Dan, again a well reasoned argument, as we have started to expect from you, BUT, a few comments: New vehicles that go into limp mode is not going to be fixed by any road side mechanic, therefore pick your new vehicle well. And don't assume you will be able to spend years on the road with no scratches when loading on overfull ferries, Bicycles bumping against the vehicle, etc. If you have an older vehicle and prepare it properly (see Paul Marsh, who replace all rubber, bushes, bearings, etc., based on many years overlanding experience when he prepare a vehicle) may just be a worthy of consideration, especially adding a few sound deadening sheets as part of the preparation - finally, older vehicles are cheaper, so insurance and if you do require a Carnet, are more affordable, and Chris Scott have said in Overlander's handbook that the best vehicle is one that you can leave if it breaks down and just buy another cheapie - and carry on - maybe not a bad idea if vehicle is old.
As a Kenyan, we need to change our mindset when it comes to road safety. Most accidents on our roads are as a result of human error! I think budget plays a big part when it comes to new vs old. I remember I recommended Lake Oloiden campsite when you came through Kenya.
I agree! Except that I would change "as a result of human error" with "as a result of human stupidity". Overtaking in blind bends and constantly risking other people's lives knowing fully about it to gain a few minutes like it's always happening in Kenya (where I live) is actually more than stupidity, it's criminal behaviour that should lead to long jail sentences - it's unacceptable.
Possibly also with minimal prep and using lots of Shitpart components as replacements when things did break. Quality Alternators and bushes should last many years and many thousands of miles.
Dan, you've been using this same presentation format for quite a few months now, but I'm struck by how nicely you knit together themes with their examples now, and avoid the verbal wandering that seems endemic on UA-cam. No question, you've got this down well. It's a pleasure to view your videos, which is why I chose to be a 'team member'. Bravo Zulu.
Thanks Jack! I'm certainly itching to move onto a new format - first it will be documenting the whys, whats and hows of the new vehicle I'll be building, then it will be documenting the next expedition. I can't wait!
You lucked out Dan. I have a 2015 wrangler which has been very well maintained. On this 300 day trip I’ve replaced the thermostat twice, clock spring, timing chains, catalytic converter and throttlebody. 173,000 on it now.
We who buy an old 4x4 (at less who is smart) in europe, to travel around africa, did a complete restoration of the vehicle and upgrading of several components before start our expeditions. We only have a few minor failures whith easy solution. All those new cars with a lot of electronics, fails much more on mud, sand, crossing deep water courses... so the question is not if the car is new or old, but if the owner is enought aware of what’s he is doing.
You are missing the point, friend, about reliability. Instead of spending $50,000 - $100,000 on a new vehicle spend maybe $5,000 at home replacing all of the items on an old vehicle which might wear out. In my vehicle all of these items have already been replaced and I expect to return home without failures en route. When you talk about new vehicles you need to be more specific. If the electronics are confined to the essential items then that's good but when they intrude into other functions you are asking for trouble. Too many modern 4x4s and SUVs have electronics just to be sexy and to have bragging rights. The guy you quote who spent many weeks repairing his old vehicle was simply asking for trouble. Replace items like wheel bearings, hoses (and use new silicone parts), clutches, bushes, shock absorbers - the list goes on - at home. Alternators, starter motors and power steering pumps, gearboxes, differentials should all be reconditioned. I have done that and when the odd item slips under the wire I can fix it on the road. If anyone leaves home for a big trip without doing that they will have problems and it is their own fault, sorry. Safety? Yes new vehicles are better no question. Interesting video but not necessarily balanced. You skip over the cases of people whose trips were ruined because some stupid problem caused an electronic meltdown.
The Wrangler I drove from Alaska to Argentina was 8 years old and cost $5k. The Wrangler I drove around Africa was 5 years old and cost $18k. In no world am I talking about spending $50-100k !!!
Fully agree. It’s foolish to have a ten year old hose or belt on a vehicle that going to be put through the wringer. C’mon guys, have some common sense.
After reading the comments here-in, some from very experienced overlanders, I think that some balance is in order. The truth is that both sides of the argument hold water and i believe it comes down to a person's preference combined with their circumstances. The over-arching problem to be solved is reliability and this can be achieved by either buying new (newer) or preparing an older vehicle properly and fully. Either way you need to prepare and you must know your vehicle intimately. There's no right and wrong in regards to old versus new - Only differing strategies for achieving reliability Life would be pretty boring if we all drove new V8 Land Cruisers. And without Land Rovers the tow hooks on Land Cruisers would be redundant.... (ok, that was a cheap shot - It doesn't mean I don't respect the marque). But what would I do ? I would lean towards a newer vehicle manufactured in the last 20 years or something new. But I don't look down on those whom take loving care of their older pride and joy.
Why would anyone go on an extended overland journey in a old vehicle with old belts and hoses? I’m sure the 84 day trip could have been cut by two thirds if the vehicle had had updated parts.
I have 357,000km on my 2014 FJ Cruiser that I've had since new. To date I have replaced the brakes and the shocks. That's it. I used to have a '77 Cutlass. I spent $1,500/year just keeping it running. The difference between old and new isn't even a contest.
Of course I agree. But I suppose an older car may still make sense if you can buy *and prepare* it for relatively cheap. So replace everything that might need replacement before starting any long expedition. No excuse to get caught with a rusted, leaking radiator, it should probably have been replaced as a matter of precaution. Idem for all the hoses and belts, the electrical wiring, parts of the drivetrain/steering/suspension etc. Basically make sure the old car really is as good as new. Might only be affordable if you're a good DIY mechanic. I think things like vehicle safety and comfort are legitimately subject to personal choice and preference. I just like old vehicles and still feel confident enough driving without ABS or airbags, but I do understand that some people want these for reassurance.
All valid and good points. I chose a vintage rig for it's style that I love and the fact that I'm a mechanic makes it doable. I'd say the only thing you didn't hit, (and one of the big reasons so many of us choose old rides), is the expense of buying new vs old rigs.
New vehicles are not always an option on cost and buy the best buy once is a nice concept but for some people just having a vehicle they can get out with is all they can afford
If old or new, it really doesn‘t matter. The most reliable car is the one you prepared well and which you maintain well. You have to do your daily checks with any vehicle. Problems occur when you get lazy. I have driven 40‘000 km in Africa with Land Rovers and Toyotas. Both were very reliable. You just need need to look under the bonnet and under the car every day.
Trucks and busses passing on completely blind corners is certainly a “Thing”... South of Mexico City the bus FULL of people I was on was passing vehicles on completely blind corners on a highway (paved, but road at best) mostly being used by big trucks. Near straight up and straight down deep canyon walls, narrow 2 lanes, tight curves, and no guardrails. Our only option was to ignore the situation. This was early 70’s.
I use late 90s 4x4s for all my overlanders. I buy a good cheap vehicle, and strip it clean it frame up new everything 15 thousand dollars later super custom nice reliable vehicle for Overlanding. And I know it inside and out. just my way I do it. I end up with a brand new old 4x4 custom built. I even strip the inside and add soundproofing.
1:57 answer to the debate: landcruiser 76 series, brandnew Old school, I have a 2015 76 series with the old 1hz 6 inline n/a diesel, mech diesel pump, no computers, sensors, or even abs for that matter, yet I bought it brand new.
Great choice, though unfortunately there are *very* few places in the world that is possible. So for the very vast majority of people, it's unobtainium.
@@TheRoadChoseMe I don't know, a lot of those JDM imports look like mall crawlers. Sub 100,000 KM for $20K. And 80s for even less. 16K for a 60K mile 80 series with the FZ is tempting
I add this comment, speaking directly to Dan's audience. First IMHO, Dan's level-headed, non-ego based, mature, and experienced-based overlanding advice is some of the very best on UA-cam. Unlike many on UA-cam, I find myself disagreeing very little with what Dan shares with all of you. Dan doesn't feel compelled to simply support HIS way of overlanding or the equipment he's chosen for his adventures. He tells you when he's made mistakes and could have done something better. All that said, I'd add one more caveat to this particular video. Not that Dan missed this point about picking an "old" vs "new" vehicles for overlanding, it's just that Dan is too young and energetic to "think" of my additional comment. I use modern vehicles to overland and lead tours for all the reasons Dan shares, but for me, it's also because I'm OLDER. I'm not as agile, flexible, or as aerobic as I once was. So, remote, solo, and international breakdowns are a real problem for me due to my age. At the end of the day, we only have TIME. Although I love working on my vehicles when I'm comfortable at home or in camp, but on the trail, I say NO THANKS. I want to spend my time exploring, not licking my wounds because I spent an entire day on my back in the mud repairing a dysfunctional driveline. I also don't want to have to walk long distances from a broken down vehicle to a nearby village or township.
That's nice. I replaced the radiator in my 2015 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon at 45,000 miles. Jeep is aware of this issue. It turns out that radiator problems are not just unusual, they're typical. Jeep just replaces them when sued but not as a warranty. So I bought a Subaru and will not be going back.
There was a famous tv ad in the US for Fram filters with the mechanic looking at you and shaking his head, "Pay me now, or pay me later...". And it's very true. You pay for your vehicle one way or the other. The easiest problem to fix is the one you prevent. With modern vehicles, you prevent those problems by paying for it upfront in cost, insurance, expensive parts, etc. Older vehicle problems are prevented but cost you in rebuilds, time, maintenance, etc but cost less in insurance and carnets. I can't afford a brand new Toyota Land Cruiser or Troopy. To me, the best overland vehicle (or any vehicle for that matter) is a mechanically simpler older vehicle that has been rebuilt or extremely well maintained. I don't mind going slower. Older, less sophisticated vehicles also teach you a lot about 'mechanical sympathy'; the art of driving within the limits of the vehicle. Again, fixing a problem by preventing it.
Thank you for doing this, it's a topic discussed over and over again, everywhere! I keep hearing how easy it is to fix a carburetor and you can't fix an injector, but personally I've never had the need to fix an injector and the list could go on! Also safety is usually a very overlooked or even ignored topic - up until you reach a country where people drive like crazy. Like REAL crazy, not like "western crazy"
I'm building a 2009 Porsche Cayenne diesel into an overlanding vehicle. I think it's perfect. Modern enough to be reliable, cheap enough to modify and do what I want with it. And also has the cool factor of being a Porsche.
@@sjoerd_maasland581 I will be sharing updates once I start the build on: facebook.com/groups/484150522226556 It's a FB group dedicated to offroading VAG/Porsche vehicles. Lots of others are doing it. Other than this not really, I like my privacy.
@@bindingcurve I plan on taking it to south America, I should be good. Diesel has its advantages, lower costs overall and also much cheaper to tax in my country than the V8s.
You nailed it... 100%. I spend most of my time overlanding in a 70 year-old Jeep and sometimes bask in the luxury of a 50 year-old Wagoneer. For me, the old vehicles are part of the adventure. Yes, my Willys will still be crawling around with the cockroaches after the apocalypse. Will it make it the next 1000 miles without a problem? Probably not. When I can't risk a breakdown or the family is coming along, we find ourselves in a 2015 pickup because they just work better in almost every way.
"First-Year Gen2 US80 series" here lol ('93). Chose it for its 3-diff-lock capability. And relative to anything newer, its refined lack of software technology needed to operate them. And OBD1. In remote places, ODB1 is what you want for peace for mind. And the confidence to go farther, higher, longer. lol
After reading the comments here-in, some from very experienced overlanders, I think that some balance is in order. The truth is that both sides of the argument hold water and i believe it comes down to a person's preference combined with their circumstances. The over-arching problem to be solved is reliability and this can be achieved by either buying new (newer) or preparing an older vehicle properly. Either way you need to prepare and you must know your vehicle intimately. There's no right and wrong in regards to old versus new - Only differing strategies for achieving reliability Life would be pretty boring if we all drove new V8 Land Cruisers. And without Land Rovers the tow hooks on Land Cruisers would be redundant.... (ok, that was a cheap shot - It doesn't mean I don't respect the marque). But what would I do ? I would lean towards a newer vehicle manufactured in the last 20 years or something new. But I don't look down on those whom take loving care of their older pride and joy.
You are absolutely right that both sides should be considered and there's no "one size fits all approach". I just wanted to shed light on the idea that old vehicles are ALWAYS better.
@@TheRoadChoseMe Yes, i agree. I believe that you were trying to describe the attitude of some folk whom believe that older is always better. These are the same people who think that having a crash in an older car is safer because they are tougher. The truth is that modern cars are both safer and more reliable.
I have a 89 XJ limited. I'm pretty sure a good ol xj could make the journey. The comment about cars from the 80s and 90s not passing 150k miles on stock engine and gear box was confusing.
I think one thing your're missing here, is the simple fact, that there aren't any newer vehicles available with the room and ruggedness, at least not here in Germany/Europe. The only modern 4wd you can get and afford, are basically Pickups (Ford Ranger, Hilux), Defenders and Jeeps. This is 'cause of legislation, CO2 fleet consumption and emissions. And its been like that for more than 10 years. If, like me, you need something with room for 2 plus child, you're stuck with old, or Defender (not an option because of discomfort). Mine is a 1993 W463 G-Class Diesel with more than 300tkm (also because I just love it).
Everyone's version of adventure is different. For years I've tried to justify buying an older vehicle for a Pan American trip, with my dream vehicle being a 1955-59 panel van. I used to bring up all the same points you brought up about the ability to fix the vehicle or get parts. After many years I've finally gotten to the point where I'll readily admit that I'm not doing it because it's the smartest choice, I'm doing it because I like the adventure of it. I like the idea of giving something old a second life full of amazing people and places, and building it up myself so I know it inside and out. I'm under no impression that my trip will be free of mechanical problems or anything, but I look at every possible problem as another opportunity to create a cool story that I will remember for the rest of my life and be able to tell people for years to come. I will always choose the older vehicle because that's just who I am, and I will always tell others that it's probably not the right choice for them. No choice is wrong if it's made with open eyes. Just see if I don't have laughter in my eyes when I tell the stories after the trip is done though!
Dan. Good video. But coment a little bit about the money aspect of this theme. It is very important for the most part of overlanders. In Brazil, where I live, a vehicle, in general, costs in US dollar much more than the same model costs in US or Canada, because of too much taxes. A new brand Jeep Rubicon like yours is for sale above 100k, for exemple. I guess it costs much less where you live. A good balance between price and quality (cost and benefit relation) is hard to find, such it is between new and old car models.
Dan, this is the best advice video I have seen you make. I am the guy who questioned you in your last video about being a bit more specific in a good vehicle to take. You took me to task and it was probably deserved. This video is the kind of info to provide: what you have seen and what your experiences have taught you. We had a 2016 Camry and a 2003 MR2: both card COULD have made it around Africa, but the MR2 has 4 cubic feet of storage space and is 4" off the ground. The Camry was new to us. So we had to buy something. This video would have helped and confirmed our choice of vehicle (an old unmodifed 2005 GX470. Nicely scratched up, beaten, comfortable and runs like a top). Keep making the videos. We eagerly await each one.
GX470 is a awesome choice. Don't be like the guy with the 2009 Landcruiser and not have all your suspension soft points gone over. Cooling, tie-rods, alternator, and brakes as well. And for the love of god, don't have the local Lexus dealership go over the truck before your trip.
Ford said ..." which is the best car? A new car" 😀😀😀 ... hands down...land rovers are famous for reliability...just check grizzly and bear overland... in almost every episode they have to fix something..but i admire their love for the land rovers and work they do....
I’ve spent more time than I probably should have pondering the tradeoffs between new and old. This is the best treatment of the subject I’ve seen. Informed, objective, and logical- awesome job on this content!
Fair comparison and I agree. The one caution I have is using anything Land Rover or Range Rover when talking about reliability. If I were to travel in any of those I KNOW being broke down a lot will be part of the experience. Whereas my 29 year old Toyota is the most reliable thing I've ever owned, and that includes newer Jeeps and Fords. I did change out the radiator, hoses, belts, etc simply because they are things that go with age. That's the deeper maintenance mindset that goes along with owning and traveling remotely in an older vehicle. So ya, I think the biggest thing for me is repairability on the road, knowledge of my vehicle and common wear and failure points with it, and doing the deeper maintenance. With a Toyota, that tends to work. Land Rover, well, you never know! :D
We have 1 Discovery 1, one LR3 and a Range Rover HSE. All have approx 250,000 km each. Brakes, 1 cv axle and a crank sensor, plus cooling system preventative maintenance is all they have had done. After driving Land Rover, and how comfortable and capable they are, I wouldn't own anything else.
makes you wonder why someone would undertake such a long and difficult trip without going through the vehicle at home and check it for parts that would need replacement. Seals, rubber tie rod ends, clutches, etc.... these are easy to check.
You need in some countries to have an older Diesel engine that can handle dirty fuel. Some modern sensor-laden engines simply can’t cope. Obviously it depends where you are going.
Not completely correct. Check out tuckstruck.net They have taken a Iveco Daily with a Euro5 motor over 200,000km through Africa and the Americas without a fuel issue
I've seen their stuff a few times and I'm happy it worked for them, but the manufacturers certainly don't recommend it, and in my opinion it's just a ticking time bomb. It might also be that a big industrial vehicle like the Iveco is more tolerant than a more highly tuned modern 3.0 TD in a "regular sized" 4x4 SUV. I certainly met TONS of people struggling with "dirty" diesel in modern vehicles - enough to turn me off.
A big thanks to you for saying what I've been saying for years!! I've driven lots of old rigs of all types as far back as the 50's and can agree about how miserable they are to drive, actually you really drive them, it's more like you wrestle them! I was even pulled over in an old dodge truck one time for weaving in my lane, I had to explain to the very young officer that you don't drive these old trucks it's more like herding them! Having driven so many years of vehicles I'm looking around to buy a brand new rig just for the same reasons you said in the video. My 2001 truck has been a monster on the trails but you'll loose a kidney on the streets!! Great video Dan!!
These trade offs also apply to every day commuter cars and I'm of the same mind as you. But good luck convincing someone who's convinced that old cars are better.
I don't think better or convinced is the argument. One, it's what you enjoy. Two, I do all my own repairs so I save TONS of money over a newer vehicle. My maintenance cost is way less than a car payment. Imagine if I took the 60 grand, plus interest and higher insurance, that I would put into a new Toyota, and invested just some of that into my old one. It would be mint! And it would leave me with tons of cash for trips on top of it. I don't see a "Better" here. It's just a choice that works for you. If I had the spare change for a new rig and lots of trips without going into debt, keeping me tied to a job thus having to stay home a lot, I'd do that maybe. Though knowing me Id just restore some old rigs haha. Plus I just enjoy wrenching on my rigs.
My biggest concern with newer vehicles is how sensitive they are when it comes to fuel. I've gotten bad gas in multiple states over the years. My old n/a push-rod motor can handle bad gas for a few miles. Newer vehicles, especially once that are OHC and/or forced induction like the new Jeep JL's and Ford Bronco with the turbos won't survive bad gas. I think the sweet spot for old/new are vehicles early '00s and '10s. Something in the 10-20 range. Mainly because they will be modern era with better components but will also lack many of the "nanny features" and computers/sensors of the newest vehicles on the roads. Personally, I won't own/drive anything with ABS or traction control and nothing with a computer more advanced than I can diagnose with my OBD2 scanner.
True but I have to say the fact that old car's are old and rateling and breaking down makes the trip way more interesting! You are not going on such a trip to stay in your comfort zone!
One more important point to consider is the quality of fuel in the countries you are travelling through. A new truck with the newest DPF filters would struggle driving on the low quality diesel which is available in Iran and Uzbekistan for example. If you will travel through countries of low quality diesel, it is therefore better to go with an older vehicle with less sensitive engine.
All valid points, and something I continually consider. Old vehicles do import reliability risk through wear and even on rebuilt platforms quality of spares has an impact to that. Its too easy for folk to say it has to a fully mechanical system to avoid being stranded, but equally the old system is more likely to fail. After piloting an early Defender 5000 miles to Gambia i suffered a light switch failure, a oil pressure switch failure and 1 damper bush(my fault for missing on inspection) which I was happy with. The noise and heat in the cab however made for some tough days. Fuel quality and later emissions kit is probably the greatest modern risk, and of any failure being terminal though. The conundrum of ICE, hybrid or EV is going to make for some interesting decisions around overland platforms over the next few years.
Good points Dan. But there's something in between, there's a lot of vehicles between the old carburated vehicles vs the latest 2021 model. There's lot's of semi-modern vehicles from the 90's and 00's.
Awesome video! I'm starting to consider what my overland vehicle will be when I retire from the CAF in a couple of years, and I'm leaning toward a lease return mid-size truck, for the reasons you mention in the video. Something recent enough to still be reliable, yet comfortable enough to spend many hours in. Until then it's car camping with my Kona lol.
I think vehicles built 90s and 2000s are in a sweet spot between modern, budget and reliability. So if I had to pick one, would be either a well checked top condition vehicle from this age, or a brand new or super low mileage newer one. An older one maybe if you are handy with spanners and is notorious for its reliability, which of course discards Land Rovers.
I believe that too. Four wheel drive were for the most part, manual transfer case and didn't need manual locking hubs. There were not many that were fully electronic. That's the thing that bothers me. I would love a new Jeep Wk2 but it's full of electronics, which would be very hard to repair or replace far from civilization.
Dan! I agree on that there are good arguments with both opinions that is valid, however. I think your main argument against the older vehicle is caused by bad preparation, if you plan a longer trip you also replace all strategic simple components (radiator, hoses, belts, generator, wheel bearings etc) that your are dependent on and may have wear, anything else is just plain stupid, at least in my way of seeing it! And an english car is a bad example - of course it needs a lot of maintenance and repairs during the trip! :) It's because Scott drove a Toyota they didn't have any issues ;) Thanks for another great video, I like that you present objective arguments for every opinion. Have a good one! /Magnus
Certainly good preparation is key, though I know Mick and Ed did a TON of work to their landy in South Africa before they started.... and again in Europe before they started the West Coast... and even still had all those problems.
Late 90s to early 2000s are the sweet spot, ideally with rigs under 150K miles. The side benefit is that all the fail points are known and can be zeroed before the trip. And they are cheep enough so you can lose the rig and it will not ruin you.
@@leeloo21231234 ???? you are making NO sense at all. You go over the car New clamps, belts and hoses, inspect the wires and connectors. Timing belt, check for leaks. With a 20 year old car all the issues are known. Bushing and shocks are easy to inspect and replace. And it hurts a lot less to leave 15K in a ditch somewhere than 100K. There is nothing like finding out that the coil packs are failing after 20K miles on your new truck)
@@bindingcurve I had both old and new cars. I had 2009 Landcruiser.. not so old. All inspected.. First overland trip .. longer corugated roads.. many things failed. I speak from experience. And I seen many vehicles that could do fine maybe many years on normal use, take them off road an they start breaking very fast. After talking it to a full inspection at a Toyota dealer, than going on my trip, I had the following. EGR clogged up, stabilising bar bushings - gone .. Alternator issues, had to do a rebuild . later found small transmission leak, nothing serious. Than some problems with the brakes, front shocks gone - All this happen in 2000 km, no extreme off roading ,but on some rough roads trough Albania, Montenegro and Macedonia. If I would have kept it for driving on the normal roads found in West Europe, probably I would have had 0 or minor issues another 10 years. You push a vehicle that old.. it will break, no matter what it is.
The old vs new really comes down to the vechicle, the old ones really need a full rebuild to be reliable, for me honestly is if your going to use diesel older is better, but petrol is prob the most reliable way now
Great video, but your dead wrong about the Toyota troop carrier you mentioned in the video. Even in 2020 the turbo diesel is not computer controlled , And it doesn't have abs braking . It can run with one wire to the fuel solenoid . Thats why its so reliable!!!
Thank you for another great and thoughtful video Dan. I appreciate how deep you go with these topics. Here's a follow up question for this video: if you were building another overland vehicle now to go back to Tierra del Fuego would you choose a low mile JK or JL? The JL's look great and per the theme of your video they are newer (and probably more thoroughly tested and reliable). Ursa Minor makes a camper shell for the JL and to my knowledge most of the aftermarket mods that you've done are available in the JL. Still, the JL is newer and probably slightly more complicated to work on in remote places. What do you think?
@@TheRoadChoseMe Ok, what if there was a used JK and a JL Rubicon available of equal mileage and price (let's call them both 2018, early and late model year), which one would you go for? (putting aside that your own mods that you would personally want to transfer over - let's say that you didn't have any of them and you were starting from scratch)? Thank you so much!
@Eric Kratzer I'm not a huge fan of buying the first year of anything.. so I don't think I'd get a 2018 JL, I'd rather a 2019 or 2020 (but of course that will be more money). At one point I almost got a 2012 JK (first year of the 3.6 V6).. but went with a 2011 instead so I could have the last year of the old engine. That turned out to be an excellent choice when virtually all the 2012s had head problems.
Great video Dan. Reliability, safety, and comfort are what is needed on those long trips. I’d argue for a modern rig for the big expeditions, but certainly wouldn’t mind and old CJ-5 to cruise around town or hit the mountains for a day.
Well I generally agree with you. In my opinion though it comes down to reliability of one specific vehicle. The Land Rovers don't have the reputation to be the best in reliability, that maybe one reason your example broke down so often. Thanks Dan
I think it all comes down to budget. My budget does not have the $100k available for a new land cruiser. I would say, if you setup a $10,000 vehicle budget, you could pick up an older (late 90's to 00's) Pajero, Grand Cherokee, Terracan, Cherokee, Jackeroo, etc, have the important bits upgrades (suspension, radiator, alternator, sensors) and still have money left for overlanding gear. Maybe not the rooftop tent though. There is nothing wrong with turn of the century vehicles. And I would say, in far off places, any mechanic worth his salt could diagnose most issues. On newer ones, better hope the garage has the correct scanner and diagnostic machines.
Oh, I agree entirely. And I wasn't suggesting you spend $100k on a vehicle. The Jeep I drove around Africa was 5 years old when I set out, and it cost me $18k. I think most people would still call it "new" (or at least newer) because it has all the safety features, etc.
I can't agree more. As a product design engineer who has worked in automotive, mechanical, and electrical products, I am constantly looking at projects we worked on 5 or 7 years ago like it was the "olden days". There were such less strict requirements, so many less process controls, so much worse performing manufacturing companies, the list goes on. Progress for quality is consistently being made in the background and people are extremely terrible at noticing it due to long timespans (years), nostalgia and not noticing "what is missing". A broken window motor is a great example of this. Either your window motor breaks, or it doesn't. But a window motor not breaking is the norm, and breaking is a problem. If you own a car for 10 years and you never have to replace the window motor that isn't a "very reliable design" it is just considered normal. No praise, no surprise. Therefore people just don't notice reliability. They only notice unreliability. So it is extremely difficult to compare your reliability unless you are comparing to others or their experiences. People also don't have access to the kind of "internal only" engineering data that big companies do. Have you ever seen a graph of number of transmission replacements per 100,000 cars per 100,000 miles graphed against model year? No, because that is an extremely secretive statistic that Jeep/whoever would keep under wraps. But I promise you that those are exactly the kinds of graphs that people like me are reviewing and we are fighting for. My "worth" I derive from work, about doing a good job, is tied to whether or not I am making a great product. Whether or not all my car buddies can be stoked about the cool stuff we work on. Proud designers want to leave a legacy of making things better, breaking records, pushing boundaries, having "million mile (car)" articles written about our projects. I think Dan did a great job highlighting his first hand experience with these details and I think it was a good way to articulate exactly why my best travel vehicle is as new as is reasonable within my budget, as low of miles as is reasonable within my budget, and as standard or proven as is reasonable.
Tienes que ponderar el precio de compra de un vehículo nuevo y tienes que ponderar también el costo de las reparaciones (mucho más caras en vehículos nuevos) y por otro lado tienes que mirar que los vehículos nuevo tienen una vida útil menor (obsolescencia programada) creo que a corto y medio plazo tienes razón un vehículo nuevo es mejor, pero cuando pasas de las 100mil millas o los 10 ó 15 años ya no es lo mismo
What about the initial outlay cost, a new V8 land cruiser is basically the cost of a house in Western Australia, whereas a 60/80series or a old county Land Rover can be bad for 10k...
Of course that's a big factor. The Jeep I drove from Alaska to Argentina was 9 years old and cost $5k. The Jeep I drove all the way around Africa was 5 years old and cost $18k.
I like the topic and you have raised some interesting points. However, I do think your examples have been a bit selective there. - Some people do buy a modern vehicle and have no problems for 100,000 miles. Most don't as evidenced by any annual list of warranty faults by unit sold for each make, and that's mostly in on-road conditions. Also good luck with warranty claims in Africa on your foreign specification car. - Modern Land Cruiser V8's *are* very reliable. However I would bet if they were provided by Toyota for an expedition, Toyota engineers are going to be poring over that vehicle especially carefully before delivery to prevent any embarrassment. Most people simply don't have the budget for a new Land Cruiser V8 anyway. Imagine the Carnet bond value on that! - A sensibly prepped largely standard older vehicle *should* be reliable. The problem is the scale of options which are lumped into one "old 4x4 overlander" group. At one end of the scale there are people who spend the price of a new vehicle prepping and modifying an old one. That makes no sense at all. At the other end of the scale is the people who buy a used 80's or 90's 4x4, ship it with no prep and it ends in tears. Generally these are the extremes we hear about online as they make the best stories. There is probably middle ground there that should be both cost effective and reliable. - It also sounds like your mate Ed with the Land Rover either wasn't much of a mechanic or was using some of the cheap rubbish substandard parts that are going around for them now. (Hint: anything for a Land Rover in a blue box is crap!) I guess for me, part of it is also the bond you form with an older vehicle, the love hate relationship that makes the trip more interesting. But on the comfort and safety factors, you are entirely correct.
You made me chuckle about crumple zones and Defenders, they actually don't have any. At least they have a collapsible steering column which my Series III doesn't! I admit, I'm somewhat of a masochist and I drive my 40 year old Land Rover everywhere, from going to the shops to driving the width of Africa, but even I wouldn't advise an older vehicle for overland travel. Even when fully restored with new, high quality parts, a reconditioned engine, gearbox and cooling system, they are inherently less reliable than modern vehicles, simply because they are older designs. For much the same reason, the service intervals are by necessity much shorter - you don't grease prop-shafts and steering linkages every 3,000 miles (5,000 km) anymore do you? In my experience, African mechanics know far more about modern vehicles than we give them credit for. In fact, a lot of the younger ones have never seen carburettors and points-type ignition systems anymore, let alone fixed them. In fact, getting parts for these older vehicles can be a pain in the UK, let alone Africa. My advice would be buy the best vehicle you can afford, hopefully a vehicle you are familiar with as that is a help. Toyota have by far the biggest global presence (although the UK is an exception) and just for the ease of local know-how and being able to source parts on the road, and they are worth the extra money. Series Land Rovers can work, because there are many still running from when they were locally assembled from knock-down kits, and despite needing constant fettling, can be made reasonably reliable for what they are, although quite why they thought just three 35 amp fuses for the whole car was a good idea! It is what it is, and unless you really love a particular vehicle or just as deranged and lacking in sense as myself, I really wouldn't recommend it. Even so, I'd buy a Land Cruiser 70 Series if I could get one here in the UK (never officially sold here though, so I may have to buy one in Africa). Buy the best you can afford, and remember that it's a compromise between spending the money on the vehicle, your trip and, sometimes, the dreaded carnet!
If I had the money the only overlander I would buy is a modern Toyota 70 series or 4x4 pickup, maybe a Suzuki (Grand Vitara). In Ecuador I've seen too many modern Jeeps (Wrangler's and Rubicons) and Defenders transported on platforms to a specialized shop because they broke down probably from a damaged sensor.... programmed obsolescence and too many computerized electronics is not a reliable factor in modern 4x4's, plus they can only be fixed at the stealership! Yes, new with less than 100thousand kms is likely to be under warranty and shouldn't give any problems. But apart from safety features which are a plus on modern vehicles, I'd rather get me any late 80's - 90's Toyota or similar...and I'd spend my money on fixing everything like new before venturing out into the world. The motto is to keep it simple and uncomplicated.
As usual, Dan is correct but I still cant let go of the picture in my imagination where I take my fully restored (mechanically) 67 Nissan Patrol on an epic overland trip (probably stuffed with money to pay for the gas). I'm no stranger to long distance drives in old crap. In 2015, my buddy and I "restored" a 67 Volvo Amazon to retrace many of the original routes of the Shell 4000 (4000 mile rally across Canada on some of the toughest roads in the country - those rallies pre-dated many parts of the paved Trans Canada highway). We connected a few of these routes together to take us from Edmonton to Vancouver and then all the way to Halifax - mostly on dirt and gravel - and ended up covering 9,000 km in 10 days that included three days break in the middle. But, with that experience driving old vehicles extremely long distances and knowing I can fix what breaks, Dan's argument remains rock solid. (Google "Canada Shell 4000" for some cool 😎 info and pictures of one of the world's toughest and most popular rallies of the time. )
Mine was 5 years old when I started my trip and is 10 years old now. It's just starting to show some signs of age, and I'd want to do some more major stuff before setting out for another 50,000 mile + expedition. So I'd say aim for something around 5 years old with maybe 60,000 miles and you should be great for another 5+ years and 140,000+ miles
I think this is true, except for new Land Rovers. They are as unreliable as 40 year old land Rovers. See tfloffroad's recent saga with the new Defender. The thing is, a newish vehicle will cost a lot more than a worn out 40 year old land cruiser. If you can score a decent old land cruiser you can invest $15,000 to refresh everything that wears out and it will be reliable again, and still in total not more expensive than a newer vehicle. You can also add sound deadening. Plus then it will have a higher resale value afterwards than the newer vehicle which will have depreciated because its complexity means it will hold its value less. The old land cruisers will just keep going decade after decade long after the recent electronic vehicles aren't worth maintaining anymore once their parts start failing and are unreliable. It's a practical exercise to go through an old land cruiser and refresh everything; but not at all practical to do the same in 20 years for a modern vehicle from today. So as long as the land cruiser doesn't rust out it will hold its value "indefinitely". You do make a good point about safety. I wonder how hard it is to add airbags to an old vehicle. For that reason I don't think I'd take one on a world tour due to the increased risk of head-ons. But for exploring remote areas of BC and Canada it would be OK because there is much less chance of a head-on.
I have to respectfully disagree with you. Our current LR3 has 242,000 kms on it. I have replaced some bushings, 2 sets of brakes, 1 CV axle. I did all the belts hoses and water pump as preventative maintenance. It gets used hard, heavily loaded in Northern Canada. Our sons Range Rover HSE has 236,000 km, and has only needed a crank sensor.
I think there might be a difference between older vehicles and older vehicles that have been maintained let alone prepared for such an adventure. When you are talking about radiators/ alternators and stuff like that needing to be replaced I dont see anybody in their right mind that would consider making such a journey not replacing those things before they start.
I understand what you're saying, but remember that tons of folks are on tight budgets, so replacing parts that "seem fine" is low on the priority list!
Hi Dan, Got a question for you that Im wondering if you have any knowledge on based on the in depth and practical research youve done and the talking to hundreds of travelers on the road. What actually has the most effect on MPG in your opinion in order of ranking. That way I know what to prioritize, I know you cant get the best of all worlds, but trying to compromise best I can. Between Offset, tire width, unsprung weight, tire tread. I knwo they all matter, but the more research I do, it seems that offset is under-rated as a major culprit of MPG decrease. Even when we aren't speaking to extreme negative offset setups. But compared to stock wheels which are typically +10 to +25 offset on narrow wheels like 7" or 7.5" even a 17x8 or 17x8.5 at 0mm is 0.8 to 1.2" more stance. Would love to get your feedback. Right now I have skinny tires and lightweight wheel ready to go up on my rig but the stance is a bit wide. 17x8 -10 and I am reconsidering. Its almost impossible to find a lightweight wheel with near factory offset.
It seems that a new or couple years old 70 series Landcruiser would be the best choice for such long expeditions. And that is a vehicle you definitely can run underweight. The biggest problem is that they are still very expensive and hard to get in most countries.
@@kg0173 but those are hard to come by for the US and have a nasty price tag to match. The JDM stuff is cheaper and lower mileage (and in just nice condition)
Good lord, I hope you don't have 20 year old tires on the car. But it is kind of funny, the debates the guys who drive the older cars have about modern oil. Rust is a nightmare for older vehicles.
@@bindingcurve No, I’ve got new tires! I’ve had far fewer problems with tires for my sedans in the past 10 years than I used to have - tire quality in my experience seems to have improved. Your own experience might be different. Cheers.
As I've come to expe t from your videos a wonderful well reasoned argument. However this is one factor I'm a little disappointed you dudnt consider and that is price. Depending on the type and age of vechical older models can be cheaper and as you say the less you spend preparing the longer your on the road for.
Some Great points I think! My guess is like youve demonstrated personally, is to get the newest vehicle you can afford with the proper capability for what your going to be doing that has tried and true systems reliability. Oh and I feel like the Land Cruiser is a bit of a mix like the jeep. It seems to be a combination of old and new tech. Newer electronics but still old school tech like solid axles and body on frame. None of newer tech air suspension or unibody construction.
I am not really sure if agree with "newer vehicle are designed better because of computer aided design". Often older constructions are less "optimised". They just used more material when they were not sure if it can handle the load.
Yep. You surprised me on that one. Oh I totally agree with you. But I expected you would say old. And a Land Rover Discovery? Hahaha. Those things aren't made to drive around the block much less a continent! They probably have the worst track record for dependability out there. Just the thought of owning something made by a company called TATA motors makes me a little nauseous! Hahaha.
Dan, again a well reasoned argument, as we have started to expect from you, BUT, a few comments: New vehicles that go into limp mode is not going to be fixed by any road side mechanic, therefore pick your new vehicle well. And don't assume you will be able to spend years on the road with no scratches when loading on overfull ferries, Bicycles bumping against the vehicle, etc. If you have an older vehicle and prepare it properly (see Paul Marsh, who replace all rubber, bushes, bearings, etc., based on many years overlanding experience when he prepare a vehicle) may just be a worthy of consideration, especially adding a few sound deadening sheets as part of the preparation - finally, older vehicles are cheaper, so insurance and if you do require a Carnet, are more affordable, and Chris Scott have said in Overlander's handbook that the best vehicle is one that you can leave if it breaks down and just buy another cheapie - and carry on - maybe not a bad idea if vehicle is old.
As a Kenyan, we need to change our mindset when it comes to road safety. Most accidents on our roads are as a result of human error! I think budget plays a big part when it comes to new vs old. I remember I recommended Lake Oloiden campsite when you came through Kenya.
I agree! Except that I would change "as a result of human error" with "as a result of human stupidity". Overtaking in blind bends and constantly risking other people's lives knowing fully about it to gain a few minutes like it's always happening in Kenya (where I live) is actually more than stupidity, it's criminal behaviour that should lead to long jail sentences - it's unacceptable.
That said, I don't want to scare people from travelling here - Kenya is amazing and travelling here is wonderful outside a couple of main highways.
84 down days with an old Land Rover is not because it's old, but because it's a Land Rover
the newerer have more tech and are still Land Rovers?
Possibly also with minimal prep and using lots of Shitpart components as replacements when things did break. Quality Alternators and bushes should last many years and many thousands of miles.
Dan, you've been using this same presentation format for quite a few months now, but I'm struck by how nicely you knit together themes with their examples now, and avoid the verbal wandering that seems endemic on UA-cam. No question, you've got this down well. It's a pleasure to view your videos, which is why I chose to be a 'team member'. Bravo Zulu.
Thanks Jack!
I'm certainly itching to move onto a new format - first it will be documenting the whys, whats and hows of the new vehicle I'll be building, then it will be documenting the next expedition.
I can't wait!
@@TheRoadChoseMe I second Jack's opinion. Totally true and can't wait to see the new vehicle!
I just love how you simply debunks most, if not all, tradicional overlanding presumptions.
You lucked out Dan. I have a 2015 wrangler which has been very well maintained. On this 300 day trip I’ve replaced the thermostat twice, clock spring, timing chains, catalytic converter and throttlebody. 173,000 on it now.
We who buy an old 4x4 (at less who is smart) in europe, to travel around africa, did a complete restoration of the vehicle and upgrading of several components before start our expeditions. We only have a few minor failures whith easy solution. All those new cars with a lot of electronics, fails much more on mud, sand, crossing deep water courses... so the question is not if the car is new or old, but if the owner is enought aware of what’s he is doing.
You are missing the point, friend, about reliability. Instead of spending $50,000 - $100,000 on a new vehicle spend maybe $5,000 at home replacing all of the items on an old vehicle which might wear out. In my vehicle all of these items have already been replaced and I expect to return home without failures en route.
When you talk about new vehicles you need to be more specific. If the electronics are confined to the essential items then that's good but when they intrude into other functions you are asking for trouble. Too many modern 4x4s and SUVs have electronics just to be sexy and to have bragging rights.
The guy you quote who spent many weeks repairing his old vehicle was simply asking for trouble. Replace items like wheel bearings, hoses (and use new silicone parts), clutches, bushes, shock absorbers - the list goes on - at home. Alternators, starter motors and power steering pumps, gearboxes, differentials should all be reconditioned. I have done that and when the odd item slips under the wire I can fix it on the road. If anyone leaves home for a big trip without doing that they will have problems and it is their own fault, sorry.
Safety? Yes new vehicles are better no question.
Interesting video but not necessarily balanced. You skip over the cases of people whose trips were ruined because some stupid problem caused an electronic meltdown.
The Wrangler I drove from Alaska to Argentina was 8 years old and cost $5k.
The Wrangler I drove around Africa was 5 years old and cost $18k.
In no world am I talking about spending $50-100k !!!
@@TheRoadChoseMe
Point taken but many do spend that sort of money.
Fully agree. It’s foolish to have a ten year old hose or belt on a vehicle that going to be put through the wringer. C’mon guys, have some common sense.
After reading the comments here-in, some from very experienced overlanders, I think that some balance is in order. The truth is that both sides of the argument hold water and i believe it comes down to a person's preference combined with their circumstances.
The over-arching problem to be solved is reliability and this can be achieved by either buying new (newer) or preparing an older vehicle properly and fully. Either way you need to prepare and you must know your vehicle intimately. There's no right and wrong in regards to old versus new - Only differing strategies for achieving reliability
Life would be pretty boring if we all drove new V8 Land Cruisers. And without Land Rovers the tow hooks on Land Cruisers would be redundant.... (ok, that was a cheap shot - It doesn't mean I don't respect the marque).
But what would I do ? I would lean towards a newer vehicle manufactured in the last 20 years or something new. But I don't look down on those whom take loving care of their older pride and joy.
@@TheRoadChoseMe Good for you. I just check and cheapest year 2014 wrangler cost 39 599 euro :D
Why would anyone go on an extended overland journey in a old vehicle with old belts and hoses? I’m sure the 84 day trip could have been cut by two thirds if the vehicle had had updated parts.
I have 357,000km on my 2014 FJ Cruiser that I've had since new. To date I have replaced the brakes and the shocks. That's it. I used to have a '77 Cutlass. I spent $1,500/year just keeping it running. The difference between old and new isn't even a contest.
70's cars were junk in the 80's.
Of course I agree. But I suppose an older car may still make sense if you can buy *and prepare* it for relatively cheap. So replace everything that might need replacement before starting any long expedition. No excuse to get caught with a rusted, leaking radiator, it should probably have been replaced as a matter of precaution. Idem for all the hoses and belts, the electrical wiring, parts of the drivetrain/steering/suspension etc.
Basically make sure the old car really is as good as new. Might only be affordable if you're a good DIY mechanic.
I think things like vehicle safety and comfort are legitimately subject to personal choice and preference. I just like old vehicles and still feel confident enough driving without ABS or airbags, but I do understand that some people want these for reassurance.
Most of that stuff is relatively cheep to do, and a LOT cheaper than a new rig.
Un vehículo viejo bien restaurado y mantenido también es buena opción.
To heck with groundhogs. Dan without his toque is the certain sign of spring I've been waiting for. :)
+9C here today. Still tons of snow on the ground and the wood fire is lit, but it feels like thing are changing!
Starting my trip next month in a 1983 fj60!
Good luck. Where you going?
@@baashie I'm going to be going over the whole US for the next year.
All valid and good points. I chose a vintage rig for it's style that I love and the fact that I'm a mechanic makes it doable. I'd say the only thing you didn't hit, (and one of the big reasons so many of us choose old rides), is the expense of buying new vs old rigs.
And the higher insurance and Carnet expense on newer vehicles too...
I have a 2020 Chevy Colorado and also a 1991 jeep XJ. I drive the jeep more than anything. And the jeep has 300,000 miles still running strong
New vehicles are not always an option on cost and buy the best buy once is a nice concept but for some people just having a vehicle they can get out with is all they can afford
If old or new, it really doesn‘t matter. The most reliable car is the one you prepared well and which you maintain well. You have to do your daily checks with any vehicle. Problems occur when you get lazy. I have driven 40‘000 km in Africa with Land Rovers and Toyotas. Both were very reliable. You just need need to look under the bonnet and under the car every day.
Trucks and busses passing on completely blind corners is certainly a “Thing”...
South of Mexico City the bus FULL of people I was on was passing vehicles on completely blind corners on a highway (paved, but road at best) mostly being used by big trucks.
Near straight up and straight down deep canyon walls, narrow 2 lanes, tight curves, and no guardrails. Our only option was to ignore the situation.
This was early 70’s.
I use late 90s 4x4s for all my overlanders. I buy a good cheap vehicle, and strip it clean it frame up new everything 15 thousand dollars later super custom nice reliable vehicle for Overlanding. And I know it inside and out. just my way I do it. I end up with a brand new old 4x4 custom built. I even strip the inside and add soundproofing.
1:57 answer to the debate: landcruiser 76 series, brandnew Old school, I have a 2015 76 series with the old 1hz 6 inline n/a diesel, mech diesel pump, no computers, sensors, or even abs for that matter, yet I bought it brand new.
Great choice, though unfortunately there are *very* few places in the world that is possible. So for the very vast majority of people, it's unobtainium.
@@TheRoadChoseMe 25 year rule in the US, but you are dealing with RHD :(
And in all honesty, once they're 25 years old, I don't believe they are as reliable or durable or desire-able as a modern vehicle.
@@TheRoadChoseMe I don't know, a lot of those JDM imports look like mall crawlers. Sub 100,000 KM for $20K. And 80s for even less. 16K for a 60K mile 80 series with the FZ is tempting
I add this comment, speaking directly to Dan's audience. First IMHO, Dan's level-headed, non-ego based, mature, and experienced-based overlanding advice is some of the very best on UA-cam. Unlike many on UA-cam, I find myself disagreeing very little with what Dan shares with all of you. Dan doesn't feel compelled to simply support HIS way of overlanding or the equipment he's chosen for his adventures. He tells you when he's made mistakes and could have done something better. All that said, I'd add one more caveat to this particular video. Not that Dan missed this point about picking an "old" vs "new" vehicles for overlanding, it's just that Dan is too young and energetic to "think" of my additional comment. I use modern vehicles to overland and lead tours for all the reasons Dan shares, but for me, it's also because I'm OLDER. I'm not as agile, flexible, or as aerobic as I once was. So, remote, solo, and international breakdowns are a real problem for me due to my age. At the end of the day, we only have TIME. Although I love working on my vehicles when I'm comfortable at home or in camp, but on the trail, I say NO THANKS. I want to spend my time exploring, not licking my wounds because I spent an entire day on my back in the mud repairing a dysfunctional driveline. I also don't want to have to walk long distances from a broken down vehicle to a nearby village or township.
That's nice. I replaced the radiator in my 2015 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon at 45,000 miles. Jeep is aware of this issue. It turns out that radiator problems are not just unusual, they're typical. Jeep just replaces them when sued but not as a warranty. So I bought a Subaru and will not be going back.
Yeah those are flawless
There was a famous tv ad in the US for Fram filters with the mechanic looking at you and shaking his head, "Pay me now, or pay me later...". And it's very true. You pay for your vehicle one way or the other. The easiest problem to fix is the one you prevent. With modern vehicles, you prevent those problems by paying for it upfront in cost, insurance, expensive parts, etc. Older vehicle problems are prevented but cost you in rebuilds, time, maintenance, etc but cost less in insurance and carnets. I can't afford a brand new Toyota Land Cruiser or Troopy. To me, the best overland vehicle (or any vehicle for that matter) is a mechanically simpler older vehicle that has been rebuilt or extremely well maintained. I don't mind going slower. Older, less sophisticated vehicles also teach you a lot about 'mechanical sympathy'; the art of driving within the limits of the vehicle. Again, fixing a problem by preventing it.
Thank you for doing this, it's a topic discussed over and over again, everywhere! I keep hearing how easy it is to fix a carburetor and you can't fix an injector, but personally I've never had the need to fix an injector and the list could go on! Also safety is usually a very overlooked or even ignored topic - up until you reach a country where people drive like crazy. Like REAL crazy, not like "western crazy"
The 80’s and 90’s were a really long time ago?!?!.
I fell very old right now.☹️
Trust me, me too!
@@TheRoadChoseMe lol!👍
U are always on point......very intelligent guy
Thanks! Now I am convinced my GX460 is perfect.
You are always so good to explain with rationality.
Dan, your points are all well placed. My Dodge Cummings just turned 250,000 miles and I’m just now doing some work on it!
I'm building a 2009 Porsche Cayenne diesel into an overlanding vehicle. I think it's perfect. Modern enough to be reliable, cheap enough to modify and do what I want with it. And also has the cool factor of being a Porsche.
Cool project! Can I follow the progress somewhere?
@@sjoerd_maasland581 I will be sharing updates once I start the build on: facebook.com/groups/484150522226556
It's a FB group dedicated to offroading VAG/Porsche vehicles. Lots of others are doing it. Other than this not really, I like my privacy.
@@emixmim thanks
I would check out the video about the diesel being sold around the world.
@@bindingcurve I plan on taking it to south America, I should be good. Diesel has its advantages, lower costs overall and also much cheaper to tax in my country than the V8s.
You nailed it... 100%. I spend most of my time overlanding in a 70 year-old Jeep and sometimes bask in the luxury of a 50 year-old Wagoneer. For me, the old vehicles are part of the adventure. Yes, my Willys will still be crawling around with the cockroaches after the apocalypse. Will it make it the next 1000 miles without a problem? Probably not. When I can't risk a breakdown or the family is coming along, we find ourselves in a 2015 pickup because they just work better in almost every way.
"Old vehicles are part of the adventure" Couldn't have said it any better myself.
"First-Year Gen2 US80 series" here lol ('93). Chose it for its 3-diff-lock capability. And relative to anything newer, its refined lack of software technology needed to operate them.
And OBD1.
In remote places, ODB1 is what you want for peace for mind. And the confidence to go farther, higher, longer. lol
I love those things, but does it drink gas?
After reading the comments here-in, some from very experienced overlanders, I think that some balance is in order. The truth is that both sides of the argument hold water and i believe it comes down to a person's preference combined with their circumstances.
The over-arching problem to be solved is reliability and this can be achieved by either buying new (newer) or preparing an older vehicle properly. Either way you need to prepare and you must know your vehicle intimately. There's no right and wrong in regards to old versus new - Only differing strategies for achieving reliability
Life would be pretty boring if we all drove new V8 Land Cruisers. And without Land Rovers the tow hooks on Land Cruisers would be redundant.... (ok, that was a cheap shot - It doesn't mean I don't respect the marque).
But what would I do ? I would lean towards a newer vehicle manufactured in the last 20 years or something new. But I don't look down on those whom take loving care of their older pride and joy.
You are absolutely right that both sides should be considered and there's no "one size fits all approach". I just wanted to shed light on the idea that old vehicles are ALWAYS better.
@@TheRoadChoseMe Yes, i agree. I believe that you were trying to describe the attitude of some folk whom believe that older is always better. These are the same people who think that having a crash in an older car is safer because they are tougher.
The truth is that modern cars are both safer and more reliable.
Love my old jeep xj 1994 all what you do just look after and he will look after you
I have a 89 XJ limited. I'm pretty sure a good ol xj could make the journey. The comment about cars from the 80s and 90s not passing 150k miles on stock engine and gear box was confusing.
I think one thing your're missing here, is the simple fact, that there aren't any newer vehicles available with the room and ruggedness, at least not here in Germany/Europe. The only modern 4wd you can get and afford, are basically Pickups (Ford Ranger, Hilux), Defenders and Jeeps. This is 'cause of legislation, CO2 fleet consumption and emissions. And its been like that for more than 10 years. If, like me, you need something with room for 2 plus child, you're stuck with old, or Defender (not an option because of discomfort).
Mine is a 1993 W463 G-Class Diesel with more than 300tkm (also because I just love it).
Everyone's version of adventure is different.
For years I've tried to justify buying an older vehicle for a Pan American trip, with my dream vehicle being a 1955-59 panel van. I used to bring up all the same points you brought up about the ability to fix the vehicle or get parts.
After many years I've finally gotten to the point where I'll readily admit that I'm not doing it because it's the smartest choice, I'm doing it because I like the adventure of it. I like the idea of giving something old a second life full of amazing people and places, and building it up myself so I know it inside and out.
I'm under no impression that my trip will be free of mechanical problems or anything, but I look at every possible problem as another opportunity to create a cool story that I will remember for the rest of my life and be able to tell people for years to come.
I will always choose the older vehicle because that's just who I am, and I will always tell others that it's probably not the right choice for them. No choice is wrong if it's made with open eyes. Just see if I don't have laughter in my eyes when I tell the stories after the trip is done though!
Great video Dan. Thank you for the insight. Glad we've made the decision we have for our global vehicle. ~ E
you are a legend
Dan. Good video. But coment a little bit about the money aspect of this theme. It is very important for the most part of overlanders. In Brazil, where I live, a vehicle, in general, costs in US dollar much more than the same model costs in US or Canada, because of too much taxes. A new brand Jeep Rubicon like yours is for sale above 100k, for exemple. I guess it costs much less where you live. A good balance between price and quality (cost and benefit relation) is hard to find, such it is between new and old car models.
Really good point!
The Toyota Hilux with the 4.0 gasoline engine is the newest vehicle I'd feel comfortable driving around the world with.
Dan, this is the best advice video I have seen you make. I am the guy who questioned you in your last video about being a bit more specific in a good vehicle to take. You took me to task and it was probably deserved.
This video is the kind of info to provide: what you have seen and what your experiences have taught you. We had a 2016 Camry and a 2003 MR2: both card COULD have made it around Africa, but the MR2 has 4 cubic feet of storage space and is 4" off the ground. The Camry was new to us. So we had to buy something. This video would have helped and confirmed our choice of vehicle (an old unmodifed 2005 GX470. Nicely scratched up, beaten, comfortable and runs like a top).
Keep making the videos. We eagerly await each one.
GX470 is a awesome choice. Don't be like the guy with the 2009 Landcruiser and not have all your suspension soft points gone over. Cooling, tie-rods, alternator, and brakes as well. And for the love of god, don't have the local Lexus dealership go over the truck before your trip.
Ford said ..." which is the best car? A new car" 😀😀😀 ... hands down...land rovers are famous for reliability...just check grizzly and bear overland... in almost every episode they have to fix something..but i admire their love for the land rovers and work they do....
I’ve spent more time than I probably should have pondering the tradeoffs between new and old. This is the best treatment of the subject I’ve seen. Informed, objective, and logical- awesome job on this content!
Thanks!
Fair comparison and I agree. The one caution I have is using anything Land Rover or Range Rover when talking about reliability. If I were to travel in any of those I KNOW being broke down a lot will be part of the experience.
Whereas my 29 year old Toyota is the most reliable thing I've ever owned, and that includes newer Jeeps and Fords. I did change out the radiator, hoses, belts, etc simply because they are things that go with age. That's the deeper maintenance mindset that goes along with owning and traveling remotely in an older vehicle.
So ya, I think the biggest thing for me is repairability on the road, knowledge of my vehicle and common wear and failure points with it, and doing the deeper maintenance. With a Toyota, that tends to work. Land Rover, well, you never know! :D
We have 1 Discovery 1, one LR3 and a Range Rover HSE. All have approx 250,000 km each. Brakes, 1 cv axle and a crank sensor, plus cooling system preventative maintenance is all they have had done. After driving Land Rover, and how comfortable and capable they are, I wouldn't own anything else.
makes you wonder why someone would undertake such a long and difficult trip without going through the vehicle at home and check it for parts that would need replacement. Seals, rubber tie rod ends, clutches, etc.... these are easy to check.
You need in some countries to have an older Diesel engine that can handle dirty fuel. Some modern sensor-laden engines simply can’t cope. Obviously it depends where you are going.
My fuel injected vehicles have done fine in 17 countries in Latin America and 35 countries around Africa...
Not completely correct. Check out tuckstruck.net They have taken a Iveco Daily with a Euro5 motor over 200,000km through Africa and the Americas without a fuel issue
I've seen their stuff a few times and I'm happy it worked for them, but the manufacturers certainly don't recommend it, and in my opinion it's just a ticking time bomb.
It might also be that a big industrial vehicle like the Iveco is more tolerant than a more highly tuned modern 3.0 TD in a "regular sized" 4x4 SUV. I certainly met TONS of people struggling with "dirty" diesel in modern vehicles - enough to turn me off.
I totally agree with you
A big thanks to you for saying what I've been saying for years!! I've driven lots of old rigs of all types as far back as the 50's and can agree about how miserable they are to drive, actually you really drive them, it's more like you wrestle them! I was even pulled over in an old dodge truck one time for weaving in my lane, I had to explain to the very young officer that you don't drive these old trucks it's more like herding them! Having driven so many years of vehicles I'm looking around to buy a brand new rig just for the same reasons you said in the video. My 2001 truck has been a monster on the trails but you'll loose a kidney on the streets!! Great video Dan!!
These trade offs also apply to every day commuter cars and I'm of the same mind as you.
But good luck convincing someone who's convinced that old cars are better.
I don't think better or convinced is the argument. One, it's what you enjoy. Two, I do all my own repairs so I save TONS of money over a newer vehicle. My maintenance cost is way less than a car payment.
Imagine if I took the 60 grand, plus interest and higher insurance, that I would put into a new Toyota, and invested just some of that into my old one. It would be mint! And it would leave me with tons of cash for trips on top of it.
I don't see a "Better" here. It's just a choice that works for you.
If I had the spare change for a new rig and lots of trips without going into debt, keeping me tied to a job thus having to stay home a lot, I'd do that maybe. Though knowing me Id just restore some old rigs haha. Plus I just enjoy wrenching on my rigs.
My biggest concern with newer vehicles is how sensitive they are when it comes to fuel. I've gotten bad gas in multiple states over the years. My old n/a push-rod motor can handle bad gas for a few miles. Newer vehicles, especially once that are OHC and/or forced induction like the new Jeep JL's and Ford Bronco with the turbos won't survive bad gas. I think the sweet spot for old/new are vehicles early '00s and '10s. Something in the 10-20 range. Mainly because they will be modern era with better components but will also lack many of the "nanny features" and computers/sensors of the newest vehicles on the roads. Personally, I won't own/drive anything with ABS or traction control and nothing with a computer more advanced than I can diagnose with my OBD2 scanner.
I hear you, and I was concerned about it on both m trips but it never became an issue.
True but I have to say the fact that old car's are old and rateling and breaking down makes the trip way more interesting! You are not going on such a trip to stay in your comfort zone!
It really depends on what you want, a vehicle to take on an adventure or a vehicle that creates an adventure.
@@luisfelipebayardomelgoza4104 Land Rover: turning owners into mechanics since 1948.....
One more important point to consider is the quality of fuel in the countries you are travelling through. A new truck with the newest DPF filters would struggle driving on the low quality diesel which is available in Iran and Uzbekistan for example. If you will travel through countries of low quality diesel, it is therefore better to go with an older vehicle with less sensitive engine.
Exactly right, which is why I don't recommend new diesels for global trips! - see this one ua-cam.com/video/YoxdojIpiGY/v-deo.html
Thanks Dan that is really helpful and absolutely loved your video's throughout Africa.
All valid points, and something I continually consider. Old vehicles do import reliability risk through wear and even on rebuilt platforms quality of spares has an impact to that.
Its too easy for folk to say it has to a fully mechanical system to avoid being stranded, but equally the old system is more likely to fail. After piloting an early Defender 5000 miles to Gambia i suffered a light switch failure, a oil pressure switch failure and 1 damper bush(my fault for missing on inspection) which I was happy with. The noise and heat in the cab however made for some tough days.
Fuel quality and later emissions kit is probably the greatest modern risk, and of any failure being terminal though.
The conundrum of ICE, hybrid or EV is going to make for some interesting decisions around overland platforms over the next few years.
Did you have to go to a garage and pay a man to repair it for you?
Love your jeeps man! Great videos too!
Great arguments sir. I concur that newer vehicles are better engineered and because they are newer should be more reliable for long trips.
Good points Dan. But there's something in between, there's a lot of vehicles between the old carburated vehicles vs the latest 2021 model. There's lot's of semi-modern vehicles from the 90's and 00's.
I absolutely agree - the little Jeep I drove to Argentina was a 2000 model year. But it was fuel injected, had ABS and airbags.... so pretty modern.
Awesome video!
I'm starting to consider what my overland vehicle will be when I retire from the CAF in a couple of years, and I'm leaning toward a lease return mid-size truck, for the reasons you mention in the video. Something recent enough to still be reliable, yet comfortable enough to spend many hours in. Until then it's car camping with my Kona lol.
CAF means about 100 different things....
@@cliffmorgan31 start listing them and I'll let you know when you've hit the right one.
I think vehicles built 90s and 2000s are in a sweet spot between modern, budget and reliability. So if I had to pick one, would be either a well checked top condition vehicle from this age, or a brand new or super low mileage newer one. An older one maybe if you are handy with spanners and is notorious for its reliability, which of course discards Land Rovers.
I believe that too. Four wheel drive were for the most part, manual transfer case and didn't need manual locking hubs. There were not many that were fully electronic. That's the thing that bothers me. I would love a new Jeep Wk2 but it's full of electronics, which would be very hard to repair or replace far from civilization.
Dan!
I agree on that there are good arguments with both opinions that is valid, however.
I think your main argument against the older vehicle is caused by bad preparation, if you plan a longer trip you also replace all strategic simple components (radiator, hoses, belts, generator, wheel bearings etc) that your are dependent on and may have wear, anything else is just plain stupid, at least in my way of seeing it!
And an english car is a bad example - of course it needs a lot of maintenance and repairs during the trip! :)
It's because Scott drove a Toyota they didn't have any issues ;)
Thanks for another great video, I like that you present objective arguments for every opinion.
Have a good one!
/Magnus
Certainly good preparation is key, though I know Mick and Ed did a TON of work to their landy in South Africa before they started.... and again in Europe before they started the West Coast... and even still had all those problems.
Late 90s to early 2000s are the sweet spot, ideally with rigs under 150K miles. The side benefit is that all the fail points are known and can be zeroed before the trip. And they are cheep enough so you can lose the rig and it will not ruin you.
I agree with this whole heartedly. Early 2000s have all the tech you need and nothing you don't.
20 years is too old . Every bushing, shock, trailing arm will fail during the trip for sure and the electrics as well.
@@leeloo21231234 ???? you are making NO sense at all. You go over the car New clamps, belts and hoses, inspect the wires and connectors. Timing belt, check for leaks. With a 20 year old car all the issues are known. Bushing and shocks are easy to inspect and replace. And it hurts a lot less to leave 15K in a ditch somewhere than 100K. There is nothing like finding out that the coil packs are failing after 20K miles on your new truck)
@@bindingcurve I had both old and new cars. I had 2009 Landcruiser.. not so old. All inspected.. First overland trip .. longer corugated roads.. many things failed. I speak from experience. And I seen many vehicles that could do fine maybe many years on normal use, take them off road an they start breaking very fast. After talking it to a full inspection at a Toyota dealer, than going on my trip, I had the following. EGR clogged up, stabilising bar bushings - gone .. Alternator issues, had to do a rebuild . later found small transmission leak, nothing serious. Than some problems with the brakes, front shocks gone - All this happen in 2000 km, no extreme off roading ,but on some rough roads trough Albania, Montenegro and Macedonia.
If I would have kept it for driving on the normal roads found in West Europe, probably I would have had 0 or minor issues another 10 years. You push a vehicle that old.. it will break, no matter what it is.
@@leeloo21231234 Great post. Interesting. You didn't mention the miles on the vehicle?
Great video and to the point. As a side note, H in NVH stands for Harshness.
Thanks for going into these most helpful aspects, Dan ❣️
The old vs new really comes down to the vechicle, the old ones really need a full rebuild to be reliable, for me honestly is if your going to use diesel older is better, but petrol is prob the most reliable way now
Cheers Dan, nice vid 👍
Great video, but your dead wrong about the Toyota troop carrier you mentioned in the video. Even in 2020 the turbo diesel is not computer controlled , And it doesn't have abs braking . It can run with one wire to the fuel solenoid . Thats why its so reliable!!!
This one sure is computer controlled, has ABS, power windows, etc. etc.
ua-cam.com/video/dMeCCDcTQi4/v-deo.html
You nailed it.
experience talks. thanks. it make sense. newer is best
Thank you for another great and thoughtful video Dan. I appreciate how deep you go with these topics. Here's a follow up question for this video: if you were building another overland vehicle now to go back to Tierra del Fuego would you choose a low mile JK or JL? The JL's look great and per the theme of your video they are newer (and probably more thoroughly tested and reliable). Ursa Minor makes a camper shell for the JL and to my knowledge most of the aftermarket mods that you've done are available in the JL. Still, the JL is newer and probably slightly more complicated to work on in remote places. What do you think?
Both great choices. It would come down to budget for me personally.
@@TheRoadChoseMe Ok, what if there was a used JK and a JL Rubicon available of equal mileage and price (let's call them both 2018, early and late model year), which one would you go for? (putting aside that your own mods that you would personally want to transfer over - let's say that you didn't have any of them and you were starting from scratch)? Thank you so much!
@Eric Kratzer I'm not a huge fan of buying the first year of anything.. so I don't think I'd get a 2018 JL, I'd rather a 2019 or 2020 (but of course that will be more money).
At one point I almost got a 2012 JK (first year of the 3.6 V6).. but went with a 2011 instead so I could have the last year of the old engine. That turned out to be an excellent choice when virtually all the 2012s had head problems.
@@TheRoadChoseMe Smart and another excellent point! Thank you again Dan!
Great video Dan. Reliability, safety, and comfort are what is needed on those long trips. I’d argue for a modern rig for the big expeditions, but certainly wouldn’t mind and old CJ-5 to cruise around town or hit the mountains for a day.
Well I generally agree with you. In my opinion though it comes down to reliability of one specific vehicle. The Land Rovers don't have the reputation to be the best in reliability, that maybe one reason your example broke down so often. Thanks Dan
I think it all comes down to budget. My budget does not have the $100k available for a new land cruiser. I would say, if you setup a $10,000 vehicle budget, you could pick up an older (late 90's to 00's) Pajero, Grand Cherokee, Terracan, Cherokee, Jackeroo, etc, have the important bits upgrades (suspension, radiator, alternator, sensors) and still have money left for overlanding gear. Maybe not the rooftop tent though. There is nothing wrong with turn of the century vehicles. And I would say, in far off places, any mechanic worth his salt could diagnose most issues. On newer ones, better hope the garage has the correct scanner and diagnostic machines.
Oh, I agree entirely. And I wasn't suggesting you spend $100k on a vehicle.
The Jeep I drove around Africa was 5 years old when I set out, and it cost me $18k. I think most people would still call it "new" (or at least newer) because it has all the safety features, etc.
@@TheRoadChoseMe What mileage did it have when you purchased it?
Great info as usual Dan.
Spot on thank you for the video 😎👍
I can't agree more.
As a product design engineer who has worked in automotive, mechanical, and electrical products, I am constantly looking at projects we worked on 5 or 7 years ago like it was the "olden days". There were such less strict requirements, so many less process controls, so much worse performing manufacturing companies, the list goes on. Progress for quality is consistently being made in the background and people are extremely terrible at noticing it due to long timespans (years), nostalgia and not noticing "what is missing".
A broken window motor is a great example of this. Either your window motor breaks, or it doesn't. But a window motor not breaking is the norm, and breaking is a problem.
If you own a car for 10 years and you never have to replace the window motor that isn't a "very reliable design" it is just considered normal. No praise, no surprise. Therefore people just don't notice reliability. They only notice unreliability. So it is extremely difficult to compare your reliability unless you are comparing to others or their experiences.
People also don't have access to the kind of "internal only" engineering data that big companies do.
Have you ever seen a graph of number of transmission replacements per 100,000 cars per 100,000 miles graphed against model year?
No, because that is an extremely secretive statistic that Jeep/whoever would keep under wraps.
But I promise you that those are exactly the kinds of graphs that people like me are reviewing and we are fighting for.
My "worth" I derive from work, about doing a good job, is tied to whether or not I am making a great product. Whether or not all my car buddies can be stoked about the cool stuff we work on. Proud designers want to leave a legacy of making things better, breaking records, pushing boundaries, having "million mile (car)" articles written about our projects.
I think Dan did a great job highlighting his first hand experience with these details and I think it was a good way to articulate exactly why my best travel vehicle is as new as is reasonable within my budget, as low of miles as is reasonable within my budget, and as standard or proven as is reasonable.
Awesome subject, well explained, thanks for the video
Tienes que ponderar el precio de compra de un vehículo nuevo y tienes que ponderar también el costo de las reparaciones (mucho más caras en vehículos nuevos) y por otro lado tienes que mirar que los vehículos nuevo tienen una vida útil menor (obsolescencia programada) creo que a corto y medio plazo tienes razón un vehículo nuevo es mejor, pero cuando pasas de las 100mil millas o los 10 ó 15 años ya no es lo mismo
What about the initial outlay cost, a new V8 land cruiser is basically the cost of a house in Western Australia, whereas a 60/80series or a old county Land Rover can be bad for 10k...
Of course that's a big factor.
The Jeep I drove from Alaska to Argentina was 9 years old and cost $5k.
The Jeep I drove all the way around Africa was 5 years old and cost $18k.
I like the topic and you have raised some interesting points. However, I do think your examples have been a bit selective there.
- Some people do buy a modern vehicle and have no problems for 100,000 miles. Most don't as evidenced by any annual list of warranty faults by unit sold for each make, and that's mostly in on-road conditions. Also good luck with warranty claims in Africa on your foreign specification car.
- Modern Land Cruiser V8's *are* very reliable. However I would bet if they were provided by Toyota for an expedition, Toyota engineers are going to be poring over that vehicle especially carefully before delivery to prevent any embarrassment. Most people simply don't have the budget for a new Land Cruiser V8 anyway. Imagine the Carnet bond value on that!
- A sensibly prepped largely standard older vehicle *should* be reliable. The problem is the scale of options which are lumped into one "old 4x4 overlander" group. At one end of the scale there are people who spend the price of a new vehicle prepping and modifying an old one. That makes no sense at all. At the other end of the scale is the people who buy a used 80's or 90's 4x4, ship it with no prep and it ends in tears. Generally these are the extremes we hear about online as they make the best stories. There is probably middle ground there that should be both cost effective and reliable.
- It also sounds like your mate Ed with the Land Rover either wasn't much of a mechanic or was using some of the cheap rubbish substandard parts that are going around for them now. (Hint: anything for a Land Rover in a blue box is crap!)
I guess for me, part of it is also the bond you form with an older vehicle, the love hate relationship that makes the trip more interesting. But on the comfort and safety factors, you are entirely correct.
You made me chuckle about crumple zones and Defenders, they actually don't have any. At least they have a collapsible steering column which my Series III doesn't! I admit, I'm somewhat of a masochist and I drive my 40 year old Land Rover everywhere, from going to the shops to driving the width of Africa, but even I wouldn't advise an older vehicle for overland travel. Even when fully restored with new, high quality parts, a reconditioned engine, gearbox and cooling system, they are inherently less reliable than modern vehicles, simply because they are older designs. For much the same reason, the service intervals are by necessity much shorter - you don't grease prop-shafts and steering linkages every 3,000 miles (5,000 km) anymore do you?
In my experience, African mechanics know far more about modern vehicles than we give them credit for. In fact, a lot of the younger ones have never seen carburettors and points-type ignition systems anymore, let alone fixed them. In fact, getting parts for these older vehicles can be a pain in the UK, let alone Africa. My advice would be buy the best vehicle you can afford, hopefully a vehicle you are familiar with as that is a help. Toyota have by far the biggest global presence (although the UK is an exception) and just for the ease of local know-how and being able to source parts on the road, and they are worth the extra money. Series Land Rovers can work, because there are many still running from when they were locally assembled from knock-down kits, and despite needing constant fettling, can be made reasonably reliable for what they are, although quite why they thought just three 35 amp fuses for the whole car was a good idea!
It is what it is, and unless you really love a particular vehicle or just as deranged and lacking in sense as myself, I really wouldn't recommend it. Even so, I'd buy a Land Cruiser 70 Series if I could get one here in the UK (never officially sold here though, so I may have to buy one in Africa). Buy the best you can afford, and remember that it's a compromise between spending the money on the vehicle, your trip and, sometimes, the dreaded carnet!
If I had the money the only overlander I would buy is a modern Toyota 70 series or 4x4 pickup, maybe a Suzuki (Grand Vitara). In Ecuador I've seen too many modern Jeeps (Wrangler's and Rubicons) and Defenders transported on platforms to a specialized shop because they broke down probably from a damaged sensor.... programmed obsolescence and too many computerized electronics is not a reliable factor in modern 4x4's, plus they can only be fixed at the stealership! Yes, new with less than 100thousand kms is likely to be under warranty and shouldn't give any problems. But apart from safety features which are a plus on modern vehicles, I'd rather get me any late 80's - 90's Toyota or similar...and I'd spend my money on fixing everything like new before venturing out into the world. The motto is to keep it simple and uncomplicated.
grumph, i don‘t like it, but there is something true about it.
As usual, Dan is correct but I still cant let go of the picture in my imagination where I take my fully restored (mechanically) 67 Nissan Patrol on an epic overland trip (probably stuffed with money to pay for the gas).
I'm no stranger to long distance drives in old crap.
In 2015, my buddy and I "restored" a 67 Volvo Amazon to retrace many of the original routes of the Shell 4000 (4000 mile rally across Canada on some of the toughest roads in the country - those rallies pre-dated many parts of the paved Trans Canada highway). We connected a few of these routes together to take us from Edmonton to Vancouver and then all the way to Halifax - mostly on dirt and gravel - and ended up covering 9,000 km in 10 days that included three days break in the middle.
But, with that experience driving old vehicles extremely long distances and knowing I can fix what breaks, Dan's argument remains rock solid.
(Google "Canada Shell 4000" for some cool 😎 info and pictures of one of the world's toughest and most popular rallies of the time. )
Hear hear... At last! Sense!!!!
Sounds like Ed should have rebuilt his Land Rover BEFORE he went on the trip instead of during the trip.
He did. Both !
Why not do a frame off resto on an older Defender. Replace everything.
Thanks for your time, knowledge and experience. What might be a reasonable aged Rubicon to pick up ?
Mine was 5 years old when I started my trip and is 10 years old now. It's just starting to show some signs of age, and I'd want to do some more major stuff before setting out for another 50,000 mile + expedition.
So I'd say aim for something around 5 years old with maybe 60,000 miles and you should be great for another 5+ years and 140,000+ miles
@@TheRoadChoseMe Awesome Thanks that should save me a few bucks for driving a new one off the lot Cheers
Ed would be on the ground even if he had a new Defender
So sorry but with my Td5 Defender I had only one brake down in 10 years time. 🍻
I think this is true, except for new Land Rovers. They are as unreliable as 40 year old land Rovers. See tfloffroad's recent saga with the new Defender. The thing is, a newish vehicle will cost a lot more than a worn out 40 year old land cruiser. If you can score a decent old land cruiser you can invest $15,000 to refresh everything that wears out and it will be reliable again, and still in total not more expensive than a newer vehicle. You can also add sound deadening. Plus then it will have a higher resale value afterwards than the newer vehicle which will have depreciated because its complexity means it will hold its value less. The old land cruisers will just keep going decade after decade long after the recent electronic vehicles aren't worth maintaining anymore once their parts start failing and are unreliable. It's a practical exercise to go through an old land cruiser and refresh everything; but not at all practical to do the same in 20 years for a modern vehicle from today. So as long as the land cruiser doesn't rust out it will hold its value "indefinitely". You do make a good point about safety. I wonder how hard it is to add airbags to an old vehicle. For that reason I don't think I'd take one on a world tour due to the increased risk of head-ons. But for exploring remote areas of BC and Canada it would be OK because there is much less chance of a head-on.
I have to respectfully disagree with you. Our current LR3 has 242,000 kms on it. I have replaced some bushings, 2 sets of brakes, 1 CV axle. I did all the belts hoses and water pump as preventative maintenance. It gets used hard, heavily loaded in Northern Canada. Our sons Range Rover HSE has 236,000 km, and has only needed a crank sensor.
I think there might be a difference between older vehicles and older vehicles that have been maintained let alone prepared for such an adventure. When you are talking about radiators/ alternators and stuff like that needing to be replaced I dont see anybody in their right mind that would consider making such a journey not replacing those things before they start.
I understand what you're saying, but remember that tons of folks are on tight budgets, so replacing parts that "seem fine" is low on the priority list!
Hi Dan,
Got a question for you that Im wondering if you have any knowledge on based on the in depth and practical research youve done and the talking to hundreds of travelers on the road.
What actually has the most effect on MPG in your opinion in order of ranking. That way I know what to prioritize, I know you cant get the best of all worlds, but trying to compromise best I can.
Between Offset, tire width, unsprung weight, tire tread.
I knwo they all matter, but the more research I do, it seems that offset is under-rated as a major culprit of MPG decrease. Even when we aren't speaking to extreme negative offset setups. But compared to stock wheels which are typically +10 to +25 offset on narrow wheels like 7" or 7.5" even a 17x8 or 17x8.5 at 0mm is 0.8 to 1.2" more stance. Would love to get your feedback. Right now I have skinny tires and lightweight wheel ready to go up on my rig but the stance is a bit wide. 17x8 -10 and I am reconsidering. Its almost impossible to find a lightweight wheel with near factory offset.
If you have an expensive new vehicle, you will have to pay more for the Carnet. I’ve never driven overland but I assume the Carnet bond is expensive.
Very true, and a very important consideration. So far I've avoided that by not needing a carnet, but it's going to be a problem eventually.
It seems that a new or couple years old 70 series Landcruiser would be the best choice for such long expeditions. And that is a vehicle you definitely can run underweight. The biggest problem is that they are still very expensive and hard to get in most countries.
Your last sentence really defines why they are in fact not a good choice.
The vehicle you can't have is not a good vehicle.
@@TheRoadChoseMe True.
25 year rule in the US. Just have to deal with RHD
@@bindingcurve I believe there is a Middle East version that is LHD.
@@kg0173 but those are hard to come by for the US and have a nasty price tag to match. The JDM stuff is cheaper and lower mileage (and in just nice condition)
Materials in general are better. Tires are way way way better than even the early 2000s.
Good lord, I hope you don't have 20 year old tires on the car. But it is kind of funny, the debates the guys who drive the older cars have about modern oil. Rust is a nightmare for older vehicles.
@@bindingcurve No, I’ve got new tires! I’ve had far fewer problems with tires for my sedans in the past 10 years than I used to have - tire quality in my experience seems to have improved. Your own experience might be different. Cheers.
@@wpherigo1 Nope, they have gotten better. So many patches and plugs back in the 90s. Even the 2000s
As I've come to expe t from your videos a wonderful well reasoned argument. However this is one factor I'm a little disappointed you dudnt consider and that is price. Depending on the type and age of vechical older models can be cheaper and as you say the less you spend preparing the longer your on the road for.
Some Great points I think! My guess is like youve demonstrated personally, is to get the newest vehicle you can afford with the proper capability for what your going to be doing that has tried and true systems reliability. Oh and I feel like the Land Cruiser is a bit of a mix like the jeep. It seems to be a combination of old and new tech. Newer electronics but still old school tech like solid axles and body on frame. None of newer tech air suspension or unibody construction.
I am not really sure if agree with "newer vehicle are designed better because of computer aided design". Often older constructions are less "optimised". They just used more material when they were not sure if it can handle the load.
Yep. You surprised me on that one. Oh I totally agree with you. But I expected you would say old.
And a Land Rover Discovery? Hahaha. Those things aren't made to drive around the block much less a continent! They probably have the worst track record for dependability out there. Just the thought of owning something made by a company called TATA motors makes me a little nauseous! Hahaha.