. Just a pleasure to listen to. Keep up this excellent work.
Much appreciated! 😃
Thanks Mike! I think I couldn't stand the look of it on my wrist but the balanced way you presented the topic was really intriguing
Fair enough - and thanks 😀
Indeed Mike, once again you get to the crux of the matter succinctly. Lots of food for thought. Thank you Chris
Thanks for video because I found it a very valuable and insightful assessment and contrast of the subtle nuances between homages and the name brand originals. God bless.
Cheers 😀
Totally agree with you, Mike, but you put it more eloquently than I would.
Very kind of you, thanks 😀
Actually I want my products to reflect the cost of the quality of manufacturing...and not lots of money spent on marketing hype.
Very good vid Mike. You covered almost all angles.
Thanks 👍
I have the Tissot and Versace watches. And Invicta, Bulova, Fossil, Elgin and Kenneth Cole Tommy Hilfiger and more
Thanks for giving us your view on San Martin. They seem to be on every watch reviewers channels radar right now so there’s a lot of noise muddying our perceptions. Your videos always force me rethink about relevant points that are missed by others. Also cool mechs in the background.
Glad it was helpful 😀
Thanks Mike, I love your approach. You are never cutting corners and giving an easy and superficial answer to the questions but you dig deeper into it.
In reality you do what I like the most: you don't give answers but you help viewers to think about the answer themselves (which is what I always try to do with my team at work).
"don't give them a fish but teach them how to fish" ;-)
p.s. and I also feel you are not trying to sell me a watch or a brand because they support you.
thanks - For me my videos are not about me professing a "truth" but rather sharing a perspective. I try to have the facts down, but it is just about seeing it from an angle and then allowing for people to make up their own minds. 😀😀
Love your discussion. Brilliant thoughts.
There is a fundamental material cost - and the homage brands demonstrate that the material cost is low. You then have to look at what you are buying in to beyond the purely material - and this is where the watch industry excels at selling dreams/lies (however you choose to interpret it). One particular point raised in the video is the issue of original design and cost - yet no one can point to the industry and say that there has been marked innovation of any real kind. Thus, by this logic, Tudor is offering no more than subtle reflections on Rolex (homage) whilst allowing Rolex to push the price up to maintain an 'exclusive brand' status. The idea that Rolex / Tudor boardrooms are not involved in discussing such issues merely reinforces the point that 'smoke and mirrors' exist and operate - and likely across the industry. In a recent video a well known watch commentator opined that the reduction in sales in mechanical watches could only be tackled by raising the prices on existing watches in order to make as much money as possible from any existing sales.
A better example of brand / market suicide is hard to think of - the quartz crisis was a long time ago and there is only so much 'myth' you can pump in to an (already) mythologicaly inflated market.
Rob --
i concur on your observations for the firms, but have a slightly different view from the consumer end. My answer to "when buying a mechnical watch today, what -- exactly -- are consumers paying for?" is nothing other than "a piece of art on the wrist". Sure they have some utility, but vastly less than easily obtainable via quartz or -- Gawd help us -- smart watches for more modest expenditure.
But that is okay. What use are cuff links or ties? Have you priced a silk tie lately?
On my wrist at the moment is a SM homage to a 1950s brand R GMT Master model, with the GMT bezel set to Eastern Europe. "Yes" i can see both my time and those of a client i have at a glance. But there dozens of Casio or Citizen models that will do the same more accurately for less than the $350 i paid. For me mainly it is lovely to look at. For others, the same is true but they will pay factors of 30+ to have "Brand R" on the dial. Then there was Sam Walton, who wore a brand R watch . . . which he concealed with a Timex band . . .
Getting back to your closing observation: what controls the ability of luxury manufacturers to raise prices? The answer is customer demand resistance ("elasticity"), and nothing contributes to that more than the availability of close substitutes . . . like SM . . . So even if you buy brand R, you should be thankful for the homage marketplace. Something tells me that, as a group, they don't recognize that, but Sam Walton would have.
-- gary
This is your first video I've ever watched. I enjoyed hearing your thoughts on the topic and will subscribe. Cheers to you, friend.
Outstanding analysis and perspective. I do find it interesting that many humans get so wrapped up in what others think or perceive what they think others think re: watches. Many mistakenly put way too much emphasis and credence around other’s opinions and judgments vs. Buying what they like. I have plenty of money to buy most luxury watches, but I am not willing to pay for the added expense. Paying way more to “flex” seems so externally focused to me.
I have sprung for original, expensive watches, so there are times it feels worth it. I also own homages when it hasn't felt worth it, but I always remember that the homage would be nothing without the original design.
No one would want an homage if it didn't echo the real thing in some way.
Interesting to me are the well made affordable microbrands, no need to spend five or twenty five grand or more, you're personally supporting an original creator, and worth the money, even when a thousand dollars.
Subscribed.
GREAT CONTENT!
Fair and balanced as always. Thank you
Always 😀
In amongst about 100 watches I have 20 very different Aragons… I luv the crazy purples, oranges, pinks… the different designs… such fun watches… low-priced enough that I even lend them to people to wear for weeks at a time…!!! For not a lot of money I have an absolute blast… 👍😊
Great vid, small correction tho: 316L steel is a bit harder than 904L steel. I think luxury brands sacrifice some hardness in favor of corrosion resistance. In time, the steel in a Rolex will look better, beyond its give finishing and normal wear and tear.
I agree with what you say. I've bought myself a Pagani Design homage to the legendary "Steve McQueen" Explorer II, and though it looks good, is hard to coneect emotionally with it.
90% agree with you! Great topic, excellent video. It's a pleasure to hear you talk about watches and it helps me practice English 😁. Greetings from Argentina!
Thanks - and you're doing well. I would not have known had you not stated it 💪💪💪
Every time I get wrapped around the axel on watches (especially reading forums), I come watch one of your videos and appreciate the commons sense. Keep keepin' on, man.
will try 😀😀😀
Never thought of the fashion runway analogy, but then again, I don’t dress so guud.
I am a style icon, don't ya know? 😂😂
Very accurate, however leaving aside certain brands many swiss watches have the same movement that are made in mass nothing special about it anymore, but the price is still very high, in the end we pay for the "heritage", is in this thing that the chinesse people see a market oportunity. Also exists many microbrands with own designs that are very well. The main complain about watches market are the "Swiss made" legend cost a lot for a product that in many cases is not handmade anymore but the price mantains as if it was.
Great review and perspective. I am one those who always swore by swiss brands and have some swiss pieces from omega to longines to tissot but have grown to enjoy and like San Martin. For the price and finish, that's what you are going for, it can't be beat and may have a nh34 or nh35 movement but its reliable and less expensive to maintain if anything does go wrong. I get a scratch or ding on it, not too annoyed with it, whereas when i do with my longines or omega I sort of do given what I paid for it. To each its own and 100% true, I concur "buy what you like/love", its going on your wrist so should be proud to wear it and not what the watch herd says you should wear. As watch collectors, pieces come and go as your journey continues and watch tastes change over time. For myself, even every few years. Keep up the great work. Cheers!
I love the way you make me think beyond a review. Why do I spend money on relatively cheap mechanical watches ? Maybe it's the reason I also love vinyl. Single malt. Real leather shoes. I scrape by with what I earn,but I buy what I can afford when I can. There is something about paying attention to how you choose items. Take care of it (maintenance if you will). The emotion of using it, and reading/listening to other like minded people , as their preferences. Good work !
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts 😀
Your basic take, often, is a humanistic one: buy what you like and spend what you feel you can afford. I agree with that, wholeheartedly. SM and other Chinese brands offer watch enthusiasts an opportunity to acquire attractive watches that generally work well. I can buy a Subaru SUV that has a decent design or a Porsche SUV that has higher quality components, goes faster and costs more to buy AND to own. Not exactly the same metaphor as the Picasso print. I just bought a Baltany Homage to a Hamilton military watch. $135 vs. $600. I could have afforded the Hamilton, but the Baltany was not only cheaper - in my opinion, it was actually better in some ways. But that's just an anomaly; most SM homages are many thousands of dollars cheaper than their iconic inspirations and I would never spend that kind of money on a watch, but I'm happy to spend $200 on a SM homage that looks great - works well and if someone rips it off my wrist, I won't be devastated. I totally agree it would be lovely to support designers and engineers if I could but my guess is I'll only do that for a Formex or a Henry Archer or a Farer (and the like) - where the balance of creativity and originality and design doesn't come at Rolex or Omega prices. No matter what, I truly appreciate your thoughts and presentation.
Thanks - and thanks for sharing 😀
Good video and discussion.
I like and have both.
They serve difference purposes.
My Seamaster 2254.50, explorer 2 16570 and FXD are original designs that cannot be substituted by a homage for me. I have them because they call to me
My San Martin SN0138 is a homage to a watch that kind of doesn't exist - a 37mm BB58 with a ceramic bezel. A BB58 or BB54, in their current iterations, is not on my wishlist at the moment. But I love that I get to experience how amazing a decent on-the-fly micro-adjust bracelet is (man is it good, a game-changer)
The San Martin BB Pro homage is also something I enjoy, because although I like the design, I’d never by the Tudor, because I have a polar Explorer 2.
Wow! This is by far the most comprehensive and well articulated explanation of the reality and contrast between the Chinese homage watch industry vs original brand watch manufacturers. Absolutely phenomenal presentation. Kudos Mike.
I own both. A few high end Swiss Made luxury watches which have great significance to me, and i also own lots of Chinese homages, with San Martin, Proxima, and Seestern being my favorites. I also own lots of microbrands and mid range name brands such as Seiko, Casio, Bulova, Citizen, etc.
I love watches and appreciate it them all for what each offers.
At any rate, i just discovered your channel Mike, and have subscribed. Looking forward to many more of your videos.
Thanks you and regards.
Thanks 😃
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch👍🙌
brilliant analysis as always,❤
Cheers 😀
My pleasure 👍
I have owned many, but now only buy original designs. I now have two of them, and their finishing and spec is just amazing. I would like to see them use some better movements though
I bought a homage of the Serica 5303 with a Selita movement, when Serica failed in giving a movement that works and refused to fix it. I also bought a Selita movement in a Engineer Iwc homage when I found out the price because I like the design but would feel less of an idiot with a homage with a decent movement.
Besides that I am new to collecting and sticking to Seiko LX Springdrive , Citezin promaster and Glycine
This is an amazing conversation. I do own a San Martin, and I appreciate it for what it is. I also own Omega SM300, PO600, Speedy Professional, Seamaster Railmaster, and a DateJust. Your conversation on the engineering and design prompted me to put on a Citizen Eco Drive Racer Chrono which I love. It's an awesome watch - original design, chrono function, date, alarm, decent bracelet, and solar power. Cheap to most watch snobs, but it's a watch that is completely original and could do whatever I asked it to do at a reasonable price with beautiful panda style. Bonus - 200m WR.
I'm not against a homage at all as long as it's not pretending to be more. I'd rather someone wear that than an Apple Watch, but you reminded me that affordability and originality can live together.
San Martin also just started coming out with original watches which are equally exceptional. With these watches there really isn't much of an argument against purchasing them.
I have a San Martin explorer 1016 homage with a custom logo and SW200. Great little watch which feels very close to the original.
Very interesting video. I appreciate your views and opinions on this topic. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it .😀
Excellent video Mike! I was hoping you’d dive deeper into this. The stigma is so bad that some UA-camrs refrain from even acknowledging their existence 🤔.
A topic request for consideration that is sorta related: Ball Watch Company is very polarizing in the community. I’ve seen comments like “they are Chinese faking heritage” as a reason not to buy it. It makes me think about other brands like Laco where people won’t buy it due to past ties even though the people today are not the same. Yet, conversely Invicta is definitely a different direction than their legacy days. Brands and logos stir so much perception. Don’t know where I’m going with this but it does make my brain light up and I’m sure many of us would like to hear your thoughts!
Without explicitly saying so, you put on the table something relevant in this industry. It’s not only about the watch itself, but at least in a similar proportion about the owner, and the knowledge and expertise he has to understand and value the details a nuances.
Bingo. Where I live the saying is "you're throwing pearls at pigs". IT takes time to learn to appreciate nuance 😃
I own the BB pro and I own the San Martin homage of it as a beater there is no comparison the Tudor is miles ahead in quality , fit and finish and of course the movement but I do see San Martin as a gateway for people to try the homage whilst deciding if they want the real thing.
I would venture to guess that vast majority of buyers are not N Americans nor Western Europeans.
They may never be able to afford a Tudor, et al.
I actually have money for the BB pro, and almost went and bought it. But the dimensions just arent right for me. The San Martin BB pro homage has the slimmer, more elegant dimensions I would expect from Tudor. But Tudor is hands down better quality, its also about 30 times as expensive
@@simonrodriguez7204 the fact that you have the money for it means that you’re wise with your money.
Only you can and should define your happiness.
Enjoy whichever guilt free:)
@@KC-bv9kf Thanks man. Cheers :)
Thanks for sharing your personal experience of the quality differences 😀
Oh man, I've been waiting for you to weigh in on this one! I'm a big fan of San Martin, Pagani, and one-off, occasional Ali watch!
This was a really great video. My dream/fantasy watch has always been a Rolex Submariner in Titanium. So far they haven't made it but maybe one day. Well San Martin did. Well technically it's a vintage Sea Dweller 116600 but it's close enough. It's an absolutely beautiful watch in grade 5 Titanium with a Sellita SW200 movement. This is why I love San Martin and all homage watch makers.
The wine analogy is great. Also, both are not essential and overconsumption could be harmful (health wise or financially). I see no point in buying a San Martin compulsively off Aliexpress when I can indulge myself with a reputable watch I like to encapsulate a meaningful moment of my life. In a way, value AND value
Good video. I would only add that plenty of brand names have made homages too (Seiko and Timex etc). But you're right - just wear the watch you like. And don't worry about it.
Love your videos mate!
Glad you like them! 😀
I have nothing against such watches, but I am more of a person who enjoys originality and fine details.
to each their own as always 😊
and men
Hi love your show, I have Omega but bought a Pagani GMT because I love the look and it has been surprisingly good I'm very impressed with it
Thanks for sharing 😀
Thank you for the fair, even-handed, and thoughtful discussion. I own quite a few homages and, so far, only 1 Swiss watch. I do miss some of the finer points, the original in-house movements with unique features such as complications and long power reserves, etc. I don't even really compare San Martin et al with the luxury Swiss brands at their stratospheric price ranges. What they are most likely to displace in my collection are the brands like Seiko, which deliver poor materials and poor quality in the same price range.
Thanks for sharing 😀
Excellent perspective!
Glad you enjoyed it 😀
Good points and I think a homage with a distinctive flair more unique to the company who makes it, is always nice. Wearing a Casio Duro currently, blue dial and bezel, has decent lume for the cost and quality-feeling clicks on the bezel, polished and brushed stainless steel with crown guards + 200m water resistance, all for under $50. Yes it’s quartz but I know many have one in their collection, the sunburst dial and marlin on the dial+caseback are Casio’s signature spin on it, shame this model is no longer in production
Great episode!
thanks 😀
Hey Mike, great video as always! I have an idea for a future video: a line chart showing the perceived value of brands over the decades. The x-axis would represent the decades, and the y-axis would show the rankings, with the brands indicated in the legend. I've never seen a video on this topic, and it would be interesting to examine how these rankings have changed over the decades and discuss some of the reasons behind these changes. I have seen Morgan Stanley's rankings, but I do not think they go too far back and they do not focus on percieved value - only the best-selling watch brands in terms of revenue and units. What do you think is the best measure to evaluate percieved value? Is it re-sale value or something else? I think you would be the perfect UA-camr to take this on. Cheers.
Very good points here, thank you, on a topic that is much discussed. San Martin is an interesting case study, and one that will likely grow in significance to watch enthusiasts. I, too, also like supporting the designers and the engineers of the original ideas and, especially, the original designers on the earlier iterations. I especially appreciate joining a line of consumers that have shown enthusiasm for a particular design for several decades. It means participating in a modern, human story. Another point is on quality itself and how much it costs. When we purchase a $300 homage watch and compare it to a $3,000 original we are gratified by the fact that the cheaper watch offers (usually) far more quality than its 1/10 price would suggest. Cost increases to achieve quality increases are not linear, they are exponential. A 10% increase in quality will likely cost 50% more to achieve. A 100% increase, 1000% increase, and so on. Just rough numbers but the idea is important because quality has its own, steeper cost curve, and this idea not widely appreciated by many watch reviewers and enthusiasts. All the best.
Agree on your way of seeing it. 1/10 does not mean 1/10 of the quality. Cheers .😀
You consistently nail it on every hot watch topic. I've owned Steinhart homages and it never feels quite right. Even understanding the financial and business side of things, it always just feels like "you couldn't afford the real thing." I've gotten into countless arguments with friends trying to justify the cost of a luxury watch. The difference is really in how we view watches - a simple tool that tells time and doubles as a fashion accessory, or a piece of mechanical and functional art. I'd rather lust over watches I can't afford while owning original designs within my budget, than "fake it till I make it." It feels that much more rewarding when you can finally afford that grail.
Thanks 😃
Excellent video once again. I couldn't agree more. As value for money is very close to the top of my priority list, I have no problem buying a San Martin. I'm just waiting for them to release one of their 'original design' (idk if it actually is or not) watches that really appeal to me. The SN0129 was very close... but not quite.
Well, that was the one mostly shown in the video, ironically an original on display when Mike was just talking about homages. Anyway,, I own the original designs SN0026 and SN0033, both very nice watches. The first release of their Jianghun subrand, the "war drum", was a big miss though.
@@balthazarbeutelwolf9097 The next model will be coming soon😉
@@JianghunWatch I hope the new one is better. SM have shown they can do original designs well now, after a few false starts.
There's a reason I chose the year of the dragon watch - because it's original and I thought it looked quite cool. Not my "style" but I thought it was quite interesting 😀
Mike, first off, I appreciate your commentaries, opinions, and knowledge on horology, that's in addition to the fun European accent for me (maybe you find the US accent interesting as well). I find your comments generally very thoughtful, and I can see you try to be balanced (but I subscribe to the general notion that no one is completely unbiased.) I am Chinese, and I did NOT know enough of San Martin to realize its Chinese origin. Your video here certainly give me pause. So, beyond the positive aspect of educating the consumer, I will offer (without any solicitation on anyone's part) two points on made in China, and in particular to homage watches. 1) China is a developing country, and while it might be advanced in certain areas, it is a developing country. Just look at its per capita income and the country-side of China. There is quite a difference between US countryside vs. Chinese countryside. China is developing, and my point is simply that for a developing country, the emphasis is NOT the finer things of life. I am Chinese raised in HK, so I cannot completely speak for my ancestral countrymen, but from what I can see, the quintessential Chinese in the mainland cares for the essential. You can present them with the finer things of life, but they do NOT really appreciate them because it is about making money or survival, or making the first very bucket of gold (pardon the generalization, there is always the exceptions.) There is A LOT of dignity for people crossing the street in the US, but there is no such dignity thing in China. Finer things of life is a by-product of fulfilling the basics and more, so finer watches or dignity (a nebulous concept) are not that important to the general public (again excluding the richer folks.) I, as their fellow countrymen, will NOT blame them. I would be the same have I stayed in China. Yes, you certainly touch on that, and I am reinforcing your notion from the angle of a country development cycle. If you look at US at the wild wild West era, you will see a lot of crude things going on as well. 2) This is the Internet age, where information is proliferated. It is in Rolex, Omega obligation to give the general public a proper education of why they are better, in addition to their heritage and history, etc. Why obligation - because that's respecting their customers, and not believe me Rolex and pay the premium. (NOTE: I have NEVER been inside a Rolex store, may be that's where you get the education, so I just shoot myself in the foot here. I am aware of that possibility) Nonetheless, we all comparison shop or better yet value shop. I DO NOT mind paying a bundle more if I know there is all these under finer things going on. However, are these finer things (etching or heat-treated color, etc) are truly better and worth that much extra bundle, it is arguable and it is up to the consumer value perspective. You may have touched upon that ... that there is a component (emotional?) that cannot be easily quantified, which again is up to the individual. Both Rolex and San Martin need to educate their intended market (which your video accomplishes on Rolex's behalf,) but for me, I can pay a bundle for the finer things that you San Martin may not know or appreciate, so education is an aspect that need to be done. You have pulled your share of the load.
However, the sky is not the limit for the premium. The finer thing premium curve has a diminishing rate of return beyond a certain point, and this point is different for different individual for a variety of reasons. Rolex will always has its market, but the good microbrands are capitalizing on this premium curve that give its consumers the many finer points with reasonable value. Again, just reiterating a point that you certainly have alluded in your other videos. Your value-related videos are very insightful and helpful, for whatever it is worth to tell you at this point ... cheers.
Very interesting topic Mike. I don't own any homage watches but I do see their place in the watch market. I agree with you on the difference between a homage and a replica. I wish more people would realize the difference.
Best regards, Brian
People get so upset about homage watches although they are the best VFM out there. Corvette completely homages Ferrari designs, yet no one say anything. SpringField Armory completely Homages Colt’s 1911 and people love it….This is the only (Watches) industry of snobs that have such a problem with homages. San Martin makes a great watch full stop homage or original. The Swiss need to take notice that normal people are tired of paying their ridiculous prices, heritage or not. It’s still just an accessory at this point.
Good video but I think you missed one very interesting/important aspect: Some of these brands, and San Martin in particular, are more and more moving away from the homage game and SM has launched several models of their own now with quite some success. Give them two more years to nail their own design language and then entry level luxury brands from Seiko to Tissot may slowly be getting into some trouble. It will be interesting to see how all of this plays out.
True - There's a reason I included the SM chinese new year watch in the video as b-roll. I think it's a cool original design 😃
Great video, thank you!
Congrats my friend!! Great episode!!! You managed to keep it simple and objective! 🎉❤ I own several San Martins and Tudor/Omega as well. In the end is a matter of choice and taste. I agree with your point. 🤜🏻🤛🏻🙌🏻
Thanks for watching! 😃
Mike, Once again, a great perspective on the value of both ends of the spectrum. Much appreciated. All of the inuendos you mentioned are true - and I, like you, appreciate the "masters" who actually dreamed up what finally becomes a watch on your wrist. You, almost offhandedly, mentioned that a watch is really not a necessity (paraphrased, of course) in today's age. Which brings me to another argument you made in a previous video. You mentioned that the price is relevant to who is actually putting out the money. For a millionaire, a Rolex is a nice daily wear watch. For "Joe 6-pack," a Rolex is an Abhorrent amount to pay for a watch, but a San Martin fits the budget and makes sense. My collection is nothing in comparison to yours (I'm guessing - you don't parade your collection) with the high-dollar watch at $1,300, but I enjoy what is on my wrist for more emotional reasons - not current market value. Would I have a Rolex if money was no object - absolutely. But money is an object, and I remain in a "state of peace" where I am. So, I enjoy the background and ingenuity of Rolex (and other top brands), but I am happy when I look at my wrist and see the second hand sweeping softly. Time marches on, regardless of what I am wearing.
I'd still like to know what your impression of the Ginault "Silent Service" is.................
Go shit in your hat.
The point about 90 click bezels, ghost date positions etc. are exactly what puts me off. I have bought some of the copy and paste jobs but I can't get my head round ignoring such sloppiness no matter how good a watch looks. I avoid the ones with those "faults". I still think there is a lot of value to be found in mainstream Japanese brands with the discounts to be found at present. Personally I find an Orient Kamasu or a Citizen "Lefty" Promaster at around £180 more compelling than a Chinese clomage.
Seiko too... although they are getting a bit pricey 😀
Been collecting for years , but can honestly say san martin etc are unbelievable for the money. And the biggest plus point is you dont have to worry about them. That said an original design by a top swiss maker , is a different level , and generally makes you feel special to own one . Are they worth the extra premium , which can be 20x the amount , because of the original design and marketing costs , well thats up to you as a consumer .
I don’t care about wearing an homage…I’ll never buy a Swiss watch after finding San Martin. So so nice.
Thanks for this.
I've only owned one homage watch in my life--a Baltany 1921 American Driving Watch, and when the original design is over a century old I'd suggest the IP is in the public domain so any sense of supporting the originality of the design team dissipated decades ago. That homage was sufficiently well executed on so many different levels that I'm going to buy another Baltany watch--one of their 'own' design models, to see how they are climbing the ladder of skill complexity you so accurately describe. On reflection, what you described somewhat resembles where the Japanese automakers were a half century ago in terms of Western markets.
BTW, a window on what the Chinese watchmakers may do down the road/are capable of now can be found in the domestic market production of companies like Tiajin Seagull (its watches, not the movements, which frequently found in the Pagani, San Martin, etc. homage makers). You may find the Seagull field watches or dive watches generic or derivative, but they aren't homages, and when the Chinese go off in their own direction, a great deal of the resulting stuff has cultural references that don't mean much to a western audience (TV screen test pattern, anyone?). Of course, the West isn't the intended market, and I'm not sure if those guys are part of the international dialogue or even want to be.
I have their Dirty Dozen homage w quartz movement. I like it
Well said, as usual. Thanks.
Much appreciated 😀
I owned several San Martins that just left me a little unsatisfied. Something just wasn’t quire right, and I sold them.
The best Chinese homage I saw in real life is a Seestern Nomos Tangente homage I gave my son. Idk how long it will last but it really looks very good.
Tudor is a Rolex homage, expensive one🤣
created by the same person not by China
@@user-sm2ws2nq8k so it’s ok as long as you are not Chinese and expensive?
@@user-sm2ws2nq8k homage is inspired design, Tudor is old Rolex , fancy homage with a different brand and price tag that’s it….
@@user-sm2ws2nq8kThat is what the Swiss made you think.
Very interseting video. One point I’d like to add is that San Martin is increasingly producing original designs and even recently introduced their own microbrand celebrating Chinese culture, Jianghun. I’m interested to see where they go.
Thanks. Yes - I know. I featured 1-2 different original San Martins in the video for that reason. I'd like them to do more of that 😃
My homage watch is a Smiths PRS-29A. It is a wonderful little 36mm hand wind watch, and it allows me to wear a lovely watch while i save for that Explorer or whatever other special piece
(Although it's different to a standard hommage, as it recreates an older Smiths watch, albeit apparently made in Hong Kong)
36mm? I'm assuming you are a woman?
I wish I were strong-willed enough to enjoy homages. But I'm not.
Very good statement. Finally someone with a brain
I really love this video. I appreciate your down to earth view on San Martin and the major manufacturers. But I do feel that you are missing a rather large piece of the puzzle. All the micro brands that are pushed by 99% of all the other UA-cam creators. They speak poorly of San Martin, and other Ali express watches, yet reccomend micro brands that use the same movements and are priced at 10 times the cost.
I’m fairly new to this hobby, and when I was ready to get a quality time piece, I was very disappointed to find out that in house movements were not as common as I thought. That a 40hr power reserve was something that a $200 watch and $3000 watch shared.
You have a valid point. There are a lot of smaller brands that source entirely from china, from shenzen particularly and from the same places that get their stuff from San Martin - and they charge a higher price. 😃
Top video, presented by a top man.
Thank you.
Thank you too 😀😀