Has Barry been there secretly off screen for a long time though? When did Barry really get here? Are Ellen and Luke secretly plants as well? Is producer John orchestrating this whole thing as some kind of Evil Plastic Gardener Overlord?
Teaching is not the same for a every teacher and every student, different teachers fit different students. You have your way of delivery and it fit a specific type of people
I'm an Italian currently on his 32-day streak learning Russian, and I'm totally in agreement with Ellen here. Duolingo may be useful for learning new words, but it certainly doesn't give you the grammatical rules and phrase structure, and sometimes I get really confused. Plus, sometimes the phrases it gives you are quite strange, to be frank... That's why, as a rule of thumb, I generally integrate with the following: - study the phonemes first, so that I may pronounce things as correctly as I can; - pronounce things out loud even when Duolingo doesn't require it and think how to say stuff before looking at the words that it suggests; - during the day I try to think about how I would say some phrases in certain situations; - online grammar lessons on UA-cam or other sites; - keep a notepad with all the main rules and some vocabulary. Will this work? I most definitely do not know, but it seems to be ok for now. But I already know the day will come when I will give the bird... the bird, and try a more serious approach.
I think you're doing it right - like it's going to depend on the person, but generally kids learn best with pure immersion, but young adults and up need more structure, some idea of the explicit rules they need to learn, that kind of thing. So going to sites that explain the actual grammar is probably going to help a lot! So is writing stuff down (just generally that can help a lot of people remember things better). I'd try to find some stuff in Russian too (audio/video and written stuff like websites) that's not way above your level, so you get practice with the real language. Some news sites can be good for this! You can find ones that use fairly simple language, and they can talk about stuff you're already familiar with Duolingo's good for drilling those concepts once you know them - learning purely through exposure is ehhhh, maybe for some people it's effective, but most people need that structure. Also the hearts situation they've pushed on everyone really hurts that idea of immersing people until they click with what's happening, because you're punished for the mistakes that are part of that learning process! I think having all the words visible (rather than making you come up with an answer from nothing) harms language development too, it's like training wheels that you end up relying on, and you struggle in situations where you don't have them
I've got experience learning multiple languages academically (including English) and 3+ years of teaching English both in person and online, in groups and one on one. With all that I can say that Duolingo is useful, but only as a supplement to something else. It doesn't have to be a teacher-led class, but you definitely need to work with a textbook for grammar, at least to some degree; and with a person who speaks the language for speaking and writing. Without that Duolingo is borderline useless, while with it it can be somewhat fruitful. You shouldn't expect a significant boost to your skills just because you're using duo, though. Gamification adds a false sense of progress and may lead to overconfidence in people who have made no progress in the studying department of the thing that is gamified, unfortunately.
Back when I was learning italian duolingo didn't have this streamlined structure, lessons were classified by subject and you could easily see this on the menu. It was great for coordinating with the grammar studies, as it provided alsosome exercises for it. Now, guarda che coincidenza, I'm studying russian and duolingo fucking sucks! The declension cases are far apart from each other and it's hard to find them in this mess of a menu. If you're just going on a trip to somewhere, it works great like this, but if you actually want to learn a new language, the order that the lessons are displayed will conflict with whateve program you have going on the grammar side
I speak several languages, but I bounced off of Russian pretty hard. Between the extra cases like prepositional and locative, you also get to memorize perfective *and* imperfective verbs pairs. Fun! I love the sound of the language, but the grammar is a bear.
@@CantankerousDave I started with Russian as my native language so that made it a bit easier. If that any consolation, when learning English you have to memorise a whole lot of spellings the origins of which are very murky. "So basically the French scholars didn't like the way it looked, so they changed the spelling to fit their linguistic beauty standards" is a surprisingly frequent reason of quirky spellings. Although come to think of it, natives had to learn this mess it too.
I love how Producer Jon is now an absolutely integral part of things, its so nice to hear his voice off camera. He's like the DM or the Voice of Reason (sometimes).
A good maths teacher can teach maths even to people with dyscalculia or little interest. They offer tools and tricks to circumnavigate everyday pitfalls in all kinds of situations, from shopping over large financial decisions to understanding why the statistics shown on TV are lying to you about an important topic. So you have every right to feel validated - mathematics are an exceedingly important skill!
I do teach languages and felt all the didactic/language acquisition theory from uni creep into my brain and make me shudder when Ellen described duolingo's teaching methods
@@LiopleurodonFeroxYou could go the traditional Latin route, involving threat of death for writing the misconjugated “Romanes eunt domus”. (In college, my Japanese professor and German professor once sat down next to me while I was eating lunch in the student union and made me translate from one to the other. They liked to push me.)
My daughter tested out of Spanish, Italian, & Chinese in college thanks to Duolingo; however, she supplemented it with talking with people that know the language. It's leaps and bounds better than what most of the schools in the US do. Her teachers even highly encourage the use of Duolingo. Duolingo is part of a toolkit and can't be your only solution. The only true way to learn the language is to speak it with people regularly. You need to actually converse.
I think you're spot on about the problems with Duolingo, Ellen! As a linguist, whenever someone has asked me how to learn a new language, or whether Duolingo is any good, I always say that it's great at being supplemental, but not at being the primary engagement with a language you get. Duolingo is good at one thing: getting you to engage with your target language every day, and while that is a great thing, it's also not the only thing you need to learn a new language. However, that is literally Duolingo's ENTIRE goal, and their sole didactic aim is to keep you coming back. That means that if they have a choice between something that will make you learn the language more effectively but is boring and will cause people to stop using the app, and something that doesn't really teach you much but will ensure you come back tomorrow, they will pick the latter. This isn't entirely without merit - they are relying on studies that show that the #1 predictor of success for language learners is practicing daily. In my opinion, though, daily practice is a proxy for the actual thing that increases your likelihood of success, and that is self-motivation. Anyway it sounds like Ellen has fallen afoul of one of Duolingo's biggest problems: it has an almost pathological fear of actually teaching you anything. For instance, it sounds like she's unaware that every unit of every language has a Guidebook associated with it, which is like a chunk out of a textbook, teaching you concepts and giving you examples. With a recent app update they made it much more prominent, but they still don't ever really TELL you about it. You can see it at 9:55 - it's that banner that says "Section 2: Explorer". It looks a bit different from that now, but that notebook icon on the right? If you tap that, it gives you an admittedly brief lesson. It will actually TEACH you in there, like giving you the conjugation tables for verbs, or explain quixotic things like which verbs are reflexive. It is easily the worst thing about Duolingo that they don't teach you more, so it's ridiculous that this vital feature is so easy to miss.
6:49 Duolingo doesn't call it out, but on the unit/section headers is a button for "Guidebook" that will explain those rules that Ellen said are missing. The Unit 6 Guidebook for Italian has the conjugation rules.
The guidebooks used to have grammar rules and verb tables. Now Duolingo, in all their wisdom, have replaced these with simple lists about 6-8 phrases, with no explanation of the grammar. If you don't see this change yet, you will soon - it's been rolled out gradually to various users. It sucks.
@@lexmole Thank you for that sage advice which I never would have conceived of on my own accord. I'm so glad I have you to guide me. Still doesn't change the fact that it used to be in Duolingo and now it's not, though.
We went to Italy for our honeymoon, and while we learned the words for please, thank you, sorry, excuse me, very well and such, we also learned how to ask if the Italian person we were speaking to spoke English, and the majority of people were very happy to speak English and actually thanked us for asking them. 😁👌 Such a beautiful country and lovely people.
Okay, I'm normally just a lurker, I don't comment on ANYTHING, but that last line, Ellen, absolutely broke me. I am still giggling. And more generally, I have to say I love these kind of videos. I always think of Outside Xtra as 'adult gamer culture' and this was a key example. Love it and thank you
My Japanese streak is now 1366 days and I'd say I speak basic Japanese. However, I also get actual lessons and study outwith Duolingo. No chance I'd be saying that if it was just the app.
Funny thing is that Duolingo EXPLICITLY STATES that just using the app is not enough and even offers additional resources on learning languages through their blog posts. I'm not surprised that people who ignore that and only use the app never get good in a language. I am at 685 days of Italian in Duolingo, but I also write stuff down, do vocabulary cards, read Italian news and watch shows on Netflix (Rick and Morty is GREAT in Italian 😂). I'm not FLUENT, but I can understand and write a lot. Speaking's lacking though.
Yeah you need to do more than just use Duolingo to learn a language, Duolingo really just teaches you to be good at Duolingo. It's fine as a supplemental tool but if that's all you're doing you'll not make much progress.
@@jacopopiovesan3882 For real! I'm from Germany, so I'm somewhat spoiled when it comes to quality dubbing (I even worked in video game localization and did dubs myself for a few years, so I got to meet some real artists in that field), but the Italian dubs I heard so far are EASILY on the same level.
As someone whose first language is a romance one (italian, spanish, french etc), learning english from romance seems significantly easier than romance from english. Specially when it comes to the gender of words, since every noun has a gender in romance languages.
English dropped almost all of the masculine / feminine endings and cases for verbs and the like. Balancing that is a lot of irregular rules and about a zillion vocabulary words in general use. So coming from romance to English you might trip over having so many different ways to say the same thing that are not 100 percent equivalent.
I've been doing Arabic for over 4 years now in Duolingo (including some patches where i was just repeating the same stuff), in fact i just finished the course. I would definitely agree that it doesn't do grammar well, tenses, genders etc. All remain a mystery. I think it really demonstrates the weakness of gamifying things which is that it makes you really good at playing the game not the thing itself. At this point im very good at Duolingo and not particularly good at Arabic
I like the plant. It really ties the room together. My family has a plant, that is nearly 20 years old monstera - I cannot remember where we got it from- which I named "Chuck", like the plant from ManiacMansion. In it's hayday Chuck was nearly three meters tall, but last winter my mom gave it a new hibernation spot where it nearly died and lot most of it's leaves and a bunch of it's stems/air-roots. But it recovered miraculously, now a lot smaller, but none the less!
I liked this story, thanyou for sharing👍! It's so cool you named it and that it has been part of the family so long. Plants have amazing recovery powers indeed. I have a couple indoor plants that came back miraculously from nothing and now they totally brighten up the room!
The appeal of Duolingo for me anyway is that, even though real progress is super slow, I am making progress, and I don''t have the time, money, or capacity for stress for real lessons. Like, if i weren't using Duolingo, I wouldn't be doing french at all, because real lessons are stressful, and expensive, and self directed study is unsustainable long term. At the very least my french is getting slowly better over time, instead of regressing from lack of use.
When I was taking Spanish in high school and my teacher told us to DuoLingo to refresh our brains in between classes, but she said it wasn’t a substitute for a teacher. So Ellen’s comment about how it could work with a teacher is helpful.
I've been learning Norwegian for almost 4 years with duolingo, it was much better before because there were actual written lessons explaining the grammar and comments where people would answer questions about the language, the Norwegian course is still good though, the courses vary in quality immensely. Og nå kan jeg snakke norsk, ikke mye, men jeg er fornøyd med det.
@@GriffinWolf I'm doing Spanish too. You can still see the forums where actuall people and native speakers would post the explanations? How? I want to still see them too.
@@Deinareia This thread is about the explanations, not the forums. I wish the forum would come back, but the "guidebook" with grammar explanations is definitely still there.
I'm almost at a year streak of German and English, and yeah- even though Duolingo has some short explanations for each chapter, it really helps to learn at least basic grammar somewhere else. It works quite well as a tool to re-learn a language you've been taught in school, and a reminder to use it at least a little bit each day (that can make quite a difference)- but I think that treating Duolingo like a game kinda works against it:) Either way, congratulations for sticking with it for a year (or "putting up with it"- whichever fits better)!
I got a minor in German over 10 years ago. I rarely used it after. This episode inspired me to download Duolingo to refresh myself. It's been fun adding to my vocabulary and stuff but I can't imagine starting from scratch.
@@digdude64 Yeah, I had German lessons in school for years, but aside from two lessons per week never really used it. Decade later I was surprised how much I can actually remember after a bit of a refresher:) Starting a course about Ukrainian last month was a different experience- lessons about the alphabet are nicely done, but notes in Duolingo's "guidebook" are just a few translated conversations with no explanation of constructing sentences or declination. I imagine anyone to whom English is a native language would have a rough time with that course
Duo Lingo is ok for engaging with a language at a basic level, classes are good for learning fundamentals of a language, but I think they all lack the immersion of actually engaging in a language. Having friends you can practice with, going to the places that speak the language, or going to things like cultural exchanges are all great ways to progress
Dualingo is great, as part of a balanced diet. As a beginner, you’re not going to learn words by just „immersing“, this is just good old fashioned repetitive learning. Then, once you have the basics down, you also need to compliment it with conversations, watching tv shows etc
100% agree. It’s great for extra credit and fun, but the fact that it can’t explain things really hurts learning. It’s more of a game disguised as a language-learning app.
If you click the heart in the top corner, you can practice to earn more hearts, it earns you xp and you can't fail it, no cost to hearts etc. I feel like this might fix a few of your gripes here. I've done 3 years of Spanish and bits of French and German before I've travelled and I agree with it being hard to learn for actually structuring your own thoughts and sentences, useful for politeness and a few basics though
Duolingo helped me greatly learning Hangul (the Korean writing system) but everything Ellen said I agree and I went for a classic grammar book with accompanying CD next. I might end up trying a teacher eventually, the goal is to travel to Korea and stumble with words a lot there. That’s how I got better in English, Japanese and French: by eventually embarrassing myself a lot, testing the patience of people and just trying to talk said language.
That sounds like a great goal, hope you'll make it a reality! I can't get past the "embarrassing myself" part, and still actively avoiding voice chats:D
That was my experience with learning Korean also. Duolingo was great for learning Hangul, but then I just had random words of vocabulary and no real idea how to put them together. The example sentences they used were also bizarre sometimes. "The baby likes fox milk" kind of bizarre.
It's good to use as a supplement to a class. My daughter has done 3 years of duo lingo alongside 2 years of spanish class, she started duo lingo one year before the class. Duo lingo gave her a good head start for the class, knowing a bunch of words but it was the class that got her to actually start to understand and speak spanish properly.
I always admired one of my uncles strategy when in France, given he spoke, essentially, a handful of words and phrases, the most useful of which was "My wife doesn't speak French" which, he said, directly appealed to Gallic chivalry... and got people to speak in English. Which rather annoyed my aunt who _did_ speak French and my uncle's habit deprived her of the opportunity to practice the language as often as she would like.
Had a streak of 1100 days (French, then added Spanish, then added Irish Garlic), paid for it, spent over 2 years in the Diamond League, and I agree. Even knowing the words I'd never feel comfortable trying to hold a conversation in any of the languages. Ended the streak when I started teaching this year (math) due to being busy. Don't know if I'll go back. (By the way, if you thought 375 was high, just wait to see the Diamond League, where top finishers frequently have >10K points, and where sometimes I've seen users with >4K points in a week relegated downwards...
I must have started at the exact same time as Ellen on the Japanese course and I feel the same way. At the beginning with basic sentences it was fine but then duo began to throw grammar rules at me without ever explaining them, it was also testing me on the sound and kanji of vocab without ever telling me the english translation. When they straight up deleted the forums that were actually helping me learn I lost all motivation. This video inspired me to give it up for good and try a different approach. ありがとうございます。
As a 1216-day streak holder, the Japanese course has been revised thrice since I started. Some of the translations have gotten _worse_ since then. One of the newer minigames translated the word 半 (meaning "half") as "thirty," which is flat-out wrong. Duolingo's course somehow associated it with "thirty" because it's used in the Japanese equivalent of the phrase "half past (time)"
I did a year in German on Super Duolingo and the leaderboards stressed me out so much. You can opt out of them by making your profile private. While it doesn’t diminish the pressure the app puts on you, it does help with the competitive aspect of it.
I tried every way I could find to learn Japanese for 20 years and couldn't get it. For about 2 months recently, I switched my phone to Japanese, and listened to bilingual podcasts where both languages were spoken, and lots of lessons. In those two months, I learned more than I had in the previous twenty years. I also recommend children's stories, and Discord language exchange servers. I'm still using Duolingo to learn some vocabulary, but that's all it's good for.
I love Duolingo, so I feel obliged to say you don't have to pay for hearts! If you click on the heart symbol you can choose practice mode to earn hearts. Also if you want to earn more xp you can do the special lessons which are hidden in a different tab. Also you can earn a lot of xp if you do a lesson in the morning and in the evening. If you do lessons in those hours you earn a double xp bonus for the next evening or morning which you can activate in the shop
Exactly what I do ^^ The post-6am/pm bonuses were intro'd relatively recently and I feel they're nice little incentives which were more effective than before they introduced them; doing double the amount you used to ^^ Some apps are very much 'CONTINUE YOUR DAILY LOGIN OR SUFFER', but Duo feels more like positive encouragement ^^
Yes! The practice mode is honestly kind of my fave and I bring it up to any one I know who uses Duolingo because it's amazing how many people aren't aware of it! It even still gives some XP along with refilling hearts. And it's a nice change of pace if you want to do a more casual "speed run" session where you try to answer as quickly and instinctively as possible, instead of puzzling answers out through logic to avoid losing hearts.
Love how Ellen is like "I can't understand how this word is what it is" when the entire English language is "Well, we did this, but also this which means the same thing! Also it's wrong now, lol"
As the writer H. Beam Piper said "English is the result of Norman men-at-arms trying to make dates with Saxon barmaids in old Roman towns, and is no more legitimate than any of the other offspring of such encounters"
I once worked with a guy who immigrated from Cuba. He learned Italian and then learned English, and he said he recommended that for going from Spanish to a English and vice-versa. According to him, Italian is similar enough to both languages to make it easier to learn & when you do it’s easier to move to the other language ftom there.
I've got a 2360 day streak and spent over 6 years learning German. I still wouldn't say I'm fluent, but for 5-15 minutes a day, I'm happy with what I've learnt. I know a lot of people are down on Duolingo as a learning method, but the way I look at is it's much better than nothing. And most other methods (books, tapes, Rosetta Stone, Pimsleaur) aren't really any better. Only live classes with a native speaker are really better. My main wish for Duolingo is that it would add a feature to tell you *why* your answer is wrong and also why the correct answer is correct. Because as Ellen says Duolingo doesn't make any deliberate attempt to team you the 'rules' of the language (it has help pages, but that's worse than a book) and German has a *lot* of grammar rules with lots of exceptions that are difficult to remember just from reading them in a book (or the help page of an app).
Anche io sto usando Duolingo, ho fatto tutto il corso di cinese ma serviva più come sussidio mentre facevo lezioni vere e proprie con un insegnante. Adesso faccio spagnolo e ho una streak di oltre 800! Penso che per imparare e mantenere attivo il vocabolario possa servire abbastanza bene ma è sempre meglio avere anche un insegnante vero. Non portate via Barry!
Agree 100%! When I had a Spanish streak, I remember a lot of the times where I had to press the words in order to translate into English, I'd just base it off of what sentence would make sense in English rather than what the Spanish actually was. It's great for vocab you might not get otherwise but it didn't/hasn't done much for my comprehension as a whole.
I've been working toward 100% all the achievements within duolinogo. Much more daunting undertaking then it sounds. But I'm most of the way there. I've completed the hardest achievements (for 365 days streak, 30000 total xp, #1 ranked in diamond league) and just have to finish through a couple more grindy achievements. Pretty soon I'll have finished Duolingo, though. ...this was the end goal, right?....
Did you learn Italian? If yes, how is it? Can you talk in Italian now? Listen to Italian songs while understanding them? How often did you use it and why is it that everyone speaks bad about it? I just started it and was very motivated to learn Italian with Duolingo but this kinda demotivates me. Would be glad if you could answer! :)
@@HealedInChrist thanks for your reply! I respect your initiative to seek out a secondary opinion, instead of trusting the first (and more popular) individual you heard from. To answer your questions; I can't personally attest to learning Italian via Duolingo, as I have been learning French for the better part of the last three years (I just got my 912 day duolingo streak). However, Italian is categorically within the same family as French. So, I imagine that the duolingo courses can't be too drastically different in their structure. I've also taken various language classes in school from the elementary - collegiate levels; covering Spanish and some Portuguese. I can also compare my experiences between professionally instructed language classes and duolingo. As far as the effectiveness of learning a language through Duolingo; you get out of it what you put it. But this is exactly how I feel about most resources that can be utilized for language learning. I feel that I've learned an incredible amount of my desired language, considering the amount of time I've personally invested. I also think its easily possible for a different individual to progress much further within their desired language course in the same time period, as I frequently had trouble progressing my lessons due to ongoing issues with my mental health. As an alternative; I opt to practice previously completed lessons in order to strengthen my skills, and because it feels less mentally taxing to review as opposed to learning something new. I can't speak fluent French yet, but I feel like I will be able to someday if I continue learning through duolingo. And as mentioned previously; there is a possibility i could be more fluent in the language at this point if I spent more time on new lessons. However, I can speak and understand most of the basic phrases that would be needed to communicate with someone in French and extract or relay basic information. I feel with slightly more practice that I would feel comfortable traveling to a French speaking region, and feel confident I would be able to navigate all the basic conversation necessary to order food, ask for directions, check into a hotel, etc. I might not flourish in a French speaking region, but I could likely survive. I've noticed that I can usually pick up on French phrases being spoken in English language films/tv shows. They are often simple phrases, because the programs I'm watching aren't typically natively French and instead just have some French speaking characters. Regardless, I'm still able to quickly pick up on the fact that someone is speaking French and more often than not I can translate the rough idea of what's being said; without the need for subtitles or an outside translation source. I've frequently changed my language in video games to French if I've been playing the same game a lot. I've changed the spoken dialogue to be French a few times, to hear some new voice acting and voice lines I haven't already heard a million times before. I've even changed the actual in game text/menus to be French in one game I enjoy speedrunning repeatedly. I haven't listened to much French music yet, but I also haven't been expanding my musical horizons much lately. I've heard that French Hip-Hop is very high quality, as far as rap goes, so I've been meaning to try out some more French rap artists. I have intent to purchase a French language version of my favorite graphic novel, and intend to be able to read through it without much issue within the near future. It helps that I have a reference point from reading the book in English originally, however. Regardless, duolingo has lessons specifically focused on learning to read stories; so learning to read in your desired language should be very much possible through Duolingo . Lastly, I have no idea why people speak poorly of duolingo. I wasn't even aware it had that stigma; as my friends and I have used it without issue for years without ever spending any money on it. Compared to the actual language classes I took through my schooling, I feel I've learned significantly more from Duolingo. Its possible that the format of Duolingo just works better for me, and that it won't necessarily work well for everyone. But after years of studying Spanish in school, including 2 semesters in college, I can't speak it or understand anything from this language. I got an A in both of my college languages classes, as well. However, after my time with duolingo I feel I have actually learned some lasting language skills and have a desire to continue learning the French language until it is second nature to me. I hope this was able to answer some of your questions, and possibly help inspire you to give duolingo (or atleast language learning in general) another try. I'm still so disappointed that Ellen said all these negative, and mostly untrue, statements regarding duolingo. Ever since this video released I haven't been able to enjoy any video that includes Ellen. I used to watch all oxbox+xtra content, but now actively avoid videos featuring Ellen because her comments effected my opinion of her so heavily. Whether you try using duolingo again or not; I hope you're able to have a lovely rest of your day and that life treats you well moving forward!
That overly formal bent is the exact experience I've had learning Hungarian with Duolingo. It wants me to bid farewell with "Viszontlátásra" or Viszlát", but I spent enough time in Budapest speaking to actual Hungarians to know how weird it would be to use those in most settings. Duolingo is only useful in concert with other learning sources.
In my head canon the plant's name ended up as Colin-Barry and he can never not be in the frame anymore ...... I bet there is also a complex and well thought-out backstory for Colin-Barry that Luke and Ellen can't wait to tell us about.... 😆
Years ago I took Japanese at uni. It's been over a decade and I wanted to refresh my skills. What they teach for Japanese and what I remember my teachers teaching are vastly different. There's a Japanese phrase that you say when meeting people that is literally "Please be kind to me." Duolingo has it as "Nice to meet you." Bit different there. Like Ellen said: learn from a teacher when at all possible. Duolingo is a helpful study aid, but it needs a lot more input and help before being able to fully teach a language.
Yoroshiku can be used a hundred different ways - Nice to meet you, happy to be here, I look forward to doing business with you, thanks for having me, please do this thing for me, etc. It’s all about context.
I have a more than two year streak on Japanese because I felt myself losing bits of it from my university Japanese and wanting to improve. It's really just vocabulary help. If that were all, that would be fine. However, not only does it present some things in ways that while not breaking any 'hard and fast' rules, are said in ways that one just wouldn't use. It makes differentiations that don't exist in the language ('sensei' can mean both 'teacher' and 'doctor' but not to the bird!). Most frustratingly, it speaks things out with non-native accents! That might help when learning with other non-native speakers but the point is to learn the native accents! I don't want my ear, and thus my own voice, to be tuned to the accent of a person from India who learned Japanese, I want to sound more like native speakers!
COMPLETELY agree with this video. I downloaded Duolingo to dust off my GCSE French and it was absolutely useless because it was essentially logic puzzles for how a sentence should go and it being multiple choice a lot of the time I felt I never had to remember the right word but just figure out what the right one is. Like if you asked me cold what the french word for IDK the station was I wouldn't be able to tell you but I could look at the list and go "well it's not chat, chien or monsieur is it" I then decided to give it another go on a language I knew nothing about and tried Arabic, and again the lives thing made it useless because it would show you random letters of the alphabet and then get mad at you were confused about how the alphabet worked
I've never tried Duolingo but I have taken 5 years of German and I will definitely say don't be too surprised about not getting syntax and proper sentence structure down pat in a year. A great way to think of it is "You've been learning this language for a year, you are essentially a one year old for a native speaker." Also I completely agree with Luke regarding these types of learning experiences being so much better in person though.
I started learning Spanish using Duo Lingo over the last two weeks whilst on holiday and I found it really good! The actual sentences it gets you to practice aren't very helpful, but getting to know what basic things are ("I would like" or "Where is the...?" for example) is really helpful 😊 I enjoy the game aspect of DL but I'm under no illusion it will teach me a full language 😂 I've been able to have conversations in Spanish using what I have learned though🎉
Courses on Duolingo vary greatly in quality. I started out with Indonesian (because it's exotic and relatively easy to learn), but the course never explained anything - it just showed you words and phrases and told you what they meant. I decided that my time would be better spent refreshing the French and German that I did at school REDACTED years ago (they had been explained to me, even if it was a long time ago). Imagine my surprise when every lesson had a "Tips" section outlining the grammar and vocabulary it introduced.
Hey, no fair! I've got a 50 day Duolingo streak in Russian and I'm perfectly able to communicate! Well, it's mostly the 50 day streak. And maybe having studied it for several years, traveling to Russia for language courses, doing language tandems, and exhausting pretty much every other language app/service out there, so Duolingo is my last resort to keep practicing. But it's mostly the 50 days, I swear!
I have been over 1000xp as ftp... but I also just reset my progress in Hebrew because I got quite far in the exploratory level and then felt like I had missed some crucial rules in constructing past tense. So I'm reviewing in the rookie level of the course and it's much easier to get perfects. I also make it a goal to to either complete a whole circle or half of one every day that I practice (like Ellen, I make liberal use of streak freezes). I also have the unfair advantage of already being multilingual 😅 I learned German at uni and it gave me a solid background in how to learn a language. Speaking with friends or teachers is the most helpful way to get real experience, and adding the structure of the grammatical rules around the vocabulary you're learning from Duo is the second most helpful. Ultimately, Duolingo is a not-very-fun game and better for reviewing content you know and learning vocabulary than trying to learn the language itself from scratch
The moment Duolingo added the life system, it became expressly clear to me that their goal was not to help people learn languages, but to make people think they were learning a language while extracting as much money from them as possible.
Duolingo was great for me a few years back - I did a Spanish GCSE but this got me way further in way less time. But there's a point where it stopped being useful, except for kinda drilling various grammar things. After that, doing stuff like watching videos or listening to podcasts in Spanish, or reading actual Spanish books or websites, and using a dictionary to check stuff - that was way more useful because it's actual communication! (Missing the speaking/writing side but y'know) Things were better then though - the actual explanation content was more visible (a lot of people don't even know it's there) and you could also post on the discussions for each question, which was a gold mine for info about what's going on here and what grammar is in use and why not this instead etc. They locked those and I heard some people can't even read what's there anymore? The hearts thing was the last straw for me, just really disappointing for a project that claimed free education was important to them, locking people out ain't it
@@Snailirific yeah you can, but it's basically forcing you to do something else, instead of the learning you actually want to do. And ime "practice" ends up being basic stuff from way earlier in the tree that you really don't need to spend time on. If I'm getting stuff wrong, then that's what I need to practice, not "X eats apples" over and over, y'know? It wastes your time and feels like punishment you're gonna want to skip (and that's the incentive to pay up)
I did duolingo alongside Danish classes for years and founf it so unhelpful - it's like it drills you to translate back into English and then out into the language again which isn't how conversing works, so it's just unhelpful.anyway i have strong feelings about the owl app and i'm pleased someone else is saying it too
Next to each unit title, there is an icon of a booklet. If you click it, you will get the explanation how to sausage is made in relation to each unit's topic.
Thank you from my heart for this video. I'm playing duolingo for years and all these things you said is so true. (my first problem was the "ok, I've learned three ways for good bye, but when do I have to use them? Which one I use in a shop? or a restaurant?" And duolingo does not teach this) It is a good way to start learning a language, but you have to use other things (for example a real course with a real teacher) if you really want to learn it. And onde more thing: you can practice for more lives in duolingo (which is good, because in these practices you cannot lose a heart and still get gems)
Congrats, Ellen! Keep it up! I have a 1651 day streak and my Spanish still sucks :) I'll mention, as you get further through a course, you get more and more diverse lesson types. It was at least 3 years before I started really getting the hang of the grammar. Ellen, you do know that there's a "tips" section on each lesson that explains the rules, right?? Cause you keep saying it's a guessing game, but you are supposed to do the reading...
I am 1100 days in the Japanese language course on Duolingo (more for a refresher, cuz I did study it a lifetime ago) and for lost lives, I go for the "do a separate lesson to recover your hearts"
Duolingo Plus has been worth it. Just for more streak freezes. But I'll say my spouse did German for a year (he's almost to three years straight now) and was able to go on a business trip. I've done Spanish for over a year and had some good results (but my husband is also around to tell me what's Castilian Spanish vs. what people actually say 😅
I had a similar experience with Duolingo a few years ago. I was doing French and at first it was great, because it was dredging up memories of French classes from when I was a kid, but as soon as I went beyond that level it became impossible because it wasn't really teaching me anything and didn't really offer a way to learn. Meanwhile I've been inadvertantly teaching myself Latin just by having to copy things out on a Facebook page I run.
Furthering this dystopic nightmare of an app, when premium plans were introduced, random accounts were flagged for this 'new experience' of penalties and punishments for being a lowly scrub wanting free education... Where countless other accounts faced no such restrictions. I had two years of some really cool languages under my belt, was considering starting real studies in, and Duolingo killed it for me with its randomly assigned punishments on my account. Bye bye diamond League, I don't miss your arbitrary competitions for the top spot in one of 300 diamond leagues, pretending I'm #1 out of all players to bait me onto your ad force-feeding platform. 🎉
Hey Ellen, I generally agree with most of your issues with Duolingo, I just hit my 3 year streak. One thing I'll point out if you did want to stick with it. If you use the website rather than the app (which I used to do at work during my downtime) there are no lives, so you can just go for as long as you want. I learned a lot more doing that, than I have exclusively in the app.
Totally agree on the whole 'guess why' on Duolingo. I decided I wanted to try to learn French & am currently @ 60 days. I started to get my footing with Le & La but then they go and introduce L' to me with no explanation so now I'm like 'What?'. Same with Vas / Va / Vais. On top of that the speaking sections don't seem that helpful either. I mimic the sentence & it'll say 'wrong' but I won't be able to understand what's wrong with how I've said it. There have also been times when I've botched the sentence, like got tongue tied while speaking it botched. And it'll give me a 'perfect'.
I'm doing japanese in Duolingo (super version) every morning during my train ride to work. Duolingo makes it easy to integrate it into my daily life, but I fully agree, if I wanted to be serious about learning japanese, I definitely need a teacher. There is so much context, grammar, feedback etc. Duolingo just can't provide, you need an actual human for that.
Yes Ellen, exactly. The owl can f**k off. I have a 500+ day streak learning Polish, but my proficiency in Polish (minimal though it is) is based largely on the fact that I have a Polish wife and have been visiting the country for almost 10 years (and I still struggle with huge numbers of basic things). Ellen made a lot of good points about Duolingo, how it focuses on 'streaks' and 'leagues' and other things that don't effing matter when you're trying to build proficiency in a language. It's useful, but it should not be the crux of how you learn a language, just an ancillary way to add some extra practice between whatever 'proper' lessons/studying you're doing. Also, hi Barry, welcome to the team!
Love doing Duolingo! Right now Portuguese (I've been going to Portugal all my life and this year decided to try Duolingo, 133 days in) Spanish, Italian, France, German. When I started it was like, Japanese, Chinese, Norse, Greek, Latin, Swedish, High Valyrian, Klingon, Russian, Polish, Irish... but I soon diminished it to the first five...
Great video. I love it when you're just geeking out about something you like or hate. Still want that documentary about the Ice Troll , though. I would watch that every morning to start my day.
Had a long streak in German for awhile and I liked old Duolingo better. They used to have sentence structure lessons and you could pick from different lessons in a tree. Now it's all linear and themed by vocab with the structure relegated to a little button that gives you a couple of hints. Just got back from Germany not long ago and I realized that the 4 years I did in high school stuck in my head and helped way more than my Duolingo content that seems to have evaporated from my brain.
I've tried Duolingo for a few different languages as well and the vocabulary focus was something I noticed immediately. I'm pretty decent at learning languages, but I prefer a grammar focus. I took Classical Latin for four years in undergrad and then used it for another 2 years in relation to my Linguistics MA. Latin tends to be taught with heavy grammar focus, same for Ancient Greek. I've also taken Japanese both in undergrad and during my MA, and once again it had a heavier grammar focus. It worked perfectly for me. I ran into issues with Duolingo and never stuck with it for long because it didn't let me focus on grammar and I never felt like I was actually learning the language. I just knew random words and that won't help me properly communicate with someone in their own language. I've only ever used the desktop site and that was years ago now, so I have no idea if it functions like the app, but the currencies and such do make it into more of a game than an actual tool for learning a language. Just give me the physical textbooks and I'll teach myself the language. I taught myself the Japanese 201 material over about 3 weeks in grad school because I'd tested into 202 and I hadn't actually learned the 201 material (I just knew enough to know what not to write or whatever). It was easy enough to teach myself a semester's worth of Japanese, but I know that people all learn differently and learning a language is very difficult.
As a native portuguese speaker who understands english I believe I understand Ellen's problem with the composition, after all the verb changes slightly depending on the degree of the subject so does the determiner depending on the gender of it. When learning our language we are told "when in doubt speak it and see what makes sense" so yeah... Could be hard for non latin derivatives
I've been on Japanese for nearly 600 days coming from an English and Spanish background. I still really only pick up a few words here or there, but practicing kanji is a good easy way to extend my streak without any hearts.
I've been learning Spanish through Duolingo, and recently hit a 365-day streak. I'd still struggle to start a conversation in Spanish, though my reading comprehension is /fine/. I'll be looking at proper language lessons at some point, as after all this time I need to make real progress.
FWIW I’m a language teacher. Languages are hard if you aren’t actually communicating with real people. Our brains are wired to analyze and produce language based off our interactions with others. Apps like Duolingo are best viewed as ways to practice vocabulary.
We still have a spot on our Family Duolingo plan if you want it Ellen 😅 I totally agree with a lot of this. There are little articles at the beginning of each unit that better explain some of the grammar rules in the lesson but it isn’t enough. I still get confused in my German lessons all the time about sentence structure. 500 days strong though. You best believe I can say “For the bear a coffee and for me a milk please” in German
Ah, the validation of my feelings about the Owl App. I thought for ages I was just dumb for not understanding the grammar of the languages I was learning, but it really does just not teach you the grammar, and expect you to know it, and then punishes you when you make a grammatical error. It also loves to incessantly insist that a specific word is the word for whatever, then switch it up without teaching you the synonym. It'll say 'this is the word for walk' for weeks, and then randomly get you to translate the sentence 'Bob took a stroll to the shop', and punish you for thinking stroll and walk are the same. ...and breathe
I’m deaf and have zero gift for languages. For some reason I decided that the best time for me to try and learn German was while I was heavily medicated and just wanted to sleep… it didn’t go amazingly.
I've been using Duolingo for a couple of years now, and Ellen's points here describe all of the issues I've faced using it. It's not feeling as effective as when I was learning languages in school
It's so nice that Barry Bamboo is lifting up smaller creators on his show. I think these Luke and Ellen people really could make it.
Love the new cast: Luke, Ellen, and Barry. Great addition, @outsidextra!
I was actually worried they were going to introduce some new random.
Our new beloved, Barry!
Barry is already my favorite in all of Oxbox multiverse
Long live Barry! Long live Barry!
Has Barry been there secretly off screen for a long time though? When did Barry really get here? Are Ellen and Luke secretly plants as well? Is producer John orchestrating this whole thing as some kind of Evil Plastic Gardener Overlord?
As a teacher, hearing Luke say "You can't beat a human teacher" makes me wonder if I'm human, as I have tasted defeat before.
I like that your humanity comes into question before your profession
Teaching is not the same for a every teacher and every student,
different teachers fit different students.
You have your way of delivery and it fit a specific type of people
It's so nice to see Luke and Ellen making a guest appearance on Barry's show.
I keep forgetting that it is Barry's show.
I'm an Italian currently on his 32-day streak learning Russian, and I'm totally in agreement with Ellen here. Duolingo may be useful for learning new words, but it certainly doesn't give you the grammatical rules and phrase structure, and sometimes I get really confused. Plus, sometimes the phrases it gives you are quite strange, to be frank... That's why, as a rule of thumb, I generally integrate with the following:
- study the phonemes first, so that I may pronounce things as correctly as I can;
- pronounce things out loud even when Duolingo doesn't require it and think how to say stuff before looking at the words that it suggests;
- during the day I try to think about how I would say some phrases in certain situations;
- online grammar lessons on UA-cam or other sites;
- keep a notepad with all the main rules and some vocabulary.
Will this work? I most definitely do not know, but it seems to be ok for now. But I already know the day will come when I will give the bird... the bird, and try a more serious approach.
I think you're doing it right - like it's going to depend on the person, but generally kids learn best with pure immersion, but young adults and up need more structure, some idea of the explicit rules they need to learn, that kind of thing. So going to sites that explain the actual grammar is probably going to help a lot! So is writing stuff down (just generally that can help a lot of people remember things better). I'd try to find some stuff in Russian too (audio/video and written stuff like websites) that's not way above your level, so you get practice with the real language. Some news sites can be good for this! You can find ones that use fairly simple language, and they can talk about stuff you're already familiar with
Duolingo's good for drilling those concepts once you know them - learning purely through exposure is ehhhh, maybe for some people it's effective, but most people need that structure. Also the hearts situation they've pushed on everyone really hurts that idea of immersing people until they click with what's happening, because you're punished for the mistakes that are part of that learning process! I think having all the words visible (rather than making you come up with an answer from nothing) harms language development too, it's like training wheels that you end up relying on, and you struggle in situations where you don't have them
I've got experience learning multiple languages academically (including English) and 3+ years of teaching English both in person and online, in groups and one on one. With all that I can say that Duolingo is useful, but only as a supplement to something else. It doesn't have to be a teacher-led class, but you definitely need to work with a textbook for grammar, at least to some degree; and with a person who speaks the language for speaking and writing. Without that Duolingo is borderline useless, while with it it can be somewhat fruitful. You shouldn't expect a significant boost to your skills just because you're using duo, though. Gamification adds a false sense of progress and may lead to overconfidence in people who have made no progress in the studying department of the thing that is gamified, unfortunately.
Back when I was learning italian duolingo didn't have this streamlined structure, lessons were classified by subject and you could easily see this on the menu. It was great for coordinating with the grammar studies, as it provided alsosome exercises for it.
Now, guarda che coincidenza, I'm studying russian and duolingo fucking sucks! The declension cases are far apart from each other and it's hard to find them in this mess of a menu. If you're just going on a trip to somewhere, it works great like this, but if you actually want to learn a new language, the order that the lessons are displayed will conflict with whateve program you have going on the grammar side
I speak several languages, but I bounced off of Russian pretty hard. Between the extra cases like prepositional and locative, you also get to memorize perfective *and* imperfective verbs pairs. Fun! I love the sound of the language, but the grammar is a bear.
@@CantankerousDave I started with Russian as my native language so that made it a bit easier. If that any consolation, when learning English you have to memorise a whole lot of spellings the origins of which are very murky. "So basically the French scholars didn't like the way it looked, so they changed the spelling to fit their linguistic beauty standards" is a surprisingly frequent reason of quirky spellings. Although come to think of it, natives had to learn this mess it too.
I love how Producer Jon is now an absolutely integral part of things, its so nice to hear his voice off camera. He's like the DM or the Voice of Reason (sometimes).
I've got a two year Spanish streak and the owl still gets angry at me for forgetting basic things ;-;
I heard a lot about that site/app over the years, and it seems the most recommended. Has it helped you the most?
I am 210 days in and I still just guess it for aprende,aprendo,aprender
Because the owl never bothered to teach you any of the basics.
The owl is a git, but not as much as the other awful mascots. "Continue your streak. Or not. Whatever." Urgh.
@@DireeAnd then they disabled the forums which were the only way of actually getting useful information about grammar and whatnot.
As a teacher, I feel incredibly validated by this entire episode.
(Pity it's Maths as opposed to MFL.)
A good maths teacher can teach maths even to people with dyscalculia or little interest. They offer tools and tricks to circumnavigate everyday pitfalls in all kinds of situations, from shopping over large financial decisions to understanding why the statistics shown on TV are lying to you about an important topic. So you have every right to feel validated - mathematics are an exceedingly important skill!
just like a bad teacher can destroy ones interest in any subject. so my honest thanks and respect to any good teachers out there!
Actually, duolingo has an app for math that is much better than their language app. It was a great practice tool for a kid I was tutoring.
I do teach languages and felt all the didactic/language acquisition theory from uni creep into my brain and make me shudder when Ellen described duolingo's teaching methods
@@LiopleurodonFeroxYou could go the traditional Latin route, involving threat of death for writing the misconjugated “Romanes eunt domus”. (In college, my Japanese professor and German professor once sat down next to me while I was eating lunch in the student union and made me translate from one to the other. They liked to push me.)
My daughter tested out of Spanish, Italian, & Chinese in college thanks to Duolingo; however, she supplemented it with talking with people that know the language. It's leaps and bounds better than what most of the schools in the US do. Her teachers even highly encourage the use of Duolingo. Duolingo is part of a toolkit and can't be your only solution. The only true way to learn the language is to speak it with people regularly. You need to actually converse.
I think you're spot on about the problems with Duolingo, Ellen! As a linguist, whenever someone has asked me how to learn a new language, or whether Duolingo is any good, I always say that it's great at being supplemental, but not at being the primary engagement with a language you get. Duolingo is good at one thing: getting you to engage with your target language every day, and while that is a great thing, it's also not the only thing you need to learn a new language. However, that is literally Duolingo's ENTIRE goal, and their sole didactic aim is to keep you coming back. That means that if they have a choice between something that will make you learn the language more effectively but is boring and will cause people to stop using the app, and something that doesn't really teach you much but will ensure you come back tomorrow, they will pick the latter. This isn't entirely without merit - they are relying on studies that show that the #1 predictor of success for language learners is practicing daily. In my opinion, though, daily practice is a proxy for the actual thing that increases your likelihood of success, and that is self-motivation.
Anyway it sounds like Ellen has fallen afoul of one of Duolingo's biggest problems: it has an almost pathological fear of actually teaching you anything. For instance, it sounds like she's unaware that every unit of every language has a Guidebook associated with it, which is like a chunk out of a textbook, teaching you concepts and giving you examples. With a recent app update they made it much more prominent, but they still don't ever really TELL you about it. You can see it at 9:55 - it's that banner that says "Section 2: Explorer". It looks a bit different from that now, but that notebook icon on the right? If you tap that, it gives you an admittedly brief lesson. It will actually TEACH you in there, like giving you the conjugation tables for verbs, or explain quixotic things like which verbs are reflexive. It is easily the worst thing about Duolingo that they don't teach you more, so it's ridiculous that this vital feature is so easy to miss.
I’m sorry to tell you , but no one’s reading all that
6:49 Duolingo doesn't call it out, but on the unit/section headers is a button for "Guidebook" that will explain those rules that Ellen said are missing. The Unit 6 Guidebook for Italian has the conjugation rules.
The guidebooks used to have grammar rules and verb tables. Now Duolingo, in all their wisdom, have replaced these with simple lists about 6-8 phrases, with no explanation of the grammar. If you don't see this change yet, you will soon - it's been rolled out gradually to various users. It sucks.
@@chakraUK I suggest buying a grammar book or at least looking it up on e.g. Wikipedia.
@@lexmole Thank you for that sage advice which I never would have conceived of on my own accord. I'm so glad I have you to guide me.
Still doesn't change the fact that it used to be in Duolingo and now it's not, though.
We went to Italy for our honeymoon, and while we learned the words for please, thank you, sorry, excuse me, very well and such, we also learned how to ask if the Italian person we were speaking to spoke English, and the majority of people were very happy to speak English and actually thanked us for asking them. 😁👌 Such a beautiful country and lovely people.
Okay, I'm normally just a lurker, I don't comment on ANYTHING, but that last line, Ellen, absolutely broke me. I am still giggling.
And more generally, I have to say I love these kind of videos. I always think of Outside Xtra as 'adult gamer culture' and this was a key example. Love it and thank you
Lurkers of the world, unite
And next weekend they'll be doing a Pokemon magazine!
My Japanese streak is now 1366 days and I'd say I speak basic Japanese. However, I also get actual lessons and study outwith Duolingo. No chance I'd be saying that if it was just the app.
Funny thing is that Duolingo EXPLICITLY STATES that just using the app is not enough and even offers additional resources on learning languages through their blog posts. I'm not surprised that people who ignore that and only use the app never get good in a language. I am at 685 days of Italian in Duolingo, but I also write stuff down, do vocabulary cards, read Italian news and watch shows on Netflix (Rick and Morty is GREAT in Italian 😂). I'm not FLUENT, but I can understand and write a lot. Speaking's lacking though.
Yeah you need to do more than just use Duolingo to learn a language, Duolingo really just teaches you to be good at Duolingo. It's fine as a supplemental tool but if that's all you're doing you'll not make much progress.
@@SatyreIkon yes, we italians are blessed with a lot of fantastic dubbers!
@@jacopopiovesan3882 For real! I'm from Germany, so I'm somewhat spoiled when it comes to quality dubbing (I even worked in video game localization and did dubs myself for a few years, so I got to meet some real artists in that field), but the Italian dubs I heard so far are EASILY on the same level.
@@SatyreIkonooo! I'll check out Rick and Morty in Italian. I've just been watching Bluey in Italian because it's simple 😅
This is the real gaming journalism I want
As someone whose first language is a romance one (italian, spanish, french etc), learning english from romance seems significantly easier than romance from english. Specially when it comes to the gender of words, since every noun has a gender in romance languages.
English dropped almost all of the masculine / feminine endings and cases for verbs and the like. Balancing that is a lot of irregular rules and about a zillion vocabulary words in general use. So coming from romance to English you might trip over having so many different ways to say the same thing that are not 100 percent equivalent.
I've been doing Arabic for over 4 years now in Duolingo (including some patches where i was just repeating the same stuff), in fact i just finished the course. I would definitely agree that it doesn't do grammar well, tenses, genders etc. All remain a mystery. I think it really demonstrates the weakness of gamifying things which is that it makes you really good at playing the game not the thing itself. At this point im very good at Duolingo and not particularly good at Arabic
I like the plant. It really ties the room together.
My family has a plant, that is nearly 20 years old monstera - I cannot remember where we got it from- which I named "Chuck", like the plant from ManiacMansion.
In it's hayday Chuck was nearly three meters tall, but last winter my mom gave it a new hibernation spot where it nearly died and lot most of it's leaves and a bunch of it's stems/air-roots.
But it recovered miraculously, now a lot smaller, but none the less!
I liked this story, thanyou for sharing👍! It's so cool you named it and that it has been part of the family so long. Plants have amazing recovery powers indeed. I have a couple indoor plants that came back miraculously from nothing and now they totally brighten up the room!
The appeal of Duolingo for me anyway is that, even though real progress is super slow, I am making progress, and I don''t have the time, money, or capacity for stress for real lessons. Like, if i weren't using Duolingo, I wouldn't be doing french at all, because real lessons are stressful, and expensive, and self directed study is unsustainable long term. At the very least my french is getting slowly better over time, instead of regressing from lack of use.
When I was taking Spanish in high school and my teacher told us to DuoLingo to refresh our brains in between classes, but she said it wasn’t a substitute for a teacher. So Ellen’s comment about how it could work with a teacher is helpful.
Barry is my favorite cast member. They need more screen time!
As someone who only got a month into Italian before running out of patience, I applaud you on your one year Ellen! Keep going!
I roared with laughter at the end, "the owl can F**k off" :)
I've been learning Norwegian for almost 4 years with duolingo, it was much better before because there were actual written lessons explaining the grammar and comments where people would answer questions about the language, the Norwegian course is still good though, the courses vary in quality immensely. Og nå kan jeg snakke norsk, ikke mye, men jeg er fornøyd med det.
Wait, they removed the rule explanations and stuff? Huh
@@robertoazuaje9279 Yes. Yes they did. It sucks.
@@Deinareia I'm doing Spanish, I can still access the explanations and rules??
@@GriffinWolf I'm doing Spanish too. You can still see the forums where actuall people and native speakers would post the explanations? How? I want to still see them too.
@@Deinareia This thread is about the explanations, not the forums. I wish the forum would come back, but the "guidebook" with grammar explanations is definitely still there.
Oh man Barry is so chill and cool. Great addition to the team!
I'm almost at a year streak of German and English, and yeah- even though Duolingo has some short explanations for each chapter, it really helps to learn at least basic grammar somewhere else.
It works quite well as a tool to re-learn a language you've been taught in school, and a reminder to use it at least a little bit each day (that can make quite a difference)- but I think that treating Duolingo like a game kinda works against it:)
Either way, congratulations for sticking with it for a year (or "putting up with it"- whichever fits better)!
I got a minor in German over 10 years ago. I rarely used it after. This episode inspired me to download Duolingo to refresh myself. It's been fun adding to my vocabulary and stuff but I can't imagine starting from scratch.
@@digdude64 Yeah, I had German lessons in school for years, but aside from two lessons per week never really used it. Decade later I was surprised how much I can actually remember after a bit of a refresher:)
Starting a course about Ukrainian last month was a different experience- lessons about the alphabet are nicely done, but notes in Duolingo's "guidebook" are just a few translated conversations with no explanation of constructing sentences or declination. I imagine anyone to whom English is a native language would have a rough time with that course
Duo Lingo is ok for engaging with a language at a basic level, classes are good for learning fundamentals of a language, but I think they all lack the immersion of actually engaging in a language. Having friends you can practice with, going to the places that speak the language, or going to things like cultural exchanges are all great ways to progress
Dualingo is great, as part of a balanced diet. As a beginner, you’re not going to learn words by just „immersing“, this is just good old fashioned repetitive learning.
Then, once you have the basics down, you also need to compliment it with conversations, watching tv shows etc
100% agree. It’s great for extra credit and fun, but the fact that it can’t explain things really hurts learning. It’s more of a game disguised as a language-learning app.
If Ellen did go to Italy, it wouldn't surprise me if the taxi driver at the airport turned round and said "ciao-Ellen Rose? Mi piace outside xtra."
If you click the heart in the top corner, you can practice to earn more hearts, it earns you xp and you can't fail it, no cost to hearts etc. I feel like this might fix a few of your gripes here.
I've done 3 years of Spanish and bits of French and German before I've travelled and I agree with it being hard to learn for actually structuring your own thoughts and sentences, useful for politeness and a few basics though
Finally someone who pointed this out!
Duolingo helped me greatly learning Hangul (the Korean writing system) but everything Ellen said I agree and I went for a classic grammar book with accompanying CD next.
I might end up trying a teacher eventually, the goal is to travel to Korea and stumble with words a lot there.
That’s how I got better in English, Japanese and French: by eventually embarrassing myself a lot, testing the patience of people and just trying to talk said language.
That sounds like a great goal, hope you'll make it a reality!
I can't get past the "embarrassing myself" part, and still actively avoiding voice chats:D
That was my experience with learning Korean also. Duolingo was great for learning Hangul, but then I just had random words of vocabulary and no real idea how to put them together. The example sentences they used were also bizarre sometimes. "The baby likes fox milk" kind of bizarre.
It's good to use as a supplement to a class. My daughter has done 3 years of duo lingo alongside 2 years of spanish class, she started duo lingo one year before the class. Duo lingo gave her a good head start for the class, knowing a bunch of words but it was the class that got her to actually start to understand and speak spanish properly.
I thought duolingo will murder you if you dont learn the languages properly. Glad ellen is safe and sound
for now...
Spanish or vanish
So long as you keep the fires lit you'll be safe
365 days🔥
Not if you murder it first!
@@phantomknightencounterist Italian or be-gone-ing! Sorry.
I'll definitely miss Barry the Bamboo if he's gone. I'm already attached!
I always admired one of my uncles strategy when in France, given he spoke, essentially, a handful of words and phrases, the most useful of which was "My wife doesn't speak French" which, he said, directly appealed to Gallic chivalry... and got people to speak in English. Which rather annoyed my aunt who _did_ speak French and my uncle's habit deprived her of the opportunity to practice the language as often as she would like.
Welcome to the channel, Barry. I can't wait to see what kind of content you bring to the show.
It's gonna be microplastic in the air
In this episode of "Ellen's addiction to achievements"
To be clear, the conqueror challenges rule, duolingo...not so much
Had a streak of 1100 days (French, then added Spanish, then added Irish Garlic), paid for it, spent over 2 years in the Diamond League, and I agree. Even knowing the words I'd never feel comfortable trying to hold a conversation in any of the languages.
Ended the streak when I started teaching this year (math) due to being busy. Don't know if I'll go back.
(By the way, if you thought 375 was high, just wait to see the Diamond League, where top finishers frequently have >10K points, and where sometimes I've seen users with >4K points in a week relegated downwards...
I must have started at the exact same time as Ellen on the Japanese course and I feel the same way. At the beginning with basic sentences it was fine but then duo began to throw grammar rules at me without ever explaining them, it was also testing me on the sound and kanji of vocab without ever telling me the english translation. When they straight up deleted the forums that were actually helping me learn I lost all motivation. This video inspired me to give it up for good and try a different approach. ありがとうございます。
As a 1216-day streak holder, the Japanese course has been revised thrice since I started. Some of the translations have gotten _worse_ since then. One of the newer minigames translated the word 半 (meaning "half") as "thirty," which is flat-out wrong. Duolingo's course somehow associated it with "thirty" because it's used in the Japanese equivalent of the phrase "half past (time)"
I did a year in German on Super Duolingo and the leaderboards stressed me out so much. You can opt out of them by making your profile private. While it doesn’t diminish the pressure the app puts on you, it does help with the competitive aspect of it.
I tried every way I could find to learn Japanese for 20 years and couldn't get it. For about 2 months recently, I switched my phone to Japanese, and listened to bilingual podcasts where both languages were spoken, and lots of lessons. In those two months, I learned more than I had in the previous twenty years. I also recommend children's stories, and Discord language exchange servers. I'm still using Duolingo to learn some vocabulary, but that's all it's good for.
I love Duolingo, so I feel obliged to say you don't have to pay for hearts! If you click on the heart symbol you can choose practice mode to earn hearts. Also if you want to earn more xp you can do the special lessons which are hidden in a different tab. Also you can earn a lot of xp if you do a lesson in the morning and in the evening. If you do lessons in those hours you earn a double xp bonus for the next evening or morning which you can activate in the shop
Exactly what I do ^^ The post-6am/pm bonuses were intro'd relatively recently and I feel they're nice little incentives which were more effective than before they introduced them; doing double the amount you used to ^^ Some apps are very much 'CONTINUE YOUR DAILY LOGIN OR SUFFER', but Duo feels more like positive encouragement ^^
Yes! The practice mode is honestly kind of my fave and I bring it up to any one I know who uses Duolingo because it's amazing how many people aren't aware of it! It even still gives some XP along with refilling hearts. And it's a nice change of pace if you want to do a more casual "speed run" session where you try to answer as quickly and instinctively as possible, instead of puzzling answers out through logic to avoid losing hearts.
I've done Japanese for 1200 days.
Watching anime subbed is a better learning tool for the language.
Love how Ellen is like "I can't understand how this word is what it is" when the entire English language is "Well, we did this, but also this which means the same thing! Also it's wrong now, lol"
As the writer H. Beam Piper said "English is the result of Norman men-at-arms trying to make dates with Saxon barmaids in old Roman towns, and is no more legitimate than any of the other offspring of such encounters"
I used to think this was an English only problem. It's not.
I once worked with a guy who immigrated from Cuba. He learned Italian and then learned English, and he said he recommended that for going from Spanish to a English and vice-versa.
According to him, Italian is similar enough to both languages to make it easier to learn & when you do it’s easier to move to the other language ftom there.
I've got a 2360 day streak and spent over 6 years learning German. I still wouldn't say I'm fluent, but for 5-15 minutes a day, I'm happy with what I've learnt. I know a lot of people are down on Duolingo as a learning method, but the way I look at is it's much better than nothing. And most other methods (books, tapes, Rosetta Stone, Pimsleaur) aren't really any better. Only live classes with a native speaker are really better. My main wish for Duolingo is that it would add a feature to tell you *why* your answer is wrong and also why the correct answer is correct. Because as Ellen says Duolingo doesn't make any deliberate attempt to team you the 'rules' of the language (it has help pages, but that's worse than a book) and German has a *lot* of grammar rules with lots of exceptions that are difficult to remember just from reading them in a book (or the help page of an app).
Also, on the discussion of lives and leader boards, etc. You definitely need to get the paid subscription to enjoy Duolingo. Sucks, but yeah.
Luke: "You can't beat a human teacher, can you?" was finished in my head with "I've tried, and it's never helped my grades"
Anche io sto usando Duolingo, ho fatto tutto il corso di cinese ma serviva più come sussidio mentre facevo lezioni vere e proprie con un insegnante. Adesso faccio spagnolo e ho una streak di oltre 800! Penso che per imparare e mantenere attivo il vocabolario possa servire abbastanza bene ma è sempre meglio avere anche un insegnante vero.
Non portate via Barry!
Agree 100%! When I had a Spanish streak, I remember a lot of the times where I had to press the words in order to translate into English, I'd just base it off of what sentence would make sense in English rather than what the Spanish actually was. It's great for vocab you might not get otherwise but it didn't/hasn't done much for my comprehension as a whole.
not sure why there can't be a plastic tree in the white void. all hail Barry the plant
I've been working toward 100% all the achievements within duolinogo. Much more daunting undertaking then it sounds. But I'm most of the way there. I've completed the hardest achievements (for 365 days streak, 30000 total xp, #1 ranked in diamond league) and just have to finish through a couple more grindy achievements. Pretty soon I'll have finished Duolingo, though.
...this was the end goal, right?....
Did you learn Italian? If yes, how is it? Can you talk in Italian now? Listen to Italian songs while understanding them? How often did you use it and why is it that everyone speaks bad about it?
I just started it and was very motivated to learn Italian with Duolingo but this kinda demotivates me.
Would be glad if you could answer! :)
@@HealedInChrist thanks for your reply! I respect your initiative to seek out a secondary opinion, instead of trusting the first (and more popular) individual you heard from.
To answer your questions;
I can't personally attest to learning Italian via Duolingo, as I have been learning French for the better part of the last three years (I just got my 912 day duolingo streak). However, Italian is categorically within the same family as French. So, I imagine that the duolingo courses can't be too drastically different in their structure.
I've also taken various language classes in school from the elementary - collegiate levels; covering Spanish and some Portuguese. I can also compare my experiences between professionally instructed language classes and duolingo.
As far as the effectiveness of learning a language through Duolingo; you get out of it what you put it. But this is exactly how I feel about most resources that can be utilized for language learning. I feel that I've learned an incredible amount of my desired language, considering the amount of time I've personally invested. I also think its easily possible for a different individual to progress much further within their desired language course in the same time period, as I frequently had trouble progressing my lessons due to ongoing issues with my mental health. As an alternative; I opt to practice previously completed lessons in order to strengthen my skills, and because it feels less mentally taxing to review as opposed to learning something new.
I can't speak fluent French yet, but I feel like I will be able to someday if I continue learning through duolingo. And as mentioned previously; there is a possibility i could be more fluent in the language at this point if I spent more time on new lessons. However, I can speak and understand most of the basic phrases that would be needed to communicate with someone in French and extract or relay basic information. I feel with slightly more practice that I would feel comfortable traveling to a French speaking region, and feel confident I would be able to navigate all the basic conversation necessary to order food, ask for directions, check into a hotel, etc. I might not flourish in a French speaking region, but I could likely survive.
I've noticed that I can usually pick up on French phrases being spoken in English language films/tv shows. They are often simple phrases, because the programs I'm watching aren't typically natively French and instead just have some French speaking characters. Regardless, I'm still able to quickly pick up on the fact that someone is speaking French and more often than not I can translate the rough idea of what's being said; without the need for subtitles or an outside translation source.
I've frequently changed my language in video games to French if I've been playing the same game a lot. I've changed the spoken dialogue to be French a few times, to hear some new voice acting and voice lines I haven't already heard a million times before. I've even changed the actual in game text/menus to be French in one game I enjoy speedrunning repeatedly.
I haven't listened to much French music yet, but I also haven't been expanding my musical horizons much lately. I've heard that French Hip-Hop is very high quality, as far as rap goes, so I've been meaning to try out some more French rap artists.
I have intent to purchase a French language version of my favorite graphic novel, and intend to be able to read through it without much issue within the near future. It helps that I have a reference point from reading the book in English originally, however. Regardless, duolingo has lessons specifically focused on learning to read stories; so learning to read in your desired language should be very much possible through Duolingo .
Lastly, I have no idea why people speak poorly of duolingo. I wasn't even aware it had that stigma; as my friends and I have used it without issue for years without ever spending any money on it. Compared to the actual language classes I took through my schooling, I feel I've learned significantly more from Duolingo. Its possible that the format of Duolingo just works better for me, and that it won't necessarily work well for everyone. But after years of studying Spanish in school, including 2 semesters in college, I can't speak it or understand anything from this language. I got an A in both of my college languages classes, as well. However, after my time with duolingo I feel I have actually learned some lasting language skills and have a desire to continue learning the French language until it is second nature to me.
I hope this was able to answer some of your questions, and possibly help inspire you to give duolingo (or atleast language learning in general) another try. I'm still so disappointed that Ellen said all these negative, and mostly untrue, statements regarding duolingo. Ever since this video released I haven't been able to enjoy any video that includes Ellen. I used to watch all oxbox+xtra content, but now actively avoid videos featuring Ellen because her comments effected my opinion of her so heavily.
Whether you try using duolingo again or not; I hope you're able to have a lovely rest of your day and that life treats you well moving forward!
That overly formal bent is the exact experience I've had learning Hungarian with Duolingo. It wants me to bid farewell with "Viszontlátásra" or Viszlát", but I spent enough time in Budapest speaking to actual Hungarians to know how weird it would be to use those in most settings.
Duolingo is only useful in concert with other learning sources.
Duolingo doesn't really work well with the finer points of the Hungarian language. 😅 Levels of formality is one of those.
In my head canon the plant's name ended up as Colin-Barry and he can never not be in the frame anymore ...... I bet there is also a complex and well thought-out backstory for Colin-Barry that Luke and Ellen can't wait to tell us about.... 😆
For some odd reasons, I just combine them and make Colinbury, which sounds more like what would happen if Colin Furze founds his own town.
@@notthatcreativewithnames wait ... do you mean Colin Firth? 🤔😜
Years ago I took Japanese at uni. It's been over a decade and I wanted to refresh my skills. What they teach for Japanese and what I remember my teachers teaching are vastly different. There's a Japanese phrase that you say when meeting people that is literally "Please be kind to me." Duolingo has it as "Nice to meet you." Bit different there. Like Ellen said: learn from a teacher when at all possible. Duolingo is a helpful study aid, but it needs a lot more input and help before being able to fully teach a language.
Yoroshiku can be used a hundred different ways - Nice to meet you, happy to be here, I look forward to doing business with you, thanks for having me, please do this thing for me, etc. It’s all about context.
I have a more than two year streak on Japanese because I felt myself losing bits of it from my university Japanese and wanting to improve.
It's really just vocabulary help. If that were all, that would be fine. However, not only does it present some things in ways that while not breaking any 'hard and fast' rules, are said in ways that one just wouldn't use. It makes differentiations that don't exist in the language ('sensei' can mean both 'teacher' and 'doctor' but not to the bird!).
Most frustratingly, it speaks things out with non-native accents! That might help when learning with other non-native speakers but the point is to learn the native accents! I don't want my ear, and thus my own voice, to be tuned to the accent of a person from India who learned Japanese, I want to sound more like native speakers!
COMPLETELY agree with this video. I downloaded Duolingo to dust off my GCSE French and it was absolutely useless because it was essentially logic puzzles for how a sentence should go and it being multiple choice a lot of the time I felt I never had to remember the right word but just figure out what the right one is. Like if you asked me cold what the french word for IDK the station was I wouldn't be able to tell you but I could look at the list and go "well it's not chat, chien or monsieur is it"
I then decided to give it another go on a language I knew nothing about and tried Arabic, and again the lives thing made it useless because it would show you random letters of the alphabet and then get mad at you were confused about how the alphabet worked
You can just do Practice to get hearts back. No waiting or Super needed. Surprised so few people know about this.
I've never tried Duolingo but I have taken 5 years of German and I will definitely say don't be too surprised about not getting syntax and proper sentence structure down pat in a year. A great way to think of it is "You've been learning this language for a year, you are essentially a one year old for a native speaker." Also I completely agree with Luke regarding these types of learning experiences being so much better in person though.
I started learning Spanish using Duo Lingo over the last two weeks whilst on holiday and I found it really good! The actual sentences it gets you to practice aren't very helpful, but getting to know what basic things are ("I would like" or "Where is the...?" for example) is really helpful 😊 I enjoy the game aspect of DL but I'm under no illusion it will teach me a full language 😂 I've been able to have conversations in Spanish using what I have learned though🎉
Courses on Duolingo vary greatly in quality.
I started out with Indonesian (because it's exotic and relatively easy to learn), but the course never explained anything - it just showed you words and phrases and told you what they meant. I decided that my time would be better spent refreshing the French and German that I did at school REDACTED years ago (they had been explained to me, even if it was a long time ago). Imagine my surprise when every lesson had a "Tips" section outlining the grammar and vocabulary it introduced.
Hey, no fair! I've got a 50 day Duolingo streak in Russian and I'm perfectly able to communicate!
Well, it's mostly the 50 day streak. And maybe having studied it for several years, traveling to Russia for language courses, doing language tandems, and exhausting pretty much every other language app/service out there, so Duolingo is my last resort to keep practicing.
But it's mostly the 50 days, I swear!
I have been over 1000xp as ftp... but I also just reset my progress in Hebrew because I got quite far in the exploratory level and then felt like I had missed some crucial rules in constructing past tense. So I'm reviewing in the rookie level of the course and it's much easier to get perfects. I also make it a goal to to either complete a whole circle or half of one every day that I practice (like Ellen, I make liberal use of streak freezes).
I also have the unfair advantage of already being multilingual 😅 I learned German at uni and it gave me a solid background in how to learn a language. Speaking with friends or teachers is the most helpful way to get real experience, and adding the structure of the grammatical rules around the vocabulary you're learning from Duo is the second most helpful. Ultimately, Duolingo is a not-very-fun game and better for reviewing content you know and learning vocabulary than trying to learn the language itself from scratch
Now I'm hoping Ellen does a TikTok next time shes in Italy where she says "Im sorry I'm English" and walks into the sea 😂
The moment Duolingo added the life system, it became expressly clear to me that their goal was not to help people learn languages, but to make people think they were learning a language while extracting as much money from them as possible.
The lives are good because you can practice to earn more hearts when you run out. Sometimes, you're not ready to move up to the next level
Duolingo was great for me a few years back - I did a Spanish GCSE but this got me way further in way less time. But there's a point where it stopped being useful, except for kinda drilling various grammar things. After that, doing stuff like watching videos or listening to podcasts in Spanish, or reading actual Spanish books or websites, and using a dictionary to check stuff - that was way more useful because it's actual communication! (Missing the speaking/writing side but y'know)
Things were better then though - the actual explanation content was more visible (a lot of people don't even know it's there) and you could also post on the discussions for each question, which was a gold mine for info about what's going on here and what grammar is in use and why not this instead etc. They locked those and I heard some people can't even read what's there anymore? The hearts thing was the last straw for me, just really disappointing for a project that claimed free education was important to them, locking people out ain't it
You can do exercises to earn back hearts. You can keep going indefinitely if you do so, no need to wait or purchase Super.
@@Snailirific yeah you can, but it's basically forcing you to do something else, instead of the learning you actually want to do. And ime "practice" ends up being basic stuff from way earlier in the tree that you really don't need to spend time on. If I'm getting stuff wrong, then that's what I need to practice, not "X eats apples" over and over, y'know? It wastes your time and feels like punishment you're gonna want to skip (and that's the incentive to pay up)
@@cactustactics I see it as a refresher and don't mind doing it.
I did duolingo alongside Danish classes for years and founf it so unhelpful - it's like it drills you to translate back into English and then out into the language again which isn't how conversing works, so it's just unhelpful.anyway i have strong feelings about the owl app and i'm pleased someone else is saying it too
Next to each unit title, there is an icon of a booklet. If you click it, you will get the explanation how to sausage is made in relation to each unit's topic.
All this time we have been worried about Ellen having an abusive bf, and she was just using duolingo...
Thank you from my heart for this video.
I'm playing duolingo for years and all these things you said is so true. (my first problem was the "ok, I've learned three ways for good bye, but when do I have to use them? Which one I use in a shop? or a restaurant?" And duolingo does not teach this)
It is a good way to start learning a language, but you have to use other things (for example a real course with a real teacher) if you really want to learn it.
And onde more thing:
you can practice for more lives in duolingo (which is good, because in these practices you cannot lose a heart and still get gems)
Congrats, Ellen! Keep it up! I have a 1651 day streak and my Spanish still sucks :) I'll mention, as you get further through a course, you get more and more diverse lesson types. It was at least 3 years before I started really getting the hang of the grammar.
Ellen, you do know that there's a "tips" section on each lesson that explains the rules, right?? Cause you keep saying it's a guessing game, but you are supposed to do the reading...
If we don't see Barry in the next episode I will feel Bamboozled!
I am 1100 days in the Japanese language course on Duolingo (more for a refresher, cuz I did study it a lifetime ago) and for lost lives, I go for the "do a separate lesson to recover your hearts"
Duolingo Plus has been worth it. Just for more streak freezes. But I'll say my spouse did German for a year (he's almost to three years straight now) and was able to go on a business trip. I've done Spanish for over a year and had some good results (but my husband is also around to tell me what's Castilian Spanish vs. what people actually say 😅
End parenthesis.
I had a similar experience with Duolingo a few years ago. I was doing French and at first it was great, because it was dredging up memories of French classes from when I was a kid, but as soon as I went beyond that level it became impossible because it wasn't really teaching me anything and didn't really offer a way to learn. Meanwhile I've been inadvertantly teaching myself Latin just by having to copy things out on a Facebook page I run.
Furthering this dystopic nightmare of an app, when premium plans were introduced, random accounts were flagged for this 'new experience' of penalties and punishments for being a lowly scrub wanting free education... Where countless other accounts faced no such restrictions. I had two years of some really cool languages under my belt, was considering starting real studies in, and Duolingo killed it for me with its randomly assigned punishments on my account. Bye bye diamond League, I don't miss your arbitrary competitions for the top spot in one of 300 diamond leagues, pretending I'm #1 out of all players to bait me onto your ad force-feeding platform. 🎉
Duolingo kinda presents languages like the infamous 'draw the rest of the damn (duolingo) owl' meme presents drawing an owl.
Hey Ellen, I generally agree with most of your issues with Duolingo, I just hit my 3 year streak. One thing I'll point out if you did want to stick with it. If you use the website rather than the app (which I used to do at work during my downtime) there are no lives, so you can just go for as long as you want. I learned a lot more doing that, than I have exclusively in the app.
The Owl is coming for you just for making this video
I love Barry, he's the best cast member
Totally agree on the whole 'guess why' on Duolingo. I decided I wanted to try to learn French & am currently @ 60 days. I started to get my footing with Le & La but then they go and introduce L' to me with no explanation so now I'm like 'What?'. Same with Vas / Va / Vais. On top of that the speaking sections don't seem that helpful either. I mimic the sentence & it'll say 'wrong' but I won't be able to understand what's wrong with how I've said it. There have also been times when I've botched the sentence, like got tongue tied while speaking it botched. And it'll give me a 'perfect'.
I'm doing japanese in Duolingo (super version) every morning during my train ride to work. Duolingo makes it easy to integrate it into my daily life, but I fully agree, if I wanted to be serious about learning japanese, I definitely need a teacher. There is so much context, grammar, feedback etc. Duolingo just can't provide, you need an actual human for that.
Yes Ellen, exactly. The owl can f**k off. I have a 500+ day streak learning Polish, but my proficiency in Polish (minimal though it is) is based largely on the fact that I have a Polish wife and have been visiting the country for almost 10 years (and I still struggle with huge numbers of basic things). Ellen made a lot of good points about Duolingo, how it focuses on 'streaks' and 'leagues' and other things that don't effing matter when you're trying to build proficiency in a language. It's useful, but it should not be the crux of how you learn a language, just an ancillary way to add some extra practice between whatever 'proper' lessons/studying you're doing.
Also, hi Barry, welcome to the team!
Love doing Duolingo! Right now Portuguese (I've been going to Portugal all my life and this year decided to try Duolingo, 133 days in) Spanish, Italian, France, German. When I started it was like, Japanese, Chinese, Norse, Greek, Latin, Swedish, High Valyrian, Klingon, Russian, Polish, Irish... but I soon diminished it to the first five...
“I’m sorry i’m English” 😂
When I was in middle school band, I actually played "When the Saints Go Marching In" on trumpet in class for a warmup and got an ovation for it.
Great video. I love it when you're just geeking out about something you like or hate. Still want that documentary about the Ice Troll , though. I would watch that every morning to start my day.
I just watched a 20 minute video on Duolingo at 4:30 in the morning and enjoyed it. I'm honestly just concerned that I'm not concerned...
I loved Barry in this video, but I appreciate that Outside Xtra is a two-person format; so I guess this is Luke’s last video?
Well we don't need two tall thin guys and only one of them has lovely plastic leaves so....
Enjoyed the vid, and passed it on to a handful of friends who have been trying to learn Italian via DuoLingo!
Had a long streak in German for awhile and I liked old Duolingo better. They used to have sentence structure lessons and you could pick from different lessons in a tree. Now it's all linear and themed by vocab with the structure relegated to a little button that gives you a couple of hints.
Just got back from Germany not long ago and I realized that the 4 years I did in high school stuck in my head and helped way more than my Duolingo content that seems to have evaporated from my brain.
Show of the weekend is hands down my fave OX thing. 😍
I've tried Duolingo for a few different languages as well and the vocabulary focus was something I noticed immediately. I'm pretty decent at learning languages, but I prefer a grammar focus. I took Classical Latin for four years in undergrad and then used it for another 2 years in relation to my Linguistics MA. Latin tends to be taught with heavy grammar focus, same for Ancient Greek. I've also taken Japanese both in undergrad and during my MA, and once again it had a heavier grammar focus. It worked perfectly for me. I ran into issues with Duolingo and never stuck with it for long because it didn't let me focus on grammar and I never felt like I was actually learning the language. I just knew random words and that won't help me properly communicate with someone in their own language.
I've only ever used the desktop site and that was years ago now, so I have no idea if it functions like the app, but the currencies and such do make it into more of a game than an actual tool for learning a language. Just give me the physical textbooks and I'll teach myself the language. I taught myself the Japanese 201 material over about 3 weeks in grad school because I'd tested into 202 and I hadn't actually learned the 201 material (I just knew enough to know what not to write or whatever). It was easy enough to teach myself a semester's worth of Japanese, but I know that people all learn differently and learning a language is very difficult.
As a native portuguese speaker who understands english I believe I understand Ellen's problem with the composition, after all the verb changes slightly depending on the degree of the subject so does the determiner depending on the gender of it. When learning our language we are told "when in doubt speak it and see what makes sense" so yeah... Could be hard for non latin derivatives
I've been on Japanese for nearly 600 days coming from an English and Spanish background. I still really only pick up a few words here or there, but practicing kanji is a good easy way to extend my streak without any hearts.
You can also just do Practice to get hearts back. No waiting or Super needed. Surprised so few people know about this.
I've been learning Spanish through Duolingo, and recently hit a 365-day streak. I'd still struggle to start a conversation in Spanish, though my reading comprehension is /fine/. I'll be looking at proper language lessons at some point, as after all this time I need to make real progress.
FWIW I’m a language teacher. Languages are hard if you aren’t actually communicating with real people. Our brains are wired to analyze and produce language based off our interactions with others. Apps like Duolingo are best viewed as ways to practice vocabulary.
We still have a spot on our Family Duolingo plan if you want it Ellen 😅
I totally agree with a lot of this. There are little articles at the beginning of each unit that better explain some of the grammar rules in the lesson but it isn’t enough. I still get confused in my German lessons all the time about sentence structure. 500 days strong though. You best believe I can say “For the bear a coffee and for me a milk please” in German
The plant is now as important as Jon. You can't get rid of it anymore
Ah, the validation of my feelings about the Owl App. I thought for ages I was just dumb for not understanding the grammar of the languages I was learning, but it really does just not teach you the grammar, and expect you to know it, and then punishes you when you make a grammatical error.
It also loves to incessantly insist that a specific word is the word for whatever, then switch it up without teaching you the synonym. It'll say 'this is the word for walk' for weeks, and then randomly get you to translate the sentence 'Bob took a stroll to the shop', and punish you for thinking stroll and walk are the same.
...and breathe
I’m deaf and have zero gift for languages. For some reason I decided that the best time for me to try and learn German was while I was heavily medicated and just wanted to sleep… it didn’t go amazingly.
I've been using Duolingo for a couple of years now, and Ellen's points here describe all of the issues I've faced using it. It's not feeling as effective as when I was learning languages in school