Alex and his community's mindset towards the sequel trilogy is : You liked it? Good for you! You don't like it? Thats fine too. His community is made of people with different opinions (Something rare in Star Wars) that respects one another because we've actually grown and matured since the first time we watched Star Wars. He made a safe corner free from the nonsense the general Star Wars community is infamous for. Thank you Alex and Mollie
That's what I like about Star Wars Explained. I feel like lots of "Star Wars UA-camrs" out there are really political grifters. Making mountains out of molehills.
Further to your point, Palpatine literally made a career off of fomenting conflict. He made sure various parties were so distracted/focused on other things, no one ever had the time to step back and see him pulling the strings from the shadows. Whenever one side of a conflict won out, he would then swoop in and either take over or destroy them, since half of his would-be opposition had just been eliminated for him.
Its very similar to Dooku and Anakin fighting in the sense that it’s a win-win for Palpatine. If Dooku wins, Anakin wasn’t worthy of being Palps apprentice anyway and thus ‘the chosen one’ wouldn’t be anything to worry about anymore. but if (and when) Anakin wins he is able to rise (or fall, I suppose) to the mantle of the Sith. Either way, Palps has the strongest apprentice
fightingfalcon777 Exactly. Setting others against one another is a skill that Palpatine has mastered throughout the saga. Hell, that was the whole reason for the clone war in the first place.
Also by always having another potential apprentice in the wings to kill the current one, he ensures that none of them attain the mastery needed to kill him.
Well, the novelization for "Revenge of the Sith" claims that Dooku planned to lose on purpose to Anakin and play the fall guy to spend the rest of his life in captivity. He just didn't expect to be legitimately defeated by Anakin, nor did he expect his master to order his execution after he lost. I don't know how much of the unique content of that novelization is still canon, though. The novelization for the original "Star Wars" movie has certainly been retconned to h*** and back over the years.
This is how I've always seen it. Palpatine was pitting Rey and Kylo against each other to see who would come out on top and whoever did would be his prime vessel. It's possible Snoke had some autonomy of his own and wasn't a literally puppet. He was certainly influenced by Sidious on Exegol but I'm not sure to what extent. Snoke might not have known who Rey actually was. Ultimately whether Snoke could think for himself or was literally a puppet Sidious was controlling doesn't change his purpose but it is still interesting.
@@MrRba122 Because at the time he was meant to be Plagueis. I still have no doubt about that. But in retrospect, we could say it's technically because he's Palpatine, albeit in clone form, rotting away unable to possess his force power for much longer.
My head canon is Snoke was a placeholder apprentice Palaptine created to do his bidding while he was too weak to leave Exegol due to his decaying clone vessels. I see him as a lesser Maul or Dooku or Vader. Completely my own head canon, but I like to think he had autonomy instead of being a meat puppet.
@@chase138 I think the Filoniverse shows have a good chance of ultimately proving that true. We're already re-introducing the mountain cloning base from Legends, so we're going to be shown how the contingency plan ultimately turned into Palpatine returning. Along the way, we're bound to see Snoke's origins.
Palpatine was looking to replace Vader with Luke in Episode 6 too. Even back then before any of the EU or Disney reboot canon, he was pitting potential heirs against one another.
And even in legends clones were never a viable option because the Force can only be used by living beings, and Palps' clones were just meat suits that were dependent of how strong he already is, not to mention Dark Side Degradation in general.
Except that as soon as he knew there was a Skywalker heir, they were searching for Luke. So it was clearly a high priority. And if both Vader and Luke died somehow, he still had his own body to continue living in. In the convoluted sequels, Snoke had Kylo as his apprentice for quite a while, and despite having all of Snoke's resources at his disposal, didn't make more of an effort to find Rey. So it makes no sense.
@@randalthekidd7006 A lot of thought went into the PT and OT. Very little thought when into the sequels. And even less thought from the people defending the sequels by trying to draw weak comparisons with Lucas' movies as proof that the sequels are consistent. The reason TROS is even more boring than the other sequels, is Palpatine parachutes in from nowhere, and we are supposed to care about his interest in other characters he never saw.
@@Ruylopez778 Well, they didn't even know Rey existed until Kylo encountered her on Takodana, While Palpatine knew a clone son had escaped at some point, he had little reason to think it had resulted in another potential vessel for him to chase after until that point.
I always felt that Snoke went rogue from Palpatine's plan. Snoke feels like someone with a major inferiority complex, likely the result of being a failed clone, so he sought to rule the galaxy himself. Snoke took advantage of the post-war chaos to rise and become the leader of the First Order. Like Yoda did with Luke, Snoke kept an eye on Rey from afar and didn't like what he saw. Snoke sensed Rey had "the spirit of a true Jedi", a judgement vindicated when they finally met. Snoke instead sought out a powerful apprentice that he could still control. Ben Solo, with his "conflicted soul", was the perfect solution for Snoke: his own Vader. And Snoke very nearly succeeded. Starkiller Base served its purpose and decimated the New Republic. He was on the precipice of destroying the Jedi Order and the Resistance. He dreamed of killing Rey, Luke and Leia all in one triumphant day. Yet he underestimated Ben Solo. Much like Palpatine, his overconfidence in his apprentice proved to be his downfall. Snoke going off on his own and almost winning it all is a much richer story than just being Palpatine's puppet. I hope someday Lucasfilm realizes this
@@jacobberg373 Eh, he's more like a bishop. He's more powerful and worth more than a pawn, but he's still easily sacrificed to clear the way for a pawn to be promoted to queen.
I’m with you in that I don’t care for Palpatine’s return, but I 100% appreciate everything you do to make sense of all the convolution to make the stories better. Even though most don’t like it, the stories are canon. So let’s make the most of them.
Yep. JJ seemed to just steamroll through Star Wars sense. Good thing we have people like Filoni, Favreau, Soule, etc. to play clean up and try to get the pieces to fit. And we have Star Wars Explained to wrap all up and give his takes! It’s canon if we like it or not, but we got a great clean up crew!
i dont have anything against trying to make the story better but i hate that it is needed. No one of the fans is in the wrong for wanting star wars to be good, to make sense in my opinion but i hate it if fan theories and explanations are used to defend the horrible mess that disney made when they did what they did to star wars.
Well according to Canon there were multiple clones of palpatine, like his "son" Rey's father so of they where useless to him he would kill them off. He would do the same easily to his granddaughter if she failed also.
His purpose was to find a vessel to inherit his power. But for that he needed a powerful enough vessel. If they couldn't cut it, it was back to square one. But they cut it... Snoke, that is. They cut it in half. And Palpatine smiled.
Yeah. He can't claim to have a powerful apprentice if he can't defeat a powerful foe. He pushes him to the limit because if he is not powerful enough, he is useless.
Alex I apologize for all of the people commenting things on this video despite you clarifying at the beginning of the video. You do great work, and thank you for keeping it up!
Sith Ghosts are impossible within Canon for their very nature goes against the Force itself. Darth Bane wasn't a sith ghost, he was simply an illusion that didn't really exist as Yoda stated within that episode.
The only reason Sidious tests Vader is because he didn’t know he’d burn on Mustafar. Before that he is at peace with the idea of Vader killing him, in fact he can’t wait for it. That’s why he tells Yoda: “Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us” he had always wanted Anakin as his apprentice more than Maul or Dooku.
The cool thing (for now, I guess), is that there isn't really a "canon" answer to the question, so your hypothesis is equally as valid (at least until Palpatine exposits about it somewhere or the writer of Rise of Skywalker does more JK Rowling-style retroactive writing).
I'm happy we even got Palpatine at all in 9 but I agree, he should have been revealed in 8. I hope future seasons of the live action shows give more light to how the First Order rose and how Palpatine pulled the strings.
@@randalthekidd7006 Openly retconning? Then why was Canto Bight referenced in the Mandalorian or the increased focus on cloning in many of these new shows which all point directly to Palpatine's return. Get real, the Sequel Trilogy is as Star Wars as the Prequel and Orginial Trilogies are.
I don't think Rey was really a backup until later during "Rise". Ben was probably always priority 1 since Papa Palpatine wasn't aware of Rey until she beat Ben on Starkiller, at the earliest. And there's so little time between Eps 7 and 8 that I'm not sure she figured much into his plan other than to make Ben fall further. Either he killed his master or the girl he liked.
That’s exactly the best way to look at those things. These movies are what we have. We can either keep looking for more mistakes to complain about or search for new ways to accept and then appreciate them. ❤️
In short: 1) Snoke probably didn't even know he was Palpatine's creation (from "The Star Wars Book"), so his decisions are not necessarily Palpatine's. 2) After many failed experiments, Palpatine finds out about Rey and sends Ochi to capture her. Ochi fails. 3) Palpatine shifts his attention to Ben, and uses Snoke to turn him to the Dark Side. Up until Kylo's redemption this was always Palpatine's plan, to have Ben as his vessel. We know this because when Ben turns back to the light thanks to Leia's intervention, Palpatine tells Pryde "The princess of Alderaan has disrupted my plans". 4) After Kylo's turn, Palpatine goes back to the original plan: use Rey as his vessel. When he tells Rey "I never wanted you dead", that's both truth and lie. At first he didn't want her dead, he sent Ochi to retrieve her. Of course, later he ordered Kylo to kill her. 5) Regarding the Dyad, I don't think we ever got a clear explanation if Snoke actually knew they were a Dyad. He just says that he bridged their minds, but nothing else. Also, he didn't create the Dyad, because Ben and Rey always have been (seen in Rise of Kylo Ren comic). But even if Snoke knew they were a Dyad, he is not really a puppet of Palpatine's, that's why the Emperor didn't know about that.
@@randalthekidd7006 You feel smarter after that? OF COURSE the Sequel Trilogy is a huuuuge mess. I was just working with the after-the-movie information we got.
@@KatiaBarga It makes sense. Snoke says the confrontation with your father has left you shattered. So if he now kills Rey with whom Snoke/Palps knows/set up their Forcetiming sessions, and probably can feel the connection/love toward one another, then even more of a path to the Darside if he kills her at some point. Or knowing that Rey has his blood in her, ergo her affinity to the Darkside, then her killing Kylo or joining him, being then filled with more Darkside energy, would be enough to possess her body. I agree, yes a retcon and I wish they set this up more in VII and VIII but it certainly fits well. Hell the prequels only fit well because of the clone wars series. We need an animated Post Mando animated series with young Kylo and Luke voiced by Hamil before his voice gets too gravely from age.
It hate how rare it is for people to respect each other's opinions in this community. Star Wars explained is one of the few non toxic SW channel and I'm so grateful for it's existence.
@@danieldickson3215 He wanted to become Chancellor of The Republic so he could orchestrate The Clone Wars on that side while Dooku did it for him on the other
having recently gone through the Bane trilogy on Audible, these motivations for Palpatine sound almost word-for-word like quotes Bane says to Zannah or Zannah says to the people she takes on as apprentices. “If she does she wasn’t worthy, if he revolts he’s a perfect host” very much sounds like a sentence Darth Bane would say in the final book as he’s looking for a new vessel. Love how even in the new canon, Sith feel like Sith. Disney gets a little bit too much criticism in their handling of the franchise.
This video should be on that site that did that blog about it kind of weird almost 2 years later but ?? Alex is the true guru nerd encyclopedia of Star Wars and that’s awesome
TLDW: It’s Palpatine, bastard has a million dentures and hyperdrives just in case he might need one, hell it wouldn’t surprise me if he had a coaxium stash/refinery in his palace just in case
I think that another factor is that we don't know how much exactly Palpatine controlled Snoke and how much Snoke knew about Palpatine's plans. I mean did he controlled him like a puppet, did he "just" manipulated him like he did e.g. Anakin or was it something in between? Because it's also possible that Snoke had some kind of free will and wanted to kill Rey either out of jealousy, hatred for Palpatine or because Snoke simply wanted to become Palpatine's new enforcer.
One thing I never understood about Palpatine is that he was ALWAYS pitting apprentices against each other and sending a never ending stream of challengers against his "current" apprentice. But surely he knew the Rule of Two and eventually the apprentice would replace him. Why bother finding the strongest apprentice when he must know that he will eventually be the one to kill him?
Palps has always been arrogant. To me he always thought he was special, and that the Rule of Two would never apply exactly to him (as in, no mere apprentice could challenge him directly).
giving his apprentices challengers does make them stronger, but it also distracts them from turning on Palpatine. keeping them constantly busy proving themselves is really smart on Palpatine's part bc that energy and time can't be used on plotting against him
@@StalinMario But that doesn't mean that his plan is genius when you think about it. In reality this plan would have never worked out because there were too many red flags. Everything is based on "Oh, Palpatine manipulated their mind and that's why they're stupid and Palpatine could foresee everything". This plan would have been more logical if people would just say that 80% of his plan was based on luck and hoping it's gonna go out well. I don't want to say that Palpatine's plan in the sequels is great. But people can't complain about that plan but then just ignore all the obvious flaws in his plan in the prequels. But yes, I forgot, the prequels are the best thing since the comeback of Jesus Christ.
What exactly is so convoluted about his plans in the prequels? He played two sides against each other which is something that's happened in reality throughout history.
I don’t know why this need to be explain. How on earth people have not understood that ? When she was a child Palpatine wanted to bring back Rey because he could transform her into a sith with no efforts. Later at the beginning of 9 she was already a trained Jedi so he wanted Kylo to kill her because she was a danger to him. But when Ben returned he literally said to Pryde that he needed to change his plan. So he decided to make Rey believe that he always wanted her by his side. And Snoke wanted to kill her because it was at the time where she was a menace to him and that Kylo was still on the dark side. Simple as that.
I always thought this was rather apparent. When Rey vanished, he turned his attention to Ben. When Rey reappeared, he now had two potential options for a successor. Whether one killed the other would only determine which one would be his true heir. In the case of Snoke, this also retroactively goes back to "The Force Awakens". When Snoke told Ben to bring Rey to him, he could very well have realized the girl was Palpatine's granddaughter.
I always just thought palpatine wanted either kylo or rey as an heir. I mean wasn't it stated that snoke was sort of a test for kylo to see if he was clever enough to be a sith or something?
"Maul, a skilled fighter, but little more, cut down and then surpassed. A disappointment. Dooku, too old, held back by a few 'noble' ideals. A temporary tool. Vader, infinite power, grounds for immense hatred, but broken just before he was ready. A tragedy. Skywalker, the spiting image of his father, placed on the cusp of greatness, but too stupid and afraid to seize it. A waste. Kylo Ren, a neglected soul with a strong back, given everything he needed, but was too weak of will to keep it. A farce. Rey, strong blood, self-reliant, filled with anger - the building blocks of the perfect Sith." - Darth Sidious, to himself, probably. (Not a lot of people to talk to on Exegol.)
Dude, this both describes all these characters perfectly and keeps it within Palpatine's own twisted viewpoint. This is very good writing and I suggest that you continue doing so.
Also I'll be honest I low-key kinda wanna see a what if with palpy actually succeeding in getting Rey's body and then awkward weird palpy moments of him trying to adapt to being a woman lmao Like He gets his first period and is like "Ive never felt such pure hatred befooorre" Would have been gold
I won hundred percent agree with you Alex. Additionally, I think whoever would have one that duel, would have been pushed further to the Darkside. Thus making whoever that was a better apprentice/conduit
Palpatine was a master at creating win-win situations for himself. Alex, you beat all around the bush, and almost stated it outright. Pitting one potential apprentice against another was just one example. The entire Clone War was a win-win for the Sith, and lose-lose for the Jedi. If the Jedi had not engaged in The Clone War, then they would have been viewed as turning their back on the galaxy. By engaging in warfare, the Jedi turned their back on their own heritage with the Force.
Totally agree, that's the way I looked at it (although it's 100% headcanon, tbh). I have more of an issue with Palpatine not knowing the whole dyad thing despite Snoke supposedly creating it to begin with.
George backpedaled a lot and made new ideas that didn't stay consistent with the films before in both the OT and PT. It's a common flaw of the franchise.
I'm surprised that you didn't mention how Paplpatine in such a fashion tried to replace Vader with Luke in Return of the Jedi. Also, could you make a video to try to answer the question of whether snoke was either Palpatine’s puppet or servant
Your opinions and thoughts are exactly why I love your channel. You may not like the choices in the Disney Star Wars world but you still have a respectful and open minded discussion. Thank you for being you!
What if snoke orchestrated all of that to spay Palpatine? That would make sense Palpatines apprentices like Darth Mall the clone wars and also Dooku did.
I'm starting to think that Palpatine's whole plan was to have Rey kill Kylo. The idea was basically turn Ben Solo to neutralize Luke, then let Rey kill Ben, ridding of the Skywalkers once and for all. Rey was supposed to kill him on the Death Star, but heals him instead and then Leia turns him back...hence the line about the Princess of Alderaan spoiling his plan. It's Ben's arrival on Exigol that gives her the strength to resist him in the end and leads to his own defeat.
There's also an explanation as to why he didn't just make a younger clone of himself, the Force can only be used by living beings, this is why Palpatine was eager to replace Vader with Luke, for as powerful as Vader was, he was handicaped in the Force, he was never gonna be more powerful than how we see him as Vader. Its also fitting that Palpatine's quest for power consumes and withers him away.
For all the colossal issues I have had with the sequel trilogy, I have to say that it’s growing on me over time. There are also a lot of really great points made in this video about the Rule of 2 and how it pertains to Snoke that I never thought of before.
Personally I'd just want them to expand & redeem Finn's character post-TROS and explain Palpatine's return more. Then I don't mind the trilogy. I enjoy them *(at least the first two)* more than the prequels at least.
I really liked Force Awakens & Last Jedi, but I was having serious issues with TROS…until I read the novelization. Alex had mentioned it in a couple of videos, and honestly it made all the difference for me.
This is how I always saw it, but you explain it a lot better than I can XD. His character in this film is still consistent with his character in the rest of the films, books, shows, and comics. He did the same thing with Anakin and Dooku in Revenge of the Sith (iirc it's explained in the novel that the whole fight onboard the Invisible Hand was manufactured by Palpatine to be a test for Anakin) and then later with Vader and Luke in Return of the Jedi, he doesn't care who wins, so long as the victor is the one standing at his side in the end. In the case of TROS, like you said, he's seeing who is more suitable to be the vessel of his spirit. And I also have the same sentiment, I don't 100% agree with what they did with the sequels, but I still like to piece everything together and make it make sense for myself. Like I'd try to make sense of it and people will be like "There's no use in making sense of it, you're wasting your breath", at the end of the day, it's still Star Wars, and regardless of how I feel about it, I'll except it for what it is, and if it doesn't make sense I'll try to make it make sense, just for my own closure. And like you said, the Sequel Trilogy is not the only part of Star Wars that's convoluted, Star Wars as a whole is. Anyways, rant over XD
Thank you for this!! I know this twist wasn’t your favorite but I appreciate the good faith analysis you presented in your vid. Not enough people do that with the sequel trilogy and it’s a real bummer for me because these films are my favorites. I think a lot of criticism about them is rather shallow, unfair, and very narrowly focused. If you look at any SW movie long enough, you can easily pick out things to criticize. I loved Palp’s return and the subsequent recontextualization of the ST and entire Skywalker saga into a story about the Skywalkers vs the Palpatines. I also think they’ve done a pretty good job of tying up lose ends and connecting the dots with recent blogs/articles, comics, and books.
I agree with you 100%. I was under the impression that he also considered having Ben as an heir. Hence "kill the girl, end the Jedi and become what your grandfather Vader could not. You will rule all the galaxy as the new emperor." Whoever won would become the emperor, as Palpatine put Anakin against Dooku, and Vader against other potential apprentices. Thank you for looking at the movies with the same consistency!!
I love this channel and how you guys work hard to connect the dots of an often convoluted story. I can't get past the reality that Disney didn't have a plan for this trilogy but I honestly appreciate you doing the work Disney should have done.
Another great video with some good reasoning behind it. I think you are 100% correct on your take, especially given the information we have regarding this question at this moment in time. Thanks!
Not to mention, Palpatine never really says that he explicitly needed Rey for the ritual in Episode 9 anyway, so he absolutely would have done the same thing to Kylo. In fact, if you completely take the "She's a Palpatine" thing out of the plot, the movie would not fundamentally change. Palpatine basically just says he needs to be struck down in hate, presumably by a Sith minded person, for his spirit transfer thing to work. He doesn't explicitly need blood relation. Its literally just a Sith thing.
It makes sense that so many plots are centered around Palps testing Vader. From a narrative perspective who else _could_ test him? He's the emperor of the galaxy's pet, not quite second in command, but definitely very few that could get away with questioning or even out ranking him. He's also the most powerful force user active (note: active) in the galaxy aside from his boss. So just for the sake of writing a story there aren't many normal situations Vader could run into that would truly push him to his limits. So those situations basically have to be manufactured by Palpatine. Until Luke and Obi-Wan popped up and he had _real_ problems.
looking back on this topic, since we know a bit more now on all the stuff with snoke and palpatine, by my understanding the way it all worked was like this: once palpatine died and possessed the clone body and realized its too frail and not gonna work, he started working on a successor, his overall goal is a new functioning body in the short term, and immortality and galactic rule in the long term. there were many other attempts at cloning beyond the body he actually used, but none truly worked. he had at least 2 clones that were kinda successful but not good enough for him to actually use as a replacement body/Vessel. one was Snoke, who was super strong with the force but physically way too frail. if this current body he was in wasn't going to work, no way Snoke's was. so Snoke was used as a puppet; to what degree Snoke was independent from palpatine is unclear, but he was at minimum controlled and influenced by palpatine in a subconscious way. whether that be by dark side force magic or clone mental programing or some combination there of hasn't been clearly stated but the how isn't super important, just that he was. through snoke there was indirect control of the first order, the main most powerful imperial remnant out in the galaxy. the other kinda successful clone was a perfectly healthy human with 0 force sensitivity. healthy body but no magic; the opposite problem of snoke. this was palpatine's "Son." he was definitely his own person outside palpatine's direct control, unlike Snoke. this "son" then got out of there, and they let him go, but the sith eternals were gonna try and keep an eye on him. the reason palpatine and the sith eternal cult let him go was essentially a back up plan, if he eventually has a family, maybe his kid could be a proper successor and vessel if the main plan doesn't work out. said main plan was using snoke to take control of the growing first order and eventually find an apprentice that can be palpatine's successor and new functioning body. the first order would grow, and in time eventually merge with palpatine's slowly building super weapon fleet to then take control of the Galaxy again, meanwhile Palpatine and Snoke found this successor in Ben and thus pushed him to the dark side and stuff; that was Plan A. have Ben fully fall to the dark side, kill his master like any Sith does eventually, and when the time came he'd be led to exogol so palpatine can use him as a vessel. meanwhile Plan B had a bit of a wrench thrown into it when Palpatines son did have a family, but successfully hid them, specifically his Kid, from the Sith Eternals. so all in on Plan A. then, years later Rey shows up and gets roped into this, and now Plan B is back on the table. so with Snoke dead and kylo on the dark side, and the Fleet ready to go; since both plans are in play, he sets his two possible successors against each other, by revealing himself then telling Kylo to kill Rey. if he successfully kills her, then his fall to the darkside is complete and palpatine can get to work on the possession ritual thing. and if Rey strikes Kylo down instead then her fall to the darkside truely begins and he can corrupt her instead and do the possession ritual thing with her. but then Kylo goes back to being Ben Solo and Rey doesn't actually strike him down, healing him instead. but Rey still does go to Exogol, so palpatine begins trying to manipulate her into joining him but it ends up not working, and then Ben shows up and they stand against him together. then palpatine recognizes just what kind of force bond is going on between these two, and goes "Ah ha! PLAN C!" and instead of doing the ritual thing to get a new body, he begins draining their power and life away and makes this frail, unstable, and weak clone body actually work properly. after absorbing a lot of the power from the dyad, his clone body now has all this new life in it, and he's back in business. he throws Ben into a pit as petty revenge, and leaves Rey dying on the floor. but then Rey gets empowered by the spirits of the previous jedi, enough to get up for one final push to take out palpatine. and she does, reducing her so called grandfather to nothing, then she dies. Ben then gets back out of the pit, finds Rey dead and by giving all he had left to her through their special force bond he is able to resurrect her, but at the cost of his own life. the end. TLDR: palpatine's new body wasn't gonna work, so he needed a better one to use. cloning wasn't working but one clone was used to be his proxy within the first order and would, through this proxy's actions, attempt to corrupt Ben Solo into his new successor that he could use as a proper Vessel for his evil spirit. the other successful clone was a normal guy with no magic, and thus not good enough. but they let get away but kept an eye on him, because if he had a kid maybe that kid could be a successor and Vessel instead. Ben was Plan A, Rey was Plan B. once A failed, he focused on B instead. once both failed he realized he still had an option and tried to restore his nearly dead clone body by absorbing power through Rey and Bens special bond, but still ends up getting absolutely destroyed. so back to the question at hand, why did Snoke try to kill Rey? two reasons, Snoke probably doesn't know Rey's whole importance, so she doesn't matter to him as long as kylo still goes darkside. meanwhile from palpatine's perspective and his indirect control of snoke, at that point it didn't matter who survived and then fell to the darkside, Kylo or Rey, just that one of them did.
This makes perfect sense to the point where I never questioned it. I really hope we get more stories about Ben and his time with Snoke... And just more time with Snoke too. Just thinking about all the things that could be done with these characters and not contradict the films has me excited! I wish the sequel trilogy was done better overall, but what we have is a lot of good springboard material for some awesome stories
Palpatine always created his apprentices and heirs by pitting his choices against each other. Anakin vs. Dooku. Luke vs. Vader. Rey vs. Ben. I've always thought that the outcome of each of these 3 conflicts didn't matter to him as he would come out with the strongest apprentice.
Nice explanation. I just thought that during the throne room scene, Palpatine had not cemented in his head exactly who Rey was. He probably thought she had died as a child. It wasn't until Rey showed up and her powers started to manifest itself that he put two and two together and realized who she was. In TROS he would rather have Rey because she has his DNA for him to transfer his soul into. Much easier to control than just continuously feeding a conflicted Kylo with negative thoughts.
I mean, this channel is called "Star Wars Explained." If we're not here to see Alex explain Star Wars related stuff, then what are we here for? To watch him build Legos?
This is good thinking. As as you suggested, very on brand for Palpatine. I’m sure this POV will be swimming in my head canon the next time I watch Rise of Skywalker!
That honestly was how I felt about things as well, and that point extends back to as someone else in the comments said Anakin vs Dooku. If Anakin won, then Sidious had the Chosen One to become his apprentice. If Dooku won, then Anakin wasn’t worthy anyway and if he really was supposed to be the Chosen One destined to destroy him, then the biggest threat to his power is gone as well. This even more comes through with Luke vs Vader where Sidious thought he had a win-win-win. If Luke killed Vader, then he had the stronger apprentice and basically everything he hoped Anakin would be before his mutilation. If Vader won, then at least the biggest threat to his power was out of the way and he still had the strongest possible apprentice. But if Vader let Luke kill him like he was trying to goad him to, then theoretically by Luke killing him in a rage/opened to the dark side, then he could potentially have taken over Luke’s body through that ritual since it seems to require the killing be done with dark intentions, not a light side warrior doing it in self-defense or out of necessity with no true ill or malevolent intent
Thrawn Alliances was also a test... for both Vader and Thrawn. Thrawn had lost Jarrus and was sus. This makes some sense and was more or less what I thought. Heck I think with the meat puppet line, the "strikes down his true enemy," line also works well. Palpatine doesn't care who is struck down, so long as someone was... He loves baiting people into trying to kill him, or each other.
That's how I saw it as well. Palpatine was always looking far beyond any one moment in time. He was playing the ultimate long game. To me, the sequels downfall was not having a cohesive storyline from the jump. Lucas Film should have followed Palpatine's example and planned ahead.
Well this is why I love this channel first be a patreon bc they really do answer all your questions . He does not like sidious coming back but he really gives a good explanation of the crazy Situation great job Alex !!!
This observation is the partner of an idea I have in regard to the Night Ben fled Luke’s Temple. Snoke had been toying with Ben which put seeds of the Darkside in Ben. Clearly, a tactic Palpatine would have utilized in the past. When Luke probed Ben’s Mind, I believe he saw beyond Snoke’s temptations and saw it was Palpatine behind it all and in that moment that was when the rage had filled within Luke causing him to switch on his lightsaber but when he brought himself back to reality Palpatine’s plan for Ben had completely bared it’s fruit so to speak. In Ben’s eyes, he saw Luke ready to strike him down in cold blood. As he fled he had become more terrified leading himself toward a false sense of security from Snoke. Even though Luke knew it was Palpatine all along, he couldn’t tell Ben because Palpatine had successfully severed their bond and could now control Ben by any and all means necessary.
That actually doesn't sound that convoluted to me. I thought it was pretty clear in TRoS that he sent Kylo to kill Rey just to make sure she was as strong as he believed she was.
0:47 I’m the complete opposite l. I loved that Palpatine came back and like the idea of Palpatine being the one who pulled the strings. That being said, I hated how Disney handled it and wish they wrote it something different
Basically the Sith or Dark side users tend to use injury or lethal action to advance themselves or train their students. Vader did cut Lukes saber hand.
Palpatine's reasoning here reminds me of an apocryphal story about Alexander the Great. Legend has it that when asked who he was leaving his newly conquered empire to, he said "To the strongest." Palpatine is the same, but he planned to take over whoever "the strongest" turned out to be. But the Sequel Trilogy is still pretty horrible.
I’ve always appreciated how you give your opinions on Star Wars topics but don’t trash on it. I love everything Star Wars. I recognize the bad but focus on what I like.
Makes sense to me. Palpatine was also fine with Luke replacing Vader in ROTJ. I think the way the sequels arrived at that point is kinda wobbly but I still love them.
I have a question. During episode 7 Kylo ren was recommending a clone army to general hux and since we saw kamino facility destroyed how was the first order going to create a clone army.
Alex and his community's mindset towards the sequel trilogy is : You liked it? Good for you! You don't like it? Thats fine too.
His community is made of people with different opinions (Something rare in Star Wars) that respects one another because we've actually grown and matured since the first time we watched Star Wars.
He made a safe corner free from the nonsense the general Star Wars community is infamous for.
Thank you Alex and Mollie
That’s exactly what I’ve been saying, it’s so nice to watch videos and talk about the sequels without being berated for enjoying them
That's what I like about Star Wars Explained. I feel like lots of "Star Wars UA-camrs" out there are really political grifters. Making mountains out of molehills.
couldn't agree more
Omg I absolutely agree. I love this channel.
I got into Star Wars after TLJ and Mollie and Alex's channel is a big reason I felt okay diving deeper into the fandom. Thanks guys!
Palpatine is always playing a convoluted game of 13 dimensional chess with endless contingency plans that make sense to him alone because Star Wars.
hang on, I thought there was only twelve dimensions....
whoa, you just blew my mind.
@@RoverIAC Not for a Sith...
I was thinking more 66 dimensional chess
@@lordianbadeyan818 3 comments in and you have won. Congratulations.
Hahaha so true
Further to your point, Palpatine literally made a career off of fomenting conflict. He made sure various parties were so distracted/focused on other things, no one ever had the time to step back and see him pulling the strings from the shadows. Whenever one side of a conflict won out, he would then swoop in and either take over or destroy them, since half of his would-be opposition had just been eliminated for him.
I’m not sure you know what a career is. Putting a galaxy at war,with millions dead, is not one.
@@Orbitalbomb He's a politician, and then an emperor/dictator. This is how they act in real life so I'd consider it a career.
Its very similar to Dooku and Anakin fighting in the sense that it’s a win-win for Palpatine. If Dooku wins, Anakin wasn’t worthy of being Palps apprentice anyway and thus ‘the chosen one’ wouldn’t be anything to worry about anymore.
but if (and when) Anakin wins he is able to rise (or fall, I suppose) to the mantle of the Sith. Either way, Palps has the strongest apprentice
Same with Luke and Vader, as well. Same scenario
fightingfalcon777 Exactly. Setting others against one another is a skill that Palpatine has mastered throughout the saga. Hell, that was the whole reason for the clone war in the first place.
Great username! :)
Also by always having another potential apprentice in the wings to kill the current one, he ensures that none of them attain the mastery needed to kill him.
Well, the novelization for "Revenge of the Sith" claims that Dooku planned to lose on purpose to Anakin and play the fall guy to spend the rest of his life in captivity. He just didn't expect to be legitimately defeated by Anakin, nor did he expect his master to order his execution after he lost.
I don't know how much of the unique content of that novelization is still canon, though. The novelization for the original "Star Wars" movie has certainly been retconned to h*** and back over the years.
This is how I've always seen it. Palpatine was pitting Rey and Kylo against each other to see who would come out on top and whoever did would be his prime vessel. It's possible Snoke had some autonomy of his own and wasn't a literally puppet. He was certainly influenced by Sidious on Exegol but I'm not sure to what extent. Snoke might not have known who Rey actually was. Ultimately whether Snoke could think for himself or was literally a puppet Sidious was controlling doesn't change his purpose but it is still interesting.
I agree. I do think Snoke thought for himself, but still reported to Palpatine in secret.
Remember in part 7, he said that he was around before the rise of the empire.
@@MrRba122 Because at the time he was meant to be Plagueis. I still have no doubt about that. But in retrospect, we could say it's technically because he's Palpatine, albeit in clone form, rotting away unable to possess his force power for much longer.
My head canon is Snoke was a placeholder apprentice Palaptine created to do his bidding while he was too weak to leave Exegol due to his decaying clone vessels. I see him as a lesser Maul or Dooku or Vader. Completely my own head canon, but I like to think he had autonomy instead of being a meat puppet.
@@chase138 I think the Filoniverse shows have a good chance of ultimately proving that true. We're already re-introducing the mountain cloning base from Legends, so we're going to be shown how the contingency plan ultimately turned into Palpatine returning. Along the way, we're bound to see Snoke's origins.
No different from the Throne room scene in episode 6: he didn't care if Luke or Vader died as long as the more powerful came out on top.
Palpatine was looking to replace Vader with Luke in Episode 6 too. Even back then before any of the EU or Disney reboot canon, he was pitting potential heirs against one another.
Really good point!
And even in legends clones were never a viable option because the Force can only be used by living beings, and Palps' clones were just meat suits that were dependent of how strong he already is, not to mention Dark Side Degradation in general.
Except that as soon as he knew there was a Skywalker heir, they were searching for Luke. So it was clearly a high priority. And if both Vader and Luke died somehow, he still had his own body to continue living in. In the convoluted sequels, Snoke had Kylo as his apprentice for quite a while, and despite having all of Snoke's resources at his disposal, didn't make more of an effort to find Rey. So it makes no sense.
@@randalthekidd7006 A lot of thought went into the PT and OT. Very little thought when into the sequels. And even less thought from the people defending the sequels by trying to draw weak comparisons with Lucas' movies as proof that the sequels are consistent.
The reason TROS is even more boring than the other sequels, is Palpatine parachutes in from nowhere, and we are supposed to care about his interest in other characters he never saw.
@@Ruylopez778 Well, they didn't even know Rey existed until Kylo encountered her on Takodana, While Palpatine knew a clone son had escaped at some point, he had little reason to think it had resulted in another potential vessel for him to chase after until that point.
I always felt that Snoke went rogue from Palpatine's plan. Snoke feels like someone with a major inferiority complex, likely the result of being a failed clone, so he sought to rule the galaxy himself. Snoke took advantage of the post-war chaos to rise and become the leader of the First Order. Like Yoda did with Luke, Snoke kept an eye on Rey from afar and didn't like what he saw. Snoke sensed Rey had "the spirit of a true Jedi", a judgement vindicated when they finally met. Snoke instead sought out a powerful apprentice that he could still control. Ben Solo, with his "conflicted soul", was the perfect solution for Snoke: his own Vader. And Snoke very nearly succeeded. Starkiller Base served its purpose and decimated the New Republic. He was on the precipice of destroying the Jedi Order and the Resistance. He dreamed of killing Rey, Luke and Leia all in one triumphant day. Yet he underestimated Ben Solo. Much like Palpatine, his overconfidence in his apprentice proved to be his downfall. Snoke going off on his own and almost winning it all is a much richer story than just being Palpatine's puppet. I hope someday Lucasfilm realizes this
Snoke thought he was the king in this game of chess, but in truth he was nothing more than a pawn.
@@jacobberg373 Eh, he's more like a bishop. He's more powerful and worth more than a pawn, but he's still easily sacrificed to clear the way for a pawn to be promoted to queen.
@@Compucles Very excellent metaphor. I might be yoinking it for future discussions like this. :P
@@Compucles I see, I need to relearn my chess metaphors
I’m with you in that I don’t care for Palpatine’s return, but I 100% appreciate everything you do to make sense of all the convolution to make the stories better. Even though most don’t like it, the stories are canon. So let’s make the most of them.
Yep. JJ seemed to just steamroll through Star Wars sense. Good thing we have people like Filoni, Favreau, Soule, etc. to play clean up and try to get the pieces to fit. And we have Star Wars Explained to wrap all up and give his takes! It’s canon if we like it or not, but we got a great clean up crew!
It’s like fantasy so we don’t REALLY have to listen to the corporations when they tell us to accept one canon or another
i dont have anything against trying to make the story better but i hate that it is needed. No one of the fans is in the wrong for wanting star wars to be good, to make sense in my opinion but i hate it if fan theories and explanations are used to defend the horrible mess that disney made when they did what they did to star wars.
Damn right bro
Well according to Canon there were multiple clones of palpatine, like his "son" Rey's father so of they where useless to him he would kill them off. He would do the same easily to his granddaughter if she failed also.
His purpose was to find a vessel to inherit his power. But for that he needed a powerful enough vessel. If they couldn't cut it, it was back to square one. But they cut it... Snoke, that is. They cut it in half. And Palpatine smiled.
Why is this so poetic
It's exactly the same as pitting Dooku against Anakin
As soon as Anakin can beat Dooku, Palpatine moves onto having Anakin
No, because he always wanted Anakin.
Yeah. He can't claim to have a powerful apprentice if he can't defeat a powerful foe. He pushes him to the limit because if he is not powerful enough, he is useless.
@@totallyanonymousbish9599 true but he also didn't stop Dooku at any point. Dooku could have chopped Anakins head off 3 seconds into their duel
Alex I apologize for all of the people commenting things on this video despite you clarifying at the beginning of the video. You do great work, and thank you for keeping it up!
This was super helpful and interesting. Thank you for making this.
When I first heard Palpatine's laughter in the first TROS trailer, I originally thought he'd be back as a sith spirit. Like Darth Bane's in TCW.
Sith Ghosts are impossible within Canon for their very nature goes against the Force itself. Darth Bane wasn't a sith ghost, he was simply an illusion that didn't really exist as Yoda stated within that episode.
@@jacobberg373 They can attach their consciousness to objects tho
The only reason Sidious tests Vader is because he didn’t know he’d burn on Mustafar. Before that he is at peace with the idea of Vader killing him, in fact he can’t wait for it.
That’s why he tells Yoda: “Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us” he had always wanted Anakin as his apprentice more than Maul or Dooku.
I would have loved it if Snoke was trying to kill Rey out of self preservation
The cool thing (for now, I guess), is that there isn't really a "canon" answer to the question, so your hypothesis is equally as valid (at least until Palpatine exposits about it somewhere or the writer of Rise of Skywalker does more JK Rowling-style retroactive writing).
You know a fandom is toxic when Alex has to justify his explaining a movie... despite the fact that his job is explaining movies, lol.
I mean he should be encouraged to make sense of all that nonsense 😂
The sequels are a convoluted mess lmaooo
@@-o-o-1917 you are a mess
@@mdioxd9200 it's not nonsense
@@-o-o-1917 lol okay whatever you say
Would've been fine if we'd got a Palpatine reveal in 8. That's all I say.
I'm happy we even got Palpatine at all in 9 but I agree, he should have been revealed in 8. I hope future seasons of the live action shows give more light to how the First Order rose and how Palpatine pulled the strings.
@@randalthekidd7006 Openly retconning? Then why was Canto Bight referenced in the Mandalorian or the increased focus on cloning in many of these new shows which all point directly to Palpatine's return. Get real, the Sequel Trilogy is as Star Wars as the Prequel and Orginial Trilogies are.
Palpy: I heard you liked some backup plans for your backup plans with a splash of contingencies
Lol
I don't think Rey was really a backup until later during "Rise". Ben was probably always priority 1 since Papa Palpatine wasn't aware of Rey until she beat Ben on Starkiller, at the earliest. And there's so little time between Eps 7 and 8 that I'm not sure she figured much into his plan other than to make Ben fall further. Either he killed his master or the girl he liked.
Yeah, I feel pretty confident that Palpatine thought Rey was just a random Force-user until after TLJ was over.
That’s exactly the best way to look at those things. These movies are what we have. We can either keep looking for more mistakes to complain about or search for new ways to accept and then appreciate them. ❤️
In short:
1) Snoke probably didn't even know he was Palpatine's creation (from "The Star Wars Book"), so his decisions are not necessarily Palpatine's.
2) After many failed experiments, Palpatine finds out about Rey and sends Ochi to capture her. Ochi fails.
3) Palpatine shifts his attention to Ben, and uses Snoke to turn him to the Dark Side. Up until Kylo's redemption this was always Palpatine's plan, to have Ben as his vessel. We know this because when Ben turns back to the light thanks to Leia's intervention, Palpatine tells Pryde "The princess of Alderaan has disrupted my plans".
4) After Kylo's turn, Palpatine goes back to the original plan: use Rey as his vessel. When he tells Rey "I never wanted you dead", that's both truth and lie. At first he didn't want her dead, he sent Ochi to retrieve her. Of course, later he ordered Kylo to kill her.
5) Regarding the Dyad, I don't think we ever got a clear explanation if Snoke actually knew they were a Dyad. He just says that he bridged their minds, but nothing else. Also, he didn't create the Dyad, because Ben and Rey always have been (seen in Rise of Kylo Ren comic). But even if Snoke knew they were a Dyad, he is not really a puppet of Palpatine's, that's why the Emperor didn't know about that.
@@randalthekidd7006 You feel smarter after that? OF COURSE the Sequel Trilogy is a huuuuge mess. I was just working with the after-the-movie information we got.
I think it's a win win situation. The worst better. Kylo or Rey would fit Palps plans. Typical Palpatine.
Thanks for reiterating the video I just watched
@@Grand_History 😂 noticed. I commented in the beginning of the video, I totally agree to Alex 😃
@@KatiaBarga It makes sense. Snoke says the confrontation with your father has left you shattered. So if he now kills Rey with whom Snoke/Palps knows/set up their Forcetiming sessions, and probably can feel the connection/love toward one another, then even more of a path to the Darside if he kills her at some point. Or knowing that Rey has his blood in her, ergo her affinity to the Darkside, then her killing Kylo or joining him, being then filled with more Darkside energy, would be enough to possess her body. I agree, yes a retcon and I wish they set this up more in VII and VIII but it certainly fits well. Hell the prequels only fit well because of the clone wars series. We need an animated Post Mando animated series with young Kylo and Luke voiced by Hamil before his voice gets too gravely from age.
@@paulzon3269 I want Luke's and Ben série sooooo much ❤️
This one isn't even a stretch to explain. That's just Palpatine. Good job on being a positive force in this fandom.
It hate how rare it is for people to respect each other's opinions in this community. Star Wars explained is one of the few non toxic SW channel and I'm so grateful for it's existence.
Hear hear!
The fact that Palpatine’s plan is so needlessly complicated and confusing is actually completely in character for him.
@@danieldickson3215 He wanted to make an excuse for creating the clone army by invading Naboo and announcing the return of Sith.
@@danieldickson3215 He wanted to become Chancellor of The Republic so he could orchestrate The Clone Wars on that side while Dooku did it for him on the other
@@danieldickson3215 I'm pretty sure Dooku (under Palpatines orders) ordered the Clone Army just using an already dead Sifo Dyas as a scapegoat.
@@danieldickson3215 He already left the Jedi Order by the time of TPM.
@@danieldickson3215 He wanted to create a crisis to put pressure on the current chancellor and ultimately become his replacement.
having recently gone through the Bane trilogy on Audible, these motivations for Palpatine sound almost word-for-word like quotes Bane says to Zannah or Zannah says to the people she takes on as apprentices.
“If she does she wasn’t worthy, if he revolts he’s a perfect host” very much sounds like a sentence Darth Bane would say in the final book as he’s looking for a new vessel.
Love how even in the new canon, Sith feel like Sith. Disney gets a little bit too much criticism in their handling of the franchise.
This video should be on that site that did that blog about it kind of weird almost 2 years later but ?? Alex is the true guru nerd encyclopedia of Star Wars and that’s awesome
TLDW: It’s Palpatine, bastard has a million dentures and hyperdrives just in case he might need one, hell it wouldn’t surprise me if he had a coaxium stash/refinery in his palace just in case
I think that another factor is that we don't know how much exactly Palpatine controlled Snoke and how much Snoke knew about Palpatine's plans. I mean did he controlled him like a puppet, did he "just" manipulated him like he did e.g. Anakin or was it something in between? Because it's also possible that Snoke had some kind of free will and wanted to kill Rey either out of jealousy, hatred for Palpatine or because Snoke simply wanted to become Palpatine's new enforcer.
One thing I never understood about Palpatine is that he was ALWAYS pitting apprentices against each other and sending a never ending stream of challengers against his "current" apprentice. But surely he knew the Rule of Two and eventually the apprentice would replace him.
Why bother finding the strongest apprentice when he must know that he will eventually be the one to kill him?
Palps has always been arrogant. To me he always thought he was special, and that the Rule of Two would never apply exactly to him (as in, no mere apprentice could challenge him directly).
giving his apprentices challengers does make them stronger, but it also distracts them from turning on Palpatine. keeping them constantly busy proving themselves is really smart on Palpatine's part bc that energy and time can't be used on plotting against him
Because Palpatine loves his convoluted plans he has them in every era and I love it
Prequel fanboys:
"Palpatine's plan in the prequels was so genius. You're just too stupid for that."
@@RamielDerLinke I mean yes
@@RamielDerLinke he literally wins in the prequels
@@StalinMario But that doesn't mean that his plan is genius when you think about it. In reality this plan would have never worked out because there were too many red flags. Everything is based on "Oh, Palpatine manipulated their mind and that's why they're stupid and Palpatine could foresee everything". This plan would have been more logical if people would just say that 80% of his plan was based on luck and hoping it's gonna go out well. I don't want to say that Palpatine's plan in the sequels is great. But people can't complain about that plan but then just ignore all the obvious flaws in his plan in the prequels. But yes, I forgot, the prequels are the best thing since the comeback of Jesus Christ.
What exactly is so convoluted about his plans in the prequels? He played two sides against each other which is something that's happened in reality throughout history.
This is an AWESOME point, it makes so much sense to me especially in the context of the rest of canon. Thank you for this video!!
I don’t know why this need to be explain. How on earth people have not understood that ? When she was a child Palpatine wanted to bring back Rey because he could transform her into a sith with no efforts. Later at the beginning of 9 she was already a trained Jedi so he wanted Kylo to kill her because she was a danger to him. But when Ben returned he literally said to Pryde that he needed to change his plan. So he decided to make Rey believe that he always wanted her by his side. And Snoke wanted to kill her because it was at the time where she was a menace to him and that Kylo was still on the dark side. Simple as that.
Lol yeah
I always thought this was rather apparent. When Rey vanished, he turned his attention to Ben. When Rey reappeared, he now had two potential options for a successor. Whether one killed the other would only determine which one would be his true heir. In the case of Snoke, this also retroactively goes back to "The Force Awakens". When Snoke told Ben to bring Rey to him, he could very well have realized the girl was Palpatine's granddaughter.
I always just thought palpatine wanted either kylo or rey as an heir. I mean wasn't it stated that snoke was sort of a test for kylo to see if he was clever enough to be a sith or something?
"Maul, a skilled fighter, but little more, cut down and then surpassed. A disappointment.
Dooku, too old, held back by a few 'noble' ideals. A temporary tool.
Vader, infinite power, grounds for immense hatred, but broken just before he was ready. A tragedy.
Skywalker, the spiting image of his father, placed on the cusp of greatness, but too stupid and afraid to seize it. A waste.
Kylo Ren, a neglected soul with a strong back, given everything he needed, but was too weak of will to keep it. A farce.
Rey, strong blood, self-reliant, filled with anger - the building blocks of the perfect Sith."
- Darth Sidious, to himself, probably. (Not a lot of people to talk to on Exegol.)
Dude, this both describes all these characters perfectly and keeps it within Palpatine's own twisted viewpoint. This is very good writing and I suggest that you continue doing so.
@@jacobberg373 yep, great writing and now i am dreaming of a world where he wrote the new trilogy instead of the winged apes that did.
@@StabbyTheSkavenit’s sad that palpatine never tryed to turn liea to the dark side
Also
I'll be honest
I low-key kinda wanna see a what if with palpy actually succeeding in getting Rey's body and then awkward weird palpy moments of him trying to adapt to being a woman lmao
Like
He gets his first period and is like
"Ive never felt such pure hatred befooorre"
Would have been gold
I won hundred percent agree with you Alex. Additionally, I think whoever would have one that duel, would have been pushed further to the Darkside. Thus making whoever that was a better apprentice/conduit
Palpatine was a master at creating win-win situations for himself. Alex, you beat all around the bush, and almost stated it outright. Pitting one potential apprentice against another was just one example.
The entire Clone War was a win-win for the Sith, and lose-lose for the Jedi. If the Jedi had not engaged in The Clone War, then they would have been viewed as turning their back on the galaxy. By engaging in warfare, the Jedi turned their back on their own heritage with the Force.
Totally agree, that's the way I looked at it (although it's 100% headcanon, tbh). I have more of an issue with Palpatine not knowing the whole dyad thing despite Snoke supposedly creating it to begin with.
Because nobody writing this trilogy ever exchanged notes or planned more than 5 minutes into the future. Easy.
George backpedaled a lot and made new ideas that didn't stay consistent with the films before in both the OT and PT. It's a common flaw of the franchise.
I'm surprised that you didn't mention how Paplpatine in such a fashion tried to replace Vader with Luke in Return of the Jedi. Also, could you make a video to try to answer the question of whether snoke was either Palpatine’s puppet or servant
Your opinions and thoughts are exactly why I love your channel. You may not like the choices in the Disney Star Wars world but you still have a respectful and open minded discussion. Thank you for being you!
We really really need a book about palpatine like the Darth plagius book. Doesn't mean we have to like the story but it really needs to be explained
Thank you so much for taking a logical, fair approach to this video instead of just doing the “SeqUeL wriTiNG SuCKs” bit
What if snoke orchestrated all of that to spay Palpatine? That would make sense Palpatines apprentices like Darth Mall the clone wars and also Dooku did.
I'm starting to think that Palpatine's whole plan was to have Rey kill Kylo. The idea was basically turn Ben Solo to neutralize Luke, then let Rey kill Ben, ridding of the Skywalkers once and for all. Rey was supposed to kill him on the Death Star, but heals him instead and then Leia turns him back...hence the line about the Princess of Alderaan spoiling his plan. It's Ben's arrival on Exigol that gives her the strength to resist him in the end and leads to his own defeat.
There's also an explanation as to why he didn't just make a younger clone of himself, the Force can only be used by living beings, this is why Palpatine was eager to replace Vader with Luke, for as powerful as Vader was, he was handicaped in the Force, he was never gonna be more powerful than how we see him as Vader. Its also fitting that Palpatine's quest for power consumes and withers him away.
Solid explanation to me.
For all the colossal issues I have had with the sequel trilogy, I have to say that it’s growing on me over time. There are also a lot of really great points made in this video about the Rule of 2 and how it pertains to Snoke that I never thought of before.
Personally I'd just want them to expand & redeem Finn's character post-TROS and explain Palpatine's return more. Then I don't mind the trilogy. I enjoy them *(at least the first two)* more than the prequels at least.
I really liked Force Awakens & Last Jedi, but I was having serious issues with TROS…until I read the novelization. Alex had mentioned it in a couple of videos, and honestly it made all the difference for me.
@@liisashunn1812 I haven't read it, perhaps I should. TROS is like the only Star Wars film that I can say I hate.
@@SWFT_edits Resistance Reborn filled in some gaps too. Not a great book, but not bad either. Takes place between Last Jedi & TROS.
Actually it's the opposite for me. I've become aware of how the trilogy was doomed from the very beginning.
This is how I always saw it, but you explain it a lot better than I can XD. His character in this film is still consistent with his character in the rest of the films, books, shows, and comics. He did the same thing with Anakin and Dooku in Revenge of the Sith (iirc it's explained in the novel that the whole fight onboard the Invisible Hand was manufactured by Palpatine to be a test for Anakin) and then later with Vader and Luke in Return of the Jedi, he doesn't care who wins, so long as the victor is the one standing at his side in the end. In the case of TROS, like you said, he's seeing who is more suitable to be the vessel of his spirit. And I also have the same sentiment, I don't 100% agree with what they did with the sequels, but I still like to piece everything together and make it make sense for myself. Like I'd try to make sense of it and people will be like "There's no use in making sense of it, you're wasting your breath", at the end of the day, it's still Star Wars, and regardless of how I feel about it, I'll except it for what it is, and if it doesn't make sense I'll try to make it make sense, just for my own closure. And like you said, the Sequel Trilogy is not the only part of Star Wars that's convoluted, Star Wars as a whole is. Anyways, rant over XD
Thank you for this!! I know this twist wasn’t your favorite but I appreciate the good faith analysis you presented in your vid. Not enough people do that with the sequel trilogy and it’s a real bummer for me because these films are my favorites. I think a lot of criticism about them is rather shallow, unfair, and very narrowly focused. If you look at any SW movie long enough, you can easily pick out things to criticize.
I loved Palp’s return and the subsequent recontextualization of the ST and entire Skywalker saga into a story about the Skywalkers vs the Palpatines. I also think they’ve done a pretty good job of tying up lose ends and connecting the dots with recent blogs/articles, comics, and books.
I agree with you 100%. I was under the impression that he also considered having Ben as an heir. Hence "kill the girl, end the Jedi and become what your grandfather Vader could not. You will rule all the galaxy as the new emperor." Whoever won would become the emperor, as Palpatine put Anakin against Dooku, and Vader against other potential apprentices. Thank you for looking at the movies with the same consistency!!
I love this channel and how you guys work hard to connect the dots of an often convoluted story. I can't get past the reality that Disney didn't have a plan for this trilogy but I honestly appreciate you doing the work Disney should have done.
Another great video with some good reasoning behind it. I think you are 100% correct on your take, especially given the information we have regarding this question at this moment in time. Thanks!
LOVE this Alex. Great video as always
Similar to the throne room in Return of the Jedi, when Palpatine is thrilled that Luke might destroy Vader and take Vader's place at his side.
Never really thought about it, but your explanation makes sense
Not to mention, Palpatine never really says that he explicitly needed Rey for the ritual in Episode 9 anyway, so he absolutely would have done the same thing to Kylo. In fact, if you completely take the "She's a Palpatine" thing out of the plot, the movie would not fundamentally change. Palpatine basically just says he needs to be struck down in hate, presumably by a Sith minded person, for his spirit transfer thing to work. He doesn't explicitly need blood relation. Its literally just a Sith thing.
Me: Listens to first minute.
"Cool. He knows. No need to continue."
Hmm, in hindsight, that does sound pretty Sith of Palpy. I guess I can give this plot point the benefit of the doubt.
It makes sense that so many plots are centered around Palps testing Vader. From a narrative perspective who else _could_ test him? He's the emperor of the galaxy's pet, not quite second in command, but definitely very few that could get away with questioning or even out ranking him. He's also the most powerful force user active (note: active) in the galaxy aside from his boss.
So just for the sake of writing a story there aren't many normal situations Vader could run into that would truly push him to his limits. So those situations basically have to be manufactured by Palpatine. Until Luke and Obi-Wan popped up and he had _real_ problems.
RIP entrance theme. This was (apparently) it's last appearance.
100% agree. And the same with Luke vs Vader in RotJ, he didn’t care about any of them, he was just eager to keep manipulating the strongest one.
looking back on this topic, since we know a bit more now on all the stuff with snoke and palpatine, by my understanding the way it all worked was like this:
once palpatine died and possessed the clone body and realized its too frail and not gonna work, he started working on a successor, his overall goal is a new functioning body in the short term, and immortality and galactic rule in the long term.
there were many other attempts at cloning beyond the body he actually used, but none truly worked. he had at least 2 clones that were kinda successful but not good enough for him to actually use as a replacement body/Vessel.
one was Snoke, who was super strong with the force but physically way too frail. if this current body he was in wasn't going to work, no way Snoke's was. so Snoke was used as a puppet; to what degree Snoke was independent from palpatine is unclear, but he was at minimum controlled and influenced by palpatine in a subconscious way. whether that be by dark side force magic or clone mental programing or some combination there of hasn't been clearly stated but the how isn't super important, just that he was. through snoke there was indirect control of the first order, the main most powerful imperial remnant out in the galaxy.
the other kinda successful clone was a perfectly healthy human with 0 force sensitivity. healthy body but no magic; the opposite problem of snoke. this was palpatine's "Son." he was definitely his own person outside palpatine's direct control, unlike Snoke. this "son" then got out of there, and they let him go, but the sith eternals were gonna try and keep an eye on him. the reason palpatine and the sith eternal cult let him go was essentially a back up plan, if he eventually has a family, maybe his kid could be a proper successor and vessel if the main plan doesn't work out.
said main plan was using snoke to take control of the growing first order and eventually find an apprentice that can be palpatine's successor and new functioning body. the first order would grow, and in time eventually merge with palpatine's slowly building super weapon fleet to then take control of the Galaxy again, meanwhile Palpatine and Snoke found this successor in Ben and thus pushed him to the dark side and stuff; that was Plan A. have Ben fully fall to the dark side, kill his master like any Sith does eventually, and when the time came he'd be led to exogol so palpatine can use him as a vessel. meanwhile Plan B had a bit of a wrench thrown into it when Palpatines son did have a family, but successfully hid them, specifically his Kid, from the Sith Eternals. so all in on Plan A.
then, years later Rey shows up and gets roped into this, and now Plan B is back on the table. so with Snoke dead and kylo on the dark side, and the Fleet ready to go; since both plans are in play, he sets his two possible successors against each other, by revealing himself then telling Kylo to kill Rey. if he successfully kills her, then his fall to the darkside is complete and palpatine can get to work on the possession ritual thing. and if Rey strikes Kylo down instead then her fall to the darkside truely begins and he can corrupt her instead and do the possession ritual thing with her. but then Kylo goes back to being Ben Solo and Rey doesn't actually strike him down, healing him instead. but Rey still does go to Exogol, so palpatine begins trying to manipulate her into joining him but it ends up not working, and then Ben shows up and they stand against him together.
then palpatine recognizes just what kind of force bond is going on between these two, and goes "Ah ha! PLAN C!" and instead of doing the ritual thing to get a new body, he begins draining their power and life away and makes this frail, unstable, and weak clone body actually work properly. after absorbing a lot of the power from the dyad, his clone body now has all this new life in it, and he's back in business. he throws Ben into a pit as petty revenge, and leaves Rey dying on the floor.
but then Rey gets empowered by the spirits of the previous jedi, enough to get up for one final push to take out palpatine. and she does, reducing her so called grandfather to nothing, then she dies. Ben then gets back out of the pit, finds Rey dead and by giving all he had left to her through their special force bond he is able to resurrect her, but at the cost of his own life. the end.
TLDR: palpatine's new body wasn't gonna work, so he needed a better one to use. cloning wasn't working but one clone was used to be his proxy within the first order and would, through this proxy's actions, attempt to corrupt Ben Solo into his new successor that he could use as a proper Vessel for his evil spirit. the other successful clone was a normal guy with no magic, and thus not good enough. but they let get away but kept an eye on him, because if he had a kid maybe that kid could be a successor and Vessel instead. Ben was Plan A, Rey was Plan B. once A failed, he focused on B instead. once both failed he realized he still had an option and tried to restore his nearly dead clone body by absorbing power through Rey and Bens special bond, but still ends up getting absolutely destroyed.
so back to the question at hand, why did Snoke try to kill Rey? two reasons, Snoke probably doesn't know Rey's whole importance, so she doesn't matter to him as long as kylo still goes darkside. meanwhile from palpatine's perspective and his indirect control of snoke, at that point it didn't matter who survived and then fell to the darkside, Kylo or Rey, just that one of them did.
Very well explained. Great video.
Palpatine has just as many contingency plans as Master Xehanort. Dark Lords like their convoluted plans
Yep, I think you summed it up nicely here, man. This lines up with what I thought too.
This makes perfect sense to the point where I never questioned it. I really hope we get more stories about Ben and his time with Snoke... And just more time with Snoke too. Just thinking about all the things that could be done with these characters and not contradict the films has me excited!
I wish the sequel trilogy was done better overall, but what we have is a lot of good springboard material for some awesome stories
Palpatine always created his apprentices and heirs by pitting his choices against each other. Anakin vs. Dooku. Luke vs. Vader. Rey vs. Ben. I've always thought that the outcome of each of these 3 conflicts didn't matter to him as he would come out with the strongest apprentice.
As a fan of the sequel trilogy, thank you for your theories.
Because at the time of filming she wasn't palpatines heir 🙃
1:05 Well said
But isn’t Snoke palps puppet? At the article it says that he failed bringing Rey to palpatine
Nice explanation. I just thought that during the throne room scene, Palpatine had not cemented in his head exactly who Rey was. He probably thought she had died as a child. It wasn't until Rey showed up and her powers started to manifest itself that he put two and two together and realized who she was. In TROS he would rather have Rey because she has his DNA for him to transfer his soul into. Much easier to control than just continuously feeding a conflicted Kylo with negative thoughts.
When Palpatine tells Rey he wanted her alive the whole time, Rey should’ve just said “Liar!” That way it would’ve made much more sense
Calling Palpatine a liar is like saying that he's evil, it's as obvious as the sun is bright.
I mean, this channel is called "Star Wars Explained." If we're not here to see Alex explain Star Wars related stuff, then what are we here for? To watch him build Legos?
This is good thinking. As as you suggested, very on brand for Palpatine. I’m sure this POV will be swimming in my head canon the next time I watch Rise of Skywalker!
Amazing! Thank you! I love your reasoning for how to stand up for the Sequel Trilogy!
That honestly was how I felt about things as well, and that point extends back to as someone else in the comments said Anakin vs Dooku. If Anakin won, then Sidious had the Chosen One to become his apprentice. If Dooku won, then Anakin wasn’t worthy anyway and if he really was supposed to be the Chosen One destined to destroy him, then the biggest threat to his power is gone as well.
This even more comes through with Luke vs Vader where Sidious thought he had a win-win-win. If Luke killed Vader, then he had the stronger apprentice and basically everything he hoped Anakin would be before his mutilation. If Vader won, then at least the biggest threat to his power was out of the way and he still had the strongest possible apprentice. But if Vader let Luke kill him like he was trying to goad him to, then theoretically by Luke killing him in a rage/opened to the dark side, then he could potentially have taken over Luke’s body through that ritual since it seems to require the killing be done with dark intentions, not a light side warrior doing it in self-defense or out of necessity with no true ill or malevolent intent
Because it wasn’t written as a whole story and Palpatine was added late in the process? I mean that’s the real answer.
Wonder if palps is like gone entirely or if his soul is still floating around looking for a way to recooperate
Snoke definitely has some Kaminoan DNA in him.
Thrawn Alliances was also a test... for both Vader and Thrawn. Thrawn had lost Jarrus and was sus.
This makes some sense and was more or less what I thought.
Heck I think with the meat puppet line, the "strikes down his true enemy," line also works well. Palpatine doesn't care who is struck down, so long as someone was... He loves baiting people into trying to kill him, or each other.
That's how I saw it as well. Palpatine was always looking far beyond any one moment in time. He was playing the ultimate long game.
To me, the sequels downfall was not having a cohesive storyline from the jump. Lucas Film should have followed Palpatine's example and planned ahead.
Well this is why I love this channel first be a patreon bc they really do answer all your questions . He does not like sidious coming back but he really gives a good explanation of the crazy Situation great job Alex !!!
This observation is the partner of an idea I have in regard to the Night Ben fled Luke’s Temple. Snoke had been toying with Ben which put seeds of the Darkside in Ben. Clearly, a tactic Palpatine would have utilized in the past. When Luke probed Ben’s Mind, I believe he saw beyond Snoke’s temptations and saw it was Palpatine behind it all and in that moment that was when the rage had filled within Luke causing him to switch on his lightsaber but when he brought himself back to reality Palpatine’s plan for Ben had completely bared it’s fruit so to speak. In Ben’s eyes, he saw Luke ready to strike him down in cold blood. As he fled he had become more terrified leading himself toward a false sense of security from Snoke. Even though Luke knew it was Palpatine all along, he couldn’t tell Ben because Palpatine had successfully severed their bond and could now control Ben by any and all means necessary.
That actually doesn't sound that convoluted to me. I thought it was pretty clear in TRoS that he sent Kylo to kill Rey just to make sure she was as strong as he believed she was.
King plagues lives
0:47 I’m the complete opposite l. I loved that Palpatine came back and like the idea of Palpatine being the one who pulled the strings. That being said, I hated how Disney handled it and wish they wrote it something different
Basically the Sith or Dark side users tend to use injury or lethal action to advance themselves or train their students.
Vader did cut Lukes saber hand.
Palpatine's reasoning here reminds me of an apocryphal story about Alexander the Great. Legend has it that when asked who he was leaving his newly conquered empire to, he said "To the strongest." Palpatine is the same, but he planned to take over whoever "the strongest" turned out to be.
But the Sequel Trilogy is still pretty horrible.
Star Wars convulsion is like Bethesda glitches: it’s not a bug, it’s a feature.
Well put! The voice of reason you are.
I’ve always appreciated how you give your opinions on Star Wars topics but don’t trash on it. I love everything Star Wars. I recognize the bad but focus on what I like.
Makes sense to me. Palpatine was also fine with Luke replacing Vader in ROTJ. I think the way the sequels arrived at that point is kinda wobbly but I still love them.
Because she wasn’t Palpatine’s heir in 2017.
I have a question. During episode 7 Kylo ren was recommending a clone army to general hux and since we saw kamino facility destroyed how was the first order going to create a clone army.