"encore stages should be fun, it's to celebrate their win". the thing is they are neither singing decently nor having fun, they look nervous and uncomfortable as hell.
Imagine having to be scared because you just won an award... it's so sad what the industry has become. And I'm not blaming the idols for this, it's a problem with the companies. If all companies gave their idols as much vocal training as SM does (or at least used to do) they would be more than capable to give fun encores, especially since they're not even expected to perform the choreo.
@@ike7484no one (especially not the companies) are forbidding idols from taking vocal lessons though. Many great vocalists have shared that they're taking lessons outside of their companies because they want to improve. All of these idols are mad rich and spend thousands every month on luxury brands. It could be harsh to say but the mediocrity comes from them
@@loupiote2315 It is true that some idols take vocal lessons on their own initiative, but I disagree with the idea that it should be a necessity left to them. The companies are the ones making big bucks in this industry, for their levels of fame most idols earn surprisingly little and have very little free time. You can also rest assured that if you see an idol flashing a luxury bag with the brand name plastered all over it they did not spend their own money on it, but are most likely getting paid (or rather their management is) to promote it. Of course for an independet artist or someone looking to get signed in the first place it is another thing, then I would agree it is fully their responsibility to take vocal lessons.
@@priyabarlota5137 The mindset of HYBE is that when you come to the company, you're already expected to be GREAT. They think that you shouldn't need vocal lessons if you get into HYBE (at least from my observations). Thus, the lack of training in singing.
@@iloveyouiwantyouseokmattchu that sounds like a very arrogant mindset tbh. like, sm has kind of that mindset as well, but they at least have good vocal coaches under them, or at the very least idols who are talented enough singers to teach the basics to other trainees. dunno if i can say the same about hybe.
EXO's Xiumin said it best "To be honest, dancing isn’t that important. Singing is the most important. If you can’t sing well, no matter how good you are at dancing, you won’t look talented.”
Unless you are Momo. And even then Edit: "Even then" means that even her insane dancing is not enough to save her from people saying she has no talent. It's true, she can't sing. Her hope lies in rap and even then it's not all that
@@Chuckles_The_Echidna she used to be kinda decent and maybe kinda good in sixteen era but right now she cannot sing, and maybe she is a good dancer but yet she's not talented, she is just that, a dancer.
Then he is the wrong industry….he should become a soloist. Also if singing is most important in kpop, then Mamamoo should be the top girl group and DREAMCATCHER or NMixx or StayC would be top 4th Gen gg.
@@inquisitvem6723 he’s not in the wrong industry at all, there is a place for vocals in kpop and there always has been. There have been and still are incredible vocal groups who not only sing live but are able to go above and beyond what normal pop singers can do to deliver some really technically difficult stuff. People pretending good vocalists don’t belong in this genre are enabling mediocrity to prevail and not allowing the music to reach its full potential. And while vocal heavy groups are not necessarily the most popular groups out there, because marketing and music are what make the difference, we always see the popular groups who have bad live vocals or encores get dragged through the mud and called untalented, like Sserafim, like Jimin, like Twice. Xiumin was absolutely right, he was mentoring trainees on what they should focus on and his advice was completely sound.
@@_dont_mind_me what he is wrong assuming that vocals is the most important thing in kpop. I do think vocals is important, but that’s not priority in this industry and we can see it evident over the years. Sure some groups can sing, but that’s not few far in between. If dancing isn’t important, I can guarantee that kpop wouldn’t even be noticed. Why would I watch kpop when I can just go listen to Kelly clarkson, Jessie J, Ariana Grande, etc. The music, visuals, outfits, and dancing is the attraction to kpop. Sure I would like to see more groups that can do it all, but companies are in need to make $, thus pushing groups to debut fast .
@@nylawalker1629 exactly, just like I have no issue with some idols lipsynching or going out of tune because I know from evidence that they can sing well. Except Yunjin n Eunchae, none of them has proven they can do even the bare minimum vocally.
@@yullovelevolluy Going out of tune I understand but not lip syncing. I can be fine with a loud backtrack, but not lip sync. At least with a loud backtrack, I know that they're at least putting in the effort to do their job, but lip sync I have a problem with. You become a glorified dance crew at that point.
Baekhyun, one of the main vocalists of EXO still goes to vocal lessons. He talked about it in bubble days ago (sometimes he takes vocal lessons past midnight). Despite his busy schedule he makes time for it so I don't know what's the excuse of other idols for not making an effort to improve their vocal 😐
Woow.... That's called dedication. If an idol is actually dedicated to improve they will manage their things on their own whether their company will care or not.
I’m having a Deja vu, cuz I saw the same comment months ago… it’s just weird to see it again. it all comes down to their labels. Hybe doesn’t really have good vocalists, even as a parent company, it seems like every group under that label is hard focused on dancing. I’ve heard that only jungkook, jiwon, chaewon and yunjin have actual decent vocals… but rly? Only 4 individuals?? None of them are even close to someone like Wendy so that says a lot
Not every idol needs to have the vocal abilities of Lily, Haewon, or Wendy. It's not necessary. However, failing to perform one's own songs properly on the live stage is deceitful. More importantly, the blame should go to the company behind, not to each member.
Yeah, but we can't forget that some idols have some sort of agency. If Yunjin can write and release her own songs the idols can seek vocal lessons on their own. They have the money
@@MoMotaroDaisuke that's something i believe as well. idols like baekhyun for example have said they've looked for vocal coaches, and this was a little before he even had the seniority he has now. also, if sakura can do crochet in between schedules, which is a notoriously time-consuming hobby, im sure she can squeeze a vocal lesson once or twice a week.
Personally I don't care if Idols aren't all Sohyang level of vocalists, they don't have to be to sound decent. Especially when you factor in the choreography. But the least they can do is somewhat stay on pitch when just standing there, that's really not too much to ask.
@@user23q0 they're not terrible but not amazing either, Itzy is not a vocal group, is a dance group but all of them are kinda stable and her encores are not that bad compare to others.
@@user23q0 basically all the members can sing their own parts comfortably, even if they aren't main vocal material. which works for them since they're a very performance focused group and they're very commited to sing live.
4:35 OMG THANK YOU! I’ve seen so many people saying “encores are supposed to be fun, don’t take it so seriously” but they don’t get that it’s gonna be more fun for the audience if they sound good and look confident!!
Encore stages aren’t supposed to catastrophically suck. I’ve had to argue with so many hybe stans on this issue and it just feels nice to be validated.
Plus le sserafim is damn near a 2yr old group and have struggled since debut to carry basic notes. All their encores go viral for bad reasons and atp the entire group feels like a scam.
I think the bare minimum for a music group should be decent vocals... a "dance based group" just makes me roll my eyes because if thats what companies or fans want to focus on them maybe they should just make or support a dance troupe. So many groups/idols have worked to improve themselves over time, if anything a group SHOULD only get better and better the further into their career they are. It's honestly just dissapointing as a fan
Stans are kidding themselves. People don't buy albums because they like their dance. Dance groups doesn't have this large fanbases. If idols don't have the basic requirements of a music group, they shouldn't have the privileges.
In a world of k-pop where the editing, overproduction, and excessive use of autotune even in "live stages" just to make everything sound perfect - I know encore is suppose to be time for idols to enjoy their win but yes, encore stages is a good way to know if what you are praising is actually true. Imagine praising something that turned out to be fake stable vocals. "He/she sounds so heavenly", "He/she is an all-rounder", "He/She eating CD's for breakfast". Then you hear their encore and everything goes down the drain.
Its crazy how Kpop fans immediately make up excuses for their favorite idols' bad encore. "Their make was broken" "they couldnt hear themselves". Howre these problems fixed with other idols? How come groups like NMIXX or MMM do such a phenomenal job each time? Of course this isnt targeted. I dont want to hate on LSFM. Theyve improved since Unforgiven and i applaud them for taking criticism and bettering themselves even tho theyre still lacking. I think the girls are genuinly hardworking but I want their vocals to get even better in the next comeback.
@@strangeclouds7 maybe I am lol. I wanted to show some level of acknowledgement as their choreo is perfected to the brim, that definitely takes a lot of hardwork. Their vocals have gotten more not off key tho they're still lacking, but either way, do you want me to edit my comment because I agree with you?
I don’t expect the new idols to be top vocals, but being able to sing a little bit without straining, going out of tune and breath as the least I ask them since they are also “singers”. But currently they are working harder and harder to became brand embassador, their main job right now is fashion 😂
Most kpop idols are not even proficient at singing. Even when we look back to 2nd & 3rd gens. But the 4th & currently 5th gens are worse in comparison. At least we got Taeyeon, Hyolyn, Luna, Eunji, Yuju & Wendy as the benchmarks for their respective generations. Now, not as many.
@@mohamadfirdausbinmat2577 but as you said, in the past, yuri/sooyoung/victoria were not lead vocal material, but could at least sing their part without feeling nervous
@@robertalys8280I don't listen to Le Sserafim for their live vocals necessarily. I like their style, music, and uniqueness. Something different that has been lacking in the industry for a few years now. I'm sick of Itzy not trying to do different things. I'm sick of the new stuff all these top-level groups have been putting out. and I'm already sick fo 5th gen gg's and we haven't even really seen them in action yet. All I know is I will be forever binging Dreamcatcher and Red Velvet.
Musical artists not being capable of singing their own songs is a pet peeve of mine... No matter where they come from, Kpop or Western pop of any other kind of music, they SHOULD sound better than this. Because imo, their primary field IS indeed music. They wouldn't have to dance/perform if there wasn't any freakin music, so they should be able to sing/rap/play whatever music they put out to sell. It's, like you said, not about being the new Ailee or Whitney Houston, but about being able to freaking play in the right key with the right rythm and a little bit of skill the music you're trying to make us buy. It's also not about the money in the first place, but cmon you cannot sell something you cannot sing. That's why i was never a big fan of Britney Spears or Jennifer Lopez.
100% true This is the minimum someone should expect from people who are singers. Another example is Lisas Solo stages. Till this day I don't get it why she is not able to fully sing her own solo songs. That is literally the minimum fans expect.
Britney Spears isn't as bad as what people perceive her to be. She got many bad moments but when it's good it's quite good tbh. Jennifer Lopez isn't as bad either but people seem to not want to look up those decent moments of hers.
@@jaegabyeonhae that one too but there was an unforgiven one where eunchae sounded worse than she did in the viral one and sakura sounded the same yet they said it was the good one
If they were good enough in other encores, there's no reason for the fans to say that. A good group won't be questioned just bc they perform bad once, and vice versa.
lets be fr, le sserafilm are improving, but their vocals are still unforgiven LOL. easy has an "easy" vocal range and they're still struggling. i just know the fearnots are gonna come after me for this 💀💀
Honestly I think they've gotten worse. Their fearless encore sounded pretty good and stable but their recent encores are very shaky. It honestly just seems strange that they've regressed that much in just 2 years. Even Yunjin, classically trained vocalist who is easily the best singer in the group, sounded very shaky
@@texhnlyze6892Someone can be talented in something other than vocals. Vocal coaches can actually do a lot, however, what is needed is basic vocal knowledge.
@@starsxspace nah! With so much vocal backlash, instead of bringing good vocal coaches to their artist, they buy already good vocalist ( SM share) then Whenever someone say, Hybe is not all rounder, they sucks in vocal, Hybe stans will say, gurl we have Taeyeon, Changmin, ChenBeakSoo( oops they left SM) ".
one thing that i hate about kpop nowadays is that people focus more on the hardcore choreo. kpop stans now keep saying stupid things like if there are some people calling out their faves that "they can't sing", their fans be like "at least my faves is doing hardcore movements, unlike your faves who can't dance". just because some groups doesn't have hardcore choreo, that doesn't mean they can't dance 💀. like b1tch LOOK AT the 2nd gen and 3rd gen idols, their choreo maybe easier compared to idols nowadays but they sing live. and please don't bring the hardcore choreo as your excuse cause we got nmixx, itzy, and gfriend who can sing live while doing crazy ass choreo
if their choreo is too hard for them to be able to properly sing, then make the choreo less exhausted and sing live. If I was a company I would consider the abilities of the members. If the members can sing live while doing really hard choreo then good. They can still make iconic choreos but easier like blackpink dududu or twice TT.
@@vantefly EXACTLY. make it more simple if the choreo is too hard for them to sing live. And YES, you can make a iconic dance moves and still make it simple cause that is what most 2nd gen and 3rd gen idols did. No need to do a freaking acrobat for every freaking song. If the idols able to do it like nmixx then it's fine, but if it's not then DON'T do it. Companies only setting up these idols 💀
I’ve felt frustrated by fans who try to brush bad encore stages under the carpet. You are doing your favorite idols a disservice. Even if many fans don’t care about live singing, as someone who used to perform live, I cannot imagine the feeling of knowing you’re about to sing terribly in front of millions, no wonder some idols look so afraid in encores! I was rarely overly nervous when I was preforming, not because I’m Celine Dion, definitely not! It was because I felt prepared and that is what let me actually have fun and feel happy on stage. And you know maybe some idols don’t care but I imagine most wish for their fans to have confidence in them and for people to at least like their singing. Like if they have other talents/skills that they’re more focused on then sure, they don’t need to be the best at vocals, but most artists wouldn’t want people listening to their songs or stages being distracted by bad vocals!
I think there’s no excuses for sounding this bad on your own songs. It’s one thing for doing a cover, it’s whole PROBLEM when you can’t sing your own songs as you did in studio. I think their company uses autotune live in their recordings therefore the girls don’t actually know what they sound like WITHOUT being tuned. If my theory is true, then this explains why they sound so bad during encore stages- they don’t know what they sound like without the polish of vocal filters. I really wish this group and others would get a grip already. Cause at this point idols are starting to look like glorified karaoke singers who dance well. *Just to clarify!!!* The reason that I have the theory that I do is because anyone who’s taken any form of traditional music classes I.e. choir, band, or even training under these companies- you should know BASIC music theory and should be able to find the correct pitch, tone, and display a level of control over your vocal instrument etc. There’s no reason why Yunjin, who’s a whole trained opera singer, is struggling in the capacity that she is. Let alone the rest of the members with the excuses of Eunchae & Kazuha who had no formal onstage background in regards to singing predubt. For Yunjin, Sakura, & Chaewon there’s no excuses for when they’re lacking. Especially Sakura being that she’s been in the industry so long, you’d think she’d been grew out of her teenage like insecurities and learned how to maintain a note or two. Yunjin as I said has some slip ups herself but nothing as egregious or frustrating. Chaewon often struggle with breath control at times and that leads to her pushing notes she doesn’t have to force at times but again, nothing too egregious or as noticeable as the issues with Sakura. All three struggle with their techniques in different ways. As for the latter two, Eunchae is developing surprisingly well but also struggles with breath support and tonality. Kazuhua has similar issues to Sakura however because she hasn’t been an entertainer for as long as Sakura, time and development is on her side. I hope she starts finding her own vocal color soon by emulating some of her favorite singers, her voice will grow beautifully once she starts practicing that.
If that's true the companies are really setting their idols up for failure... like what do you think is gonna happen?? Your theory seems plausible ngl and I really hope things will change. I think it's amazing when idols take initiative and improve with an external vocal coach but I also understand that they have incredibly busy schedules. It's on the company to offer the free time or even better vocal lessons and it's on the idol to take that opportunity and do their best.
exactly kind of weird seeing them struggling to correct their pitch of their own songs. people should watch exo's behind the scene recording session and you will see how they correcting/finding their pitch for better voice placement/projection by hearing the notes thru piano keys.
i agree with you but im kind of tired of ppl calling yunjin a trained opera singer - she learned operatic technique (and learnt it well) for a musical but iirc she hasnt further studied or taken up work with classical/opera. same with haseul, people call her an opera singer and she does have pretty good technique but she never worked as one or studied opera, she had an interest in opera and did choir in school.
well tbh kpop idols play into it as well 😂 every time they notice they sound like shit they touch their ear piece like how Jimin did in that one encore stage.. I notice it every time
or “it’s not in their vocal range” when i read this type of comments i laugh till my eyes pop, like why company gives them lines if it’s not in their vocal range and it’s just sad
That's why second gen kpop is the golden era. They're not only capable of singing 100% live, but they also have some of the strongest dancers in the industry, e.g. Hyoyeon, taemin, hyolyn, etc.
Totally!! I miss the 2nd gen era! Every group was distinct, they were gd singing live and awesome on stages performing with passion & u can see they enjoyed the stage so much!! Now groups r just going through the choreography strictly..n lip syncing 😢
there are a lot of unbelievable talents in 2nd gen, including dancers (i would like to bring up victoria and luna of f(x)) but especially vocalists. the choreos for many second gen groups, especially girl groups, weren’t always very demanding so many idols didn’t get to show their true skills. i think third gen was a transitional period which focused more on a mix of visuals, performance, and vocals. so you had groups like seventeen, red velvet, etc. who each have a couple of strong vocalists are able to come together greatly as a full group. a group like exo or mamamoo is a standout from earlier third gen. now the standard in kpop is very demanding dances and little to no vocal training lol. and even in songs with simple choreos or even none at all, so many fourth gen groups still struggle. i would say this likely has to do with the popularity of social media, and especially tiktok, so companies are a lot more focused on visuals and dancing rather than vocals cuz u can edit vocals to all hell, but not really dancing. and bighit specifically has never stood out with their vocalists in any generation to be honest 😭
@@no1meu Luna really is the full package. She's a dancer with one of the strongest vocals in Kpop. Speaking of girl groups choreo, many of them dance in heels so it's impossible to do difficult choreos. Many of them also sing 100% live so I'd imagine it's incredibly difficult to sing while dancing in heels, for example Sistar. Recent generations don't really do mature concepts so there's no need to dance in heels, which makes it possible to have harder choreos.
For me it's the company's fault actually. The screening process should be enough to know their capabilities. Why debut a trainee that lacks the ability to sing at least decently (unless if he or she is a rapper role). They rely too much on vocal altering technology and rush trainees to debut just to make profit and when the idol's vocals gets exposed they get hate and backlash. But at the end of the day they still get $$$ at the expense of their mental health from all the criticism they get.
I half agree half disagree. Companies need to stop debuting people as idols if they can’t even sing at least a little decent yet but also sometimes these idols have the money and ability to get their own vocal coaches to help them but they just don’t want to improve
Fans are partially to blame too. They will keep supporting groups, spending money on groups all because of stan culture. It's the fans who don't care about vocals
The only thing I disagree with in this video is that being a bad vocalist is justifiable if the idol is going in dance + stage presence. I disagree. The only time that's acceptable in my opinion is if they are a great rapper. You have to do something good with your voice. I'm tired of Main Dancer, Sub Vocal/Sub Rappers + Visuals in groups. If you are amazing at dancing cool, be in a dance crew or be a backup dancer. People don't go on Spotify to listen to your amazing dancing, but your voices. It's like Xiumin said in NCT Lastart, "No matter how good you are in dancing, if you're not a good singer, you don't look talented."
@@eva-b2h7l Exactly. Like, hello? There's a reason Bahyiah of Kep1er mostly get's adlibs lol. But to be honest, literally everyone in Kep1er besides Chaehyon is weak vocally, maybe the weakest 4th gen vocal group and that's saying something. When only 2/9 members in your group can support, you know there's a problem.
"You have to do something good with your voice." This is a really good point. If you can't offer anything vocally whether that's by way of singing or rapping, all you are is a dancer. I know in the case of Sakura, a lot of people like her personality and from what I've heard she's really good at variety, which I get is also a valuable skill. But then again, why not just pursue a career doing variety shows if you can't sing or rap. I'm not trying to bash her but it just doesn't make sense to me.
Even in izone era, i never had any expectations from sakura in the vocal department so i never got disappointed by her encore performances however, i totally get the frustrations many people feel over sakura's vocals since she gets too little lines which are very easy to sing but her delivery is not even on the decent level considering she's literally just standing.
Bruh, this girl has debuted so many times that I'm actively doubting she actually wants to be an idol. At this point either she is doing it for fun or just does not like singing because it's actually insane
She does seem she wants to be an idol considering the effort she put in improving her stage presence and dancing but her vocals aren't ever being focused on so she's still stuck there.
@@baoziday5178bro,she never took vocal lessons before debuting in le sserafim,But the thing I don't get is what is she doing right now,Then! Considering that she's in the industry for Quite a while,she should be at least decent,But she has been singing since her childhood without getting any sort of vocal lessons or vocal guidance!!
@@Abbieh07CB fearnots say she has been but I haven't heard signs of any improvement. A lot of fearnots says she's improving but she just at sounds the same to me. And apparently she does crocheting in her free time but if you have a skill to improve, work on it. Like, idk, the work ethic of Hybe's 2nd half of fourth gen is just confusing. Especially since I'm used to certain members of groups training after hours if they know they're lacking somewhere. So, either something about the songs needs to change or the girls who are struggling need extra lessons. Cause Hybe can't keep hiding behind autotune forever because they're *gonna* have to keep singing live
ive seen some korean comments talking about how their "ambitious" image is kinda backfiring at them with this recent events, and i can't help but agree to some extent. like yeah, they're probably one of the best performers of their generation and their charisma on stage really shows. but where's all that ambition when it comes to singing? sure hateful comments are part of the reason why they look so scared when the mic is on, but they can't run away from vocal training forever. not without some consequences. on that note, getting a good vocal coach in order to develop their technique and correct bad habits would Greatly improve their confidence. honestly, coming from stanning groups that are known for having good vocalists like exo and nct really just makes me more disappointed with today's standards to be an idol. like im not asking for perfect robots or the spiritual heirs of celine dion, i just want idols who don't look like they're about to flinch whenever they're asked to sing Live without any touch ups or anything. idols who can at the barest of bare minimum sing their own songs comfortably.
@@mc1069 ok first and foremost yunjin is not even the best dancer in her own group. she's competent and a very charismatic performer, that's a fact, i love watching her fancams personally, BUT she's not their best dancer. and she might be the best singer among them (although considering how low the bar is that's not saying much), but she's honestly not a top singer of her gen. not when we have a whole nmixx out there. also, this is not me trying to be shady bc i genuinely like her and i think she's a really ambitious artist, but she's not changing the game. not by much, at least. sure it's cool that she encourages her members to eat instead of going on restrictive diets and talks about beauty standards on her songs But that's not necessarily going to make significant changes overnight, especially in a industry that has been working the way it does for years even before she was even born. i love her and her ambition, but she will need to do a lot more to actually Change the idol industry. good for her for acknowledging its flaws and wanting to be different, though.
every time people bring up the 'having fun on stage' I think of stray kids during that one case 143 stage when the hyung line piggy-backed the maknae line, they were just as stable as ever, even the maknaes who were being jostled around didn't really falter and I really admire that
😂😂 I remember that! However, once again... Despite being well known for their rap and dance abilities, over half of them are dedicated to their vocal lessons as well. It's because of this they are so beloved on THE First Take, meanwhile natural talent and practice doesn't hurt either, which is why the won Kingdom. They actually all sound AMAZING when just standing and singing, AND strong and stable when dancing. They put the time and effort In to bettering themselves! That's what all 4th gen groups need to do if they didn't debut as a "vocal focused group" ... they need to try putting some focus on vocals!! Because when a rap focused group can literally sing circles around 90% of HYBE, that's heartbreaking. (Thank heavens for SVT, such BADASSES 😂 Just syin. And even F9... otherwise 🤷🏼♀️)
@@DaddiesLittlePsycho yes yes very true, they might not be an exo but skz have some of the most stable vocals in 4th gen. Although they've never been 'bad', they've been constantly working on themselves and improving
It's like I don't expect every idol to be an amazing vocalist, but they need to at least be abel to sing their own songs properly. I feel like itzy is a good example of it none of them are great vocalists technical wise, but they are all able to decently sing their songs live, because although they lack in technical aspect, they at least have good intonation, and stability, is very rare for them to go out of pitch, especially yeji, girl 90% of the time souds the same as the recorded version
100% agreed plus itzy are literally nullifying the argument of "a dance-based group does not have to sound good live", since itzy are THE dance-based group and manage to be stable and in tune while dancing to smth as hard as mitm? come on, le sserafim, HYBE, you can do better
I think Itzy is the best example to compare with since they got so much hate for not being vocal power houses but they can still sing and dance all while being stable. So if Itzy can do it LS has no excuse
@@varvara9624 exactly I'm not expected them to sound like nmmixx, aespa and red velvet, I'm comparing them to itzy that it's a dance base group, I would say they are THE dance base group, and they are still abel to sing live alright, sk what is the lesserafim excuse? It's not looking good for them at all, even yujin who on paper has good technie and I would expect to sound really good is falling
its crazy that so many fans are just saying "idc abt vocals" so you don't listen to the music?? to make music you need vocals. you do care about vocals you just don't want to admit that ur fav can't sing
It’s true they really don’t care about vocals bcs they enjoy autotune studio voices and for live performances fans enjoy watching their dances and dressing styles that’s why idols and companies don’t care on vocals too so why do they need to invest more 💰 on vocal couches when their fans don’t care or complain about it so the real fouls are their fans
@@meridakeo1726 the thing is all artists use pitch correction/autotune. it's not just a kpop thing. also autotune can only do so much. fans aren't stupid, they can tell when something has been tuned to oblivion. this means artists Have to know how to sing, even just a little bit, just so it's believable. also companies do care. look at sm. they've been consistently putting out insane vocalists since 1st gen. and all those groups did rlly rlly well. even groups like nmixx, dreamcatcher, and seventeen, have good vocals. and they aren't sm groups. it's not that the fans, or the companies, don't care it's that they care more about the visuals and dance aspect of kpop. which isn't a bad thing. i just think it's naive and untrue to say you don't care about vocals. although you are correct in a way bc recent groups (esp ones from tv shows where the public chooses the members) don't have strong vocals. in that case the fans focus is on visuals, appeal, and dance usually. look at illit, look at izone. they have good vocalists but they are also full of not so good at singing/dancing members. i find it saddening that that's what the industry has come to. i mean visuals have always meant something. but in prev gens visuals had the talent to back it up. eg jaejoong, yoona, taehyung, etc.
@@inquisitvem6723 EXO can lipsync their entire career but people will still believe that they have top tier vocals. I mean it's still them singing on the lipsync track. You can't fake those vocal acrobatics (prominent vibrato, crazy riffs & runs, vocal control) with technology from their early days. While LSF music is 99% always straight tone which is very easy to manipulate with technology to make it sound good.
If you hear exo's music you can easily say that they don't lipsync ,they talk and laugh and change lyrics too ,if they lipsync once doesn't mean they will do it every time,and you can hear them singing with no music many times,their vocals are no doubt,please be fair @@inquisitvem6723
I'd rather listen to o.o, at least the girlies in nmixx can actually sing while le sserafim girlies had had to rely on autotune in order to sound decent.
This part at 6:05, SM may be an evil company but I freaking love how they choose and train their Idol. Just watch the survival show for their trainee, they are so good. Even trainee with less time of training is so freaking good. I really recommend all of you to watch NCT Universe: Lastart
I feel like its hybe fault. That company has zero knowledge about vocal range and vocals in general. They be like "one vocal range for all idols" , chaewon's vocal range is high but they still ask her to sing low vocal song to set her up and same goes with taehyung whose vocal range is deep but he was forced to sing high vocal range songs. Nobody is asking ssera girlies to hit a note like mariah carrey ,the least they could do is sing their own song decently and confidently especially when the song is literally easy to sing.
and the fact that fearnots were dragging the hell out of THAT one Wendy's vocal fail video is funny to me. like.. Wendy is a great vocalist who doesn't even have to prove anything about her vocal skills anymore. but your fav's ABSOLUTELY do. they've been struggling to sing live since like forever, yet y'all still have a guts to dragg other idols vocals when they're literally FAR ABOVE your favs vocally...
I made a driving analogy for this. Lsf are drunk drivers who have committed multiple offenses and should have either gotten more or better driving classes, instead of just being handed a Cadillac and a driver’s license. Wendy backed into her own mailbox for the first time in the 10 years she’s had a license. She’s worked hard to hone her skills and someone noticed and taught her how to be even better.
Out of everyone, they dare to drag WENDY? WHAT THE? Their attempts at trying to make everyone focus on anything that is not their fav disastrous encores are so pathetic.
Sm fans literally come after the "greatest vocalists" with videos consisting of "voice cracks" (like wtf) n "apparently lipsync videos" which aren't even the lipsync ones.
@@trijakamei6819 This is a video about live singing, so I’m sorry if your favs are here. However, SM has a higher standard of vocals and singing. Even their weakest vocalists worked really hard to improve and become some of the best and well-known and have gone on to have solo careers like Taemin, Kai, and Ten. A lot of times, other big to mid-sized companies like Hybe or JYP or Cube get criticized because they should the funds and time to be able to train all their trainees to be some of the best vocalists, but they’re not. And it’s embarrassing.
Also she was completely live towards the end of a concert filled with hard songs, singing the hardest part of a hard song in the clip. While getting ready for a comeback. And she still sounded way better than lsm’s encore
Tbh I think idols can take some responsibility themselves to improve on certain skills if they really desire to. I’m just thinking about how some of Stray Kids’ vocalists have been taking singing lessons with teachers outside of JYP, I think.
Again, the idols themselves have to have the desire to work on those skills themselves though. I don’t follow Lesserafim too closely, so I can’t really say much about whether Sakura puts in work to improve her singing.
I think it's more complicated... We all know how overworked idols are, they have no vacancions and the bare minimum of free time, so how can they have regular vocal training out of their agency, which is responsable of the coordination of their schedule ? It's must be very complicated, and even if they may have some time for themseves, I perfectly understand they want to take it to rest, since kpop is destructive for mental health. I personnaly cannot understand how Seugmin can do that, with all comebacks SKZ drop in a year... I don't think that's human at all... I don't want Seugmin's lifestyle to be the standard or the "example to follow", because maybe him can handdle it, but that's not the case of the human majority. It would be unfair (and I think destructive) to make Seugmin's exception the rule.
hmmmm i get what ur saying, but considering how Lee Know and I.N. are also taking vocal lessons outside of the company, it seems sustainable (same with how Hyunjin is still taking dance lessons.) Maybe they're not as consistent during comeback season, but singing is the one thing that is easier to be consistent with, because even half an hour a day or just daily breathing exercises builds a habit and works towards steady improvement, so I'm assuming the vocalists in SKZ do what they can since they're especially focused on improving their voices. @@mianmian3984
Like skz members Baekyun of exo one of the best vocalists in kpop still taking vocal lessons for 12yrs no matter how busy they are , also other exo members too nd wendy too... Caz they are actually passionate about their jobs
Those fearnots defending Lesserafim should definitely watch this video. It is an eye-opener. Also, I am actually really scared for them performing at Coachella. I can see the hate from the K-pop fandom (or even other fandoms) they will get after that from miles away.
Yeah it makes no sense who is the person who decided the girls would be great guests at coachella with such bad singing skills? It will definitely be amazing, but not in a good way tho
People put Coachella on this pedestal, thinking it must be more "live" because its in USA or something... backtrack & audio correction also exists in USA. You can do the same half backtrack, half live thing, which kpop groups are very practiced at doing in USA as well. Unless someone really screws up, it will be fine
For me an idol's first priority should be vocal... atleast sing their parts in a decent way cant expect the studio version in live but a decent sounding vocal will do.. but in the case of lessarifim Sakura why she is gettinge extreme hate is cause she has been a idol for more than 10 years..
Yeah but most of that time was in akb48 which put not importance or trained vocal technique at all. So comparison to Shuhua is very good since they both debuted in kpop in 2018.
this may be harsh, but atp i feel like if you're not good at anything vocally you should either have no lines or not be an idol. if you can't rap OR sing even decently, why are you in a group that produces music? join a dance crew or something.
@@B2xNyit’s also kinda wack because singing is absolutely a trainable skill, and i really don’t think training to a point of being able to be on pitch and not strain constantly is an unattainable goal to reach for someone whose paying career, let alone dream, is music based
@@hoa3901 Thank you. Someone gets it!! With how much money Hybe makes or how much the girls get paid, they absolutely should be able to afford a good vocal coach.
I swear, you're really the most level-headed person when it comes to providing constructive criticism towards idols!! You're always tough but fair, but you're never mean and you always emphasize that the idols still need to be treated with respect. The way so many stans talk about subpar vocals on Twitter can get so needlessly cruel that it becomes stupid. What you say at the end-"we're responsible for the way we react"-is so needed. Thanks for another great video!
I listened to the other Easy encore stages and i can definitely hear an improvement (mostly Kazuha) in singing. I do think they need more vocal training so they can fully show their skills. Yunjin and Chaewon are definitely Le sserafim's vocal backbone.
an excuse that i frankly don't like for the lsfm encore is that 'this song is too low' when it's literally the comfortable talking range. it was a poorly done encore and fans and nonfans alike should be able to move on from it without creating a myriad of excuses for why it's bad or constantly bringing it up for years to come as a drag.
Easy actually is a bit too low for them. Most idols actually have pretty limited technique for their lower register. Only a few 4th gen female idols actually have good techniques like Yuqi and Ningning. And Yuqi is mainly because she's a contralto.
The point is, if the company knows the girls have limited range, then find a song that actually fits their vocal capability. So they can at least sing it live. A good example for a group with limited technique but know their capability is Itzy. They always go for something that will help their stylistic singing shine instead of their technique. However, groups these days tend to choose complex vocal arrangements and ends up with very monotone singing because the song is too hard to sing. Along with complex choreo. And then you'd expect them to be able to sing live 😂
@@notmyname3556 i'm going to have to disagree with you here because even a soprano with 6 weeks of training would be able to easily (sorry no pun intended) sing the 'yeah i make this look easy~~~~' refrain. a song with a similar standing note in the chorus would be gidle's oh my god (funfact: the extended note for 'easy~~~' is higher than 'sky' in oh my god's 'she took me to the sky~~~. it's a C4 in lsfm's song vs a B3 in gidle's song) and all the members (okay well 50/50 on if shuhua would be able to sing it serviceably tbh) can sing the phrase with ease despite everyone except yuqi being a soprano in gidle. like i said in my original comment: it's an excuse i don't like. i can understand them struggling with some of the verses because some of the notes are genuinely quite low, but the fact that they make even the chorus/refrain of the song sound 'low' is bc lsfm's vocals are simply /extremely lacking. the bright side is that they can only go up from here! plus, they are clearly a performance-centric group, it's okay if they don't have stellar vocals. however, the songs they are given are not vocally challenging: the argument that was used with twice or itzy does not apply to lsfm. (also yuqi is nowhere NEAR being a contralto! she is a mezzo ^.^ )
@@notmyname3556 but with lsfm there is no 'comfortable vocal range' since unforgiven was supposedly 'too high' while easy was 'too low.' tbvh, even among hybe they are the group with the least vocal skill and that's truly saying something. i have hope that they will improve after getting the criticism, i know enhypen also had a godawful encore in their second year too but took time to improve since then even though they still aren't good singers. i can see that happening with lsfm too!
3:34 i think the biggest difference between the two is that shuhua is improving (really slowly, but is) while sakura has been in the industry for a decade and STILL can’t sing even the basics
Not to defend how her technique is now but a lot of it was in jpop group akb48 that didn't really put much importance to vocal technique. So I think the comparison is fair enough.
shuhua has not improved in singing. the only difference is that miyeon intervened to save all of shuhua’s bad encore moments. le sserafim need that teamwork.
No coment on the video subject matter lol. But watching those Exo & Girls Generations performances makes me sad and wish I had discovered Kpop back in the early 2010's because that was really the Golden Age of Vocals in Kpop. You could see how SM groups really dominated back then with acts like Shinee, Super Junior, TVXQ, Girls Generation, F(x), Exo ect. Like damn! And most of these groups had the whole package dancing, performance, vocals, truly stan worthy talent. 💯 If anyone wants to share their fav live performances from that Era please do, I'd love to see them!😆
Too many favorites, but I'll stick to the theme and recommend some Shinee encores: Dream girl (I think Jonghyun promised to do 100 pushups...) ua-cam.com/video/T9vnI_i32q8/v-deo.html Everybody (Halloween stage, this time Key lost the rock-paper-scissors) ua-cam.com/video/N07NFch6hNg/v-deo.html
Yo también hubiera querido vivir esa época llena de talentos... Lo que yo te puedo recomendar son los Encore de Shinee, Red Velvet y sobre todo los de EXO, literalmente no tienen Encore malo! Mis favoritos son de Obsession, Love me right, Monster... Y más reciente su actuación en su Fanmeeting donde cantaron Let me in en vivo ❤. La SM, a pesar de todo, tiene grandes artistas, voces de calidad y joyitas musicales; no es solo marketing.
@@Pos1t1veThinking Idk why I didn't get a noti for your reply🙄 these are 2 encores are awesome😆 just Shinee being their goofy selfs while devouring live vocals👑👏🏼 Thank you for sharing!💚💙💚
@@Clau.7 En ese tiempo yo estaba en mi Anime y Emo Era no sabia del Kpop.🤣 Pero yo se que hubiera estado obsesionada con Shinee, pero el Universo me lo impidio vivirlo.🥲 Que bueno que tenemos UA-cam verdad 🙌🏼 No hay duda que los grupos de SM siempre van a tener buenos Encores, A mi tambien me gusto el de obsession, fue divertido como hicieron el relay 😆
Le Sserafim is becoming a group where I like the processed/pitch corrected songs alot but I would never pay to see them in concert. I can enjoy the music they put out because it's "fixed" and sounds good and their videos are entertaining but time and time again they are proving that their live vocals are mediocre sadly. While yes there is more to being an idol than just vocals but vocals SHOULD still be a priority. When basically the entire group is struggling vocally then something is wrong. It's not that one member who is more a main dancer/stage presence person so that's what they bring to the performance while the other members focus more on the musical aspect...this is not a well balanced group in that case.
And this is why 2nd gen idols should be allowed the grace of 'live' stages because they've already proven themselves. They were really out here singing fatigued voices and all
Oh come on. EVERYONE can learn how to sing decently, especially a hand picked group of people who are being paid to be singers. There is plenty of careers in dancing, modelling and acting for people who have other talents.
@@via45 it's honestly both the company and the idol as soon as the idol is established enough to be able to afford a singing teacher if the company doesn't care.
My mentally disabled, tone deaf sister is in a choir. Once a week. And she is (slowly) improving! If she can improve, so can a non-disabled idol who is getting PAID to do it full-time!!
Lesserafim's fans are really trying their best to protect their idols. Instead of making their idols awared of their vocals, they literally went "because the song notes are low for Lesserafim". LOL
Controversial but I will say it. I hate Yujin's vocal in this comeback. I know that that she is the strongest vocalist in this group but when hear her voice on videos when she is on the stage she sound so horrible so that sometimes I can't find the difference between her and Sakura's/Kazuha's singing. And to be honest (I have a feeling that she regressed.) Maybe It's just me, idk. But yeah, in this comeback only Chaewon sound good for me when she's on stage.
not only you. A lot of people use the "opera training" excuse to shut down any criticisms of Yunjin's singing. The thing is i don't think Yunjin has fully learned to adapt to pop music singing. Just because someone can sing a classical piece doesn't mean they can sing in every musical style. Let's look at dancing for instance Kazuha literally had to learn a whole new dance style because being an excellent ballet dancer doesn't mean you will be an excellent idol dancer obviously there are certain things you learn in one discipline that will help you in learning the other but it isn't enough imo.
@@mitchierainbow7353 Thank you for this comment. Really. Because sometimes when I read comments about her vocals I'm thinking: "Am I crazy? Why is everyone (literaly everyone) praising her for her "good and strong" vocals while I'm the only one who can't just listen to it". And about adaptation to pop music, I fully agree with you. She need more time and training to transition and get used to this style.
She has regressed. She never had an excellent mix or mid register, but it was far stronger back in Produce. Her mix now is almost abysmal. Her head voice is what makes her climb up the vocal rankings
I feel like yunjin's classical training before debut has slowly been erasing itself, not because of pop vocal training ( lol what else can you expect from hybe), but because of minimal or no training/serious practice at all . Her classical sound is still there, but the technique feels worse. Is it just me who feels this way?
@@almilall Fact! 😂 But the truth is, SM artists can lipsync well because they can sing well. They know what facial expressions to show when lipsyncing because they actually show said facial expressions while singing it live themselves. One great example is Wendy lipsyncing to Chandelier. Like what?! Facial expressions on point! 😂 I always ALWAYS find it difficult to distinguish if SM artists are lipsyncing or not. 😅
Yunjin came into her kpop debut with serious vocal chops and a lot of amazing potential. She had operatic training. It was a serious boon for her. But the longer she's in Le Sserafim the more she is going to lose that. They are not a group that focuses on vocals, and they will never be a strong vocal group even with age. They are all visuals and dance. That is the way they have been molded, which isn't their fault. They just don't have vocal training or support coming from their company.
it really bothered me tbh when sakura got upset because people criticized her singing. it just felt like she stopped trying because of those comments. sometimes back in 2nd and 3rd gen, even the weakest vocalists would have either a solo song or stage that showed their vocals. they would specifically choose a song that wasnt too difficult but suited their voice. i think of around you by loona hyunjin or kang minhyuk star or even when btob peniel sang im yours by jason mraz. even though they were prerecorded, it kind of helped with peoples impressions of their voices. thus, giving them more confidence. i think sakuras issue is her confidence mostly. if she believed in herself more to sing well, she might try harder. infinite sungyeol had the same problem. they dont need to be ailee level, but for sure just feel like they at least have the ability to improve.
This makes me think of when Soyeon was a judge/mentor on survival shows and she told nothing but the truth to trainees and the audience. She did not baby them whatsoever and one of the singers in her group on Fantasy boys improved a lot due to her criticism. The problem is that stans of some these groups baby them so much that when someone gives criticism, they see it as hate. And we know that the company will never suggest them getting training because it's hard to accept you've let someone without talent enter the industry
I agree that a dance based group can be a legitimate thing and not all groups absolutely need a standout jaw dropping vocalist but I don’t think it’s too much to ask of professional singer/dancers to improve to a level where they can sing on key when their parts are quite simple. An example would be Irene and Yeri from Red Velvet. If you listened to them sing, you may be able to tell they are not the lead or main vocalist… but they are still on key and pleasant sounding. In Apink, aside from Eunji none are really outstanding singers, but they all sound fine. Same with Luna and F(x). Even looking at other dance based groups in the 4th generation… Itzy is not bad when singing standing still. For those who say all lipsync all the time standards hurts nobody…. It does. I think it does. It hurts idol trainees who are good at singing, but are relatively weak in dancing. It’s harder for them to get a spot, and if they do they get bashed more than the idols who are good dancers and terrible singers- an example is Aespa’s Giselle. Her rapping and singing are at a pretty good level but she’s a bit weak at dancing. She gets criticized so much for being a liability to the group by non fans/antis. A gif of unskilled dancing is much easier to disseminate than a 20-30 second video of bad singing. I think for LSF specifically people do feel a bit disappointed with vocals because they had expectation and their best singers are lackluster. Their fans hype Yunjin as an “opera singer” despite her never even being the level of a singer training at a conservatory let alone an actual opera singer. They also fail to consider how one style of singing translates to another. Furthermore she seems to have regressed since PD48. And as for Chaewon, she is a pretty good singer but her vocals are not impressive. The other three are noticeably weak. They don’t have an Eunji or Luna, and their weakest links are weaker than other groups weaker members have been.
Also, about the comment of who is to blame, the idols or the company, I personally believe is both of them AND the fans. I blame the idols to some extent because they could hire their own vocal coaches and improve on their own. Even in Lesserafim's generation they are idols who train outside of their company, and example would be some Stray Kids members, so they perfectly could if they wanted to. And primarily is the company's fault and the fans. Most fans don't really care about vocals that much, if an idol sound bad on stage they will find every excuse to justify them. There was a video I watched some time ago about autotune in Kpop and they made an interesting point when they brought up Girls Planet 999 and Kep1er. Only two of the selected members for Kep1er are vocalist (Chaehyun and Youngeun), the rest of them are dancers, rappers or mostly performers. So why should a company invest in vocal training for their idols if clearly a lot of fans don't really care about that? Hybe only needs to invest in their idols stage presence and dancing abilities, because fans especially in this generations really love crazy choreograpies and dance breaks. People can critique Lesserafim all they want, because the moment Lesserafim does another crazy dance break for a performance everyone will go crazy, so vocal training is not required for them.
At this point, with the backlash they've been receiving, even a bone-breaking choreo next comeback won't save them if their vocals stays the same. Netizens are starting to lose patience at their poor singing ability.
This is how I feel - encore stages are meant to be fun, Im happy to see idols having fun during them, but I also expect at least decent vocals too (I dont expect who knows what) in general. So while if the vocals aren't good, at least I hope for them to make the stage fun somehow.
This remind me about TEN’s Nightwalker stage on Lee Hyori’s red carpet. He manage to live sing using hand mix without backing track while giving 100% hard dancing performance. His vocal glow up was impressive too bad we don't get to see him in encore stage.
Encore stages are painful to watch sometimes because some of the idols neither sing good or at least look like they are having fun at all and its so awkward to watch them stand around nervously looking so stressed to sing THEIR OWN SONG😭
I feel like there's definitely a balance to be struck. I don't think it's necessary for every idol to be the best of the best vocally - I think allowing for natural talent to develop and grow throughout their career is perfectly acceptable, and I would even argue good, because it means that people without training can still have a chance to enter the industry on natural talent alone. But I think it needs to be fostered and grown instead of allowed to stagnate. And if you have a dancer, then a grasp of the basics should be present. Again, it's okay if they aren't perfect! Especially since it wouldn't be their main focus. But a grasp of how to hold a note would be ideal. And just like you said, I don't know whose fault it is - the companies, the idols, a combo? No clue. But I would like to go back to being excited about, for example, a really beautiful high note that's in the song, and seeing it done live knowing that it'll be at least somewhere close to how it sounds on their album, instead of worrying that they won't be able to reach it at all.
I won't lie I thought this video was going to feel redundant in regards to your original video on Encore stages. But I was proven wrong I respect the fresh take and distinct commentary on a subject we've discussed already in the past. Great stuff Also Haewon's voice crack was sooo cute
People were hating itzy back then for not having strong vocals, but they at least can sing their own songs live with very little issue while giving 100% energy on everything else. Novody told these idols they need to be the Beyonce of Kpop
I always look forward to encore stages, they help me determine if I want to see the artist at a concert. I’m not paying over 200+ for a concert where it’s 30% actual singing and 70% running around.
I feel like is both the idol's and the company fault. Why? well let's take Sakura's case for example, she has been in the industry for 10+ years but there hasn't been any improvement. I blame hybe for not given her (and the whole group) proper vocal lessons but I also blame her, because if she has time for crocheting (a very time-consuming hobby) why can't she spare some of that time to go and take some lessons? But if we are being realistic most of these idols would never improve due to their fans always making up excuses for their poor performance. As long as their keep making numbers, then it doesn't matter if their are good
Yeah if they make money anyway the company won't care to improve their skills, but I don't think it's fair to use the 10-year thing as something against her. Her time in akb48 as jpop idol didn't really put any importance in vocals and more on being a fun entertainer so it makes sense why she doesn't know that much about vocals.
Not everyone can sing WELL. That's the fact. But what's disappointing about Le Sserafim is when I listen to their encores, they are like completely different songs. Making me think how heavy the recordings were edited in the studio to come up with decent vocals for their songs.
“They’re just having fun” girl go look at Queencard encores. If ‘fun’ was your excuse, then queencards encores are a perfect example of fun while having good vocals. Queencard is more vocally challenging than Easy and the members have SO MUCH CHAOS AND FUN while having a great encore!!
The thing is its both the idol and company's fault because almost every k-pop group in hybe has a member that either strains their voice, cant keep up with pitch or has bad breath control, and clearly they arent doing enough vocal training but at the same time the idol a;sp has responsibility take for example baekhyun, he personally sort out vocal lessons because he wanted to improve. Theres no was a company is going to stop there idols from paying for vocal lessons. Both have fault in this.
I think if someone want to be called kpop idol or artist, he or she should be musician - singer, rapper or major instrument player. Not just dancer or sensual visual position. After that, fans and artists are building trust. We are getting less and less chance to hear real raw singing but they need to show us atleast they are trying. We dont question good teams not singing or failing couple times.
Fans get so defensive over sakura when people state that her vocals haven’t improved… but isn’t that embarrassing for you as a fan that someone you support has been in the K-pop industry for 5-6 years now and still sings like she’s see a middle school performance???that’s literally her job! No one’s expectating her to all of a sudden become Ailee, but where’s the improvement? I refuse to believe that she doesn’t have enough power or agency to ask for or get vocal lessons for herself when she was scouted by the company. The best example of 4th gen encore stages is nmixx
I feel bad for those idols who fought back then with live singing and great vocals trying to make Kpop a serious thing and not just dancing and looking good
Honestly, I was more surprised about how Yunjin also sounded off. I know she is a good vocalist but I would not have guessed it, from that stage alone. Makes me think that the song simply has too much autotune to sound good/the same without it.
The focus has gone from more well rounded Idols to a dance contest. Vocals are just an afterthought. You don't even have to be passable as a vocalist anymore in the industry because all of the imperfections are smoothed over in the radio edit and lip syncing went from being done in some occasions to nearly all of them, even when they're JUST SITTING THERE. No dancing, just sitting in a freaking chair, and they STILL lip sync. Vocal stability is no longer a requirement for companies-if you look pretty and dance well enough, you can be an Idol. I've become so disillusioned with the industry itself that if not for my loyalty to Dreamcatcher I would probably just stop following it altogether.
It's 50/50, I'd say it's still mostly on the company. You shouldn't debut somebody who just can't sing but at the same time, the idols themselves need to start looking for help elsewhere if needed. If Taemin did it, you can do it too. After learning a bit more about J-Pop training, I honestly feel bad about Sakura. 7 years singing with no training is bound to destroy your voice but still she needs to do something about it, they all do.
6:05 you need to also include SHINee's Replay and Love like Oxygen (literally, in their debut year) live performances when they sang 100% live even singing the backtrack also 😂
Thing is, the term IDOL was coined because the IDOL was good at singing and dancing, and had great charisma and stage presence. The "idols" now can barely sing. They're just glorified backup dancers. What's sad and pathetic are the idols who look frightened during the encore stages. They just know they didn't put in the work to sound at the very least, decent.
Agree hating on them is not the solution because it's affect their confidance, i think that fan who know a bare minimum on vocal should alert the idols but not agressive way but more in educational and caring way and praise them when they improve As i said it's mostly the problem of the agencies, in case of Hybe they don't invest at all in vocal and their only chance to improve really is to think to recieve advises from their friend idols, their seniors or benevolent fans, they can br aware of what they need and hire vocal coach outside hybe. Hybe i don't think they really care about vocal technique, all they want is that a high voice that please fan otherwise their wouldn't let Jimin damage his voice during 9 years and V wouldn't be scoled for not singing with a high tone (in an interview he was praised for his low tone and was asked if he had tips for his low tone, he shyly smiled and explained that he used to be scoled by their vocal coach for not singing high) By the way i want ask you something, i specify that i'm not vocaly trained but : when try to hit the lowest note that i can, when i say O i go lower than when i say A, when say O i can go down to B2 while for A the lowest is D3 Can you explaine me why is that ?
I enjoy live shows because it’s never the same song performed identically and that’s what music is about. The variation that can be reached without a lot of struggle, only different emotion and energy by the performers and the crowd itself.
I don’t expect all K-pop idols to have 2NE1, TVXQ, Girl’s Gen, Mamamoo, Dreamcatcher, NMIXX levels of live singing. BUT they should be able to carry a tune confidently while they’re just STANDING OR SITTING as they sing. Plus, if the backtrack or background music fails, you can still perform if you can sing. If the background music fails and your vocals suck, I don’t think your dance skills alone are enough to carry your performance. (Like, I recently saw a video where HwaSa’s backtrack stopped near the end of her song but she and her dancers still continued the performance because SHE SANG THE SONG so the dance was still on time.) Please, k-pop idols and their companies, please lend time for more vocal training 😭
The fault lies with HYBE. It's literally their job to ensure their groups can sing the songs given to them. Instead they choose to do heavy vocal processing. Personally, I no longer have high expectations for vocal abilities in kpop, so if I like the song I will stream it. However, the likelihood of me being invested enough to go to concerts decreases.
I was curious about your opinon regarding this particular encore stage and as always I wasn't disappointed. You're always on point when it comes to analizing vocal issues, I love it. I think idols should know the basics when it comes to singing live and it's frustrating to hear them sound bad (especially Yoon Jin who received vocal training as an opera singer). But let's be honest being an idol isn't an easy job, so let's not overreact
Yunjin was never operatically trained. She sang a role in Phantom of the Opera while she was still a musical theatre student, but she's not a classically trained singer. She's not a particularly skilled vocalist, and LSF's songs don't align with her strengths either.
While companies neglect should be called out, idols also can’t be blameless. When something goes wrong for a group whether it’s encores, fashion, etc it’s the companies fault, but what happens when they do well? Of course, I’m against witch hunts. I just mean that people should be consistent. IMO scandals can’t always be towards only the company and praise reserved only for idols. I’m just tired of some people shielding idols by using companies as a scapegoat for everything. All sides including idols, companies, and even fans need to take accountability when applicable.
the thing I notice is: only main vocals continue to get regular training as they love singing in general. some idols just do not practice at all or just don’t want to because nowadays a pretty face is all that matters to gain attention
@@goldenhourss yes! People in groups can have varying roles and interests which is fine but solid foundations in basic skills is so important to support the group as a whole. Also, personality hires, networks exist in every field but entertainment has always been a industry where a person's looks matter to the degree of impacting revenue - best-selling photocards, viral fancams, the visual position. It matters so much looks often overshadow talent. People give more chances to beautiful people to THEN look at their skills but rarely the other way around. I feel like it's gotten worse with social media skewing people standards to unreasonable degrees. Idols feel the pressure to live up to that.
What I don’t like is the hypocrisy Fearnots have. They dragged IVE or more recently Wendy for bad vocals, but when LSF do sound bad themselves they pull up the “encores are supposed to be fun” card. At least hold your own faves accountable since you have no trouble dragging other group who have/had the same problem your group always seem to struggle with.
I think you made a really hot point touching on hope nowadays most stages are edited. It puts a false sense of relief if fans especially newer fans, think that idols should sound exactly like in the recordings, when that’s not usually the case. When you’re not used to hearing a live stage you’d think that they sound bad because they don’t sound like they “ate the cd”.
I don't care if people don't care about vocals, i just want the treatment to be fair, if you are gonna excuse this? You better not be hating on idols who are WAY better. They attack everyone.
Thank you, really well-made video. Kpop is getting so underwhelming and the vocal standard has hit the rock bottom. It aches me to watch this regress as I was raised on 3rd gen kpop, especially Red Velvet. Red Velvet girls have not raised the bar too high, they made it just right. I am never going to change my mind on that RV’s non-vocal line is the absolute vocal ability bare minimum an idol should have. Honestly, I’ve started doubting if idols such as Sakura even have an ear for music? I love LESSERAFIM’s discography but I am never going to settle for less than F tier vocalists (please don’t bash me for bringing these up) in MUSIC INDUSTRY as well as for certain groups consisting in majority of “vocalists” of this miserable calibre.
"encore stages should be fun, it's to celebrate their win". the thing is they are neither singing decently nor having fun, they look nervous and uncomfortable as hell.
Yeah… it’s not particularly fun to see a group scared out of their mind singing quite poorly.
Imagine having to be scared because you just won an award... it's so sad what the industry has become. And I'm not blaming the idols for this, it's a problem with the companies. If all companies gave their idols as much vocal training as SM does (or at least used to do) they would be more than capable to give fun encores, especially since they're not even expected to perform the choreo.
And also why can't they have fun and sound good at the same time lmao
@@ike7484no one (especially not the companies) are forbidding idols from taking vocal lessons though. Many great vocalists have shared that they're taking lessons outside of their companies because they want to improve. All of these idols are mad rich and spend thousands every month on luxury brands. It could be harsh to say but the mediocrity comes from them
@@loupiote2315 It is true that some idols take vocal lessons on their own initiative, but I disagree with the idea that it should be a necessity left to them. The companies are the ones making big bucks in this industry, for their levels of fame most idols earn surprisingly little and have very little free time. You can also rest assured that if you see an idol flashing a luxury bag with the brand name plastered all over it they did not spend their own money on it, but are most likely getting paid (or rather their management is) to promote it.
Of course for an independet artist or someone looking to get signed in the first place it is another thing, then I would agree it is fully their responsibility to take vocal lessons.
if companies tried to squeeze in as much vocal lessons as they do with dance lessons we'd get way better encores
FOR SURE even half would be nice
From training's perspective, I really feel Hybe lack majorly when it comes to giving singing lessons, they just don't care, it seems
@@priyabarlota5137 The mindset of HYBE is that when you come to the company, you're already expected to be GREAT. They think that you shouldn't need vocal lessons if you get into HYBE (at least from my observations). Thus, the lack of training in singing.
@@iloveyouiwantyouseokmattchu that sounds like a very arrogant mindset tbh. like, sm has kind of that mindset as well, but they at least have good vocal coaches under them, or at the very least idols who are talented enough singers to teach the basics to other trainees. dunno if i can say the same about hybe.
Before debut days is what you should have mentioned because once you debut and from a big label, your schedule can be very busy
EXO's Xiumin said it best "To be honest, dancing isn’t that important. Singing is the most important. If you can’t sing well, no matter how good you are at dancing, you won’t look talented.”
Unless you are Momo. And even then
Edit: "Even then" means that even her insane dancing is not enough to save her from people saying she has no talent. It's true, she can't sing. Her hope lies in rap and even then it's not all that
@@Chuckles_The_Echidna she used to be kinda decent and maybe kinda good in sixteen era but right now she cannot sing, and maybe she is a good dancer but yet she's not talented, she is just that, a dancer.
Then he is the wrong industry….he should become a soloist. Also if singing is most important in kpop, then Mamamoo should be the top girl group and DREAMCATCHER or NMixx or StayC would be top 4th Gen gg.
@@inquisitvem6723 he’s not in the wrong industry at all, there is a place for vocals in kpop and there always has been. There have been and still are incredible vocal groups who not only sing live but are able to go above and beyond what normal pop singers can do to deliver some really technically difficult stuff. People pretending good vocalists don’t belong in this genre are enabling mediocrity to prevail and not allowing the music to reach its full potential.
And while vocal heavy groups are not necessarily the most popular groups out there, because marketing and music are what make the difference, we always see the popular groups who have bad live vocals or encores get dragged through the mud and called untalented, like Sserafim, like Jimin, like Twice. Xiumin was absolutely right, he was mentoring trainees on what they should focus on and his advice was completely sound.
@@_dont_mind_me what he is wrong assuming that vocals is the most important thing in kpop. I do think vocals is important, but that’s not priority in this industry and we can see it evident over the years. Sure some groups can sing, but that’s not few far in between. If dancing isn’t important, I can guarantee that kpop wouldn’t even be noticed. Why would I watch kpop when I can just go listen to Kelly clarkson, Jessie J, Ariana Grande, etc. The music, visuals, outfits, and dancing is the attraction to kpop. Sure I would like to see more groups that can do it all, but companies are in need to make $, thus pushing groups to debut fast .
Everyone’s gonna have an off day, but when those “off days” start to feel like the norm, I can’t help but feel suspicious.
honestly at this point i’m waiting for lsf to have an “on day” vocal wise
This! 👆
Yeah like that Wendy clip. We all know she's amazing and it just shows how good she is when she's struggling, you can tell.
@@nylawalker1629 exactly, just like I have no issue with some idols lipsynching or going out of tune because I know from evidence that they can sing well. Except Yunjin n Eunchae, none of them has proven they can do even the bare minimum vocally.
@@yullovelevolluy Going out of tune I understand but not lip syncing. I can be fine with a loud backtrack, but not lip sync. At least with a loud backtrack, I know that they're at least putting in the effort to do their job, but lip sync I have a problem with. You become a glorified dance crew at that point.
Baekhyun, one of the main vocalists of EXO still goes to vocal lessons. He talked about it in bubble days ago (sometimes he takes vocal lessons past midnight). Despite his busy schedule he makes time for it so I don't know what's the excuse of other idols for not making an effort to improve their vocal 😐
Woow.... That's called dedication. If an idol is actually dedicated to improve they will manage their things on their own whether their company will care or not.
Same with Mamamoo. They are learning new techniques in vocals in their soloist era
Thats why there's a clear difference between idols and artists🤷♀️
I’m having a Deja vu, cuz I saw the same comment months ago… it’s just weird to see it again.
it all comes down to their labels. Hybe doesn’t really have good vocalists, even as a parent company, it seems like every group under that label is hard focused on dancing. I’ve heard that only jungkook, jiwon, chaewon and yunjin have actual decent vocals… but rly? Only 4 individuals?? None of them are even close to someone like Wendy so that says a lot
@@PreciousIvy um Jin, V, Heesueng, DK, Seungkwan, the Fromis 9 girls etc they all can sing well and they are under Hybe💀
Not every idol needs to have the vocal abilities of Lily, Haewon, or Wendy. It's not necessary. However, failing to perform one's own songs properly on the live stage is deceitful. More importantly, the blame should go to the company behind, not to each member.
100%!!!
I completely agree! I don't blame the idols at all- the company needs to give them proper vocal rest and training.
Yeah, but we can't forget that some idols have some sort of agency. If Yunjin can write and release her own songs the idols can seek vocal lessons on their own. They have the money
@@MoMotaroDaisuke that's something i believe as well. idols like baekhyun for example have said they've looked for vocal coaches, and this was a little before he even had the seniority he has now.
also, if sakura can do crochet in between schedules, which is a notoriously time-consuming hobby, im sure she can squeeze a vocal lesson once or twice a week.
@@MoMotaroDaisuke exactly sungmin got his vocals coaching privately because jyp vocal coaches are so bad
Personally I don't care if Idols aren't all Sohyang level of vocalists, they don't have to be to sound decent. Especially when you factor in the choreography. But the least they can do is somewhat stay on pitch when just standing there, that's really not too much to ask.
ITZY I think is a pretty good example of functional approach to singing😉
Same. For me I care more about the music/choreography, but I don't want the second hand embarrassment of listening to vocals as terrible as mine 🙈
@@aintnootherfan wat is functional approach to singing?
@@user23q0 they're not terrible but not amazing either, Itzy is not a vocal group, is a dance group but all of them are kinda stable and her encores are not that bad compare to others.
@@user23q0 basically all the members can sing their own parts comfortably, even if they aren't main vocal material. which works for them since they're a very performance focused group and they're very commited to sing live.
4:35 OMG THANK YOU! I’ve seen so many people saying “encores are supposed to be fun, don’t take it so seriously” but they don’t get that it’s gonna be more fun for the audience if they sound good and look confident!!
if youre a great singer you can have fun and still sing good like theres no correlation at all😭
@@melc8226Facts
Encore stages aren’t supposed to catastrophically suck. I’ve had to argue with so many hybe stans on this issue and it just feels nice to be validated.
Plus le sserafim is damn near a 2yr old group and have struggled since debut to carry basic notes. All their encores go viral for bad reasons and atp the entire group feels like a scam.
Winter eating the chili before singing made me laugh honestly, it was so unexpected
I think the bare minimum for a music group should be decent vocals... a "dance based group" just makes me roll my eyes because if thats what companies or fans want to focus on them maybe they should just make or support a dance troupe. So many groups/idols have worked to improve themselves over time, if anything a group SHOULD only get better and better the further into their career they are. It's honestly just dissapointing as a fan
"Dance based groups" is a dance group. Please, at least has the ability to carry a tune live within their range.
Definitely not an excuse. ITZY is a dance-based group and yet they sing their songs live despite not having the best vocal techniques.
i mean, by definition a kpop idol comes closer to a musical actor than solely a dancer. they SHOULD be able to at least carry a tune.
Stans are kidding themselves. People don't buy albums because they like their dance.
Dance groups doesn't have this large fanbases.
If idols don't have the basic requirements of a music group, they shouldn't have the privileges.
@@unkofi445 honestly... Most people just don't seem to care about the music at all anymore 😔
We don’t expect everyone to be Chen but at least learn to hold a note
Right?!
exactly
Ouch 😂❤
Exo should learn to sing live not lip sync😅
@cartoonworld440 They can sing live.
In a world of k-pop where the editing, overproduction, and excessive use of autotune even in "live stages" just to make everything sound perfect - I know encore is suppose to be time for idols to enjoy their win but yes, encore stages is a good way to know if what you are praising is actually true. Imagine praising something that turned out to be fake stable vocals. "He/she sounds so heavenly", "He/she is an all-rounder", "He/She eating CD's for breakfast". Then you hear their encore and everything goes down the drain.
Its crazy how Kpop fans immediately make up excuses for their favorite idols' bad encore. "Their make was broken" "they couldnt hear themselves". Howre these problems fixed with other idols? How come groups like NMIXX or MMM do such a phenomenal job each time?
Of course this isnt targeted. I dont want to hate on LSFM. Theyve improved since Unforgiven and i applaud them for taking criticism and bettering themselves even tho theyre still lacking. I think the girls are genuinly hardworking but I want their vocals to get even better in the next comeback.
1:21 is the worst vocal of the kpop history
I actually like the unforgiven one more after hearing their newer ones
You're being too generous. They haven't improved, at all.
@@strangeclouds7 maybe I am lol. I wanted to show some level of acknowledgement as their choreo is perfected to the brim, that definitely takes a lot of hardwork. Their vocals have gotten more not off key tho they're still lacking, but either way, do you want me to edit my comment because I agree with you?
@@Bluwie._.piixxee no worries you're good
I don’t expect the new idols to be top vocals, but being able to sing a little bit without straining, going out of tune and breath as the least I ask them since they are also “singers”. But currently they are working harder and harder to became brand embassador, their main job right now is fashion 😂
More like their job is to be luxurious. Idol fashion at actual fashion events are typically bland and just pretty, but not incredible fashion wise
Most kpop idols are not even proficient at singing. Even when we look back to 2nd & 3rd gens. But the 4th & currently 5th gens are worse in comparison. At least we got Taeyeon, Hyolyn, Luna, Eunji, Yuju & Wendy as the benchmarks for their respective generations. Now, not as many.
@@mohamadfirdausbinmat2577 but as you said, in the past, yuri/sooyoung/victoria were not lead vocal material, but could at least sing their part without feeling nervous
@@robertalys8280I don't listen to Le Sserafim for their live vocals necessarily. I like their style, music, and uniqueness. Something different that has been lacking in the industry for a few years now. I'm sick of Itzy not trying to do different things. I'm sick of the new stuff all these top-level groups have been putting out. and I'm already sick fo 5th gen gg's and we haven't even really seen them in action yet.
All I know is I will be forever binging Dreamcatcher and Red Velvet.
Musical artists not being capable of singing their own songs is a pet peeve of mine... No matter where they come from, Kpop or Western pop of any other kind of music, they SHOULD sound better than this. Because imo, their primary field IS indeed music. They wouldn't have to dance/perform if there wasn't any freakin music, so they should be able to sing/rap/play whatever music they put out to sell. It's, like you said, not about being the new Ailee or Whitney Houston, but about being able to freaking play in the right key with the right rythm and a little bit of skill the music you're trying to make us buy. It's also not about the money in the first place, but cmon you cannot sell something you cannot sing. That's why i was never a big fan of Britney Spears or Jennifer Lopez.
100% true
This is the minimum someone should expect from people who are singers.
Another example is Lisas Solo stages. Till this day I don't get it why she is not able to fully sing her own solo songs. That is literally the minimum fans expect.
So true
FACTS
Britney Spears isn't as bad as what people perceive her to be. She got many bad moments but when it's good it's quite good tbh. Jennifer Lopez isn't as bad either but people seem to not want to look up those decent moments of hers.
it’s like a pianist not knowing how to play the piano😂 unless you’re a strictly DANCE group then you don’t have to sing but -
everytime I see their fans saying "but they did better in another encore", I look for the encore and they... still sound terrible?
Exactly. They see something good, where it absents.
And it’s the encore that’s autotuned and has a backtrack like pls be serious
@@jaegabyeonhae that one too but there was an unforgiven one where eunchae sounded worse than she did in the viral one and sakura sounded the same yet they said it was the good one
If they were good enough in other encores, there's no reason for the fans to say that. A good group won't be questioned just bc they perform bad once, and vice versa.
I bet some of their fans still listen to chipmunks song and say it's amazing
lets be fr, le sserafilm are improving, but their vocals are still unforgiven LOL. easy has an "easy" vocal range and they're still struggling. i just know the fearnots are gonna come after me for this 💀💀
Facts😂
Are they improving?
I dont see any improvement other then kazuha korean. That's all😂.
they are NOT improving. like at all
Honestly I think they've gotten worse. Their fearless encore sounded pretty good and stable but their recent encores are very shaky. It honestly just seems strange that they've regressed that much in just 2 years. Even Yunjin, classically trained vocalist who is easily the best singer in the group, sounded very shaky
The bar of standards in kpop is so high yet so low at the same time. 💀😭 Also Hybe has the money buy stocks of sm and not hire vocal coaches?
Yup they'd better hire some sm vocal coaches lol
I'm truly confused because how tf a billionare company cannot afford a decent vocal lessons? 💀💀💀
How about debuting actual people who have talent? Vocal coaches can only do so much.
@@texhnlyze6892Someone can be talented in something other than vocals. Vocal coaches can actually do a lot, however, what is needed is basic vocal knowledge.
@@starsxspace nah! With so much vocal backlash, instead of bringing good vocal coaches to their artist, they buy already good vocalist ( SM share) then Whenever someone say, Hybe is not all rounder, they sucks in vocal, Hybe stans will say, gurl we have Taeyeon, Changmin, ChenBeakSoo( oops they left SM) ".
one thing that i hate about kpop nowadays is that people focus more on the hardcore choreo. kpop stans now keep saying stupid things like if there are some people calling out their faves that "they can't sing", their fans be like "at least my faves is doing hardcore movements, unlike your faves who can't dance". just because some groups doesn't have hardcore choreo, that doesn't mean they can't dance 💀. like b1tch LOOK AT the 2nd gen and 3rd gen idols, their choreo maybe easier compared to idols nowadays but they sing live. and please don't bring the hardcore choreo as your excuse cause we got nmixx, itzy, and gfriend who can sing live while doing crazy ass choreo
if their choreo is too hard for them to be able to properly sing, then make the choreo less exhausted and sing live. If I was a company I would consider the abilities of the members. If the members can sing live while doing really hard choreo then good. They can still make iconic choreos but easier like blackpink dududu or twice TT.
@@vantefly EXACTLY. make it more simple if the choreo is too hard for them to sing live. And YES, you can make a iconic dance moves and still make it simple cause that is what most 2nd gen and 3rd gen idols did. No need to do a freaking acrobat for every freaking song. If the idols able to do it like nmixx then it's fine, but if it's not then DON'T do it. Companies only setting up these idols 💀
Atp both companies and fans need to sort out their priorities. For god’s sake this is KPOP not KDance Crew
Hard choreo is not only the factor here, vocal technique is also vital here and its obvious that HYBE prioritize dancing and performance than singing.
@@billliealim nah fr. Like if you want to see a hard ass moves then just watch dance crew like SWF.
I’ve felt frustrated by fans who try to brush bad encore stages under the carpet. You are doing your favorite idols a disservice. Even if many fans don’t care about live singing, as someone who used to perform live, I cannot imagine the feeling of knowing you’re about to sing terribly in front of millions, no wonder some idols look so afraid in encores!
I was rarely overly nervous when I was preforming, not because I’m Celine Dion, definitely not! It was because I felt prepared and that is what let me actually have fun and feel happy on stage. And you know maybe some idols don’t care but I imagine most wish for their fans to have confidence in them and for people to at least like their singing. Like if they have other talents/skills that they’re more focused on then sure, they don’t need to be the best at vocals, but most artists wouldn’t want people listening to their songs or stages being distracted by bad vocals!
Yes! The feeling of being prepared for what you’re about to do on stage is everything!!
I felt so proud when you showed Girls Generation and EXO as the ones who sang 100% live. Love them!❤
I think there’s no excuses for sounding this bad on your own songs. It’s one thing for doing a cover, it’s whole PROBLEM when you can’t sing your own songs as you did in studio. I think their company uses autotune live in their recordings therefore the girls don’t actually know what they sound like WITHOUT being tuned. If my theory is true, then this explains why they sound so bad during encore stages- they don’t know what they sound like without the polish of vocal filters. I really wish this group and others would get a grip already. Cause at this point idols are starting to look like glorified karaoke singers who dance well.
*Just to clarify!!!*
The reason that I have the theory that I do is because anyone who’s taken any form of traditional music classes I.e. choir, band, or even training under these companies- you should know BASIC music theory and should be able to find the correct pitch, tone, and display a level of control over your vocal instrument etc. There’s no reason why Yunjin, who’s a whole trained opera singer, is struggling in the capacity that she is. Let alone the rest of the members with the excuses of Eunchae & Kazuha who had no formal onstage background in regards to singing predubt. For Yunjin, Sakura, & Chaewon there’s no excuses for when they’re lacking. Especially Sakura being that she’s been in the industry so long, you’d think she’d been grew out of her teenage like insecurities and learned how to maintain a note or two. Yunjin as I said has some slip ups herself but nothing as egregious or frustrating. Chaewon often struggle with breath control at times and that leads to her pushing notes she doesn’t have to force at times but again, nothing too egregious or as noticeable as the issues with Sakura. All three struggle with their techniques in different ways. As for the latter two, Eunchae is developing surprisingly well but also struggles with breath support and tonality. Kazuhua has similar issues to Sakura however because she hasn’t been an entertainer for as long as Sakura, time and development is on her side. I hope she starts finding her own vocal color soon by emulating some of her favorite singers, her voice will grow beautifully once she starts practicing that.
If that's true the companies are really setting their idols up for failure... like what do you think is gonna happen??
Your theory seems plausible ngl and I really hope things will change.
I think it's amazing when idols take initiative and improve with an external vocal coach but I also understand that they have incredibly busy schedules. It's on the company to offer the free time or even better vocal lessons and it's on the idol to take that opportunity and do their best.
and that’s the tea 🍵
exactly kind of weird seeing them struggling to correct their pitch of their own songs. people should watch exo's behind the scene recording session and you will see how they correcting/finding their pitch for better voice placement/projection by hearing the notes thru piano keys.
i agree with you but im kind of tired of ppl calling yunjin a trained opera singer - she learned operatic technique (and learnt it well) for a musical but iirc she hasnt further studied or taken up work with classical/opera. same with haseul, people call her an opera singer and she does have pretty good technique but she never worked as one or studied opera, she had an interest in opera and did choir in school.
@@asssj6 see!!! You have TASTE!!! All of y’all get it!
The classic excuse of delulu fans: "Their in-ear monitor is not working properly". 😂
well tbh kpop idols play into it as well 😂 every time they notice they sound like shit they touch their ear piece like how Jimin did in that one encore stage.. I notice it every time
Bruh EXO sometimes do their encore without in-ear monitor 🤣
How many times did you hear "The Twice members were sick that day!"?
They were sick a LOT.
@@DP-mv7phyeah but Jimin has been singing live with back breaking choreos for last ten years, what is the excuse with 4th gen tho😂😂
or “it’s not in their vocal range” when i read this type of comments i laugh till my eyes pop, like why company gives them lines if it’s not in their vocal range and it’s just sad
That's why second gen kpop is the golden era. They're not only capable of singing 100% live, but they also have some of the strongest dancers in the industry, e.g. Hyoyeon, taemin, hyolyn, etc.
Totally!! I miss the 2nd gen era! Every group was distinct, they were gd singing live and awesome on stages performing with passion & u can see they enjoyed the stage so much!! Now groups r just going through the choreography strictly..n lip syncing 😢
Real! Literally 2nd gen has the best talents of kpop
2nd gen had a few truly amazing dancers, but on average, their dance skills are significantly weaker than 4th and 5th gen.
there are a lot of unbelievable talents in 2nd gen, including dancers (i would like to bring up victoria and luna of f(x)) but especially vocalists. the choreos for many second gen groups, especially girl groups, weren’t always very demanding so many idols didn’t get to show their true skills. i think third gen was a transitional period which focused more on a mix of visuals, performance, and vocals. so you had groups like seventeen, red velvet, etc. who each have a couple of strong vocalists are able to come together greatly as a full group. a group like exo or mamamoo is a standout from earlier third gen. now the standard in kpop is very demanding dances and little to no vocal training lol. and even in songs with simple choreos or even none at all, so many fourth gen groups still struggle. i would say this likely has to do with the popularity of social media, and especially tiktok, so companies are a lot more focused on visuals and dancing rather than vocals cuz u can edit vocals to all hell, but not really dancing. and bighit specifically has never stood out with their vocalists in any generation to be honest 😭
@@no1meu Luna really is the full package. She's a dancer with one of the strongest vocals in Kpop. Speaking of girl groups choreo, many of them dance in heels so it's impossible to do difficult choreos. Many of them also sing 100% live so I'd imagine it's incredibly difficult to sing while dancing in heels, for example Sistar. Recent generations don't really do mature concepts so there's no need to dance in heels, which makes it possible to have harder choreos.
For me it's the company's fault actually. The screening process should be enough to know their capabilities. Why debut a trainee that lacks the ability to sing at least decently (unless if he or she is a rapper role). They rely too much on vocal altering technology and rush trainees to debut just to make profit and when the idol's vocals gets exposed they get hate and backlash. But at the end of the day they still get $$$ at the expense of their mental health from all the criticism they get.
That’s true, I also think it’s generally more of an issue within the companies
not really, sungmin hired himself a private coach for vocal because jyp vocal coaches weren't good enough. IN got vocal training private too.
I half agree half disagree. Companies need to stop debuting people as idols if they can’t even sing at least a little decent yet but also sometimes these idols have the money and ability to get their own vocal coaches to help them but they just don’t want to improve
Fans are partially to blame too. They will keep supporting groups, spending money on groups all because of stan culture. It's the fans who don't care about vocals
Signing on trainees without training wouldn’t be an issue if companies actually… you know, trained them
The only thing I disagree with in this video is that being a bad vocalist is justifiable if the idol is going in dance + stage presence. I disagree. The only time that's acceptable in my opinion is if they are a great rapper. You have to do something good with your voice. I'm tired of Main Dancer, Sub Vocal/Sub Rappers + Visuals in groups. If you are amazing at dancing cool, be in a dance crew or be a backup dancer. People don't go on Spotify to listen to your amazing dancing, but your voices. It's like Xiumin said in NCT Lastart, "No matter how good you are in dancing, if you're not a good singer, you don't look talented."
I agree with you on 100%
and fans of such idols will be the first to complain about line distribution
@@eva-b2h7l Exactly. Like, hello? There's a reason Bahyiah of Kep1er mostly get's adlibs lol. But to be honest, literally everyone in Kep1er besides Chaehyon is weak vocally, maybe the weakest 4th gen vocal group and that's saying something. When only 2/9 members in your group can support, you know there's a problem.
Totally agree!
"You have to do something good with your voice." This is a really good point. If you can't offer anything vocally whether that's by way of singing or rapping, all you are is a dancer. I know in the case of Sakura, a lot of people like her personality and from what I've heard she's really good at variety, which I get is also a valuable skill. But then again, why not just pursue a career doing variety shows if you can't sing or rap. I'm not trying to bash her but it just doesn't make sense to me.
Even in izone era, i never had any expectations from sakura in the vocal department so i never got disappointed by her encore performances however, i totally get the frustrations many people feel over sakura's vocals since she gets too little lines which are very easy to sing but her delivery is not even on the decent level considering she's literally just standing.
Bruh, this girl has debuted so many times that I'm actively doubting she actually wants to be an idol. At this point either she is doing it for fun or just does not like singing because it's actually insane
She does seem she wants to be an idol considering the effort she put in improving her stage presence and dancing but her vocals aren't ever being focused on so she's still stuck there.
@@baoziday5178bro,she never took vocal lessons before debuting in le sserafim,But the thing I don't get is what is she doing right now,Then!
Considering that she's in the industry for Quite a while,she should be at least decent,But she has been singing since her childhood without getting any sort of vocal lessons or vocal guidance!!
@@Abbieh07CB fearnots say she has been but I haven't heard signs of any improvement. A lot of fearnots says she's improving but she just at sounds the same to me. And apparently she does crocheting in her free time but if you have a skill to improve, work on it. Like, idk, the work ethic of Hybe's 2nd half of fourth gen is just confusing. Especially since I'm used to certain members of groups training after hours if they know they're lacking somewhere. So, either something about the songs needs to change or the girls who are struggling need extra lessons. Cause Hybe can't keep hiding behind autotune forever because they're *gonna* have to keep singing live
the irony of sounding bad while singing about "making it look easy" LOL
😂😂😂😂
" Your vocal abilitie shouldn't get in the way of having fun " exactly
ive seen some korean comments talking about how their "ambitious" image is kinda backfiring at them with this recent events, and i can't help but agree to some extent. like yeah, they're probably one of the best performers of their generation and their charisma on stage really shows. but where's all that ambition when it comes to singing? sure hateful comments are part of the reason why they look so scared when the mic is on, but they can't run away from vocal training forever. not without some consequences. on that note, getting a good vocal coach in order to develop their technique and correct bad habits would Greatly improve their confidence.
honestly, coming from stanning groups that are known for having good vocalists like exo and nct really just makes me more disappointed with today's standards to be an idol. like im not asking for perfect robots or the spiritual heirs of celine dion, i just want idols who don't look like they're about to flinch whenever they're asked to sing Live without any touch ups or anything. idols who can at the barest of bare minimum sing their own songs comfortably.
@@mc1069me when i lie
@@mc1069lol I feel like you've been copy/pasting this exact comment for like a week, saying it won't make it true
@@mc1069 yeah nah she isn't.
@mc1069 you're kidding?
@@mc1069 ok first and foremost yunjin is not even the best dancer in her own group. she's competent and a very charismatic performer, that's a fact, i love watching her fancams personally, BUT she's not their best dancer. and she might be the best singer among them (although considering how low the bar is that's not saying much), but she's honestly not a top singer of her gen. not when we have a whole nmixx out there.
also, this is not me trying to be shady bc i genuinely like her and i think she's a really ambitious artist, but she's not changing the game. not by much, at least. sure it's cool that she encourages her members to eat instead of going on restrictive diets and talks about beauty standards on her songs But that's not necessarily going to make significant changes overnight, especially in a industry that has been working the way it does for years even before she was even born. i love her and her ambition, but she will need to do a lot more to actually Change the idol industry. good for her for acknowledging its flaws and wanting to be different, though.
The examples of live singing including EXO and SNSD (Girls' Generation) made me feel so HAPPY!
every time people bring up the 'having fun on stage' I think of stray kids during that one case 143 stage when the hyung line piggy-backed the maknae line, they were just as stable as ever, even the maknaes who were being jostled around didn't really falter and I really admire that
😂😂 I remember that! However, once again... Despite being well known for their rap and dance abilities, over half of them are dedicated to their vocal lessons as well. It's because of this they are so beloved on THE First Take, meanwhile natural talent and practice doesn't hurt either, which is why the won Kingdom. They actually all sound AMAZING when just standing and singing, AND strong and stable when dancing. They put the time and effort In to bettering themselves! That's what all 4th gen groups need to do if they didn't debut as a "vocal focused group" ... they need to try putting some focus on vocals!! Because when a rap focused group can literally sing circles around 90% of HYBE, that's heartbreaking. (Thank heavens for SVT, such BADASSES 😂 Just syin. And even F9... otherwise 🤷🏼♀️)
@@DaddiesLittlePsycho yes yes very true, they might not be an exo but skz have some of the most stable vocals in 4th gen. Although they've never been 'bad', they've been constantly working on themselves and improving
It's like I don't expect every idol to be an amazing vocalist, but they need to at least be abel to sing their own songs properly. I feel like itzy is a good example of it none of them are great vocalists technical wise, but they are all able to decently sing their songs live, because although they lack in technical aspect, they at least have good intonation, and stability, is very rare for them to go out of pitch, especially yeji, girl 90% of the time souds the same as the recorded version
100% agreed plus itzy are literally nullifying the argument of "a dance-based group does not have to sound good live", since itzy are THE dance-based group and manage to be stable and in tune while dancing to smth as hard as mitm? come on, le sserafim, HYBE, you can do better
I think Itzy is the best example to compare with since they got so much hate for not being vocal power houses but they can still sing and dance all while being stable. So if Itzy can do it LS has no excuse
@@varvara9624 exactly I'm not expected them to sound like nmmixx, aespa and red velvet, I'm comparing them to itzy that it's a dance base group, I would say they are THE dance base group, and they are still abel to sing live alright, sk what is the lesserafim excuse? It's not looking good for them at all, even yujin who on paper has good technie and I would expect to sound really good is falling
@@lastmimzy2606 exactly
its crazy that so many fans are just saying "idc abt vocals" so you don't listen to the music?? to make music you need vocals. you do care about vocals you just don't want to admit that ur fav can't sing
It’s true they really don’t care about vocals bcs they enjoy autotune studio voices and for live performances fans enjoy watching their dances and dressing styles that’s why idols and companies don’t care on vocals too so why do they need to invest more 💰 on vocal couches when their fans don’t care or complain about it so the real fouls are their fans
@@meridakeo1726 the thing is all artists use pitch correction/autotune. it's not just a kpop thing. also autotune can only do so much. fans aren't stupid, they can tell when something has been tuned to oblivion. this means artists Have to know how to sing, even just a little bit, just so it's believable. also companies do care. look at sm. they've been consistently putting out insane vocalists since 1st gen. and all those groups did rlly rlly well. even groups like nmixx, dreamcatcher, and seventeen, have good vocals. and they aren't sm groups. it's not that the fans, or the companies, don't care it's that they care more about the visuals and dance aspect of kpop. which isn't a bad thing. i just think it's naive and untrue to say you don't care about vocals. although you are correct in a way bc recent groups (esp ones from tv shows where the public chooses the members) don't have strong vocals. in that case the fans focus is on visuals, appeal, and dance usually. look at illit, look at izone. they have good vocalists but they are also full of not so good at singing/dancing members. i find it saddening that that's what the industry has come to. i mean visuals have always meant something. but in prev gens visuals had the talent to back it up. eg jaejoong, yoona, taehyung, etc.
6:05 Yaaas. Girl's Generation and EXO slaying live vocals. Those were the days.
EXO used to lip sync during their first couple years, so there is hope for LSF😂
@@inquisitvem6723 EXO can lipsync their entire career but people will still believe that they have top tier vocals. I mean it's still them singing on the lipsync track. You can't fake those vocal acrobatics (prominent vibrato, crazy riffs & runs, vocal control) with technology from their early days. While LSF music is 99% always straight tone which is very easy to manipulate with technology to make it sound good.
If you hear exo's music you can easily say that they don't lipsync ,they talk and laugh and change lyrics too ,if they lipsync once doesn't mean they will do it every time,and you can hear them singing with no music many times,their vocals are no doubt,please be fair @@inquisitvem6723
nah you're just lying now. And EXO didn't become the best vocal group over night lol. Saying lsf can be like EXO after 2 years is insane. 🤣🤣
@@inquisitvem6723ur crazy for saying that
they once said their ears were bleeding hearing o.o, now their eardrums are bursting hearing their idol's real voices🙉
I'd rather listen to o.o, at least the girlies in nmixx can actually sing while le sserafim girlies had had to rely on autotune in order to sound decent.
This part at 6:05, SM may be an evil company but I freaking love how they choose and train their Idol. Just watch the survival show for their trainee, they are so good. Even trainee with less time of training is so freaking good. I really recommend all of you to watch NCT Universe: Lastart
@bellearena000hard disagree on best visual part 😂
SM never debuts bad vocalists, its either you're a rapper or you're a vocalist. But even their rappers can sing decent.
I feel like its hybe fault. That company has zero knowledge about vocal range and vocals in general. They be like "one vocal range for all idols" , chaewon's vocal range is high but they still ask her to sing low vocal song to set her up and same goes with taehyung whose vocal range is deep but he was forced to sing high vocal range songs. Nobody is asking ssera girlies to hit a note like mariah carrey ,the least they could do is sing their own song decently and confidently especially when the song is literally easy to sing.
and the fact that fearnots were dragging the hell out of THAT one Wendy's vocal fail video is funny to me. like.. Wendy is a great vocalist who doesn't even have to prove anything about her vocal skills anymore. but your fav's ABSOLUTELY do. they've been struggling to sing live since like forever, yet y'all still have a guts to dragg other idols vocals when they're literally FAR ABOVE your favs vocally...
I made a driving analogy for this.
Lsf are drunk drivers who have committed multiple offenses and should have either gotten more or better driving classes, instead of just being handed a Cadillac and a driver’s license.
Wendy backed into her own mailbox for the first time in the 10 years she’s had a license. She’s worked hard to hone her skills and someone noticed and taught her how to be even better.
Out of everyone, they dare to drag WENDY? WHAT THE? Their attempts at trying to make everyone focus on anything that is not their fav disastrous encores are so pathetic.
Sm fans literally come after the "greatest vocalists" with videos consisting of "voice cracks" (like wtf) n "apparently lipsync videos" which aren't even the lipsync ones.
@@trijakamei6819 This is a video about live singing, so I’m sorry if your favs are here. However, SM has a higher standard of vocals and singing. Even their weakest vocalists worked really hard to improve and become some of the best and well-known and have gone on to have solo careers like Taemin, Kai, and Ten. A lot of times, other big to mid-sized companies like Hybe or JYP or Cube get criticized because they should the funds and time to be able to train all their trainees to be some of the best vocalists, but they’re not. And it’s embarrassing.
Also she was completely live towards the end of a concert filled with hard songs, singing the hardest part of a hard song in the clip. While getting ready for a comeback. And she still sounded way better than lsm’s encore
Tbh I think idols can take some responsibility themselves to improve on certain skills if they really desire to. I’m just thinking about how some of Stray Kids’ vocalists have been taking singing lessons with teachers outside of JYP, I think.
Again, the idols themselves have to have the desire to work on those skills themselves though.
I don’t follow Lesserafim too closely, so I can’t really say much about whether Sakura puts in work to improve her singing.
I think it's more complicated... We all know how overworked idols are, they have no vacancions and the bare minimum of free time, so how can they have regular vocal training out of their agency, which is responsable of the coordination of their schedule ? It's must be very complicated, and even if they may have some time for themseves, I perfectly understand they want to take it to rest, since kpop is destructive for mental health.
I personnaly cannot understand how Seugmin can do that, with all comebacks SKZ drop in a year...
I don't think that's human at all... I don't want Seugmin's lifestyle to be the standard or the "example to follow", because maybe him can handdle it, but that's not the case of the human majority. It would be unfair (and I think destructive) to make Seugmin's exception the rule.
@@mianmian3984I definitely don’t disagree with your points.
hmmmm i get what ur saying, but considering how Lee Know and I.N. are also taking vocal lessons outside of the company, it seems sustainable (same with how Hyunjin is still taking dance lessons.) Maybe they're not as consistent during comeback season, but singing is the one thing that is easier to be consistent with, because even half an hour a day or just daily breathing exercises builds a habit and works towards steady improvement, so I'm assuming the vocalists in SKZ do what they can since they're especially focused on improving their voices. @@mianmian3984
Like skz members Baekyun of exo one of the best vocalists in kpop still taking vocal lessons for 12yrs no matter how busy they are , also other exo members too nd wendy too... Caz they are actually passionate about their jobs
Those fearnots defending Lesserafim should definitely watch this video. It is an eye-opener. Also, I am actually really scared for them performing at Coachella. I can see the hate from the K-pop fandom (or even other fandoms) they will get after that from miles away.
Yeah it makes no sense who is the person who decided the girls would be great guests at coachella with such bad singing skills? It will definitely be amazing, but not in a good way tho
Backtrack exist
@@songkang3xsrvx i though it was forbidden at coachella 😲
People put Coachella on this pedestal, thinking it must be more "live" because its in USA or something... backtrack & audio correction also exists in USA. You can do the same half backtrack, half live thing, which kpop groups are very practiced at doing in USA as well. Unless someone really screws up, it will be fine
They will never agree 😂😂
For me an idol's first priority should be vocal... atleast sing their parts in a decent way cant expect the studio version in live but a decent sounding vocal will do.. but in the case of lessarifim Sakura why she is gettinge extreme hate is cause she has been a idol for more than 10 years..
yup even chungha herself said vocals are more important even though she’s an amazing dancer
Rapper's are exception in vocal @@worldwidefunnyguy
Yeah but most of that time was in akb48 which put not importance or trained vocal technique at all. So comparison to Shuhua is very good since they both debuted in kpop in 2018.
this may be harsh, but atp i feel like if you're not good at anything vocally you should either have no lines or not be an idol. if you can't rap OR sing even decently, why are you in a group that produces music? join a dance crew or something.
Some dreams are definitely meant to die. You can find a new dream. A better dream. One that doesn’t make my ears bleed.
@@B2xNyit’s also kinda wack because singing is absolutely a trainable skill, and i really don’t think training to a point of being able to be on pitch and not strain constantly is an unattainable goal to reach for someone whose paying career, let alone dream, is music based
@@hoa3901 Thank you. Someone gets it!! With how much money Hybe makes or how much the girls get paid, they absolutely should be able to afford a good vocal coach.
if they re best dancer of the group they have right to not sing imo 😂
I swear, you're really the most level-headed person when it comes to providing constructive criticism towards idols!! You're always tough but fair, but you're never mean and you always emphasize that the idols still need to be treated with respect. The way so many stans talk about subpar vocals on Twitter can get so needlessly cruel that it becomes stupid. What you say at the end-"we're responsible for the way we react"-is so needed. Thanks for another great video!
Thank you for these kind words!🥹
A kpop trend I cannot wait for: more focus on vocals, less focus on dance and visuals
I mean ideally keep the focus on dance too but have singing in mind when the dances are made so both their dance and singing shine.
Tbh were not having singing to the dance but dance to the song, they're SINGERS singing SONGS and selling albums like @@ClubPuguin
I listened to the other Easy encore stages and i can definitely hear an improvement (mostly Kazuha) in singing. I do think they need more vocal training so they can fully show their skills. Yunjin and Chaewon are definitely Le sserafim's vocal backbone.
an excuse that i frankly don't like for the lsfm encore is that 'this song is too low' when it's literally the comfortable talking range. it was a poorly done encore and fans and nonfans alike should be able to move on from it without creating a myriad of excuses for why it's bad or constantly bringing it up for years to come as a drag.
For unforgiven they used excuse it not their range, too high for them. For Easy it too low for them. Like what the hell is their range?? 🤣
Easy actually is a bit too low for them. Most idols actually have pretty limited technique for their lower register. Only a few 4th gen female idols actually have good techniques like Yuqi and Ningning. And Yuqi is mainly because she's a contralto.
The point is, if the company knows the girls have limited range, then find a song that actually fits their vocal capability. So they can at least sing it live.
A good example for a group with limited technique but know their capability is Itzy. They always go for something that will help their stylistic singing shine instead of their technique.
However, groups these days tend to choose complex vocal arrangements and ends up with very monotone singing because the song is too hard to sing. Along with complex choreo. And then you'd expect them to be able to sing live 😂
@@notmyname3556 i'm going to have to disagree with you here because even a soprano with 6 weeks of training would be able to easily (sorry no pun intended) sing the 'yeah i make this look easy~~~~' refrain. a song with a similar standing note in the chorus would be gidle's oh my god (funfact: the extended note for 'easy~~~' is higher than 'sky' in oh my god's 'she took me to the sky~~~. it's a C4 in lsfm's song vs a B3 in gidle's song) and all the members (okay well 50/50 on if shuhua would be able to sing it serviceably tbh) can sing the phrase with ease despite everyone except yuqi being a soprano in gidle.
like i said in my original comment: it's an excuse i don't like. i can understand them struggling with some of the verses because some of the notes are genuinely quite low, but the fact that they make even the chorus/refrain of the song sound 'low' is bc lsfm's vocals are simply /extremely lacking. the bright side is that they can only go up from here! plus, they are clearly a performance-centric group, it's okay if they don't have stellar vocals. however, the songs they are given are not vocally challenging: the argument that was used with twice or itzy does not apply to lsfm.
(also yuqi is nowhere NEAR being a contralto! she is a mezzo ^.^ )
@@notmyname3556 but with lsfm there is no 'comfortable vocal range' since unforgiven was supposedly 'too high' while easy was 'too low.' tbvh, even among hybe they are the group with the least vocal skill and that's truly saying something. i have hope that they will improve after getting the criticism, i know enhypen also had a godawful encore in their second year too but took time to improve since then even though they still aren't good singers. i can see that happening with lsfm too!
3:34 i think the biggest difference between the two is that shuhua is improving (really slowly, but is) while sakura has been in the industry for a decade and STILL can’t sing even the basics
Not to defend how her technique is now but a lot of it was in jpop group akb48 that didn't really put much importance to vocal technique. So I think the comparison is fair enough.
shuhua has not improved in singing. the only difference is that miyeon intervened to save all of shuhua’s bad encore moments. le sserafim need that teamwork.
No coment on the video subject matter lol. But watching those Exo & Girls Generations performances makes me sad and wish I had discovered Kpop back in the early 2010's because that was really the Golden Age of Vocals in Kpop. You could see how SM groups really dominated back then with acts like Shinee, Super Junior, TVXQ, Girls Generation, F(x), Exo ect. Like damn! And most of these groups had the whole package dancing, performance, vocals, truly stan worthy talent. 💯
If anyone wants to share their fav live performances from that Era please do, I'd love to see them!😆
Too many favorites, but I'll stick to the theme and recommend some Shinee encores:
Dream girl (I think Jonghyun promised to do 100 pushups...) ua-cam.com/video/T9vnI_i32q8/v-deo.html
Everybody (Halloween stage, this time Key lost the rock-paper-scissors) ua-cam.com/video/N07NFch6hNg/v-deo.html
Yo también hubiera querido vivir esa época llena de talentos...
Lo que yo te puedo recomendar son los Encore de Shinee, Red Velvet y sobre todo los de EXO, literalmente no tienen Encore malo! Mis favoritos son de Obsession, Love me right, Monster... Y más reciente su actuación en su Fanmeeting donde cantaron Let me in en vivo ❤.
La SM, a pesar de todo, tiene grandes artistas, voces de calidad y joyitas musicales; no es solo marketing.
@@Pos1t1veThinking Idk why I didn't get a noti for your reply🙄 these are 2 encores are awesome😆 just Shinee being their goofy selfs while devouring live vocals👑👏🏼 Thank you for sharing!💚💙💚
Luckily for us EXOLS, EXO Is still here to kick
@@Clau.7 En ese tiempo yo estaba en mi Anime y Emo Era no sabia del Kpop.🤣 Pero yo se que hubiera estado obsesionada con Shinee, pero el Universo me lo impidio vivirlo.🥲 Que bueno que tenemos UA-cam verdad 🙌🏼 No hay duda que los grupos de SM siempre van a tener buenos Encores, A mi tambien me gusto el de obsession, fue divertido como hicieron el relay 😆
Le Sserafim is becoming a group where I like the processed/pitch corrected songs alot but I would never pay to see them in concert. I can enjoy the music they put out because it's "fixed" and sounds good and their videos are entertaining but time and time again they are proving that their live vocals are mediocre sadly.
While yes there is more to being an idol than just vocals but vocals SHOULD still be a priority. When basically the entire group is struggling vocally then something is wrong. It's not that one member who is more a main dancer/stage presence person so that's what they bring to the performance while the other members focus more on the musical aspect...this is not a well balanced group in that case.
And this is why 2nd gen idols should be allowed the grace of 'live' stages because they've already proven themselves. They were really out here singing fatigued voices and all
Oh come on. EVERYONE can learn how to sing decently, especially a hand picked group of people who are being paid to be singers.
There is plenty of careers in dancing, modelling and acting for people who have other talents.
It's always NEVER the idols fault apparently. I hate how people are treating them like kids when most of them are adults. It's literally their job.
@@via45 it's honestly both the company and the idol as soon as the idol is established enough to be able to afford a singing teacher if the company doesn't care.
My mentally disabled, tone deaf sister is in a choir. Once a week. And she is (slowly) improving! If she can improve, so can a non-disabled idol who is getting PAID to do it full-time!!
@@NiveaCow true, but idol schedules are crazy and they probably won't make tim for singing lessons, which is annoying.
Lesserafim's fans are really trying their best to protect their idols. Instead of making their idols awared of their vocals, they literally went "because the song notes are low for Lesserafim". LOL
isnt it more insulting to imply their range is so limited that MIDDLE C isn’t within it 😭
I thought that lsf's extreme workout routine is for training their stamina for performing singing while dancing
I thought that too, but looks like at the end it just helped their dance 😅
It can for abs
Its just for their concept lol😂 they wanted the girls to have a matching image to their concept
Controversial but I will say it. I hate Yujin's vocal in this comeback. I know that that she is the strongest vocalist in this group but when hear her voice on videos when she is on the stage she sound so horrible so that sometimes I can't find the difference between her and Sakura's/Kazuha's singing. And to be honest (I have a feeling that she regressed.) Maybe It's just me, idk. But yeah, in this comeback only Chaewon sound good for me when she's on stage.
not only you. A lot of people use the "opera training" excuse to shut down any criticisms of Yunjin's singing. The thing is i don't think Yunjin has fully learned to adapt to pop music singing. Just because someone can sing a classical piece doesn't mean they can sing in every musical style. Let's look at dancing for instance Kazuha literally had to learn a whole new dance style because being an excellent ballet dancer doesn't mean you will be an excellent idol dancer obviously there are certain things you learn in one discipline that will help you in learning the other but it isn't enough imo.
@@mitchierainbow7353 Thank you for this comment. Really. Because sometimes when I read comments about her vocals I'm thinking: "Am I crazy? Why is everyone (literaly everyone) praising her for her "good and strong" vocals while I'm the only one who can't just listen to it". And about adaptation to pop music, I fully agree with you. She need more time and training to transition and get used to this style.
no I noticed it too, she sounds just as bad as the rest
She has regressed. She never had an excellent mix or mid register, but it was far stronger back in Produce. Her mix now is almost abysmal. Her head voice is what makes her climb up the vocal rankings
I feel like yunjin's classical training before debut has slowly been erasing itself, not because of pop vocal training ( lol what else can you expect from hybe), but because of minimal or no training/serious practice at all . Her classical sound is still there, but the technique feels worse. Is it just me who feels this way?
Notice that most live singing samples here are from SM entertainment artists. Legends. 😂
newbies will still say sm idols only lipsync 😂 like they cant do the same live
@@almilall Fact! 😂 But the truth is, SM artists can lipsync well because they can sing well. They know what facial expressions to show when lipsyncing because they actually show said facial expressions while singing it live themselves. One great example is Wendy lipsyncing to Chandelier. Like what?! Facial expressions on point! 😂
I always ALWAYS find it difficult to distinguish if SM artists are lipsyncing or not. 😅
That's the reason why i cant move on from exo they really are a gem
Yunjin came into her kpop debut with serious vocal chops and a lot of amazing potential. She had operatic training. It was a serious boon for her. But the longer she's in Le Sserafim the more she is going to lose that. They are not a group that focuses on vocals, and they will never be a strong vocal group even with age. They are all visuals and dance. That is the way they have been molded, which isn't their fault. They just don't have vocal training or support coming from their company.
Yo that thumbnail is gorgeous
it really bothered me tbh when sakura got upset because people criticized her singing. it just felt like she stopped trying because of those comments. sometimes back in 2nd and 3rd gen, even the weakest vocalists would have either a solo song or stage that showed their vocals. they would specifically choose a song that wasnt too difficult but suited their voice. i think of around you by loona hyunjin or kang minhyuk star or even when btob peniel sang im yours by jason mraz. even though they were prerecorded, it kind of helped with peoples impressions of their voices. thus, giving them more confidence. i think sakuras issue is her confidence mostly. if she believed in herself more to sing well, she might try harder. infinite sungyeol had the same problem. they dont need to be ailee level, but for sure just feel like they at least have the ability to improve.
This makes me think of when Soyeon was a judge/mentor on survival shows and she told nothing but the truth to trainees and the audience. She did not baby them whatsoever and one of the singers in her group on Fantasy boys improved a lot due to her criticism. The problem is that stans of some these groups baby them so much that when someone gives criticism, they see it as hate. And we know that the company will never suggest them getting training because it's hard to accept you've let someone without talent enter the industry
I agree that a dance based group can be a legitimate thing and not all groups absolutely need a standout jaw dropping vocalist but I don’t think it’s too much to ask of professional singer/dancers to improve to a level where they can sing on key when their parts are quite simple.
An example would be Irene and Yeri from Red Velvet. If you listened to them sing, you may be able to tell they are not the lead or main vocalist… but they are still on key and pleasant sounding. In Apink, aside from Eunji none are really outstanding singers, but they all sound fine. Same with Luna and F(x). Even looking at other dance based groups in the 4th generation… Itzy is not bad when singing standing still.
For those who say all lipsync all the time standards hurts nobody…. It does. I think it does. It hurts idol trainees who are good at singing, but are relatively weak in dancing. It’s harder for them to get a spot, and if they do they get bashed more than the idols who are good dancers and terrible singers- an example is Aespa’s Giselle. Her rapping and singing are at a pretty good level but she’s a bit weak at dancing. She gets criticized so much for being a liability to the group by non fans/antis. A gif of unskilled dancing is much easier to disseminate than a 20-30 second video of bad singing.
I think for LSF specifically people do feel a bit disappointed with vocals because they had expectation and their best singers are lackluster. Their fans hype Yunjin as an “opera singer” despite her never even being the level of a singer training at a conservatory let alone an actual opera singer. They also fail to consider how one style of singing translates to another. Furthermore she seems to have regressed since PD48. And as for Chaewon, she is a pretty good singer but her vocals are not impressive. The other three are noticeably weak. They don’t have an Eunji or Luna, and their weakest links are weaker than other groups weaker members have been.
Yunjin’s “opera” experience is her performing Phantom of the Opera as part of her American high school’s musical theater program.
Y'all don't know how happy I am to stan and love everything NMIXX does. They're such a gem ❤
Also, about the comment of who is to blame, the idols or the company, I personally believe is both of them AND the fans.
I blame the idols to some extent because they could hire their own vocal coaches and improve on their own. Even in Lesserafim's generation they are idols who train outside of their company, and example would be some Stray Kids members, so they perfectly could if they wanted to.
And primarily is the company's fault and the fans. Most fans don't really care about vocals that much, if an idol sound bad on stage they will find every excuse to justify them. There was a video I watched some time ago about autotune in Kpop and they made an interesting point when they brought up Girls Planet 999 and Kep1er. Only two of the selected members for Kep1er are vocalist (Chaehyun and Youngeun), the rest of them are dancers, rappers or mostly performers.
So why should a company invest in vocal training for their idols if clearly a lot of fans don't really care about that? Hybe only needs to invest in their idols stage presence and dancing abilities, because fans especially in this generations really love crazy choreograpies and dance breaks. People can critique Lesserafim all they want, because the moment Lesserafim does another crazy dance break for a performance everyone will go crazy, so vocal training is not required for them.
At this point, with the backlash they've been receiving, even a bone-breaking choreo next comeback won't save them if their vocals stays the same. Netizens are starting to lose patience at their poor singing ability.
This is how I feel - encore stages are meant to be fun, Im happy to see idols having fun during them, but I also expect at least decent vocals too (I dont expect who knows what) in general. So while if the vocals aren't good, at least I hope for them to make the stage fun somehow.
This remind me about TEN’s Nightwalker stage on Lee Hyori’s red carpet. He manage to live sing using hand mix without backing track while giving 100% hard dancing performance. His vocal glow up was impressive too bad we don't get to see him in encore stage.
Lee Hyori's is post-production not live
Encore stages are painful to watch sometimes because some of the idols neither sing good or at least look like they are having fun at all and its so awkward to watch them stand around nervously looking so stressed to sing THEIR OWN SONG😭
imagine not hitting your notes whilst standing STILL lol
I feel like there's definitely a balance to be struck. I don't think it's necessary for every idol to be the best of the best vocally - I think allowing for natural talent to develop and grow throughout their career is perfectly acceptable, and I would even argue good, because it means that people without training can still have a chance to enter the industry on natural talent alone. But I think it needs to be fostered and grown instead of allowed to stagnate. And if you have a dancer, then a grasp of the basics should be present. Again, it's okay if they aren't perfect! Especially since it wouldn't be their main focus. But a grasp of how to hold a note would be ideal. And just like you said, I don't know whose fault it is - the companies, the idols, a combo? No clue. But I would like to go back to being excited about, for example, a really beautiful high note that's in the song, and seeing it done live knowing that it'll be at least somewhere close to how it sounds on their album, instead of worrying that they won't be able to reach it at all.
I agree with everything!!
being skinny and cute get some people way too far in the entertainment industry
I won't lie I thought this video was going to feel redundant in regards to your original video on Encore stages. But I was proven wrong I respect the fresh take and distinct commentary on a subject we've discussed already in the past. Great stuff
Also Haewon's voice crack was sooo cute
People were hating itzy back then for not having strong vocals, but they at least can sing their own songs live with very little issue while giving 100% energy on everything else. Novody told these idols they need to be the Beyonce of Kpop
I always look forward to encore stages, they help me determine if I want to see the artist at a concert. I’m not paying over 200+ for a concert where it’s 30% actual singing and 70% running around.
I feel like is both the idol's and the company fault. Why? well let's take Sakura's case for example, she has been in the industry for 10+ years but there hasn't been any improvement. I blame hybe for not given her (and the whole group) proper vocal lessons but I also blame her, because if she has time for crocheting (a very time-consuming hobby) why can't she spare some of that time to go and take some lessons? But if we are being realistic most of these idols would never improve due to their fans always making up excuses for their poor performance. As long as their keep making numbers, then it doesn't matter if their are good
Yeah if they make money anyway the company won't care to improve their skills, but I don't think it's fair to use the 10-year thing as something against her. Her time in akb48 as jpop idol didn't really put any importance in vocals and more on being a fun entertainer so it makes sense why she doesn't know that much about vocals.
Not everyone can sing WELL. That's the fact. But what's disappointing about Le Sserafim is when I listen to their encores, they are like completely different songs. Making me think how heavy the recordings were edited in the studio to come up with decent vocals for their songs.
If you’re an idol, that is your job. If you cannot sing well, then why be an idol? Just be a dancer or a model
“They’re just having fun” girl go look at Queencard encores. If ‘fun’ was your excuse, then queencards encores are a perfect example of fun while having good vocals. Queencard is more vocally challenging than Easy and the members have SO MUCH CHAOS AND FUN while having a great encore!!
Mamamoo are a good example for this too.
@@hitmehardand_soft true
Itzy, Nmixx and Blackpink for ggs and TXT, Ateez and Stray kids for bg
@@ManduJendukie if ur including itzy and bp then u can fs include gidle -
@@kenmakozume7130 yeah i forgot
The thing is its both the idol and company's fault because almost every k-pop group in hybe has a member that either strains their voice, cant keep up with pitch or has bad breath control, and clearly they arent doing enough vocal training but at the same time the idol a;sp has responsibility take for example baekhyun, he personally sort out vocal lessons because he wanted to improve. Theres no was a company is going to stop there idols from paying for vocal lessons. Both have fault in this.
I think if someone want to be called kpop idol or artist, he or she should be musician - singer, rapper or major instrument player. Not just dancer or sensual visual position.
After that, fans and artists are building trust. We are getting less and less chance to hear real raw singing but they need to show us atleast they are trying. We dont question good teams not singing or failing couple times.
Fans get so defensive over sakura when people state that her vocals haven’t improved… but isn’t that embarrassing for you as a fan that someone you support has been in the K-pop industry for 5-6 years now and still sings like she’s see a middle school performance???that’s literally her job! No one’s expectating her to all of a sudden become Ailee, but where’s the improvement? I refuse to believe that she doesn’t have enough power or agency to ask for or get vocal lessons for herself when she was scouted by the company. The best example of 4th gen encore stages is nmixx
I feel bad for those idols who fought back then with live singing and great vocals trying to make Kpop a serious thing and not just dancing and looking good
Honestly, I was more surprised about how Yunjin also sounded off. I know she is a good vocalist but I would not have guessed it, from that stage alone. Makes me think that the song simply has too much autotune to sound good/the same without it.
Is this just me that think hybe stans are hypocrites in here
They really are.
The focus has gone from more well rounded Idols to a dance contest. Vocals are just an afterthought. You don't even have to be passable as a vocalist anymore in the industry because all of the imperfections are smoothed over in the radio edit and lip syncing went from being done in some occasions to nearly all of them, even when they're JUST SITTING THERE. No dancing, just sitting in a freaking chair, and they STILL lip sync. Vocal stability is no longer a requirement for companies-if you look pretty and dance well enough, you can be an Idol. I've become so disillusioned with the industry itself that if not for my loyalty to Dreamcatcher I would probably just stop following it altogether.
It's 50/50, I'd say it's still mostly on the company. You shouldn't debut somebody who just can't sing but at the same time, the idols themselves need to start looking for help elsewhere if needed. If Taemin did it, you can do it too. After learning a bit more about J-Pop training, I honestly feel bad about Sakura. 7 years singing with no training is bound to destroy your voice but still she needs to do something about it, they all do.
6:05 you need to also include SHINee's Replay and Love like Oxygen (literally, in their debut year) live performances when they sang 100% live even singing the backtrack also 😂
Thing is, the term IDOL was coined because the IDOL was good at singing and dancing, and had great charisma and stage presence. The "idols" now can barely sing. They're just glorified backup dancers.
What's sad and pathetic are the idols who look frightened during the encore stages. They just know they didn't put in the work to sound at the very least, decent.
Agree hating on them is not the solution because it's affect their confidance, i think that fan who know a bare minimum on vocal should alert the idols but not agressive way but more in educational and caring way and praise them when they improve
As i said it's mostly the problem of the agencies, in case of Hybe they don't invest at all in vocal and their only chance to improve really is to think to recieve advises from their friend idols, their seniors or benevolent fans, they can br aware of what they need and hire vocal coach outside hybe.
Hybe i don't think they really care about vocal technique, all they want is that a high voice that please fan otherwise their wouldn't let Jimin damage his voice during 9 years and V wouldn't be scoled for not singing with a high tone (in an interview he was praised for his low tone and was asked if he had tips for his low tone, he shyly smiled and explained that he used to be scoled by their vocal coach for not singing high)
By the way i want ask you something, i specify that i'm not vocaly trained but : when try to hit the lowest note that i can, when i say O i go lower than when i say A, when say O i can go down to B2 while for A the lowest is D3
Can you explaine me why is that ?
Imo, vocals hold greater importance than dance. It's crucial to prioritize confident vocal abilities over dance skills.
I enjoy live shows because it’s never the same song performed identically and that’s what music is about. The variation that can be reached without a lot of struggle, only different emotion and energy by the performers and the crowd itself.
I don’t expect all K-pop idols to have 2NE1, TVXQ, Girl’s Gen, Mamamoo, Dreamcatcher, NMIXX levels of live singing. BUT they should be able to carry a tune confidently while they’re just STANDING OR SITTING as they sing. Plus, if the backtrack or background music fails, you can still perform if you can sing. If the background music fails and your vocals suck, I don’t think your dance skills alone are enough to carry your performance. (Like, I recently saw a video where HwaSa’s backtrack stopped near the end of her song but she and her dancers still continued the performance because SHE SANG THE SONG so the dance was still on time.)
Please, k-pop idols and their companies, please lend time for more vocal training 😭
Not me just listening to run for roses in the back😭😭
The fault lies with HYBE. It's literally their job to ensure their groups can sing the songs given to them. Instead they choose to do heavy vocal processing. Personally, I no longer have high expectations for vocal abilities in kpop, so if I like the song I will stream it. However, the likelihood of me being invested enough to go to concerts decreases.
I was curious about your opinon regarding this particular encore stage and as always I wasn't disappointed. You're always on point when it comes to analizing vocal issues, I love it. I think idols should know the basics when it comes to singing live and it's frustrating to hear them sound bad (especially Yoon Jin who received vocal training as an opera singer). But let's be honest being an idol isn't an easy job, so let's not overreact
Yunjin was never operatically trained. She sang a role in Phantom of the Opera while she was still a musical theatre student, but she's not a classically trained singer. She's not a particularly skilled vocalist, and LSF's songs don't align with her strengths either.
Thank you for saying that!😊
@@floralglitch I agree. Still she received vocal training, so she should know the basics
The only channel on youtube that actually acknowledge good vocals and especially EXO..others are just delulu
While companies neglect should be called out, idols also can’t be blameless. When something goes wrong for a group whether it’s encores, fashion, etc it’s the companies fault, but what happens when they do well? Of course, I’m against witch hunts. I just mean that people should be consistent. IMO scandals can’t always be towards only the company and praise reserved only for idols. I’m just tired of some people shielding idols by using companies as a scapegoat for everything. All sides including idols, companies, and even fans need to take accountability when applicable.
the thing I notice is: only main vocals continue to get regular training as they love singing in general. some idols just do not practice at all or just don’t want to because nowadays a pretty face is all that matters to gain attention
@@goldenhourss yes! People in groups can have varying roles and interests which is fine but solid foundations in basic skills is so important to support the group as a whole. Also, personality hires, networks exist in every field but entertainment has always been a industry where a person's looks matter to the degree of impacting revenue - best-selling photocards, viral fancams, the visual position. It matters so much looks often overshadow talent. People give more chances to beautiful people to THEN look at their skills but rarely the other way around. I feel like it's gotten worse with social media skewing people standards to unreasonable degrees. Idols feel the pressure to live up to that.
kpop sells ALBUMS with SONGS, if you cant hold a tune when standing, you are not a singer, youre just an entertainer or a dancer with fame privilege
What I don’t like is the hypocrisy Fearnots have. They dragged IVE or more recently Wendy for bad vocals, but when LSF do sound bad themselves they pull up the “encores are supposed to be fun” card. At least hold your own faves accountable since you have no trouble dragging other group who have/had the same problem your group always seem to struggle with.
Average person who sings for fun has better vocals
I think you made a really hot point touching on hope nowadays most stages are edited. It puts a false sense of relief if fans especially newer fans, think that idols should sound exactly like in the recordings, when that’s not usually the case. When you’re not used to hearing a live stage you’d think that they sound bad because they don’t sound like they “ate the cd”.
I don't care if people don't care about vocals, i just want the treatment to be fair, if you are gonna excuse this? You better not be hating on idols who are WAY better. They attack everyone.
Thank you, really well-made video. Kpop is getting so underwhelming and the vocal standard has hit the rock bottom. It aches me to watch this regress as I was raised on 3rd gen kpop, especially Red Velvet.
Red Velvet girls have not raised the bar too high, they made it just right. I am never going to change my mind on that RV’s non-vocal line is the absolute vocal ability bare minimum an idol should have. Honestly, I’ve started doubting if idols such as Sakura even have an ear for music? I love LESSERAFIM’s discography but I am never going to settle for less than F tier vocalists (please don’t bash me for bringing these up) in MUSIC INDUSTRY as well as for certain groups consisting in majority of “vocalists” of this miserable calibre.