Great discussion Gordy. I do recall years ago sending you my thoughts on the open-close technique versus the Moeller technique. My concern at the time was that it would be difficult to strictly depend on the open-close technique for all playing situations, suggesting that I was not a fan of the finger technique. I think I may have misrepresented myself in that discussion. As a matter of fact, I use both techniques in my playing and teaching and they do work great together. Thanks for the demonstration. I think you nailed precisely how these motions work and how they differ.
I've been a drummer since I was five years old, I first learned the Mohller technique in middle school, by the time I made it high school, I had learned the open/close technique. To this day I use a hybrid form of both techniques, and it serves me well when I play.
every single video u make is just awsome...i keep watching them over and over....this one ive watched over ten times. i cant get enough of your relaxed smooth playing. You are one hell of a player and an amzing teacher. Thanks for making these videos for us....
Gordy.. thanks for the reply. After having a discussion with the late Louie Bellson back in the mid 80's..He explained to me that the technique was similar to bouncing a ball up & down in a continuous motion. With his concept in mind..technically what you are displaying is pretty much what the Gladstone technique is...the only exception being that there is less hand motion involved in producing a continuous stroke. The stick does all the work from the rebound & it becomes an excercise in stick control from fingers. Kudo's to you for taking it a step further.
This is UA-cam gold. I couldn’t afford or find a decent drum tutor in the 80’s in Australia. I’m playing catch up on some of these techniques now. I have the Jojo Mayer hand techniques dvd, but this is more to the point. Thank you Gordy, you’re an inspiration even though this was posted 11 years ago.
What a clear and easy to understand explanation. Well done! It clears up a lot of mud for me. Looking at other videos I was beginning to think no-one understood this subject.
Thank you for sharing ur knowledge with us, I use to work with a mechanic who had about 50 yrs experience,I was new to all this so when I would ask him about how to do something He wasn’t willing to share with me the things he had learned over the yrs. I thought to myself right then , if I was ever in the position to help someone learn something. That I would be generous with my knowledge so the new guy wouldn’t have to learn the hard way about doing something.... God Bless all you guys who are willing to Share...
Wow - I've searched high and low for a good description of how to learn moeller and push pull, and to improve my hand technique. These videos the best BY FAR. Thank you so much. "Big V little V" really helped me.
Thank you Gordy for a great explanation on the two techniques. I was teaching one of my students the Moeller for the first time and now I have the ability to give her more clarity and insight on the topic. Thank you for posting this insightful video. Well done, sir.
Gordy, I wish I had had you as a teacher when I began drumming 25-30 years ago. My high school drum teacher scared me off with what he called "robot stick position" (Morris Goldberg book) and I didn't return to drumming until college, but then had a teacher (whose name you might know) who was all flash. Now at 43 (and only a mediocre drummer), I'm going back and intensively studying motion and technique, as well as practicing my rudiments slowly and cleanly. It's a revelation!
I started playing drums about 2 months ago (never played before) and I tried to learn with these open/close and moeller technique. I've just covered sunday bloody sunday using open close only. So thank you so much.
Since 1977 I have never had anyone explain it's variations / descriptions / nicknames as well as you have here. I know expert teaching skills when I see it. Your Phd is in the mail. Well done indeed.
This is clear and brilliantly explained. Separating open/close and Moeller is something I work on a lot with my students, but I've never explained it quite so eloquently. Your camera angle is perfect for viewing all of the specifics of each motion. And the combination of the two motions made say, "Ooh." Very cool. Thank you for this!
Played drums for 30 years as a job. Now I see these young dudes picking up a lot of “extra notes” effortlessly. I’ve always been aware of the studious techniques and never cared. But now I’m caring. Thanks so much for your insight. Much appreciated. Do you do online lessons?
Thank you so much for this. You've managed to explain this in the best and clearest way I've heard so far. This was very helpful and you're a huge inspiration!
Fantastic teaching...I spent sometime learning these and other drummers always ask and I try my best to help but this has givin me a much easier way to explain everything and there was some nice small things in there that I for sure have to learn really been enjoying these videos. Thanks
These are really excellent lessons and I have learnt a lot watching them. A few years ago I developed some hand pain after I played so I sort advice from various drummers and teachers. The conclusion I came to is that there is a misconception that after a Moeller whip the stick should remain close the head. I believe that the stick should be allowed to rebound at this point in much the same way as an open stoke. When you start practicing Moeller in this way you can see a direct relationship between Moeller and Open closed (or Gladstone technique as it was described to me) Talking with a number of students of Jim Chapin and discussing the development of Moeller's theories I have come to my own personal conclusion that this was Moeller's intention too. I still do sometimes play a controlled stoke after a whip but I found adding this approach into my practice sorted out my hand pain and helped me to develop my hands and integrate open/ closed technique into my overall playing. It also develops more control of that controlled stroke so the tension that is in there is dissipated. Great stuff here though.
HI Andy, Thanks! I'm glad you like the videos. I agree with you. It is best to play a whip accented downstroke while keeping the grip loose, not clenching the hand closed on impact to avoid the problems you describe above. I use this every night w/ Steve Miller for backbeats. This is not a great Moeller demo, it's really more about comparing basic differences in movements between these two techniques in separate mode and continuous mode. Thanks for your note!
Thanks for the reply Gordy, how ever much you study this stuff discussion like this can enlighten and clarify what is a difficult subject to get your head around. I have started to see similarities between the two techniques with the whip being similar to the opening of the fingers to let the stick rebound, the fingered stroke being similar to the rebound and the hand closing and pulling out similar to the pull out in Moeller. I have found in my students that once they get a good feel for Moeller, open close technique becomes much easier to approach. Thanks for your time.
Great explanations and very interesting vid ! I learned for example in the video the interesting combination between the two techniques ! Really motivating to work on it ! thanks for sharing this with the drumming community
I definitely find it useful to start on the tap part of moeller when playing double stroke shuffle beats, as well as the triple stroke. I didn't even realise I was doing so until watching this video. I have learned moeller by starting with the down stroke though.
If I may add to my prior comment, I tend to see the second of three notes as a possible free note, not necessarily needing a finger motion or a wrist tap motion. I see that note as a controlled rebound, meaning that the stick can move without much additional effort. Even a 4-stroke motion could see the second and third notes as somewhat free. The other point is that the Moeller motion in its extreme does produce an accent. However, one can also do what I would call a mini-Moeller, meaning that the wrist is the primary pivot along with minimal forearm motion.and without the use of the upper arm. This motion can produce a note that is stressed, not accented heavily. Thanks as always for sharing your viewpoints. It's good for all to see.
Richard Wilson taught that controlled rebound style. You throw the stick down and let it rebound for how ever many times the natural rebound continued, then lift your wrist for the next throw. Chuck Silverman had it down perfectly. I managed to get up to 5 hits on one throw.
Thank you very much for this clearness. I`ve played Möller (which we called "flapping") since ever - and it was hard to learn the quiet parts or ghosts - i used some kind of a open/close technic but self-developed :-) Now i understand! Let`s go to work...:-)
I think open close and mohler are the same thing at different volumes. When you play softer passages, you have to use open/close (wrist and fingers) technique and when you play louder passages you use moehler technique which involves arms, forearms and wrist. And that's all!
this is by far the best explication of open close i've ever seen! excelente explicacion desde panama! can you explain open close with traditional grip?
Great, fantastic. what's more. According to Bruce Becker, the moeller down stroke doesn't necessarily have to be the accented stroke. This is very exiting to me. You ar both great drummers and your styles a very different. This tels me that if a drummer wants to develop a unique style of playing he may want to study all the existing approaches. And that is what like and do. Ramon Montagner starts his 'open/close techniek also on the open position.Check him out for some 'crazy' stuff. Rick Dior is another on of my favorite teachers. Of Course there is more, but for now: Gordy; Thank you, I would describe you as a monster drummer with the best all round killer approach. If you happen to be curious about what else i have found during my long search, don't hesitate to contact me. Greetings and thanks.
I personally use the moeller method and tbh its not necessary for you to have the stick miles away from the snare during your initial stroke or final stroke. I agree that moeller can be used for accenting but i disagree with the difference of volume and arm movements of both techniques. I play metal myself and i use moeller for blast beats which require constant volume from the snare hence having the hand at a constant height. So it just boils down to control in that context then. Overall great lesson to introduce the two techniques.
+Kendrick Foo You've missed the point, this isn't about stick heights, it's about hand mechanics. I understand the need for moeller in louder metal music, but from your statement I also know you have obviously never had to play low volume, acoustic music like a cocktail lounge or jazz club w/acoustic piano and upright bass. In this situation any moeller approach is too loud, but open /close is the perfect scale for it. You will actually find that working on the softer open/close mechanics will actually improve your loud moeller mechanics. It's all about keeping the fingers connected with the stick regardless of technique choice.
Kendrick Foo I believe his exaggerated arm height was for demonstration of the overall arm movement. It would crazy to expect consistent speed when flailing your arms like Animal!
Hello Gordy. I love your approach to hand technique and always enjoy these videos. Do you have one on accenting various strokes using open/close technique?
+Daniel J Jones Thanks Daniel, I'm glad you like these videos, but I do not have any about accenting open or close strokes. I'm working on a book which adds accented singles to O/C strokes, but it's just in the very early stages.
Gordy, it feels easier to count and feel like that than moeller but i wonder if there are side effects of it in real life conditions ? you know sometimes first stroke needs to be loud (whipping stroke of moeller) in the rhytym and (open close down ) or ( tap up down) sequence would not work for it if you feel the third stroke as the beginning of the bar. im trying to correct my technique and having difficulties to feel and switch the groove in time. This approach tickles my "insider groove feel" a bit. is it wrong ?
Thanks again, Gordy. I have been working on Moeller and finger control for some time now. I was taught using the first index finger joint and thumb..pretty good pinch for power and speed, relaxed at slower playing. I feel set back a bit from watching your technique(which looks great), and some of the other guys like Jojo and Weckl. I think Dave is using your technique now. Should I switch gears here, or does individual preference play a lot into these grips?...thank you much
Doesn't the Moeller up stroke come from the elbow? That's what i was taught... Also you can just start with the accent on the first stroke and there's not much of a difference except for volume?
3:51 you didn't explain how to develop the continuous open close, is this something that comes with practicing the separate variation? If not please explain it :)
Technique/stroke systems are like vocabulary...the more you have the more ways of expression. There is no one technique that fulfills all musical / rhythmic expressions. Moeller can also be played in a more legato manner by utilizing controlled rebound. Think Sanford Moeller meets Billy Gladstone. Moeller flow is analogous to a fluid bow arm. Once you have the flow you have something to control. Control comes from degrees of looseness, not tightness. That's where touch and finesse come from, too.
Unfortunately I don't really know exactly what the Gladstone technique is. But at PASIC 2003, Joe Morello told me "Thank you for doing this! Billy Gladstone was messing around with this when I was studying with him, but he never documented it. I think you took this concept further than he did." From his statement one could assume that Open/Close is Gladstone technique.
I have a question. Why is the Moeller method up down instead of down up? I don't quite understand the explanation. How come we can't start with the heavy downstroke? I dod that for a long time because it felt the best to me. I can really whip that backbeat.
Watch video again starting at 3:20. The key is which mode are you using? When using continous mode you start with accent. When using separate mode you end with accent.
Gordy, do you prefer the open/close technique vs. the moeller? Do you recommend using different techniques depending on the situation? Thanks, you're a great teacher.
Great lesson! I've watched most of your videos and found they amazing! Thank you! Once I was taught by a LAMA graduate that the Open/Close Strokes were used to make repeated accents on a phrase mixed with some whiping motions (donwstroke) for the first notes of the accented phrase. Do you think these two techniques could be brought together in some way? Thanks in advance!
i have watdched many of your vids. and agree with 9- percent.. but.. but. but.. the second (tap) note..is free. no finger stroke required.. its why william stone called it the free stroke..the second note is free.. the third note can be pulled.. or can be lifted after it (the second) is bounced.. unfortunately i understand part of what you are saying, and agree with 95 percent of it.. i just wish i could grasp all of it.. and not disagree and fight it.. thank you for your videos, gordy.. i do respect you very much. i i do agree with the push/pull.. maybe i should record and load some videos of what i am talking about.. i know it is difficult.. once again i respect your work.. i would enjoy watching/ hearing what your instruction is with interlacing multiple strokes.
David Williams gordy. i meant 95 percent not 9 percent at the begining of my quote.. once again.. all respect toward you is valid..i am just trying to get to the technical plateau you are on.. and having a difficult time.. help me if you can, my friend
David Williams David I'm glad you like the videos. Regarding the tap...it is "free" at some tempos, but at very, very slow tempos it is not. The most important goal, whatever tempo you are playing, is to keep the fingers always in contact with the stick. Watch the Fundamentals of Technique videos at my website GK-Music.com for the rationale behind this. FYI -The multi-note stroke interlacing thing can be seen in the Open/Close Technique video and Rudimental applications of O/C in the Morphing Doubles videos.
great videos.Its getting confusing though.What techniques would you use for a double stroke roll fill?and what would you use for a single stoke roll fill?Its quite hard to interlace moeller strokes between hands so i presume its used with hand hand to play a groove on the hats for example?Im presuming the push pull would be used for playing the likes of doubles on the floor tom as there is little rebound?please help with my questions!
I believe your confusion comes from over thinking this stuff. We should do a Skype Lesson. It would be more effective if I answered these questions (and any others you have) in that format rather than this. Email me at: Gordy@gk-music.com
Great discussion Gordy. I do recall years ago sending you my thoughts on the open-close technique versus the Moeller technique. My concern at the time was that it would be difficult to strictly depend on the open-close technique for all playing situations, suggesting that I was not a fan of the finger technique. I think I may have misrepresented myself in that discussion. As a matter of fact, I use both techniques in my playing and teaching and they do work great together.
Thanks for the demonstration. I think you nailed precisely how these motions work and how they differ.
Thanks Ralph, I really appreciate it!
It's mesmerizing how he almost never watches his hand when demonstrating in-depth hand movements but looks right into your soul :D
Beautifully explained..... Better than every video I've watch of this technique, thanks man.
I've been a drummer since I was five years old, I first learned the Mohller technique in middle school, by the time I made it high school, I had learned the open/close technique. To this day I use a hybrid form of both techniques, and it serves me well when I play.
every single video u make is just awsome...i keep watching them over and over....this one ive watched over ten times. i cant get enough of your relaxed smooth playing. You are one hell of a player and an amzing teacher. Thanks for making these videos for us....
+Brandon Kain - Thank you Brandon, I appreciate it!
Ah the missing piece of the puzzle explained.. thank you Gordy.. this is priceless
Gordy.. thanks for the reply.
After having a discussion with
the late Louie Bellson back in
the mid 80's..He explained to
me that the technique was similar
to bouncing a ball up & down in
a continuous motion. With his concept in mind..technically
what you are displaying is pretty
much what the Gladstone technique is...the only exception
being that there is less hand motion involved in producing
a continuous stroke. The stick
does all the work from the rebound & it becomes an excercise in stick control from
fingers. Kudo's to you for taking
it a step further.
This is UA-cam gold. I couldn’t afford or find a decent drum tutor in the 80’s in Australia. I’m playing catch up on some of these techniques now. I have the Jojo Mayer hand techniques dvd, but this is more to the point.
Thank you Gordy, you’re an inspiration even though this was posted 11 years ago.
Thanks,! You are welcome!
it's really refreshing to see such a clear, honest explanation of something like this. you are a rare, selfless teacher.
What a clear and easy to understand explanation. Well done! It clears up a lot of mud for me. Looking at other videos I was beginning to think no-one understood this subject.
Thank you for sharing ur knowledge with us, I use to work with a mechanic who had about 50 yrs experience,I was new to all this so when I would ask him about how to do something He wasn’t willing to share with me the things he had learned over the yrs. I thought to myself right then , if I was ever in the position to help someone learn something. That I would be generous with my knowledge so the new guy wouldn’t have to learn the hard way about doing something.... God Bless all you guys who are willing to Share...
Thanks Howard, I agree sharing is where it's at!
Wow - I've searched high and low for a good description of how to learn moeller and push pull, and to improve my hand technique. These videos the best BY FAR. Thank you so much. "Big V little V" really helped me.
You are welcome!
Thank you Gordy for a great explanation on the two techniques. I was teaching one of my students the Moeller for the first time and now I have the ability to give her more clarity and insight on the topic. Thank you for posting this insightful video. Well done, sir.
Gordy, I wish I had had you as a teacher when I began drumming 25-30 years ago. My high school drum teacher scared me off with what he called "robot stick position" (Morris Goldberg book) and I didn't return to drumming until college, but then had a teacher (whose name you might know) who was all flash. Now at 43 (and only a mediocre drummer), I'm going back and intensively studying motion and technique, as well as practicing my rudiments slowly and cleanly. It's a revelation!
It was extremely helpful to see you compare and contrast all of these techniques in the same video, thank you!
I started playing drums about 2 months ago (never played before) and I tried to learn with these open/close and moeller technique. I've just covered sunday bloody sunday using open close only. So thank you so much.
Since 1977 I have never had anyone explain it's variations / descriptions / nicknames as well as you have here. I know expert teaching skills when I see it. Your Phd is in the mail. Well done indeed.
This is clear and brilliantly explained. Separating open/close and Moeller is something I work on a lot with my students, but I've never explained it quite so eloquently. Your camera angle is perfect for viewing all of the specifics of each motion. And the combination of the two motions made say, "Ooh." Very cool. Thank you for this!
Absolutely fascinating explanation
Oh crap! This just made me realize you can combine the two for 4-5 note singles! Thanks Gordy!
Very informative and well put together
Thank you so much for these videos. You’re are an outstanding instructor and incredible musician.
Played drums for 30 years as a job. Now I see these young dudes picking up a lot of “extra notes” effortlessly. I’ve always been aware of the studious techniques and never cared. But now I’m caring.
Thanks so much for your insight. Much appreciated. Do you do online lessons?
Thanks. Yes, I do Skype lessons. Contact me at my website GK-Music.com to set one up.
excellent, concise, succinct lesson
This is maybe the best explanation I've seen about stroke technique.
Thank you very much.
My instructor learned from him and is having me watch these. Makes me feel like I don't know what I'm doing lol
Wow.. i just hav to say ive seen many people on youtube who can do this but not one can explane it this good!!! Thank you so much for your video!!
thank you for this it actually gone in to gray well done 👏
These vids are just as potent as jo jo's... thanks alot for your detailed and very descriptive explanations! !
This is the most helpful explanation I've ever come across on this subject. Thanks for taking the time to make these videos!
Thank you so much for this. You've managed to explain this in the best and clearest way I've heard so far. This was very helpful and you're a huge inspiration!
So helpfull ! Thanks for your work, the difference about the sequencing is really important and you enlight it very well.
Fantastic teaching...I spent sometime learning these and other drummers always ask and I try my best to help but this has givin me a much easier way to explain everything and there was some nice small things in there that I for sure have to learn really been enjoying these videos. Thanks
These are really excellent lessons and I have learnt a lot watching them. A few years ago I developed some hand pain after I played so I sort advice from various drummers and teachers. The conclusion I came to is that there is a misconception that after a Moeller whip the stick should remain close the head. I believe that the stick should be allowed to rebound at this point in much the same way as an open stoke. When you start practicing Moeller in this way you can see a direct relationship between Moeller and Open closed (or Gladstone technique as it was described to me)
Talking with a number of students of Jim Chapin and discussing the development of Moeller's theories I have come to my own personal conclusion that this was Moeller's intention too.
I still do sometimes play a controlled stoke after a whip but I found adding this approach into my practice sorted out my hand pain and helped me to develop my hands and integrate open/ closed technique into my overall playing. It also develops more control of that controlled stroke so the tension that is in there is dissipated.
Great stuff here though.
HI Andy, Thanks! I'm glad you like the videos. I agree with you. It is best to play a whip accented downstroke while keeping the grip loose, not clenching the hand closed on impact to avoid the problems you describe above. I use this every night w/ Steve Miller for backbeats. This is not a great Moeller demo, it's really more about comparing basic differences in movements between these two techniques in separate mode and continuous mode. Thanks for your note!
Thanks for the reply Gordy, how ever much you study this stuff discussion like this can enlighten and clarify what is a difficult subject to get your head around. I have started to see similarities between the two techniques with the whip being similar to the opening of the fingers to let the stick rebound, the fingered stroke being similar to the rebound and the hand closing and pulling out similar to the pull out in Moeller. I have found in my students that once they get a good feel for Moeller, open close technique becomes much easier to approach. Thanks for your time.
The thinking person's drummer. Brilliant!
Owesome. Best explanation ever.
That truly is the absolute best explanation of these styles thank you great teacher and video
Best explanation I've seen so far! Kudos Mr. Knudtson!
Great - thank you! Will share with my students and colleagues alike.
great explanations. one of the best presentations of these techniques I have seen. thanks for posting
Thanks for another great video
thank you Gordy, my technique has improved a lot since I purchased your drum method, I wil post a video one of these days God bless!
Great explanations and very interesting vid ! I learned for example in the video the interesting combination between the two techniques ! Really motivating to work on it ! thanks for sharing this with the drumming community
I definitely find it useful to start on the tap part of moeller when playing double stroke shuffle beats, as well as the triple stroke. I didn't even realise I was doing so until watching this video. I have learned moeller by starting with the down stroke though.
Explained as efficiently as both techniques.
Such a clear and simple explanation! You're a great teacher 👏👏
Thank you!
@@GKMusic54 You're welcome 🤝
Thanks, great video!
you are professional and calm to explain
Thankyou so much for this, really is the most clear explanation I have seen on the internet.
Where have you Been All My Life. Brilliant Demonstration and Explanation I Loved What you Did.
Way underrated video still 8 years later. Will share it
Thank you, very good explanation 👏
If I may add to my prior comment, I tend to see the second of three notes as a possible free note, not necessarily needing a finger motion or a wrist tap motion. I see that note as a controlled rebound, meaning that the stick can move without much additional effort. Even a 4-stroke motion could see the second and third notes as somewhat free. The other point is that the Moeller motion in its extreme does produce an accent. However, one can also do what I would call a mini-Moeller, meaning that the wrist is the primary pivot along with minimal forearm motion.and without the use of the upper arm. This motion can produce a note that is stressed, not accented heavily. Thanks as always for sharing your viewpoints. It's good for all to see.
Richard Wilson taught that controlled rebound style. You throw the stick down and let it rebound for how ever many times the natural rebound continued, then lift your wrist for the next throw. Chuck Silverman had it down perfectly. I managed to get up to 5 hits on one throw.
I am using the marker technique, got me over the hump to bout 60bpm, ty
Great lesson!! Thanks👍👍
Leard the Moeller from Jim Chapin, but this video got me to subscribe. What an awesome teacher you are, like your vibes.
Thanks Stephan!
Thank you very much for this clearness. I`ve played Möller (which we called "flapping") since ever - and it was hard to learn the quiet parts or ghosts - i used some kind of a open/close technic but self-developed :-) Now i understand! Let`s go to work...:-)
thank you, sir for sharing this tutorial/explanation video....
we really appreciate...and practicing it everyday
Great lesson. Thank you.
Thank you for the video
Wow, that was really clearly explained. Thanks
man that makes sooo much sence. yer right my right has been doin tripple stroke, and etc. ... just gotta get me left involved. time to trade hands...
Nice way to promote the "A" Gordy! You'll have a generation of swinging web followers with that Moeller example. Nice one! ;)
when Bruce Willys played drums!!
Just kidding Mr Gordy, really amazing technique and teaching, gracias!!!
great as usual. thank you so much.
Oh wow that's neat explanation.
Great video. Thanks.
I think open close and mohler are the same thing at different volumes. When you play softer passages, you have to use open/close (wrist and fingers) technique and when you play louder passages you use moehler technique which involves arms, forearms and wrist. And that's all!
this is by far the best explication of open close i've ever seen!
excelente explicacion desde panama!
can you explain open close with traditional grip?
very well explained. excellent!
finalllyyyy!!! great teacher. merci
Excellent
Great, fantastic. what's more. According to Bruce Becker, the moeller down stroke doesn't necessarily have to be the accented stroke. This is very exiting to me. You ar both great drummers and your styles a very different. This tels me that if a drummer wants to develop a unique style of playing he may want to study all the existing approaches. And that is what like and do. Ramon Montagner starts his 'open/close techniek also on the open position.Check him out for some 'crazy' stuff. Rick Dior is another on of my favorite teachers. Of Course there is more, but for now: Gordy; Thank you, I would describe you as a monster drummer with the best all round killer approach. If you happen to be curious about what else i have found during my long search, don't hesitate to contact me.
Greetings and thanks.
Very informative, thank you!
can't help myself every time you start saying *up-down*, Funk Soul Brother by Fatboy Slim starts playing in my head :D
Nice!
Nice vid man! Very well explained, Makes me want to go pratice right away! ;-)
amazing teacher oO
I personally use the moeller method and tbh its not necessary for you to have the stick miles away from the snare during your initial stroke or final stroke. I agree that moeller can be used for accenting but i disagree with the difference of volume and arm movements of both techniques. I play metal myself and i use moeller for blast beats which require constant volume from the snare hence having the hand at a constant height. So it just boils down to control in that context then. Overall great lesson to introduce the two techniques.
+Kendrick Foo You've missed the point, this isn't about stick heights, it's about hand mechanics. I understand the need for moeller in louder metal music, but from your statement I also know you have obviously never had to play low volume, acoustic music like a cocktail lounge or jazz club w/acoustic piano and upright bass. In this situation any moeller approach is too loud, but open /close is the perfect scale for it. You will actually find that working on the softer open/close mechanics will actually improve your loud moeller mechanics. It's all about keeping the fingers connected with the stick regardless of technique choice.
Kendrick Foo I believe his exaggerated arm height was for demonstration of the overall arm movement. It would crazy to expect consistent speed when flailing your arms like Animal!
bill Bruford has a grip and hitting down a system I'd like to emulate, so full of flow and effortless..
good lessons,man!
Thank You very Much Very Cool !
Thanks man!
awesom!!!
Hello Gordy. I love your approach to hand technique and always enjoy these videos. Do you have one on accenting various strokes using open/close technique?
+Daniel J Jones
Thanks Daniel, I'm glad you like these videos, but I do not have any about accenting open or close strokes. I'm working on a book which adds accented singles to O/C strokes, but it's just in the very early stages.
Gordy Knudtson Excellent! I look forward to the books release. And thanks for the reply. :)
Gordy, it feels easier to count and feel like that than moeller but i wonder if there are side effects of it in real life conditions ? you know sometimes first stroke needs to be loud (whipping stroke of moeller) in the rhytym and (open close down ) or ( tap up down) sequence would not work for it if you feel the third stroke as the beginning of the bar.
im trying to correct my technique and having difficulties to feel and switch the groove in time. This approach tickles my "insider groove feel" a bit. is it wrong ?
Thanks again, Gordy. I have been working on Moeller and finger control for some time now. I was taught using the first index finger joint and thumb..pretty good pinch for power and speed, relaxed at slower playing. I feel set back a bit from watching your technique(which looks great), and some of the other guys like Jojo and Weckl. I think Dave is using your technique now. Should I switch gears here, or does individual preference play a lot into these grips?...thank you much
Plydrms There are many "right" answers that conform to the physics. I say use whatever works best for you.
i didn't know that Bruce Willis played drums (very good lesson )
Doesn't the Moeller up stroke come from the elbow? That's what i was taught... Also you can just start with the accent on the first stroke and there's not much of a difference except for volume?
Watch Part 4 of Drum Technique Fundamentals - Moeller vs O/C for explanation.
3:51 you didn't explain how to develop the continuous open close, is this something that comes with practicing the separate variation? If not please explain it :)
Technique/stroke systems are like vocabulary...the more you have the more ways of expression. There is no one technique that fulfills all musical / rhythmic expressions. Moeller can also be played in a more legato manner by utilizing controlled rebound. Think Sanford Moeller meets Billy Gladstone. Moeller flow is analogous to a fluid bow arm. Once you have the flow you have something to control. Control comes from degrees of looseness, not tightness. That's where touch and finesse come from, too.
Amen! Choices are driven by musical needs. Thanks Ed!
@@GKMusic54 Indeed, they are. Hope you're well. Trying times for all.
Gordy...I am requesting a video segment explaining the Billy Gladstone technique.
Unfortunately I don't really know exactly what the Gladstone technique is. But at PASIC 2003, Joe Morello told me "Thank you for doing this! Billy Gladstone was messing around with this when I was studying with him, but he never documented it. I think you took this concept further than he did." From his statement one could assume that Open/Close is Gladstone technique.
(At PASIC 2003 I participated in a three part technique clinic series w/Joe Morello and Jim Chapin. My clinic segment was about Open/Close technique.)
Gordy Knudtson Gordy, do you prefer, or recommend the open/close technique vs. the moeller? I think that you're an excellent instructor...rob
perfect class \0/
I'm for the Knudtson technique; or maybe the Gordy technique!! or maybe, "I use GT"
I have a question. Why is the Moeller method up down instead of down up? I don't quite understand the explanation. How come we can't start with the heavy downstroke? I dod that for a long time because it felt the best to me. I can really whip that backbeat.
Watch video again starting at 3:20. The key is which mode are you using? When using continous mode you start with accent. When using separate mode you end with accent.
Gordy, do you prefer the open/close technique vs. the moeller? Do you recommend using different techniques depending on the situation? Thanks, you're a great teacher.
Plydrms Thanks. Yes, I use and recommend both, choice is based on need - O/C for softer playing, Moeller for louder playing.
Great lesson! I've watched most of your videos and found they amazing! Thank you!
Once I was taught by a LAMA graduate that the Open/Close Strokes were used to make repeated accents on a phrase mixed with some whiping motions (donwstroke) for the first notes of the accented phrase. Do you think these two techniques could be brought together in some way?
Thanks in advance!
i have watdched many of your vids. and agree with 9- percent.. but.. but. but.. the second (tap) note..is free. no finger stroke required.. its why william stone called it the free stroke..the second note is free.. the third note can be pulled.. or can be lifted after it (the second) is bounced.. unfortunately i understand part of what you are saying, and agree with 95 percent of it.. i just wish i could grasp all of it.. and not disagree and fight it.. thank you for your videos, gordy.. i do respect you very much. i i do agree with the push/pull.. maybe i should record and load some videos of what i am talking about.. i know it is difficult.. once again i respect your work.. i would enjoy watching/ hearing what your instruction is with interlacing multiple strokes.
David Williams gordy. i meant 95 percent not 9 percent at the begining of my quote.. once again.. all respect toward you is valid..i am just trying to get to the technical plateau you are on.. and having a difficult time.. help me if you can, my friend
David Williams David I'm glad you like the videos. Regarding the tap...it is "free" at some tempos, but at very, very slow tempos it is not. The most important goal, whatever tempo you are playing, is to keep the fingers always in contact with the stick. Watch the Fundamentals of Technique videos at my website GK-Music.com for the rationale behind this. FYI -The multi-note stroke interlacing thing can be seen in the Open/Close Technique video and Rudimental applications of O/C in the Morphing Doubles videos.
yes!!!
great videos.Its getting confusing though.What techniques would you use for a double stroke roll fill?and what would you use for a single stoke roll fill?Its quite hard to interlace moeller strokes between hands so i presume its used with hand hand to play a groove on the hats for example?Im presuming the push pull would be used for playing the likes of doubles on the floor tom as there is little rebound?please help with my questions!
I believe your confusion comes from over thinking this stuff. We should do a Skype Lesson. It would be more effective if I answered these questions (and any others you have) in that format rather than this. Email me at: Gordy@gk-music.com