I have over a dozen Chinese watches ranging from $65 to 300 retail cost. Most have Seiko mvmts, including MecaQuartz chronos. Some have PT5000 Chinese high beat mvmts. Every one of these will lose value over time. But none of them need to ever see the inside of a jewelry store, let alone cost $1000 to service. None are insured or need to be kept in a safe. Every one of them can be brought back from all but the most brutal treatment by someone with minimal skills for under $100. Most of them run within 5 seconds/day of any 5 figure Rolex. All have sapphire crystals, at least 100m claimed WR and all the same materials as most other brands use. So, until I decide that storing wealth on my wrist is wiser and more fun than putting it on my walls or in my garage, ...and until people evolve way better eyes to notice or care anyway, I'll take 90% of a Rolex for 1% of the costs and headaches any day. I understand the principle of diminishing returns. But looking at a good $300 Chinese watch up against a $25,000 Swiss watch and it starts looking unjustifiably insane. Watches shouldn't be viewed as commodities.
@@petem.3719 thanks for your personal and subjective opinion. While i disagree with your assessment and advice, i appreciate the thought behind your comments. God bless.
I recently sold a couple of my san Martins,, which definitely are exceptionally well finished for the price point, but honestly after a while I couldn't continue enjoying them, because everytime I looked at my wrist I saw nothing, no heritage, just some nice steal finishing and a relatively good ar coating. After selling them I added a bit of money and acquired a first watch in the 1 to 2k range and I can confirm it is completely different in a good way. Sure the prices are more than often not justified with a lot of well known brands, but generally when you handle a proper watch with a decent movement and history you will definitely feel the difference in quality.
I no longer bother with the likes of Seiko, Citizen, Tissot, or other affordable brands from Japan or Switzerland, brands like San Martin, Rmalti, Rdunae, Hruodland, Seagull, Seestern, from China are killing it with better quality at better prices.
one thing people do not mention is how the Seiko NH35/36 movement changed a lot for Chinese watches, you have a reliable Japanese movement that can go for donkeys years and is cheap. building affordable watches around that movement helped a lot of Chinese brands come up with budget bangers.
Although lacking the durability record of the Seikos, the Eta 2824 high beat clones now give them a cheap high beat option. San Martin, Ixdao, Proxima and Cronos all use a ($60) PT5000 movement in $125-300 watches that put Seiko to shame and rival Swiss models costing 10x as much. Chinese watches have improved enormously in just the last 5 years. If they ever figured out that QC thing and eliminated the crapshoot factor, China could capture nearly the entire market for watches not named Rolex or Omega.
@sotecluxan4221 I have a Seiko5 with a LS26 mvmt.. I bought it for $52 on sale at Amazon in 2018. It's pushing $200 today. I got a Chinese homage of that watch with better specs, a NH36, a sapphire crystal and a metal band for under $85. Fit, finish and alignment was better than either of the two $300 Seiko chronographs I sent back for those issues.
I got into Steeldives because a lot of non-Chinese watch reviewers in UA-cam like the brand's products. So I thought it wouldn't be so bad buying some Steeldives. 2.5 years have passed and so far not a single problem with all four of my Steeldives. They don't cost much at all and if something goes wrong with them it's no big deal.
@ajbones4207 Not the same company. Addiesdive is a split off company from Steeldive. I like their stuff better. Better finishing and they may even regulate some. I get +/- 1 or 2 s/d on a couple.
I have a couple Steeldives, inc the famed SD1970 "Capt. Willard", so I can relate. But now it's time to step up to the premium Ali brands. Catch a sale and spend the extra 100 to put a 28800 beat Proxima or SM on your wrist. Your Steeldives will seem absolutely pedestrian. You'll give 'em to a homeless guy. Hear me now. Believe me later.
Steeldives, Addiesdive , are superb watches . I have 4 of them . The capt Willard is a great watch , and the Lume is top notch . The mrs said it kept waking her up at night , it was bright? I hope it was the watch not Mr Willard lol . But with a nh35 at its heart you cant go wrong .
I think that if the Sea-Gull company wanted to, they could spend more time on QC and decorate the movements to a higher standard and perhaps develop some good quality solidly built timepieces and maybe charge a higher price and compete on some level with the Swiss and Japanese movements on the market?
“Swiss made” means 60% of the manufacturing costs accrued in Switzerland, given the high Swiss labour rates there are many many Swiss watches that are more than 90% Chinese. The truth about Chinese watches is many of them say Swiss Made
Firstly, Seagull is a great brand. Secondly I'm a huge Seiko Fanboy. I have the original SKX, the original Seiko Tuna, the Original 2nd Gen Monster. I also have the "homage" Steeldive Tuna with a yellow dial, loved the colour and Seiko never made yellow. It has a sapphire crystal, great lume, the same NH35 movement and I have dived with it. I have the Heimdallr red dial Monster 2nd generation, with the NH36A, sapphire, not hardlex, fully solid bracelet including milled clasp. I bought it also because Seiko never made a red dial Monster. Honestly, and pains me to say it, both are same build quality of my originals, with more premium crystal and bracelet. Seiko are selling their movements to these companies so obviously have no problem with them homaging their older models so why should I?. Excellent video Jordy, as always.
There's a difference between being made in China and being designed by a well-established company who writes production SOPs and sets QC standards for a plant that happens to be located in China.
I’m lucky enough to have a watch collection that includes Rolex, Omega, Oris, Montblanc, Longines, Tissot, Seiko etc etc. I’ve just received the Baltany 1921 Homage (central seconds hand version which imho looks much better than the small seconds) and have a San Martin as well. The quality of finish on them both is excellent, regardless of price point, which seems to be the yardstick most commonly used. They are also starting to release their own designs of late. It’s only a matter of time before these two brands become mainstream. The established old guard need to be looking over their shoulder……
My $100 Chinese made Rolex looks Swiss made to most people as long as they don't hold it in their hands. Also I had great customer service with quick replys from the seller on DHGate. Saved $10k-$15k easy.
I currently own 8 mid tier luxury Swiss watches, a Seiko Alpinist and 4 Chinese (San Martin) watches. I can honestly say that on a straight up comparison based on quality, the San Martin’s don’t take a back seat to the others. If you’re looking at it from a value for money basis, there’s no comparison. Far more bang for the buck with San Martin. Although a couple of my watches have increased in value, I don’t buy them as an investment. I buy them because I love the look of them and I enjoy wearing. Do your research and buy what you like. It’s always a great feeling to look down at your wrist and saying to yourself, I love the look of that watch.
One thing worth talking about is that chinese factories sell directly to the customer. They already are really cheap and selling directly to us without middle men create this price anomaly where what you get is far beyond what you are"taught" to get from the big brands all these years quality wise. To explain, you buy a 70$ pagani and you are getting a watch made like a 180$ seiko. You get a 150$ Baltany and you get a watch made like a 350$ orient etc. This "anomaly" completely changes your perception on what to expect from a watch. I loved the design of a hamilton jazzmaster that goes for 1000$ so i went to a dealer to see it on hand. Well, having experienced some chinese products it felt underwhelming. I mean i thought 600$ sure, 700$ maybe, but this quality is not for 1000$. I still love the design and maybe i'll get it but i couldn't pull the trigger.
Good points there T3. The point about trying a number of watch styles in an inexpensive fashion and not going straightaway to expensive ones is particularly relevant to many people. I have an Starking with a hi-beat movement that's an excellent watch. Guanquin and Cadisen are other manufacturers that produce quality products. As you say looking at things on a watch-by-watch basis is the way to go.
I was nervous about buying a Chinese watch for two reasons mainly. Number 1 is the generally perceived notion that all they produce is cheap junk. Number 2 was the fact that they are on the other side of the world. If something goes wrong what do you do? I was afraid I'd be S.O.L. if my purchase went sideways on me. Anyway, I took a chance on a watch that I really wanted from a brand that has generally positive reviews. It looked great and I was generally pleased that I made the purchase, in spite of having to wait a few weeks to receive it from China. It was an automatic movement that ran for less than a week. The seller was good about giving me a refund so I really wasn't our anything other than the disappointment of not having the watch.
Only tangentially-related, but it should be noted that India (despite having a home-grown watch company in HMT with its own in-house movement) is quickly earning a reputation for frankenwatches/counterfeits that has marred China's reputation.
Keep in mind Swiss brands have parts production taking place in China. Chinese watch production is improving all the time. Some microbrands use the Chinese watch industry and quality can be excellent
@@kenweller2032 I agree, Mark does an excellent job at Islander. I do believe he mostly uses Seiko movements. I think Seiko has movement production in China, not sure. Baltic is a French microbrand that uses a Chinese-made micro-rotor movement and it's been very well received.
@philipsdefreville6138 Yes, I've only seen him use NH series movements. I'd like to see PT5000 or similar movements. I have a Proxima 1697 with a PT5000, and it's been great for the six months I've had it.
Because of Jory, I discovered Seagull. I kept my eye on them and one day... bronze. OMG. A limited run of 300 bronze case 40mm 1963 with gooseneck movement. It was more expensive than the regular Seagulls but I had to have it. I have about 30 watches ranging from $30 to $3500, and there are only 2 that never leave my 'rotation' 5 watch box. This bronze seagull and my SARB065. What is mind blowing is the dial, the polish on the gold markers/numbers, and let's not forget the in-house chronograph made with Swiss tooling and it's more accurate than my $3500 'proper' Swiss watch... I feel that for $500 I got a $5000 piece. Oh, and love you too Jory. You make the world a better place. And that's just the beard
While I'm not big on Chinesium, I do have a couple of their watches in my collection. Most things I've ever ordered from AliExpress ended up being, well, garbage (metaphorical and eventually literal), including the stuff reputable UA-camrs were fluffing (I presume they get a better sample for review than the end customer). However, I recently got me a San Martin SN0129 (so called White Desert variant) and I can vouch it's an exquisite watch. You can't get a Seiko of this quality, level of finishing and specs and with the same movement in under $1k5, and you can't get a Seiko with bracelet of this quality for any money. I paid $265 for it, tax & customs included.
You can get a Seiko with the 4r34 and sapphire crystal for around 700 usd here in the UK and that’s with the extra tax. I’m afraid I’d rather pay the bit extra for the guarantee and the ease of return if I’m unhappy with anything on the Seiko. With San Martin they aren’t interested once they’ve sold you the watch and if my few purchases are anything to go by their qc wrt the movement is lacking.
There generally aren't any crappy watches coming out of Japan or Switzerland. I think its a trust issue, people dont trust watches unless they come from premier brands. I do hope to get a Seagull soon, but even Seagulls are getting copied these days.
There are plenty of crappy watches coming out of Switzerland... Hublot aside, I'd argue that Swiss 'tenable' watches are more times than not-crap. Pretty much every low-end Festina, Fossil, Victorinox, Invicta... whether 'Swiss Made' or not, are generally garbage.
That is just alot of bullcrap! You do know that most of the parts in Swiss watches are prodused in China right! Just look at when the pandemic hit it was a shortage of ETA movements! Wonder why that was! And that is just one example!
I started selling my Seikos after trying some of the Chinese microbrands. Seiko SSK uses noticeably poorer materials and finishing than my Pagani Design GMT, and with the same movement for 1/5 the price ($50 vs $250 on sale, $100 vs $475 MSRP). Seiko still uses Hardlex on their $500 watches. Make it make sense!
I bought a Chinese watch a couple summers ago in the 50-75 dollar price bracket and wasn’t super impressed. I just bought a Baltany and I’m excited for it to arrive so I can see how it is. This will always be my favorite watch channel
Very informative video - thank you. IMHO one of the things that Chinese watch manufacturers need to learn is to minimize their branding as they enter the market. At 4:00 you mentioned Starking watches. It would be super easy for them to make a dial without the letters and just the logo. Far more elegant and subtle. They also should get some advice on brand names from native English speakers - on both sides of the Atlantic, as well as the Antipodes. Because we all have different slang and it's easy to create a brand that sounds stupid to our ears. Like Starking...too close to "stark naked" or "stark raving mad".
Nice video shining a little light on some impressive, bang for buck, watch origins. I have a fair amount of chinese produced watches and, so long as you dont expect rolex or omega quality for your $50-$400, you'll be quite pleased with it. Happy thanksgiving Time Teller and everyone else. I love this channel. Its a great balance
Great video. Just to add some fun facts. Wrist watches are typically consist of the movement, the case, the dial, the hands and lume etc. Basically, anyone who knows where to get the parts, can come up with their own. The mass produce cheapo watches are quickly done with cheaper parts/components and hence, do not have good quality control, and is meant for "use & throw away". There are other company who invested in Swiss watch making tools, better parts and produce better quality watches. For instance, I have a San Martin Bronze Diver (300m), ETA movement, hands with C3 lume, sapphire glass, limited to 200 pieces, that can beat other branded watches at a fraction of the price...still working fine and looking great, after many years now. Due to the vast watch parts produced and available online from China at a much affordable price, I had purchased some better quality watches, tools and parts, either to replace the hands, dials, movements etc. even, make a watch for my own liking. (just for some DIY fun and past time). I will not dare to play around with my more expensive IWC, Oris, Ball etc. Hence, it depends on what you really want and keeping an open mind, gives you more options to find what is available out there. (At the same time, beware of fake advertisement too). Thanks and Cheers.
Jory, you are one of the kind, in this world we need more people like you. Keep doing what you are doing, because you are doing it f... well. Best wishes from an Italian man who lives in London. 😘😘😘
It’s not a matter of being a snob or ignorant, it’s a political thing! iIt’s a matter of not spending money on Chinese products whenever I can. Why buy a Chinese watch if I can buy an Orient that costs the same or maybe a little more. I’d rather put money in Japan’s pocket or Europe’s pocket.
Great video Jory. I think most people do think bc a watch is Chinese they think it's crap or fake, but they don't realize that most things they use and wear are from there. There are some Chinese brands that make some awesome watches and best value to money ratio. AtelierWen is a brand that can compete with some Swiss brands.
For me, its really about the specs. I was a Seiko 5 devotee for quite a while, until I discovered brands like Bliger selling watches with better Seiko movements (NH35 v the Seiko 5's 7s26) and sapphire (not Hardlex) for half the price. There's just no way to get 316L, sapphire, Seiko movements, solid bracelets, solid end links, milled clasps, and a positive reputation from reviewers for under 200USD outside of Chinese brands. There are automatic GMTs with NH34 movements selling for around 100 right now, but only in Chinese brands. Of course there are some crap brands and iffy QC in some cases, but that's why (as the video says) you want to research the brand, model, and seller.
If Aliexpress didn't exist, only millionaires could be watch collectors (especially of mechanical watches), and the watch enthusiast community would be much smaller. So Aliexpress (granted it only represents a portion of the Chinese watch world) rocks! Japanese movements need a shoutout too!
@@certainly2509 Tissot, Hamilton are Swiss, but Bulova is American/Japanese as it's owned by Citizen but I digress.. While you consider these brands as entry level, they are still on the unaffordable side for the majority of people in this world especially for building collections really. A mechanical Tissot, or Hamilton would cost at least 5 times more than a typical good quality aliexpress watch.
My Sugess, Lobinni and Baltany watches are not out of place among my 10x more expensive Lacos and Hamiltons. They scratch an itch for a particular style, do not break the bank, and make me want the Swiss watches even more.
I have Steeldive and a Cronos 3000m homage to the Rolex DeepSea. I paid extra to have a Swiss movement in it. Honestly, these watches are made to last. I don’t hate them in the slightest. I think they are very well made watches and I have never had any problems with them. I begrudge paying 10k for one when I can get an identical one a fraction of the price and it’s an accurate time keeper.
Mr Time Teller, you should understand that, when you say you had been going through ups and downs, that is a normal course of things in life. Although you say some of us enrich your experience, credit should go to you and your crew. Your channel has enriched our hobby, through our ups and downs. I am just very grateful for your hard work, and wish that things in life go well for you all in all.
Proud to support Chinese Watches? Are you in China? I’m the opposite. I’m proud to wear a watch that works for me. If it’s from China or Switzerland it matters little. I’m not shopping or supporting China if I don’t have to. A 12 yr old kid working 16 hrs a day probably built your “China proud” watch. The Chinese record on human rights alone tries to get me away from them.
@@thereissomecoolstuff Atelier Wen is an incredible brand, you should probably read about it before you deem that as child labour, cause it is far from it. They do represent an incredible, old culture of working with steel. They do not represent the current regime or other homage watch brands. Just because Putin goes to war against Ukraine, must I throw out the Vostok diver I got from my dad? Of course not. The world is more complicated than that.
@@Csibu89 can you prove the watch isn’t made by 12 year olds? That’s my point. You don’t actually know who is making them. If it’s a Japanese watch you know it’s crafted by a 75 year old apprentice because there are no young people there. I am familiar with the brand.
My wife has sold goods made in China for 20 + years to all of the large box stores. Factories that make goods like electronics, watches, etc., are absolutely and regularly vetted for their labor pool and working conditions from the companies that import those items. You don't know what you are talking about.@@thereissomecoolstuff
I have only one issue with Chinas watches and it's political and the continual damage it's done to American watchmaking. I'll combine it with a criticism of American laziness and selling out American manufacturing that has decimated watchmaking because our own greed. That being said I seriously like Sugess watches and for decent beaters, Pagani Design and San Martin and one or two other Chinese watch brands that I can't think of right now. We have to admit that Chinas been ass blasting Murica in all aspects of manufacturing to the point that one can argue that China owns a large part of America. I take No Joy in admitting this Truth but that being said I have to call a spade a spade and admit that some of these Chinese watch brands are pretty dammed good! Btw, I 'll stress that I despise the Chinese Government, Not the People. This is a great subject, Kudos to you Jory. Cheers!
I upgrade the seagull movements and to be honest they are pretty reliable. They can be balanced and regulated to be more or less spot-on. So I don't think anybody, really, should write them off. I mean, if you want to buy top end movements, and use them in your watches, all power to you. But from a value perspective they are pretty good.
Starking is an odd one to single out, they are on the lower end when it comes to mechanical watches (perhaps a tad above Forsining and Ochstin), in both quality and price. Once you go north of $50 there are quite a few decent mechanical watches to be had, and above $100 you can get microbrand quality stuff.
Microbrands are usually designed elsewhere but built in China. Just ask the microbrands where their watches are manufactured. Some will admit that it is all done in China and other will beat around the bush and never answer the question. That's just the way it is. Most microbrands concentrate on the designs and the marketing and leave the manufacturing to China.
I own three chinese watches - a Seagull 1963 (built by who knows who, certainly not an official Seagull - like most of them), a Merkur Salmon dial and a Ciga Design Z Series. Love them all. They are original designs, they all have true chinese movements with real heritage and they all are pretty unique and offer something that canoot be found anywhere else at these price points (they were all under 200bucks brand new). SO they certainly can be great and pretty cool. The homages or fakes with a different name on the dial...no, those I don't like.
Most of the so-called Swiss brands are in fact made in China; parts, components, cases, bracelets and even entire movements. The Swiss watch industry is built on a lot of lies, deception and perceived quality and exclusivity. Chinese factories are capable of producing high-quality watches. It exports millions of watches annually, and surprise surprise, Switzerland is the biggest importer. I wonder why?? Chinese factories have many years of experience and have trained a large labour force and have many machines and equipment.
Interesting: I have just [ 06 Dec. 2023] taken delivery of a new Baltany Military Automatic Field watch with a nice black dial. I gave it quite a bit of thought before buying it [ from their UK agency], but I have no problems with buying PRC products. I also have a VERY nice pocket watch [black dial] automatic, made in PRC. It was not expensive [about £25 stg. including postage from China] and functions more than merely acceptably.
People would be pissed if they really knew the number of watches marked "Swiss Made" are made mostly in China from Chinese parts. I think T3 may have made a video on this.
In my view, the political and workplace realities of China cannot be ignored when evaluating products coming out of that country, especially at the lower end. "Lower labor cost" doesn't adequately summarize how these price points are achieved. I'm hoping we'll see more independents like Atelier Wen surfacing within China's borders and would gladly support them. Edit: I'm not suggesting the "lower labor cost" quote is from T3.
This! This is the biggest reason I have been reluctant to get a Baltany or San Martin. I like some of the designs, especially the homages to vintage pieces that aren't made anymore. But I have issues with their labor practices. Can anyone speak on this and either confirm or give me a reason to finally pull the trigger on one?
@@mattb6986I believe the answer to that question lies with your conscience. These are discretionary items allowing you to spread your money however you like. It’s nearly impossible these days to live without some Chinese made goods in your life but, when I have a choice I’m glad I have that choice 😊
"Steeldive" comes to mind when I think about Chinese watches. Even though they make the watches in Guangdong, the company is registered in Singapore. The Chinese watchmakers are aware of their reputation however there IS a market that they cater to.
I bought my Sea-Gulls some 10 years ago, they still work. Tried Seiko Alpinist after them and sold it away the next day... At current state of affairs, would not buy again a Sea-Gull. I have cut down most of the purchases of products made in china. I think mostly impossible to quit alltogether but still, I have stopped most of it.
Do you folks have an opinion about Demirsen watches out of China? I own a few and they are loaded with features and are significantly less expensive than a comparable Swiss or German watch at the price point. I especially like the Demirsen Diver. Please provide feedback.
Very good commentary and you did your homework as usual. I remember you the Cigna that won a best design award a year ago So they do serious horology And yes tons of fakes too Still the main issue is value retention. Worth mentioning, have lived and worked in China many years, if you see a foreigner wearing a luxury brand watch it’s probably a fake but if a Chinese wears one it’s definitely a real one Good job 3T
What I noted is attention to detail in some and some not and lack of quality control in others. I have a dollar limit of 250 for them as I know any customer service if problems is little or non existent. I like Long Island watches. You never hear him say they're made in vhina but stands behind them in America and cracks the whip on quality control and has made many of his newer watches to a higher sophistication level. I'd buy his over San Martin's.
As far as Chinese watches go, I have a Sugess (ST1901), a Steeldive (NH35), and a Seestern (NH 34). My experience with Chinese movements is limited to the ST1901 which is very nice indeed.
China has never been in the "prestige" goods business (for anything, not just watches). That doesn't necessarily mean their watches are crap, but they won't be thought of as being in the same tier as the big Swiss watchmakers any time soon. Japan had the same reputation for selling cheap, mass-produced crap and it took a long time for them to shake it.
China have been producing some of the best wood based musical instruments for a long time..want a great cello? China make them. They also make some of the worst instruments available. Like most of them hanging on the wall in any music store. If you want top quality anything, China can provide it if you are willing to pay for it and know which company to approach. Their industries are capable of producing every grade possible. You choose how much you want to pay.
and Japan still hasn't completely shaken it off. That's why you have tons of former Seiko fans that complain about the prices being too high. Even they don't think Seiko is worth paying for.
Most Swiss watches are also made somewhere but assembled in Switzerland. Criteria are that 40% of Money spent in making a Watch needs to be spent in Switzerland to be able to write swiss made on it, so...just pay some Guy to polish a Watch more than it costs to produce it in China, and it can be considered Swiss made.
I bought a skmei automatic watch, and owns several seagull. What I see is, the Chinese could made great watches with good quality to downright terrible watches. BUT even their big brands are already stained by their own tendency to copy other brand's designs with minimal quantity of original designs. In seagull's own website, the 'original' designs are mostly consists of skeletonized cheap looking and gaudy design that are sold for hundreds of dollars. Tbh, big Chinese brands usually offers watches with rather 'lazy' designs.
I have a lot of Chinese watches, which I love. Most of them use the NH35 or the PT5000 and they are GOOD watches...!!! Sea-Gull, Tandorio and Beijing are some of my faves..!!!
I'm surprised you didn't mention FIYTA, pronounced FEE-YA-TA. They make watches for the Chinese space program. I own the Shen Zhou that is worn by Taikonauts, and the FIYTA Spacemaster, a super interesting space mechanical chronograph made for extra vehicular activities (Space walks). It has unusual subdials with different lume colors (Blue and Green) to mark 30minutes and 45 minutes, this indicates the time a taikonaut has to complete certain tasks, before he must head back into the space vehicle. It also has an unusual bezel that goes up to 8 hours, the useful life of a space suit. Are they as good as the Omega Speedmaster or Fortis Cosmonaut watches--no. But they are amazing conversation pieces, and highly unusual. They are super hard to find and purchase. When I got the Shen Zhou, I had to open a bank account in China to purchase it. The Spacemaster I got from a shop in Germany by sheer luck. All are numbered and when they are gone, they are gone. But they did release a new Spacemaster version this year.
I have a Sea-gull Bauhaus design that I bought since at that moment I couldn’t afford the Nomos Tangente. Till this day I haven’t bought the Tangente because it looks so similar and its so well build that Id rather just buy another Nomos model. Im not saying its a Tangente clone, but as a general example of Bauhaus design its perfect.
I watched that and read all these comments, because I'm interested in Chinese-branded watches. At this point, a lot of them are derivative, but there may be a coming micro-brand crisis that'll rival the quartz-crisis. So, I'm interested. I'm glad a few commenters already mentioned that a lot of Swiss watches are largely made in China. (Swiss requirements for in-country content are pretty lax.) And, sorry to say, but I bet everybody who commented that they don't buy Chinese products for political/moral reasons has a house full of them.
I personally love them and enjoy trolling the gatekeepers. Folks crack me up, they are just watches! Let's not get into the tech and smartphones that most of these fools are using to whine about Chinese homage watches. This is also an internet thing only. In the real world most folks pay no attention, and they definitely wouldn't have the balls to disparage it to your face if they did.
I have a Gute (Give you the Excellent) dress watch. It's pretty much a bargain basement Longines Master clone with a different date window. For $22 it's a sexy automatic watch.
Sugess and Boderry are two brands that have impressed me more than seiko, tissot, or alot of entry level brands have. Seiko is still my favourite but Sugess is easily the close second.
Jory,I collect watches that are swiss and others and puchased thirty chinese and I am going to see how good they are. Time will tell keep you posted.so far two crowns fell out brand new. UGH
The reasons I won't buy a Chinese or Russian watch is that it at least indirectly supports authoritarian regimes. I have no idea under what circumstances Seagull movements are made, but I'm dead sure that worker right standards are much lower there. I don't say that companies in the West are inherently good and that the system is not flawed but buying a Sinn is not the same as contributing to Russia's export figures and western currency access by buying a Vostok. Also, shipping something from China to me in Europe is just an unnecessary burden on the environment. I do find the Seagull 1963 cool though and I would have already bought it were it made in Finland for example.
@@nobodynever7884 This statement is just as meaningless as if I were to accuse you that you buy tomato and potato imported from China just to support the oil industry. Jeez, could it be that this isn't so black & white? :D
Traditional Chinese watch barnds, such as Sea-Gull and Fiyta, are actually quite good. Meanwhile some local microbrands, coming into being in the past few years, are more interesting. Timethis, Farasute, Ixdao, just to name a little.
I had a Sugess chronograph and one of the hands fell off the sub dial. I paid to have it put back on and it fell off again so I trashed it. Literally the only Chinese watch I've ever bought and it was also the only watch I've ever thrown away.
With the exception of Seagull Chinese watches do not have history or originality. If I go to AliExpress I don´t find any creativity. It is all just interchangeable within the different styles of watches. I can not connect emotionally with these soulless mass products.
After 2 years of searching Seiko, Orient, Hamilton, etc. for "MY" watch, the Steeldive SD1970 "Captain Willard" for $70 fills the bill. It's not a "FAKE" and specs outshine the original.
I have 2 china watches. One pocket one wrist. Both are silly over the top skeleton units. And both 25$. They are what they are and 2 years in both still work great
Of course it's worth buying a Chinese watch. Most brands in the entry level utilize Chinese parts anyway. It's no coincidence that when covid hit eta movements where in short supply. Or bracelets on "swiss watches". Seiko, casio, timex, citizen, etc. all utilize Chinese parts. Same with "swiss" entry level brands. If anyone has a problem with the labor aspect, i better not hear they wear 95% of clothing brands. And the homage aspect, they better not wear jeans that aren't Levi's. Idk, the list goes on. China should be considered in anyone's collection imo.
I have not had good luck with almost all mechanical products produced in China. It primarily has to do with basically no quality controls and least expensive raw materials available. Maybe watches is where they excel.
I bought the San Martin homage just do I could get a feel of the MM300. I then bought the Seiko LX spring drive. I could have ended up with a watch I did not love. Besides most independent and Micro brands get their watches made in China.
I have over a dozen Chinese watches ranging from $65 to 300 retail cost. Most have Seiko mvmts, including MecaQuartz chronos. Some have PT5000 Chinese high beat mvmts.
Every one of these will lose value over time.
But none of them need to ever see the inside of a jewelry store, let alone cost $1000 to service. None are insured or need to be kept in a safe. Every one of them can be brought back from all but the most brutal treatment by someone with minimal skills for under $100. Most of them run within 5 seconds/day of any 5 figure Rolex. All have sapphire crystals, at least 100m claimed WR and all the same materials as most other brands use.
So, until I decide that storing wealth on my wrist is wiser and more fun than putting it on my walls or in my garage, ...and until people evolve way better eyes to notice or care anyway, I'll take 90% of a Rolex for 1% of the costs and headaches any day.
I understand the principle of diminishing returns. But looking at a good $300 Chinese watch up against a $25,000 Swiss watch and it starts looking unjustifiably insane. Watches shouldn't be viewed as commodities.
Damn man, nicely put
🙌🏼
@@petem.3719 thanks for your personal and subjective opinion. While i disagree with your assessment and advice, i appreciate the thought behind your comments. God bless.
I recently sold a couple of my san Martins,, which definitely are exceptionally well finished for the price point, but honestly after a while I couldn't continue enjoying them, because everytime I looked at my wrist I saw nothing, no heritage, just some nice steal finishing and a relatively good ar coating. After selling them I added a bit of money and acquired a first watch in the 1 to 2k range and I can confirm it is completely different in a good way. Sure the prices are more than often not justified with a lot of well known brands, but generally when you handle a proper watch with a decent movement and history you will definitely feel the difference in quality.
I no longer bother with the likes of Seiko, Citizen, Tissot, or other affordable brands from Japan or Switzerland, brands like San Martin, Rmalti, Rdunae, Hruodland, Seagull, Seestern, from China are killing it with better quality at better prices.
Its a fact !
seiko is still good why the hate
Seiko watches look good for the money, but their specs are not great value ANYMORE.
Cronos and Steeldive are beautiful mate
one thing people do not mention is how the Seiko NH35/36 movement changed a lot for Chinese watches, you have a reliable Japanese movement that can go for donkeys years and is cheap. building affordable watches around that movement helped a lot of Chinese brands come up with budget bangers.
That's the main reason why I bought some Steeldives.
same really decent daily@@ZoomZoom-ng6sn
Seiko is over. A 25yrs old one ok, the new one, given away as a present, Seiko5, rubbish.
Although lacking the durability record of the Seikos, the Eta 2824 high beat clones now give them a cheap high beat option. San Martin, Ixdao, Proxima and Cronos all use a ($60) PT5000 movement in $125-300 watches that put Seiko to shame and rival Swiss models costing 10x as much.
Chinese watches have improved enormously in just the last 5 years. If they ever figured out that QC thing and eliminated the crapshoot factor, China could capture nearly the entire market for watches not named Rolex or Omega.
@sotecluxan4221 I have a Seiko5 with a LS26 mvmt.. I bought it for $52 on sale at Amazon in 2018. It's pushing $200 today. I got a Chinese homage of that watch with better specs, a NH36, a sapphire crystal and a metal band for under $85. Fit, finish and alignment was better than either of the two $300 Seiko chronographs I sent back for those issues.
I got into Steeldives because a lot of non-Chinese watch reviewers in UA-cam like the brand's products. So I thought it wouldn't be so bad buying some Steeldives. 2.5 years have passed and so far not a single problem with all four of my Steeldives. They don't cost much at all and if something goes wrong with them it's no big deal.
Yes, I think Steeldive and Addisdive are the same company, and they make good solid watches too.
I completely agree. I have a steeldive sd1970. That damn watch is rock solid and the lume is insane!!
@ajbones4207 Not the same company. Addiesdive is a split off company from Steeldive. I like their stuff better. Better finishing and they may even regulate some. I get +/- 1 or 2 s/d on a couple.
I have a couple Steeldives, inc the famed SD1970 "Capt. Willard", so I can relate.
But now it's time to step up to the premium Ali brands. Catch a sale and spend the extra 100 to put a 28800 beat Proxima or SM on your wrist. Your Steeldives will seem absolutely pedestrian. You'll give 'em to a homeless guy.
Hear me now. Believe me later.
Steeldives, Addiesdive , are superb watches . I have 4 of them . The capt Willard is a great watch , and the Lume is top notch . The mrs said it kept waking her up at night , it was bright?
I hope it was the watch not Mr Willard lol .
But with a nh35 at its heart you cant go wrong .
I think that if the Sea-Gull company wanted to, they could spend more time on QC and decorate the movements to a higher standard and perhaps develop some good quality solidly built timepieces and maybe charge a higher price and compete on some level with the Swiss and Japanese movements on the market?
“Swiss made” means 60% of the manufacturing costs accrued in Switzerland, given the high Swiss labour rates there are many many Swiss watches that are more than 90% Chinese. The truth about Chinese watches is many of them say Swiss Made
Firstly, Seagull is a great brand. Secondly I'm a huge Seiko Fanboy. I have the original SKX, the original Seiko Tuna, the Original 2nd Gen Monster. I also have the "homage" Steeldive Tuna with a yellow dial, loved the colour and Seiko never made yellow. It has a sapphire crystal, great lume, the same NH35 movement and I have dived with it. I have the Heimdallr red dial Monster 2nd generation, with the NH36A, sapphire, not hardlex, fully solid bracelet including milled clasp. I bought it also because Seiko never made a red dial Monster. Honestly, and pains me to say it, both are same build quality of my originals, with more premium crystal and bracelet. Seiko are selling their movements to these companies so obviously have no problem with them homaging their older models so why should I?. Excellent video Jordy, as always.
Odds are, you are reading this comment on a device made in China or which contains major components made in China. How do you feel about said device?
Not for long
This iPhone was definitely made in China.
I think that a high-quality electromechanical watch can be made in China and probably some are.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 This is Sooooooooo True !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Impossible to boycott everything Chinese. Most non-Chinese brand products have a little Chinese in them. It's just the way business works.
There's a difference between being made in China and being designed by a well-established company who writes production SOPs and sets QC standards for a plant that happens to be located in China.
I’m lucky enough to have a watch collection that includes Rolex, Omega, Oris, Montblanc, Longines, Tissot, Seiko etc etc. I’ve just received the Baltany 1921 Homage (central seconds hand version which imho looks much better than the small seconds) and have a San Martin as well. The quality of finish on them both is excellent, regardless of price point, which seems to be the yardstick most commonly used. They are also starting to release their own designs of late. It’s only a matter of time before these two brands become mainstream. The established old guard need to be looking over their shoulder……
How were you able to build such a collection? Pure wealth or luck? Sacrifice or skill?
Considering how Rolex treats the average guy like shit, I’ll give the Chinese a chance.
My $100 Chinese made Rolex looks Swiss made to most people as long as they don't hold it in their hands. Also I had great customer service with quick replys from the seller on DHGate. Saved $10k-$15k easy.
I currently own 8 mid tier luxury Swiss watches, a Seiko Alpinist and 4 Chinese (San Martin) watches. I can honestly say that on a straight up comparison based on quality, the San Martin’s don’t take a back seat to the others. If you’re looking at it from a value for money basis, there’s no comparison. Far more bang for the buck with San Martin.
Although a couple of my watches have increased in value, I don’t buy them as an investment. I buy them because I love the look of them and I enjoy wearing.
Do your research and buy what you like. It’s always a great feeling to look down at your wrist and saying to yourself, I love the look of that watch.
One thing worth talking about is that chinese factories sell directly to the customer. They already are really cheap and selling directly to us without middle men create this price anomaly where what you get is far beyond what you are"taught" to get from the big brands all these years quality wise. To explain, you buy a 70$ pagani and you are getting a watch made like a 180$ seiko. You get a 150$ Baltany and you get a watch made like a 350$ orient etc. This "anomaly" completely changes your perception on what to expect from a watch. I loved the design of a hamilton jazzmaster that goes for 1000$ so i went to a dealer to see it on hand. Well, having experienced some chinese products it felt underwhelming. I mean i thought 600$ sure, 700$ maybe, but this quality is not for 1000$. I still love the design and maybe i'll get it but i couldn't pull the trigger.
Good points there T3. The point about trying a number of watch styles in an inexpensive fashion and not going straightaway to expensive ones is particularly relevant to many people. I have an Starking with a hi-beat movement that's an excellent watch. Guanquin and Cadisen are other manufacturers that produce quality products. As you say looking at things on a watch-by-watch basis is the way to go.
I was nervous about buying a Chinese watch for two reasons mainly. Number 1 is the generally perceived notion that all they produce is cheap junk. Number 2 was the fact that they are on the other side of the world. If something goes wrong what do you do? I was afraid I'd be S.O.L. if my purchase went sideways on me. Anyway, I took a chance on a watch that I really wanted from a brand that has generally positive reviews. It looked great and I was generally pleased that I made the purchase, in spite of having to wait a few weeks to receive it from China. It was an automatic movement that ran for less than a week. The seller was good about giving me a refund so I really wasn't our anything other than the disappointment of not having the watch.
Only tangentially-related, but it should be noted that India (despite having a home-grown watch company in HMT with its own in-house movement) is quickly earning a reputation for frankenwatches/counterfeits that has marred China's reputation.
Not mentioning San Martin here is a sin
Keep in mind Swiss brands have parts production taking place in China. Chinese watch production is improving all the time. Some microbrands use the Chinese watch industry and quality can be excellent
"Islander" is a good example of a Chinese made micro-brand with American design and QC. I don't own any, but many are attractive and not too pricey.
@@kenweller2032 I agree, Mark does an excellent job at Islander. I do believe he mostly uses Seiko movements. I think Seiko has movement production in China, not sure. Baltic is a French microbrand that uses a Chinese-made micro-rotor movement and it's been very well received.
@philipsdefreville6138 Yes, I've only seen him use NH series movements. I'd like to see PT5000 or similar movements. I have a Proxima 1697 with a PT5000, and it's been great for the six months I've had it.
Because of Jory, I discovered Seagull. I kept my eye on them and one day... bronze. OMG. A limited run of 300 bronze case 40mm 1963 with gooseneck movement. It was more expensive than the regular Seagulls but I had to have it. I have about 30 watches ranging from $30 to $3500, and there are only 2 that never leave my 'rotation' 5 watch box. This bronze seagull and my SARB065. What is mind blowing is the dial, the polish on the gold markers/numbers, and let's not forget the in-house chronograph made with Swiss tooling and it's more accurate than my $3500 'proper' Swiss watch... I feel that for $500 I got a $5000 piece. Oh, and love you too Jory. You make the world a better place. And that's just the beard
While I'm not big on Chinesium, I do have a couple of their watches in my collection. Most things I've ever ordered from AliExpress ended up being, well, garbage (metaphorical and eventually literal), including the stuff reputable UA-camrs were fluffing (I presume they get a better sample for review than the end customer). However, I recently got me a San Martin SN0129 (so called White Desert variant) and I can vouch it's an exquisite watch. You can't get a Seiko of this quality, level of finishing and specs and with the same movement in under $1k5, and you can't get a Seiko with bracelet of this quality for any money. I paid $265 for it, tax & customs included.
Waiting for mine in the brushed steel!
You can get a Seiko with the 4r34 and sapphire crystal for around 700 usd here in the UK and that’s with the extra tax.
I’m afraid I’d rather pay the bit extra for the guarantee and the ease of return if I’m unhappy with anything on the Seiko. With San Martin they aren’t interested once they’ve sold you the watch and if my few purchases are anything to go by their qc wrt the movement is lacking.
You'd be surprised how many parts in your "Swiss" watch were sourced in China........
There generally aren't any crappy watches coming out of Japan or Switzerland. I think its a trust issue, people dont trust watches unless they come from premier brands.
I do hope to get a Seagull soon, but even Seagulls are getting copied these days.
Sea-gulls are amazing!
Never heard of Hublot, have ya? (I’m not making a joke)
@@thetimeteller , amen to that Timeteller.
Love your channel, keep up the great content
There are plenty of crappy watches coming out of Switzerland... Hublot aside, I'd argue that Swiss 'tenable' watches are more times than not-crap. Pretty much every low-end Festina, Fossil, Victorinox, Invicta... whether 'Swiss Made' or not, are generally garbage.
That is just alot of bullcrap!
You do know that most of the parts in Swiss watches are prodused in China right!
Just look at when the pandemic hit it was a shortage of ETA movements!
Wonder why that was!
And that is just one example!
I started selling my Seikos after trying some of the Chinese microbrands. Seiko SSK uses noticeably poorer materials and finishing than my Pagani Design GMT, and with the same movement for 1/5 the price ($50 vs $250 on sale, $100 vs $475 MSRP). Seiko still uses Hardlex on their $500 watches. Make it make sense!
You could have gone with a Citizen
I bought a Chinese watch a couple summers ago in the 50-75 dollar price bracket and wasn’t super impressed. I just bought a Baltany and I’m excited for it to arrive so I can see how it is.
This will always be my favorite watch channel
I have 2 Baltanys, you won't be disappointed imo
Very informative video - thank you. IMHO one of the things that Chinese watch manufacturers need to learn is to minimize their branding as they enter the market. At 4:00 you mentioned Starking watches. It would be super easy for them to make a dial without the letters and just the logo. Far more elegant and subtle. They also should get some advice on brand names from native English speakers - on both sides of the Atlantic, as well as the Antipodes. Because we all have different slang and it's easy to create a brand that sounds stupid to our ears. Like Starking...too close to "stark naked" or "stark raving mad".
Nice video shining a little light on some impressive, bang for buck, watch origins. I have a fair amount of chinese produced watches and, so long as you dont expect rolex or omega quality for your $50-$400, you'll be quite pleased with it. Happy thanksgiving Time Teller and everyone else. I love this channel. Its a great balance
Happy Thanksgiving Jory. We all really appreciate you. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone here also!
Great video. Just to add some fun facts. Wrist watches are typically consist of the movement, the case, the dial, the hands and lume etc. Basically, anyone who knows where to get the parts, can come up with their own. The mass produce cheapo watches are quickly done with cheaper parts/components and hence, do not have good quality control, and is meant for "use & throw away". There are other company who invested in Swiss watch making tools, better parts and produce better quality watches. For instance, I have a San Martin Bronze Diver (300m), ETA movement, hands with C3 lume, sapphire glass, limited to 200 pieces, that can beat other branded watches at a fraction of the price...still working fine and looking great, after many years now. Due to the vast watch parts produced and available online from China at a much affordable price, I had purchased some better quality watches, tools and parts, either to replace the hands, dials, movements etc. even, make a watch for my own liking. (just for some DIY fun and past time). I will not dare to play around with my more expensive IWC, Oris, Ball etc. Hence, it depends on what you really want and keeping an open mind, gives you more options to find what is available out there. (At the same time, beware of fake advertisement too). Thanks and Cheers.
Jory, you are one of the kind, in this world we need more people like you. Keep doing what you are doing, because you are doing it f... well. Best wishes from an Italian man who lives in London. 😘😘😘
I have numerous Swiss watches from Rolex to Omega, and the watches I wear the most are Steeldive and Seagull watches!😂
Are Jaragar watches worth buying ?
It’s not a matter of being a snob or ignorant, it’s a political thing! iIt’s a matter of not spending money on Chinese products whenever I can. Why buy a Chinese watch if I can buy an Orient that costs the same or maybe a little more. I’d rather put money in Japan’s pocket or Europe’s pocket.
Love my 1963. Very cool piece. Great value for money.
Great video Jory. I think most people do think bc a watch is Chinese they think it's crap or fake, but they don't realize that most things they use and wear are from there. There are some Chinese brands that make some awesome watches and best value to money ratio. AtelierWen is a brand that can compete with some Swiss brands.
For me, its really about the specs. I was a Seiko 5 devotee for quite a while, until I discovered brands like Bliger selling watches with better Seiko movements (NH35 v the Seiko 5's 7s26) and sapphire (not Hardlex) for half the price. There's just no way to get 316L, sapphire, Seiko movements, solid bracelets, solid end links, milled clasps, and a positive reputation from reviewers for under 200USD outside of Chinese brands. There are automatic GMTs with NH34 movements selling for around 100 right now, but only in Chinese brands. Of course there are some crap brands and iffy QC in some cases, but that's why (as the video says) you want to research the brand, model, and seller.
If Aliexpress didn't exist, only millionaires could be watch collectors (especially of mechanical watches), and the watch enthusiast community would be much smaller. So Aliexpress (granted it only represents a portion of the Chinese watch world) rocks! Japanese movements need a shoutout too!
What? You don't have to be a millionaire to afford many entry level swiss watches such as Tissot, Hamilton, Bulova etc..
@@certainly2509 Tissot, Hamilton are Swiss, but Bulova is American/Japanese as it's owned by Citizen but I digress.. While you consider these brands as entry level, they are still on the unaffordable side for the majority of people in this world especially for building collections really. A mechanical Tissot, or Hamilton would cost at least 5 times more than a typical good quality aliexpress watch.
Also thank god for Casio! "God-tier" brand!
My Sugess, Lobinni and Baltany watches are not out of place among my 10x more expensive Lacos and Hamiltons. They scratch an itch for a particular style, do not break the bank, and make me want the Swiss watches even more.
I have Steeldive and a Cronos 3000m homage to the Rolex DeepSea. I paid extra to have a Swiss movement in it. Honestly, these watches are made to last. I don’t hate them in the slightest. I think they are very well made watches and I have never had any problems with them. I begrudge paying 10k for one when I can get an identical one a fraction of the price and it’s an accurate time keeper.
Mr Time Teller, you should understand that, when you say you had been going through ups and downs, that is a normal course of things in life. Although you say some of us enrich your experience, credit should go to you and your crew.
Your channel has enriched our hobby, through our ups and downs. I am just very grateful for your hard work, and wish that things in life go well for you all in all.
I have an Atelier Wen Perception coming in January. Proud to support original Chinese brands even if I’m late to the integrated bracelet party
Proud to support Chinese Watches? Are you in China? I’m the opposite. I’m proud to wear a watch that works for me. If it’s from China or Switzerland it matters little. I’m not shopping or supporting China if I don’t have to. A 12 yr old kid working 16 hrs a day probably built your “China proud” watch. The Chinese record on human rights alone tries to get me away from them.
@@thereissomecoolstuff Atelier Wen is an incredible brand, you should probably read about it before you deem that as child labour, cause it is far from it. They do represent an incredible, old culture of working with steel. They do not represent the current regime or other homage watch brands. Just because Putin goes to war against Ukraine, must I throw out the Vostok diver I got from my dad? Of course not. The world is more complicated than that.
@@Csibu89 can you prove the watch isn’t made by 12 year olds? That’s my point. You don’t actually know who is making them. If it’s a Japanese watch you know it’s crafted by a 75 year old apprentice because there are no young people there. I am familiar with the brand.
My wife has sold goods made in China for 20 + years to all of the large box stores. Factories that make goods like electronics, watches, etc., are absolutely and regularly vetted for their labor pool and working conditions from the companies that import those items. You don't know what you are talking about.@@thereissomecoolstuff
@@thereissomecoolstuff So i guess you do not by any watches then since alot of parts in all watches in all of the world are made in China!
Thoughts on the bronze 1963? I love bronze watches wondering if anyone's had the pleasure of handling the bronze 1963
There was a post, above, by TDKChad999 saying he has one.... :)
I have only one issue with Chinas watches and it's political and the continual damage it's done to American watchmaking. I'll combine it with a criticism of American laziness and selling out American manufacturing that has decimated watchmaking because our own greed. That being said I seriously like Sugess watches and for decent beaters, Pagani Design and San Martin and one or two other Chinese watch brands that I can't think of right now. We have to admit that Chinas been ass blasting Murica in all aspects of manufacturing to the point that one can argue that China owns a large part of America. I take No Joy in admitting this Truth but that being said I have to call a spade a spade and admit that some of these Chinese watch brands are pretty dammed good! Btw, I 'll stress that I despise the Chinese Government, Not the People. This is a great subject, Kudos to you Jory. Cheers!
I upgrade the seagull movements and to be honest they are pretty reliable. They can be balanced and regulated to be more or less spot-on. So I don't think anybody, really, should write them off. I mean, if you want to buy top end movements, and use them in your watches, all power to you. But from a value perspective they are pretty good.
Starking is an odd one to single out, they are on the lower end when it comes to mechanical watches (perhaps a tad above Forsining and Ochstin), in both quality and price. Once you go north of $50 there are quite a few decent mechanical watches to be had, and above $100 you can get microbrand quality stuff.
Microbrands are usually designed elsewhere but built in China. Just ask the microbrands where their watches are manufactured. Some will admit that it is all done in China and other will beat around the bush and never answer the question.
That's just the way it is. Most microbrands concentrate on the designs and the marketing and leave the manufacturing to China.
Such as?
I started buying some Chinese watches and some of the brands are good quality and quite reliable. Haven’t had any issues with the ones I’ve bought.
I love my seagull 1963, I just can't have it serviced if it ever breaks.
You can buy a replacement movement for about $100 .
Will it break as well ? 🤔
I bought a Sanda 6014 in Thailand and it's been a very good watch, even waterproof in the shower, impressed for $6
I own three chinese watches - a Seagull 1963 (built by who knows who, certainly not an official Seagull - like most of them), a Merkur Salmon dial and a Ciga Design Z Series. Love them all. They are original designs, they all have true chinese movements with real heritage and they all are pretty unique and offer something that canoot be found anywhere else at these price points (they were all under 200bucks brand new). SO they certainly can be great and pretty cool. The homages or fakes with a different name on the dial...no, those I don't like.
Most of the so-called Swiss brands are in fact made in China; parts, components, cases, bracelets and even entire movements. The Swiss watch industry is built on a lot of lies, deception and perceived quality and exclusivity. Chinese factories are capable of producing high-quality watches. It exports millions of watches annually, and surprise surprise, Switzerland is the biggest importer. I wonder why?? Chinese factories have many years of experience and have trained a large labour force and have many machines and equipment.
Triple T, I like Chinese watches because their cheap prices let me buy a $100 homage versus spending over $5000 for an over-priced original.
Interesting: I have just [ 06 Dec. 2023] taken delivery of a new Baltany Military Automatic Field watch with a nice black dial. I gave it quite a bit of thought before buying it [ from their UK agency], but I have no problems with buying PRC products. I also have a VERY nice pocket watch [black dial] automatic, made in PRC. It was not expensive [about £25 stg. including postage from China] and functions more than merely acceptably.
I'm currently wearing my Parnis automatic (Flieger) with Power Reserve Indicator and I think it's great!
People would be pissed if they really knew the number of watches marked "Swiss Made" are made mostly in China from Chinese parts. I think T3 may have made a video on this.
In my view, the political and workplace realities of China cannot be ignored when evaluating products coming out of that country, especially at the lower end. "Lower labor cost" doesn't adequately summarize how these price points are achieved. I'm hoping we'll see more independents like Atelier Wen surfacing within China's borders and would gladly support them.
Edit: I'm not suggesting the "lower labor cost" quote is from T3.
This! This is the biggest reason I have been reluctant to get a Baltany or San Martin. I like some of the designs, especially the homages to vintage pieces that aren't made anymore. But I have issues with their labor practices. Can anyone speak on this and either confirm or give me a reason to finally pull the trigger on one?
@@mattb6986I believe the answer to that question lies with your conscience. These are discretionary items allowing you to spread your money however you like. It’s nearly impossible these days to live without some Chinese made goods in your life but, when I have a choice I’m glad I have that choice 😊
Starking AM0151SL22 (black dail) was my first cheapest sapphire crystal glass wrist watch..yes, Seagull 1963 is a must for every watch collector..
Got a 1963, San Martin SN17 and a VSF Submariner rep. All have been excellent.
"Steeldive" comes to mind when I think about Chinese watches. Even though they make the watches in Guangdong, the company is registered in Singapore. The Chinese watchmakers are aware of their reputation however there IS a market that they cater to.
I bought my Sea-Gulls some 10 years ago, they still work. Tried Seiko Alpinist after them and sold it away the next day... At current state of affairs, would not buy again a Sea-Gull. I have cut down most of the purchases of products made in china. I think mostly impossible to quit alltogether but still, I have stopped most of it.
I’m a fan and you are my leader!
Please enjoy the fact that I’m one of your many enthusiastic viewers.
I bought a Sugess Automatic Chronograph on Feb. It stopped working on November.
Do you folks have an opinion about Demirsen watches out of China? I own a few and they are loaded with features and are significantly less expensive than a comparable Swiss or German watch at the price point. I especially like the Demirsen Diver.
Please provide feedback.
Cheap things aren't nice, nice things aren't cheap....
Very good commentary and you did your homework as usual. I remember you the Cigna that won a best design award a year ago So they do serious horology And yes tons of fakes too Still the main issue is value retention. Worth mentioning, have lived and worked in China many years, if you see a foreigner wearing a luxury brand watch it’s probably a fake but if a Chinese wears one it’s definitely a real one Good job 3T
😂😂😂How absolutely true! It’s not uncommon to see genuine $200,000 Patek complications on wrists in Shanghai.
Thank you for your personel thoughts and feelings at the end.
Yessssssss, preach! You need to get some hands on time with the Atelier Wen Perception!
What I noted is attention to detail in some and some not and lack of quality control in others.
I have a dollar limit of 250 for them as I know any customer service if problems is little or non existent.
I like Long Island watches. You never hear him say they're made in vhina but stands behind them in America and cracks the whip on quality control and has made many of his newer watches to a higher sophistication level. I'd buy his over San Martin's.
As far as Chinese watches go, I have a Sugess (ST1901), a Steeldive (NH35), and a Seestern (NH 34). My experience with Chinese movements is limited to the ST1901 which is very nice indeed.
China has never been in the "prestige" goods business (for anything, not just watches). That doesn't necessarily mean their watches are crap, but they won't be thought of as being in the same tier as the big Swiss watchmakers any time soon. Japan had the same reputation for selling cheap, mass-produced crap and it took a long time for them to shake it.
China have been producing some of the best wood based musical instruments for a long time..want a great cello? China make them.
They also make some of the worst instruments available. Like most of them hanging on the wall in any music store.
If you want top quality anything, China can provide it if you are willing to pay for it and know which company to approach. Their industries are capable of producing every grade possible. You choose how much you want to pay.
and Japan still hasn't completely shaken it off. That's why you have tons of former Seiko fans that complain about the prices being too high. Even they don't think Seiko is worth paying for.
Bro, tea.
And we’re grateful to you Jory for bringing us the content and your sense of humour.
Can you do an episode on the various Chinese watch movements (Seagull/Hamghzou...etc.) and rank them.
Most Swiss watches are also made somewhere but assembled in Switzerland. Criteria are that 40% of Money spent in making a Watch needs to be spent in Switzerland to be able to write swiss made on it, so...just pay some Guy to polish a Watch more than it costs to produce it in China, and it can be considered Swiss made.
I bought a skmei automatic watch, and owns several seagull. What I see is, the Chinese could made great watches with good quality to downright terrible watches. BUT even their big brands are already stained by their own tendency to copy other brand's designs with minimal quantity of original designs. In seagull's own website, the 'original' designs are mostly consists of skeletonized cheap looking and gaudy design that are sold for hundreds of dollars. Tbh, big Chinese brands usually offers watches with rather 'lazy' designs.
I have a lot of Chinese watches, which I love. Most of them use the NH35 or the PT5000 and they are GOOD watches...!!! Sea-Gull, Tandorio and Beijing are some of my faves..!!!
My Seestern Doxa homage with the Seiko NH35 movement. Totally awesome!
I'm surprised you didn't mention FIYTA, pronounced FEE-YA-TA. They make watches for the Chinese space program. I own the Shen Zhou that is worn by Taikonauts, and the FIYTA Spacemaster, a super interesting space mechanical chronograph made for extra vehicular activities (Space walks). It has unusual subdials with different lume colors (Blue and Green) to mark 30minutes and 45 minutes, this indicates the time a taikonaut has to complete certain tasks, before he must head back into the space vehicle. It also has an unusual bezel that goes up to 8 hours, the useful life of a space suit. Are they as good as the Omega Speedmaster or Fortis Cosmonaut watches--no. But they are amazing conversation pieces, and highly unusual. They are super hard to find and purchase. When I got the Shen Zhou, I had to open a bank account in China to purchase it. The Spacemaster I got from a shop in Germany by sheer luck. All are numbered and when they are gone, they are gone. But they did release a new Spacemaster version this year.
I have a Sea-gull Bauhaus design that I bought since at that moment I couldn’t afford the Nomos Tangente. Till this day I haven’t bought the Tangente because it looks so similar and its so well build that Id rather just buy another Nomos model. Im not saying its a Tangente clone, but as a general example of Bauhaus design its perfect.
What a genuine guy.
I watched that and read all these comments, because I'm interested in Chinese-branded watches. At this point, a lot of them are derivative, but there may be a coming micro-brand crisis that'll rival the quartz-crisis. So, I'm interested.
I'm glad a few commenters already mentioned that a lot of Swiss watches are largely made in China. (Swiss requirements for in-country content are pretty lax.) And, sorry to say, but I bet everybody who commented that they don't buy Chinese products for political/moral reasons has a house full of them.
Agelocer tourbillon, wow, what a marvellous watch. I've bought one & fair dues to them. It is stunning.
I personally love them and enjoy trolling the gatekeepers. Folks crack me up, they are just watches! Let's not get into the tech and smartphones that most of these fools are using to whine about Chinese homage watches. This is also an internet thing only. In the real world most folks pay no attention, and they definitely wouldn't have the balls to disparage it to your face if they did.
The ST19 chronograph movement on my Alpha speedmaster homage broke after just 5 months
I have a Gute (Give you the Excellent) dress watch. It's pretty much a bargain basement Longines Master clone with a different date window. For $22 it's a sexy automatic watch.
Sugess and Boderry are two brands that have impressed me more than seiko, tissot, or alot of entry level brands have. Seiko is still my favourite but Sugess is easily the close second.
Jory,I collect watches that are swiss and others and puchased thirty chinese and I am
going to see how good they are. Time will tell keep you posted.so far two crowns fell out
brand new. UGH
The reasons I won't buy a Chinese or Russian watch is that it at least indirectly supports authoritarian regimes. I have no idea under what circumstances Seagull movements are made, but I'm dead sure that worker right standards are much lower there. I don't say that companies in the West are inherently good and that the system is not flawed but buying a Sinn is not the same as contributing to Russia's export figures and western currency access by buying a Vostok. Also, shipping something from China to me in Europe is just an unnecessary burden on the environment. I do find the Seagull 1963 cool though and I would have already bought it were it made in Finland for example.
So you don't buy anything. Got it.
@@nobodynever7884 This statement is just as meaningless as if I were to accuse you that you buy tomato and potato imported from China just to support the oil industry. Jeez, could it be that this isn't so black & white? :D
Traditional Chinese watch barnds, such as Sea-Gull and Fiyta, are actually quite good. Meanwhile some local microbrands, coming into being in the past few years, are more interesting. Timethis, Farasute, Ixdao, just to name a little.
I ordered a RDUNAE and a BERNY. Any good? Will see, but seem to have a positive reputation. | Starking? Well, if it doesn't arrive DOA.
I had a Sugess chronograph and one of the hands fell off the sub dial. I paid to have it put back on and it fell off again so I trashed it. Literally the only Chinese watch I've ever bought and it was also the only watch I've ever thrown away.
Really refreshing take on watches. Really enjoying the channel.
Any thoughts on the Aesop tourbillon? (sp)
With the exception of Seagull Chinese watches do not have history or originality. If I go to AliExpress I don´t find any creativity. It is all just interchangeable within the different styles of watches. I can not connect emotionally with these soulless mass products.
After 2 years of searching Seiko, Orient, Hamilton, etc. for "MY" watch, the Steeldive SD1970 "Captain Willard" for $70 fills the bill. It's not a "FAKE" and specs outshine the original.
Great topic to discuss, could you make a tier list of the best Chinese brands, thanks
I have 2 china watches. One pocket one wrist. Both are silly over the top skeleton units. And both 25$. They are what they are and 2 years in both still work great
Of course it's worth buying a Chinese watch. Most brands in the entry level utilize Chinese parts anyway. It's no coincidence that when covid hit eta movements where in short supply. Or bracelets on "swiss watches". Seiko, casio, timex, citizen, etc. all utilize Chinese parts. Same with "swiss" entry level brands. If anyone has a problem with the labor aspect, i better not hear they wear 95% of clothing brands.
And the homage aspect, they better not wear jeans that aren't Levi's.
Idk, the list goes on. China should be considered in anyone's collection imo.
I have not had good luck with almost all mechanical products produced in China. It primarily has to do with basically no quality controls and least expensive raw materials available. Maybe watches is where they excel.
I have a Baltany in my collection and it's one of my favourites.
I am sure there are a few somponents in swiss watches, ie movements, maybe even rolex, are made in china.
1963 is my birth year. I get one by birthright, I have one, and I love it. Got it from Marc LIW. 40mm. Love it. Oh yeah said that.
I bought the San Martin homage just do I could get a feel of the MM300. I then bought the Seiko LX spring drive. I could have ended up with a watch I did not love.
Besides most independent and Micro brands get their watches made in China.
I have 4 Steeldive watches and really like them but my favourite is still my Seiko