QUICK NOTE: As of the DLC it was revealed that my previous theory about Marika creating the finger was incorrect, so take some of the info around that with a grain of salt.
Honestly, given what we do now know about the Two Fingers and their actual “Mother,” the rest of the theory can still follow given our new understanding. They were defective, and both Marika and Ranni wanted to escape their corrupted guidance.
Regarding the sword by Miquella, I think that the "please die a true death" was after Miquella seeing that his brother did not die and was in a sort of limbo. So since he didnt die a proper death (from the Erdtree or a real death) and he was a rotting, spreading corpse, Miquella was wishing he died for real, to end that undead state Godwyn is in.
It is possible. The reason I considered it being made before hand was because of the prayer sounding like it's in a present/future tense and that it was placed in the Hero's Grave, to me that puts them together. Again, that is speculation as we don't know for sure.
@@elricmon2099 Oh totally! I remember putting the Dark Souls story together and thinking it was complex and difficult. Elden Ring has brought the storytelling to a new level, so many questions, so many potential outcomes, I love it!
DLC SPOILERS with the ending known, he calls 'Lord brother' Radhan not Godwyn the showr might have been created after Malenia and Radhans battle when he lost his mind
@@wawrzys9824 Its hard to say, I think it's a good point though! It's just hard to say when Miquella left for the Realm of Shadow. It is possible that he refers to all of his male siblings as Lord Brother. I'll definitely look into this again and see how it works out.
My theory has always been that Ranni orchestrated these events entirely to create her own age. I still don't think Marika had anything to do with it since the whole Radagon/Marika thing makes me question how she'd plan that, and given that the finger reader crones are unreliable narrators at best. I still believe Ranni knew 100% what she was doing and betrayed everyone at that point, placing the blame squarely on the Black Knives for the entirety of the plot. The last thing her plan hinged on was someone like The Tarnished. Someone who could take her form which did not have the power to go to the places it needed to go, and to gather the things she needed to finish her plot. Iji couldn't, he's no warrior, Blaidd is literally incapable of betraying the Golden Order, and Seluvis is a conniving rat.
I used to think this same thing and she was very evil which is why every playthrough I put a ring on net finger but this guy's theory really got me. I think it might be true.
Quite the opposite. Marika planned to wed Ranni to Godwyn and then sacrifice Ranni as the next kindling maiden, taking Marika’s place. This is why Ranni revolted and then divested her soul from her flesh.
What I would think is that Marika had nothing to do with the night of the black knives, yes, it was Ranni who planned the strike to avoid being controlled by the greater will, but there how's Miquella involved in all this? I think Miquella was not very fond of Marika, he actually could have lend aid to the tarnished to end Marika's golden order (giving away torrent to us), Melina might be the Gloam eyed Queen who was betrayed by Marika/Radagon (when they set Seduction in the last trailer I wonder if it was Radagon who seduced the gloam eyed Queen to take her down and her Elden Ring), so she might be part of the equation. During the first Elden Ring trailer we see Marika destroying the Elden Ring, probably that's the gloam eyed Queen Elden Ring to pluck the rune of death out of it, then Radagon trying to amend it when Godwin was killed, we see how him being unable to mend it gets frustrated (almost like crying in the process). What do you think?
Marika brings the tarnished back to life to bring in a new age. It’s through her that we are given the guidance of grace. I don’t think it’s too unreasonable to think she gave her favorite kids a chance too idk. Too much coincidences and crossing over in the lore for marika not to have been involved in the notbk
The thing is though Malaketh is talking about the shattering of the elden ring as the betrayal (of the fingers) hes "gone crazy" like all shadowbound beasts when their emperyan goes against the Fingers/GW. Marika went against the fingers, thus he is betrayed.
In DLC ,we learned that who one to become God must abandon his/her her body . I think they want to do this on Godwyn by killing his body . And Godwyn become God or consort for Rani, but Rani act first and decive them all .
Another thing because you are making a good point, with the golden epitath being a possible sign miquella was involved would make it now at least 5 of the gods involved. Ranni, marika, miquella, and godwyn are explained here but rykkard has the blasphemous claw too. The only ones we cant directly tie to the night of the black knives are malenia and radahn.
I have a feeling that Radahn and Ranni had a falling out when Radahn froze Ranni's fate with the stars. Could be an explanation as to why. Not sure why Malenia would be left out except for maybe the worry about how the Rot could effect things.
@@Dekuzek if miquella is involved malenia most likely followed but all I'm saying is we don't have direct evidence of it. I just like how it's starting to feel like a murder on the Oriental express event where everyone was responsible for or involved in the night of the black knifes
Hmmm… maybe Godwyn, whom we can safely assume was a badass formidable warrior, didn’t sacrifice himself. Maybe he was put to sleep and then got backstabbed. 🤔 I still really like your interpretation of the events. Him sacrificing himself as the ultimate act of love and devotion is plausible. Great video!
Not bad. 2 things: 1) might wanna rectify Marika creating the Two Fingers after the DLC revealed Metyr. Though it is possible the Two Fingers only appeared with Marika's ascension to godhood, as they're different compared to primal finger creepers in that the Two-Fingers have hair. It's likely that Metyr created the Two-Fingers specifically for Marika & her Golden Order. 2) there was no way Marika could've sent Ranni's Two Fingers into space because the stars are beyond her jurisdiction. Her powers revolve around Order, and whatever allowances Metyr gave her, as Marika was a conspirator & puppet to the mother of fingers the whole time. Other than that, you bring up a great point about the plot of sacrificing Godwyn to re-introduce destined death to the world by becoming a god of death himself, which ended very badly
There is one way for Marika to halt the fingers from ever arriving; Radahn. Hes a golden order loyalist and he freezes the cosmos, and Ranni cannot kill her fingies until hes dead.
Except Metyr didn't create specific fingers for Marika Metyr after giving birth to the fingers, abandoned them all, she was broken long before they were born and the fingers inherited this broken nature and it was twisted into a weird obsession for a mother figure; the fingers themselves could no longer be in contact with their mother as Metyr hid herself away the only fingers you fight in the finger birthing grounds are the fingers she gives birth to at that moment and she's basically has gone insane as Ymir said because she wants to contact the greater will who Metyr believes at this point had abandoned them forever but desperately calls out to it. The two fingers were already the two fingers when Marika met them considering hiw the fingers looked and how they moved I can see how even the Hornsets might have worshipped the fingers as well as hvaing a connection to the scadutree and spiral afterall even the spiral image can be seen being used by Metyr no doubt the two fingers themselves saw this as an opportunity. That or the Fingers were the ones who spread the religion of the Hornsets and Marika was so absorbed in her Vengeance she didn't notice it as the Fingers were truly the best Manipulators in the story, they attached themselves to the Empyreans and manipulate their destiny whatever the men
I always liked how you could do Ranni and Rogier's quests in tandem, and Ranni never thought twice about teaming up with you, even though you could've betrayed her for all she knew, but because of her ability to look at things pragmatically, she worked with you anyway. This theory supports that.
My thinking was she didn’t want to kill her brothers. Morgott and Mohg were out of her reach. Assuming she even knew of them (they were more of a secret), Mohg is off serving the Formless Mother and Morgott was living under the alias of Margitt. No way she could get to Miquella or Malenia since the latter protects the former. The only option would be Godwyn. She probably should’ve chosen Rykard. That dude is weird. But he’s her full brother, not half or step sibling.
I should have mentioned it in the video but part of the theory is because we know that the Black Knives killed more than just Godwyn (he was just the first). So my theory was going based on the idea that she technically could have used any of those random Dem-Gods as well. I agree that Godwyn may also make sense from the named Demi-Gods, but there is also evidence to show otherwise, interesting nonetheless
I also like to imagine she has a sort of vengefulness toward the golden order, as her alliance with her mother, Rennala, is pretty clear and Radagon is the one that broke her. Daddy issues being a solid bonus when deciding whether or not to go with the blue waifu
It's one thing I didn't like about Fia's ending. You don't actually solve the problem of death blight, you just create an order where those who live in death are accepted, which doesn't really solve the issue.
@@ssj-rose4572 I'd rather sacrifice your incultured and uneducated arse. Despite what she did, Ranni had a very good reason. Gods(inner and outer), demigods, and even certain mortals have messed with the Order of things. Just like Goldmask, Ranni aims to remedy that. People born and die as they should, no more crazy abberations, no more curse upon omens, no more Shattering wars, no more madness, no more withering curse of being unable to die. The order is now untouchable, unseen, unheard, untamperable by neither gods, nor mortals. That's what her ending is. But localisers botched everything and mistranslated it. As well as most stuff in the game.
you cooked w this one bro, this changed my outlook on the lore heavily, i wonder now if miquellas whole goal is that he wanted godwyn buried in the hero’s grave, but when his death was deemed improper he was buried underneath and that pissed miquella off since his prayer became obsolete and his brother now disgraced, he then starts enacting his plan against the erdtree having to divest his flesh to somehow contact godwyns soul and resurrect him for a true death, a fight against our tarnished.
Thanks I'm glad you liked it! I think Miquella's character has so much potential since we know so little about him. I can't wait to find out more about him in the DLC. I have a feeling that Miquella's grand plan is to try and find a way to revert the Lands Between back to a time before Marika and the Greater Will took over hoping that it will remove the influence of the Outer Gods, helping Malenia and maybe Godwyn (If we think that the Outer God of Death is causing Godwyn's curse)
@@kysonmiller5592 Yeah, there is a few mentions of it. Ghostflame, the Deathrite Birds, Helphen Steeple and Rancorcall all reference back to the god of/servants of Death.
I think that ranni, Godwin, and miquella conspired to create the night of black knives and bring back true death. But ranni betrayed the plan by marking herself with the other half of the curse mark. I believe she hid her two fingers away prior to the night to protect them during her bodiless absence until things shook out and she could take them out herself. The rest is just a waiting game until she could push the right tarnished in her plans direction, which is why she’s present at the first church.
Could be! I personally think Marika has to be involved somehow with the stealing of death from Maliketh. There is too much connecting her to a betrayal of him for her not to have been involved. However, I did have a consideration that Marika stole death for her own purpose and someone stole a piece from her, however we don't have any evidence of this so I see option 1 being more likely.
@@StopJerkingOff yes, there was another lore video pointing that out. Also, her weapon is shaped like the black knives and she knows a lot about destined death. Then there is the whole, she is the gloam eyed queen, discussion because of the frenzied flame ending. Or even the theory that she is another manifestation of Marika, Messmer or even Miquella.
this is the best video regarding the night of the black knives on the internet! also you can see that after the night of the black knifes the sovereign alliance couldn't work because of the involvement of more than one demi god in the plot, i think this shows the antagonistic relationship that the demi-god have towards each other in the shattering war, so marika by involving part of her children in the plot of the knives made the shattering war end in an stalemate to let the tarnished come back to the lands between as per the abandonment of the greater will as in the knight of the black knives was the first domino to fall and the last being tarnished being risen that's a part of my theory about the night of the black knives that wasn't in the video other than this your theory is exactly what i expect from a G.R.R.M and Miazaki writing a hidden plot in the game for us to unravel, as in a murder mystery us and rogier are trying to solve as sherlock and watson .
Glad you enjoyed! These complex and incomplete stories have been the most exciting to research and theorize about! While I hope we get more answers in the DLC I look forward to the additional questions that will come up!
At first, I was staunchly against Marika being involved in the Night of the Black Knives, let alone Godwyn, but this video has made me rethink my position a bit. Hopefully, the DLC will give us more information regarding Marika, Godwyn, & Miquella, but I do find this theory interesting.
This is an interesting theory although I'd like to add that Ranni's brother Rykard was involved in some way of the plan and knew about it and I'd like to know how he fits into all this. She even had Rykard prepared to seemingly fight maliketh over this. You can find this information out directly from an in game item the blasphemous claw which description directly states "A slab of rock engraved with traces of the Rune of Death. Can deflect the power of the Black Blade. On the night of the dire plot, Ranni rewarded Praetor Rykard with these traces. Should the coming trespass one day transpire, they would serve as a last-resort foil, allowing Rykard to challenge Maliketh the Black Blade, the black beast of Destined Death."
One problem with Marika being involved with the Night of the Black knives: it seems to be out of Character. In light of the dlc: we learn of her origin, how she lost her entire village and everyone she cared about. How is this relevant? The removal of the Rune of Death seems to be a trauma response. She doesn't want to lose anyone she cares about. We also learn in the story trailer that the knight of the black knives pushed Marika to the brink and probably shattered the elden ring as a result of that. Godwyns death would've been a triple whammy on said trauma: 1) the possibility of losing people he cares about now exists. 2) her Son died. 3) Godwyn is now a giant death Cancer spreading death blight throughout the lands between and shadow realm. Spawning those who live in death Edit: oh i see this is pre-dlc. Theres alot of holes poked into this theory thanks to the dlc
I do agree, the DLC changed my perspective on a few things and I would like to revisit this theory soon. I won't say too much now since I haven't given too much thought to it with the DLC info in mind but. The DLC tries to paint Marika in 2 lights, One side is kindness. With the Minor Erdtree incant, it mentions 'the kindness of gold without order' and I think this is hinting towards Marika being the 'kindness' and Radagon being the 'order.' (Similar to Miquella & St. Trina) the second is as a wrathful and merciless god, as we can see by the Scadutree Avatar Remembrance where it says 'The Scadutree is the shadow of the Erdtree. Born of dark notions that bear no sense of Order.' Pointing to this action also being Marika alone, and not Radagon. I agree with you that the removal of death is an emotional reaction to losing her people and the suffering inflicted upon her by the Hornsent. I think that we can see how Marika didn't just want justice for her people but to try and create a world without suffering, with her Age of plenty, her personal blessings, and removing death was part of that. However, I do think Marika found the fault in her order as a lack of death has it's own problems. I do agree that the Shattering was majorly influenced by the Night of the black knives, but I think that the breaking point was not Godwyn dying (as I mention in the video I think this was a plan amongst everyone) but it was the fact that Godwyn did not die a true death that sent her over the edge. Godwyn being the only non-cursed child, becoming cursed. That's a working theory right now, and I'm not entirely stuck on the theory being true, just brainstorming.
Something important is that Godwwyn was not the only demigod that fell in the night of the black knives If you watch the first trailer Ranni says demigods in plural and then you see the multiple mausuleums
100%, that was originally what started me on this theory simply because Ranni choosing to kill Godwyn seemed targeted when she didn't have to. So I started looking into it and put these pieces together.
This sounds like one of those movie gags where Marika told Ranni who told Miquella who told Godwyn who agreed with Ranni who told the Black Knife Assassains who scared Miquella who told Marika and and betrayed Malekith who was not in the know of any of this
My head cannon is that Marika wanted out herself but Godwyn got caught on the throne. I think marika was meant to be ended. Still trying to replace herself with radagon who she sent to make a new divine gate and become a god on his own. He was absolved of this mission and became guided by the moon. She gave up. Shattered the ring.. she has all power but cant protect the people she loves. She then tells the kids hey go do what u gone do but if you dont make anything of urself u will be sacrifice to whomever does rise.
My general theory (which is part of a recent epiphany I had about the lore entirely) about godwin’s death is - Like how radagon is the other half of marika, godwin was the other half of ranni. So to stop the greater will from taking full control of her like that of marika with radagon she devised a plan to make that impossible; and to stop the flow of the dew by poisoning the erdtree with godwin’s body and slow down the response time of the two fingers to the greater will. With marika, realizing that the greater will was more of a curse than an boon. Indirectly aided in the plan by giving access to crumbling farum azula where malaketh is and giving the newmen women who were close to her to become the black knifes. With her killing one of the knifes to shift the blame away from her to cause enough of a blindspot to the greater will to shatter the elden ring and cause it to loose control of the lands between. And when the lands were weak and tired of war, the tarnished would return and take control as they see fit.
Great theory, the biggest question and all of all for me is what the hell is Marikas motivations because once we figure that out it will answer so many other questions.
Hey man! I totally agree that “The Greater Will” is just an outer god in power. The way I see it played out is Marika joined the Greater Will at first- but over time grew to despise it. She even employs the blacksmith to create a weapon to kill a god, and it seems she’s plotted that for a long time. Just how Mohg’s blood outer god spreads its own influence through blood-- the Greater Will spreads its influence and power through “order.” But eventually the greater will’s true colors start to come to the surface. Pressing an over-the-top level of “order” over everyone. Anyone deemed an Emperion is imprisoned by their own Two-Fingers respectively, and thus can be controlled by the outer god’s “order” agenda. The Greater Will is an outer god that attained nearly supreme power in the land. Marika (and her children) saw this and slowly moved the pieces to disrupt it. It even makes Marika basically imprison her own omen children never to see the light of day- and basically kill the others connected to the crucible- which can be seen as a more natural world. It also would make sense as to why Gideon wants to stop us from becoming Elden lord. Basically saying that he has perceived that Marika wants the world to forever struggle. Why would she want that? Because if the world were to be out of “order” then Greater Will won’t have its grip on the world. That is why Ranni’s ending is the true good ending.
It seems like all the demigods are born cursed and I think that somehow plays into it. I don't think he was skipped. Maybe his curse hadn't manifested yet or he was cursed to spread death or be the catalysts for the end of the Golden Order or something like that and his fate was inevitable.
I think that the only cursed children are the ones birthed by Marika/Radagon. The omen twins, aren't actually cursed, it's just seen as a curse because of Marika's distain for the Hornsent. Godwyn, Radahn, Ranni and Rykard aren't cursed. So it seems that there is something with the birthing from a single god that inflicts curse. Probably the games way of saying 'incest bad'
@@Dekuzekis Marika having children with Radagon incest? I always perceived Radagon and Marika as being biologically distinct people. They are a result of one entity’s soul being split into two. As in when Radagon incarnated he was born to his own parents and is not genetically related to Marika; he just IS half of her soul. The half the Greater Will can control still. You could think of Marika/Radagon as an Alchemical Rebus that was split apart forcibly by The Greater Will for ‘some’ reason…. I think the children of Radagon and Marika are cursed because they were conceived by one soul. I always believed that the reason we see Radagon come out of Marika’s corpse when we fight him is because as a prt of him trying to mend the Elden Ring, he first had to merge once more with Marika. But I do not think they were always merged in body. I think for most of the history of the game there was only Marika and then she strayed from The Greater Will and so the Greater Will forced Radagon to incarnate by splitting Marika’s soul in half. This theory requires accepting some outside inspiration such as the concept of a “Rebus”. But I don’t think it’s an accident that this game reminds me esoteric/occult Alchemy. But I think Marika caught onto the Greater Will, discovered who was born with half her soul and she tried to merge with him again but couldn’t because the Greater Will’s interference. So she conceived children with Radagon. To subvert the Greater Will. But this too backfired, inflicting what were supposed to be her perfect empyreans into cursed beings. Perhaps her punishment for her Original Sin was having her soul split in half at the moment she achieved Godhood as a way to hinder her further ruining The Greater Will’s plan.
Thing is with the DLC we know for a fact that the Greater Will abandoned everyone since the time of Placidusax. The first star Metyr was broken cause of the wills abandonment. All the fingers obey the Mother of Fingers.
I know now of the greater wills abandonment based on info from the DLC, but how did you determine that the GW has been gone since Placidussax? I've always placed Placidussax as the first age, and that the GW left sometime between then and Marika. I
She targeted him bc her father left her mother for Marika and Godwyn was Marikas not cursed and favorite son. Plus Ranni couldn’t target Miquella or Malenia bc they were her half siblings while Godwyn was of no relation….kinda sorta
There was a theory that the Crimson Spearlike object that pierced through Marika's Womb was caused by the Tarnished ,after releasing destined death and defeating the Black Blade Maliketh. Becasue the rune of death was removed from the elden ring a long time ago and since by unbounding the rune of death it just returned to the Elden Ring which is also the Elden beast which is also inside Queen Marika. And Since The Impenetrable thorns have been burned by Melina the Entrance of the Erdtree was now open. And then After Maliketh was defeated the Rune of death just returned to where it belonged, and by doing so the Elden Beast was given a Crack like mark during the battle hence rendering it wounded by the time we arrived inside the Erdtree after defeating Radagon.
The succession of Marika was on the horizon. Ranni and Godwyn were the best shot to renew the golden order. Anyways I believe that Marika could've in some way used the snow crone to influence Ranni and orchestrate the event and that Godwyn was willing to sacrifice himself. It all culminates in the Age of Stars ending, we saved Marika from her fate and fulfilled our mission.
Totally agree, I spoke in my last video about how Empyreans were chosen in a way that seems to only end with the GW being replaced by some other god or removed. (Moon, Rot, Unalloyed) I think Marika knew her time was coming, and decided that she didn't want to leave the world for the GW and tried to ensure the success of her Demi-Gods
I think that Marika planned all this because removing Destined Death caused unintended consequences (i.e.,Those Who Live In Death). She needed to start everything over again. Her order was flawed from the beginning (see Ansbach). She got Ranni and Godwin on her side, and both volunteered to sacrifice different parts of themselves. Also, I think Messmer burned down the Erdtree (Great Tree?), which is why there's only a sliver of the original tree left and the rest is illusion. Perhaps Melina was caught in the fire. This would have ruined her purpose, which is why she is looking for her purpose in the base game. So much lore!
Well...I'm ng+4 about to go fight radahn in Calid before I enter the dlc for the second time. So glad I have more videos like this to watch as I speed run the shit out if it. (I'm gonna die like 100000 times)
I think Marika was raising Miquella to take her place so she could die and escape the cage she herself created. In the DLC ending, it seemed to me that someone had TOLD him he was going to be a god (his mom) and Godfrey would be his consort. The original vow. But I think as he aged Miquella no longer was dancing to his mom’s tune. So, instead of allowing her to set the groundwork for his Godhood, he betrayed her by tipping them both off. Marika ruined Ranni’s plan and Ranni Ruined Marika’s plan. I think she shattered the Ring because she realized Miquella had not only rebelled but was also laying a new groundwork for his own ascension. She had no choice but to use her Trump card and shatter the ring preventing Radagon from taking over, and summoned her immortal army into the lands between to wipe the slate clean.
I like the theory that Godwyn was cursed with deathblight (as all of Marika's birthed decents are afflicted with something), as deathblight is not an effect associated with the rune of death and appears used by ancient deathbirds. Deathvlight starting at the lower extremity may not have been obvious enough to diminish Godwyns outward appearance. I suspect that Godwyn was slain in spirit, while Rani was slain in body as an attempt to sever his fate. I suspect that Castle Sol and the resurrection attempt was pre-planned yet failed. Such hubris may explain the martyrdom and the reluctant acceptance of being the Lord of the Duskborn, as the 'plan' was to be brought back.
I hadn't really thought about that but that is an interesting theory! Definitely makes sense of why the death spells use the cursemark instead of the rune of death when cast
Occam's Onion has an interesting theory that Marika was not a legitimate god: basically overthrowing the hornsent without the Outer Will's direct involvement, until she kicked off her age of plenty, and that the Outer Will sent it's Elden Beast to legitimize her and impose it's desired Golden Order Elden Ring configuration on her world. Kitetasles has another interesting theory that Marika was not actually a shaman, but rather the first truly successful jar saint created by the hornsent potentates. Essentially they manufactured to to be a god, and when she found out how they did that, she nuked them. But because she was made to be a god, that would explain how she would be able to overthrow the hornsent order without Outer Will support. And if she is basically enprisoned by the Outer Will, that would explain why she would be willing to blow up so much to try and get free again.
It could be, but Godwyn's death would be the reverse of that unfortunately. It is said that Miquella divested his flesh, where Godwyn's soul is destroyed but his body remains.
I still believe Radagon is a parasitic outer god (perhaps the Formless Mother?) or entity who infected Marika at some point and has been slowly taking over. I agree Marika was the mastermind with the goal of stopping Radagon. Marika broke the ring, Radagon tried to fix it unsuccessfully; although they might share the same body, they are both different entities with their own plans, thought, soul and mind. See that Red spear-like object piercing Marika? That's the true Radagon, that is NOT the rune of death or one of it's fragments. The rune of death makes it possible to kill Radagon. You should also include the Blacksmith as he is part of and confirms Marika's plan to "kill a God".
Marika did not want Goldwyn to die,she was duped that is why Ranni has you do her bidding yet the black knives go after igi and blaid There was a betrayal within the conspirators.The fingers were not made by Marika the DLC tells us who did.Marika was tempted by power to become a god from the fingers.Seduction,then she found being a god was a prison as well as being cursed.She only wanted the unwanted children to be killed not Godwyn,Radagon wanted Godwyn to die you are close there.Godwyn could be a lord of the ring he was in the way of Radagons plans.And yes he was taking over that is why the tarnished were removed as well.But Marika made it so they could come back and kill radagon long before Godwyn died that was planned.That was not what Godwyn wanted to live in death and rot forever.Plans did not go down the way they planed it.Someone Radagon most likely did this,then like a chicken locked himself in thorns and hid like a coward.
She does seem all over the place. I have a feeling she may have come into everything with good intentions. Making choices when the 'ends justify the means' only to realize that the end was not what she expected and realized she needed fix it. Hoping we get a clearer picture with the DLC!
after playing the DLC, i now believe that Marika didn't plan Godwyn's death. It actually makes no sense for her to do that. All her children, except Godwyn were cursed. Godwyn was likely the favorite. Godwyn being taken away and forced to live eternally soulless, a mockery of Marika's vision of the Golder order (absent death), is a cruel twist of fate and karmic retribution which would understandably push her to the brink and shatter the ER. She must've thought that Grandam's curse eluded or missed Godwyn, but nah. A most cruel fate was reserved for him.
You cant tell me the man who defeated and befriended the ancient dragons just sat there and let the curse mark be carved into him without it being of his own will. Also the maliketh line about betrayal is such a good point, i always assumed the betrayal was the sealing of destined death but the way you describe it made perfect sense. Also i think its important to mention that the late game rememberances directly spoil lore aspects(the rot goddess remeberance reaffirms the "radagon is marika" thing) so this could be an example of a late game rememberance giving the game away
Hmmm, that's an interesting thought I never picked up on haha. The end game remembrances are just giving away things that people may have not figured out. Good call out!
@@DrooledOn how can you explain the twinned runes like the omens twins, the cursed twins, or radahn and rykard? Did each pair just happen to have matching runes?
@@copyninja8756 Possible, but at the end of Ranni's questline Blaidd fights off 3 or 4 of them, and Iji takes on 2. Total speculation but I think Godwyn planned to sacrifice himself. Especially when the Finger Reader calls him a martyr.
What if Godwin and Ranni both planned to kill their flesh so they can go to the realm of shadows and ascend to godhood with Godwin as the consort to Ranni. But them both having it carved into them at the same time caused the unexpected soul death of Godwin. Considering he is the first being in ER to be a giant soulless cancer I think its fair to say no one knew that could even happen.
While we deviate on Marika's method (in my video I argue she is akin to voldemort and her special children are her horcruxes), I LOVE how you call out godwyn as a martyr and use the finger reader as evidence. I wish I'd seen that before I made my video because that's a 10/10 point 😂 One note, when you were mentioning who else was conspiring- the item description of the blasphemous claw confirms rykard was allied with Ranni in the night of the black knifes. 😁 perhaps he had something to do with this profane ritual that created the knives, or he was in on it as a backup plan if there was a fall through. She REWARDS him with it too, so clearly she is in charge. Since I believe ranni is marika, obviously my take is a little different, in that I believe once ranni was positioned as she wants her to be she shattered the ring as the gunshot to signal the start of the finish of her grand plan 😁 10/10 video, sir!
Thank you! I think the Blasphemous Claw was a back up plan incase Maliketh came looking for the fragment. It says in the description that it is a way for Rykard to challenge Maliketh is the coming trespass is the transpire. I wasn't able to find any direct involvement from Rykard but its definitely possible he was involved in some way.
@Dekuzek the blasphemous claw is evidence of their alliance, it doesn't get much more clear cut than that lol In addition, the official outside of melinas room has an outfit very reminiscent of the executioners in the paintings in rykards manor. The carpet in the room is a variation of raya lucaria / caria too, so it's one giant conspiracy, by the looks of it l.
On Miquella, I don't think he was involved. The impression I get is he was being groomed to replace Marika, and was infatuated with Godwin the Golden as his Elden Lord, and when Godwin died (sort of) he tried to replace him with Redahn who was absolutely not interested. I'd suspect that Marika would directly approach Ranni about making the black blade, because she knew Ranni has been studying under the Gloam-eyed Queen, who was an expert in Destined Death and creating god killing blades, and chaffing at the idea of being under the sway of the Greater Will. Even if Marika created the Two Fingers, she would know Ranni did not know that, and would likely see value in her rebellious nature. Whereas Miquella, basically wants to be the thing the Greater Will wants him to be, so any attempt to get around it could very easily get leaked back to the Greater Will if she involves him in it. I'd even suspect Ranni hadn't even considered the Night of Black Knives before the idea to turn Godwin into a death god was brought to her, but was perfectly willing to take advantage of it. Also, if Marika did create the various two fingers, even if she knew Ranni did not know that, I can absolutely see her sending Ranni's away after, or before giving her a piece of Destined Death to go make black knives with. Even without being aware of Ranni's idea to kill the soul of her fingers so she can shed her body, I could definitely see Ranni straight up killing her two fingers simply to be rid of them. So to summarize: I don't see a reason Miquela would need to be involved, and a lot of reasons to keep him in the dark. I can also see reasons for Marika to involve Ranni without either being aware of Ranni's plan, or Ranni's plan even existing at the time. To me, the most likely course of events is Marika went to Ranni for assistance making the black knives, Ranni got ideas, and her two fingers got yoinked, and then Ranni improvised and completely balled up Marika and Godwin's plan. Then Miquella loses him marbles and starts stalking Redhan kicking off that whole disturbing arc.
Motivations of Ranni are freedom above all. She killed Godwyn, because he was a litteral puppet of Marika and the Greaterwill with no possibility to escape. So... she grantes him freedom. Entirely. And in the same actions, freed herself as well.
I mean, she can't target her siblings from Renalla since they are closer. Miquella and Malenia are both powerful Empyrians like her. Also I think those two are always together, making it hard to target 1. With Mohg and Morgott, she probably didn't even know they exist. Messmer is in the land of shadow (which she can't access even if she knew he was there). And lastly, Melina has no body to kill. That leaves Godwin as the only logical choice left.
One thing I love about ER's endings is the fact that they are a perfect example of an RPG ending. Most players have their own idea of what the best ending is because of their interpretation and it's amazing, I can't think of any other game that has this level of discourse and opinions around the endings.
I think it was Just because Gdowyn was the perfect golden child that marika wanted and he prolly would’ve prolly been the primary Inheritor of the Golden order And Ranni knew if she killed him then Marika would lose her mind and as a mother will and has done React in a violent and emotional way
I think that was the end goal, but it would have been a big societal shift which is why I think she laid this plan, as a way to get the citizens of the Lands Between to accept death's integration rather than revolting against her.
I think marika planned everything. The shattering was basically a stalemate between the greater will and those resisting it, a stalemate that lasted for thousands of years until some random tarnished came back into the picture. The greater will had to kill her but still keep her there as a vessel after the ring was shattered, in order to maintain the last vestiges of its power. The queen is sacrificing herself so the King can get the kill. Like a huge game of chess where someone was able to castle multiple times and willing to sacrifice everything in order to triumph. Some Enders game/end-game sort of scenario. The tragedy is that all the people who idolized Godfrey were upholding an order that he was spurned by, and was set up as the inevitable usurpation of it. Radahn, Morgott, etc. some of the most righteous characters are just pawns in the games of a power that doesn’t care for them ultimately.
Maybe Maliketh killed Marika, since the beasts are programmed to do that if empyreans rebel against the greater will. Is that why he’s a monk? Is him being careless for one second really the reason he turns into an ascetic? Maybe he betrayed Marika, just like she betrayed him. Idk, nobody has explained why she has that destined death blade in her. Food for thought.
I agree, Marika has a grand plan all along. I think the Tarnished & her words in the Church Of Pilgrimage confirm this. As for the spear of death she is impaled with, I think she did this herself as a last ditch effort to destroy the Elden Beast.
I think the goal was Marika trying to fix her order or have a means to destroy the greater will. We know she was planning for the removal of Radagon/Elden Beast for quite some time based on her banishing the tarnished with a plan to bring them back, this just seems like one step before giving up on everything. Which she does by shattering the Elden Ring.
Cool vid Have some rambling for more engagement Ive thought that Godwin was picked because of lack of opportunities Both Rycard and Renala were on her side (blasphemous claw for Rycard if things went south with Maleketh) Godrick was either too weak or too good at hiding in castles and groups of women to target Radan was picking fights with stars so probably not the best match to bet on The omen twins might not have been known (Morgot might have known them but maybe not vise versa) as the only interaction shown (to my memory) was morgot trying to stab Radan in the opening And the OTHER twins probably outsmarted or outspeed assassins(?) OR he was the only one with a great connection to the magic tree (everyone else either having other outer gods or not caring) Finally I thought Malekeths abandonedment was the trick (why wasn't he just in the tree?) That was my Ted talk goodnight
The big meteorite that crashed down in Limgrave is different from the Finger crashing down. That big meteorite could be Astel, but some items mentioning Astel talk as if it has been there for a long time. I agree with you that it is Astel crashing down I just think based on the timeline of events, the crater that we find them in, the hole in the roof of Manus Celes and all the other fingers being dead, they must not have been underground the whole time. Taking their similarity in colour to Starlight shards into account I think it's safe to assume they were held in the cosmos until we defeat Radahn.
Godwyn, imho, was meant to die, not only that but i believe he agreed to it. what wasnt supposed to happen was Ranni's sabotaging of the event. i dont know if the black knives were supposed to be used as the instrument or if he was supposed to be killed through normal means
A question: If Ranni interfered with Marika's plan. Does that mean the black knives who attack Iji and Blaidd at the end of Ranni's questline are sent by Marika? Are Marika and Ranni at war at that moment? Because that is what your theory would imply, right?
Based on Ranni hiding away I think it is a safe assumption. I don't think Marika specifically sent the Black Knives to kill Iji and Blaidd, mainly because she is trapped in the Erdtree. There may have been orders to find and kill Ranni & her servants based on the face that Alecto is imprisoned at Moonlight Altar. But I think that going was a decision they made on their own because of Ranni's betrayal. We know they were from the Eternal City, and the attack on Blaidd & Iji doesn't happen until after Ranni & the tarnished go through Nokstella. It's possible that this is when they found out that Ranni and her lot were still alive, deciding to go after Ranni, Blaidd & Iji. But of course only Blaidd & Iji remained when they attacked.
In light of the dlc, I wonder if Marika didn’t plan for Godwyn infecting the lands between with deathblight. If the lands between were born from the sacrifices of the lands of shadow, maybe the only way to undo the damage is to consume the lands between with death, causing a rebirth in the lands of shadow, which is possibly her true homeland (the whole numen thing a lie)
In the DLC we find out exactly where Marika is from. I won't spoil it if you haven't finished the DLC but we know where she is from. I have a video planned right now that will talk about Marika's origins.
Great theory, I enjoyed it. Although I’m not sure why marika would bother with all these complicated schemes when she could have just told maliketh she wanted to re-establish death into the golden order. It would have been an instant solution to her issue if that’s what she wanted. He would have been happy to oblige her but that’s just my two cents.
Maybe not. Maliketh is addicted to death at this point, constantly hungering for it. When he dies, he wonders if this what it was like to sin. Maybe Maliketh's sin was to refuse Marika in relinquishing the Rune of Death
I think part of the reason is that Marika had some intentions of using the rune of death on Radagon & or the Elden Beast. We are told that when Empyreans go against the Greater Will/Two Fingers their shadows go mad. Meaning that if Maliketh knew about Marika's plan he would go mad and attack Marika. Therefore she had to steal the rune as to not set off Maliketh.
I get his idea that all these characters are dual beings, one is a soul and the other is the body. Ranni is the soul and Godwyn is the body. She separated herself from her body by separating herself from Godwyn.
What if Godwyn decided to sacrifice himself for Ranni, and not cos Marika orchestrated it? That would explain to me, why Marika was so crushed by grief, and decided to basically burn it all and shatter the elden ring, thus betraying everyone
@@Dekuzek mmm, not evidence, but the assumption from how he's being held by Black knives, while they carve the half rune, pretty gently and supporting his weight by hands, as if he was a willful sacrifice. And that would explain, why Michela would write such an epitaph before Godwyn's death, not after, as if he knew Ranni's plans, and (a phat theory of mine) may be that's why he sent Malenia to fight Radahn on his territory, to kill him and set Ranni's fate back running to find the piece of the weapon to kill her Two fingers as well. But hey, that's just a theory
@@user-hs9jx6wj9d I also thought that about how he is positioned in that image, it definitely looks like they are carving it while supporting him not while he tries to escape. I do like the idea of Malenia being sent to kill Radahn to set Ranni's fate back in motion, that is a neat idea!
@@Dekuzek btw, atm I'm replaying ER, and Ranni mentions, that the Bell of awakening was given to her by Torrent's former master, who told her to give it to us, and we have a running theory, that Melina could be one of the aspects of Miquela, that theoretically implies, that Ranni knows him pretty close, as noone ever mentions, that he had a pet. So, I'm thinking, that these two could easily conspire Godwyn's death together. I'm hyped, that dlc is much closer now, and we will finally put all theories to the test
I don’t think you should twist any description that is provided to us in the game. When it says that half of the rune of death is carve on Godwyn and Rani at the same time, then that is what actually happened. Not Rani planning what she should do to herself later after Godwyn is killed.
There is one thing about the theory that does not check out for me: If the original plan was for Godwyn to die a full death, then the black knives should have carved the full curse mark into his body. No matter if Ranni carved one half into herself, if it wasn't her controlling the black knives then why would the black knives carve the exact other half that was required to complete the circle. Why do we not get 1 and a half curse mark?
If we look at Ranni's body & Godwyn's in the intro, they share an identical curse mark. My interpretation is that the second half of the curse mark is not carved by the assassin in flesh but it is a curse mark on the soul that happens naturally when killed with DD. This is why even the fingers that Ranni kills have a curse mark that matches the previous two even though they were killed individually.
I think she did it to send a message. I also wonder if she did this because he was the most vulnerable. No way could these assassins take out radahn or malenia.
Could be to send a message however, we know that Godwyn wasn't the only Demi-God to die, the black knives killed multiple and we see them in the Walking Mausoleums. Godwyn may have been the easier of the Demi-Gods we know about but it seems like she also could have just went after a random one instead.
Godwyn history is really a tragedy. A perfect son, a symbol of an Order, a hero that defended the capital against the most strong creatures to ever live and even created an alliance with them. He is the first son of Marika with the first Elden Lord, he was even called ¨¨the golden¨¨, and then, he was killed with a knife in his back. Was his death necessary? was it worth for Ranni ending?... Honestly, the best ending seems to be the Goldenmask. It is not the coolest, but seems to be the most wise. Goldenmask ending seems to fix everything going wrong, he is not going to forsake this world, or abandon him, he is not going to extreme decisions, he gets a rune to fix. He basically tries to reach perfection, and fix the mistakes of Gods and man.
Godwyn is a figure if the order that has long settled itself in the lands between. Although tolerant(to dragons, and glintstone sorcerers), this order was oppressive, especially to those considered without grace, or without light(the omens). He might be "golden", but he's associated with something that isn't. He had brothers afflicted with the omen curse, but he doesn't do anything about it. Instead we're shown with how kind he was, befriending the dragon that attacked leyndell, and later on forming a cult. Ranni saw through this hypocrisy, and that is why I believe she killed Godwyn, and herself. She recognizes that her existence as an empyrean can be a tool to free the men of TLB. With our help, she establishes a new order where no new orders can be formed(basically orderless), where gods cannot intervene(even herself), and where men are free. A true libertarian. But it is ambiguous in a sense that we do not know how the people of TLB will act once this takes place. Gold mask's ending perfects the golden order, upholding its core values(ruthless and oppressive to those outside the order), but also removing the fickleness of men and demigods. Just like Ranni's, it is ambiguous in a sense that we do not know what comes after this. Maintaining an order, the golden order, might not be the best thing since you're not removing the influence of the greater will. As far as we know, there are other gods(the giants have their god, which was slain). There could be others just waiting. I honestly do feel like Ranni's, and Gold mask's endings are of the same coin, but on the opposite sides. They're both ambiguous, and just as positive as they are negative.
Marika wanted to die. She made a sin, an act of cruelty that she regret not because of the act itself but because she ended up being inprisioned by its own nature as an outer god-dependant. She was cursed on every single way, being her sons the reflection of each single sin she commited (while i trully think her main sin was related to the hornsent and the chaman village, and the rest just being the other outer gods resentment for their lands between representatives being destroyed by her. All of them accursed at least one of her children). She also had herself split in two, with her splitted other half having its own intentions and ambitions. She was being trolled by her own other part, wich must be frustrating . The outer god was giving her an only way to get out of the curse: kill the only bright thing she generated, Godwin the Golden. A true hero, strong, intelligent but also compasionate and comprehensive with those who deserved it (Fortisax for example). Everything was a whole sarcasm by the Greater Will, since all was set to be a complicated laberynth to get through. Marika basically asked for power to get revenge and ended up receiving a much more painfull curse instead. It seems unfair, but this is a depiction of revenge: revenge is a curse itself, the death of sane reasoning, the death of the soul wich receives not relief, but a deep and cold void of loneliness that is hard to escape from. Same as Marika's vow to an outter God...
There are 2 things: Godwyn sacrificed himself because he was cursed with something awful like the others OR, the Rune of Death choosed Godwyn first to die.
Elden Ring seems obsessed with dichotomy, and I feel it plays out in nearly asset. Like the term outer gods implying "inner" gods, I think the Greater Will implies a lesser will, one that perhaps it overcame through some conflict. I think Death itself might be the "lesser" will, and might by a God relating to the soul or spirit. The Greater Will seems to only be of flesh and stone, never of spirit. In fact, it seems that Marika herself is who created "Grace", a cheap replacement for a guiding soul and perhaps the Greater Will loved this better than the fingers. Except that Grace belonged to her and not it. It seems that Death was not a power they could control correctly or knew how to use, but perhaps it was being wielded correctly by another God and its avatars correctly in the Gloom Eyed Queen and her own demigods. I don't think Godwyn died of his own accord, hence the need for assassins, but I do think he was the perfect weapon against the Erdtree and Golden Order. To eat it from the inside. I do really wish we got more Gloam Eyed Queen info, but I feel like maybe Melina was a mix between both sides. From Marika and the Gloam.
Idk man, there are many things not fitting: -Melina's role, who probably is the gloam eyed queen, as she is connected with the rune of death and promise to give you "destined death" if you become the lord of chaos -Why Iji gets killed by black knife assassins if they were Ranni's allies -Golden Epitaph is a weapon specific to kill undeads, so Miquella already knew that Godwyn was living in death and wanted him to be unalived completely
Hard to say about the GEQ/Melina having an involvement. We don't know when Melina manifested, and if she existed prior to the Shattering. While she is involved with Destined Death she doesn't have any control over it until after we release it from Maliketh. Iji & Blaidd are attacked following the killing of Ranni's Fingers. In my other video I theorize that Marika created/controls the Two Fingers. I also believe that the Black Knives are loyal to Marika so I think it's likely that they attack Iji & Blaidd in response to Ranni killing her fingers. I also don't know if the Golden Epitaph was designed to kill undead. I think it is just a consequence of it being a Holy weapon. Seeing that all Holy weapons are effective against Undead, not just this one. If we look at the Art of War on the Golden Epitaph, it is called 'Last Rites' which means final prayers/blassings. Meaning it's more likely that this weapon was created as a final prayer for Godwyn, and not designed to kill him/other undead. Of course this is speculation, so that's just what i believe.
I think godwyn was gonna be her lord and she was going to take marikas place but she didn’t want that so she killed godwyns soul with one half of the hallowbrand and she killed her body with the other half Edit: and put her soul in a doll Edit: but every thing else I agree with
Ranni didnt do it at all... Marika did. The game, through Rogier, keeps trying to make us think that Ranni killed Godwyn. But she didnt. Ranni made a Black Knife for herself, to kill herself. Its all too much to explain in a text. It would take a video. But im not gonna do it. Basiclly... Fia is manipulating us right from the start. Shes manipulating Rogier too (through sex, she admits to sleeping with him). To find the Cursemark and give it to Godwyn to complete his Great Rune. There is no item deacription evidence, or even enviromental evidence to suggest that Ranni was the one that gave the order to kill Godwyn. Only the story of an NPC who has every reason to lie to us. Rogier gets us started. He tells us he is investigating a murder when we meet him in Stormveil. Fia tells us Rogier is invetigating a murder and that she has no idea what he is talking about but we should help him (this is odviously a Lie as we know Fia is Godwyns Deathbed Companion, she knows the murder victim personally) After we find the Godwyn face in the depths, Rogier is different. Now he cant walk. And he needs us to go to Nokron for him. Then we return with the Knifeprint. A mold used to make the Black Knives. He tells us it was last used by Ranni. This is true. But it wasnt MADE by Ranni. It was used by the Eternal Cities. Which are where the Black Knife Assassins are from. They are also Numen, like Marika. Not Carians like Ranni. So Numen are using Eternal Cities technology combined with the Rune of Death to become Assassins. After Marika broke death away from the Elden Ring, she gave it to Maliketh. That means she had access to the Rune of Death. She ALWAYS could make Black Knives. The Black Knife Assassins are MARIKAS assassins. Not Ranni's. They work for Marika. Which is why they attack Ranni's rise after Ranni leaves. Furthermore, the Officials Attire, the one in Melinas room with the Blade of Calling (the one with the same move set at rhe Black Knives) suggests the officals conducted survalence, executions, and Gruesome Rituals. And that robe matches the Marias Robe, who we know were offical Executioners for the Royal Family. So i posit the Officals who used the Blade of Calling and conducted ritual executions for the Crown eventually turned into the Black Knife Assassins as Marikas personal body guard Also also furthermore furthermore. Everyone forgets the Night of Long Knives (the actual real historic event) was the Nazis PURGING the left wing elements from the Nazi party by murdering them all at once. So it makes more sense if Marika is killing a subbordinate and not two subbordinates of Marika fighting eachother.
QUICK NOTE: As of the DLC it was revealed that my previous theory about Marika creating the finger was incorrect, so take some of the info around that with a grain of salt.
Honestly, given what we do now know about the Two Fingers and their actual “Mother,” the rest of the theory can still follow given our new understanding. They were defective, and both Marika and Ranni wanted to escape their corrupted guidance.
Regarding the sword by Miquella, I think that the "please die a true death" was after Miquella seeing that his brother did not die and was in a sort of limbo. So since he didnt die a proper death (from the Erdtree or a real death) and he was a rotting, spreading corpse, Miquella was wishing he died for real, to end that undead state Godwyn is in.
It is possible. The reason I considered it being made before hand was because of the prayer sounding like it's in a present/future tense and that it was placed in the Hero's Grave, to me that puts them together. Again, that is speculation as we don't know for sure.
@@Dekuzek yep, I think both are possible. These discussions are why I love the lore and this world
@@elricmon2099 Oh totally! I remember putting the Dark Souls story together and thinking it was complex and difficult. Elden Ring has brought the storytelling to a new level, so many questions, so many potential outcomes, I love it!
DLC SPOILERS
with the ending known, he calls 'Lord brother' Radhan not Godwyn
the showr might have been created after Malenia and Radhans battle when he lost his mind
@@wawrzys9824 Its hard to say, I think it's a good point though! It's just hard to say when Miquella left for the Realm of Shadow.
It is possible that he refers to all of his male siblings as Lord Brother.
I'll definitely look into this again and see how it works out.
My theory has always been that Ranni orchestrated these events entirely to create her own age. I still don't think Marika had anything to do with it since the whole Radagon/Marika thing makes me question how she'd plan that, and given that the finger reader crones are unreliable narrators at best. I still believe Ranni knew 100% what she was doing and betrayed everyone at that point, placing the blame squarely on the Black Knives for the entirety of the plot. The last thing her plan hinged on was someone like The Tarnished. Someone who could take her form which did not have the power to go to the places it needed to go, and to gather the things she needed to finish her plot. Iji couldn't, he's no warrior, Blaidd is literally incapable of betraying the Golden Order, and Seluvis is a conniving rat.
I used to think this same thing and she was very evil which is why every playthrough I put a ring on net finger but this guy's theory really got me. I think it might be true.
Quite the opposite. Marika planned to wed Ranni to Godwyn and then sacrifice Ranni as the next kindling maiden, taking Marika’s place. This is why Ranni revolted and then divested her soul from her flesh.
What I would think is that Marika had nothing to do with the night of the black knives, yes, it was Ranni who planned the strike to avoid being controlled by the greater will, but there how's Miquella involved in all this? I think Miquella was not very fond of Marika, he actually could have lend aid to the tarnished to end Marika's golden order (giving away torrent to us), Melina might be the Gloam eyed Queen who was betrayed by Marika/Radagon (when they set Seduction in the last trailer I wonder if it was Radagon who seduced the gloam eyed Queen to take her down and her Elden Ring), so she might be part of the equation. During the first Elden Ring trailer we see Marika destroying the Elden Ring, probably that's the gloam eyed Queen Elden Ring to pluck the rune of death out of it, then Radagon trying to amend it when Godwin was killed, we see how him being unable to mend it gets frustrated (almost like crying in the process). What do you think?
Seluvis woulda got bitchslapped for trying to poison her lmao
Marika brings the tarnished back to life to bring in a new age. It’s through her that we are given the guidance of grace. I don’t think it’s too unreasonable to think she gave her favorite kids a chance too idk. Too much coincidences and crossing over in the lore for marika not to have been involved in the notbk
The thing is though Malaketh is talking about the shattering of the elden ring as the betrayal (of the fingers) hes "gone crazy" like all shadowbound beasts when their emperyan goes against the Fingers/GW. Marika went against the fingers, thus he is betrayed.
In DLC ,we learned that who one to become God must abandon his/her her body . I think they want to do this on Godwyn by killing his body . And Godwyn become God or consort for Rani, but Rani act first and decive them all .
Besides the "Marika created the two fingers" bit, I think you really cooked with that theory
Another thing because you are making a good point, with the golden epitath being a possible sign miquella was involved would make it now at least 5 of the gods involved. Ranni, marika, miquella, and godwyn are explained here but rykkard has the blasphemous claw too. The only ones we cant directly tie to the night of the black knives are malenia and radahn.
I have a feeling that Radahn and Ranni had a falling out when Radahn froze Ranni's fate with the stars. Could be an explanation as to why.
Not sure why Malenia would be left out except for maybe the worry about how the Rot could effect things.
@@Dekuzek if miquella is involved malenia most likely followed but all I'm saying is we don't have direct evidence of it. I just like how it's starting to feel like a murder on the Oriental express event where everyone was responsible for or involved in the night of the black knifes
Hmmm… maybe Godwyn, whom we can safely assume was a badass formidable warrior, didn’t sacrifice himself. Maybe he was put to sleep and then got backstabbed. 🤔
I still really like your interpretation of the events. Him sacrificing himself as the ultimate act of love and devotion is plausible. Great video!
Thanks for watching! Sleep is an aspect I hadn't thought of and depending on Miquella's involvement is definitely a possibility.
And u would think his best bud lich dragon wouldn't kill those shits? He obviously was in on it.
Ranni just foiling everyone’s plans
Well not really. They literally have a plan thanks to ranni lmao
Not bad. 2 things:
1) might wanna rectify Marika creating the Two Fingers after the DLC revealed Metyr. Though it is possible the Two Fingers only appeared with Marika's ascension to godhood, as they're different compared to primal finger creepers in that the Two-Fingers have hair. It's likely that Metyr created the Two-Fingers specifically for Marika & her Golden Order.
2) there was no way Marika could've sent Ranni's Two Fingers into space because the stars are beyond her jurisdiction. Her powers revolve around Order, and whatever allowances Metyr gave her, as Marika was a conspirator & puppet to the mother of fingers the whole time.
Other than that, you bring up a great point about the plot of sacrificing Godwyn to re-introduce destined death to the world by becoming a god of death himself, which ended very badly
There is one way for Marika to halt the fingers from ever arriving; Radahn. Hes a golden order loyalist and he freezes the cosmos, and Ranni cannot kill her fingies until hes dead.
Except Metyr didn't create specific fingers for Marika Metyr after giving birth to the fingers, abandoned them all, she was broken long before they were born and the fingers inherited this broken nature and it was twisted into a weird obsession for a mother figure; the fingers themselves could no longer be in contact with their mother as Metyr hid herself away the only fingers you fight in the finger birthing grounds are the fingers she gives birth to at that moment and she's basically has gone insane as Ymir said because she wants to contact the greater will who Metyr believes at this point had abandoned them forever but desperately calls out to it. The two fingers were already the two fingers when Marika met them considering hiw the fingers looked and how they moved I can see how even the Hornsets might have worshipped the fingers as well as hvaing a connection to the scadutree and spiral afterall even the spiral image can be seen being used by Metyr no doubt the two fingers themselves saw this as an opportunity. That or the Fingers were the ones who spread the religion of the Hornsets and Marika was so absorbed in her Vengeance she didn't notice it as the Fingers were truly the best Manipulators in the story, they attached themselves to the Empyreans and manipulate their destiny whatever the men
I always liked how you could do Ranni and Rogier's quests in tandem, and Ranni never thought twice about teaming up with you, even though you could've betrayed her for all she knew, but because of her ability to look at things pragmatically, she worked with you anyway. This theory supports that.
My thinking was she didn’t want to kill her brothers. Morgott and Mohg were out of her reach. Assuming she even knew of them (they were more of a secret), Mohg is off serving the Formless Mother and Morgott was living under the alias of Margitt. No way she could get to Miquella or Malenia since the latter protects the former. The only option would be Godwyn.
She probably should’ve chosen Rykard. That dude is weird. But he’s her full brother, not half or step sibling.
I should have mentioned it in the video but part of the theory is because we know that the Black Knives killed more than just Godwyn (he was just the first). So my theory was going based on the idea that she technically could have used any of those random Dem-Gods as well.
I agree that Godwyn may also make sense from the named Demi-Gods, but there is also evidence to show otherwise, interesting nonetheless
I also like to imagine she has a sort of vengefulness toward the golden order, as her alliance with her mother, Rennala, is pretty clear and Radagon is the one that broke her. Daddy issues being a solid bonus when deciding whether or not to go with the blue waifu
Been playing around with this idea personally and glad to see someone talking about it
Ranni simps: endless essays to rationalize their choices
Goldmask enjoyers: (T)
You lost the argument by saying "simp". Also goldmask woukd be a brainless zombie of the golden order if it wasn't for the shattering
@@mihaimercenarul7467 Imagine thinking I was making a serious argument
Honestly, we need some sort of secret interaction between us and Godwyn after we beat Maliketh.
Just to let him finally truly rest.
It's one thing I didn't like about Fia's ending. You don't actually solve the problem of death blight, you just create an order where those who live in death are accepted, which doesn't really solve the issue.
Or sacrifice ranni soul for Godwyn
@@ssj-rose4572 I'd rather sacrifice your incultured and uneducated arse.
Despite what she did, Ranni had a very good reason. Gods(inner and outer), demigods, and even certain mortals have messed with the Order of things. Just like Goldmask, Ranni aims to remedy that. People born and die as they should, no more crazy abberations, no more curse upon omens, no more Shattering wars, no more madness, no more withering curse of being unable to die. The order is now untouchable, unseen, unheard, untamperable by neither gods, nor mortals. That's what her ending is. But localisers botched everything and mistranslated it. As well as most stuff in the game.
you cooked w this one bro, this changed my outlook on the lore heavily, i wonder now if miquellas whole goal is that he wanted godwyn buried in the hero’s grave, but when his death was deemed improper he was buried underneath and that pissed miquella off since his prayer became obsolete and his brother now disgraced, he then starts enacting his plan against the erdtree having to divest his flesh to somehow contact godwyns soul and resurrect him for a true death, a fight against our tarnished.
Thanks I'm glad you liked it! I think Miquella's character has so much potential since we know so little about him. I can't wait to find out more about him in the DLC.
I have a feeling that Miquella's grand plan is to try and find a way to revert the Lands Between back to a time before Marika and the Greater Will took over hoping that it will remove the influence of the Outer Gods, helping Malenia and maybe Godwyn (If we think that the Outer God of Death is causing Godwyn's curse)
@@Dekuzek that’s a good point, i never even considered the outer god of death, don’t the death birds have something to do w it?
@@kysonmiller5592 Yeah, there is a few mentions of it. Ghostflame, the Deathrite Birds, Helphen Steeple and Rancorcall all reference back to the god of/servants of Death.
@@Dekuzek yea hope we get more on that it’s rly vague, we have like nothing 😂 helphen steeple underrated too
I think that ranni, Godwin, and miquella conspired to create the night of black knives and bring back true death. But ranni betrayed the plan by marking herself with the other half of the curse mark. I believe she hid her two fingers away prior to the night to protect them during her bodiless absence until things shook out and she could take them out herself. The rest is just a waiting game until she could push the right tarnished in her plans direction, which is why she’s present at the first church.
Could be! I personally think Marika has to be involved somehow with the stealing of death from Maliketh. There is too much connecting her to a betrayal of him for her not to have been involved.
However, I did have a consideration that Marika stole death for her own purpose and someone stole a piece from her, however we don't have any evidence of this so I see option 1 being more likely.
Has anyone noticed Melina has the same fighting style and move set as the black knives assassins ?
@@StopJerkingOff yes, there was another lore video pointing that out. Also, her weapon is shaped like the black knives and she knows a lot about destined death. Then there is the whole, she is the gloam eyed queen, discussion because of the frenzied flame ending. Or even the theory that she is another manifestation of Marika, Messmer or even Miquella.
Who is Ranney???
🤣🤣
It's Midwest Ranni
I'm going crazy.
😂
this is the best video regarding the night of the black knives on the internet!
also you can see that after the night of the black knifes the sovereign alliance couldn't work because of the involvement of more than one demi god in the plot, i think this shows the antagonistic relationship that the demi-god have towards each other in the shattering war, so marika by involving part of her children in the plot of the knives made the shattering war end in an stalemate to let the tarnished come back to the lands between as per the abandonment of the greater will as in the knight of the black knives was the first domino to fall and the last being tarnished being risen
that's a part of my theory about the night of the black knives that wasn't in the video other than this your theory is exactly what i expect from a G.R.R.M and Miazaki writing a hidden plot in the game for us to unravel, as in a murder mystery us and rogier are trying to solve as sherlock and watson .
Glad you enjoyed! These complex and incomplete stories have been the most exciting to research and theorize about! While I hope we get more answers in the DLC I look forward to the additional questions that will come up!
At first, I was staunchly against Marika being involved in the Night of the Black Knives, let alone Godwyn, but this video has made me rethink my position a bit. Hopefully, the DLC will give us more information regarding Marika, Godwyn, & Miquella, but I do find this theory interesting.
Thanks for watching!
This is an interesting theory although I'd like to add that Ranni's brother Rykard was involved in some way of the plan and knew about it and I'd like to know how he fits into all this. She even had Rykard prepared to seemingly fight maliketh over this.
You can find this information out directly from an in game item the blasphemous claw which description directly states
"A slab of rock engraved with traces of the Rune of Death.
Can deflect the power of the Black Blade.
On the night of the dire plot, Ranni rewarded Praetor Rykard with these traces. Should the coming trespass one day transpire, they would serve as a last-resort foil, allowing Rykard to challenge Maliketh the Black Blade, the black beast of Destined Death."
I think miquella had Goldwyn mind controlled to be a consort so this plan was hatched. Great video!
One problem with Marika being involved with the Night of the Black knives: it seems to be out of Character.
In light of the dlc: we learn of her origin, how she lost her entire village and everyone she cared about.
How is this relevant? The removal of the Rune of Death seems to be a trauma response.
She doesn't want to lose anyone she cares about.
We also learn in the story trailer that the knight of the black knives pushed Marika to the brink and probably shattered the elden ring as a result of that.
Godwyns death would've been a triple whammy on said trauma:
1) the possibility of losing people he cares about now exists.
2) her Son died.
3) Godwyn is now a giant death Cancer spreading death blight throughout the lands between and shadow realm. Spawning those who live in death
Edit: oh i see this is pre-dlc.
Theres alot of holes poked into this theory thanks to the dlc
I do agree, the DLC changed my perspective on a few things and I would like to revisit this theory soon. I won't say too much now since I haven't given too much thought to it with the DLC info in mind but.
The DLC tries to paint Marika in 2 lights, One side is kindness. With the Minor Erdtree incant, it mentions 'the kindness of gold without order' and I think this is hinting towards Marika being the 'kindness' and Radagon being the 'order.' (Similar to Miquella & St. Trina) the second is as a wrathful and merciless god, as we can see by the Scadutree Avatar Remembrance where it says 'The Scadutree is the shadow of the Erdtree. Born of dark notions that bear no sense of Order.' Pointing to this action also being Marika alone, and not Radagon.
I agree with you that the removal of death is an emotional reaction to losing her people and the suffering inflicted upon her by the Hornsent. I think that we can see how Marika didn't just want justice for her people but to try and create a world without suffering, with her Age of plenty, her personal blessings, and removing death was part of that.
However, I do think Marika found the fault in her order as a lack of death has it's own problems. I do agree that the Shattering was majorly influenced by the Night of the black knives, but I think that the breaking point was not Godwyn dying (as I mention in the video I think this was a plan amongst everyone) but it was the fact that Godwyn did not die a true death that sent her over the edge. Godwyn being the only non-cursed child, becoming cursed.
That's a working theory right now, and I'm not entirely stuck on the theory being true, just brainstorming.
It would be so interesting to see what the Golden Order was like at its height.
Something important is that Godwwyn was not the only demigod that fell in the night of the black knives If you watch the first trailer Ranni says demigods in plural and then you see the multiple mausuleums
100%, that was originally what started me on this theory simply because Ranni choosing to kill Godwyn seemed targeted when she didn't have to. So I started looking into it and put these pieces together.
This sounds like one of those movie gags where Marika told Ranni who told Miquella who told Godwyn who agreed with Ranni who told the Black Knife Assassains who scared Miquella who told Marika and and betrayed Malekith who was not in the know of any of this
My head cannon is that Marika wanted out herself but Godwyn got caught on the throne. I think marika was meant to be ended. Still trying to replace herself with radagon who she sent to make a new divine gate and become a god on his own. He was absolved of this mission and became guided by the moon.
She gave up. Shattered the ring.. she has all power but cant protect the people she loves. She then tells the kids hey go do what u gone do but if you dont make anything of urself u will be sacrifice to whomever does rise.
It's the "you have yet to become a God" line for me after she sent him to wage war on a kingdom like Mesmer against the horny.
My theory is that like Marika is Radagon, Ranni was Godwyn
Happy to have subbed. This is good stuff and very well thought out.
Glad you enjoyed!
all the demigods are pieces of marika after divesting herself of some kind of malediction
She shatters the elden Ring so that the erdtree will call back the tarnished she exiled thru the guidance of grace
My general theory (which is part of a recent epiphany I had about the lore entirely) about godwin’s death is -
Like how radagon is the other half of marika, godwin was the other half of ranni. So to stop the greater will from taking full control of her like that of marika with radagon she devised a plan to make that impossible; and to stop the flow of the dew by poisoning the erdtree with godwin’s body and slow down the response time of the two fingers to the greater will.
With marika, realizing that the greater will was more of a curse than an boon. Indirectly aided in the plan by giving access to crumbling farum azula where malaketh is and giving the newmen women who were close to her to become the black knifes. With her killing one of the knifes to shift the blame away from her to cause enough of a blindspot to the greater will to shatter the elden ring and cause it to loose control of the lands between. And when the lands were weak and tired of war, the tarnished would return and take control as they see fit.
An interesting theory for sure! It's fun to see how everyone puts the lore pieces together
Great theory, the biggest question and all of all for me is what the hell is Marikas motivations because once we figure that out it will answer so many other questions.
Yeah it's hard to say with the info we have. Hoping we get more in the DLC
That was really good and eye opening.
Hey man! I totally agree that “The Greater Will” is just an outer god in power.
The way I see it played out is Marika joined the Greater Will at first- but over time grew to despise it. She even employs the blacksmith to create a weapon to kill a god, and it seems she’s plotted that for a long time.
Just how Mohg’s blood outer god spreads its own influence through blood-- the Greater Will spreads its influence and power through “order.”
But eventually the greater will’s true colors start to come to the surface. Pressing an over-the-top level of “order” over everyone. Anyone deemed an Emperion is imprisoned by their own Two-Fingers respectively, and thus can be controlled by the outer god’s “order” agenda.
The Greater Will is an outer god that attained nearly supreme power in the land. Marika (and her children) saw this and slowly moved the pieces to disrupt it.
It even makes Marika basically imprison her own omen children never to see the light of day- and basically kill the others connected to the crucible- which can be seen as a more natural world.
It also would make sense as to why Gideon wants to stop us from becoming Elden lord. Basically saying that he has perceived that Marika wants the world to forever struggle. Why would she want that? Because if the world were to be out of “order” then Greater Will won’t have its grip on the world.
That is why Ranni’s ending is the true good ending.
It seems like all the demigods are born cursed and I think that somehow plays into it.
I don't think he was skipped.
Maybe his curse hadn't manifested yet or he was cursed to spread death or be the catalysts for the end of the Golden Order or something like that and his fate was inevitable.
I think that the only cursed children are the ones birthed by Marika/Radagon. The omen twins, aren't actually cursed, it's just seen as a curse because of Marika's distain for the Hornsent. Godwyn, Radahn, Ranni and Rykard aren't cursed.
So it seems that there is something with the birthing from a single god that inflicts curse. Probably the games way of saying 'incest bad'
@@Dekuzekis Marika having children with Radagon incest? I always perceived Radagon and Marika as being biologically distinct people. They are a result of one entity’s soul being split into two. As in when Radagon incarnated he was born to his own parents and is not genetically related to Marika; he just IS half of her soul. The half the Greater Will can control still. You could think of Marika/Radagon as an Alchemical Rebus that was split apart forcibly by The Greater Will for ‘some’ reason…. I think the children of Radagon and Marika are cursed because they were conceived by one soul. I always believed that the reason we see Radagon come out of Marika’s corpse when we fight him is because as a prt of him trying to mend the Elden Ring, he first had to merge once more with Marika. But I do not think they were always merged in body. I think for most of the history of the game there was only Marika and then she strayed from The Greater Will and so the Greater Will forced Radagon to incarnate by splitting Marika’s soul in half. This theory requires accepting some outside inspiration such as the concept of a “Rebus”. But I don’t think it’s an accident that this game reminds me esoteric/occult Alchemy. But I think Marika caught onto the Greater Will, discovered who was born with half her soul and she tried to merge with him again but couldn’t because the Greater Will’s interference. So she conceived children with Radagon. To subvert the Greater Will. But this too backfired, inflicting what were supposed to be her perfect empyreans into cursed beings. Perhaps her punishment for her Original Sin was having her soul split in half at the moment she achieved Godhood as a way to hinder her further ruining The Greater Will’s plan.
Thing is with the DLC we know for a fact that the Greater Will abandoned everyone since the time of Placidusax. The first star Metyr was broken cause of the wills abandonment. All the fingers obey the Mother of Fingers.
I know now of the greater wills abandonment based on info from the DLC, but how did you determine that the GW has been gone since Placidussax?
I've always placed Placidussax as the first age, and that the GW left sometime between then and Marika. I
@@Dekuzek it's ashes say Placi was elden lord, elden=GW
She targeted him bc her father left her mother for Marika and Godwyn was Marikas not cursed and favorite son. Plus Ranni couldn’t target Miquella or Malenia bc they were her half siblings while Godwyn was of no relation….kinda sorta
Thank you. This was great.
There was a theory that the Crimson Spearlike object that pierced through Marika's Womb was caused by the Tarnished ,after releasing destined death and defeating the Black Blade Maliketh. Becasue the rune of death was removed from the elden ring a long time ago and since by unbounding the rune of death it just returned to the Elden Ring which is also the Elden beast which is also inside Queen Marika. And Since The Impenetrable thorns have been burned by Melina the Entrance of the Erdtree was now open.
And then After Maliketh was defeated the Rune of death just returned to where it belonged, and by doing so the Elden Beast was given a Crack like mark during the battle hence rendering it wounded by the time we arrived inside the Erdtree after defeating Radagon.
That's an interesting one I haven't heard before! It does make some sense for sure!
The succession of Marika was on the horizon. Ranni and Godwyn were the best shot to renew the golden order.
Anyways I believe that Marika could've in some way used the snow crone to influence Ranni and orchestrate the event and that Godwyn was willing to sacrifice himself.
It all culminates in the Age of Stars ending, we saved Marika from her fate and fulfilled our mission.
Totally agree, I spoke in my last video about how Empyreans were chosen in a way that seems to only end with the GW being replaced by some other god or removed. (Moon, Rot, Unalloyed) I think Marika knew her time was coming, and decided that she didn't want to leave the world for the GW and tried to ensure the success of her Demi-Gods
I think that Marika planned all this because removing Destined Death caused unintended consequences (i.e.,Those Who Live In Death). She needed to start everything over again. Her order was flawed from the beginning (see Ansbach). She got Ranni and Godwin on her side, and both volunteered to sacrifice different parts of themselves.
Also, I think Messmer burned down the Erdtree (Great Tree?), which is why there's only a sliver of the original tree left and the rest is illusion. Perhaps Melina was caught in the fire. This would have ruined her purpose, which is why she is looking for her purpose in the base game.
So much lore!
I think she realized who her king consort was going to be
Well...I'm ng+4 about to go fight radahn in Calid before I enter the dlc for the second time. So glad I have more videos like this to watch as I speed run the shit out if it. (I'm gonna die like 100000 times)
here's the tldr she didn't the black knifes did because Godwin was a symbol they wanted to distroy
we should not forget the belfry teleport she literally teleport in and out
holy crap subbed. You are so right. thats why they call him the death prince. it wasnt on accident. I think the DLC reaaaaaly reinforces your ideas
I think Marika was raising Miquella to take her place so she could die and escape the cage she herself created. In the DLC ending, it seemed to me that someone had TOLD him he was going to be a god (his mom) and Godfrey would be his consort. The original vow. But I think as he aged Miquella no longer was dancing to his mom’s tune. So, instead of allowing her to set the groundwork for his Godhood, he betrayed her by tipping them both off. Marika ruined Ranni’s plan and Ranni Ruined Marika’s plan. I think she shattered the Ring because she realized Miquella had not only rebelled but was also laying a new groundwork for his own ascension. She had no choice but to use her Trump card and shatter the ring preventing Radagon from taking over, and summoned her immortal army into the lands between to wipe the slate clean.
Marika is hope, hope that one day someone will come with a weapon that can slay a god and the will to do so
I like the theory that Godwyn was cursed with deathblight (as all of Marika's birthed decents are afflicted with something), as deathblight is not an effect associated with the rune of death and appears used by ancient deathbirds. Deathvlight starting at the lower extremity may not have been obvious enough to diminish Godwyns outward appearance. I suspect that Godwyn was slain in spirit, while Rani was slain in body as an attempt to sever his fate. I suspect that Castle Sol and the resurrection attempt was pre-planned yet failed. Such hubris may explain the martyrdom and the reluctant acceptance of being the Lord of the Duskborn, as the 'plan' was to be brought back.
I hadn't really thought about that but that is an interesting theory! Definitely makes sense of why the death spells use the cursemark instead of the rune of death when cast
Occam's Onion has an interesting theory that Marika was not a legitimate god: basically overthrowing the hornsent without the Outer Will's direct involvement, until she kicked off her age of plenty, and that the Outer Will sent it's Elden Beast to legitimize her and impose it's desired Golden Order Elden Ring configuration on her world.
Kitetasles has another interesting theory that Marika was not actually a shaman, but rather the first truly successful jar saint created by the hornsent potentates. Essentially they manufactured to to be a god, and when she found out how they did that, she nuked them. But because she was made to be a god, that would explain how she would be able to overthrow the hornsent order without Outer Will support. And if she is basically enprisoned by the Outer Will, that would explain why she would be willing to blow up so much to try and get free again.
Dlc reveals those who live in death have been around before marika rose to godhood
I think Godwyn was sent by Marika to the land of shadows to stop Mesmer. You have to die to get there or whatever they say so,
It could be, but Godwyn's death would be the reverse of that unfortunately. It is said that Miquella divested his flesh, where Godwyn's soul is destroyed but his body remains.
I still believe Radagon is a parasitic outer god (perhaps the Formless Mother?) or entity who infected Marika at some point and has been slowly taking over. I agree Marika was the mastermind with the goal of stopping Radagon. Marika broke the ring, Radagon tried to fix it unsuccessfully; although they might share the same body, they are both different entities with their own plans, thought, soul and mind. See that Red spear-like object piercing Marika? That's the true Radagon, that is NOT the rune of death or one of it's fragments. The rune of death makes it possible to kill Radagon. You should also include the Blacksmith as he is part of and confirms Marika's plan to "kill a God".
Dude, very well done! I think this really is most likely the truth
Thanks for watching!
Basically my man got jumped...maybe even hit with the sleep effect (st. Trina BS) and then they went BBC on him....😂
See I always found it odd one of the strongest demigods would just lose too a few assassin's tbh
Definitely seems strange considering Blaidd was able to fight off multiple of them.
Marika did not want Goldwyn to die,she was duped that is why Ranni has you do her bidding yet the black knives go after igi and blaid There was a betrayal within the conspirators.The fingers were not made by Marika the DLC tells us who did.Marika was tempted by power to become a god from the fingers.Seduction,then she found being a god was a prison as well as being cursed.She only wanted the unwanted children to be killed not Godwyn,Radagon wanted Godwyn to die you are close there.Godwyn could be a lord of the ring he was in the way of Radagons plans.And yes he was taking over that is why the tarnished were removed as well.But Marika made it so they could come back and kill radagon long before Godwyn died that was planned.That was not what Godwyn wanted to live in death and rot forever.Plans did not go down the way they planed it.Someone Radagon most likely did this,then like a chicken locked himself in thorns and hid like a coward.
Its obvious why... she needed a snicker. She's not her self when she is hungry
this is an interesting thesis
Marika is basically the Joker from The Dark Knight. Someone who just wants to see the world burn.
She does seem all over the place. I have a feeling she may have come into everything with good intentions. Making choices when the 'ends justify the means' only to realize that the end was not what she expected and realized she needed fix it.
Hoping we get a clearer picture with the DLC!
after playing the DLC, i now believe that Marika didn't plan Godwyn's death. It actually makes no sense for her to do that. All her children, except Godwyn were cursed. Godwyn was likely the favorite. Godwyn being taken away and forced to live eternally soulless, a mockery of Marika's vision of the Golder order (absent death), is a cruel twist of fate and karmic retribution which would understandably push her to the brink and shatter the ER. She must've thought that Grandam's curse eluded or missed Godwyn, but nah. A most cruel fate was reserved for him.
You cant tell me the man who defeated and befriended the ancient dragons just sat there and let the curse mark be carved into him without it being of his own will. Also the maliketh line about betrayal is such a good point, i always assumed the betrayal was the sealing of destined death but the way you describe it made perfect sense. Also i think its important to mention that the late game rememberances directly spoil lore aspects(the rot goddess remeberance reaffirms the "radagon is marika" thing) so this could be an example of a late game rememberance giving the game away
Hmmm, that's an interesting thought I never picked up on haha. The end game remembrances are just giving away things that people may have not figured out. Good call out!
They were invisible and there were several of them. Before the shattering none of the kids had fragments of the great rune.
@@DrooledOn how can you explain the twinned runes like the omens twins, the cursed twins, or radahn and rykard? Did each pair just happen to have matching runes?
@@copyninja8756 this is a lazy excuse. This is like going " it's just so you can fight godrick again!" In reference to Godefroy
@@copyninja8756 Possible, but at the end of Ranni's questline Blaidd fights off 3 or 4 of them, and Iji takes on 2. Total speculation but I think Godwyn planned to sacrifice himself. Especially when the Finger Reader calls him a martyr.
What if Godwin and Ranni both planned to kill their flesh so they can go to the realm of shadows and ascend to godhood with Godwin as the consort to Ranni. But them both having it carved into them at the same time caused the unexpected soul death of Godwin. Considering he is the first being in ER to be a giant soulless cancer I think its fair to say no one knew that could even happen.
While we deviate on Marika's method (in my video I argue she is akin to voldemort and her special children are her horcruxes), I LOVE how you call out godwyn as a martyr and use the finger reader as evidence. I wish I'd seen that before I made my video because that's a 10/10 point 😂
One note, when you were mentioning who else was conspiring- the item description of the blasphemous claw confirms rykard was allied with Ranni in the night of the black knifes. 😁 perhaps he had something to do with this profane ritual that created the knives, or he was in on it as a backup plan if there was a fall through.
She REWARDS him with it too, so clearly she is in charge.
Since I believe ranni is marika, obviously my take is a little different, in that I believe once ranni was positioned as she wants her to be she shattered the ring as the gunshot to signal the start of the finish of her grand plan 😁
10/10 video, sir!
Thank you! I think the Blasphemous Claw was a back up plan incase Maliketh came looking for the fragment. It says in the description that it is a way for Rykard to challenge Maliketh is the coming trespass is the transpire. I wasn't able to find any direct involvement from Rykard but its definitely possible he was involved in some way.
@Dekuzek the blasphemous claw is evidence of their alliance, it doesn't get much more clear cut than that lol
In addition, the official outside of melinas room has an outfit very reminiscent of the executioners in the paintings in rykards manor.
The carpet in the room is a variation of raya lucaria / caria too, so it's one giant conspiracy, by the looks of it l.
On Miquella, I don't think he was involved. The impression I get is he was being groomed to replace Marika, and was infatuated with Godwin the Golden as his Elden Lord, and when Godwin died (sort of) he tried to replace him with Redahn who was absolutely not interested.
I'd suspect that Marika would directly approach Ranni about making the black blade, because she knew Ranni has been studying under the Gloam-eyed Queen, who was an expert in Destined Death and creating god killing blades, and chaffing at the idea of being under the sway of the Greater Will. Even if Marika created the Two Fingers, she would know Ranni did not know that, and would likely see value in her rebellious nature. Whereas Miquella, basically wants to be the thing the Greater Will wants him to be, so any attempt to get around it could very easily get leaked back to the Greater Will if she involves him in it.
I'd even suspect Ranni hadn't even considered the Night of Black Knives before the idea to turn Godwin into a death god was brought to her, but was perfectly willing to take advantage of it.
Also, if Marika did create the various two fingers, even if she knew Ranni did not know that, I can absolutely see her sending Ranni's away after, or before giving her a piece of Destined Death to go make black knives with. Even without being aware of Ranni's idea to kill the soul of her fingers so she can shed her body, I could definitely see Ranni straight up killing her two fingers simply to be rid of them.
So to summarize: I don't see a reason Miquela would need to be involved, and a lot of reasons to keep him in the dark.
I can also see reasons for Marika to involve Ranni without either being aware of Ranni's plan, or Ranni's plan even existing at the time.
To me, the most likely course of events is Marika went to Ranni for assistance making the black knives, Ranni got ideas, and her two fingers got yoinked, and then Ranni improvised and completely balled up Marika and Godwin's plan. Then Miquella loses him marbles and starts stalking Redhan kicking off that whole disturbing arc.
Perhaps the Godwen are chosen to be her lord consort. So she killed him to end the chosen consort.
Motivations of Ranni are freedom above all. She killed Godwyn, because he was a litteral puppet of Marika and the Greaterwill with no possibility to escape.
So... she grantes him freedom. Entirely. And in the same actions, freed herself as well.
I mean, she can't target her siblings from Renalla since they are closer. Miquella and Malenia are both powerful Empyrians like her. Also I think those two are always together, making it hard to target 1. With Mohg and Morgott, she probably didn't even know they exist. Messmer is in the land of shadow (which she can't access even if she knew he was there). And lastly, Melina has no body to kill.
That leaves Godwin as the only logical choice left.
What if the true ending is all questlines spiraled into one story.
One thing I love about ER's endings is the fact that they are a perfect example of an RPG ending. Most players have their own idea of what the best ending is because of their interpretation and it's amazing, I can't think of any other game that has this level of discourse and opinions around the endings.
I think it was Just because Gdowyn was the perfect golden child that marika wanted and he prolly would’ve prolly been the primary Inheritor of the Golden order
And Ranni knew if she killed him then Marika would lose her mind and as a mother will and has done React in a violent and emotional way
Interesting, but wouldnt it be easier to just reintegrate the rune of death into the ER? Or is that not possible?
I think that was the end goal, but it would have been a big societal shift which is why I think she laid this plan, as a way to get the citizens of the Lands Between to accept death's integration rather than revolting against her.
I think marika planned everything.
The shattering was basically a stalemate between the greater will and those resisting it, a stalemate that lasted for thousands of years until some random tarnished came back into the picture.
The greater will had to kill her but still keep her there as a vessel after the ring was shattered, in order to maintain the last vestiges of its power.
The queen is sacrificing herself so the King can get the kill. Like a huge game of chess where someone was able to castle multiple times and willing to sacrifice everything in order to triumph. Some Enders game/end-game sort of scenario.
The tragedy is that all the people who idolized Godfrey were upholding an order that he was spurned by, and was set up as the inevitable usurpation of it.
Radahn, Morgott, etc. some of the most righteous characters are just pawns in the games of a power that doesn’t care for them ultimately.
Maybe Maliketh killed Marika, since the beasts are programmed to do that if empyreans rebel against the greater will.
Is that why he’s a monk? Is him being careless for one second really the reason he turns into an ascetic? Maybe he betrayed Marika, just like she betrayed him.
Idk, nobody has explained why she has that destined death blade in her. Food for thought.
I agree, Marika has a grand plan all along. I think the Tarnished & her words in the Church Of Pilgrimage confirm this.
As for the spear of death she is impaled with, I think she did this herself as a last ditch effort to destroy the Elden Beast.
Fire video I’m liked and subbed
I'm still confused was this all because they were afraid that Radagon will eventually take over and kill all of them?
I think the goal was Marika trying to fix her order or have a means to destroy the greater will. We know she was planning for the removal of Radagon/Elden Beast for quite some time based on her banishing the tarnished with a plan to bring them back, this just seems like one step before giving up on everything. Which she does by shattering the Elden Ring.
Good theory, wished people saw this more.
Thanks for watching! I'm glad you enjoyed it
Cool vid
Have some rambling for more engagement
Ive thought that Godwin was picked because of lack of opportunities
Both Rycard and Renala were on her side (blasphemous claw for Rycard if things went south with Maleketh)
Godrick was either too weak or too good at hiding in castles and groups of women to target
Radan was picking fights with stars so probably not the best match to bet on
The omen twins might not have been known (Morgot might have known them but maybe not vise versa) as the only interaction shown (to my memory) was morgot trying to stab Radan in the opening
And the OTHER twins probably outsmarted or outspeed assassins(?)
OR he was the only one with a great connection to the magic tree (everyone else either having other outer gods or not caring)
Finally I thought Malekeths abandonedment was the trick (why wasn't he just in the tree?)
That was my Ted talk goodnight
Also thought that the meteorite was astel but idk I'm no lore hunter
The big meteorite that crashed down in Limgrave is different from the Finger crashing down. That big meteorite could be Astel, but some items mentioning Astel talk as if it has been there for a long time. I agree with you that it is Astel crashing down
I just think based on the timeline of events, the crater that we find them in, the hole in the roof of Manus Celes and all the other fingers being dead, they must not have been underground the whole time. Taking their similarity in colour to Starlight shards into account I think it's safe to assume they were held in the cosmos until we defeat Radahn.
Godwyn, imho, was meant to die, not only that but i believe he agreed to it. what wasnt supposed to happen was Ranni's sabotaging of the event. i dont know if the black knives were supposed to be used as the instrument or if he was supposed to be killed through normal means
To me, I think the Black Knives were necessary as a way to wield destined death, to give Godwyn a true death.
A question: If Ranni interfered with Marika's plan. Does that mean the black knives who attack Iji and Blaidd at the end of Ranni's questline are sent by Marika? Are Marika and Ranni at war at that moment? Because that is what your theory would imply, right?
Based on Ranni hiding away I think it is a safe assumption.
I don't think Marika specifically sent the Black Knives to kill Iji and Blaidd, mainly because she is trapped in the Erdtree. There may have been orders to find and kill Ranni & her servants based on the face that Alecto is imprisoned at Moonlight Altar.
But I think that going was a decision they made on their own because of Ranni's betrayal. We know they were from the Eternal City, and the attack on Blaidd & Iji doesn't happen until after Ranni & the tarnished go through Nokstella. It's possible that this is when they found out that Ranni and her lot were still alive, deciding to go after Ranni, Blaidd & Iji. But of course only Blaidd & Iji remained when they attacked.
In light of the dlc, I wonder if Marika didn’t plan for Godwyn infecting the lands between with deathblight. If the lands between were born from the sacrifices of the lands of shadow, maybe the only way to undo the damage is to consume the lands between with death, causing a rebirth in the lands of shadow, which is possibly her true homeland (the whole numen thing a lie)
In the DLC we find out exactly where Marika is from. I won't spoil it if you haven't finished the DLC but we know where she is from. I have a video planned right now that will talk about Marika's origins.
Great theory, I enjoyed it. Although I’m not sure why marika would bother with all these complicated schemes when she could have just told maliketh she wanted to re-establish death into the golden order. It would have been an instant solution to her issue if that’s what she wanted. He would have been happy to oblige her but that’s just my two cents.
Maybe not. Maliketh is addicted to death at this point, constantly hungering for it. When he dies, he wonders if this what it was like to sin. Maybe Maliketh's sin was to refuse Marika in relinquishing the Rune of Death
I think part of the reason is that Marika had some intentions of using the rune of death on Radagon & or the Elden Beast. We are told that when Empyreans go against the Greater Will/Two Fingers their shadows go mad. Meaning that if Maliketh knew about Marika's plan he would go mad and attack Marika. Therefore she had to steal the rune as to not set off Maliketh.
Those are good arguments, didn’t think of that.
I get his idea that all these characters are dual beings, one is a soul and the other is the body. Ranni is the soul and Godwyn is the body. She separated herself from her body by separating herself from Godwyn.
Keep it up! I like your videos.
Thanks for watching!
What if Godwyn decided to sacrifice himself for Ranni, and not cos Marika orchestrated it? That would explain to me, why Marika was so crushed by grief, and decided to basically burn it all and shatter the elden ring, thus betraying everyone
It could be, but I couldn't find any evidence of Ranni having involvement with Godwyn. But, with this game you never know haha
@@Dekuzek mmm, not evidence, but the assumption from how he's being held by Black knives, while they carve the half rune, pretty gently and supporting his weight by hands, as if he was a willful sacrifice. And that would explain, why Michela would write such an epitaph before Godwyn's death, not after, as if he knew Ranni's plans, and (a phat theory of mine) may be that's why he sent Malenia to fight Radahn on his territory, to kill him and set Ranni's fate back running to find the piece of the weapon to kill her Two fingers as well. But hey, that's just a theory
@@user-hs9jx6wj9d I also thought that about how he is positioned in that image, it definitely looks like they are carving it while supporting him not while he tries to escape.
I do like the idea of Malenia being sent to kill Radahn to set Ranni's fate back in motion, that is a neat idea!
@@Dekuzek btw, atm I'm replaying ER, and Ranni mentions, that the Bell of awakening was given to her by Torrent's former master, who told her to give it to us, and we have a running theory, that Melina could be one of the aspects of Miquela, that theoretically implies, that Ranni knows him pretty close, as noone ever mentions, that he had a pet. So, I'm thinking, that these two could easily conspire Godwyn's death together. I'm hyped, that dlc is much closer now, and we will finally put all theories to the test
I don’t think you should twist any description that is provided to us in the game. When it says that half of the rune of death is carve on Godwyn and Rani at the same time, then that is what actually happened. Not Rani planning what she should do to herself later after Godwyn is killed.
Banger ass theory man
Thank you! Glad you liked it
Merika did not create the fingers lol
There is one thing about the theory that does not check out for me:
If the original plan was for Godwyn to die a full death, then the black knives should have carved the full curse mark into his body. No matter if Ranni carved one half into herself, if it wasn't her controlling the black knives then why would the black knives carve the exact other half that was required to complete the circle. Why do we not get 1 and a half curse mark?
If we look at Ranni's body & Godwyn's in the intro, they share an identical curse mark.
My interpretation is that the second half of the curse mark is not carved by the assassin in flesh but it is a curse mark on the soul that happens naturally when killed with DD.
This is why even the fingers that Ranni kills have a curse mark that matches the previous two even though they were killed individually.
This mans gotta be tall af
Only explanation for having arms this long
I think she did it to send a message. I also wonder if she did this because he was the most vulnerable. No way could these assassins take out radahn or malenia.
Could be to send a message however, we know that Godwyn wasn't the only Demi-God to die, the black knives killed multiple and we see them in the Walking Mausoleums. Godwyn may have been the easier of the Demi-Gods we know about but it seems like she also could have just went after a random one instead.
Godwyn history is really a tragedy. A perfect son, a symbol of an Order, a hero that defended the capital against the most strong creatures to ever live and even created an alliance with them. He is the first son of Marika with the first Elden Lord, he was even called ¨¨the golden¨¨, and then, he was killed with a knife in his back. Was his death necessary? was it worth for Ranni ending?...
Honestly, the best ending seems to be the Goldenmask. It is not the coolest, but seems to be the most wise. Goldenmask ending seems to fix everything going wrong, he is not going to forsake this world, or abandon him, he is not going to extreme decisions, he gets a rune to fix. He basically tries to reach perfection, and fix the mistakes of Gods and man.
Godwyn is a figure if the order that has long settled itself in the lands between. Although tolerant(to dragons, and glintstone sorcerers), this order was oppressive, especially to those considered without grace, or without light(the omens).
He might be "golden", but he's associated with something that isn't. He had brothers afflicted with the omen curse, but he doesn't do anything about it. Instead we're shown with how kind he was, befriending the dragon that attacked leyndell, and later on forming a cult.
Ranni saw through this hypocrisy, and that is why I believe she killed Godwyn, and herself. She recognizes that her existence as an empyrean can be a tool to free the men of TLB. With our help, she establishes a new order where no new orders can be formed(basically orderless), where gods cannot intervene(even herself), and where men are free. A true libertarian. But it is ambiguous in a sense that we do not know how the people of TLB will act once this takes place.
Gold mask's ending perfects the golden order, upholding its core values(ruthless and oppressive to those outside the order), but also removing the fickleness of men and demigods. Just like Ranni's, it is ambiguous in a sense that we do not know what comes after this. Maintaining an order, the golden order, might not be the best thing since you're not removing the influence of the greater will. As far as we know, there are other gods(the giants have their god, which was slain). There could be others just waiting.
I honestly do feel like Ranni's, and Gold mask's endings are of the same coin, but on the opposite sides. They're both ambiguous, and just as positive as they are negative.
I hope Kitetales sees this
Marika wanted to die. She made a sin, an act of cruelty that she regret not because of the act itself but because she ended up being inprisioned by its own nature as an outer god-dependant. She was cursed on every single way, being her sons the reflection of each single sin she commited (while i trully think her main sin was related to the hornsent and the chaman village, and the rest just being the other outer gods resentment for their lands between representatives being destroyed by her. All of them accursed at least one of her children).
She also had herself split in two, with her splitted other half having its own intentions and ambitions. She was being trolled by her own other part, wich must be frustrating . The outer god was giving her an only way to get out of the curse: kill the only bright thing she generated, Godwin the Golden. A true hero, strong, intelligent but also compasionate and comprehensive with those who deserved it (Fortisax for example). Everything was a whole sarcasm by the Greater Will, since all was set to be a complicated laberynth to get through. Marika basically asked for power to get revenge and ended up receiving a much more painfull curse instead. It seems unfair, but this is a depiction of revenge: revenge is a curse itself, the death of sane reasoning, the death of the soul wich receives not relief, but a deep and cold void of loneliness that is hard to escape from. Same as Marika's vow to an outter God...
There are 2 things: Godwyn sacrificed himself because he was cursed with something awful like the others OR, the Rune of Death choosed Godwyn first to die.
Elden Ring seems obsessed with dichotomy, and I feel it plays out in nearly asset.
Like the term outer gods implying "inner" gods, I think the Greater Will implies a lesser will, one that perhaps it overcame through some conflict.
I think Death itself might be the "lesser" will, and might by a God relating to the soul or spirit.
The Greater Will seems to only be of flesh and stone, never of spirit. In fact, it seems that Marika herself is who created "Grace", a cheap replacement for a guiding soul and perhaps the Greater Will loved this better than the fingers. Except that Grace belonged to her and not it.
It seems that Death was not a power they could control correctly or knew how to use, but perhaps it was being wielded correctly by another God and its avatars correctly in the Gloom Eyed Queen and her own demigods.
I don't think Godwyn died of his own accord, hence the need for assassins, but I do think he was the perfect weapon against the Erdtree and Golden Order. To eat it from the inside.
I do really wish we got more Gloam Eyed Queen info, but I feel like maybe Melina was a mix between both sides. From Marika and the Gloam.
Idk man, there are many things not fitting:
-Melina's role, who probably is the gloam eyed queen, as she is connected with the rune of death and promise to give you "destined death" if you become the lord of chaos
-Why Iji gets killed by black knife assassins if they were Ranni's allies
-Golden Epitaph is a weapon specific to kill undeads, so Miquella already knew that Godwyn was living in death and wanted him to be unalived completely
Hard to say about the GEQ/Melina having an involvement. We don't know when Melina manifested, and if she existed prior to the Shattering. While she is involved with Destined Death she doesn't have any control over it until after we release it from Maliketh.
Iji & Blaidd are attacked following the killing of Ranni's Fingers. In my other video I theorize that Marika created/controls the Two Fingers. I also believe that the Black Knives are loyal to Marika so I think it's likely that they attack Iji & Blaidd in response to Ranni killing her fingers.
I also don't know if the Golden Epitaph was designed to kill undead. I think it is just a consequence of it being a Holy weapon. Seeing that all Holy weapons are effective against Undead, not just this one.
If we look at the Art of War on the Golden Epitaph, it is called 'Last Rites' which means final prayers/blassings. Meaning it's more likely that this weapon was created as a final prayer for Godwyn, and not designed to kill him/other undead.
Of course this is speculation, so that's just what i believe.
@@Dekuzek I appreciate your pov!
Man i love how the lore is vague enough to let us speculate about it to keep us hooked in a good way :)
I think godwyn was gonna be her lord and she was going to take marikas place but she didn’t want that so she killed godwyns soul with one half of the hallowbrand and she killed her body with the other half
Edit: and put her soul in a doll
Edit: but every thing else I agree with
Unhinged title?lets fuking go
The conspiracy was between Ranni and Rykard
Ranni didnt do it at all... Marika did.
The game, through Rogier, keeps trying to make us think that Ranni killed Godwyn. But she didnt. Ranni made a Black Knife for herself, to kill herself.
Its all too much to explain in a text. It would take a video. But im not gonna do it.
Basiclly... Fia is manipulating us right from the start. Shes manipulating Rogier too (through sex, she admits to sleeping with him). To find the Cursemark and give it to Godwyn to complete his Great Rune. There is no item deacription evidence, or even enviromental evidence to suggest that Ranni was the one that gave the order to kill Godwyn. Only the story of an NPC who has every reason to lie to us.
Rogier gets us started. He tells us he is investigating a murder when we meet him in Stormveil.
Fia tells us Rogier is invetigating a murder and that she has no idea what he is talking about but we should help him (this is odviously a Lie as we know Fia is Godwyns Deathbed Companion, she knows the murder victim personally)
After we find the Godwyn face in the depths, Rogier is different. Now he cant walk. And he needs us to go to Nokron for him.
Then we return with the Knifeprint. A mold used to make the Black Knives. He tells us it was last used by Ranni. This is true.
But it wasnt MADE by Ranni. It was used by the Eternal Cities. Which are where the Black Knife Assassins are from. They are also Numen, like Marika. Not Carians like Ranni. So Numen are using Eternal Cities technology combined with the Rune of Death to become Assassins.
After Marika broke death away from the Elden Ring, she gave it to Maliketh. That means she had access to the Rune of Death. She ALWAYS could make Black Knives.
The Black Knife Assassins are MARIKAS assassins. Not Ranni's. They work for Marika. Which is why they attack Ranni's rise after Ranni leaves.
Furthermore, the Officials Attire, the one in Melinas room with the Blade of Calling (the one with the same move set at rhe Black Knives) suggests the officals conducted survalence, executions, and Gruesome Rituals. And that robe matches the Marias Robe, who we know were offical Executioners for the Royal Family.
So i posit the Officals who used the Blade of Calling and conducted ritual executions for the Crown eventually turned into the Black Knife Assassins as Marikas personal body guard
Also also furthermore furthermore. Everyone forgets the Night of Long Knives (the actual real historic event) was the Nazis PURGING the left wing elements from the Nazi party by murdering them all at once.
So it makes more sense if Marika is killing a subbordinate and not two subbordinates of Marika fighting eachother.