I'm playing in a Theros game on Wednesdays at the moment! The piety system has been interesting; almost every person in the party chose a different god so it's led to a bit less cohesion than that group is generally used to. I'm all about a lil conflict tho! 😂
I think this adds a ton of RP and flavor for gods that players would worship or in general follow. I really like the idea of it being used as you describe; perhaps a demi-god or powerful being that the players bend the knee to and gain favor with in exchange for boons or blessings. It would be more tangible and "real" if they can physically see Mama Odie and do things that make her happy, for example, than some unknowable goddess in the sky.
I love that bit about asking players whether they think they've done anything during the session to merit piety points. We could do the same with Inspiration points! "Do you think you did anything particular with your traits/ideals/bonds/flaws this session, to earn an Inspiration point?" My group is so fixated on the action that they don't pause to think about that at the time.
Conan: Crom, I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that two stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Crom... so grant me one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!
I love, love, love the production choices on this video. You have a conversational style and the laptop on the bed makes it feel like a DM slumber party. Brings me back to the days of my youth talking D&D well into the night at sleepovers!
RIGHT?! When I decided I wanted to do a Greek mythology inspired campaign and picked this up, I assumed I was going to probably need to homebrew a few subclasses to get the exact feel that I wanted buuuuut nope. This team understood the assignment 😂 I'm tinkering with it right now because I think my plan in to convert it to Nimble 5e for my home game
I discovered your channel a few weeks ago and have been binging all your videos, sometimes watching them more than once. As a newbie GM it's been a gold mine of ideas and tips. My first ever 5e campaign as GM has been a success so far, in part thanks to you. Also, I'm very interested in Theros, but I fear it will reignite my hyperfixation with Greek stuff. Thank you for another great video 🎉
🥹 Thank you for the kind words! I'm glad you're enjoying running games! And I'm totally the same 😂 Baby Stephanie used to just plant herself in the Mythology section of the library, I'd stay there literally allll day if somebody let me!
@@StephaniePlaysGames hahahaha yeah I was the same. Thank you for all positivity you put on your videos, the love and energy you put into them really shows. This section about STEAL is my favorite because It inspires many things to try out with my players 😁
already using it, it really has helped bringing a closeness to the gods of my setting with the characters than just something brought up by a cleric or paladin. It really helps inform roleplay almost a bit like mini oaths for a paladin because the players want the piety for that sweet sweet reward.
I have actually run a few games where the characters have interacted with the Greek gods. So the piety rules would come in handy there. I definitely like your ideas of using the piety rules for warlock patrons or arch fey. There are many powerful beings that can grant favors or minor abilities to the player characters. One time use magic items are great things powerful beings can give too.
Yeah, single use or limited use magic items have saved my butt over time with my players. It all started when I accidentally gave someone a pathway to a cloak of invisibility when they were at level 3 😂
I love that you've gone and made this, I'm planning on using the piety system from Theros and a gladiator Style game that I'm running that takes place in the nine hells. So having a party system created for each of the archdevils that run each layer of Hell will be fantastic to have with my players
YES! I think using it for archdevils is the thing I'm most excited about! I'm also tinkering with a nine hells adventure so I'm excited to hear about how yours turns out! 😊
I love this! I always try to make religion a thing in my world and most people show deference to a Priest even if it's not of their faith. And I like to play devout anything but Priests And Paladins to remind the other players that you can. And a lot of new players probably should because it gives easy direction and flavor for any character.
Something that's so interesting about using a piety system like the one in the Theros book is that the alignment with their god(s)' wishes is known to the player. They know if what in-line with those wishes, if they've been "doing the right thing". They get points when they act accordingly, and can lose them when they work against it. Knowing the "rules" of faith is often not how the stories of the relationship with the divine have worked. It's often part of the human struggle to fail to meet those expectations, to guess wrong as to what needs to be done, and to suffer accordingly! Not a knock at all about the Theros piety system, but it's an interesting divergence from the reality of religious myth :D (Were I to run it, I'd probably keep a running tally secretly for the players, and provide them the boons only when they reach those breakpoints, but I wouldn't tell them what it is or how to get it, explicitly! Maybe they start to see ambiguous signs they could interpret!)
I agree - that is a really interesting difference to consider! I wonder if it's usually because they're "champions" of their gods we're supposed to infer that they have this pre-existing relationship and have maybe learned a few things about them before they start their adventuring life? 🤔
Piety systems in TTRPGs first started almost 45-years ago. I much prefer variations of piety systems, including the Warlock patron system, than just saying that you pray daily for new divine spells. If you live in a fantasy world where the gods walk among mortals - it only makes sense to include such attunement with your deity. Faith, Belief, and Service should be opportunities for role-playing and place player characters in occasionally tough situations that require role-playing to work out. Sure that god will grant you a healing spell - but you can't use it on that other party member who has a patron that opposes them. I highly recommend using a piety system mixed with Warlock systems for any Paladin, Cleric, or Warlock. I also believe that each god/patron should have their own spell lists and other deities that they are aligned or opposed with. I also have no problem with the idea that you can offend and must earn back the trust of your patrons/deities.
One thing I like about the Theros system is the idea of favor, that is, things players could build into their backgrounds that might get the god to notice them before they start "doing piety" as a way to encourage players to fit characters more deeply into the world. The PF2e "stats" for deities has a lot of overlap with the Theros system (except for actually tracking piety points, which is ironic considering PF's love of subsystems) and includes backgrounds, but doesn't have such specific favor suggestions, and I'm inclined to try it if I run a more divinely-inspired campaign...
I usually don't like how D&D (or most of the TTRPG space) is treating polytheism, since in realty people usually did not picked one patron deity (except for the priests). Thus it feels like cultural appropriation even if the patron is completely fictional (which is not true for all the deities in D&D, like Bahamut and Tiamat are actual deities from Mesopotamia). However, I think the idea of using it for warlocks seems interesting, even though I personally like it more if the warlock is more acting against the patron than actually trying to accommodate to it. Regarding having special NPCs that can grand favours, I stole the idea of Icons from 13th Age. And I think Mother Moth would fit pretty well the role of an Icon. But overall I would say take a look at that, since that makes it easy to tie such central NPCs already into the character creation. I certainly stole the idea for my own system, even though I renamed it to Linchpins.
I'm not sure how not following history would fall into cultural appropriation. I'd also like to point out that old editions expected NPCs to give offerings to multiple dietes. Has that changed in 5th edition?
@@pheralanpathfinder4897 It is because if you would want to have it properly represented then you would not do it so half-hearted. And the issue is not just 5th edition, I have never seen it in 3rd, 4th, or in 5th edition. But the Theros book made it clear that you can have only piety with a single deity. Which simple is a misrepresentation of ancient Greece mythology, which it is obviously inspired by. That is why it is appropriation!
@@Drudenfusz I don't own Theros, but I can see how that MgtG setting could be cultural appropriation. The idea of divine entities giving rewards to the faithful is fairly widespread. It also fits really well with the lore of D&D. For example almost all sailors give Umberlee her due even though they're often good aligned worshippers of other gods. It's been awhile since I studied Greek Mythology but I seen to recall some cities and heroes being more closely tied to one diety. I think some even received gifts from one specific dirty during the tale
Regular ancient Greek and Roman peoples might not have selected a particular patron deity, but we don't actually have a lot of evidence to say that with absolute certainty, since there's only so much that can be determined from archaeology and all the documentary evidence comes from an extremely small and very privileged literate upper class. Moreover, even if records of actual religious practice existed in ancient writings, it's a good guess a lot of these would not have been preserved by the Christian and Muslim scribes who transmitted them to us in the first place. Myths and poems about ancient pagan gods could be tolerated but not details on how to worship them, so we only get some glimpses like animal sacrifice, some Roman ritual practices, etc. (The Norse myths get off far worse--we get a lot of stories about the gods and heroes but pretty much nothing on worship or devotional practices--Ahmad ibn-Fadlan's description of a Kievan Rus lord's funeral is about it.) But that's all irrelevant, because the _heroes_ in the Greek and Roman mythological accounts absolutely had patrons, as did anyone who joined a cult of a particular god--the Eleusinian Mysteries devoted to Demeter and Persephone, the Cult of Isis, the Cult of Mithras--all full of members who devoted themselves to that particular patron. If you read _The Odyssey_ , it is clear that Athena is Odysseus' patron, and that he earns Poseidon's enmity early on by blinding his son Polyphemus. But pissing off Poseidon could be seen as an act of piety that earned him points with Athena since her rivalry with Poseidon was also accounted for in the ancient sources. The player characters in Theros are heroes, not random shepherds or weavers or stonemasons, and like ancient Greek heroes of myth, they also have patrons.
What would you use the Piety System for? 🤔
I'm playing in a Theros game on Wednesdays at the moment! The piety system has been interesting; almost every person in the party chose a different god so it's led to a bit less cohesion than that group is generally used to. I'm all about a lil conflict tho! 😂
AHHH! I love this! I definitely have some groups that really don't like interparty conflict - but I also enjoy a little, I think the tension's fun! 😂
I think this adds a ton of RP and flavor for gods that players would worship or in general follow. I really like the idea of it being used as you describe; perhaps a demi-god or powerful being that the players bend the knee to and gain favor with in exchange for boons or blessings. It would be more tangible and "real" if they can physically see Mama Odie and do things that make her happy, for example, than some unknowable goddess in the sky.
Ooooh demi-gods would be a good one to add it! 😊
Have been wanting to start a Theros game and might pitch the piety system to my players to see if it excited then. Thx
I love that bit about asking players whether they think they've done anything during the session to merit piety points. We could do the same with Inspiration points! "Do you think you did anything particular with your traits/ideals/bonds/flaws this session, to earn an Inspiration point?" My group is so fixated on the action that they don't pause to think about that at the time.
Conan: Crom, I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you, will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that two stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Crom... so grant me one request. Grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!
I love, love, love the production choices on this video. You have a conversational style and the laptop on the bed makes it feel like a DM slumber party. Brings me back to the days of my youth talking D&D well into the night at sleepovers!
😂 That’s what I thought too! I was just too lazy to put it back into couch mode after our guest left haha
THIS BOOK IS SO UNDER RATED OH MY GOD.
RIGHT?! When I decided I wanted to do a Greek mythology inspired campaign and picked this up, I assumed I was going to probably need to homebrew a few subclasses to get the exact feel that I wanted buuuuut nope. This team understood the assignment 😂 I'm tinkering with it right now because I think my plan in to convert it to Nimble 5e for my home game
I discovered your channel a few weeks ago and have been binging all your videos, sometimes watching them more than once. As a newbie GM it's been a gold mine of ideas and tips. My first ever 5e campaign as GM has been a success so far, in part thanks to you.
Also, I'm very interested in Theros, but I fear it will reignite my hyperfixation with Greek stuff. Thank you for another great video 🎉
🥹 Thank you for the kind words! I'm glad you're enjoying running games! And I'm totally the same 😂 Baby Stephanie used to just plant herself in the Mythology section of the library, I'd stay there literally allll day if somebody let me!
@@StephaniePlaysGames hahahaha yeah I was the same. Thank you for all positivity you put on your videos, the love and energy you put into them really shows. This section about STEAL is my favorite because It inspires many things to try out with my players 😁
Yes me too at least it was useful in High School Latin for Cetsmen at Convention.
Book of Eben Tide does a What Gods Want, and has Hekate and Loki as examples.
OH super fun!
I"m a big fan of the Piety / Renown systems. Great walk through with MomMoth :)
Thank you! 😊
already using it, it really has helped bringing a closeness to the gods of my setting with the characters than just something brought up by a cleric or paladin. It really helps inform roleplay almost a bit like mini oaths for a paladin because the players want the piety for that sweet sweet reward.
Yesss I love that! Mini oath is such a great descriptor!
I have actually run a few games where the characters have interacted with the Greek gods. So the piety rules would come in handy there.
I definitely like your ideas of using the piety rules for warlock patrons or arch fey. There are many powerful beings that can grant favors or minor abilities to the player characters.
One time use magic items are great things powerful beings can give too.
Yeah, single use or limited use magic items have saved my butt over time with my players. It all started when I accidentally gave someone a pathway to a cloak of invisibility when they were at level 3 😂
I love that you've gone and made this, I'm planning on using the piety system from Theros and a gladiator Style game that I'm running that takes place in the nine hells. So having a party system created for each of the archdevils that run each layer of Hell will be fantastic to have with my players
YES! I think using it for archdevils is the thing I'm most excited about! I'm also tinkering with a nine hells adventure so I'm excited to hear about how yours turns out! 😊
Such great ideas! Im about to play in a new campaign and i think ill be a paladin just for this!
Ahhhh yesss I can’t wait to hear about it! 😊 I love playing as a Paladin, it’s right behind Barbarian for me!
I love this! I always try to make religion a thing in my world and most people show deference to a Priest even if it's not of their faith. And I like to play devout anything but Priests And Paladins to remind the other players that you can. And a lot of new players probably should because it gives easy direction and flavor for any character.
Something that's so interesting about using a piety system like the one in the Theros book is that the alignment with their god(s)' wishes is known to the player. They know if what in-line with those wishes, if they've been "doing the right thing". They get points when they act accordingly, and can lose them when they work against it.
Knowing the "rules" of faith is often not how the stories of the relationship with the divine have worked. It's often part of the human struggle to fail to meet those expectations, to guess wrong as to what needs to be done, and to suffer accordingly! Not a knock at all about the Theros piety system, but it's an interesting divergence from the reality of religious myth :D
(Were I to run it, I'd probably keep a running tally secretly for the players, and provide them the boons only when they reach those breakpoints, but I wouldn't tell them what it is or how to get it, explicitly! Maybe they start to see ambiguous signs they could interpret!)
I agree - that is a really interesting difference to consider! I wonder if it's usually because they're "champions" of their gods we're supposed to infer that they have this pre-existing relationship and have maybe learned a few things about them before they start their adventuring life? 🤔
You could let each player choose a boon, then remove it temporarily when they stray to far from the true path.
Piety systems in TTRPGs first started almost 45-years ago. I much prefer variations of piety systems, including the Warlock patron system, than just saying that you pray daily for new divine spells. If you live in a fantasy world where the gods walk among mortals - it only makes sense to include such attunement with your deity. Faith, Belief, and Service should be opportunities for role-playing and place player characters in occasionally tough situations that require role-playing to work out. Sure that god will grant you a healing spell - but you can't use it on that other party member who has a patron that opposes them.
I highly recommend using a piety system mixed with Warlock systems for any Paladin, Cleric, or Warlock. I also believe that each god/patron should have their own spell lists and other deities that they are aligned or opposed with. I also have no problem with the idea that you can offend and must earn back the trust of your patrons/deities.
❤
One thing I like about the Theros system is the idea of favor, that is, things players could build into their backgrounds that might get the god to notice them before they start "doing piety" as a way to encourage players to fit characters more deeply into the world. The PF2e "stats" for deities has a lot of overlap with the Theros system (except for actually tracking piety points, which is ironic considering PF's love of subsystems) and includes backgrounds, but doesn't have such specific favor suggestions, and I'm inclined to try it if I run a more divinely-inspired campaign...
I usually don't like how D&D (or most of the TTRPG space) is treating polytheism, since in realty people usually did not picked one patron deity (except for the priests). Thus it feels like cultural appropriation even if the patron is completely fictional (which is not true for all the deities in D&D, like Bahamut and Tiamat are actual deities from Mesopotamia). However, I think the idea of using it for warlocks seems interesting, even though I personally like it more if the warlock is more acting against the patron than actually trying to accommodate to it.
Regarding having special NPCs that can grand favours, I stole the idea of Icons from 13th Age. And I think Mother Moth would fit pretty well the role of an Icon. But overall I would say take a look at that, since that makes it easy to tie such central NPCs already into the character creation. I certainly stole the idea for my own system, even though I renamed it to Linchpins.
Ooooh I'll have to check it out! Thanks for the recommendation! 😊
I'm not sure how not following history would fall into cultural appropriation.
I'd also like to point out that old editions expected NPCs to give offerings to multiple dietes. Has that changed in 5th edition?
@@pheralanpathfinder4897 It is because if you would want to have it properly represented then you would not do it so half-hearted. And the issue is not just 5th edition, I have never seen it in 3rd, 4th, or in 5th edition. But the Theros book made it clear that you can have only piety with a single deity. Which simple is a misrepresentation of ancient Greece mythology, which it is obviously inspired by. That is why it is appropriation!
@@Drudenfusz I don't own Theros, but I can see how that MgtG setting could be cultural appropriation.
The idea of divine entities giving rewards to the faithful is fairly widespread. It also fits really well with the lore of D&D. For example almost all sailors give Umberlee her due even though they're often good aligned worshippers of other gods.
It's been awhile since I studied Greek Mythology but I seen to recall some cities and heroes being more closely tied to one diety. I think some even received gifts from one specific dirty during the tale
Regular ancient Greek and Roman peoples might not have selected a particular patron deity, but we don't actually have a lot of evidence to say that with absolute certainty, since there's only so much that can be determined from archaeology and all the documentary evidence comes from an extremely small and very privileged literate upper class. Moreover, even if records of actual religious practice existed in ancient writings, it's a good guess a lot of these would not have been preserved by the Christian and Muslim scribes who transmitted them to us in the first place. Myths and poems about ancient pagan gods could be tolerated but not details on how to worship them, so we only get some glimpses like animal sacrifice, some Roman ritual practices, etc. (The Norse myths get off far worse--we get a lot of stories about the gods and heroes but pretty much nothing on worship or devotional practices--Ahmad ibn-Fadlan's description of a Kievan Rus lord's funeral is about it.)
But that's all irrelevant, because the _heroes_ in the Greek and Roman mythological accounts absolutely had patrons, as did anyone who joined a cult of a particular god--the Eleusinian Mysteries devoted to Demeter and Persephone, the Cult of Isis, the Cult of Mithras--all full of members who devoted themselves to that particular patron. If you read _The Odyssey_ , it is clear that Athena is Odysseus' patron, and that he earns Poseidon's enmity early on by blinding his son Polyphemus. But pissing off Poseidon could be seen as an act of piety that earned him points with Athena since her rivalry with Poseidon was also accounted for in the ancient sources. The player characters in Theros are heroes, not random shepherds or weavers or stonemasons, and like ancient Greek heroes of myth, they also have patrons.