Theist Spars w/ Atheists on Burden of Proof, Depression & Evolution | Forrest Valkai + Seth Andrews
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Full Episode: ua-cam.com/users/li...
Seth Andrews and Forrest Valkai host a call-in show focused on atheism, science, and skepticism. Several callers participate, leading to discussions on a range of topics.
One caller asks about the burden of proof when it comes to atheism vs theism. Seth and Forrest explain why extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, using examples like the teapot orbiting the sun.
Another caller asks for advice on dealing with depression as a nonbeliever. Seth shares his perspective on finding meaning and purpose without religion. They also recommend seeking professional mental health support.
Other topics include different forms of Christianity, maintaining optimism as a teacher, whether atheism causes depression, and how one might go about falsifying evolution. The hosts and callers have thought-provoking exchanges, with moments of lightheartedness mixed in.
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I am proud of him, openly admitting that he is scared of his world crumbling down.... he dare to say what millions are scared to do
100% when I was a theist it would flash in my brain “if god doesn’t exist I can’t support an afterlife claim or a forgiveness claim” but of course the threat of hell was too “real” to me then and I was scared to admit because of blasphemy and of course the number one theistic necessity; EGO!! Wayyyy too many have their ego tied to their worldview and it makes conversation impossible.
Dude that’s exactly how it felt when I left the faith. It felt like everything I ever knew about the world was a lie. Through Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris I learned about secular humanism and realized that’s exactly how I’ve always looked at the world and that it was okay that all the shit I believed in was false because that wasn’t who I really was anyway
I'm pretty sure the only reason I was able to break it was because I was young enough to still have that angsty fuck authority mindset. If I had waited until I was an adult and cared more about family it would've been wayyy harder.
Dumb is dumb period
@@RoyalTurd it's all decievement. you have allowed the devil to let you leave the faith, but remember. god is calling for you
As a fellow Indian American, I get Vihaan's fear of disconnecting from his culture and his people if he leaves Hinduism. My parents are Hindu and my mom is basically an atheist as well. There's a broad spectrum of different ideas within Hinduism and some of those are naturalist perspectives. If he sees this comment, I hope he finds his place. He's doing his best and he's going to keep doing better every day.
India is a place that has very good culture. Please never allow atheism to be absorbed into it. I have met good people from there.
I am an atheist, living in India, married to a super religious Hindu man. I don't feel disconnected. Maybe because I am in India and there's so much more than religion to connect with people.
@@Yaoigirlforever That's a major difference. When I was in school there were only 2 or 3 other Indian people in my grade, and in college there were more but still few who had a shared culture with me. India is such a diaspora that meeting another Indian American doesn't really say anything about shared culture.
Tbh although my wife was raised a Jehovah's Witness and we're both atheists now, we both find Hinduism much more interesting and fulfilling than any of the Abrahamic faiths. There's an extremely deep well of interesting stories that can be read and enjoyed as mythologies without having to take any of it as literal history in any way. Some people might even call us Hindus given our interest, though we don't self apply that label since it's a non-standard usage of the label.
You're an air head.
@@mikerodgers7620
*DOPEY* theists, and their kiddie fiddling gods!
Why is it so hard for people to understand that if you have a claim you need to support it? Especially when they actually watch the show!
Because religious people very nu h generally can't be honest.
Look at how they "counter" atheism.
Ask for exact ans complete scientific evidence of every single step in evolution for example.
Or how the universe or life began. They expect that science knows everything right now.
And then they quote the Bible which is basically "God did it" and they accept that.
Religious people are almost exclusively aggressively gullible and hypocrites.
Because, in part, in the USA there is no state that has logic and rhetoric in their mandates curriculum. The education system here K-12 is entirely about memorizing correct answers. No nuance for those answers growing or changing, or anything.
@@iamnotgroot3693sadly, too true. I went to a pretty good public school system, but critical thinking wasn't touched until college.
@@iamnotgroot3693
Why only USA? Most of the world is religious
@@bengsynthmusic Most callers are from the US
Vihaan. From one Indian to another, it may interest you to learn about the Indian school of philosophy called "Charvak" or "Charvaka". It's a school of Indian atheism that predates modern Hinduism.
As unorthodox as it is, I would feel my family out first in his shoes. But in the brief scan I've done over it, it's a wonderful set of philosophies(particularly the epistemolgies) that, with time and thought, could be a bridge to a more religious family. I'm mentioning this in my other post, in the slim hopes he might find it.
Gentlemen, I am very impressed with what I just saw. Forrest, this is the first I’ve seen of you. Seth, I’ve listened to several of your podcasts, but never seen you interact with an individual.
MOST call-in shows (religious and political) lambast callers who are struggling with the topical concept of the show. You guys embraced the caller and were very kind.
I almost didn’t watch the video because of the title, but I was intrigued. However, I fully expected a Bob Larson’esque beat down of the caller. I am happy you didn’t do that. I am also glad I watched this video.
Much respect!
Good Ole Bob Larson! I rarely see that name come up nowadays. You have to admit, he was pretty entertaining! 😆
I started buying his books in the late 90. The first book I bought of his was "Satan - The Seduction Of America's Youth.
When he started claiming demons were shape-shifting into his own image to cause fraud and other legal issues, INCLUDING his studio problems at that time; is when I started checking out.
Good Ole Bob!
Even though I am far removed from his line of thinking, it would perhaps still be cool to meet the guy. l😁lol
You nailed it. I'm not harmony obsessed, but the battle-type debates cater far too much to testosterone overproduction, and far too little to the understanding of people who are struggling.
MOST theists lie, tap dance and avoid any questions ! Now when a theist is honest there will be no need to be annoyed
really digging this guy's honesty. major respect
Community, tribalism, and extended families are all important, perhaps even NECESSARY for a healthy life... but so is HONESTY.
At an AA meeting some while back, I "outed" myself as an atheist and agnostic to a chorus of gasps and outrage; I offered that it was OUR JOB to help ourselves and each other.
After the meeting, a few people condemned me openly; but one gentleman quietly told me that a LOT of people there felt just as I did, but they just didn't TALK about it.
SOMEBODY has to have the spine to say that "the Emperor has no clothes," and more people may eventually thank you and follow your honest example than condemn you! 🙏
Seth and Forrest collab 👏👏👏
Honestly they’re so good. Zero ego and just pure education.
Sometimes I believe in a soul. Only because sometimes it looks like Seth is looking right through it
Seth is a blind heathen. And he needs a prayer for his soul like you do.
😂😂😂
Hey heathen change your ways. @@TheTruthKiwi
@@mikerodgers7620
*DOPEY* theists, and their kiddie fiddling gods!
Seth, you are the best of the best. Thank you so much. Your compassion is moving. TBH the work you have done and your videos are the best replacements for sermons many people getting out of religion can get.
This is the dream team of atheist society.
You're dream will be a nightmare sooner than you think. Atheism is not the bed you want to sleep in.
@mikerodgers7620 Keep dreaming about your supernatural diety. Hope it helps you sleep at night.
amen@@mikerodgers7620
mikerodgers7620 Prove it
why do atheists always want another way to believe in CHRIST when there's only one way to believe in CHRIST which is having faith in him@@brettrogers4200
I live in a religious 3rd world African country and I'm afraid that I might be fired if I come out as an atheist. I'm sure there might be others like me here, but how do I find them? I have recently deconverted and I have never felt happier. I do want to live authentically.
Would it be dangerous for you to come out as an atheist there? If so, you might want to find your community online.
Good luck! Sorry I can't help.
that happiness will soon turn into a nightmare without the LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST involved in your life. trust in the lord and believe in him with all your might and he will grant you salvation
@mariobrosgoat6007 well, it appears that he's happy because he GAVE UP that bs you're spouting.
you reap what you sow, naysayer, but JESUS grants eternal life through faith and salvation. the problem with atheists is that they want instant gratification and when they don't have their trials and tribulations fixed by god in a instant, they give up and leave god. that is not how we are supposed to treat the LORD at all.@@thenaturalmidsouth9536
@@smashbrosgoat
*Evidence?* Claims are easy. That's why _every_ religion makes claims. So how can I take your claims seriously? Do you have _anything_ distinguishable from wishful-thinking backing them up?
About Evolution. I often say to creationists. "You want me to read the bible, what have you read? Have you read the origin of the species? If you read the origin of the species you see that evolution is not only possible but inevitable."
Do you have the slightest idea of how complex DNAis and that 8 billion people on earth and all have different DNA. But it's so well defined that they can tell who your parents are that cannot happen by evolution it would be impossible DNA is just one example of how God has created man and the truth goes on there is more evidence that GOD exists and he created this world.
@@buck4472 Please explain why would it be impossible?
@@buck4472 This is why people have trouble with religious folk, They throw out what they believe to be fact but when asked to back it up (my other comment to you), nada, nothing, crickets. However if you do wish to look up "paternity testing" on Wikipedia. You will see its a simple process. So have your read "Origin of the species"?
@@buck4472So, everyone has different dna therefore god? That is a classic argument from ignorance and incredulity.
You do realise that the complexity of life has naturally evolved over hundreds of millions of years right? Species that inbreed usually don't do so well and eventually go extinct. There are exceptions that have evolved of course but generally inbreeding doesn't work too well. Hence diversity.
@@buck4472
You *LYING* religiots are truly pathetic!
So happy to hear about Rhett! That’s funny because I did children’s ministry when I was Christian and we used the “What’s in the Bible” series and color me surprised when Rhett and Link showed up singing Bible songs in that series. 😂 It was very cute, horrible for all the obvious reasons, but very cute.
Thank god for that! Oh, bum, wrong site 😂😂😂
Great conversation! Another issue with his initial statement is that, if belief is the default position, then we would be required to believe in every conceivable god until they are disproved. And because god claims are often unfalsifiable there would be no escape from holding a large number of contradictory beliefs.
I completely agree that community is important for everyone and that the atheist community needs to do a better job with community. I have recently started an atheist meetup group and I am trying to build a community of free thinkers in my area.
Agreed. Other than these online venues we have very little community. I went to an atheist meet up once in my area. Wasn't what I expected. Just ended up being a few dudes talking about work.
Yay, two presenters debating in a quiet tone. Calm discussion is far more persuasive than shouting down brainwashed theists.
Actually atheists are the brainwashed ones. Theists deal with the soul and aren't materialists. Looking and seeking to clone yourself in worldly things isn't the way. Jesus is the way faithless one.
Unfortunately more Gawd Bros want to lock horns with the shouty bald guy. It's also far more entertaining.
Which can be entertaining also😂
Bc matt is not on this episode thank "god"
Tough love is sometimes necessary for the arrogant and pig headed superstitionists but calm, thoughtful discourse is definitely more beneficial for callers that are rational and reasonable like this one.
Seth should be narrating audiobooks
When I lost my faith I lost the community I grew up in. I went to a parochial school from first grade through high school, and I haven't attended a high school reunion in over twenty years, because I no longer fit in.
Yes, I now have other communities that I'm a member of - we even have pot lucks. But the loss of the community of my youth is very real and continues to pain me, even though it happened decades ago. If I could have found any way to remain in that community without lying about my most important beliefs, I would have grabbed it.
Vihaan's decision not to look too closely at the religious beliefs he grew up with, for fear that he might have to reject them, makes perfectly good sense to me. He's protecting himself and his relationships, and he's doing it without attacking others. More power to him.
Just wanted to say that I'm incredibly impressed by Seth in this one.
Yeah, I guess I can see the loss of community being a big issue. I never had a religious community in my life, so it was never something that factored into my atheism. I'm in a lonely place now, and I can see that if I had a religion, I could easily turn to it. I just can't believe anything other than I do though.
I lost all my friends and social structures. But my husband and family are still with me.
_But my husband and family are still with me._
Good! I'm glad to hear that. I'm sorry you lost your friends,... but they don't sound like they were worth very much, anyway. And I'm sure you've made new friends.
im so sorry you lost your friends but im glad you are doing well. ask the lord guidance and he will surely provide it to you
it's not nonsense, it's the truth@@user-xs3fr6qd1q
@@smashbrosgoat What evidence do you have that your lord exists or will provide guidance?
no man shall see god, for we are all sinners. to believe is to have faith not by sight@@ga6589
I feel sorry for this guy, and I can see where he is coming from. Loss of community was a very prominent thing in my deconversion.
Then you were in a cult and your so called friends were not
@@gowdsake7103 Definitely a cult, and you are right, I quickly found out my friends were only my friends because the church frowned upon friends outside of church context. So yes, when I left the church, alas, no more friends. Excommunicated.....
What Seth describes is exactly the reason I enjoy my local Humanist community. I have no religious faith and no religious community, but I still have a human need to belong, and socialise, and talk about interesting things, and meet interesting people, and share experiences. But we non-religious people are still terrible at all this community stuff, and need to do better.
Because being an atheist is not a basis for community, here it is not even relevant. Join a club in a hobby you enjoy
This is my favorite host combo.
I totally agree with you forest. You can absolutely part Ip and attend in religious family functions. I am not religious and for the most part neither is my family, but they would lean towards the Christian side. My sister is married to a Jewish man so now we partake in the Jewish holidays as well and I enjoy them more than the Christian holidays.
Seth is so spot on with community and culture. It’s programs like this that will help people think about their beliefs and what is true. We need to educate the religious that atheism is not the negative it is made out to be.
Absolutely! You can move to a new town and join a new church to meet people if you're religious. There really isn't a secular equivalent to that yet, except maybe in larger cities where it's easier to find a group to join just based on a hobby or interest.
There used to be social clubs based around ethnic group, but they are largely dying out since it's no longer necessary to stay so segregated. Of the ones that are still around, the members are mostly old people.
I hope someday even the smaller towns can have an atheist alliance group, or an adult LGBTQ alliance group, or a wiccan alliance group, or any number of others, without those groups being targeted for bigotry and harassment.
Seth's demeanor is as beautiful and warm as his voice.
Great video with excellent discussion on all sides. Honestly it feels a little odd that the title refers to it as "sparring" - seems a lot more to me like this caller just wants to know how these things are supposed to work.
Seth’s approach that you don’t accept an hypothesis from the get go, is surely correct. Forrest OTH was somewhat confusing here. We don’t assume there is a teapot on Jupiter, prior to having evidence.
Personal experience has taught me that in your life, there are relatives and there is family. Relatives have your DNA and family are those who treat you like family with love, respect, tolerance, understanding and forgiveness. Oftentimes a person in your life can be both your relative and your family, but sometimes not. I gave up my relationship with my only son because he treated me without the love, respect ,etc. that I deserve from my child, even if I am a bad person and failed him as a father, which I certainly am not and did not do...ever! Buth the Universe has favored me with a family who gift me with all those family attributes, sort of a "spiritual family," and I could not be happier or feel more loved, respected and appreciated...in spite of my many faults as a human being. Once you come to appreciate that difference in relationships, you have been liberated to surround yourself with real love and stop being a slave to the negativity that people who should love you but don't and who simply carry your DNA inject into your life and rob you of true happiness.
I was moved by Seth's story! I am now 74 and live with a prpblem almost every waking hour. My father was a priest my brother is a prirst my sister is an evangelical christian and my son (I love him dearly) "SPEAKS WITH JESUS!" every night! I am athiest but am not "out of the closet" . How to get out without causing tthem hurt!
I used to ask my mother why we had to go to church. (This was 60 years ago.) She always just said, "Because that's what decent people do."
I never once heard my parents talk about "God" or "Jesus," but going to church - _any_ Christian church - was just the way things were. I don't remember ever believing it. I'm not even sure if my folks did, but I know they _wanted_ to. (They went to church together after they retired. Admittedly, that was probably because all their friends did.)
She was right. Too bad for you.
@@mikerodgers7620 Most Trump cultists go to church, and there is nothing decent about Trump or his cult. To say nothing of all the church-goers in the past who either did terrible things or supported the people doing terrible things.
@@mikerodgers7620
You haven't met many Christians, apparently. Or many atheists?
But please tell me, how about *one piece of good evidence,* specific enough and in enough detail that I can judge if for myself, that your god is real, rather than just imaginary? Just *one,* please.
Evidence is how we distinguish reality from delusion and wishful-thinking? So, do you have *anything* distinguishable from wishful-thinking backing up your religious beliefs? Why is *one* specific example too much to ask?
I have. And I know for a fact evil spirits and the spiritual world exist. You not seeing or acknowledging it doesn't make much of a difference heathen.@@Bill_Garthright
@@Bill_GarthrightI wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an answer Bill and if it does come I'm sure it'll be pathetic.
Regarding your post I'm assuming you're American and from the outside looking in (I'm in New Zealand btw) it a shame that christianity has been so ingrained in the American culture and is seen as "what decent people do". From what I've seen from popular culture and my own experience, that pretty much died out here in the 70's and 80's. There are still quite a few christians of course but religiosity doesn't seem to define people like it does in America.
Americans also seem to love labelling people like right or left, republican or democrat, bible believer or heathen.
We don't place neatly as much emphasis on lablels here which is obviously a good thing.
Btw, If your not American I apologise for the assumption 😂
Love Seth and Forrest together!!
The idea of God is not a hypothesis. A hypothesis has to be testable.
Not necessarily. Even some generally accepted scientific theories aren't testable, like the big bang for instance, but there a least has to be some good evidence of it occurring/existing.
The abrahamic god of the bible is merely an assertion as there is no actual evidence of its existence.
@@TheTruthKiwithe big bang cosmological theory can be used to make predictions. These predictions are then examined, and proven to be true. You can't get any more scientific than that.
These two host are amazing
He's put the cart before the horse. We don't accept a hypothesis UNTIL we fail to reject it. We can't test it, to reject or not, if it's unfalsifiable. So, can't accept it.
It caused me great confusion when I found that so many people at church did not really believe,
Two honest lovely human beings ❤
WOW
I think it's the first video i see where Seth has really the place to let him shine.
The guy was amazing, so sweet, so empathic, so comforting but still giving good advises.
Kind of the anti Matt "shut the fuck up" Dillahunty.
Vihaan's statement is an argument from ignorance fallacy. This fallacy occurs when you argue that your conclusion must be true, because there is no evidence against it. This fallacy wrongly shifts the burden of proof away from the one making the claim. You can't pursue truth without logic, reason and critical thinking.
Furthermore. If he says god is a hypothesis then he has to reject virtually all of the Bible as for example you can't both have god established to have spoken to people and then go "hmm maybe there is a god" if you're not sure God exist then you wouldn't be able to say it's God as its done in the Bible.
@@kriss3d You're right. The conclusion must follow the hypothesis. Not the other way around.
@@kriss3d
Dude’s a Hindu so no Bible for him.
Among the questions I ask religious people......if you buy a plastic Jesus for your dashboard to protect you, why have it facing you instead of the road? If you get into an accident, can you get you money back because the statue is obviously broken because it didn't stop the accident? To believers.....you say God is real & people should talk to him. But if anyone claims god answered them, they are locked away? (Not as often, lately)
I am digging what Seth is putting down.
M says :
I have no boundaries!
😊
I think both you guys are great . I'd love to go for a beer with you but i live in the UK. Maybe another time .!!
Seth is awesome.
So glad I live in Britain where no-one gives a shit if you believe or not.
In fact it's slightly the other way. People tend to keep their religion to themselves usually.
I live in the UK too, North Yorkshire to be precise, I honestly can't remember the last time I heard jesus or God in a conversation between people out and about, at a pub etc. I don't know any religious people personally, I've met 3 Christians in the last 10 years I think. If anyone I know does believe in a God they have done an incredible job of keeping it private! I have found people have said they are a Christian due to being baptised yet are not a practising Christian, go to church, own a bible etc. Any God talk is pretty much none existent on TV, what songs of praise once a week for an hour? It certainly wouldn't do any celebrity or politician to discuss any God belief on TV or in the media, our tabloids, news outlets would hound them about it I reckon.
I'm on vacation with my family right now. I moved out two years ago and stopped being catholic. They're all still catholic, but they want me to join them going to church and saying prayers on this vacation. I oblige just to keep from rocking the boat, but I don't like it. I want my family to start deconstructing, but I don't know how far I can push it before they reject anything I say ever. How can I introduce them to resources and information without overstepping or provoking them?
There's no easy advice. This is a highly contextual situation. That said, I'd start by discussing my lack of belief with them. Don't try to get them to agree, just understand. Only show them resources when they express interest.
I love Seth. Just a sharp empathetic mind.
A hypothesis is based on an observation or limited evidence. Every random statement such as “I believe pink unicorns exist.” is not a hypothesis. Same goes for a god.
Take A Moment
Sorry for my earlier comment.
I am with this you man. I wish you the best 👌
One time in Jerusalem I thought I’d try praying like the locals. Man, it was like talking to a wall!
Even a hypothesis needs to agree with some aspects of what is being proposed otherwise it doesn't qualify beyond pulling out of your backside.
I'm afraid the mere lack of religious belief is not enough to connect people the same way religion does. Atheism is not a worldview, and most people aren't interested in dedicating themselves to it. There's never gonna be any churches in it's name, and it won't make people come together every week. Instead people have to find something that does. But this can probably never be as universal as religion once was and still is in many places. I live in Europe and in most old towns the church is placed somewhere in the center, and it's the tallest buidling there. It literally brought the entire community together and this was reflected in the very design of our built environment. This strong sense of community something we lost, it's lonely out here for many of us. I almost never talk to my neighbors, I hardly ever see them.
Atheism def is not a worldview or something that is trying to get people rallied around it. I think people will always find things to gather around and right now, with social media and smartphones, people aren't. It's not atheism's fault & maybe it'll take a while for people to get away from their screens but I think it'll happen. I've been trying to find friends, looking for a band to play in, even organizing family get-togethers but it's just not easy these days. It's kind of sad but even religious people aren't congregating in the numbers that they used to.
Vihaan sounds like a great guy. I would love for him to consider the amount of harm that religious thinking and belief does to humanity. Facing reality is so important. We make our most important decisions based on this stuff. 😔
Why is it so hard for theists to understand that you shouldnt accept any claim at all without credible, testable evidence?
Most were taught to not question.
Thanks!
Yes, community is vital, humans need other humans. What we don’t need is an imaginary god (or an oppressive religion) making decisions on how we live our lives.
Honest question is Forrest no longer part of the line? Seems like he’s not on shows lately including skeptalk
@user-xs3fr6qd1q oh yay! Glad to hear that
The mistake is to not understand what the alternatives to the Religious infrastructure is/ are. And that they already exist. It just requires a major mind shift. What are the alternatives, where do you go if not to Church?
Bars? A major social infrastructure with many different social types to choose from. But no not for everyone.
Libraries. Book clubs. They close them on Sunday mornings so they are not an alternative! Child care? No problem! Social discussions? meetings with similar and or different minded? Imagine what local libraries could do if the got the taxes Churches strip from a local community!
Parks. Sports fields. Again. with the money available just if churches paid taxes! These alternatives would be very attractive. They are kept from being so on purpose.
Joining local interest specific clubs. Car gear heads. Knitting circles... All could be arranged with the money then available. They all have to be considered the alternative as a group compared to a singular narrow focus demanded by religion.
Seth is right. You don't begin an experiment by assuming your hypothesis is true. That would lead to confirmation bias. you would want to be as obective and neutral as possible. Accepting your hypothesis before you begin has you leading the evidence , not following it.
Seth's velvet voice could probably convince me anything is true.
This is very prevalent in some countries especially the USA where family and/or friends would turn their back on someone because of lack of religion or faith. Why does it matter so much to some? I'm from the UK and feel it is less important or pertinent i guess.
I believe Spider-Man is real until proven wrong.
I have some beachfront property in Malibu to sel Vihaan, its only $10,000, with a mansion already built. Start making payments untill you can prove it's a scam. Or even better "give me all your money and gawd will pay you back tenfold".
CHECK THIS GUY ! I WAS THERE 20 YEARS AGO!!!
"Spar" is a very strong word to describe the interaction between the caller and the hosts, to the point where I feel it's a mischaracterization. I know it's important to get views to these videos, but I don't like mischaracterizing interactions. First, it's disrespectful to participants. Second, it reflects poorly on the channel. Off the top of my head, I believe a better title would be "Is it justifiable to believe in something until proven wrong?"
Why do you think spar is a very strong word to describe the interaction? It is very fitting word for this interaction because in sparring people of different strenghts test their skills and learn from each other just like in this interaction.
Unfortunately, this particular show exchange just accidentally lent credence to certain supernatural claims of various religions, especially insofar as seemingly spontaneous and immaculate conceptions are concerned. Because Seth's voice is so damn smooth that I imagine it damn near impregnates anyone who hears it.
As a physicist, hypotheses are only useful if there are ways to test the. God seems to have whatever properties are useful at any time, so ad hoc explanations can be made for the result of any experiment. So you need to have tests that can definitively disprove the hypothesis depending on the outcome of the experiment Lacking this, it is not clear why the God hypothesis is any more interesting than an infinite number of other undecidable propositions. Yet large numbers of people don't support them. I don't think truth or falsehood have much to do with the God idea.
I gotta ask if God made the universe and knew the results of everything threw time why was it done
That is so she can punish us for doing EXACTLY what she already knew we would do ;) .
I suspect the clock spun so fast that it threw the hands off it.
Vihaan in Finnish means "I hate" - that made me laught a little lol
I had a Pastor Haight growing up😂.
He was really nice - but - what an unfortunate sounding name in an English dominate community.
@@cipherklosenuf9242
There was a Cardinal Sin in Singapore I think.
Don't hypothisis have to be falsifiable?
Seth has a great voice and he offer such good council.
I work with many 'Hindus'....they also like the cultural aspect of their religion but are not religious. Maybe in Australia we are more liberal.
How many people does Vihaan know who think the same way but live as he does for what he thinks they think? It is well known that many theists are not believers anymore but keep saying they are for a variety of reasons. Be honest. Know your truth.
LOL at the *BUTT HURT* religiots here :) .
When he related the story of the woman saying how proud she would be of him, were he her son.... 🥹😭 Those of us who lost our bio families, man, I think we all felt that on a visceral level.
It's funny. They raise us with certain values. Honesty. Integrity. Standing for our convictions. But as soon as we do it in a way that goes against the teachings, well, never mind all that. I'm sure if his mother could stop being blinded by her faith, she would see she is proud of him. I hope he realizes that. ❤
ok, it's kinda trippy that this guy's name is "I hate" in Finnish.
Science: gather evidence, then come to a conclusion. Start with “I don’t know,” then “Let’s find out.” Anti-science (religion): Start with the conclusion, then try to find evidence to support it. Start with “I know,” then “Let’s justify it.”
Personally I’d love to go to a temple and eat and socialise with believers and non believers the same.
This seems crazy that you can be so outcast in America as a British person religion just isn’t talked about and I don’t know one person who goes to church or even believes in god other than recent immigrants
Forrest is very wrong on one thing here, we KNOW that the laws of physics only work on a medium scale. If you go really big or really small, they don't work at all and other forces come into play.
Gravity, for example, as a law or as in Einstein's theory is not correct, the laws of thermodynamics don't work when we go beyond protons, electrons and neutrons and not when we go outside the solar system either. Where gravity fails electromagnetism thrives and so while it would seem to be the same effect, it's not.
I'm fairly sure Forrest already knows this as well and he's "keeping it simple" but that's kind of like going "evolution is survival of the fittest". It's just wrong.
I must have looked in countless wardrobes, and I've never seen Roland. After looking in a thousand wardrobes, I can safely say that if P = the probability of finding Roland in a wardrobe, then P
how sad to do religion because you want friends.
The caller expresses that his religion is associated with his family and cultural identity.
This may be especially important and relevant to an immigrant or a child of immigrants.
Perhaps he has friends that aren’t Hindu …but family ties remain family.
As a vegan this argument resonates with me. So often our choices cause massive disruption in our lives. I have been ostracised from social events with family because I don’t eat their way. I don’t need to say anything just be me and it upsets them.
I believe in the existence of an ancient Hebrew god I have never seen
after I read a story about him that contains contradictions and subhuman behavior.
An excellent presentation. Thanks. I learned long ago to be true to myself even if it costs me friends and relationships. I might be liked more by others if I agreed with them, but I would NOT like myself.
"Spars" is a pretty strong word lol
For the Hindu caller: There are views under the umbrella of Advaita Vedanta that are non-theistic.
13:47 I didn't set out to validate anything, but I was raised in what I now recognize as a conservative fundamentalist environment and began to notice that anti-religious humor kept making good points. Then one day I stumbled upon a debate on UA-cam, I don't even recall the topic and it may or may not have been religious. I watched many, many religious debates thoroughly and I don't think I even have to elaborate on this part, we all know how they always go. That led me on to science communicators and atheist activists, and eventually the call-in shows. It is not possible to watch the entire AXP back library (they used to list URLs) and believe in anything supernatural in the same way Aron warns people that they can be honest, or creationist, but no longer both.
I had just commented on a previous video that these two are my favorite having no idea they teamed up recently 😍
The cancer of religion let’s hope of a cure
Within Hinduism it is possible to be atheist.
The only requirement is that the atheist position is derived from the Vedas. Typically this would be a philosophical position based on the Upanishads.
So the Vedas don’t mention or include any claims about God or gods of any kind?
@@Ben-no4lz The Vedas do include god claims and liturgical practices. However, Hinduism is not dogmatic, it requires only that your beliefs be derived from the Vedas. This means they can pick and choose which Vedas and which parts to use to formulate a version of Hinduism. The Upanishads, which form parts of the Vedas, deal with Philosophy and Consciousness.
There is a Widipedia article "Hindu atheism", if you're interested. From that article-
"Technically, in Hindu philosophy the term Āstika refers only to acceptance of authority of Vedas, not belief in the existence of God."
God is a failed hypothesis. You can't test it.
Not just a failed hypothesis… one that is absolutely not even needed.
Not a single model relies on a supernatural deity.
We once thought thunder was an angry deity, we now know exactly how thunder works… that it’s a natural process of our climate system that does not need a god
Every single time we’ve figured out how something works - every single time - we did not need to include god in that model
At times I’m glad that none of this “ritual” means anything to me, and as for community, never felt safe in a religious one and it didn’t want me either.
Then again, I live in a big city and this idea of gathering with the same people is just not part of my life. And since it never was, can’t say I long for it either.
I feel this wholeheartedly. I'm an introvert, going and being around people at church weekly was so exhausting. Community definitely isn't something I feel like I need. But there's prolly hella people out there that feel way different. For the sake of those who do need it, it would be nice to have it
Vihaan: There is no evidence for god. Prove me wrong.
I believe there is a chocolate teapot orbiting Venus. Proove me wrong!
“I may not have experienced your level of pain, but I’ve experienced enough pain to see what you’re going through.”
vihaan doesnt know that hinusiam allowed u to be aethist as well , just follow veda and u dont need to belive in any god , there is a aethist sect in hinudism called " karmyogi "
Seth NAILED it!! Forrest does a great job as well. Together, this clip...for the first time, I started to cry.. Crying isn't weakness...and I can relate to Seth's story about connecting with the 60 year old woman. I'm in the 50's, and my Mother left Christianity in her 20's as I did in my 20 after previous years to 20 I dissected the Bible. Dissected the repetitions and cruelty of the God character. But my Pious Grandmother and I grew really close..and she was totally Pious until or mind started becoming corrupt from Alzheimer's and Parkinson's...and I help my Mother for years take care of her. So I know the signs, I know the very challenging moments. I still have flashbacks of her hitting herself on her head and legs TRYING to clear herself. She also called out to the God character, as well as Yeshua...but there weren't any replies. She was a very well respected Nurse that also adored science. There were also several people that came to Pray with her, and I'd listen to them as I did my own thing close by, before she became really bad.
I find very little joy in talking to atheists in person, and especially *rarely* here, Online, because the hardcore ones who just call me stupid or dig at me because I've not gone atheist, though I have totally deconstructed my 'Christian' programming. Yet, I have had experiences that 100% keep me from flipping to atheism - I do not call them Christian experiences. To do so, I would have to completely throw away my personal experiences, which NO Atheist Online or in person has asked me about. I would have to try to lobotomize my mind and Christians have attempted to get me to do that already. They just say it mental stuff, your mind played tricks on you. That's as helpful or meaningful to me as, "You just have to Believe in Jesus."
So, I'm pretty alone most of the time. Where I live, it's 95% Christian and if I challenge them, I'll hear stuff like, "Ohhh, I haven't thought of that before." but since we don't hang together, as it's very difficult to get past the religious stuff, and correct their Christian history for Pagan history because it's so pervasive. I choose to have an extremely small base of people to talk to. I Am very much open to discussions that can go very deep...but I haven't come across anyone in about 10 years now that are willing. Except my Mother. A Cousin recently rejected Church and owns she has also had experiences but won't talk about them yet. Sigh. I don't have any fears but the Cousin does. An atheist, so-called, lives next door to me but he loves to dominate conversations and override them with his ALL KNOWING answers of rambling and then irritations of humanity. I'm am not interested in conversations that don't have back-and-forth. So, I've been considering going to a Church...just to maybe..form some new friends. I've been doing role playing by myself to figure out how to talk to them and keep "Jesus" or Holy Spit out of any conversations. We're approaching December, and I don't celebrate Yuketide anymore, and I sure am not going to celebrate "Christmas" because I'm not Christian anymore. So it'll have to be after December when the Christian machine isn't cranking out the same programming music they've been doing for...a very, very long time. I become more solitary at this time than usual. Video games, audiobooks, time with my Mother hand help her with her health stuff...as well as meditation which does work...and is fun.
I don't want to go to an atheist "community" because I'm not going to convert to atheism. Again, my experiences actually happened and I wasn't intoxicated or high in some way when I had them, and they involved other people noticing the experiences also.
I adore critical thinking as well, though I'm told by atheists I'm not using it well if I'm still accepting an impossible experience. I don't need to hear questions or statements that are merely slightly altered Christian reasoning. Not impressive to me at all, and I'll shut down the conversation.
I've been listening to Seth for a while, as well as Forrest, and I'm starting to think I've found the 'team' I'd actually call to...AND actually have a very good back-and-forth. It also sucks being single, so I can relate to the guy that called, and to why some relationships can be very hard if you're not part of the norm.
This is the first clip in some years that *got through to me* that there is hope and *some* atheists are worthy of very good chats. I've been losing that. Typically I Am Upbeat, but sadness is creeping in. I could accept a Christian woman, as long as she didn't attempt to force Jesus onto me, because, for this life, I will not return to that. Acceptance, both ways, is key. Developing community...agreed. Right on Seth and Forrest! I've replayed this clip 5 times now...out of all that I've listened to, this IS my favorite to this date.
Keeping Authentic. Yesss. I don't understand nor do I relate to the "path" statement, it's too Christian to me. But, eehh, whatever. :-)
P.S. I absolutely agree that the Genesis has been debunked ad nauseam. Glad to hear an atheist say so.
When it comes to existence the null hypothesis is "whatever you are claiming to exist doesn't exist" i.e. there is no dragon hiding in the bushes.
Consequently, to reject the null hypothesis you must demonstrate existence.