Also, as I interpret it, when Destined Death is unbound we (the Tarnished) are infused with the Rune itself, similar to how Radagon and Marika are infused with the Elden Ring. We already do this with the other Great Runes. After being infused with the rune, we are teleported to Lyndell and burn the city from within, and we wake up amongst the ashes unharmed. Much like the Fire’s Deadly Sin incantation. This is how we are able to permanently wield the power of Destined Death, without succumbing to permanent death ourselves. And thats my silly lore reason why permadeath isnt a mechanic after the Erdtree burns with Destined Death.
I always chocked it up to protagonist armor. The player seems to be the only Tarnished who is guided by Grace, and thus is able to revive. Godfrey seems to recieve Grace in his intro cinematic, but he seems to die a real death, so I don't know.
@@theeldenconspiracy9451 I'm pretty sure this whole reviving conundrum boils down to the old hollowing concept where as long you have a purpose will never go hollow. In Elden Ring when the Dung Eater, Fia, and Goldmask fulfil their purposes (create a mending rune) they die (yes I'm implying that D kills an already dead Fia lol), you can see that even Rogier who doesn't see the guidance of grace anymore doesn't die a real death at the bottom of Stormveil Castle. So going back to Godfrey I think that once he's bested by the protagonist he gets ridden of grace, loses his raison d'etre and become a mindless undead somewhere else like the wandering nobles who lost their minds through the lack of a true death and long lost of purpose which all ties very well with the concept of hollowing in my opinion. Coming to think of it: Why does anything in the Lands Between keeps reviving after Destined Death becomes unbound? 🤔
@victorprati7908 Probably because unbound destined death isn't the same as destined death forged into the Elden Ring. I guess, idk - to be fair, nothing really revives other than yourself even after destined death is unbound. Enemies will "respawn" but it's probably just a game mechanic or "time shenanigans"
Wow, this opened my eyes to something different: if we view Marika as the protagonist, the story of Elden Ring is a tragedy, where she is much like Oedipus. She saw fate in the stars, tried to make moves to override it, and ended up succumbing to it altogether. Some additional thoughts are that this really makes it seem like Melina has some tie to the Gloam Eyed Queen, if we did not already assume so. And then based on your comments, the player could be transported to Farum Azula by fate itself, or the stars. Additionally, the player probably embodies the rune of death once it is unbound, surviving the red flame but being able to harness its power, and perhaps this power is what allows us to kill Radagon and Elden Beast.
"My purpose, was long ago lost." The more I look into it, the more it seems like Melina is some incarnation of the Gloam-Eyed Queen. Whether she's the exact same individual who created the Godskins and wielded the Godslayer Greatsword is another question entirely, because we know how Elden Ring likes to treat individual identities!
I think the rune of death and destined death, while being the same thing have two different functions. One function being the rune as part of the elden ring. I think it's function in the ER is essentially to tie the body and spirit together so that when the body or spirit is killed the other one inherently also passes on. And as Destined death it is required to kill the spirit of gods and demigods. (I think what makes them as powerful as they are is that their spirits are made functionally immortal and only destined death, either wielded directly, or in the actual sense of them dying as their fate is capable of killing them) Maliketh wielded the black blade and the demigods he slew would all esentially be soulless like Godwyn. The cursemark at the beginning of the night of the black knives was meant to kill godwyn fully. Possibly to show the golden order that removing the rune does not protect them from fully dying and if Marika did have something to do with it having her son suffer in such a way (which was a result of Ranni's conspiracy to slay her body) would send her to the shattering. I think the seperation of soul and body is important to explain why the tarnished is able to slay the demi gods but requires the rune to kill the elden beast and fully burn the erdtree. The demigods body (through the power of their soul) is also immune in some way to being killed but one caveat that their body has which their soul does not is that the body can be slain by people that live without a fate of their own i.e. the tarnished. I believe the soul living on while the body is slain has simething to do with the powers of the great runes but I've not come to any real conclusions so far about that so thanks for reading my schizo rant lol
After this video, I have the feeling that the explanation of why we arrived at Farum Azula in such a random way was because fate itself led us there, and I don't mean it mataphorically or rhetorically or poetically or theoretically or in any other fancy way, I mean by FATE. Straight up.
I have a video planned that may explain why the Tarnished is transported to FA. Though it may just be because From wanted a way to warp you to the dungeon and needed to release the game! lol.
"But when Gideon glimpsed into the will of Queen Marika, he shuddered in fear. At the end that should not be." If it is the case that Gideon's boss fight dialogue is him articulating the will of Radagon-posing-as-Marika, perhaps this line refers instead to him genuinely understanding Marika's (new, opposed to Radagon) will -- that the Erdtree must burn after all.
9:25 The Age of the Erdtree is stated/declared after/upon the defeat of the Giants (Source: Mountaintop Sword Monument) . The earliest that the Golden Order is proven to exist is the Dragon War (Source: Golden Lightning Fortification incantation). Therefore the Godskin crisis must have occurred after the giants were put to the sword but before Lyndell's walls were breached
That could be true. The Elden Ring is described by Enia as "Root of the Golden Order." Also, Marika's dialogue in Altus Minor Erdtree Church, she says "We must look into the Golden Order." So I've always thought that Marika's rule and the Golden Order began at the same time, but refer to different things.
@@theeldenconspiracy9451Enia specifically says that the Rune of Death was "plucked from the Golden Order upon it's creation" this means two things 1 that "The Golden Order" is the name for the current version/assortment of runes of the Elden Ring and 2 that the removal of the Rune of Death (which the artbook Overture to Elden Ring says made the Demigods immortal) was what created the Golden Order. The reason it was unthinkable that Demigods could die during the Night of the Black Knives is the removal of the rune after the Godskins. I think if we go by incantation symbols for indication, we have The Age of the Crucible (self explanatory), The Age of The Erdtree/Abundance (The healing incantation) and finally the Age of the Golden Order. Some speculate that what cut short the Age of Abundance was the removal of the Rune of Death/Beginning of the Golden Order. Prior to that point the deaths of Demigods were still destined.
@@cyberninjazero5659 could also mean that the Rune itself was plucked when it was created. The creation part can refer to the creation of the Golden Order, or the Rune, and both give different meanings. If the Rune was plucked when it first appeared in the ring then it means runes are both constantly made and removed.
Any thoughts on the GEQ being Marika? I also happen to think the removal of the rune of death had something to do with stopping the erdtree from burning, but I had a hard time placing the order of events with certain environmental details at the top of the mountain of the giants. Such as the first church of marika is up there and for some reason the godskin swaddling cloth is in a cave right out front that church. It's just weird, and there so much that links these two characters that if they not one and the same the GEQ must be her daughter, more like. The thing is I happen to also subscribe to the theory that marika was cursed by the fell god, and idk I just feel like thats too much shit happening at the top of this mountain between like 4 possible characters (GEQ, marika, godfrey, & malikith) in the span of what, a moment? a day or a year? Almost an age passes after the war of the giants ends so was the GEQ big chilling both before and after the war for an age? Why would she kick start her rebellion an age after a god dies? If Marika was the GEQ then its probable the GEQ and godfrey put the giants to the sword and the fell god cursed the GEQ with like, a soul or fire or the color red, which carries the colors of the rune of death right there (black and red). I think maybe if any of this is possible that the curse of the fell god is what caused the GEQ to rebel and burn the erdtree. This may hold some credence with the lore surrounding the black flame monks and the GEQ's ties to the snake ppl of mt gelmir. The first church of queen markia at the top of the mountains might be where the GEQ was defeated by maliketh and when the rune of death was sealed away both the curse of the fell god and black flame (GEQ) left and marika was what emerged. Anyway this all speculative, so feel free to rip me a new one. If you happen to not think they the same id be curious to know your thoughts on that. Dig your channel btw, sorry for this blob of a comment.
I've considered that. I don't think it's as far-fetched as some people think. The one problem I see is the way Maliketh talks about Marika. If he was the one to defeat the GEQ in ancient times, there's no way he would act so deferential to her today. It just doesn't add up. Or maybe she stole Maliketh's soul or something? lol.
There are so many things that are evidentially contradicted here, I barely know where to start. But, for sake of time (and this is already going to be a massive post), I'll restrict myself to just the matter of the stars and fate. It's already been confirmed, by both items and events, that the reason fate is no longer written in the stars is because of Starscourge Radahn shackling the stars to his will. Like, there is no argument here, at all, whatsoever, because it's too well evidenced for argument, starting with the Starscourge Heirloom item description, _"The mightiest hero of the demigods confronted the falling stars alone-and thus did he crush them, his conquest sealing the very fate of the stars."_ Next, we have Sorceress Sellen's dialogue during Ranni's questline: _"The stars alter the fate of the Carian royal family. And the fate of your mistress, Ranni. But long ago, General Radahn challenged the swirling constellations, and in a crushing victory, arrested their cycles. Now, he is the force that repulses the stars. If General Radahn were to die, the stars would resume their movement. And so, too, would Ranni's destiny."_ In addition to that, we have War Councilor Iji's dialogue, also from Ranni's questline: _"The fate of the Carian royal family is guided by the stars. As is the fate of Lady Ranni, first heir in the Carian royal line. But General Radahn is the conqueror of the stars. Who stood up to the swirling constellations, halting their movement in a smashing victory. And so, if General Radahn were defeated, the stars would once again resume their movement. As would Lady Ranni's destiny."_ Later, Iji follows it up by stating, _"You've defeated General Radahn, unlocking the stars. [...] Thanks to you, Lady Ranni's fate once again stirs, and the path to Nokron has opened."_ While emphasis is placed more strongly on the Carian family being tied to the stars, it is never said that it is exclusive to them, and the idea that the Carian family would have their fate tied to the stars while everyone else in the world has their fate uniquely suborned by Marika is ridiculous. In fact, the idea that Radahn only halted fate for the Carians is outright refuted by Iji himself, stating: _"Now the festival is over, and General Radahn is defeated... Jerren's duties are finally fulfilled. [...] Now the time has come to remind him of an old promise made. With the stars of fate set into motion, a certain sorceress is dispossessed of her immortality... Finally, we can be rid of a longstanding Carian weed..."_ This outright confirms that Radahn shackled fate for Sellen too, despite her not being of the Carian royal family, it thus implying that all fates that would be governed by the stars were shackled by Radahn and by him alone. (Note: before someone tries to point out that the quote from Iji doesn't 100% match the dialogue from Fextralife, that's because Fextralife has a one letter typo on it, changing "stars" to "starts." If you search other sources for the quote, and if you go back and read the Japanese text of that line, it's very clear that it's supposed to be stars and not starts.)
What you pointed out isn't really a contradiction. This is what makes interpreting the lore in Souls games so confusing. Certain events/characters/themes are repeated, giving the impression that they must be related somehow, yet the game gives no explicit evidence one way or the other. This adds to a weird sense of redundancy in the story. It is true that Radahn arrested the cycles of the stars somehow and put the fate of the Carian royal family in "stasis." This happened at some point after the wars with Liurnia, after Radagon had been married to Rennala. But there is another event, much earlier in the timeline. This would be the sealing of the Rune of Destined Death, which involved Marika, Maliketh, and possibly the Goam-Eyed-Queen. Destiny is a very similar concept to fate, and the sealing of this rune implies preventing a death that was 'predestined.' Not every instance of "Challenging Fate" has to be attributed to Radahn. Also, individual stars affecting individual people is not out of the question, as this is a belief held in astrology irl. So it is possible Marika sealed Destined Death to change her own fate, and Radahn challenged the stars to change his family's.
@@theeldenconspiracy9451 That the confinement of Destined Death happened earlier in the timeline isn't in dispute. But the idea that Marika somehow performed a timeline split by confining Death still _is,_ for multiple reasons. Firstly because, despite its name, we can be sure that the "destined" part of Destined Death isn't meant in the usual definition "of the fated series of events," for the very simple reason that we actually see the power of Destined Death being used. The Black Blade and Black Knives don't somehow transport you to a different timeline where you meet your predestined fate, but do something much more existential in nature, something that goes beyond mere bodily death. And we can further prove this by virtue of the fact that Godwyn is dead in soul, with his spirit never returning to the Erdtree, and it never being affected by the eclipse. The implication here seems to be that his very soul has been entirely obliterated, or else that the final end of his soul's existence was delivered unto him. Further, the idea of Destined Death being similar in function to preordained fate actually makes the entire rest of the lore more complicated and perplexing, because suddenly the godslaying black flame of the Gloam-Eyed Queen makes no sense; if the power of Destined Death is the power of life's natural conclusion, then that would seem to carry the implication that all the deaths inflicted by the godslaying black flame (which we know draws its fearsome power from the Rune of Death) were preordained, that the fate of all those slain in this way was always written and only when Death was plucked from the Elden Ring did the death of the demigods become a more fluid matter. Additionally, what other evidence do we have of a timeline split? The assorted statements that astrology now fails to predict fate are all most explainable by Radahn, a known champion of the Golden Order who explicitly halted the stars and ended the influence of fate. The only time we have direct evidence of a defiance of star-ordained fate in any form that isn't derived from Radahn is with the destruction of the Black Moon, and that one seems to predate everything else by quite some time while also being unrelated to the Rune of Death.
@@InfinityOrNone Well, if the power of Destined Death has nothing to do with destiny, then that would make the naming of the rune arbitrary, no? It's clear from evidence that the Erdtree should have burned a LONG time ago. From Melina's dialogue, "My purpose was long ago lost." to the ash around Leyndell streets, and the partially burned state of the current Erdtree. Also the fact that the burning of the Erdtree shows up in prophesies which the prophets aren't supposed to talk about. The perfumers viewed fire itself as anathema up until the shattering, and they predate the current Golden Order priests. We know Marika Sealing the Rune of Death was a part of delaying this event, because when you unleash the rune, the Erdtree burns. This is also why Marika wanted to confine the Flame of Ruin, because she probably saw a similar prophesy. Whether you want to call this a "time paradox" or a "timeline split" or something else, is really up to you.
With death being bound.. it kind of made The Lands Between a type of hell though didn’t it? Every living thing in this world is miserable and suffering, yet can’t truly die. 😮
Ranni mentions a 1000 year voyage in her ending. Could that be referring to the seperation of time line you have mentioned? With her ending we destroy the current time line and go back to the original time line where erdtree was burned. Maybe the dlc teaser is from that-originaal time line.
Destined Death is separate and not equal to the Mending Rune of Death, yet its item description says it, “Golden Order was created by confining Destined Death. Thus, this new Order will be one of Death restored.” So you find to one half on Ranni’s corpse and the other is from Fia, all events taking place after the Golden Order was created. You burn the Erdtree (either by the Frenzied Flame or through Melina) and you still can’t get into the tree without releasing Destined Death. Also, if you follow the Frenzied Flame ending, who’s bringing you Destined Death??
These are all inconsistencies I've been thinking about for a long time. It all smacks of changes in story mid-development. The Rune of Destined Death is for sure the rune that is unleashed when we defeat Maliketh. The Cursemark/Mending Rune is something separate, and yet related, as you said. Fia says that she "gestates the rune." implying that it's the birth of something new. The good news, I think, is that the dlc should clear this up, as Godwyn is very much related to this "Shadow of the Erdtree" concept.
Hero's Rune tells us "There were once heroes who walked the battlefields, abundantly blessed by the Erdtree itself, who upon earning their honor simply died." I suppose this has to do with destined death. Suppose it's just a fictional form of mortality where you die not of old age but just because your time is up. Who decides? Maybe it's a form of grace, or it is like grace. Godfrey seemed to spontaneously lose grace at the end of his conquests. Perhaps he would otherwise have died there and then, had destined death been in effect.
Never looked at this item description but what I find interesting is that it seems like a little nudge to the Undead in Dark Souls who turn into hollows when they fulfill they destiny (or lose it).
Well, you've got my like for considering Order not as metaphorical super rule world has to obey, but just as events queue. I've said before and shall say it again - FS games lore should be read as literal as possible, without any deep metaphysical diving.
Also, as I interpret it, when Destined Death is unbound we (the Tarnished) are infused with the Rune itself, similar to how Radagon and Marika are infused with the Elden Ring. We already do this with the other Great Runes. After being infused with the rune, we are teleported to Lyndell and burn the city from within, and we wake up amongst the ashes unharmed. Much like the Fire’s Deadly Sin incantation.
This is how we are able to permanently wield the power of Destined Death, without succumbing to permanent death ourselves.
And thats my silly lore reason why permadeath isnt a mechanic after the Erdtree burns with Destined Death.
I always chocked it up to protagonist armor. The player seems to be the only Tarnished who is guided by Grace, and thus is able to revive. Godfrey seems to recieve Grace in his intro cinematic, but he seems to die a real death, so I don't know.
@@theeldenconspiracy9451 I'm pretty sure this whole reviving conundrum boils down to the old hollowing concept where as long you have a purpose will never go hollow.
In Elden Ring when the Dung Eater, Fia, and Goldmask fulfil their purposes (create a mending rune) they die (yes I'm implying that D kills an already dead Fia lol), you can see that even Rogier who doesn't see the guidance of grace anymore doesn't die a real death at the bottom of Stormveil Castle. So going back to Godfrey I think that once he's bested by the protagonist he gets ridden of grace, loses his raison d'etre and become a mindless undead somewhere else like the wandering nobles who lost their minds through the lack of a true death and long lost of purpose which all ties very well with the concept of hollowing in my opinion. Coming to think of it: Why does anything in the Lands Between keeps reviving after Destined Death becomes unbound? 🤔
@victorprati7908 Probably because unbound destined death isn't the same as destined death forged into the Elden Ring. I guess, idk - to be fair, nothing really revives other than yourself even after destined death is unbound. Enemies will "respawn" but it's probably just a game mechanic or "time shenanigans"
Wow, this opened my eyes to something different: if we view Marika as the protagonist, the story of Elden Ring is a tragedy, where she is much like Oedipus. She saw fate in the stars, tried to make moves to override it, and ended up succumbing to it altogether.
Some additional thoughts are that this really makes it seem like Melina has some tie to the Gloam Eyed Queen, if we did not already assume so. And then based on your comments, the player could be transported to Farum Azula by fate itself, or the stars. Additionally, the player probably embodies the rune of death once it is unbound, surviving the red flame but being able to harness its power, and perhaps this power is what allows us to kill Radagon and Elden Beast.
"My purpose, was long ago lost." The more I look into it, the more it seems like Melina is some incarnation of the Gloam-Eyed Queen.
Whether she's the exact same individual who created the Godskins and wielded the Godslayer Greatsword is another question entirely, because we know how Elden Ring likes to treat individual identities!
S tier channel actually. Deserves WAY more attention
engagement.
Wow! Also engagement!
I think the rune of death and destined death, while being the same thing have two different functions. One function being the rune as part of the elden ring. I think it's function in the ER is essentially to tie the body and spirit together so that when the body or spirit is killed the other one inherently also passes on. And as Destined death it is required to kill the spirit of gods and demigods. (I think what makes them as powerful as they are is that their spirits are made functionally immortal and only destined death, either wielded directly, or in the actual sense of them dying as their fate is capable of killing them)
Maliketh wielded the black blade and the demigods he slew would all esentially be soulless like Godwyn. The cursemark at the beginning of the night of the black knives was meant to kill godwyn fully. Possibly to show the golden order that removing the rune does not protect them from fully dying and if Marika did have something to do with it having her son suffer in such a way (which was a result of Ranni's conspiracy to slay her body) would send her to the shattering.
I think the seperation of soul and body is important to explain why the tarnished is able to slay the demi gods but requires the rune to kill the elden beast and fully burn the erdtree.
The demigods body (through the power of their soul) is also immune in some way to being killed but one caveat that their body has which their soul does not is that the body can be slain by people that live without a fate of their own i.e. the tarnished.
I believe the soul living on while the body is slain has simething to do with the powers of the great runes but I've not come to any real conclusions so far about that so thanks for reading my schizo rant lol
After this video, I have the feeling that the explanation of why we arrived at Farum Azula in such a random way was because fate itself led us there, and I don't mean it mataphorically or rhetorically or poetically or theoretically or in any other fancy way, I mean by FATE. Straight up.
what do u mean by fate straight up ? because faith is a very methaphorical / theoretical / poetical concept ?
I have a video planned that may explain why the Tarnished is transported to FA.
Though it may just be because From wanted a way to warp you to the dungeon and needed to release the game! lol.
@@GoulaLegamer It's a movie reference
@@GoulaLegamerA death reference
"But when Gideon glimpsed into the will of Queen Marika, he shuddered in fear.
At the end that should not be."
If it is the case that Gideon's boss fight dialogue is him articulating the will of Radagon-posing-as-Marika, perhaps this line refers instead to him genuinely understanding Marika's (new, opposed to Radagon) will -- that the Erdtree must burn after all.
Loving these vids, keep it up!
Just want to let you know the audio quality on this one is way better than your Iji video. Good job at getting better!
Thank you!
Great work!
9:25 The Age of the Erdtree is stated/declared after/upon the defeat of the Giants (Source: Mountaintop Sword Monument) . The earliest that the Golden Order is proven to exist is the Dragon War (Source: Golden Lightning Fortification incantation). Therefore the Godskin crisis must have occurred after the giants were put to the sword but before Lyndell's walls were breached
That could be true. The Elden Ring is described by Enia as "Root of the Golden Order." Also, Marika's dialogue in Altus Minor Erdtree Church, she says "We must look into the Golden Order." So I've always thought that Marika's rule and the Golden Order began at the same time, but refer to different things.
@@theeldenconspiracy9451Enia specifically says that the Rune of Death was "plucked from the Golden Order upon it's creation" this means two things 1 that "The Golden Order" is the name for the current version/assortment of runes of the Elden Ring and 2 that the removal of the Rune of Death (which the artbook Overture to Elden Ring says made the Demigods immortal) was what created the Golden Order.
The reason it was unthinkable that Demigods could die during the Night of the Black Knives is the removal of the rune after the Godskins. I think if we go by incantation symbols for indication, we have The Age of the Crucible (self explanatory), The Age of The Erdtree/Abundance (The healing incantation) and finally the Age of the Golden Order. Some speculate that what cut short the Age of Abundance was the removal of the Rune of Death/Beginning of the Golden Order. Prior to that point the deaths of Demigods were still destined.
@@cyberninjazero5659 could also mean that the Rune itself was plucked when it was created. The creation part can refer to the creation of the Golden Order, or the Rune, and both give different meanings. If the Rune was plucked when it first appeared in the ring then it means runes are both constantly made and removed.
Any thoughts on the GEQ being Marika? I also happen to think the removal of the rune of death had something to do with stopping the erdtree from burning, but I had a hard time placing the order of events with certain environmental details at the top of the mountain of the giants. Such as the first church of marika is up there and for some reason the godskin swaddling cloth is in a cave right out front that church. It's just weird, and there so much that links these two characters that if they not one and the same the GEQ must be her daughter, more like.
The thing is I happen to also subscribe to the theory that marika was cursed by the fell god, and idk I just feel like thats too much shit happening at the top of this mountain between like 4 possible characters (GEQ, marika, godfrey, & malikith) in the span of what, a moment? a day or a year? Almost an age passes after the war of the giants ends so was the GEQ big chilling both before and after the war for an age? Why would she kick start her rebellion an age after a god dies? If Marika was the GEQ then its probable the GEQ and godfrey put the giants to the sword and the fell god cursed the GEQ with like, a soul or fire or the color red, which carries the colors of the rune of death right there (black and red). I think maybe if any of this is possible that the curse of the fell god is what caused the GEQ to rebel and burn the erdtree. This may hold some credence with the lore surrounding the black flame monks and the GEQ's ties to the snake ppl of mt gelmir.
The first church of queen markia at the top of the mountains might be where the GEQ was defeated by maliketh and when the rune of death was sealed away both the curse of the fell god and black flame (GEQ) left and marika was what emerged.
Anyway this all speculative, so feel free to rip me a new one. If you happen to not think they the same id be curious to know your thoughts on that. Dig your channel btw, sorry for this blob of a comment.
I've considered that. I don't think it's as far-fetched as some people think. The one problem I see is the way Maliketh talks about Marika. If he was the one to defeat the GEQ in ancient times, there's no way he would act so deferential to her today. It just doesn't add up.
Or maybe she stole Maliketh's soul or something? lol.
There are so many things that are evidentially contradicted here, I barely know where to start. But, for sake of time (and this is already going to be a massive post), I'll restrict myself to just the matter of the stars and fate.
It's already been confirmed, by both items and events, that the reason fate is no longer written in the stars is because of Starscourge Radahn shackling the stars to his will. Like, there is no argument here, at all, whatsoever, because it's too well evidenced for argument, starting with the Starscourge Heirloom item description, _"The mightiest hero of the demigods confronted the falling stars alone-and thus did he crush them, his conquest sealing the very fate of the stars."_ Next, we have Sorceress Sellen's dialogue during Ranni's questline: _"The stars alter the fate of the Carian royal family. And the fate of your mistress, Ranni. But long ago, General Radahn challenged the swirling constellations, and in a crushing victory, arrested their cycles. Now, he is the force that repulses the stars. If General Radahn were to die, the stars would resume their movement. And so, too, would Ranni's destiny."_ In addition to that, we have War Councilor Iji's dialogue, also from Ranni's questline: _"The fate of the Carian royal family is guided by the stars. As is the fate of Lady Ranni, first heir in the Carian royal line. But General Radahn is the conqueror of the stars. Who stood up to the swirling constellations, halting their movement in a smashing victory. And so, if General Radahn were defeated, the stars would once again resume their movement. As would Lady Ranni's destiny."_ Later, Iji follows it up by stating, _"You've defeated General Radahn, unlocking the stars. [...] Thanks to you, Lady Ranni's fate once again stirs, and the path to Nokron has opened."_
While emphasis is placed more strongly on the Carian family being tied to the stars, it is never said that it is exclusive to them, and the idea that the Carian family would have their fate tied to the stars while everyone else in the world has their fate uniquely suborned by Marika is ridiculous. In fact, the idea that Radahn only halted fate for the Carians is outright refuted by Iji himself, stating: _"Now the festival is over, and General Radahn is defeated... Jerren's duties are finally fulfilled. [...] Now the time has come to remind him of an old promise made. With the stars of fate set into motion, a certain sorceress is dispossessed of her immortality... Finally, we can be rid of a longstanding Carian weed..."_ This outright confirms that Radahn shackled fate for Sellen too, despite her not being of the Carian royal family, it thus implying that all fates that would be governed by the stars were shackled by Radahn and by him alone.
(Note: before someone tries to point out that the quote from Iji doesn't 100% match the dialogue from Fextralife, that's because Fextralife has a one letter typo on it, changing "stars" to "starts." If you search other sources for the quote, and if you go back and read the Japanese text of that line, it's very clear that it's supposed to be stars and not starts.)
What you pointed out isn't really a contradiction. This is what makes interpreting the lore in Souls games so confusing. Certain events/characters/themes are repeated, giving the impression that they must be related somehow, yet the game gives no explicit evidence one way or the other. This adds to a weird sense of redundancy in the story.
It is true that Radahn arrested the cycles of the stars somehow and put the fate of the Carian royal family in "stasis." This happened at some point after the wars with Liurnia, after Radagon had been married to Rennala.
But there is another event, much earlier in the timeline. This would be the sealing of the Rune of Destined Death, which involved Marika, Maliketh, and possibly the Goam-Eyed-Queen.
Destiny is a very similar concept to fate, and the sealing of this rune implies preventing a death that was 'predestined.' Not every instance of "Challenging Fate" has to be attributed to Radahn.
Also, individual stars affecting individual people is not out of the question, as this is a belief held in astrology irl. So it is possible Marika sealed Destined Death to change her own fate, and Radahn challenged the stars to change his family's.
@@theeldenconspiracy9451 That the confinement of Destined Death happened earlier in the timeline isn't in dispute. But the idea that Marika somehow performed a timeline split by confining Death still _is,_ for multiple reasons. Firstly because, despite its name, we can be sure that the "destined" part of Destined Death isn't meant in the usual definition "of the fated series of events," for the very simple reason that we actually see the power of Destined Death being used. The Black Blade and Black Knives don't somehow transport you to a different timeline where you meet your predestined fate, but do something much more existential in nature, something that goes beyond mere bodily death. And we can further prove this by virtue of the fact that Godwyn is dead in soul, with his spirit never returning to the Erdtree, and it never being affected by the eclipse. The implication here seems to be that his very soul has been entirely obliterated, or else that the final end of his soul's existence was delivered unto him. Further, the idea of Destined Death being similar in function to preordained fate actually makes the entire rest of the lore more complicated and perplexing, because suddenly the godslaying black flame of the Gloam-Eyed Queen makes no sense; if the power of Destined Death is the power of life's natural conclusion, then that would seem to carry the implication that all the deaths inflicted by the godslaying black flame (which we know draws its fearsome power from the Rune of Death) were preordained, that the fate of all those slain in this way was always written and only when Death was plucked from the Elden Ring did the death of the demigods become a more fluid matter. Additionally, what other evidence do we have of a timeline split? The assorted statements that astrology now fails to predict fate are all most explainable by Radahn, a known champion of the Golden Order who explicitly halted the stars and ended the influence of fate. The only time we have direct evidence of a defiance of star-ordained fate in any form that isn't derived from Radahn is with the destruction of the Black Moon, and that one seems to predate everything else by quite some time while also being unrelated to the Rune of Death.
@@InfinityOrNone Well, if the power of Destined Death has nothing to do with destiny, then that would make the naming of the rune arbitrary, no?
It's clear from evidence that the Erdtree should have burned a LONG time ago. From Melina's dialogue, "My purpose was long ago lost." to the ash around Leyndell streets, and the partially burned state of the current Erdtree. Also the fact that the burning of the Erdtree shows up in prophesies which the prophets aren't supposed to talk about. The perfumers viewed fire itself as anathema up until the shattering, and they predate the current Golden Order priests.
We know Marika Sealing the Rune of Death was a part of delaying this event, because when you unleash the rune, the Erdtree burns. This is also why Marika wanted to confine the Flame of Ruin, because she probably saw a similar prophesy.
Whether you want to call this a "time paradox" or a "timeline split" or something else, is really up to you.
Good shit my guy
With death being bound.. it kind of made The Lands Between a type of hell though didn’t it? Every living thing in this world is miserable and suffering, yet can’t truly die. 😮
Aye the soul can grow weary and need a rest before the next go at life that's how see it anyway
Ranni mentions a 1000 year voyage in her ending. Could that be referring to the seperation of time line you have mentioned? With her ending we destroy the current time line and go back to the original time line where erdtree was burned. Maybe the dlc teaser is from that-originaal time line.
Destined Death is separate and not equal to the Mending Rune of Death, yet its item description says it, “Golden Order was created by confining Destined Death. Thus, this new Order will be one of Death restored.” So you find to one half on Ranni’s corpse and the other is from Fia, all events taking place after the Golden Order was created. You burn the Erdtree (either by the Frenzied Flame or through Melina) and you still can’t get into the tree without releasing Destined Death. Also, if you follow the Frenzied Flame ending, who’s bringing you Destined Death??
These are all inconsistencies I've been thinking about for a long time. It all smacks of changes in story mid-development.
The Rune of Destined Death is for sure the rune that is unleashed when we defeat Maliketh. The Cursemark/Mending Rune is something separate, and yet related, as you said. Fia says that she "gestates the rune." implying that it's the birth of something new.
The good news, I think, is that the dlc should clear this up, as Godwyn is very much related to this "Shadow of the Erdtree" concept.
Hero's Rune tells us "There were once heroes who walked the battlefields, abundantly blessed by the Erdtree itself, who upon earning their honor simply died."
I suppose this has to do with destined death. Suppose it's just a fictional form of mortality where you die not of old age but just because your time is up. Who decides? Maybe it's a form of grace, or it is like grace. Godfrey seemed to spontaneously lose grace at the end of his conquests. Perhaps he would otherwise have died there and then, had destined death been in effect.
Never looked at this item description but what I find interesting is that it seems like a little nudge to the Undead in Dark Souls who turn into hollows when they fulfill they destiny (or lose it).
🔥
Maybe an x-files sounding intro would be appropriate for some of your videos as well!
Well, you've got my like for considering Order not as metaphorical super rule world has to obey, but just as events queue.
I've said before and shall say it again - FS games lore should be read as literal as possible, without any deep metaphysical diving.
Thanks! Though I think there is room for figurative interpretation.
Ratatoskr would choke you to death for that
Who is this gloam eyed queen