Arrow Momentum & Speed Deprivation Testing: Is Ranch Fairy Right?
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- Our goal with our Arrow Builds is to maximize velocity at a momentum that can pass through whatever our target game is. There is a lot of information out there about maximizing momentum to maximize penetration, however when momentum is the main priority you are sacrificing a lot of speed, trajectory and time!
We took a 372 gr arrow, a 444 grain arrow, and a 566 grain arrow and put them to the test with a lab radar! Our goal was to find out which arrow build will give us the correct amount of momentum, but also get to the target as quickly as possible. Here's what we found!
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I guess it depends more on what matters more to you. The heaviest arrow still got there in less than a second at 60 yards. Myself in not going to take a 60 yards shot. At 40 yards or less the heaviest arrow was less than a half of a second. I would rather give up that little amount of time and use the heavier arrow. I'm guessing the numbers to get a pass thru are on a perfect shot? Do them numbers change if you hit bone? That's where the weight will matter more to me. In real hunting situations deer will jump string, you will miss judge distance, or maybe just pull a shot. It will happen some times. for that reason I will go with the heavier arrow and give up tenths if a second. Also how much arch difference would there really be at those speeds? More than a inch at 60? That would be some good info to know if your going to argue that as a reason.
I don't think those charts are using any bone at all. I don't think I have ever seen a 372 arrow with a mechanical get a pass through. When using a non cut on contact broadhead you have to subtract the initial opening ke from your actual calculations as that is absorbed at impact before cutting is even done.
Agree. Additionally I’ve used light arrows (380-450gr) for a long time on deer, bear, and moose. Pass through for a bear (only killed one), but rarely on deer and never on moose - I killed most, (except a few shoulder hit deer) but according to the chart all should be dead. Sometimes life happens and animals move. You have to be prepared to hit a shoulder. That’s where the heavy arrow shines. Perfect shots are great, but rarely do things happen perfectly in the real world.
David killed Goliath with a sling shot. A perfect shot. Would I recommend a sling shot though? No. Sometimes things don’t line up perfectly.
Agree 100%. A pass through in the paunch is much easier than through leg or shoulder bone! Or a quartering away shot from a tree stand. Also the broadhead type, size , and sharpness will all figure into the equation. there is no such thing as too much when it comes to pass throughs.
Milliseconds make a huge difference. Go watch deer duck an arrow. Not to mention if you misjudge a deer to be 30 that is 35 with a fast arrow you are 3" low. With a heavy arrow you are 6-8" low.
@@wolfpack4128 milliseconds don't matter when they can drop as fast as they can, and sounds like you just pulled numbers out of you bottom for that last part. Heavier arrows are easier to predict trajectory on because the lose less velocity over all and maintain a relative equal fall across the full range. And if you misjudge an animal by that much that close then you need more practice or to range more (especially your surroundings)
yea lets hope you dont hit bone with that arrow. my 563 grain arrow is going 279 fps plenty fast and plenty of punch if I hit bone cause we all know everyone says shot placement to bad the deer didnt get that memo and stand still..still cool test thx for the time you spent great video...
😆😂😂
And a slower arrow alows that deer to move even more! Potentially so much that you miss the vitals! How far can can you drop your body in .1second!
Very interesting testing. These results basically verify what many of us have thought for a lot of years.
Whats missing though is the difference between air and meat.
The differences in this test are only showing the results for air....and on paper the differences are small. Thus you say that at a certain point you're giving up speed for unnecessary momentum.
A 10% difference in momentum and efficiency while driving a broadhead through meat and bone is huge.
1000s of real world videos demonstrate this.
If the deer drops before the arrow gets there or you misjudge a shot by 5 yards with a heavy arrow all you're going to hit is air anyways.
@@wolfpack4128 and if your light arrow does hit it? It's not doing much and just wounding a deer.
Nailed it!
@@wolfpack4128 I’m a heavy arrow guy myself but that was funny
@@wolfpack4128a deer can(and does as proven by thousands of videos) jump the string of any bow and arrow combination. Even the fastest arrows at 20 yds. Aren't faster than a whitetails response. To your second point, the point of impact difference on a yardage miscalculation isn't near as significant as what some people think. That light arrow may be faster...but loses speed and energy much faster too. The heavy arrow starts much slower for sure...but loses much less energy over any given distance, maintaining its speed. What you end up with is negligible differences in amount of drop in a few yards of miscalculation. The only time there is a valid and significant difference is if you are sighted in for a light arrow....then shoot a heavy arrow and compare the difference. If you are sighted in for heavy and miscalculate by a few yards, the amount of "extra drop" isn't really extra at all. It's negligible and entirely manageable. There are videos showing this too....or test for yourself. I had to test myself because I truly believed a heavy arrow would fall out of the sky on a 5 yard misjudgement. It's simply not true. What this video unequivocally proves is that shooting a heavier arrow really can't hurt you. On the other hand, a light arrow is approaching the cusp of being insufficient for deer at 60 yds....with no substantial benefit to the hunter. All we achieve with a light arrow is fast misses(when we miss), louder bows, and more wind drift with reduced energy, momentum, and penetration ability. Basically no real advantage whatsoever...unless none of that matters and a couple hundredths of a second flight time is the holy grail to someone, regardless of the proof being contradictory.
The only thing left out of this analysis is arrow drop over distance. If you are making 60+ yard shots for elk, then this becomes relevant.
The Killer Arrow blog/article you show in the video just uses a standard Easton KE chart. Then with the IBO testing standards, they did some calculations to come up with their own rough Momentum for game chart. I understand it was a source to use for the general purpose of the video, but they weren't actual number requirements for a pass through. After looking at many of those charts out there, such as the Real Tree chart, they have much higher numbers for each category of game. So the ones referenced in the video, I would argue they should be used as minimum requirements for just lethality, at best and not optimal numbers for a passthrough.
The idea of reaching required momentum as soon as possible with a setup is sound and reasonable, but should error on the higher end of those numbers and error on using them as a minimum. 0.349-0.433 slug fps for large game and 0.481-0.532 slug fps for toughest game were cited in that article shown in the video. Personally, I would error on using the toughest game numbers for large game and I would shoot for that 0.532 slug fps number at the end of my effective range. That would increase my chances greatly of an ethical kill with ideal conditions and less than perfect shot placement.
All that being said, I always enjoy these types of videos and appreciate the time and money spent to do this kind of testing!
True. The momentum numbers are really low.
This is a calculation based on a clear shot without hitting a shoulder bone or and solid mass of a animal.
Ask yourself this. Would you but a truck that barely pulled a camper based on tow weight or would you up the truck size so your truck wouldn't be under such a load. You may not need that extra torque, but you got it if you do
Great comparisons but I would gladly give up 8/100ths of a second at 60 yards (even less at closer yardage) for the additional benefit of having enough momentum to go through the animal even if, heaven forbid, you clip bone.... that minimal momentum light arrow is passing through ONLY on best case scenarios...
If 372grains is fine for whitetail how come 90%+ videos im watching with these light fast arrows the deer is running off with 3/4 the shaft hanging out so don't seem like .305 slugs is cutting it to me in a whitetail size animal
Most likely a broadhead issue rather than the arrow weight
@@camthecameraman5096 i used a hand sharpened tooth of the arrow 1" solid last yr with a 395gr shooting 76lbs 29 1/2" dw and 4 out of 9 deer didn't pass thru thats not a broadhead issue thats not enough ass in the arrow I never had this problem at 515gr so i already switched back light foc is a joke imo its pretty easy to build a 500gr arrow at 15% foc thats the best performance I've ever personally used so thats what im sticking with from hear on out
372 grains is probably fine for a coyote lol
@@camthecameraman5096 just out of curiosity what would a mmt weigh out at and foc % be at 28" carbon 2 carbon with the heaviest insert u offer
@@jeff_8789 with a 100gr head on a 300 spine it’d be like 465 11-11.5% FOC I believe.
Although, trust us we’re not anti heavy FOC and heavy arrow in the right situation. As the product offering expands we’ll have heavier insert options and stiffer spine options.
Good use of the scientific method, but I want to point out that the data here fails to account for the fact that everything changes at the moment of impact. Hide, muscle, connective tissue, bone...these all weigh in to how the energy of your arrow dissipates. This experiment takes only pre-impact data, so it provides an incomplete picture. It's not about the energy of the arrow at impact, though more efficient energy retention during flight is beneficial, it's about how efficiently your arrow retains energy when it meets hard resistance. This concept requires more than just calculations, but also things like broadhead design, sharpness, structural integrity, specific trajectory through the target which is never uniform, etc. Both fast arrows and heavy arrows can be poor killing tools if they can't retain that kinetic energy and momentum all the way through the animal. For example, a mechanical broadhead opens at impact, which requires taking some of that energy out of your arrow and putting it in the blades. Momentum and kinetic energy recommendations do not take these factors into account. That's where the ranch fairy philosophy comes from, accounting for the things you can't calculate.
Not to mention how important edge retention is. If it dulls on impact it will just push things out of the way instead of devastating it. A broadhead that can get an edge like that & hold it is worth it. It's like having 10 less pounds of pressure in your tires @ all times. Then u only notice it when u have a flat tire. The steel in some of these heads is much better than years ago but they need to be wicked sharp or it's not efficient. There r probably quite a few hunters out there that have never seen a 20 yard bloodtrail where the animal expires in seconds.
I will keep using my Apollo 300 spine 598 grain 20% FOC out my 65 pound bow with my short 25.6 inch draw (Yep 25.6) shooting inside 30 yards and keep on smiling as my 200 grain single bevel tuff head passes through. Happy Hunting
I will stick with a 400 grain arrow out of my 60lb Bowtech solution and a 460 grain arrow out of my 80lb PSE Mach 1. I use them for different applications typically. 60lb bow for treestand cold weather sitting and 80lb for western hunting.
Very well done!! I’m sticking to my 475-505gn arrows. Just a matter of changing from 100gn to 125gn field tip/ broad heads.
❤️❤️
excellent presentation. One thing is for sure- your exactly right as the data shows.The ranch fairy is correct with his findings as well. Shoot the arrow at your trade off decision as they all should work.The real deal is what happens when the animal is hit. Toss a mechanical on any of those and see where you get? I would love to see a real world test of a mechanical at those same arrow weights. My theory is a 100 grain mechanical has a integrity thresh hold at a certain poundage; 60/70/80. I would be willing to bet a 100 grain Grim Reaper, Rage or anything similar does not hold up well at 80 lbs into a bone 100% of the time... and definitely not the 2" skinny blades.
The chart you're referencing was created by Easton according to that article. I would question its accuracy and methodology before making assumptions.
I'd certainly agree with you....the reccomend ke & momentum for the game, is based off of hitting the animal where ? Broadside and going between the ribs ? Broadside & hitting one rib on entry ? Broadside and hitting a rib on entry and exit ? Further forward and hitting heavy muscle in the shoulder? Quartering away and needing to drive an arrow behind the last rib and into the chest cavity? A full frontal shot and pass through the animal length wise ? So on and so forth.....lots of variables to think about in regards to where and what you hit on the animal
@@joeburke3553 very good points
Easton has been in business way longer than fairy I'll go with Easton!
Straight from Troy AKA ranch fairy :
The problem these guys have
To disprove any test you have to shoot that test or close to it.
To disprove the test.
So-
They need to shoot a subset of arrows matching my test to “prove me wrong”
388-715 grains (or close enough)
And do the KE erosion
I did that
and Momentum erosion
Which I did
We know a 430 will kill a deer
In plan A
No need for any arrow over 500g in North America. Would only venture to say you want to shoot that heavy if you can move it at 280fps and up. Build a good arrow around a 6.0 to 6.3 grains per pound draw weight, and worry about excellent arrow flight, good trajectory, and sharp broadheads, and you'll avoid kool aid and snake oil salesmen.
Levi Morgan said it best. Stop worrying about speed FOC and momentum. Shoot a reasonable arrow around 430-450 gns and go hunt. Average Jack Archery calls these “bell curve” arrows. I tend to agree. Never had a problem at 430 gns.
Makes absolutely no sense to build cape Buffalo arrows for white tale I think people need to practice more I'm shooting 486 grain arrows with sever 2.0 not problem blowing through a scapula good luck hitting the humorous an deflation is forwarded no vitals
I’m guessing that there is no heavy bone hits with those slug weights 🤔 but what if u hit the ball of the humerus bone don’t really think that will penetrate!!! Troy said for himself that these are plan B arrows so if plan A goes as “planned” you don’t need this but animals move constantly so I plan for B and hope for A.. 633 grain with 19.6% FOC
For me personally, basing my entire arrow setup for a bone the size of a golf ball when the vitals are the size of a pie plate doesn’t seem right. For me I’ll aim at the back of the lungs and watch him go down. And I won’t have to worry if I misjudge yardage by a yard or too because I’ll have the trajectory on my side
@@camthecameraman5096 so shoot them through the middle and pray is basically what you are saying..
So when you keep your shots reasonable not 60 or even 40 yards you don’t have to worry about a yard or TWO!!!
I shot a doe at 15 yards, quarter to, with a 458 grain FMJ and Montec head. I have a 29" draw and pull 70#. I hit her in the shoulder, not scapula, her shoulder, and it stopped my arrow dead in its tracks. I may have caught one lung based on her breathing, but I watched her walk quarter mile up a steep hill into the woods. I gave her all night, but I tracked her and found the coyotes finished her off. After that, I said never again and went back to my trad roots and built a dangerous game arrow for whitetail. Since then, I have been shooting 715 grains w/ 25% FOC, at 245 fps and a single bevel and have never had to track another deer since. You can kill a deer with a 350 or 400 grain arrow for sure. Just don't hit a bone.
The reason for heavy arrow is for when u don’t make the perfect shoot and we all been there and u hit a bone less penetration the odds are against you recovering your animal. I’ll take the heavy arrow .
Just make a perfect shot every time and you’ll never have to worry about it!
/s
You’re exactly right woody! Nobody is perfect and that’s what we prepare for. Anybody that says they have made a perfect shot on every animal hasn’t been hunting long or they’re full of 💩
@@whalen83watch som of the footage of THP when some of their shots we good, but no penetration. 400 gr arrow 70lb bow with mechanicals, but no penetration. Happens all the time on the tv shows like Lee and Tiffany.
Look at the Ashby Studies. There’s 12 factors that will increase lethality on the target animal. It’s not just “heavy arrows”. I agree with several other posts- the 12 factors are for Plan B. You’re talking arrows and KE.
Talk about what the arrow does when it hits the animal.
The Ashby studies were done with trad bows. The power stroke from trad bows is not equal to that of a compound. Flight characteristics are not the same, what an arrow requires to fly well are not the same. How the arrow reacts from a trad bow and from an 85% let off compound are not the same
@@gradyrobinson-shaw6079
I can understand your point. But there’s way more to the 12 arrow factors than what you’re saying and the video is saying. When folks hit a deer scapula or humerus and fail to recover the animal, the Ashby studies and Ranch Fairy will make sense.
This video proves nothing about what happens to the animal.
@@gradyrobinson-shaw6079 Pass throughs on cape buffalo with trad bows do matter IF most people aren't passing through deer! He also didn't have carbon arrows for most of the study or Iphone or a tesla but what he had was factors that enhance lethality in a broad spectrum of shots that ultimately made bow hunting legal in Africa so it should work here
@@gradyrobinson-shaw6079 they use compounds too, maybe actually read the studies. Sometimes they use stick bow or light draw to actually get the arrows to stop. If they all pass through its hard to have data to get results.
@@gradyrobinson-shaw6079 bows are literally just machines to deliver energy to an arrow. It is all the same. The amounts are different but otherwise the same.
One day everyone will run into penetration issues from concentrating so much on speed. I came from the era shortly before all this speed hype. So i see theres alot more advantage than just not worrying about penetration. When deer dont even know they were shot. Expire with in visibility way more often. If your gonna dissect weather ranch fairy is right or not. Youll need to do more, way more
I will argue on pass through shots and letting a arrow penetrate in deep enough to hit both lungs but flop around as it backs out and cuts and completely destroys the lungs, liver, heart and anything possible inside the animal
I am tired of this argument period end of story . Half the reason we are losing deer is because no penatration . When we went from aluminum to carbon we loss a lot of mass . Then when we went lighter to get more speed we lost more mass . So I am not shooting 100% foc but between 12%-19% and a decent arrow will get the job done . We were killing deer when we were shooting in the 80s just saying
Great video. Don’t forget there’s 12 factors to getting the best penetration possible on your shots. Weight is important but there’s 11 other important factors.
True, if you can follow the first 7 of them. You should do great. 11. Deals with Tanto Tips. #12 Deals with heavy bones (like large pigs & deer, elk knuckle joints & ball sockets).
A heavier arrow will be quieter than a lighter arrow. I'm talking the bow more quiet, not the arrow. So it comes down to a stable arrow that holds it's energy while both the bow & the arrow r @ maximum efficiency. It seems like finding the right fletching/ broadhead combo that is quiet is more of a factor. Yes, time is important. The minutes I spend blood trailing compared to the hours or waiting overnight is more of an issue to me.
the faster the arrow gets there, the less the noise matters.
@@yourmomma2995 Even if your arrow goes 300 fps a deer can react to 1200 fps. So the whole speed thing is 1/4 of what u need. If a deer moves quickly reacting to the noise u r looking @ a marginal hit & a significant rise in adrenaline 🤔. All r bad things even if u r able to recover the animal.
@@josephtreadlightly5686 deer cant react to to 1200fps, i have yet to have a deer "jump the bullet" in over 40 years of hunting them. i also have a crossbow that shoots 350fps and deer just dont have time to react to the sound when the arrow is traveling that fast, and it is LOUD (excalibur matrix 355).
@@yourmomma2995 when was the last time u shot a deer within 15 yards with a bow? It sounds like we r talking about 2 totally different subjects.
@@josephtreadlightly5686so your argument is to give the deer more time to move their vitals away from the impact of the arrow for a 1-2lb gain in kenetic energy. How far can you move your body in .1 seconds.....I bet pretty far.
I enjoyed the video and info you presented. The one question I have is about that number of .305 needed for a pass through. Is it speaking specifically in pass throughs with clean shots made on broadside animals, or pass through no matter the angle or bone hit?
I could definitely see that light arrow being plenty to get around a few ribs, but do question its ability to get through shoulder blade or the ball of the leg bone like on one of "the hunting public" videos.
Also, not to be argumentative, but there is no such thing as over kill!!! Dead is dead. But there is such thing as under kill!!! And I know lots of people myself included that wish they would not have gone down the rabbit hole of chasing speed.
Once again, awesome content and thanks for your thoughts and findings.
Even if I only partly agree with you. It’s great to question things and test things out. That’s how we all learn and become better!
Your recommended momentum must not include a bone hit. This was really cool to see the numbers though
Exactly the extra KE they did away with for more speed would continue to drive the arrow through bone. I've watched multiple deer get shot 20 yards with lighter arrows and fixed heads and only go in a few inches. When I've made same shot and full pass through with way slower bow and high FOC. Not to mention expandle b.s
@@hackmanoutdoors1626 there was a video where John Dudley got 6 inches of penetration at 12 yards on a muley. He’s one of the best archers in the world so clearly there’s more to it than just “shot placement”
@@hackmanoutdoors1626 #makeexpandablesgreatagain #fixedbladessucklol
Broad-heads make a big diff I’m 50/50 for recovery with mechanical going to a heavier arrow destroyed the mechanical so it’s a bunt or a home run. I’m trying 150 and 200gr fix blade this year total gr 552 and 638 @65lb if I do my part I should go from 50% to over 90% I don’t plan on shooting past 30 yd
A accurate arrow is better than anything. Shoot what your bow wants not what youtube tell you to.
You hit the nail right on the head brother All these f*cktards with their "Joe Bow Expert" mentality, saying anything less than 500 grains is stupid. I guess they don't want women or youths to have bowhunting opportunities. Most of them are shooting 45-50lbs draw weight. There is no way you're getting properly spined arrows at those weights.
Love my 420 grain arrows
Yup,.. 400 to 450 Grains, is a "Money Arrow" with, a little FOC, some Speed, Tuned Stiff Shaft and,.. a SHARP, 2 or 3 Blade, Fixed Head !
My arrows were, 435 gr's ( 50 Gr's of FACT's, Up front ) with, a G-5 Striker and 50 pound, Maxed out limb's on, my PSE, DNA SP Bow, would "Blow Thru", a 13/16th inch OSB Board AND,.. my 3/4 inch thick Cedar Fence plank at, 250 FPS at, 30 yards,.. YUP,.. T'was,.. "Plenty" for, Deer / Elk !
fine for deer, not so much for elk, especially if the shot isn't a perfect setup.
Great content and great breakdown. I personally have went a bit heavier (about 460grains) which has been at the expense of trajectory for long range shooting but I like most eastern whitetail hunters primarily hunt and take shots within 30 yards from an elevated stand. Given that, I’ll take the massive difference in kinetic momentum and energy over the difference of .03 seconds to impact of target.
Great video, My bow hunting is more elk then WT, I build my arrows for the worste case scenario. If I grip the bow and send an arrow into an elk shoulder what set up will be more lethal arrow. Any arrow could pass through an elk if everything goes perfect.
I would make the choice based on my hunting style, what I found interesting in your chart was there was hardly any difference in time to target at 20 yards. So, if you are strictly a tree stand hunter and hunting mainly in the thick stuff, wich is what a lot of us do here in the south where I hunt, then I would sacrifice speed for penetration. But If I was more into spot and stalk, or open land hunting I would find that happy medium in the 400 to 450 grain range so that I could have a good trajectory and still have a little bit of overkill for penetration.
Elk hunting and my arrows are 450 gn, works for me.
Heavier arrows takes alot of vibration out of your bow. Makes a huge difference in sound which is a huge deal to me. Also more tip wieght gives you a more forgiven arrow. You skip some other important assets to heavy arrows. I would much rather a more accurate and as quiet as possible set up. If all your getting out of light is speed to beat a string jump, which will never happen. What other assets come from speed
I've noticed that heavier arrows seem to be alot more durable too
And a lot quieter which helps in reaction time of animal moving out of the path of the arrow
@@bobbybrewster7435 quieter because you effectively decreased the arrow speed. I mean car driving my 20 mph is quieter than one driving by 40-50 mph. The reason it’s quieter is because you have made the arrow heavy enough and slowed it down where the vanes no longer flutter in due to the effect on them that happens at speeds 280fps and higher.
@@DrMadMax Don't forget that a heavier arrow also comes out with more energy which isn't transferred to the bow itself. Less vibration overall.
@@VitalyMack that’s not necessarily true …what do you mean when you say more energy? What do you mean by heavier arrow ( big difference between 500 g high FOC arrow and 500g with low FOC?) What do you mean by vibration because actually an arrow with higher FOC equates to overall more vibration especially on the arrow which requires a greater recovery time on the shaft which I turn yields to greater speed depredation and loss penetration down range. For those that like shooting heavy arrows because they say they are quieter don’t understand the real reason as to why. By making an arrow heavier you effectively slowed the arrow down soo much that aerodynamic no longer is a big factor on vane flight and therefore they no longer flutter. The flutter of vanes is the real reason why deers jump when being shot at. If you ever shot an arrow with a nicked fletching/vane you will 💯 know what I am talking about. I recommend you listen to Deer Gear podcasts/Dorge from fire nock. He does a great job of explaining the science and reasoning why high FOC arrows are not beneficial for a modern compound.
@@DrMadMax I'm sure you can use several energy calculations that will show similar results. KE, momentum, and even feet per second. If you increase arrow FOC you need a stiffer spine.
Just saying, when all things are equal, a stiffer heavier arrow with more FOC will absorb more of the energy, instead of more energy being imparted from the string to the rest of the bow.
If your vanes are fluttering, this is a completely different issue. I have different types of vanes for different bow set-ups. If you vanes are fluttering due to higher velocity, you clearly need smaller and stiffer vanes.
Dude, I'll check out your suggested channel, but I suggest looking at Levi Morgan's channel and Ranch Fairy, especially when he brings in a rocket scientist on his show.
P.S. I think we all have shot an arrow with loose fletching, lol.
Great video, I love real data. The one thing I’d suggest is testing arrows in the weight ranges the Ranch Fairy (Troy) recommends. Citing the Ashby principles, bone breaking threshold is 650 grains, but 750 grains and up are recommended for animals like Cape Buffalo. For the record, I’m not a fan of these principles and how they apply to modern equipment. I tested many arrows when preparing for Cape Buffalo and settled at 578 grains, much lighter than recommended, I did speak to Troy on several occasions and he recommended 750 grains plus. My PH in Africa also said my setup was too light to be effective on Buffalo. Let’s see numbers for the heavyweights, Troy would think 566 is a noodle
So what happens when the deer moves and you went with speed instead of keeping the extra kE to keep driving the arrow and hit bone and arrow doesn't pass through 🤔.
Well the other side of the coin here is what happens if your slightly slower arrow allows them to duck a couple inches more n its th difference between no man's land n a high lung hit🤷♂️
@@dlydly1686 well I guess that's why some shoot lower 1/3 and right about elbow. I've never had one duck low enough to hit that high since I realized I didn't have to stay off shoulder as far as I was taught. And with solid COC heads and high foc I'm not worried about bone. If deer are ducking and you are hitting no man's land or missing you should probably stop taking those shots lol. All I know is since I've made the switch from light and fast I haven't lost a deer yet 🤷🏼♂️. To each their own tho shoot what's best for you.
Love what you're doing here. We need more of this. However, hitting bone is an absolute game changer. Speed cannot make up for the fact that animals move. You cannot beat them all the time. That said, we need enough momentum to breach the bones. I do not want something with teeth and claws coming after me when my arrow goes bonk from a bone hit. For me, I want overkill, especially when my life or health could be on the line. Remember, trad guys have been killing animals for millennium with much slower bows and they did not eat when they missed. So, while I may agree with your conclusion in principle, on meat things can change and overkill is what I prefer. With respect, thank you.
Can you add trajectory loss too? How much more did the heavier arrows fall? I’m much more interested in knowing that vs milliseconds to arrival.
Also wouldn't a heavier Arrow decrease the amount of vibration in your bow translating also into a quieter shooting bow which would also possibly translate into less chance of reaction by the animal you were shooting
With a traditional bow yes, I don't think it matters with compounds they have alot of accessories that quiet them down.
@@bipolarbear69 it would be relatively easy to test this Theory set up one Arrow around 400 grains and put a decibel meter at 20 yards away from your position and then shoot a 500 grain Arrow also at 20 yards away from the decibel meter and then shoot a 600 grain Arrow also 20 yards away from a decimal meter... then you will see how much difference the heavier Arrow makes as far as noise reduction and obviously you have to use the same bow for each Arrow
There's now way ur heaviest arrow will have that much ke at 27.5 draw and 68 pound at 246 feet is impossible to have 97 pound of ke
The testing you just did has already been done and with your theory these numbers will only work in a perfect world
In the game of hunting whitetail the game of time is 100% not time .
Where do you come up with that?
You cannot out shoot sound so don’t try.
A quiet bow and quiet arrow . Done .
Don’t be stupid.
Straight flying arrows with solid bone splitting two blade heads .
I’ve shot everything and Keep Er Simple , strong and silent.
my arrow is 650 gr speed 192 fps bow 56 pounds , 26 in draw arrow went through pig , went through shoulder between the ribs through bottom of lung middle of the heart ,cut a rib off and then smashed the humerus, the arrow finished about the same on each side , see the speed 192 fps
For all you “I’ll give up milliseconds for weight” guys…I’d like to share an experience I had this season.
At 10 yards…on an arrow traveling at 273 fps…I had a doe not just jump the string, she also turned. My arrow went right where I aimed but she completely beat the arrow. I used to believe milliseconds didn’t matter. Now…I’ll take all the speed I can get while still keeping my KE and momentum ratings high.
I now shoot a 411 grain scientific arrow at 10% FOC…she moves at 294 fps at launch and my KE and Momentum ratings are all high enough to shoot the biggest game. It’s all about the happy medium. Best of luck!
Who else has heard enough on this. The math, and physics has been proven, documented, and readily available for YEARS! Waste of UA-cam space...... Turned it off as soon as I hit send. Slug feet... Is that a snail race? Over 30 years with physics, strength of materials and too much math to care about this. What are you doing!
I'm very grateful for the time and effort you put into videos like this, thank you.
I want to take some of the numbers you used in your closing, to help put things into yet ANOTHER perspective. I have never been able to buy into the argument that speed = forgiveness. This is possibly true for range estimation, but not for time to target or shot placement. This is why........
In your closing, you noted that time to target is 15.9% more for the heaviest arrow at the longest range. The argument is that this gives the animal more time to jump to the string. That's obviously true, but how much?
Let's assume that both of us can hit what we aim at, and that we aim at the same perfect place. If the animal stands there and takes, it we both hit the same. If the animal jumps the string a bit, and you miss by 3", then I miss by less than 3.5" (15.9% of 3 is .48). If he jumps the string pretty badly, you miss by 6" and I miss by 7". If he goes nuts and you miss by 10", then I miss by 11.5".
So, there is little, if any, practical difference. Three inches is plenty to completely change the hit location, engage bone, alter the course of penetration, etc. and 3.5" is barely differrent. 10" is enough to really screw up a shot, or even miss, and 1.5" farther might be better or worse. That's all random.
The smarter approach is to maximize lethality, aim for the MOST vital vitals, and use an arrow that that is capable of dealing with the effects of that 3", 3.5", or 6" of movement we cannot control.
The thing is I used to hear this argument about speed forty years ago, but they were talking about a difference between 200, and 220 fps. The "speed" guys were as sure then that twenty feet per second was gonna make all the difference. Now we're all being told that 260 is just not fast enough........
My 31" draw sends a 450g arrow at 302fps so now I go for FOC and build a 608gr arrow and I'm 270fps matching this guy's 444gr arrow speed so I'm good lol I love having a long draw length
That's not that heavy and That's not that much momentum😂
I only shoot 60 pounds and I am getting .72 slugs of momentum with my 800 grain arrow.
Great test! I love how many data points you collected and how you organized it!
Those recommendations for momentum are a little flawed. Even if just encounter a rib, you're going to want a lot more momentum than what that chart said. Otherwise, great test!
The numbers you used where at 60 yards for comparison. Why not use 100 yards and make the comparison on numbers. At 100 yards the gaps would have been even greater. Shooting medium sized deer at 60 yards is not what we should be looking at doing. Take your test and only do a 20 yard comparison. You know the gap between the different weight arrows will be a lot smaller. At 20 yards and the small difference in speeds, the benefit of a heavy arrow will prove to be of benifit on bone. Just keeping it in real life perspective. I'll NEVER shoot a whitetail at 60 yards.
Let’s be honest, if you are shooting deer only at 20 yards you shouldn’t have any issues. #1 penetration is more about shot placement than arrow weight/speed anyway. You should hit a quarter every time at that distance. #2 if you are shooting legal equipment, you have enough energy/momentum at 20 yards.
This information is helpful, but somewhat skewed. It seems like everyone prefers FAST because that is what the bow hunting industry has preached for so long.... Obviously so they can sell new products every year. Sure people go crazy with arrow weight and shoot 700+ grains at a deer. I personally wouldn't call 566 grains over kill. A sub 400 grain arrow is, in fact, to light to be flinging at a deer. Why!? Well lets face it, deer move most times when shot at. There are just to many variables when they move, we can't accurately predict which direction, how quick, how slow, ect. Now if all deer remained stationary till the arrow penetrated a 370 grain arrow would be acceptable and could zip right through the ribcage. The problem is they move, and now you have greater odds of hitting the shoulder or dense bone. Generally speaking a 370 grain arrow will most times struggle to punch through the shoulder blade. Speed only gets you to the deer, momentum gets you through the deer.. In this video the Time to Target comparison is made with a 372 -566 grain arrow, a difference of 194 grains. The difference between the two arrow's Time to Target is .12 seconds at 60 yards. A deer can duck an arrow past 10 yards weather its traveling at 280fps out of a compound or 475fps out of a crossbow. A heavier than average arrow is going to do way more for you than shooting light arrow that is only .12 seconds faster.... The reality is sound travels at 1,125 fps which proves the whole bow speed craze is rigged. Why don't more people see the value of shooting a 500ish grain arrow?
Folks shoot deer constantly at 60-70KE and they often don't get a pass through. Just watch TV with bucks running off with the arrow bouncing up and down. 40KE is sufficient only best case scenario.
Ive said this very same thing elsewhere, but since i watched these videos back to back im going to leave the same comment as i did elsewhere... If time to target was a thing then no one in the 1980's or 90's (or earlier) shooting an aluminum arrow wouldve likely killed anything. For example an aluminum 2117 Easton Gamegetter (400 spine) at 27" with standard insert, nock and plastic vanes comes in around roughly 550gns. The same setup on a 2315 and 2317 (340 and 300 spine) are pushing well over 600gns, and these things were traveling maybe 145-150fps
Heavy arrows vs light arrows is nothing short of 9mm vs .45 ACP. They all work guys. I’m just saying.
You base your findings off of these "minimum momentum values needed for sm/md/lg/toughest game... and the med size is the whitetail, it's only .207-.305 slug fps and 25-41 ft-lbs. If that had ANY validity, why is there so many videos of arrows hanging halfway out of deer coming out of 60 and 70 lb modern compounds?
One thing that I find interesting about this data is how utterly ridiculous those numbers are.
The numbers say for a passthru, the min slug ft-lbs energy is .349-.433 for large game. Elk, boar, etc. they also say a 377 grain arrow has .440. So theoretically, a 377 grain arrow should NEVER not pass thru an elk at 60 yards for that data to be true.
Also on that data, a 500+ grain arrow is capable of killing buffalo, moose, etc by means of a guaranteed passthru.
That’s all clearly not true. Broadhead design, arrow flight, structural integrity, front of center, sharpness, etc all come into play. It’s not just speed and mass. Not to mention your target. Did you hit soft tissue, bone, dense muscle, dense bone? Was the target moving, spinning, falling, etc. was the direction towards or away from you?
There are zero charts that can accurately predict what an arrow can penetrate, and I believe there are too many variables in such a discussion to do anything other than surmise what will most commonly happen.
And that is simple: it’s most common for heavy arrows to out penetrate light arrows at any distance on any target with all the other Ashby Factors taken into account. Put the same quality and sharpened Broadhead on a perfectly tuned arrow that’s light and heavy and the heavy will always win out.
One other thing about the tester: he said any energy over what the chart says is required is unnecessary and wasted. That’s not true. While that energy is not necessarily being used on every shot, it’s part of the “plan b” that every hunter needs to take into account when hunting. Think of it this way: don’t only put enough gas in your car to get from home to your destination and back? Or do you have more? Do you only take the exact change to dinner for your items, or do you have extra just in case something happens?
We even keep spare tires just in case one fails. Why wouldn’t you keep extra stored energy on your arrow system in case you hit hard or heavy bone?
The charts show unequivocally the heavy arrow is the best option for penetration. The opinion is whether or not the increased arc and flight time are worth it for your hunting style.
I personally shoot a 718 grain arrow out of a 70# bow and a 1020 grain arrow out of a 90# bow. Both have over 20% FOC, the 70#er shoots 220 and the 90 shoots 240’s.
Any of these arrows will suffice....if you don't hit heavy bone. If you shot a mech in tge guts...ya it will pass through. But you shoot that 372 and a mech and hit anything hard...bonk and lost deer.
The light arrows (under 500) I think is dumb. You can't beat deer reaction so might as well hit with really heavy and break stuff. Mine is 645gr with a single bevel. I get right up on the shoulder and I watch almost all drop in sight.
What a good presentation i enjoyed all of it and guess what you didn't act like a idiot while making this video , and you never once insulted anyone acting like a infant child talking in SpongeBob voices and all of that crap he Does, i find him hard to follow and i personally think he is obnoxious and is bad for new bow hunters now guys think they need a spear to kill a deer its ridiculous to act the way this man does hollering screaming and carrying on i would probably watch him if he wasn't acting stupid the entire show i really enjoyed this content 100 times better please make more of these videos to help guys have a better presentation and understanding that your not just shooting pigs at 15 yds my goodness finally some great understanding without having to cypher through the idiotic language!
Damn fine Job guys!
🤘🤘🤘🤘💪💪💪💪
Yeah your calculations are correct however there is difference between your calculations and those of Dr. Ashby. Your graph for slug weight is calculated for a chest wall penitration whereas Dr. Ashby is calculated by heavy bone penitration it takes more than 40% more energy to pass through heavy bone. This is the base reason for heavier arrows and momentum versus speed and time to target
Heres my take
I am like most hunters and hunt all kinds of habitat
One day my max shot is 25-30 yards
One day or even the same day different stand I am faced with the very real possibility of a shot at my maximum effect range as a bow hunter of 50 yards
For me and I imagine a majority of not clear overwhelming majority of bowhunters speed is very important in helping to minimize as much as possible errors in yardage estimations my current set up launches a 440ish grain arrow 268fps and I surely do not wish to ever shoot any slower than that because the way I have my pins set I essentially can not miss below 30 yards unless I wildly WILDLY overestimate my shot distance
I still have my older slower bows and wouldn't ever by choice wish to go back to shooting them because they are at least 25-30fps slower at 58lbs and that loss in FPS has a huge impact past 30 yards
I choose my shots with maximum care and only take shots I am confident will result in a double lung hit
I see no evidence whatsoever that shows what I will loose in speed going to a much heavier arrow will be significantly offset by any type of gain
The arrow weight I currently use is the sum of all components with no additional added weight
I get excellent arrow flight with FBBH's excellent penitraition and Very good speed and KE.
The heavier arrow, is going to save your bacon when your shot hits bone. As the Fairy says plan B. Inside 20 yards heavy arrow all day. Shooting an elk at 40 plus, even though its a bigger animal I think trajectory and time to target becomes more of a factor in a successful kill shot.
A heavy arrow hitting bone with slow speed/momentum is no good..There is a happy median for speed and weight for every set up.Heavier is not better. This is common knowledge until social media said you need a 600 gr arrow to hunt with..lol
Definitely depends on the game you’re chasing! No doubt
@@timwozniak7574 talk to the old guys before carbon when all the arrows were heavy and they were still delivering dirt naps on a regular
@@TheOKfisherman Because heavy was the only part of the momentum equation that made it work. Compounds that the "old guys" were shooting didn't come close to 300fps. Momentum is mass x velocity. There is a balance like everything else.
@@lilleyton12 like I mentioned in my other comment with my personal experience I had what some considere an adequate weight at 296fps and it was like shooting a nerf dart when it hit bone. I'm willing to give up a 10th of a second to impact for 200 more grains up front. If I continue to see problems I'll adjust from there. I just really feel people get to caught up on speed especially when traditional shooters shoot heavy arrows at a fraction of the speed and still get it to the deer fast enough. Now I know the range isn't the same and maybe I'm completely wrong about everything but time will tell
These tables must have been made by the same people who say you can kill a deer with a 22. It says the acceptable momentum range for killing deer is 0.207-0.305 slug-ft/s. A 400 grain arrow traveling at 200 fps has a momentum of 0.355 slug-ft/s. With this logic we should all be shooting kids bows. Can it be done? Yes. Is it smart or ethical? NO!
I would LOVE to see the same arrows but three different broadheads. A short fixed(Exodus). A long three blade(Magnus Snuffer or Tuff head) A 2 inch mechanical (Sever 2.0) Test the penitration of each broadhead with the different arrow weights. Just a thought. 😁
Critical mistake assuming 0.305 slug-ft is the *maximum* momentum you need. False. 0.305 is the *minimum* you need to guarantee animal recovery *assuming perfect shot placement*. Any variable in shot placement would only increase that number. Any less than 0.305 and you may not recover the animal *even with* perfect shot placement
How about eveyone juat uses an arrow setup that their confident in. Obviously if an arrow set up isnt working for you rather the deer dipped down and you spined it (just seena video of countless heavy arrow setups do this, and them say instant death like no you just paralyzed it and now need a follow up unless your a pos).
Personally i like my setup 434gr, titanium insert, 2 blade 125grain single bevel broadheads. 281fps and produces around 70#KE, i try not to hit bone, which ive seen some of your heavy arrow guys take some pretty questionable shot becuase they havw a heavy arrow and think they can shoot through anything.
I shoot alot of 3D also and don't want 2 different arrow setups and my current works great for both hunting and 3D.
But 8f your shooting lighter arrow setups you should ahoot mechanicals, it take way to much KE to even open them and now your left with 15#s of KE to kill the animal.
I follow most of the 12 steps of the ashby reports, just not heavy, i hit the rest of them 18% FOC, perfect arrow flight, structural integrity, broadhead mechanical advantage, always sharpend my broadheads the night before i go out even if its just a couple passes on the strop, and so on. If 8 have to take a shot while on the ground indont want a tree branch to get in my way i like the flatter trajectory. But this is all my personal preference, but i would aim for bone just because you have a heavy arrow setup cause most of yall thats all you got and forget about the other 11 factors, got a garbage arrow with aluminum inserts, not paper tuned, just a heavy a** point up front lol, f*ck it 750 grains i dont need to worry about the other stuff its heavy i can punch right through that shoulder knuckle bone now you just injured it cause your an idiot, you might breack that knuckle but your not going through it ever, im not talking about the scapula but the actual knuckle bone. Ive seen rages on sub 400gr go through scapulas btw doent mean you should try it though lol.
At the end of the day if your happy with your setup and making ethical shoot and its working then cool why change your setup.
I switched to heavy, HEAVY arrow setup this year. I will every day of the week sacrifice a .10 of a second at 40 yds to gain 2 things, 1) the ability to split bone with no problem just in case it's a little far forward and 2) the heavier arrow silenced my bow by 20 decibels! It is deadly quiet! Which negates the .10 of second slower speed.
I laugh when I watch these videos of bowhunters releasing arrows with the "BOING" sound.
I don't shoot at animals farther than 40 yards, even though I can. Tired of helping neighbor after neighbor track and never get the wounded deer shot at 50-60 yds. I want the no-question arrow that will blow through without needing to have the perfectly placed shot. Don't get me wrong, I practice everyday, I group them tight. But things happen in the stand. I want the backup plan arrow setup, not the one that hits bone and 24" of my 30" arrow is sticking out of the deer as it runs away. I want it to pass through every single time. Same reason I hunt with a .308 with ballistic tips and not a .223 during rifle season.
Will never ever go back to light arrows.
What's your FOC? That's the penetration. You mention splitting bone, that has to do with broadhead, tanto tip specifically works best. But I shoot a doe last year with a 414 grain arrow. The only thing I saw after I shot, was the other deer standing there, my arrow sticking out of the ground and a dead doe 20 yards away. Don't blame arrows on lack of practicing. Maybe get a crossbow so you don't hit the shoulder.
@@theincredible9168 My FOC is just over 21%
I shoot 250 gr Cutthroats sharpened until they are beyond razor sharp, they do have the Tanto tip. Did you read my entire comment? I practice everyday and can, and do, stack the arrows side by side regularly out beyond 40 yards. The truly experienced hunter knows anything, ANYTHING can happen in the stand even if you put in 20 hrs of practice a day. Yes, I have had pass-thru shot with sub 450 gr arrows. Perfect shots between the ribs don't need much, but I want the guaranteed arrow. Heavy arrows with one piece C.O.C. broadheads and high FOC have been proven to bust and even slice through bone and keep on going. Perfectly placed shots are great, but they don't always happen. I'm planning and setting up for those unexpected occasions so I still will have the deer die within 100 yards... or closer. I do this out of respect for the animal I pursue. Every hunter out there should be setting up their equipment for the most deadly set-up they can create, not the "this is good enough" set-up.
Been looking an fuckin around a bunch with research on arrows as far as weight. This is by far the best technical spec video I’ve found.
Not a light arrow fan and not a heavy arrow fan. Sitting at around 460. I still have 66lbs of KE left at 60 yards which is more than plenty. I’ve shot and hit bone with light arrows and didn’t get penetration and I’ve shot and hit bones with heavy arrows and didn’t get penetration. Shot placement is key. So many people get on the “70lb bow and no penetration with mechanicals” train but there is so much more that goes into it (draw length,brace height, and just overall efficiency of the bow). I have a Hoyt that generates 65lbs of KE at the bow at a 70lb draw weight (short draw length) and an Elite that generates 78 with the same arrow and weight. Having an argument for just draw weight alone is ignorant.
Interesting data! Question though, why do so many adult male bow hunters, pulling 70 lbs and expandable broadheads, not getting pass throughs?
Some of those hunters do get pass throughs, but if they are honest, they are shooting an arrow that the industry would consider on the heavy side. Most likely pushing the 500 g mark.
What it boils down to, is shoot what you want to in terms of arrow weight and broadhead type and understand where you need to hit the animal.
And pray that plan “B” doesn’t present itself.
All I know is that heavy arrows with cut on contact, slender profile broadheads are devastating on large bone, when things don’t go as planned.
When your shots are under 25 yrds, heavy is a great way to go.
If you want to shoot beyond 30 yds and such, probably not the best setup.
That “overkill” can help against bone or marginal shots. Yes shot placement is key but we’re hunting animals that you can’t always predict what’s going to happen at impact.
not interested in shooting anything over 40yds for ETHICAL reasons, also going to shoot about a .600g arrow, Ohh those are your front shoulders, didnt matter. NEXT
You can't ignore the efficiency of the broadhead. Those energy suggestions are meaningless. The function of Momentum, FOC, ferrule over shaft dia, and broadhead type creates penetration.
I just wrote a whole essay and deleted it. Lmao. It’s pointless to share so much opinion. Everyone will do what they believe. Thank you for sharing this video, it further cements my thoughts on the subject.
The pro have said over and over.. you only need 450 max.
Speed matter with fast animals..
Moose, not so much..
My moose arrow is 440 and my deer arrow is 350
All of this is great… but where does that “it only takes ‘xyz’ amount of momentum to pass through ‘xyz’” … says who? How did they figure that out? And is that accounting for any bone? If they came to that assumption with gel then throw that whole conclusion in the toilet. You can’t just say “if you have THIS amount of momentum, you’re passing through.” No, no you’re not. I like all the other data but the conclusion was based off of that momentum standard which is probably a load of poopy.
I really enjoy watching videos like this, the creating and collecting of data, crunching of numbers and the comparison of that data.
The only issue, who determines what amount of slug is enough? I’m guessing this number isn’t very accurate based on the overwhelming number of videos across UA-cam of deer running off with 6” of arrow in them. This is more often than not on shots that do t encounter heavier density bone. What happens when these poorly penetrating arrows encounter bone?
This video is misleading and some might even consider it irresponsible from a conservation standpoint. To much evidence showing the 300 ish arrow isn’t “totally fine” as you stated.
Speed is nearly a moot point at hunting average distances
Glad I'm sasquach I'm slinging 554gr arrows at 291fps. 32.5" draw at 78lb draw
TOF is not superior to a more efficient, heavy arrow for big game. You also rely on KE stats for killing ability but KE doesn't kill...the broadhead does and we can tap a marvelous plethora of hunters shooting rockets only to bounce back off their animal.
Tell the whole story and please stop being disingenuous to established science.
Whoever came up with those momentum charts was obviously assuming a broadside shot between the ribs. Anyone who has watched hunting videos knows that at 30 yards and a light setup, you have a lot of arrows that do not pass through even though they meet the criteria on that table. That's because the physics of animal penetration are relating to like 50 variables. The "sell" of the heavy arrow is "what if I dont hit perfect." which most people don't.
If you only plan to take a 30 yard shot, your velocity is not so different, and your ability to shot from any angle, through dense bones, and still be lethal is drastically increased.
Doesn't mean heavy is right for everyone, but it is probably better for most folk with a range finder taking 30 yard and in shots.
The archery industry has preached speed for decades and they are just mad bc they didn’t think of the high FOC 600+ grains. Go back and get data on the percentage of recoveries per shot back then and do the same thing for the heavy arrow guys now and let’s see that percentage! Guarantee that’s some data you don’t want to make public. I know you’re gonna say "well the bows are faster now and hoopity hoopla" well my 710 grain set up is shooting just as fast as the all aluminum overdraw setups from the 90’s so that’s out the window.
Now put it at realistic bow hunting range inside 40yards. Less than 1 second is splitting hairs. To anyone reading this…..Read the Ashby reports for yourself and keep this in mind…. Shoot the arrow with the trajectory you are comfortable with. That’s it
Discussing this like you can be a deers reaction. You can’t beat the deers reaction. Heavy arrows are built for when you don’t make a good shot and heavy bone. Insurance policy if you will.
Oh, what am I thinking, I forgot hunters don’t make bad shots. Duh!
A heavy arrow isn’t the same as a high FOC arrow. You can have a 550 grain arrow that has 8% FOC or same weight arrow but have a FOC at 15-20%. the flight characteristics of those two arrows will be different yet penetration potential is technically the same. The thing people don’t get and won’t until they listen to videos on dear gear podcast with Dorge is how letoff plays a role on arrow flight due to the high power cycle on the bow, how this huge power cycle can affect the compression of the arrow and is greatly amplified by a high FOC arrow. This all equall to decrease efficiency or loss of energy. You guys did this test with the MMT arrow ( concept arrow) and would have been better to do a comparison to a another arrow company side by side and slow speed camera to show my high FOC can be detrimental to arrow flight.
Gaining nothing on the heavier arrow? Sounds like someone didn’t consider what happens when an arrow hits a decent sized bone, which happens frequently.
So, if you’re hunting whitetails, even a 444 gr arrow is a complete waste. If you gain nothing from going to a 550 gr arrow. How can you justify not using the lighter arrow? Based on the data you compiled?
I've seen people shoot 435 grain arrows out of 70# compound and have their arrows completely bounce off whitetail, so I'm good.
I watched this video half in the bag and three sheets to the wind before 9am on a Saturday morning, but this was the most informative video I've come across yet to explain what arrow weight I need to kill an animal.
Also they idea of wasted energy isnt really true. Doesn't take into account difference in individual animal size or shot placement what you're shooting into . Shooting conditions... Your test are okay.. You're just missing alot of stuff..
Reducing time to hit sounds good, but were talking about tenths of a second. How often does the deer move and you miss a vital by an inch? If this does happen to you, then by all means go for lighter arrows. But don't just follow the crowd without doing your own tests. This depends very heavily on your hunting situation and if you are already getting good hits with your current setup, these numbers are all meaningless.
The thing you are missing is the ranch fairy and his let’s say followers are shooting what they call a plan B arrow. Meaning if human error or just real world situations come into play. There is a better chance of still killing the animal which should be every bow hunters end game.
However I do agree with you, there needs to be a happy medium.
But I don’t think 377 is it. No matter what the charts say if you get into any type of heavy bone with a 377 gn arrow past 30 yd your chances of failure are very high.
Even on medium game.
Hit the scapula on that deer at 372 grains and 60 yards and see what happens. It might take that arrow .65 seconds to get there, but the speed of sound takes .18 seconds. That deer has a full half second to react to the sound of your bow going off and change your point of impact. 372 grain arrow is bad advice.
I have killed probably 60 deer with a 355g arrow and a rage/mega meat and never have i ever had a problem with penetration if you think you need a heavy arrow it just shows your complete lack of knowledge on bowhunting
Idk about the states fpe/momentum for the "toughest game" ashby killed lota of buffalo with like 36fpe and .440 slug
It would be cool if you would see this comment. I’m trying to find a chart to talk to a buddy about trajectory and he’s a very visual person and I would like to see if anybody or if you have done these same numbers on a trajectory chart where it shows a graph of what the trajectory would look like at these numbers, if you know of somewhere or if you’ve done that, could you let me know where I see that?
I'm tired of the manipulating stuff so it comes out like you guys want it. your Broadhead will take away that momentum when you hit if you're using mechanic you use losing a lot of power so those numbers should be based on whether it's a fixed head or mechanical
If those suggested slug weights assume a perfect shot with zero bone hits, then they aren’t realistic. Sacrificing a few tenths of a second buys you a LOT of insurance on penetration.
The classic idealism vs reality conundrum.
This is a great video. I’m more curious now about the foc, broadhead weight/type recommended especially for the 300 and 400 grain arrows. Penetration tests have been done and lots of video evidence shows that those arrow weights do not equate to full pass through on whitetails.
I do understand that it is not necessary to have a 900 grain arrow for whitetails, but I personally don’t trust light weight arrows with mechanical broadheads after wounding deer, due to lack of penetration, and shots were not hitting shoulder bones.
I guess my point is I switched to a 580 grain arrow with a single bevel broadhead and haven’t needed to blood trail a deer in 3 years. I’ve shot 7 total during that time (none have jumped the string), the longest a deer ran from the spot it was shot was 54 yards. That doesn’t prove my way is the best. It has just worked for me since I have implemented it.
I agree. People forget you have to subtract the ke needed to open mechanical in these test.
i shoot a 380gr arrow and honestly cant remember the last time i did not get a quick pass thru with my arrow (wasting ALOT of energy) buried deep in the dirt.
@@yourmomma2995 So a 380 grain arrow and I’m assuming a 100 grain broadhead. That is still lighter, but I could see that working on only the most ideal shots, excluding any quartering-to or frontal shots on deer.
What type of broadhead do you use?
@@isLife-nn5yl i shoot 100gr fixed heads now (380gr total arrow weight),` but for many years i used rocket 100gr steelhead broadheads, always a pass thru with them too. I NEVER shoot at a deer that is quartering too or a frontal shot. i learned my lesson probably 30 years or so ago. i shot a big 9 pointer quartering to me (i was young and dumb) i got one lung and liver, it was an evening hunt. i got down at dark to track him and kicked him up, so i drove home and came back to get him at first daylight, i found him near where i kicked him up but unfortunately the coyotes found him during the night. they started eating him from the anus in, the meat was ruined but my crazy friend had a pet cougar, and she got that meat. im not concerned about getting a pass-thru on those crappy shots (with any weight or even a gun), i wont take them only because they are VERY low percentage shots, and i cant think of a worse feeling than wounding a deer for no reason other than my own stupidity. i will only take quartering to or broadside (extremely high percentage) shots now, which in my opinion are the only reasonable shots to take. if a deer doesn't offer me a proper shot i can live with that much easier than i can live with myself for wounding a deer.
@@yourmomma2995 Ok, my experience with any mechanical broadhead is the exact opposite of yours. I have shot at plenty of broadside and quartering away deer with NAP and Rage heads that don’t kill deer. That includes a light shaft and flimsy spine. I actually don’t mind any angle of shot now with a stiff spine, high foc, heavier shaft/insert, and a good 150 grain broadhead (obviously fixed and single bevel). Again, we are only sharing our experiences in the woods. A light weight arrow may work for your hunting. I get impatient and want to shoot a deer when they come into range regardless of the angle of the deer.
With a firearm, I see no reason to not take any shot offered. I say that because I live in Illinois so I only use a 12 gauge slug or muzzleloader. I have never had a deer not expire, except 1 for when I was a young boy. I have tagged out for many seasons now and can say that number is 37 deer.
We are just sharing our experiences and the scientific proof may provide more clear evidence to what is normal.