I just counted today that I have shot 165 rolls of film this year. That's quite something! I am enjoying the process and having fun with it just like I did when I started photography 25 years ago.
It's not the film camera that is the problem, it's the film. Expensive and requires toxic chemicals to develop. You'd be surprised at how fast you will get tired of having only 36 exposures, processing film, printing, digitizing (back to digital), etc. I did that in the 70s and 80s and glad I don't have to do that anymore. Each piece of paper costs. Each roll of film costs. Chemicals cost. What digital has done for me is vastly reduce the cost of photography. It's just different. I recently bought 2 rolls of film, one B&W, the other color. $50 later, I threw it all away. The lab ruined the whole thing. None of the pictures were worthy of saving. You have to find a lab that does excellent work, pay through the nose and end up back where you started, all images digitized.
@bondgabebond4907 I get what you say but I think the thrill of it is that 36 exposures really means 36 chances. This generation of new photographers see everything and more, but doesn't grasp it, but 36 exposures will. I will say chemicals have come a long way, while color isn't perfect, b&w is really safe overall since the presence of local material (coffee, potassium, baking soda), I think the digitalization of the photo is a hybrid of old way and new ways ofthinking, but the cherishing of a moment. I think 2020 did a lot to people, and one way is that lack of cherishment before.
@@bondgabebond4907I think you have been unlucky is all. I’ve been shooting film for 2 years now and I’ve had results I’m so happy about even developing and scanning at home. Developing is like following a recipe. As far as the cost, well I don’t disagree with you..
@@bondgabebond4907 There are so many ways you can reduce costs related to film: buy a 100' roll and fill canisters yourself, develop yourself, and scan/print yourself. The chemicals also haven't been "toxic" for some time. It's great that *you* enjoy digital, but a lot of people don't and prefer the in-depth process of actually creating photographs.
I really enjoyed this conversation. It was the most interesting I've heard on this topic and enlightened my understanding of why film photography is still so important.
Just my take, but as someone who took part in the vinyl resurgence 20-something years ago, I think the parallels to film photography are actually quite strong (just like digital music is there to fall back on, so is digital photography). That said, I think there is a key difference in that music on vinyl is something that you experience or “consume” and film photography is something that you “do”. It’s a difference between artistic appreciation and artistic expression or creation, and I think that may play into longevity. But the reasons I’m hearing from GenZ’ers about why they’re drawn to analogue photography is a pretty good mirror to why I got into vinyl in my teens, and from the takes I’ve heard the draw has less to do with the results of the photography and more to do with the process or act of it. But there’s 8 billion people out there so there’s bound to be a variety of driving forces! 😄
This is an amazing example of an in-depth conversation covering what’s really happening. The section on 2nd hand cameras is exactly what i wanted to know. Thank you so much for this!
There are two things I want to mention here: The Filmomat team is working on automatizing the camera scanning workflow and I think we’ll see some solutions from them that will really make it much more viable for labs to use cameras in their workflow. The second thing is that Kodak’s whole color film production is still tied to the movie site of their business. I think they still don’t sell enough still films for them to justify running that big factory on that alone. But the movie site is doing great so I’m not worried about Kodak being able to keep things running.
I have not tested the updated Smart Convert but I have heard and seen some amazing results with it. Tethering, plus Smart converts automated conversion is amazing. -Tuomas
The problem with digital is, we take too many digital photos and we cannot print them all. Therefore, digital photos are inevitably doomed to be lost one day due to technology failure. Every photo you take on film, on the other hand, is preserved on a negative. When you find old negatives 50 years on, you realise how important a negative is.
As a 43 year old and shooting digital since 20 years ago, I'm a recent film convert and I love everything about it. I love shooting with old cameras, rangefinders and SLRs without screens, and I'm always eager to develop and scan the negatives at home. It's an incredible feeling of accomplishment when the photos are well processed and exposed, it's like I'm slowly mastering the craft of photography in the real sense. I also become quite comfortable shooting without a light meter, as long as I'm outdoors. I never had this feeling with digital. I now "hate" immediate results. For all these reasons I'll continue investing on film and I probably never buy a digital camera again (after having several mirrorless cameras I now have a Nikon Df which is the closest thing to a classic SLR, but I mainly use it for film scanning or when I have to shoot indoors).
It’s a tough call. There’s essentially only 1 company making color film. That’s a huge weak point. On the other hand , as AI generated images are becoming more common place, digital images are becoming less valuable, people trust them less. Film and other vintage mediums are becoming a mark of authenticity so their value appears to increase. The currency of real will go up in value in the age of ai generated everything . 😊
This is the true Ai ITs a stupid thing.,...I ve come back tó film photography ITs also expensive but ITs real photography isnt ai and digital. Photography future Will be very interesting,.,
I think Dan is making a big point: young adults see the importance of once in a livetime events to be documented on a unique medium. But having said that, there's is another important point to make. Film is not only a unique medium, but it's real! Off course everything can be munipulated - analog or digital. But being analog it's less likely to munipulate than digital imagery. Another point - allthough one have to wait for processing the film and get prints vs a digital display - old school media have direct feeling to it. Like manual focus and setting your shutterspeed. DYI self printing digitized film not only becomes cheaper, but better quality aswell.
Film looks better, end of story. I sell framed black and white photographs. Every customer I have buys my work because of how it looks based on its film aesthetic. I hear words like 'old', 'vintage', 'classic', etc. Some think my framed works are drawings. Film, especially B&W looks better than digital. It always will. No argument can win.
Add. point: Disposing used chemicals became more difficult compared to 10yr back. Reason is that the community (disposal stations) are no more used with photo chemicals.
I started shooting film again in 2010. I don't think I'll stop as long as I can. Price is not a deciding factor for me. I only shoot black and white. Only 35mm and medium format. I buy 35mm in big rolls and load them myself with a Bobinkick. I also develop and scan at home. And I shoot quite a bit! No, I don't think chemical photography is going to die. In fact, I just bought a Distagon for my Hasselblad from your shop today. I hope it flies to Spain soon. It was already on my radar and with this talk you gave me the final push. I think it's a good business model to get used material, repair it and give it a new life, in this world of use and throw away.
I enjoy every bit of it. Shooting, self developing, scanning, soon also printing. It calms me down. Pure me time. Digital gives me nothing. It just feels lifeless. Doing my part to keeping film alive
This was lovely to watch :) Thanks for sharing it! A good book I can recommend that answers a lot similar questions about the resurgence of analog things is "The Revenge of Analog” by David Sax.
It's easy to answer; take for example vinyl records; when the CD came out, everyone simply relagated them to history. Today, purist only swear by analog audio, hence, some new music is getting published on vinyl records while the CDs are dead themselves. Personally, I am old enough to have started with film photography in the 70's with a Canon AE-1; then I moved to DSLR and I have stopped short of mirrorless. I have gathered my AE-1, and I have returned to film. I feel that shooting film helps you to be a better photographer. Since phones have now taken over, shooting film is kind of the new photography. The only drawback I see, unfortunately, is compared to my film days in the 70's, using film has now gotten extremely expensive. First the films themselves, but all the processing and printing. In my town (Houston, Texas), processing a 35mm 36 shots costs 15 dollars.
Wow at $15 per 36 exposure roll I’d look into shipping your film to a good lab that’s more affordable and pay the shipping fees usually being around $8 each way. That way if you just wait to send your film until you have several rolls it will pay off. The local labs here in San Francisco/Berkeley/Oakland which have been serving the community at a very high quality for 40+, 50+ years are around $8-$9 per roll for processing and then I scan with an old digital camera at home. Pretty economic and I’m shooting maybe 60+ rolls/year on average.
@@analogish2046 Thanks for taking the time to reply. As I am returning to film after decades of digital, I am in my testing the photographer and equipment phase. I need to have the results of my night shooting as quickly as possible before I take a trip to Paris to do some street shooting. Once I have confirmed everything works, including me, I will most likely only do processing and then digitize the negatives myself on a scanner.
Great discussion and great takes as well. The only thing I would highly disagree with is the example of vinyl being a short term blip for younger people similar to how fashion trends change. In fact I believe that the resurgence of vinyl is very much like the interest in film by younger people. As he pointed out these digital/screen natives grew up with internet being already a thing and even more so many grew entirely post the CD or even USB-storage medium era. For them listening to music has primarily been through a streaming service. So in that aspect they never experienced what it feels like to actually own or even touch their music collection. Along with that they often listened to singles through automated algorthims instead of "putting on an album". People like that are now finding their way to vinyl and experience what it's like to own, collect and actively develop their taste (through individual purchase decisions). For the first time they own music on an actual physical medium and along with that they get to experience music through a ritual (putting on the record, turning it, seeing individual tracks through grooves etc). Those who experience this for the first time are less likely to drop it, especially once they started to buy a few records slowly building up their proud collection.
Re AI: I think AI is being viewed in the wrong way, it has nothing to do with photography. Generative AI is just like drawing. You imagine something and then instead of your hands doing it, a machine does it. Photography will always be an extract of some sort of reality. AI is imagining something. It’s not a given reality. Assistive AI is just a clever tool to help you with things. I think it’s important to keep the things separate. Think about this: did people start saying photorealistic paintings were replacing photography? No. AI is similar. It’s just a different thing that can “look like” photos, but that doesn’t make it a photograph.
Great discussion to begin with. I never stopped shooting film and since about three years shoot film almost exclusively. The experience is hard to beat with digital. As someone sitting in front of a computer screen all day long at the job, I don't want to do that with my photography. Having said that, I'm open to modern developments like SilberSalz35 scanning with 150MP Phase One. Not sure I will ever go back to the darkroom for all of my analog photography. Black and white maybe yes. The beauty is that everybody is free in choosing the process, after shooting with film it's pretty much on everybody's own taste whether to continue in analog or have the film scanned and processed for printing etc.
Currently I'm selling my rather large and pretty high quality film camera collection on eBay. Will they shift like it's 2020? No, buyers are not interested. I've sold before and seen these things fly out my house.
Very interesting conversations, thank you :) I have been shooting on film since about 2011, and its great to see new film cameras being released and film stocks coming back : ) Maintaning old film cameras is a challenge especially with the cost and the dwindling skilled employees. How would one become a camera technician? are there courses available?
CR used to run some technician schools here in Kamerastore but for now we have put them on pause. I guess the most straight forward would be to get a mentor or a teacher. Thank you for watching! -Tuomas
@@Kamerastore Interesting! I will have to have to keep searching for a teacher / mentor in my area, greetings from Innsbruck! I loved these conversations, it would be interesting to revisit these same topics annually and see how things are progressing in each category. Look forward to learning more in your next videos- Paul
Nope, the more the trendy ones demand sharper and sharper lenses with no soul or character , film looks even more desirable .... The look, feel and ability to convey emotion you get with film just can't be matched.
I am using a Canonet QL17 Giii, a Voigtländer Bessa 6x9 from about the 1930th and a smartphone. Since I like slides, I‘ve also exposed digital smartphone photos to slidefilm (there is a service for that) and it was amazing. I would like to photograph black and white slides too, but I am hesitant to develop it on my own.
Very nice! I saw the documentary on The Impossible Project. Vertigo! I have a Polaroid back for my Mamyia RZ67... 😢 and the last Polaroid pack I put in broke and corroded the inside of the back... so sad.
No I think it has a place as a Sustainable choice. Electronics are the most threatened media as Rare Metals become higher value. Storing digital images will become increasingly costly and difficult. Unless a new form of recording arises ?
Film won’t die from less users but maybe from environmental footprint in the production. Ai will also probably be able to finally reproduce the “film look” for real. But from an analog camera perspective I think we will se a sensor that will fit old film cameras soon.
On the commercial processing equipment side, I will admit to the economic, quality and environmental benefits of dry-printing (inkjet) over RA-4. But that does mean that Noritsu has little incentive to actively support the film revival. Noritsu's printing business does not require film shooting, merely photography, film or digital. Noritsu has, as of 2023, shown no interest in reviving their commercial scanner lines or film processing equipment, despite interest in this possibility shown by their non-Japan partners. Colenta might see some opportunities world wide. A tour of Colenta's facilities might be a mutually welcome proposition for a UA-cam channel interested in the future of large scale consumer film developing.
In a way, I think the AI "revolution" is getting people to think and want more more authenticity, and film is the most authentic medium there is. As for cameras (and accompanying lenses), I find that it's getting harder to find good specimens on the used market.
Film has been pushed so far out of the mainstream it’s practically dead now. Film costs, limited access to film processing, and the scarcity of workable cameras along with a dwindling supply of parts all signal the end of the road.
I see no scarcity of workable cameras. Last Nikon F6-s and FM10-s were made in 2020.(canon eos 1v 2018) I currently shoot 44 year old Canon A1 which is going strong. 40 years from now i can buy that 2020 F6. Problem on the cost side is with color film. I have doubts about will it remain in the long run but black and white is not too expensive. Film production in general at the moment at least is on the rise. Since film is now only shot as a hobby cost is not that important.
Actually the imminent death of still photo film has been 'predicted' since the 1970s. And even earlier for motion picture film, going back to the advent of video tape in the 1950s even. It seems there is always someone that can't wait for it to die.
And what about companies like Silbersalz that uses modern high performance Apollo cinema films scanners for photography that outperform completely old machines like Frontier's Noritsu's ... ?
Does film photography have a future for commercial purposes? Probably not. Does film photography have a future as an art medium? Probably. Digital has gained enormous ground in the commercial visual arts, animation, graphics, photography, cinematography etc. And while we call those commercial ventures "arts", we forget that financial incentive and cost benefit analysis has driven these fields to digital as digital has lowered cost overhead. The question is, in the art for art sake, hobby, and as a medium on its own will film survive? From what we are seeing with Kodak rebuilding their film production capabilities, the sales of new film, and the sales of used film cameras with ever increasing prices as demand rises, anecdotally the evidence is strong that film will continue on. Any judgement that film is superior or inferior to digital is a vapid an argument as whether oil is better than water color. They are both distinct mediums with their own attributes.
Film photography is no more "fun" than digital photography. The problem with film photography is that it's an expensive chore. If you've tried it, you'll know. For film photography to remain viable its end product, the (film) print, HAS to be look more impressive than its digital counterpart. That's going to be tough.
My main concern is that these film companies are not r&ding enough for film. Make it cheaper, more will use it. Fix the old cameras instead of making new ones. I rather spend a thousand bucks on a lens instead of 3000 exposures. The only use case, if you want the photos to never touch the interwebs. A few days ago, I shot over 15k digital photos with maybe ~3k keepers. There's a substitute to getting the same photo and alot of people and their fomo will be a death to a stagnant economic system. Everyone forgets, that it takes resources to create physical goods. And it's just not sustainable, Costco used to develop at a fraction of the cost. I enjoy film as well, but I don't think I'll go back unless I win the lifetime lottery
Most of us will get fed up with the analog complications and the digital guys will finally offer presets that make the use of film nonsensical. What I miscalculated was my own craziness. Now I am shooting 120 and 135 but the results do not justify. After five rolls, I am ready to give up. BUT I see old foxes make the most beautiful BW images ever. The major misunderstanding is that the skill would come easy. The guys who have done darkroom for decades make lovely images. It does not mean that you can. My question is: How are we going to display and share our "film" pictures? This is a passing fad.
I've been shooting film for the last decade or so. I tend only to shoot black and white due to the cost of colour. I've accepted It may never be a viable option. I tend to leave the colour to digital. So in that sense I think colour film may be the only loser in the film world.
Not any more than any other modern manufacturing (cars, cell phones, batteries, clothing, plastics etc). In fact I'd guess film manufacturing is so niche now it's hardly a blip on the radar, even if it were toxic. But Kodak was actually at the forefront of innovation in cleaning up the process, in terms of raw ingredients, waste and chemistry disposal. They did most of this back in the 80s and 90s thankfully, and the other manufacturers follow those standards. I'd personally like to see the plastic 35mm containers changed to cardboard or paper wrap. There's way too much plastic being thrown away in all aspects of our lives.
Digital also has a huge impact on environment. All the resource in terms of electronics (rare metals) and the biggest thing - power to run data centers. Just having watched that video has an impact. On top of that we tend to replace our digital hardware every couple of years. It becomes obsolete so quick. Not even talking about Li-Ion battery waste. A good film camera when maintained can be 70 years old and still in use. As a matter of fact we tend to value the older equipment even more sometimes since it has also collectable value.
Must be some. As with all manufacturing I guess. The scale of using, manufacturing and recycling it is just so small compared to...well for example food waste or electric cars, clothing and even farming in some scenarios. As a disclaimer, I am not an expert. :D -Tuomas
I have done photography with film from 1970 to 2006, both as a professional and as a hobby photographer, I do NOT miss film and I hope that film will fade away, so all the chemicals involved also can fade away !!!
Others will hope your digital files will fade away and be lost. I do not miss digital and the very high cost of the cameras and lenses and their short lifetimes and resulting environmental pollution relarive to mechanical second hand film cameras.
Both have advantages and disadvantages. Aside all processing and cost topics discussed so often: Analog needs/waste chemistry incl. rare silver, but can be made/seen/used/stored without any computer involvement Digital on other hand allow 1:1 copies for backup/archive/distribution
@@FrankTitzeArt don't forget high capital cost of modern digital cameras and leneses and relatively short lifetimes, leading to high waste and pollution relative to mechanical film cameras. Furthermore digital storage media itself is environmentally polluting to make and dispose of when no longer useful. The short life cycle for modern digital cameras means the depreciation is high and waste is high. There is no such thing as a "free" digital photo, it has a cost both variable and fixed as well as environmentally.
@jamesprivet: Digital camera cost: Yes and No. My background point of view: I am doing analog (primary) non-commerical photography since mid 80s. I did just digital 2012-2022. Since 2022 I do both: digital and analog . My cameras/lenses overall are in average ~40 yr old (1926 - 2014). - Aside of my phone being being ~6yr old. So I am for sure not a "latest gear addicted". ;-) I would call it / focus on "total lifespan/usage consumption" in terms of cost/resources&waste/energy/... broken down - per raw picture made (raw == not printed) in real or - could be made until EOL of camera/lens. From this/these point of view(s) getting a clear answer is not such easy. BTW: ignoring any kind of real/perceived quality differences between analog and digital for now. Further more, and despite I benefited myself a lot from the still low prices of today's used (esp. medium/large) format cameras/lenses, we should not forget the "real" prices of such in case they would be made new today. Digging into some historic prices of my stuff, I realized that many new analog gear prices are very stable over decades. This applies when taking inflation into account. A very good example is my 1954 Linhof Technika III. Looking on/for prices, I realized that from the 1920s (!) to 2023 the new Technika prices stayed ~ same. Current (2023) Master Technika classic is 7.260 EUR (w/o lens). Same calc works also well with many other brands/gear as long prices lists were available (up to ~ 2005/10) and can be (in my mind) safely extrapolated till today. Or in sum: Just computation (all digital) became cheaper over the years. all mechanical/analog not really if same standards are taken. Sure: Today we see progress in lens design and manufactoring overall, but for most use cases they are not such relevant.
I just counted today that I have shot 165 rolls of film this year. That's quite something! I am enjoying the process and having fun with it just like I did when I started photography 25 years ago.
That’s impressive. I’ve shot…maybe 15 rolls. Shame on me. -Tuomas
amazing ! i'm curious, which camera and roll did you shoot with the most? i shoot 16 rolls this year, i started analog photography 3 years ago.
Damn that's a lot. What do you shoot? 120 6x9 or 135-36? I shot 'only' 35 rolls 120 this year, and 10 or 15 135
I believe we’re at the start of a new film revolution. I’ve been digital for years have a lot of equipment but now I’m looking at film cameras.
It's not the film camera that is the problem, it's the film. Expensive and requires toxic chemicals to develop. You'd be surprised at how fast you will get tired of having only 36 exposures, processing film, printing, digitizing (back to digital), etc. I did that in the 70s and 80s and glad I don't have to do that anymore. Each piece of paper costs. Each roll of film costs. Chemicals cost. What digital has done for me is vastly reduce the cost of photography. It's just different.
I recently bought 2 rolls of film, one B&W, the other color. $50 later, I threw it all away. The lab ruined the whole thing. None of the pictures were worthy of saving. You have to find a lab that does excellent work, pay through the nose and end up back where you started, all images digitized.
@bondgabebond4907 I get what you say but I think the thrill of it is that 36 exposures really means 36 chances. This generation of new photographers see everything and more, but doesn't grasp it, but 36 exposures will. I will say chemicals have come a long way, while color isn't perfect, b&w is really safe overall since the presence of local material (coffee, potassium, baking soda), I think the digitalization of the photo is a hybrid of old way and new ways ofthinking, but the cherishing of a moment. I think 2020 did a lot to people, and one way is that lack of cherishment before.
@@bondgabebond4907I think you have been unlucky is all. I’ve been shooting film for 2 years now and I’ve had results I’m so happy about even developing and scanning at home. Developing is like following a recipe. As far as the cost, well I don’t disagree with you..
@@bondgabebond4907 There are so many ways you can reduce costs related to film: buy a 100' roll and fill canisters yourself, develop yourself, and scan/print yourself. The chemicals also haven't been "toxic" for some time. It's great that *you* enjoy digital, but a lot of people don't and prefer the in-depth process of actually creating photographs.
I really enjoyed this conversation. It was the most interesting I've heard on this topic and enlightened my understanding of why film photography is still so important.
Just my take, but as someone who took part in the vinyl resurgence 20-something years ago, I think the parallels to film photography are actually quite strong (just like digital music is there to fall back on, so is digital photography). That said, I think there is a key difference in that music on vinyl is something that you experience or “consume” and film photography is something that you “do”. It’s a difference between artistic appreciation and artistic expression or creation, and I think that may play into longevity. But the reasons I’m hearing from GenZ’ers about why they’re drawn to analogue photography is a pretty good mirror to why I got into vinyl in my teens, and from the takes I’ve heard the draw has less to do with the results of the photography and more to do with the process or act of it. But there’s 8 billion people out there so there’s bound to be a variety of driving forces! 😄
This is an amazing example of an in-depth conversation covering what’s really happening. The section on 2nd hand cameras is exactly what i wanted to know. Thank you so much for this!
Amazing to hear! Great boost to make more of these interviews. Thank you for watching. :) -Tuomas
Not only will film photography not die, I'm thinking about investing in refrigeration company shares. 😂
Coming soon: Kamerastore film minifridges?
🤔 Thanks for watching!
- Connor
I think the biggest contribution analog process gives is the actual limits of the medium. Limitation is the genisis of creativity.
There are two things I want to mention here:
The Filmomat team is working on automatizing the camera scanning workflow and I think we’ll see some solutions from them that will really make it much more viable for labs to use cameras in their workflow.
The second thing is that Kodak’s whole color film production is still tied to the movie site of their business. I think they still don’t sell enough still films for them to justify running that big factory on that alone. But the movie site is doing great so I’m not worried about Kodak being able to keep things running.
I have not tested the updated Smart Convert but I have heard and seen some amazing results with it. Tethering, plus Smart converts automated conversion is amazing. -Tuomas
/me, looks over at the 100' roll of 16mm I shot of my kids this weekend: "Yep, kids and film".
The problem with digital is, we take too many digital photos and we cannot print them all. Therefore, digital photos are inevitably doomed to be lost one day due to technology failure. Every photo you take on film, on the other hand, is preserved on a negative. When you find old negatives 50 years on, you realise how important a negative is.
As a 43 year old and shooting digital since 20 years ago, I'm a recent film convert and I love everything about it. I love shooting with old cameras, rangefinders and SLRs without screens, and I'm always eager to develop and scan the negatives at home. It's an incredible feeling of accomplishment when the photos are well processed and exposed, it's like I'm slowly mastering the craft of photography in the real sense. I also become quite comfortable shooting without a light meter, as long as I'm outdoors. I never had this feeling with digital. I now "hate" immediate results. For all these reasons I'll continue investing on film and I probably never buy a digital camera again (after having several mirrorless cameras I now have a Nikon Df which is the closest thing to a classic SLR, but I mainly use it for film scanning or when I have to shoot indoors).
It’s a tough call. There’s essentially only 1 company making color film. That’s a huge weak point. On the other hand , as AI generated images are becoming more common place, digital images are becoming less valuable, people trust them less. Film and other vintage mediums are becoming a mark of authenticity so their value appears to increase. The currency of real will go up in value in the age of ai generated everything . 😊
This is the true
Ai ITs a stupid thing.,...I ve come back tó film photography ITs also expensive but ITs real photography isnt ai and digital.
Photography future Will be very interesting,.,
I think Dan is making a big point: young adults see the importance of once in a livetime events to be documented on a unique medium. But having said that, there's is another important point to make. Film is not only a unique medium, but it's real! Off course everything can be munipulated - analog or digital. But being analog it's less likely to munipulate than digital imagery.
Another point - allthough one have to wait for processing the film and get prints vs a digital display - old school media have direct feeling to it. Like manual focus and setting your shutterspeed.
DYI self printing digitized film not only becomes cheaper, but better quality aswell.
B+W will probably be available long after color is gone and i will be there for it.
Such an insightful conversation! Thanj you!!
me: tearing the curtain backplate of a junk minolta 35 model ii without knowing what i'm doing, while listening to this
Film looks better, end of story. I sell framed black and white photographs. Every customer I have buys my work because of how it looks based on its film aesthetic. I hear words like 'old', 'vintage', 'classic', etc. Some think my framed works are drawings. Film, especially B&W looks better than digital. It always will. No argument can win.
This was a great conversation. Very insightful.
Add. point: Disposing used chemicals became more difficult compared to 10yr back. Reason is that the community (disposal stations) are no more used with photo chemicals.
I started shooting film again in 2010. I don't think I'll stop as long as I can. Price is not a deciding factor for me. I only shoot black and white. Only 35mm and medium format. I buy 35mm in big rolls and load them myself with a Bobinkick. I also develop and scan at home. And I shoot quite a bit! No, I don't think chemical photography is going to die. In fact, I just bought a Distagon for my Hasselblad from your shop today. I hope it flies to Spain soon. It was already on my radar and with this talk you gave me the final push. I think it's a good business model to get used material, repair it and give it a new life, in this world of use and throw away.
I enjoy every bit of it. Shooting, self developing, scanning, soon also printing. It calms me down. Pure me time. Digital gives me nothing. It just feels lifeless. Doing my part to keeping film alive
This resonates in my quite a bit. I guess the film work flow has almost this detoxifying character. I mean from all this digital life we live. -Tuomas
This was lovely to watch :) Thanks for sharing it! A good book I can recommend that answers a lot similar questions about the resurgence of analog things is "The Revenge of Analog” by David Sax.
It's easy to answer; take for example vinyl records; when the CD came out, everyone simply relagated them to history. Today, purist only swear by analog audio, hence, some new music is getting published on vinyl records while the CDs are dead themselves.
Personally, I am old enough to have started with film photography in the 70's with a Canon AE-1; then I moved to DSLR and I have stopped short of mirrorless. I have gathered my AE-1, and I have returned to film.
I feel that shooting film helps you to be a better photographer. Since phones have now taken over, shooting film is kind of the new photography.
The only drawback I see, unfortunately, is compared to my film days in the 70's, using film has now gotten extremely expensive. First the films themselves, but all the processing and printing. In my town (Houston, Texas), processing a 35mm 36 shots costs 15 dollars.
Wow at $15 per 36 exposure roll I’d look into shipping your film to a good lab that’s more affordable and pay the shipping fees usually being around $8 each way. That way if you just wait to send your film until you have several rolls it will pay off. The local labs here in San Francisco/Berkeley/Oakland which have been serving the community at a very high quality for 40+, 50+ years are around $8-$9 per roll for processing and then I scan with an old digital camera at home. Pretty economic and I’m shooting maybe 60+ rolls/year on average.
@@analogish2046 Thanks for taking the time to reply. As I am returning to film after decades of digital, I am in my testing the photographer and equipment phase. I need to have the results of my night shooting as quickly as possible before I take a trip to Paris to do some street shooting. Once I have confirmed everything works, including me, I will most likely only do processing and then digitize the negatives myself on a scanner.
@@analogish2046 I dropped my film this morning; $10.83 just for the processing. In fact, the total cost will be around $30; pickup next Monday.
Great discussion and great takes as well. The only thing I would highly disagree with is the example of vinyl being a short term blip for younger people similar to how fashion trends change. In fact I believe that the resurgence of vinyl is very much like the interest in film by younger people. As he pointed out these digital/screen natives grew up with internet being already a thing and even more so many grew entirely post the CD or even USB-storage medium era. For them listening to music has primarily been through a streaming service. So in that aspect they never experienced what it feels like to actually own or even touch their music collection. Along with that they often listened to singles through automated algorthims instead of "putting on an album". People like that are now finding their way to vinyl and experience what it's like to own, collect and actively develop their taste (through individual purchase decisions). For the first time they own music on an actual physical medium and along with that they get to experience music through a ritual (putting on the record, turning it, seeing individual tracks through grooves etc). Those who experience this for the first time are less likely to drop it, especially once they started to buy a few records slowly building up their proud collection.
Re AI: I think AI is being viewed in the wrong way, it has nothing to do with photography. Generative AI is just like drawing. You imagine something and then instead of your hands doing it, a machine does it. Photography will always be an extract of some sort of reality. AI is imagining something. It’s not a given reality. Assistive AI is just a clever tool to help you with things. I think it’s important to keep the things separate. Think about this: did people start saying photorealistic paintings were replacing photography? No. AI is similar. It’s just a different thing that can “look like” photos, but that doesn’t make it a photograph.
Millions of people are already seeing AI pictures and thinking them to be real, it absolutely affects photography.
Film photography will never die 🥰
While we live😊
Great discussion to begin with. I never stopped shooting film and since about three years shoot film almost exclusively. The experience is hard to beat with digital. As someone sitting in front of a computer screen all day long at the job, I don't want to do that with my photography. Having said that, I'm open to modern developments like SilberSalz35 scanning with 150MP Phase One. Not sure I will ever go back to the darkroom for all of my analog photography. Black and white maybe yes. The beauty is that everybody is free in choosing the process, after shooting with film it's pretty much on everybody's own taste whether to continue in analog or have the film scanned and processed for printing etc.
Thank you for watching! A lot of good points and thoughts here. -Tuomas
Currently I'm selling my rather large and pretty high quality film camera collection on eBay. Will they shift like it's 2020? No, buyers are not interested. I've sold before and seen these things fly out my house.
Very interesting conversations, thank you :) I have been shooting on film since about 2011, and its great to see new film cameras being released and film stocks coming back : )
Maintaning old film cameras is a challenge especially with the cost and the dwindling skilled employees. How would one become a camera technician? are there courses available?
CR used to run some technician schools here in Kamerastore but for now we have put them on pause. I guess the most straight forward would be to get a mentor or a teacher. Thank you for watching! -Tuomas
@@Kamerastore Interesting! I will have to have to keep searching for a teacher / mentor in my area, greetings from Innsbruck! I loved these conversations, it would be interesting to revisit these same topics annually and see how things are progressing in each category. Look forward to learning more in your next videos- Paul
Nope, the more the trendy ones demand sharper and sharper lenses with no soul or character , film looks even more desirable .... The look, feel and ability to convey emotion you get with film just can't be matched.
I am using a Canonet QL17 Giii, a Voigtländer Bessa 6x9 from about the 1930th and a smartphone.
Since I like slides, I‘ve also exposed digital smartphone photos to slidefilm (there is a service for that) and it was amazing.
I would like to photograph black and white slides too, but I am hesitant to develop it on my own.
I love my Pentax (35mm) Rolleiflex (120mm) and Wista (4x5 inches)
Now I wish there were more reasonable priced development labs in local areas .
Very nice! I saw the documentary on The Impossible Project. Vertigo! I have a Polaroid back for my Mamyia RZ67... 😢 and the last Polaroid pack I put in broke and corroded the inside of the back... so sad.
No I think it has a place as a Sustainable choice.
Electronics are the most threatened media as Rare Metals become higher value. Storing digital images will become increasingly costly and difficult.
Unless a new form of recording arises ?
Nice, interesting discussion !
Glad you enjoyed it! Thank you for watching. :) -Tuomas
Film won’t die from less users but maybe from environmental footprint in the production. Ai will also probably be able to finally reproduce the “film look” for real.
But from an analog camera perspective I think we will se a sensor that will fit old film cameras soon.
It's not really about achieving the 'film look'. It's the tactile physical process.
@@jeremyfielding2333exactly!
On the commercial processing equipment side, I will admit to the economic, quality and environmental benefits of dry-printing (inkjet) over RA-4. But that does mean that Noritsu has little incentive to actively support the film revival. Noritsu's printing business does not require film shooting, merely photography, film or digital. Noritsu has, as of 2023, shown no interest in reviving their commercial scanner lines or film processing equipment, despite interest in this possibility shown by their non-Japan partners. Colenta might see some opportunities world wide. A tour of Colenta's facilities might be a mutually welcome proposition for a UA-cam channel interested in the future of large scale consumer film developing.
I've had a lot of fun with my film cameras. I guess it's great for kids who can afford it, unlike me. I'm all digital now.
In a way, I think the AI "revolution" is getting people to think and want more more authenticity, and film is the most authentic medium there is. As for cameras (and accompanying lenses), I find that it's getting harder to find good specimens on the used market.
Make em cheap they won't die
Good chat 🍻
In South Africa we have a company who produces C41 and sells it quite cheap. Fixer and bleach are separate, so 4 steps to dev.
Film has been pushed so far out of the mainstream it’s practically dead now. Film costs, limited access to film processing, and the scarcity of workable cameras along with a dwindling supply of parts all signal the end of the road.
I see no scarcity of workable cameras. Last Nikon F6-s and FM10-s were made in 2020.(canon eos 1v 2018) I currently shoot 44 year old Canon A1 which is going strong. 40 years from now i can buy that 2020 F6. Problem on the cost side is with color film. I have doubts about will it remain in the long run but black and white is not too expensive. Film production in general at the moment at least is on the rise. Since film is now only shot as a hobby cost is not that important.
Actually the imminent death of still photo film has been 'predicted' since the 1970s. And even earlier for motion picture film, going back to the advent of video tape in the 1950s even. It seems there is always someone that can't wait for it to die.
Might part of human nature. Happy to see that film photography looks to be doing well regardless. -Tuomas
Very interesting conversation
And what about companies like Silbersalz that uses modern high performance Apollo cinema films scanners for photography that outperform completely old machines like Frontier's Noritsu's ... ?
Can you name those companies that are making dip and dunk machines nowadays?? Thank you
I’m still looking for years a Zeiss ikonflex 6x6 maybe you guys have one
Film is unique and amazing
It definitely is. Might be the reason why many in the office only shoot film. -Tuomas
Does film photography have a future for commercial purposes? Probably not. Does film photography have a future as an art medium? Probably. Digital has gained enormous ground in the commercial visual arts, animation, graphics, photography, cinematography etc. And while we call those commercial ventures "arts", we forget that financial incentive and cost benefit analysis has driven these fields to digital as digital has lowered cost overhead. The question is, in the art for art sake, hobby, and as a medium on its own will film survive? From what we are seeing with Kodak rebuilding their film production capabilities, the sales of new film, and the sales of used film cameras with ever increasing prices as demand rises, anecdotally the evidence is strong that film will continue on. Any judgement that film is superior or inferior to digital is a vapid an argument as whether oil is better than water color. They are both distinct mediums with their own attributes.
Film photography is no more "fun" than digital photography. The problem with film photography is that it's an expensive chore. If you've tried it, you'll know. For film photography to remain viable its end product, the (film) print, HAS to be look more impressive than its digital counterpart. That's going to be tough.
film shooting is expensive. I stopped shooting recently for this reason.
As long as we use film it will not die.
My main concern is that these film companies are not r&ding enough for film. Make it cheaper, more will use it. Fix the old cameras instead of making new ones. I rather spend a thousand bucks on a lens instead of 3000 exposures. The only use case, if you want the photos to never touch the interwebs. A few days ago, I shot over 15k digital photos with maybe ~3k keepers. There's a substitute to getting the same photo and alot of people and their fomo will be a death to a stagnant economic system. Everyone forgets, that it takes resources to create physical goods. And it's just not sustainable, Costco used to develop at a fraction of the cost. I enjoy film as well, but I don't think I'll go back unless I win the lifetime lottery
Vinyl sells more than CD and has the biggest sales in 30 years.
Most of us will get fed up with the analog complications and the digital guys will finally offer presets that make the use of film nonsensical.
What I miscalculated was my own craziness. Now I am shooting 120 and 135 but the results do not justify.
After five rolls, I am ready to give up.
BUT I see old foxes make the most beautiful BW images ever. The major misunderstanding is that the skill would come easy.
The guys who have done darkroom for decades make lovely images. It does not mean that you can.
My question is: How are we going to display and share our "film" pictures?
This is a passing fad.
Nico what happened to the mustache???
I've been shooting film for the last decade or so. I tend only to shoot black and white due to the cost of colour. I've accepted It may never be a viable option. I tend to leave the colour to digital. So in that sense I think colour film may be the only loser in the film world.
I do like shooting film, but, Is there any toxic issue on the environment with film on any level?
Not any more than any other modern manufacturing (cars, cell phones, batteries, clothing, plastics etc). In fact I'd guess film manufacturing is so niche now it's hardly a blip on the radar, even if it were toxic. But Kodak was actually at the forefront of innovation in cleaning up the process, in terms of raw ingredients, waste and chemistry disposal. They did most of this back in the 80s and 90s thankfully, and the other manufacturers follow those standards. I'd personally like to see the plastic 35mm containers changed to cardboard or paper wrap. There's way too much plastic being thrown away in all aspects of our lives.
Digital also has a huge impact on environment. All the resource in terms of electronics (rare metals) and the biggest thing - power to run data centers. Just having watched that video has an impact. On top of that we tend to replace our digital hardware every couple of years. It becomes obsolete so quick. Not even talking about Li-Ion battery waste. A good film camera when maintained can be 70 years old and still in use. As a matter of fact we tend to value the older equipment even more sometimes since it has also collectable value.
Must be some. As with all manufacturing I guess. The scale of using, manufacturing and recycling it is just so small compared to...well for example food waste or electric cars, clothing and even farming in some scenarios. As a disclaimer, I am not an expert. :D -Tuomas
@@Kamerastore thanks and good conversation
@@stennadi My Contax RTS is proof of this.
whats the point of havng film if nobody can afford to buy it
it is a dead cat bounce heading to zombie mode
I have done photography with film from 1970 to 2006, both as a professional and as a hobby photographer, I do NOT miss film and I hope that film will fade away, so all the chemicals involved also can fade away !!!
Others will hope your digital files will fade away and be lost. I do not miss digital and the very high cost of the cameras and lenses and their short lifetimes and resulting environmental pollution relarive to mechanical second hand film cameras.
Both have advantages and disadvantages.
Aside all processing and cost topics discussed so often:
Analog needs/waste chemistry incl. rare silver, but can be made/seen/used/stored without any computer involvement
Digital on other hand allow 1:1 copies for backup/archive/distribution
@@FrankTitzeArt don't forget high capital cost of modern digital cameras and leneses and relatively short lifetimes, leading to high waste and pollution relative to mechanical film cameras. Furthermore digital storage media itself is environmentally polluting to make and dispose of when no longer useful. The short life cycle for modern digital cameras means the depreciation is high and waste is high. There is no such thing as a "free" digital photo, it has a cost both variable and fixed as well as environmentally.
@jamesprivet: Digital camera cost: Yes and No.
My background point of view: I am doing analog (primary) non-commerical photography since mid 80s. I did just digital 2012-2022. Since 2022 I do both: digital and analog . My cameras/lenses overall are in average ~40 yr old (1926 - 2014). - Aside of my phone being being ~6yr old. So I am for sure not a "latest gear addicted". ;-)
I would call it / focus on "total lifespan/usage consumption" in terms of cost/resources&waste/energy/... broken down
- per raw picture made (raw == not printed) in real or
- could be made until EOL of camera/lens.
From this/these point of view(s) getting a clear answer is not such easy. BTW: ignoring any kind of real/perceived quality differences between analog and digital for now.
Further more, and despite I benefited myself a lot from the still low prices of today's used (esp. medium/large) format cameras/lenses, we should not forget the "real" prices of such in case they would be made new today.
Digging into some historic prices of my stuff, I realized that many new analog gear prices are very stable over decades. This applies when taking inflation into account. A very good example is my 1954 Linhof Technika III. Looking on/for prices, I realized that from the 1920s (!) to 2023 the new Technika prices stayed ~ same. Current (2023) Master Technika classic is 7.260 EUR (w/o lens).
Same calc works also well with many other brands/gear as long prices lists were available (up to ~ 2005/10) and can be (in my mind) safely extrapolated till today.
Or in sum: Just computation (all digital) became cheaper over the years. all mechanical/analog not really if same standards are taken.
Sure: Today we see progress in lens design and manufactoring overall, but for most use cases they are not such relevant.
Save you the time: no.