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Are small subwoofers better than big subwoofers?
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- Опубліковано 13 лип 2024
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In this video we find out if big subwoofers are better than small subwoofers by comparing four 6.5's with 2 8's vs 1 12.
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0:00 Introduction
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Yeah usually a smaller woofers have faster response in tighter bass for sound quality but will not go as deep and if you're doing it for sound quality never ever use a ported box or bandpass always a sealed for SQ 💯
@marcfavell I think you are repeating some myths. You can have amazing sound quality with sealed, ported and infinite baffle set ups.
For a great SQ set up, I find that one 8 in a well built box is enough to fill the cabin with enough bass. My days of epic bass are long behind me. Now its about stealth, SQ and power draw, eliminating rattles and hums and listening to the song as the musician intended. BUT I do understand that people love crazy bass and its fun because I sure did.
This comment. Get them midbass away from those doors. Front subwoofer if you can. Underseat midbass or infinite baffle midbass. Sealed box for tight clean response. Those days of getting loud isn't hard anymore. 2 8" can get 140db. That's insane for sq, already too loud.
🙌💯
Getting loud is easy, getting low is a different animal
Real car SQ is similar thinking to home audiophiles. Typically they don't want overpowering bass which is why the smaller speakers work out fine. However, larger speakers would also work out fine, just won't need as much power in order to blend the bass in. Since larger subs cost more, why pay that extra cost when the smaller ones work fine and cost less. So, it's really not a matter of smaller being better for SQ, just makes more sense to not have a larger subwoofer that will never see it's full potential.
I listen to a lot of older stuff and have mixed feelings on the listening the way intended. Many engineers used to adjust things for the primarily cheap stereos from back in the day. I like rebass stuff but it does often kill the feel of the song. I have started doing my own edits that try to peserve the sound of the song but make it not sound like crap
I did a similar test for a science fair project back in the 80s. What i found back then was speaker placement was just as important as size and quantity such that 2 *6.5 speakers next to each was just as loud as 3 *6.5 spaced out. I imagine this was because of acoustic coupling. This was the theory used in the creation of high end polk audio speakers.
I'm betting that placing those 4 * 6.5 in a square pattern would outperform the 8s or the 12. This may not have much relevance with car audio however there was always a debate that you could never hear low frequencies within the confinement of a vehicle and thus transducers were better. Maybe a topic for a future video.
Ive always been partial to sealed subwoofer boxes. Yes a ported box may hit harder and get louder but a seaed box just sounds better to me. I listen to mostly metal and hard rock.
I've always gone sealed.
Sealed boxes are made for the kind of music you listen to, metal and rock. It wouldn't sound good in a ported box
My personal experience is while a ported box will always play louder, the overall response of a ported box has bigger peaks AND valleys than a sealed box. So the sealed box will be able to hit the very low notes better than the ported box will.
The compromise of course is that the sealed box will be larger than the ported at the same tuning frequency
@@RobByrnes not always. Sub I currently have wants .8 for a sealed box and 1.25 for a ported box.
From a long time 12 Volt Industry veteran and car audio fanatic .. . great job on this video IMHO. The technical info was outstanding and unique.
Port tuning calculations generally dont account for frictional losses, that's why your boxes always turn out being tuned a bit lower than predicted.
That makes sense. It's a fairly consistent effect.
@@DIYAudioGuy If you are using winisd for the port length, then it can be a bit inaccurate, but only sometimes. The software i trust with the port length is hornresp
@@LatvianVideo I've been meaning to check that out.
I been using 12 volt box tune calculator and always works pretty good. When I run a frequency test it's always loudest close to where I tuned it on the calculator
Bass box pro👍 by Harris. It has a end correction factor that's available on port tuning section.
Always go for the largest driver possible if you want lows. 8's can do it but they'll never sound as deep and full as a larger driver. Personally my favorite driver is the kicker l7 q-class. Unfortunately no longer in production. Insanely good sound quality. Hit lows with authority. My single l7Q 12 did a 143db on music with the gain set to 700 watts and played from 25 to 85 hertz.
In terms of SPL, one thing most people don't realize or understand is that for any given setup, in order to see a 3dcb gain in output, you need to double the power. If your 2 18's do a 147 at 2000 watts, if you change NOTHING else, to hit 150dcb you need 4,000 watts. To hit 153, 8000 Watts. Power doesn't really mean much, you can make MUCH bigger gains by changing less expensive variables, which you showed really well here, especially when you accidently tossed 1000+ watts to the 12 haha.
@@casey360360 this is not factually true it is however a good rule of thumb but not always the case. You can gain Decibels with changes in humidity and isobaric pressure!
@@tacka73 *minor changes.
And yes, it is factually true. It’s called Acoustic Theory. Decibels are not a linear measurement, they are logarithmic. The entire logarithmic function behind decibels is based on +3dcb requires double the energy input.
@casey360360 Can you explain this from this video 10:24 106 watts 125.3 dB
10:28 300 watts 126.4dB 3 x wattage 1.1 dB rise
10:37 620 watts 128.6dB twice previous wattage 2.2dB rise
Those are facts not hearsay please please explain?
@@tacka73 For one there's compression in real world. Various factors like compression can cause that on paper +3dB gain to be lost. Leaving you with much lower gains.
Coil heating up, running out of linear excursion, etc. Could be any one or multiple things at once. But doesn't change the fact on paper you gain +3dB for doubling the power.
@@JoshM7 that is my point exactly on Paper with the following equation β(dB)=10log10(II0) but in real life that becomes a rule of thumb because other factors come into play so by saying double the power double the spl (+3dB) is not true and can only be 100% factual when every other thing is perfect 👍🏼
I used 4 6.5" woofers in a sealed box for a regular cab GMC truck. Built a sealed "truck box" with the bottom spaced off the floor far enough to mount the woofers down firing. Works great for a tall driver with a bench seat in a reg cab. I also took a prefab ported box for a newer Super Duty, flipped it up, made some mounting feet and did 2 MOJO 8" in my personal reg cab 2500HD. The only way to really get a high excursion woofer behind the seat. Now I have plenty of bass and my seat barely lost any space. So, yes, the big woofers make more output per dollar, but sometimes the space available requires some creative solutions. Great video!
The mechanical components of a speaker, such as the cone, magnet, surround, and voice coil, are the biggest contributors to harmonic distortion. Drivers with lower distortion may sound cleaner, but some may describe them as less exciting or more sterile. Harmonic distortion is usually inaudible below 1% THD, and a well-designed speaker with quality parts should have a THD below 2% in its intended frequency range... Another useful tool and I think your ears are hearing it is the waterfall text on each speaker. It can show where the speaker is holding out or onto a resonance or has out of the harmonic range sound or ring.
Ahhh , coffee and a DIY Audio Guy vid . Great way to start a Sunday 😉
Thanks for watching.
@@DIYAudioGuy you know it , one of my favorite car audio channels.
That seems to be the epic battle of the 6.5 sub, port relationship ratio in terms of area and needed depth.
They are still fun builds to watch!
Larger subs have more moving mass, and as such typically have a lower Fs, which will allow them to work more efficiently at lower frequencies, particularly when used in ported enclosures. Larger subs also have more cone area, and often, more excursion than the same make and model of sub in a smaller size, which allows the larger sub to move more air. The moving of more air equates to more output or volume, so while a larger sub may be able to get louder at lower volumes, pretty much any sub can produce notes lower than the range of human hearing. The simple fact is that a larger sub can produce these bottom octave frequencies are greater output, so it's louder, or more audible to the listener than a smaller sub would be at the same power input. In short, a larger sub does not play more deeply per se, but it does tend to have greater output at those lowest audible notes. A smaller sub is faster.
This is just bs. The speed or detail of a sub (how fast it reacts to changes in the input signal) is a matter of numerous factors, the least of which tends to be the moving mass of the driver. How "fast" a driver is, depends more on several factors of the amplifier, the speaker, and the enclosure in which the speaker is housed.
The amplifier's slew rate, damping factor, and dynamic headroom (reserve power, dependant on the quality of the amp's power supply in large part) are factors in controlling the speaker.
The enclosure alignment chosen for the sub will have a large effect on the driver's response as well. For example, a ported enclosure tends to have more transient delay than a sealed box, whereas if you want the best driver control, an aperiodic enclosure is your best choice.
The speaker itself has several factors that determine it's "speed" as well, the largest of which is motor control, or "BL." The BL of a speaker is the biggest factor in how well the cone movement is controlled. BL is the actual cross product of the magnet field B with the conductor length L. It is not a scalar, but rather a vector. Combine this vector with the current I and you’ll get exactly the force (up or down according to the DC or AC input). But with the way amplifiers are designed, the current I of the speaker is never constant, only the voltage is. It is also not entirely important to know what the force is because is changes so rapidly. In any event, the BL squared divided by the resistance of the voice coil Re in fact gives us a generic force factor in newtons squared per watt. This number is relative for all speakers and the higher the number, the more force a motor can invoke on a cone with the same input power. Its important to distinguish that BL and Re are related much like inductance and Re are. 32Tm over 8 ohms is identical to 16Tm over 2 ohms, namely 128 N²/W. All other things equal (moving mass and cone size in particualr), A higher BL²/Re will increase the sensitivity of the driver which is a generally a very good thing. BL Curve is a graph of the magnetic strength of the speaker's motor structure across the frequency spectrum of the speaker's operating range.
In short, a smaller sub is not automatically faster than a larger sub. Which is better; several small subs, or one large sub?
Well, this also depends on a few things. We'll assume right off that you have the room for either configuration in the vehicle. What you want to compare is driver sensitivity, which tells you how much sound you get from the speaker (output) per watt of input. Another thing to consider is cone area. Compare cone atea by finding the surface area of each speaker (π*R²) and add the sums together if using multiple drivers. Compare this with the surface area of the single sub, then compare the combined excursions (Xmax) as well. This will tell you the total surface area of the sub(s) along with their excursion(s) and sensitivity, which are the main factors, if using the same type of box for both setups. Typically I prefer to go with the larger sub(s) whenever possible. Larger subs don't play as high as smaller subs.
This is also untrue.
Correct!
The "standard" equation for vent length calculations loses accuracy when the volume of the vent is 10% or more of the volume of the box, and actual Fb ends up being a bit lower than target Fb in those circumstances. Also proximity of the vent to the sides of the box is also going to increase its effective length. Conclusion: if you're aiming for a specific Fb, design the vent in such a way that it can be shortened if required.
Thanks for the info!
👏👏👏🥰❤❤👏👏🤔i see.....an actuall intelectuall
I’ve always been a single sub guy. Pulled out my whole system recently for a rebuild. Upgraded to a Skar VXF 15 in a custom ported box. Pairing it with a JP23. I’ve been dying to hear it but I have to wait until I finish everything else.
It sure depends on what you want out of it. The FS of smaller version of the same driver will be higher and that won't help you play low, even if you still play loud. More drivers means more complicated enclosure builds and wiring, probably more cost. I tend to use the largest subwoofer I can to fit well in a well suited enclosure, for where it will be used.
Also that xmax. Some drivers 8-12" versions are all the same motor and spider size and all that changes is mor cone/lower FS.
In the past 20 years, after experimenting with various setups ranging from a single 10-inch subwoofer up to an 18-inch subwoofer and about 4 setups that include dual 15-inch subs, I experienced situations when a single 18" (3kw amp and 1.2kw speaker measured used power about 2kw)beating dual 15"(3.6kw amp, 1kw speaker, all amp power used!) and a better single 15" (3kw amp, 1.5kw speaker, 2.5kw used) beating the single 18" took me to the conclusion that size and power numbers don't matter.
There are a ton of confounding variables. It's not just size and power.
I agree i feel in a Room or at live events is probably the only instances where 18 to 21 inch woofers are better and where the extra cone area is king.
@@erikbritz8095This is a fact. You are correct. The more surface area you have in a cone formulation, the more air you can move. Which is essential for reaching a concert venue sized audience....
@@robertlee4809 Yes i believe its more about cone displacement however we know with Pro Audio woofers the 12 inch to 15 inch subs don't have enough displacement and i feel after my tests using car audio in a room that even a 12 inch car sub would need a massive amount more cone displacement to match a 15 inch car sub in a room etc.
Hi trying to understand, did you mean the single 18 beat dual 15s? Or that a 15 could beat an 18? Thanks
Unless your system is capable of reproducing (inaudible) infrasonics then stop feeling 'special'. Space Shuttle infrasonics WILL influence your bladder control....ah, but those frequencies are below human hearing. Hearing yes but acoustic feeling and experiential audio 'special effects' no.
Im running four 8inch Cerwin Vega subwoofers in a seald box under the seat of my F-150 super cab off of a 1200 watt amp. And it sounds great on everything.
Sead boxes sound better for rock, metal, blues and jazz. Subs in sealed boxes require less airspace and the boxes are much smaller because you dont have to add 20% extra space for the ports.
People are surprised when they find out how much room a properly sized Port will take up.
your ideas are incorrect, but your choice in "vegas" is a 11 out of 10!!❤
CV subs are great, but they really shine in a ported enclosure. Of course Im not to familiar with the new ones out even though I do have the vmaxx just not installed and many other CV subs in my collection. Sealed boxes are great though for the music you mentioned but they can play quite low and loud as well. I would nearly double the power to the subs in a sealed box as long as it is clean undistorted power.
Wish I could get something like that under The rear seat of my '05 Tundra. There's just zero room.
I agree, I'll always go for the biggest sub(s) I can fit and not lose too much usable space, which does vary vehicle to vehicle. I took out the bench seat in the back of my extended cab 98 K2500 in favor of a dual 12" sub center console box & bucket seats. I haven't gotten around to the bucket seats yet.... But hey it sounds GOOD in there, and it pushes enough air I can tune the box with my windows 😅I'm also adding 2 6x9's in the back side panels, and two 6.5's up front on the trans tunnel for better mid & high range. I "Technically" loos two seats that way (the front is a split bench, I never really fold up the front center console) but I don't need 6 seats in an extended cab, 4 is more than enough.
Tons and tons of work!! this is priceless. Kudos man!
Thanks!
Car cabin,trunk where placement of box,boxes are speakers....it all plays a part.. That's why when Joe blow shows up having built his own system and it sounds great people admired them! Face it,having g a killer system you can hear before you see is awesome!
How will this compare if you use passive radiators instead of ports? You don't have to worry about port dimensions since you can simply put the radiator where you want and tune the mass to get to the equivalent port diameter/length.
From an old audio guy, great video!
4-6 1/2 woofers if you installed a base radiators would be a awesome set up
I think that would be cool.
I'm working on a 10-in with a passive radiator of the same size currently. My thinking tells me I can get nearly twice the sound w/half the power.. & @,½ the price.. @@DIYAudioGuy.
I Ga a cutting edge system that Kenwood, Kicker, and Polk all wanted articles on but I had no wants for that. So my Subs which were absolute killers were the Dual Competition 10s in their box fired by a Kenwood 1021 amp. But here is the thing Damping factor on that amp was unheard of. It controlled those subs so well that they would make your heart skip a beat. For all the reps from those companies they would sit in front seat of my cougar and when the song came on with immediate thump every one of them scrambled trying to exit as the chest compression was so dang hard. Heck we had a hard time pinning down a metalicca noise until we found the steal rear seat cross member was torquing from the pounding it was taking. Excuse the memory loss but that amp was running around 6-800 watts continuous with peaks over a grand the way we had it set up but Control of those Subs is what made it so deadly. Subs any bigger than 10s start having issues with flex and ability to control the surface which is where distortion rolls in. Like I said sorry about any info I misspeak abioit but it was almost 40 yrs ago. By far the best sounding system those companies had ever heard in the day as it was complete silence at full volume in between songs but man when it was in go mode nothing but absolute pure clean music at outrageous but not obnoxious levels. Clean and Power will always be my choice. Cheers
I’m a big fan of 8’s especially when you get them in the right ported box. Usually they are good for moderate bass while sounding good and being quick on beat.
Would love a comparison between stock subwoofers vs custom or modified subwoofers like from robot underground etc
I'd be down for that comparison myself
Personally I prefer 10s for compromise between speed, accuracy and deep bass
Preach!!!
I will go with dual 8 inches , I prefer average SPL levels and lower distortion, My taste is great music not loud music, distortion levels is everything, I prefer to avoid ear fatigue so dual 8 is my pick
Looking at your graphs, it looks like the truck peaks around 60hz. That sounds about right.
It seems you've got no cabin gain, though.
I don't know what that particular vehicles response curve should look like.
There's always a chance that there's an issue with your microphone or the REW software settings.
I think you should take a sealed sub and fire it out of an open door to get a free air response curve. Then put that enclosure in the backseat, close up the truck and do another response curve.
This way we can compare them and actually see the effect of the vehicle.
You also have a homemade electrical RTA so you can see the signal going in to and out of the amplifier. I do as well and sometimes it incorrectly reads the signal coming off of my head unit, but reads properly on the output of the amp. It probably has something to do with signal impedance. Anyway, this would allow you to verify that there's a flat signal coming out of the amp.
I don't know if your using your dsp and everything is set flat. The above test should tell us that.
I've also noticed that using pink noise isn't the best option for frequencies under a 100 Hz. I think setting REW to measure peak SPL and then using a sine wave sweep might be more accurate.
It's also possible you may just have to do a lot of tweaking to bring down those upper frequencies and boost the lower frequencies to get the kind of frequency response your looking for.
Hope that helps.
Great video,i always told customers multiple small drivers are crisoer,tighter,more controlled,but if u just wanna get loud...go big!!as a retired long time spl competitor i love these 12v channels
Smaller subs have to move further in and out to perform at the same level as a larger subwoofers, therefore eliminating any possibility of being crisper, tighter, or more controlled then the larger subwoofers. Your information from way outdated information where larger subwoofers once used the same motors throughout the sizes and the larger subs didn't have appropriate motors. This is no longer the case and larger subwoofers have appropriate motors and therefore out perform smaller subs in every possible way. Larger subs are very much crisp, tight and easily controlled now.
Thanks for watching
The debate rages on.
@DIYAudioGuy imo the farther the cone area from the pole piece,the less control the cone has,18s are loud af,but never sound accurate like 8s,10s,12s.just a simple ear test I can hear how much more punchy kick drums are with smaller drivers
@jjthomas9656 Simply not true, placebo effect. If you are suggesting subwoofer cones aren't rigid enough, have you ever seen what subwoofers can do to a vehicle? They literally can tear one apart and the subwoofer remains perfectly intact. I'd say the materials used in cones these days are plenty strong and capable and have no issue with flex the further it gets from the voice coil. When I was at Slamology, the big subs would slam instantly no problem, your body would feel the impact and you could feel every hit of the drums without delay. I'd say that's pretty darn punchy, so I don't know what exactly you're getting at that big subs can't be accurate or punchy. You really, truly believe these name brands are going to put out subs that cannot recreate subwoofer frequencies accurately? It would literally ruin their brand.
Great content as always. This dives into some really technical stuff, some of which was new to me! Always learning when it comes to audio, as there's always some technical nuance unexplored. Interesting results too!
Great educational video and all but very disappointed you didn't throw the 10s in the mix...
The 10s would be a interesting comparison because of the different builds you could do to compare these all together.
Single ported, single sealed, duel ported, duel sealed.
If you have enough room for 2 8s you have enough room for a single 12 and if you had enough room for a single 12 you could still squeeze in (smaller) duel 10s
You can click right here and sign up for patreon and I can make that happen. Https://patreon.com/DIYaudioguy
Awsome vid!!! I would be curious on how 3 8s would have performed. I personally think you would habe got a tad louder , still a reasonably small footprint, an possibly take advantage of getting closer to the low notes the 12 probably produced.
These 2 8's nearly kept up with a single 10.
This is the best apples to apples comparison video between different sizes of subwoofers with similar cone and power. Always looking forward to your informative videos, keep up the great work.
Thanks
9:10 distortion graph:
multiple drivers couple acoustically and produce higher output w/ less work resulting in substantially lower harmonic distortion for a given SPL. you get smaller cones to perform as a single cone that's larger than the sum of their cones' surface area (increased sensitivity).
but that doesn't apply to the sound output coming out of the port of an enclosure w/ multiple drivers as the port is a single sound source.
if each small driver has its own enclosure, then the separate vents would couple acoustically and the distortion in the low fq range (port output) would be (substantially) lower than that of a single driver, just like the graph shows above 80Hz.
Thank you for your wisdom speaker man 🙏
Thanks for watching.
When the 12" is played you instantly hear the 40Hz tone. Even though the 6.5 & 8 had lower measured distortion, by ear it just seems like they only play the upper harmonics
I just did the same experiment for myself recently! Did 2 different box setups for ch5 on my soundstream amp using Audiopipe DVC subs. A dual 6.5 vented box @ 4ohm drawing 210watts and a single 15 sealed/stuffed box @ 2ohm drawing the full 350watts. The 15 did beat out the two 6.5's, not by a huge margin though. It may be that Im just digging the sealed sound better. Im gonna now rework the smaller box and slim it up so I can swap it in when Im hauling large items and still have full sound.
That's a good idea.
@@DIYAudioGuy have you ever mixed sub sizes in a single enclosure? Theres a JL home sub currently on offer setup that way. Just a curiosity
@@AllboroLCD I don't recommend that. It takes a lot of work to make it sound right.
There's no replacement for displacement
Love your videos! Keep the coming!!
Thanks for watching.
I prefer 12s. I rock Fi Neo 3.5 12s. I might try Savard subs. I love Fi car audio but Fi is going through a transition so I’m going to be temporarily out of luck if I thermal a voice coil or ripped the spider.
Im into huge subwoofers but I once heard a guy with a bunch of 8" subwoofers hitting over a 155db it was loud.
Well.... I just found my new obsessive hobby! Always enjoyed that bass but this guy speaks on a 'nother level! I'm familiar with a lot of the technical terms but when put all together..... Yep! I'm an amateur!!! Totally awesome video! Bass on my friends, bass on!
You are far too kind.
Brother correct the Winisd internal setup, many guys say winisid is not accurate & that it tunes to low but in truth its user error for not defining parameters correctly.
🎉🎉🎉 another great video, pitty the drivers are not more closely matched in parameters.
i built a subwoofer box based on a stig carlsson QA-51 it takes a 7 inch driver and i scaled the box to fit an 8, the original box has a flat eq all the way from like 50hz all the way to 20kz, box is tuned to 35, the sub box seems to be lower
I have run 18" in my last 3 systems. I just prefer a larger; preferably, high efficiency driver. Presently I have 2 pro audio 18" from Peavey and a 10" from GRS in my glovebox. But I'm thinking like a man from 20 years ago. The new small subs are impressive. Would definitely like to build an spl rig with them.
I think for sedans, a single 12 at 600w rms is all anyone will ever need. And most of the time it'll probably only be using 25-200w anyway
I'd love to get my hands on some of the market data from some of the larger companies. I imagine that the typical car audio consumer is running something like that and is quite happy with it.
One of your best shows yet👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽 truly enjoyed the “apples to apples “ comparison. Gives a more real idea of the options people can have.
Thanks for watching!
4:55 I like the fact that the cursor was over the 6.5 RMS rating the entire time he was talking about the power handling. 😅
10:20 It looks like the 8s are moving out of phase with each other. Might be the camera playing tricks with the movement.
Edit: He did have it showing previously, looked at video again.
Don't forget to measure car resonance. Mic the driver position and hit the steering wheel for the whump that's your vehicles resonance + interior space then adjust the box accordingly. Mix and cook . I really like using 4 ,,,8's,,, 2 ported 2 sealed 2 amps set with real time multi mic data. Tinnitus is a bitch
Right, when you put this in a different car everything changes.
wear earplugs
Man you have a awesome channel very educational and easy to follow hats off to you sir ❤and god bless you 🙏✌️
Thanks for watching!
I mean I like a bunch of smaller drivers, just built a 9 skar svr 8s 2:1 fourth order for my trunk and they get down, way cooler than just 4 12s (same cone area) but more of a pain in the but to wire gotta cut a bunch of holes and you need more power on multiple drivers than less bigger drivers (usually) but just depends on where you need to fit the box, what your precincts are aesthetics so on and so forth
I'm not competing I just want to listen to my music unreasonably loud 😂
That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
Underrated comment, i use a SPL figure just as a way to Quantify a setup to those who have not heard it. But thats it.
What about "group delay" which subjectively I would think translates to "punchiness"? I assume the smaller subs would be stronger here ... but I don't really know, and how important that might be vs the type of music one listens to? Any comment on that?
This was cool fun video. Can imagine it was a lot of work. Thanks Justin!
It was, I actually started on this video back in January. I had to build all the boxes before I could do the head-to-head test.
i ran like 700 watts through my single 8" sub pretty much everyday and it handled it just fine.
Perfect timing
Sound (to one's ear) is such a subjective thing and anyone who has been messing around with Car or even Home Audio for long enough can likely convince themselves that they prefer certain driver sizes for specific jobs. For example (for Car SQ Build), I have somehow convinced myself that I prefer 10's in a car with a ton of power and low crossover point, combined with a 3-way front stage consisting of 8" midbass so that I can feel the snare drum hit me in the chest. I like the sound of 5 1/4's over 6.5's, especially in a 3-way front stage and last but not least, the biggest tweeters that I can afford crossed over as low as can allow. I only like using 24db/oct high pass tweeter crossovers (as I prefer a lower x-over point, so it helps), but prefer 18db/oct slopes for everything else, both high/low pass as well as most band pass mids/midbass.
Being such a subjective thing that sound is, there are likely those out there that completely understand where I am coming from and others that look at what I wrote above and think that I am crazy, but I bet peo0ple still have their favorites regardless of what is 'correct' or 'right'......
Strange isn't it. How we can't even trust our own senses.
I agree completely. In my 30 years of being into car audio I’ve designed and built ported, sealed, infinite baffle, and bandpass setups with single and multiple drivers from 6.5” to 15”. I loved the utilitarian aspect of the infinite baffle setup the most having full use of my trunk, a sealed single 8” sounded best for SQ, and the ported dual 15” got the loudest.
Now that my priorities have changed in life, I have found that a single 10” in a ported box gives decent overall use to mostly satisfy my bass wants, but there are still days that I long for each of the other setups.
How is the difference in "punch" ?
None of them seem punchy to me.
You didn't show it, but your discount code works on the rap 10 as well. It looks like with the right box, you can make any of them sound good.
Yep, works for everything on the Savard website.
The single best video ever on this topic. End game.
Thanks, I really appreciate that. But I don't think this is the single best video on the topic. I think I need to make a couple of more trying out even more subwoofers. Pair of tens versus a single 15, that kind of thing.
Great video! Though 5-7 db is s pretty good difference! Gaining that much takes a bit change.
So there is no audible difference in loudness between them. Just what you prefer. I'd take the 12 because it probably sounds better at lower frequencies
This is awesome video. I kind of knew it's about volume power and box. It's nice to see this.
I'm wondering if the distortion changes with the amount of Watts relative to Max.
I believe the 4 6s would sound louder. the and harder.... smaller cone faster respond, but bigger cone can move more air. great video... I would go for the single 12 or dual 8...
cant trade area Vs quantity... but as you said if you dont have the space.. you are out of luck..
Smaller faster cone size is a myth.
Speed is not linked to weight.
If i owned a house, i would bury my subwoofer for my home theater system a few feet underground in my backyard.
My tiburon had 2 sealed 10's and a 12 inch centered , 2 ohm load, sweet
Cool!
I didn’t catch what your measurement rig was for the measurements you did in rew? Are you just using the Dayton umm6 usb mic ? Or are you using a similar mic connected via xlr going into an audio interface? Reason I mention this is because without the xlr mic and audio interface/soundcard doing anything more than rta measurements is challenging and also inaccurate. There is work around using the usb mic to get a few of the various measurements working in rew but it’s just a lot more work so the best to do is just play pink noise thru rew using the tone generator built in and taking the rta frequency response measurements 💙
Yup! The lower the distortion the better. BUT because it is not a full range speaker it depends. If you want to use a crossover and you want the subwoofer only reproduce lower than 55 Hz sounds then that 12" is in fact better but if you want to let it reproduce up to 100 Hz and higher (which I doubt) then it is worse.
Yep, it's kind of tricky.
Found a Mopar subwoofer on eBay and instaled under the back seat, of a quad cab Dodge ram 1500, 4x4,, have to keep the bass on the head unit turned all the way off, and still have big bass,..
I can tell you definitely know what you’re new rule of thumb make the box 20% smaller add more power 50% more make sure your comb on lines can you optimize your box centerpoint with the speakers I would go with the 112 should fit in a cubic foot or smaller if it’s one of the newer ones
Nope, make it 50% bigger. Use the same amount of power.
I think the issue with your tuning frequency is due to the fact that you use slot ports, that use the wall of the enclosure as part of the port. The effective length of the port can be significantly increased this way, so your guess is correct that the end correction is insufficient for that application. The german company Visation offers an English version of their speaker modeling software Boxsim for free. There you can type in port and enclosure dimensions of slot ports in more detail and it provides a more accurate tuning frequency in my experience (I think someone in some audio forum did an in depth testing with various enclosures). WinISD is always off with slot ports as the actual tuning will always be lower. This also has been my experience, so I am using a different formula whenever I build subs with slot ports.
I add an end correction in my spreadsheet.
@@DIYAudioGuydoes it work better?
I am still looking for a more accurate formula
Not Fair. For apples to apples you should've compared 6.5s with 4x 12 inchers
Great video, Very informative and to the point, Keep 'em coming!!!
Thanks for watching!
The charts mean nothing. 4 6.5s can't compare to one good 12. I have 4 strong 8s and they don't compare to 2 good 12s. I'm speaking from real world experience. The 8s don't suck at all, but they just will never hang with 12s. My 8s on music maxed out might hit 144db before clipping on a Sundown sfb5000. I also have 2 Sundown x12v3s, and they are louder and move way more air.
How do some of the DIY projects compare to some of the higher end Rel subs ?
I'm glad us old heads still dig bass
Let's be real: No one will be happy until we have a subwoofer measured in acres! ;)
Or maybe 43,560 subwoofers that are 1 square foot in size?
they are if you like bass tighter, if not deeper
A couple of good 10 inch subs is plenty. That's what I had then again I don't listen to rap. But AC/DC sounded great through them...
In car audio .
How bigger how les it respons on the bass.
So if we run house music than i go for a small sub 8" works the best
TL, DR, no correlation between cone size and performance.
It's overall execution that matters.
If your sub and mic placement was the same while measuring 40 Hz tone I have to say there is something wrong with 2x8" and something even more wrong with 4x6.5" . Using a good and EQed over-ear pair of headphones what I hear is only the 12" sub produces a real 40 Hz tone.
Or maybe you're just hearing the microphone clip?.
@@DIYAudioGuyIf the mic was clipping then yes, it explains that, so it is is quite possibly distortion from clipping which results in higher frequency artifacts.
Jl audio 13.5 power wedge in a sealed enclosure sounds Purty darn good 👍🫣😜💥
Like this one? howl.me/cmF46zWVjT5 For that price it had better slam.
@@DIYAudioGuy yes but 13.5 instead of a 12…zero noise from this woofer or enclosure
I want to bulid home cinema subwoofer on two 6.5inch Audio System CO 06 EVO subwoofers to save space and fill my q acoustics bookshelfs from 80hz down. Audio System brand is very popular in Europe
I would like to see a comparison between sealed.
With sealed I feel like you need double the drivers and double the power compared to ported, but the sound is way different. I prefer sealed, even if the output is lower. I listed all types of music.
I would love to, but I could use some help. If just 1% of my viewers would sign up here: www.patreaon.com/diyaudioguy I could test out just about anything.
My preference too, double sd and rms w sealed, and Worth the expense
I'm running 2 skar audio EVL-12D2's on 2 skar audio RP1500.1D amps. One per sub. And they are in a custom built box I built that hugs the contour of the floor to gain all the volume I could get. The box is a sealed box with 3.83 ft³ with out the speakers in the box. So I've got them inverted to keep all the airspace I could inside the box. 2.5" seat lift and these bitches pound. The subs are mounted on the front of the box magnet against the backs of the front seats. So 2 - 12's built with the proper size air volume box will fit under anyone's rear seat. I can make it happen. And my truck is a 2016 GMC sierra extended cab. Not even a full depth rear seat like in a crew cab. So with a crew cab I could prolly gain 1 to 1.5 ft³ more of airspace. get at me for your custom built boxes. ¾ mdf or 1" MDF or for those true SPL Comp guys I do 1½" mdf... Get at me I can fit any strange contour I need to. I can do fiberglass coated boxes polished and painted then buffed like a piano if you so choose.
Great video. Well done! Thumbs up.
This is a VERY interesting video. I'm in search of a solution for a HT-sub for my home, where my speakers are capable of going down to app 50Hz. Basically I don't need to go up to 80Hz with the sub (which would be a classic frequency to switch to main speakers), but if I could reach that to have a bit more tunability, would be nice. My main problem is, I want to sub to fit under my floating cabinet, which has a height under of 20cm, a depth of app 35-40cm and a length of 3m (yes, 300cm). I'm going through several enclosure designs and am even thinking of 2 horns with 6,5 subwoofer. This might affect punch bass, but improve low bass. I'm aiming for the range of 20-80Hz, what would you do ?
I would get one of these: parts-express.sjv.io/oe9Ddm put it in a huge ported box tuned to 25 hz and throw some power at it.
@@DIYAudioGuy Thanks for the suggestion, but how does that meet the biggest challenge: "My main problem is, I want to sub to fit under my floating cabinet, which has a height under of 20cm, a depth of app 35-40cm and a length of 3m (yes, 300cm)." ?
Smaller speakers are very fast making them perfect for bass frequencies” wile larger speakers 🔊 are better for sub frequency, 10-20hz is slower so they are perfect for these frequencies
Small subwoofers are better than big ones. Because of their size, big subwoofers can't play as high as small ones. But if you let four small ones play against one big one, the small ones can still play just as low because of the shared membrane surface. At the same level...
, Bravo. Just the comparison I wanted to see. Green light imagination into planning.
Acid Jazz, Funk & Brass 🔈🔉🔊
Thanks for watching.
Sooooooooooooo no appearance for the 10 inch subwoofer??? But 12 is on here???
I'm confused
If you like I can do a similar shootout comparing a pair of tens to a 15. You can let me know by heading over here and signing up: www.patreon.com/diyaudioguy
@@DIYAudioGuy oh I'm not bashing. I was just confused on why the 10s were not included on this test
@@jayboogie7956 I am not bashing either, just pointing out the most obvious reason. If it were feasible I would have tested many more subwoofers.
@@DIYAudioGuy gotcha. Have a great day!!
Also bud, please do a half space measurement for each vs car to derive what is going on with the car. This is not looking like much of an increase in cabin gain!
Perhaps something is not correct within the measurement data, this should look way better?
Not sure how you got these cone area numbers... They seem really off. The moving mass cone area of a 12 inch sub is typically 10.5 Inches, which is 86.59 square inches. An 8 inch subwoofer driver typically has 6.5-7 inch of moving mass cone, which is roughly 38.5 square inches, and so on.... Also, sensitivity increase is not based on adding more cone area, it's based on if you series or parallel connect multiple drivers. Drivers connected in series does NOT increase the sensitivity, while if you connect the same drivers in parallel, you may in best case increase the sensitivity 3 dB in theory.
Hit the links in the description and look at the specs. I may have them wrong.
Actually, it IS about cone area. You’re conflating sensitivity increase because of greater power input into the system versus the efficiency increase due to mutual coupling of multiple cones. Any driver diaphragm that you would be using is acoustically small and therefore its radiation resistance is low. In other words, it’s inefficient because there is a large impedance mismatch between the diaphragm and the air. You get a better match which provides more efficiency with a larger diaphragm and it doesn’t matter whether it’s one large or multiple smaller.
If you take a given driver and put two in parallel you get 6 dB more output. 3 dB of increase comes from the doubling of the input power: assuming a decent amplifier you have the same voltage across two drivers in parallel that you had with one. That means twice the power with two drivers. The other 3 dB of increase comes from the increased efficiency due to mutual coupling. If the drivers are within 1/4 wavelength in the range of interest they will act as one twice the area cone and that will be twice as efficient, hence the other 3 dB.
Try modeling it yourself in something like WinISD or Harris BassBox.
BTW, putting the drivers in series doesn’t give you the power increase because the voltage divides in two for each driver but, you still get the 3 dB increase due to efficiency increase of mutual coupling. You can easily model this also.
@@Obsfucation That's incorrect.
Serial Connection: Higher impedance, lower power per subwoofer. Sensitivity remains the same, but lower overall SPL due to less power.
Parallel Connection: Lower impedance, higher power per subwoofer. Sensitivity remains the same, but higher overall SPL due to more power.
Do the modeling and let me know what you find. I know the physics and both WinISD and Harris BassBox support this. Show me how I’m wrong.
@@Obsfucation I have a masters in engineering. I've worked with developing speakers, subwoofers and amplifiers :) I just wrote above how it works.
bogus question.
what is the throw and magenetic motor and TS parameters, cabinet type?
for the pinnacle of speaker design buy a dozen sound projecting things to stick on thin foam board and you will have a full-blown 360-degree spherical Soundfield.
Well made video on a great subject!
You are to kind!
how about 1 10" in a ported vs 2 x 10" in a sealed with double the power?
That's a great question!
I compete in SQ amd my 15" sub sealed is measurable down to 8hz. A 15", 18", 24" etc. will have higher sensitivity and will get the subsonic detail in music that smaller subs will not be able to, or will struggle to. Plus, it will get down when I want it to. Larger subs are not "slow" or "sloppy". That is just crap people say when they dont know what theyre talking about or doing.
I generally agree. Larger subs are almost always better.
Right on, finally some facts! I can't figure out how people continue to say smaller subs are faster, easier to control, more accurate, tighter, punchier, better or any of the other 50,000 terms used to describe how they are somehow better. Smaller subs have to mover further in and out to perform the same as a larger subwoofer. This fact alone eliminates any possibility that a smaller subwoofer can be easier to control. It also eliminates any possibility that a smaller sub sounds better because more movement allows for more distortion. The simple fact that the sub has to work harder to perform at the same level of a larger sub eliminates all of the stuff people say are better about smaller subs. They can't be more punchy, tighter or accurate when the smaller subs are working harder.
@@MotoAtheistThe video shows that it takes multiple small subs to keep up with a large one. If you have room for a large sub, go with a large sub.
There's an ole saying in SPL... There's no replacement for displacement.