As many have mentioned, I am very fortunate to have a 30.5" draw length and it certainly makes things easy for me when it comes to finding an arrow setup that is both fast and heavy. It's not reasonable for me to expect that everyone can easily create a heavy arrow that flies in that optimal speed range, so I will be making a video soon to address this and give some tips that are more applicable to those shorter draw folk. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to work our draw length up like we can with draw weight! Leigh
As a target archer this video is really helpful. I am more on the heavy side of the arrow; apart from the higher kinetic energy, bigger momentum, and better penetration in the wind, I found that my bow reacts better with heavier arrows. Less noise, less vibration, more comfortable experience.
You don't need a heavy arrow to have high FOC. I use the Victory RIP XV. My current arrow is 356 grains with 22.5% FOC. Arrow speed is 320 fps. I started with a 415 grain arrow with 18% FOC, using a black eagle X-impact. When I noticed my arrow was to the fletching in the dirt behind the deer after I blew through it, I switch to the XVs, 372 grains with 24.5% FOC and has similar results. So I again went lighter. I also want to add, I ALWAYS bare shaft tune my arrow. They are hitting dead straight at 20 yards with no fletching. Also, the first two deer was with a 2.5" swhacker broadhead. The 3rd deer with the lightest arrow was a SWAT 4 blade mechanical broadhead. String jumping is because the deer is alert. I've never had a deer jump my string. Every deer I've shot has never knew I was there. I have been busted by a big mama doe because she looked up and just knew something wasn't right and blew. But I also wait to shoot when the deers head is up. Also, at the end of the day, why are we even debating? Heavy arrows have also worked and will always work. But with modern compound bows, you can use a 350 grain arrow with 70lbs and as long as the arrow and bow is turned, it won't matter on whitetail. FOC, Tune, Practice.
One of the issues I found over the years, was the changes in bows, hatchet cams handled weight fairly well, solocams didn't, the last cams I used were Hoyt cam and 1/2 from about 2005, they handled heavy arrows again, a hair better than the hatchet cams. I am good for 30.5-31" draw, last couple of bows had 30" cams, used a D loop with them to adjust length. Shot 5gr @ 316 on one, 324 on another, old hatchet cams were 316fps @ 70lbs. 7 gr still held 275-290 between those three bows, Solocams were lucky to hit 265 tops at 7gr, some were 250's, one was 260's, from bows that would do 310-15 @ 5gr. Only ever shot 100gr points or broadheads, all cut on impact, Bear Razors or Steelforce. All I ever did was add weight tubes to whatever I was shooting for hunting, hunting arrows were sometimes 2413, most often a 3-60ACC, 3d was a 3-60ACC. I used hatchet cams for about 11yrs for hunting, solocams for 3d for about 8-9 yrs, then got the Cam and 1/2 because of axle to axle length, and it would handle the 7gr arrows again. Still have the one hatchet cam bow from 1994 and one Cam & 1/2 from 2005 or 6. Those are just observations from the time frame I shot in. Lots of changes since them, but, I'd be curious what the cams that are good for heavy arrows, are, nowadays.
The ONE aspect that seems to get lost in this light/heavy arrow discussion is that it's not so much "heavy" as it is increased FOC. Sure, you have to add weight up front, which also means bumping up in spine, but depending on your set up, you may not have to be shooting a real heavy arrow. Since I've increased my FOC to about 18%, penetration has increased a great amount and my bow manners and quietness is phenomenal. Really makes shooting fun. Full disclosure.....I don't shoot (at game) past 40.
I totally agree. I forgot to mention the FOC of my arrow is 19 % Not as high as the Ranch Fairy recommends . But I get better penetration than my sons 70 lb 11/2 in longer draw and 30 gr lighter arrow in the same block target. Also I wanted to thank you for knowing and shooting within your limitations.👍👍
Preach. A healthy perspective and a well balanced strategy. The obsession with shooting spears from our bows these days is a tad extreme and really serves one use case. Close range heavy skinned targets. I have a 29.5, 70lb, 495gr, 283fps around 15% foc. It will kill and is my ideal white tail set up. Season almost here!
Years back I used the “ lightspeed “ target arrow with an 80 grain slick trick. Probably didn’t even weigh 300 grains max? Killed many deer mostly with pass thru hits. Nearly every shot was 20-25 yards from 60# 28” bow. Thought speed was the answer. Now I’m at 456 grains with no issues on pass thru hits. This weight and speed works really great as the trajectory just falls only changes about 3” high or low depending on which pin is used. This out to 40 yards. Example, if I use 30 pin at 40 the arrow hits about 4” low. Any closer shots the drop or rise is around 3”. Kinda like “ point blank range” on a rifle. If I use a 425 arrow the gap drops to around 2” except at 40 it’s around 3”.
If somebody starts testing for string jump they will find a direct correlation between the decibels of sound and distance from the animal directly affect how much string jumping there is which means lighter Arrow flies faster but the bow is louder and a heavier Arrow flies slower and creates less sound
Great job 👍 I am fairly new to bow hunting. But have been a rifle hunter and reloading for over 45 years. And what you said is very true about speed and accuracy. The trick is to find the best speed for accuracy and penetration. I have learned with archery it really matters on the type of broadheads you use I shoot fixed blades And you are right on the mark of 260to 285 for 3 and 4 blades. My set up is 65 lbs at 28 in. 150 gr head 463 gr arrow at 264 fps. Out to 40 yards nice tight groups. After that group starts to widen. But still in a 4in group at 60. I am confident out to 40 on whitetail and 60 for Elk and Moose. I can’t speak for the expandable heads because I don’t think they are a good choice for hunting. Just to many moving parts to fail. The guy that I get my bows and equipment from. He shoots both expandable and fixed blades He has also found the 280 to 285 is best for fixed blades. Well i rambled on enough. Lol Oh I hunt with 3 different heads 150 solid tooth of the arrow. 150 Bishop two blade 150 Wasp 4 blade. Believe it or not they all hit at the same point of impact. Cheers
Another great video both polite and respectful and that will win the day and bring the community closer. The "Ranch Fairy" and the Ashby studies are often times misquoted and misrepresented. "Shoot the heaviest arrow possible with the trajectory you can live with" or something like that is what Ashby says in his literature. I'm also hearing Fowler say about 525 to 550 is where most folks should live. The super heavy arrow thing is about last on the list and only matters if you hit a heavy bone. Structural integrity and perfect arrow flight are top of the list. But people get it twisted.
Thank you so much for the great feedback! I would agree that perfect arrow flight, and accuracy will trump any decision you have made on arrow weight! Thanks so much for watching!
Seems very reasonable. Would the characteristics of the arrow (length, balance, shaft diameter, fletch configuration, etc.) influence the optimal speed range for an arrow in the same way the characteristics of a bullet affect its ballistics? Do short arrows have an advantage over long (or vice versa) in terms of tolerating high speeds? Interesting stuff.
This is a great question! Generally shorter arrow fly better, at least within the range of compound archery. As a rule of thumb, I generally start an arrow build with the arrow being cut to the center of my riser at full draw. Then, using the Archers Advantage spine matching system, I’ll play around up to 1/2” increase or decrease in length until I find the length that spine matches well. In terms of fletch configuration, 4 fletch will always fly better than 3… especially at long range. Because of the added vane, there is an increase in drag so the arrows will slow down faster. It’s a negligible change though, unless you have a steep offset on your vanes.
All the things you mention have an affect; Length should be as short as your draw length and bow riser allow, since extra length reduces stiffness proportionally, and causes reduced accuracy through shaft flexing. Spine affects this similarly and spine alignment also contributes to repeatable accuracy. Balance is important because higher front of center balance point increases leverage of the fletching on the arrow center of mass, and causes it to fly straighter. 15% to 20% of mass FOC is usually considered good. Shaft diameter has little effect in flight apart from issues related to spine stiffness, though it does affect air resistance a little, but a narrower arrow of appropriate spine has a big benefit for penetration when the arrow is flying through meat, due to dramatic resistance decrease. Fletch config has significant effects but it can be complicated. For example a quad fletch is far more sensitive to accuracy of fletching and a small fletching inaccuracy will cause a lot of flight inaccuracy, whereas triple fletch is more forgiving of minor defects, but is more noisy since each vein has more load on it, for a similar vein size. A lot of animals jumping the shot gets blamed on bow noise, but to be frank, most bows are sufficiently quiet now but arrows are often noisy. When shooting at game on a feeder with a fixed camera set up, it's surprising how far ahead you can hear the arrow coming, and often the game's jump matches the arrow noise, not the sound of the bow. However, the better accuracy of 3 fletch still makes it better, and having the leverage of a high front of center mass allows a low profile quieter 3 fletch to keep the arrow oscillation under control and flying true, at higher speed or at greater overall weight.
An amazing topic, thank you. SO MUCH BS out there.... Dr Randy Ulmer and Joe Bell both found the 280fps range to be optimal for most arrows and set ups... That being said, most guys who come into the pro shop I work at think they are shooting IBO of 335 fps or so... In reality, with their 28" +/- set up, they will be lucky to shoot 260 fps and if they go all "ranch fairy", it will be much less... We have found on all the flagship bows, about a 10fps difference per HALF inch of draw. So you at 30.5 and me at 29" - I am already 30fps less than you. In order for my Hoyt RX 7 at 65# and 29" to yield that perfect 280s fps, I have a Victory built with some Firenock parts that gets me about 400 gr total. If I push up into the mid 440-450 gr total, I am down to the 260fps range.... Thank you for opening this up again. SO MUCH BS out there....
Well different chronographs will give you different speeds.!! It also depends on if you run 3 or 4 and short or long fletches. Fletching will slow down your arrows speed. Yes a lot of BS on this subject. I listen to both sides and take what makes sense to me and come up with a happy medium. Ito started with a 525 plus gr And now shoot a 463 gr Flatter flight and still great penetration. But shot placement is Still The Key.!!!!
I push a 365 gr Easton Hexx at 330 fps from a Bowtech insanity. I use a 100 grain rage 3 blade broadhead. I hunt out west for mule deer and elk and have yet to not kill what I hit. I shot a 300 inch bull at 87 yds (perfect conditions) and had a complete pass through. Time in flight is more of an issue than energy out west. I get about 88lb/ft which is plenty. just a plug for light and fast.
The most important thing is to use what works best for YOU! Don't fix what isn't broken, but we sure appreciate and respect that you are out there taking in other opinions! Thank you for the reply!
I wish I had the problem of adding weight to get my speed down. With a 27 inch draw length, I shoot a pretty light arrow (430 gr) to get to that 270-280 mark. That’s why I shoot a cut on contact head though.
I have a 29 inch draw and i use cut on contact broadheads. At 64# and i shoot Easton axis 5mm 340 spine 420 grains. I am getting awesome speed out of my V3X 29. 281 fps.
Brother I shoot a long bow with 600 grain arrows at 180 fps and have harvested many deer so I think that the speed game isn’t all that it’s about reading the animals body language before you shoot
What weight long bow? I shoot a 50lb recurve and only get about 160fps out my 460gr arrows. It's an old Sage clone, 62 AMO length non fast flight compatible. In fairness my 460gr arrows have just over 20 percent FOC, but you're still generating like 65 percent more energy than I am so I'm curious
This is true! This video is certainly intended for the compound crowd, but I have endless respect for the traditional guys! Keep doing what you are doing!!
Mine is like the 3rd bowl of porridge... just right! 😂 Goldtip pro hunter 300. 30.5" with 100gr brass insert. 100 grain Slick Trick Magnum. Total weight 523.41gr.
I agree with you i have been shooting fixed blade broadheads and i try and stay around 280 fps .I shoot only 60lbs and with a 420 grain arrow and t puts me at 275 to 280 fps.I think for whitetails you really dont need extra heavy arrow weight.There is no perfect arrow weight it boils down to what works for you and what you are hunting.
I shoot at 27.5 inches of draw length, even though my measured draw length is 28.4 inches. I shoot the shorter length because my shooting is much better at 27.5 than it is at 28 or 28.5 inches. I lose some speed but my accuracy is too good to trade for 10-20 fps.
What is your arrow setup with the 27.5” draw? That’s what I shoot as well and I am at 265 fps with a total arrow weight of 480 grains. Just curious what other are going with in similar draw lengths.
@@jelrod1221 I shoot a Victory VAP Elite .166 in 300 spine with the 90-grain outserts. The arrows weight around 460 grains. My earlier bow shot the same arrow around 235 fps, but the bow was super quiet. In 2019, I stopped a buck with a bleat, he looked directly at me in the stand but didn't move until the arrow passed through him.
Always love when I come across fellow 27.5ers. I shoot a Phase4 at 75lbs with 493 grain Easton 5mm Axis arrows (150 upfront - 100 gr fixed blade broadhead, 25 gr insert, 25 gr collar - with AAE Max Hunter vanes and 20ish gr nockturnals in the back). Just got my bow tuned and chrono’d it 275 fps. If I take the nockturnal out and shoot regular nocks (AAE ip5 nocks) the total arrow weight drops from 493 gr to 473 gr and it chronos at around 278ish fps. I’ve been very happy with the setup, especially after the most recent tune. Have a love/hate relationship with the lighted nocks, but that’s for another post haha. Toying with the idea of changing out the insert and collar to titanium components which would save me another 25 gr. and put my total arrow weight around 450 gr total arrow weight without a lighted nock (470ish with a nockturnal). Shooting the 450 gr arrow would likely put me around that coveted 285ish fps speed, but I’m not sure if it’s actually worth the hassle of re-tuning everything. Erring on the side of no change…big believer in tinkering, but sometimes it can be counterproductive. Hope this info is helpful!
@@kchak88 You definitely have your gear down to a science. I practiced with lighted nocks one year and did not achieve the same accuracy as with standard nocks - so I gave them to my brother. My arrows have a yellow nock that shows up well against the deer and I primarily hunt mornings, so low-light shooting isn't an issue for me unless the deer appears right at first light. Good luck this fall
Shoot yeah man you're blessed with optimum specs you can shoot any arrow you want anyway you want and it will tune and fly… the men and ladies that have it tough are those that have that sub 28 inch draw at average poundage looking for that happy medium. Broadhead choice becomes sometimes critical at that point imo bravo for getting off that topic when you did I think you were right at the point of… Here we go lol🏹
This is a really good point, and something that I haven't thought about enough. Having a 30.5" draw length HAS made is so that I've never had an issue coming up with a heavy and fast arrow. I will plan to do a video on this soon! Thank you for the input and for watching our video!
Why doesn't somebody try and find a way to test how much sound is coming from the bow that is CAUSING string jump... a heavier Arrow causes your bow to shoot quieter so couldn't that also reduce the amount of string jumping
This is a good point to talk about! The reality is that an animals senses are so incredibly hypersensitive to their surroundings that it doesn’t matter how much noise a bow makes, it’s the fact that it makes noise at all that causes string jumping. If you’ve ever watched a whitetail feeding, you’ve probably seen them ‘snap’ at the sound of a stick breaking, whether it’s a squirrel, another deer, or just the wind. The deer doesn’t care. That type of noise indicates danger, and unfortunately there is no way to make a bow silent enough that a deer won’t hear it! Thanks for watching and commenting!
I am more of a Johnny-come-lately on this YT site maybe missed it but… so aside from the videos that I've seen with your dad do you have a bio video mixed in, somewhere that I couldn't find? I've been shooting to TOTA broadhead since I guess 2017-ish, didn't pay much attention to the UA-cam side of things in fact don't even know when this channel started so my question is, is Luke still the company, who are you in that I don't remember you from the old days of staff or anything like that obviously year rather young by comparison as long tooth guys and I see that you obviously have real world experience with large game and knowledge as well. Just wondering how this worked out. I can definitely appreciate you putting yourself out there especially if you want to jump in to the ranch fairy world😂🏹
Good video. But I know from multiple testing and experience, there’s not a significant difference in the two to be honest. It’s all personal preference at the end of the day regardless.
For the most part I would agree, but there are many cases when guys go extremely light and fast or extremely heavy and slow. As with anything in life, there are extreme ends of any spectrum and some point in the middle ground is usually best!
I hear what you're saying, and agree balance is important. I just don't understand what indicates optimal speed for flight is 280ish FPS ? There is nothing aerodynamically that is different between 200 FPS and 400FPS ? Remove penetration and trajectory flatness from the equation....why would 280FPS group better than 310FPS ? I would think any difference would be a spine or tuning issue (I e solvable)....not an aerodynamics issue ?
The 280 range is simply very forgiving especially when we talk about shooting fixed blades. There is a reason you don't see big fixed blades on many 450 fps + crossbow setups - the blades start to take over and it just doesn't work. I myself am pushing just shy of 300 fps out of my setup with zero issues, but it takes a level of perfection to achieve that. Most guys won't have issues getting any fixed blades to fly (as long as there isn't a spine issue) up to that 270-280 range, but it takes a perfect setup to start to push those limits. Field points handle any speeds quite well, but that isn't what is important. You can also look at bullets for example. If ballisticaly all speeds were the same, then all cartridge makers would be trying to get 6,000fps rounds. When building a new cartridge for a rifle, they slowly add powder and test groupings until they find that a certain speed has caused the grouping to get bigger. They are trying to find the optimal speed at which the bullet wants to fly. It is the same in arrows for the most part, we just don't have the level of precision to map things out with like the rifle guys do. Thanks always for the support and for commenting!
@@toothofthearrowbroadheads bullets are also aerodynamically unstable, where's arrows are stable. Up the twist rate up on the rifle, and it could likely tolerate the speed, until the point of spinning the jackets off! Re broad heads. .. I see your point now. Also, good for you for responding to a comment a year after video was published! You've got yourself a new fan
@@44bgood Thank you! Always happy to chat about this stuff and explore ideas, I will never say that I am right about everything and love to hear others thoughts and challenges!
The answer is yes both. You shouldn’t only be shooting one do all arrow. Speed 100%! 3D, indoor, thin skinned animals, distance, light boned. Heavy 100% larger game, wind, heavy skinned or coats on game. BUILD THE RIGHT BULLET FOR YOUR BOW. I don’t rabbit hunt with a 30-06 and I don’t moose hunt with a 22lr.
70 pounds and 30.5 draw. That's like top 10 percentile. 280fps is more than sufficient. 250 is plenty within 30. Anyway all deer are different and can jump any bow under the right conditions.
Yes I am certainly lucky with my specs! We have a video coming out soon addressing ideal setups for those who can’t achieve speeds of 280 just due to body specs. Thanks a lot for watching!
Accuracy over rides everything. I want the most accurate arrow setup for me and my bow that I can find. I do care about weight and speed but I will1 take whatever weight at whatever speed that is the most accurate.
I want to agree with you on certain things but you make some points both good and bad. Yes arrow velocity is important, so is penetration. 420-460g is not a light projectile.. you can still get 16% foc with that weight and It's going to its job if you do your job. Arrows do have a sweet spot speed wise, especially fixed blade heads yes this is true. But your analogy about bullets is dopey :(.. the things that affect the accuracy of a bullet are much much more entailed than the dynamics of arrow flight. IE: power type, barrel type, crimp amount and type/ OAL / temperature sensitive loads the list is endless when it comes to vertical stringing with bullets. Build a quality arrow that's moving 260-280fps with a fixed blade. Feel free to shoot your expanding heads at 300+ fps if you want IMO.
It was just a basic analogy suggesting that all projectiles have an optimal speed at which they are designed to fly, and this is true of bullets too! Hope you enjoyed the video and I appreciate you watching!
I still shoot a 480 spine easton 29 in weight is 355 on arrow and fixed broadhead. 27 draw at 50 lb with a 2012 bear legion. Still want go over 25 yard for kill or id go back to rifle
I'm so confused why people are so obsessed with pass-throughs. If you put those broad heads into the heart or lungs, the animal will die. Look at the native American tribs. their bows didn't get pass throughs, but they killed Buffalo with them. If it is the blood trails, we are worried about up your tracking game. If you put a big enough hole in the chest cavity/ thorax, it will let air in, and the lungs collaps.
They certainly will die very quickly with any shot into the chest regardless of a pass through, but I have hunted some pretty thick country in Northern Alberta, Alaska, and Mexico where you can just about walk right over the animal and not see them if you don’t have blood. Getting a pass through also means you’ve done more cutting and will generally tend to a quicker kill. Thanks for watching and sharing your insights!
270fps..? compounds perhaps.. what about recurve or trad shooters..? they barely make 200fps+/- even wif 60lbs bows.. 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️ ur analysis is sound, but it doesn't apply across the board.. 🙏🏻
You're right, this video is specifically for compound archery and this would not be a good rule of thumb for trad guys! Wouldn't it be nice if we could get trad bows shooting 260+ though!
As many have mentioned, I am very fortunate to have a 30.5" draw length and it certainly makes things easy for me when it comes to finding an arrow setup that is both fast and heavy. It's not reasonable for me to expect that everyone can easily create a heavy arrow that flies in that optimal speed range, so I will be making a video soon to address this and give some tips that are more applicable to those shorter draw folk. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to work our draw length up like we can with draw weight!
Leigh
As a target archer this video is really helpful.
I am more on the heavy side of the arrow; apart from the higher kinetic energy, bigger momentum, and better penetration in the wind, I found that my bow reacts better with heavier arrows. Less noise, less vibration, more comfortable experience.
You don't need a heavy arrow to have high FOC. I use the Victory RIP XV. My current arrow is 356 grains with 22.5% FOC. Arrow speed is 320 fps. I started with a 415 grain arrow with 18% FOC, using a black eagle X-impact. When I noticed my arrow was to the fletching in the dirt behind the deer after I blew through it, I switch to the XVs, 372 grains with 24.5% FOC and has similar results. So I again went lighter. I also want to add, I ALWAYS bare shaft tune my arrow. They are hitting dead straight at 20 yards with no fletching. Also, the first two deer was with a 2.5" swhacker broadhead. The 3rd deer with the lightest arrow was a SWAT 4 blade mechanical broadhead.
String jumping is because the deer is alert. I've never had a deer jump my string. Every deer I've shot has never knew I was there. I have been busted by a big mama doe because she looked up and just knew something wasn't right and blew. But I also wait to shoot when the deers head is up.
Also, at the end of the day, why are we even debating? Heavy arrows have also worked and will always work. But with modern compound bows, you can use a 350 grain arrow with 70lbs and as long as the arrow and bow is turned, it won't matter on whitetail.
FOC, Tune, Practice.
Thanks for the take and for watching!
How is a 24 foc possible that light? Arrow super thin?
@km6731 Combination of the shaft weight, fletching I use, nocks, insert/outsert and broadhead. You want the complete setup?
One of the issues I found over the years, was the changes in bows, hatchet cams handled weight fairly well, solocams didn't, the last cams I used were Hoyt cam and 1/2 from about 2005, they handled heavy arrows again, a hair better than the hatchet cams. I am good for 30.5-31" draw, last couple of bows had 30" cams, used a D loop with them to adjust length. Shot 5gr @ 316 on one, 324 on another, old hatchet cams were 316fps @ 70lbs. 7 gr still held 275-290 between those three bows, Solocams were lucky to hit 265 tops at 7gr, some were 250's, one was 260's, from bows that would do 310-15 @ 5gr. Only ever shot 100gr points or broadheads, all cut on impact, Bear Razors or Steelforce. All I ever did was add weight tubes to whatever I was shooting for hunting, hunting arrows were sometimes 2413, most often a 3-60ACC, 3d was a 3-60ACC. I used hatchet cams for about 11yrs for hunting, solocams for 3d for about 8-9 yrs, then got the Cam and 1/2 because of axle to axle length, and it would handle the 7gr arrows again. Still have the one hatchet cam bow from 1994 and one Cam & 1/2 from 2005 or 6. Those are just observations from the time frame I shot in. Lots of changes since them, but, I'd be curious what the cams that are good for heavy arrows, are, nowadays.
Really interesting take! Thanks for the reply and for taking the time to watch our videos!
The ONE aspect that seems to get lost in this light/heavy arrow discussion is that it's not so much "heavy" as it is increased FOC. Sure, you have to add weight up front, which also means bumping up in spine, but depending on your set up, you may not have to be shooting a real heavy arrow. Since I've increased my FOC to about 18%, penetration has increased a great amount and my bow manners and quietness is phenomenal. Really makes shooting fun. Full disclosure.....I don't shoot (at game) past 40.
I totally agree.
I forgot to mention the FOC of my arrow is 19 %
Not as high as the Ranch Fairy recommends .
But I get better penetration than my sons 70 lb 11/2 in longer draw and 30 gr lighter arrow in the same block target.
Also I wanted to thank you for knowing and shooting within your limitations.👍👍
Great take! Thank you for watching!
Preach. A healthy perspective and a well balanced strategy. The obsession with shooting spears from our bows these days is a tad extreme and really serves one use case. Close range heavy skinned targets. I have a 29.5, 70lb, 495gr, 283fps around 15% foc. It will kill and is my ideal white tail set up.
Season almost here!
Thank you for watching! You have a very balanced setup, much like mine! Hope to see some big dead deer this season!
Moderation in all things is usually the best answer.
We agree!
Years back I used the “ lightspeed “ target arrow with an 80 grain slick trick. Probably didn’t even weigh 300 grains max? Killed many deer mostly with pass thru hits. Nearly every shot was 20-25 yards from 60# 28” bow. Thought speed was the answer. Now I’m at 456 grains with no issues on pass thru hits. This weight and speed works really great as the trajectory just falls only changes about 3” high or low depending on which pin is used. This out to 40 yards. Example, if I use 30 pin at 40 the arrow hits about 4” low. Any closer shots the drop or rise is around 3”. Kinda like “ point blank range” on a rifle. If I use a 425 arrow the gap drops to around 2” except at 40 it’s around 3”.
It's all about finding a balance! I believe that going too far in either direction is harmful. Thanks for the reply!
If somebody starts testing for string jump they will find a direct correlation between the decibels of sound and distance from the animal directly affect how much string jumping there is which means lighter Arrow flies faster but the bow is louder and a heavier Arrow flies slower and creates less sound
Thanks for the take!
Great job 👍
I am fairly new to bow hunting. But have been a rifle hunter and reloading for over 45 years.
And what you said is very true about speed and accuracy.
The trick is to find the best speed for accuracy and penetration.
I have learned with archery it really matters on the type of broadheads you use
I shoot fixed blades
And you are right on the mark of 260to 285 for 3 and 4 blades.
My set up is 65 lbs at 28 in. 150 gr head 463 gr arrow at 264 fps. Out to 40 yards nice tight groups. After that group starts to widen.
But still in a 4in group at 60.
I am confident out to 40 on whitetail and 60 for Elk and Moose.
I can’t speak for the expandable heads because I don’t think they are a good choice for hunting.
Just to many moving parts to fail.
The guy that I get my bows and equipment from. He shoots both expandable and fixed blades
He has also found the 280 to 285 is best for fixed blades.
Well i rambled on enough. Lol
Oh I hunt with 3 different heads
150 solid tooth of the arrow. 150 Bishop two blade 150 Wasp 4 blade.
Believe it or not they all hit at the same point of impact.
Cheers
Thanks for the message and for watching our videos! Shoot straight!
No worries
By the way. Great product
Good value
Another great video both polite and respectful and that will win the day and bring the community closer. The "Ranch Fairy" and the Ashby studies are often times misquoted and misrepresented. "Shoot the heaviest arrow possible with the trajectory you can live with" or something like that is what Ashby says in his literature. I'm also hearing Fowler say about 525 to 550 is where most folks should live. The super heavy arrow thing is about last on the list and only matters if you hit a heavy bone. Structural integrity and perfect arrow flight are top of the list. But people get it twisted.
Thank you so much for the great feedback! I would agree that perfect arrow flight, and accuracy will trump any decision you have made on arrow weight! Thanks so much for watching!
Seems very reasonable. Would the characteristics of the arrow (length, balance, shaft diameter, fletch configuration, etc.) influence the optimal speed range for an arrow in the same way the characteristics of a bullet affect its ballistics? Do short arrows have an advantage over long (or vice versa) in terms of tolerating high speeds? Interesting stuff.
This is a great question! Generally shorter arrow fly better, at least within the range of compound archery. As a rule of thumb, I generally start an arrow build with the arrow being cut to the center of my riser at full draw. Then, using the Archers Advantage spine matching system, I’ll play around up to 1/2” increase or decrease in length until I find the length that spine matches well.
In terms of fletch configuration, 4 fletch will always fly better than 3… especially at long range. Because of the added vane, there is an increase in drag so the arrows will slow down faster. It’s a negligible change though, unless you have a steep offset on your vanes.
All the things you mention have an affect; Length should be as short as your draw length and bow riser allow, since extra length reduces stiffness proportionally, and causes reduced accuracy through shaft flexing. Spine affects this similarly and spine alignment also contributes to repeatable accuracy. Balance is important because higher front of center balance point increases leverage of the fletching on the arrow center of mass, and causes it to fly straighter. 15% to 20% of mass FOC is usually considered good. Shaft diameter has little effect in flight apart from issues related to spine stiffness, though it does affect air resistance a little, but a narrower arrow of appropriate spine has a big benefit for penetration when the arrow is flying through meat, due to dramatic resistance decrease. Fletch config has significant effects but it can be complicated. For example a quad fletch is far more sensitive to accuracy of fletching and a small fletching inaccuracy will cause a lot of flight inaccuracy, whereas triple fletch is more forgiving of minor defects, but is more noisy since each vein has more load on it, for a similar vein size. A lot of animals jumping the shot gets blamed on bow noise, but to be frank, most bows are sufficiently quiet now but arrows are often noisy. When shooting at game on a feeder with a fixed camera set up, it's surprising how far ahead you can hear the arrow coming, and often the game's jump matches the arrow noise, not the sound of the bow. However, the better accuracy of 3 fletch still makes it better, and having the leverage of a high front of center mass allows a low profile quieter 3 fletch to keep the arrow oscillation under control and flying true, at higher speed or at greater overall weight.
I killed 3 deer season before last with y’all’s broad heads, they fly like darts! Keep up the good content.
Thanks so much for watching our content and for supporting us!
An amazing topic, thank you. SO MUCH BS out there.... Dr Randy Ulmer and Joe Bell both found the 280fps range to be optimal for most arrows and set ups... That being said, most guys who come into the pro shop I work at think they are shooting IBO of 335 fps or so... In reality, with their 28" +/- set up, they will be lucky to shoot 260 fps and if they go all "ranch fairy", it will be much less... We have found on all the flagship bows, about a 10fps difference per HALF inch of draw. So you at 30.5 and me at 29" - I am already 30fps less than you. In order for my Hoyt RX 7 at 65# and 29" to yield that perfect 280s fps, I have a Victory built with some Firenock parts that gets me about 400 gr total. If I push up into the mid 440-450 gr total, I am down to the 260fps range.... Thank you for opening this up again. SO MUCH BS out there....
Well different chronographs will give you different speeds.!!
It also depends on if you run 3 or 4 and short or long fletches.
Fletching will slow down your arrows speed.
Yes a lot of BS on this subject.
I listen to both sides and take what makes sense to me and come up with a happy medium.
Ito started with a 525 plus gr
And now shoot a 463 gr
Flatter flight and still great penetration.
But shot placement is Still The Key.!!!!
Thanks so much for watching and taking the time to reply!
I push a 365 gr Easton Hexx at 330 fps from a Bowtech insanity. I use a 100 grain rage 3 blade broadhead. I hunt out west for mule deer and elk and have yet to not kill what I hit. I shot a 300 inch bull at 87 yds (perfect conditions) and had a complete pass through. Time in flight is more of an issue than energy out west. I get about 88lb/ft which is plenty. just a plug for light and fast.
@Jeff Adams, when you loose a few animals. Be sure and watch some rachfairy videos, because it will happen.
The most important thing is to use what works best for YOU! Don't fix what isn't broken, but we sure appreciate and respect that you are out there taking in other opinions! Thank you for the reply!
I wish I had the problem of adding weight to get my speed down. With a 27 inch draw length, I shoot a pretty light arrow (430 gr) to get to that 270-280 mark. That’s why I shoot a cut on contact head though.
Draw length hurts a lot, there’s no doubt about that…
I have a 29 inch draw and i use cut on contact broadheads. At 64# and i shoot Easton axis 5mm 340 spine 420 grains. I am getting awesome speed out of my V3X 29. 281 fps.
I agree…I found at 500 grains with my bow is very efficient.
For many setups, the optimal arrow comes in around 500 grains. I am glad you are finding success with a similar system!
Brother I shoot a long bow with 600 grain arrows at 180 fps and have harvested many deer so I think that the speed game isn’t all that it’s about reading the animals body language before you shoot
What weight long bow? I shoot a 50lb recurve and only get about 160fps out my 460gr arrows. It's an old Sage clone, 62 AMO length non fast flight compatible. In fairness my 460gr arrows have just over 20 percent FOC, but you're still generating like 65 percent more energy than I am so I'm curious
I've never had a deer jump my string. The whole time they jump the string is if they are alert.
This is true! This video is certainly intended for the compound crowd, but I have endless respect for the traditional guys! Keep doing what you are doing!!
Mine is like the 3rd bowl of porridge... just right! 😂 Goldtip pro hunter 300. 30.5" with 100gr brass insert. 100 grain Slick Trick Magnum. Total weight 523.41gr.
Analogy of the year award goes to…
I'm shooting a 50lb longbow with 550gr wood arrows with bear razorheads at around 160fps and I hit them every time and always under 20 yards
You are shooting within your equipments limitations.
👍👍
Good job👍👍
So much respect for the traditional guys!
I agree with you i have been shooting fixed blade broadheads and i try and stay around 280 fps .I shoot only 60lbs and with a 420 grain arrow and t puts me at 275 to 280 fps.I think for whitetails you really dont need extra heavy arrow weight.There is no perfect arrow weight it boils down to what works for you and what you are hunting.
Thanks for the insight! You're right that one size doesn't necessarily fit all
I shoot at 27.5 inches of draw length, even though my measured draw length is 28.4 inches. I shoot the shorter length because my shooting is much better at 27.5 than it is at 28 or 28.5 inches. I lose some speed but my accuracy is too good to trade for 10-20 fps.
It is so important to have your bow setup in a way that makes you perform optimally! The extra speed is not worth losing accuracy!
What is your arrow setup with the 27.5” draw? That’s what I shoot as well and I am at 265 fps with a total arrow weight of 480 grains. Just curious what other are going with in similar draw lengths.
@@jelrod1221 I shoot a Victory VAP Elite .166 in 300 spine with the 90-grain outserts. The arrows weight around 460 grains. My earlier bow shot the same arrow around 235 fps, but the bow was super quiet. In 2019, I stopped a buck with a bleat, he looked directly at me in the stand but didn't move until the arrow passed through him.
Always love when I come across fellow 27.5ers. I shoot a Phase4 at 75lbs with 493 grain Easton 5mm Axis arrows (150 upfront - 100 gr fixed blade broadhead, 25 gr insert, 25 gr collar - with AAE Max Hunter vanes and 20ish gr nockturnals in the back).
Just got my bow tuned and chrono’d it 275 fps. If I take the nockturnal out and shoot regular nocks (AAE ip5 nocks) the total arrow weight drops from 493 gr to 473 gr and it chronos at around 278ish fps.
I’ve been very happy with the setup, especially after the most recent tune.
Have a love/hate relationship with the lighted nocks, but that’s for another post haha.
Toying with the idea of changing out the insert and collar to titanium components which would save me another 25 gr. and put my total arrow weight around 450 gr total arrow weight without a lighted nock (470ish with a nockturnal).
Shooting the 450 gr arrow would likely put me around that coveted 285ish fps speed, but I’m not sure if it’s actually worth the hassle of re-tuning everything.
Erring on the side of no change…big believer in tinkering, but sometimes it can be counterproductive.
Hope this info is helpful!
@@kchak88 You definitely have your gear down to a science. I practiced with lighted nocks one year and did not achieve the same accuracy as with standard nocks - so I gave them to my brother. My arrows have a yellow nock that shows up well against the deer and I primarily hunt mornings, so low-light shooting isn't an issue for me unless the deer appears right at first light. Good luck this fall
Which type of arrow should I get that fly 310 320 fps if I shoot a compound bow?
I recommend you watch my video called “Arrow Building Masterclass Part 1”!
That will cover everything you need to know!
Shoot yeah man you're blessed with optimum specs you can shoot any arrow you want anyway you want and it will tune and fly… the men and ladies that have it tough are those that have that sub 28 inch draw at average poundage looking for that happy medium. Broadhead choice becomes sometimes critical at that point imo bravo for getting off that topic when you did I think you were right at the point of… Here we go lol🏹
This is a really good point, and something that I haven't thought about enough. Having a 30.5" draw length HAS made is so that I've never had an issue coming up with a heavy and fast arrow. I will plan to do a video on this soon! Thank you for the input and for watching our video!
Great video buddy
Thank you!
Why doesn't somebody try and find a way to test how much sound is coming from the bow that is CAUSING string jump... a heavier Arrow causes your bow to shoot quieter so couldn't that also reduce the amount of string jumping
This is a good point to talk about! The reality is that an animals senses are so incredibly hypersensitive to their surroundings that it doesn’t matter how much noise a bow makes, it’s the fact that it makes noise at all that causes string jumping. If you’ve ever watched a whitetail feeding, you’ve probably seen them ‘snap’ at the sound of a stick breaking, whether it’s a squirrel, another deer, or just the wind. The deer doesn’t care. That type of noise indicates danger, and unfortunately there is no way to make a bow silent enough that a deer won’t hear it! Thanks for watching and commenting!
I am more of a Johnny-come-lately on this YT site maybe missed it but… so aside from the videos that I've seen with your dad do you have a bio video mixed in, somewhere that I couldn't find? I've been shooting to TOTA broadhead since I guess 2017-ish, didn't pay much attention to the UA-cam side of things in fact don't even know when this channel started so my question is, is Luke still the company, who are you in that I don't remember you from the old days of staff or anything like that obviously year rather young by comparison as long tooth guys and I see that you obviously have real world experience with large game and knowledge as well. Just wondering how this worked out. I can definitely appreciate you putting yourself out there especially if you want to jump in to the ranch fairy world😂🏹
Luke still owns the company and is actively involved! As the company has grown he needed help, so I joined full time!
They put big brakes on big trucks for a reason. They are hard to stop. Of course you need some speed too. It’s a balance.
Great take!
Good video. But I know from multiple testing and experience, there’s not a significant difference in the two to be honest. It’s all personal preference at the end of the day regardless.
For the most part I would agree, but there are many cases when guys go extremely light and fast or extremely heavy and slow. As with anything in life, there are extreme ends of any spectrum and some point in the middle ground is usually best!
I hear what you're saying, and agree balance is important. I just don't understand what indicates optimal speed for flight is 280ish FPS ? There is nothing aerodynamically that is different between 200 FPS and 400FPS ? Remove penetration and trajectory flatness from the equation....why would 280FPS group better than 310FPS ? I would think any difference would be a spine or tuning issue (I e solvable)....not an aerodynamics issue ?
The 280 range is simply very forgiving especially when we talk about shooting fixed blades. There is a reason you don't see big fixed blades on many 450 fps + crossbow setups - the blades start to take over and it just doesn't work. I myself am pushing just shy of 300 fps out of my setup with zero issues, but it takes a level of perfection to achieve that. Most guys won't have issues getting any fixed blades to fly (as long as there isn't a spine issue) up to that 270-280 range, but it takes a perfect setup to start to push those limits. Field points handle any speeds quite well, but that isn't what is important. You can also look at bullets for example. If ballisticaly all speeds were the same, then all cartridge makers would be trying to get 6,000fps rounds. When building a new cartridge for a rifle, they slowly add powder and test groupings until they find that a certain speed has caused the grouping to get bigger. They are trying to find the optimal speed at which the bullet wants to fly. It is the same in arrows for the most part, we just don't have the level of precision to map things out with like the rifle guys do. Thanks always for the support and for commenting!
@@toothofthearrowbroadheads bullets are also aerodynamically unstable, where's arrows are stable. Up the twist rate up on the rifle, and it could likely tolerate the speed, until the point of spinning the jackets off! Re broad heads. .. I see your point now. Also, good for you for responding to a comment a year after video was published! You've got yourself a new fan
@@44bgood Thank you! Always happy to chat about this stuff and explore ideas, I will never say that I am right about everything and love to hear others thoughts and challenges!
The answer is yes both. You shouldn’t only be shooting one do all arrow. Speed 100%! 3D, indoor, thin skinned animals, distance, light boned. Heavy 100% larger game, wind, heavy skinned or coats on game. BUILD THE RIGHT BULLET FOR YOUR BOW. I don’t rabbit hunt with a 30-06 and I don’t moose hunt with a 22lr.
Yes! I love the old saying from John Dudley "You don't tune a bow. You set up a bow and then tune your arrows!"
535 grain arrow at 285fps working great for me right now. I have exactly 12 foc. Rip ss 250 spine
That sounds like a deadly setup!
70 pounds and 30.5 draw. That's like top 10 percentile. 280fps is more than sufficient. 250 is plenty within 30. Anyway all deer are different and can jump any bow under the right conditions.
Yes I am certainly lucky with my specs! We have a video coming out soon addressing ideal setups for those who can’t achieve speeds of 280 just due to body specs. Thanks a lot for watching!
Accuracy over rides everything. I want the most accurate arrow setup for me and my bow that I can find. I do care about weight and speed but I will1 take whatever weight at whatever speed that is the most accurate.
This is a great response! If you don’t hit ‘em in the right spot they won’t die no matter what you throw at them
I want to agree with you on certain things but you make some points both good and bad. Yes arrow velocity is important, so is penetration. 420-460g is not a light projectile.. you can still get 16% foc with that weight and It's going to its job if you do your job.
Arrows do have a sweet spot speed wise, especially fixed blade heads yes this is true. But your analogy about bullets is dopey :(.. the things that affect the accuracy of a bullet are much much more entailed than the dynamics of arrow flight. IE: power type, barrel type, crimp amount and type/ OAL / temperature sensitive loads the list is endless when it comes to vertical stringing with bullets.
Build a quality arrow that's moving 260-280fps with a fixed blade. Feel free to shoot your expanding heads at 300+ fps if you want IMO.
It was just a basic analogy suggesting that all projectiles have an optimal speed at which they are designed to fly, and this is true of bullets too! Hope you enjoyed the video and I appreciate you watching!
I still shoot a 480 spine easton 29 in weight is 355 on arrow and fixed broadhead. 27 draw at 50 lb with a 2012 bear legion. Still want go over 25 yard for kill or id go back to rifle
Very ethical opinion!
I'm so confused why people are so obsessed with pass-throughs. If you put those broad heads into the heart or lungs, the animal will die. Look at the native American tribs. their bows didn't get pass throughs, but they killed Buffalo with them. If it is the blood trails, we are worried about up your tracking game. If you put a big enough hole in the chest cavity/ thorax, it will let air in, and the lungs collaps.
They certainly will die very quickly with any shot into the chest regardless of a pass through, but I have hunted some pretty thick country in Northern Alberta, Alaska, and Mexico where you can just about walk right over the animal and not see them if you don’t have blood. Getting a pass through also means you’ve done more cutting and will generally tend to a quicker kill. Thanks for watching and sharing your insights!
@toothofthearrowbroadheads
Do not get me wrong, I very much enjoy your videos 👍
@@27murano I really appreciate it and always love hearing others opinions, I’m not always right!
270fps..? compounds perhaps.. what about recurve or trad shooters..? they barely make 200fps+/- even wif 60lbs bows.. 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
ur analysis is sound, but it doesn't apply across the board.. 🙏🏻
You're right, this video is specifically for compound archery and this would not be a good rule of thumb for trad guys! Wouldn't it be nice if we could get trad bows shooting 260+ though!
ahh.. okie, my bad; am new to your channel..😅🙏🏻
mehh.. if trads can go at 260, i'll sell all my compounds n go full trad.. 🤣😅😝
To slow? So nobody ever kills anything with a trad bow? My god...how did the American Indians not starve to death??
This video is specifically geared towards compound archery!